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 Big Brother (on CBS)
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Earthmother
Member
07-13-2002
| Tuesday, September 06, 2022 - 8:28 am 
It can't Dogdoc unless the people creating the policies are not afraid to stand up against the unfair practices. For all of the people who say "I don't do politics", that unfortunately is where it starts. The laws created by our leaders in Congress and a President willing to make those changes and have the courage to fight the backlash from those who are racist within the governing bodies of those individual systems, are where it starts.
We allow our government to drop the ball, which is usually due to pressure and money. They make laws and then NO one really follows up to make sure they are being followed. We have civil rights laws, but are they being followed, or expanded on? Where are the watchdogs? Trying to fix this by changing the minds of individual people is not ever going to fully work systematically, but we still need to keep trying. Our government continues to put band aides on the bullet holes, hoping that they won't be blamed for the bleed out. All the Menusha created in the halls of congress mean that these important life changing issues never get the time or effort to do any real good.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Tuesday, September 06, 2022 - 8:54 am
Here's an example, Dogdoc.
Education is clearly important in life success.
Schools are funded by property taxes (laws).
That means those in low income neighborhoods have less money for their schools.
POC disproportionately live in low income neighborhoods.
Is everyone in that neighborhood racist or biased? No. It's just *tradition* that property taxes pay for schools. Is every lawmaker racist or biased? No. But some of them refuse to change that tradition because of political backlash.
So, that's how a *system* is biased. One of our systems, how we fund education, disproportionately affects POC. And traditions/systems are very hard to change, especially one as entrenched as this one.
The only way to change it is to try and vote in (radical) politicians with new ideas, and enough of them to outvote other lawmakers.
It's not easy!
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Jimmer
Board Administrator
08-29-2000
| Tuesday, September 06, 2022 - 9:35 am
As another example, most people want the best for their kids. So in addition to the above, people in wealthy areas can donate more to their schools (computers, class trips, etc.). Wealthy people aren’t being racist donating to their kid’s school but that doesn’t change the fact that people in poorer areas (with more POC) can’t do that and therefore the wealthy kids have the opportunity to get a better education.
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Dogdoc
Member
09-29-2001
| Tuesday, September 06, 2022 - 10:05 am
Thank you for all your help everybody.
I just looked up a definition for racism
"Racism is embedded in ALL social institutions, structures and social relations within our society."
Yes, it may be systemic, but in ALL social institutions?
I just don't like the idea that ALL people are racist because society says so.
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Brenda1966
Member
07-02-2002
| Tuesday, September 06, 2022 - 11:00 am
That seems to be over extrapolating to suggest all people are racist. I've never seen where "society" says that.
All people have bias. It's innate. It's part of our nature to categorize things, and that includes people. It's how our brain processes information. So being aware of bias is very important in how we deal with others, how we hire others, how we interact with others, how we judge others.
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Earthmother
Member
07-13-2002
| Tuesday, September 06, 2022 - 11:29 am
Dogdoc I can't think of one of our government institutions that is not flawed, in a number of ways. The most obvious is inequality. SOCIETY is not the Government nor is it these systems, it is the people, the citizens, you and me, our communities, etc.these agencies are supposed to benefit all of us, we pay taxes for these systems to be fair. If the rules of those agencies are to slight one group of people over another. Black People are as much a part of our society as anyone else, so that's like saying they don't have a right to call out racism when they are living it.
AGAIN, NO ONE HAS SAID ALL PEOPLE ARE RACIST. All people do have bias, it may not be racial bias ,it could be religious bias, gender bias, etc. As a government agency those things should never be part of policy.
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Seamonkey
Moderator
09-07-2000
| Tuesday, September 06, 2022 - 1:46 pm
I am fortunate to have this local resource
https://www.ochumanrelations.org/
(they might have a list of referrals to local organizations in other areas. I'm sure they would love to help. )
and I've attended virtual events that they put on, including presentation of the Orange County Hate Crime reports, films, speakers (one was an expert on cult behavior).
They usually have breakout rooms in zoom and do a wonderful job of placing 6 diverse people with one of their employees into one room so I've been able to listen and speak of very painful subjects with people who are gay, straight, latino, asian, black, and various ages. Frustrations with friends and families.. one highschool girl from a Vietnamese family said that her grandparents and parents held views that were very biased and she would try to say how SHE felt but because of her age and their culture her views were rejected as irrelevant.
he quietly said it was better for her to remain silent.
Several of us spoke up to support her and urge to speak to those who would listen and try with her family. I told her that we needed to hear what younger people were thinking, a they are our future.
At the end they had us type a word in chat for how we were feeling and her word was "respected". That made my day.
I have also found some Instagram accounts where I can immerse in various views outside of my personal experience @Lakota_man who is in a medical field but posts a lot about how our indigenous people have been treated (and still are with current attempts to roll back treaties and make voting mmore difficult for those on reservations, as some states block vote by mail o technicalities). I knew some of the history but have learned so much.
I was at a jam last week put on by the dulcimer heritage group and one man played his mountain dulcimer and stated that it was one of two instruments created in america and what is the other one (Banjo) and I immediately thought.. but.. so at home I looked and besides percussion instruments which originate from many places, we have the native american song flute, which clearly pre-dated the creation of banjo and mountain dulcimer. I did mention it to the leader of that group later when we were in a zoom . and one of out guys who usually plays the flugelhorn for us, showed us his song flute!
But my friends often just don't want to hear about offensive lyrics, kids taken from their tribes and put in abusive schools where they were harmed if they spoke their own language, and many died.
Gus, yes, lots of unraveling to be done.
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Seamonkey
Moderator
09-07-2000
| Tuesday, September 06, 2022 - 1:51 pm
Oh I was going to say that since I'm a fan of some of the RHAP podcasts, and podcasters, they have a rather diverse group and some of them are quite articulate and heartfelt when the topic touches them especially. Yes they joke around often but I really have appreciated their input.
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Tiernet
Member
06-07-2004
| Tuesday, September 06, 2022 - 1:57 pm
To continue/piggyback on the society thing as it has evolved through the years. The easiest way forward is to assimilate to society.
Individualism is somewhat lost but if one does not assimilate then they are open to their uniqueness but also open to ignoring or ignorance. This may or may not include race.
There are certain cultures that have not assimilated but rely on family members, community members (neighborhoods that have a concentration of a particular culture) or other mechanisms to survive and are less dependent on the existing society constraints. But there are others that don't and have more issues in relating, coping and surviving.
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Lilfair
Member
07-09-2003
| Wednesday, September 07, 2022 - 10:57 am
Being an immigrant myself, I remember having to assimilate. We did a fine job but we also kept our culture from “the old country”
My parents in their 40s with 3 kids in hand took a transatlantic flight to a new country knowing only a few words of English…mostly food words.
My parents made a wonderful life for us here in The States. My parents loved this country and were very politically active. They passed down their love of country, even when things in the nation went bad.
I’m glad my parents didn’t live to see the 45th President.
Even though we assimilated to the culture my parents always championed the underdog, the discriminated upon. My mother had friends that were gay, before I even knew what gay was, she helped at a house that helped ladies of the knight get off the streets, was a big proponent of unions and was a union captain as was my father.
Basically assimilation doesn’t mean going along with injustices or turning a blind eye. Every culture can improve but it can’t improve without the difficulties going against the common grain.
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Bamagirl
Member
08-26-2012
| Wednesday, September 07, 2022 - 1:30 pm
Great post Lilfair! My Dad was Air Force for 22 years and he would have been sick knowing the 45th too. He was so proud of our country!
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Seamonkey
Moderator
09-07-2000
| Wednesday, September 07, 2022 - 2:34 pm
Thanks for that post, Lilfair. It sounds like a version of assimilation that worked well. And of course your family had a more recent experience.
Some assimilation, though, is so cruel and forced.
The indigenous people were to be wiped out, but guess what, in some places they fought back, so then it was literally wiping out that which sustained those people. Buffalo slaughtered, not used for food or hides, just mass slaughtered and piled up.. There are pictures.
Alaska, seals.. but that resource was taken.
Beavers.
And children forced into boarding schools. No problem learning English, but forcing them to never speak their own lang.
Native children were sold for $50, fate uncertain, farm labor likely, losing their own families.
Forced relocations from any usable land or potential for resources.
So founded on racism started as the U.S. wasn't even beyond colonies from England.
Australia, Canada.. similar actions vs indigenous populations.
Other states want to be smug about the south, slavery, but some northern states had higher numbers of slaves per capita than some southern states.
Here in California, southern, Orange County..
Well all of California had the Missions and again, they helped to decimate the native populations with disease, alcohol, forced religion, but more recently, we had Sundown towns which I just learned, burning of a Chinatown, just to mention a couple of early aggressions, and the Japanese being sent to internment camps.
From my sister in law I know her family history a bit. Her parents were Nisei, with their parents coming from Japan and Japan via Hawai'i, and after the war they assimilated. Did maintain some traditions, but no one in her generation speaks Japanese, all married outside the culture, and assimilation was considered the way to go. Her father had a book that I have about the history of the Japanese in Colorado and assimilation was a major theme.
My small city was founded by farmers, Japanese and Basque. One claim to fame was that our first mayor, Mr Kanno, was the first Japanese American mayor in the U.S., outside of Hawai'i.
But today (as in the past) we are seeing the cruel assimilation where black students (and adults) are forced into hairstyles because their natural hair is deemed "distracting". This is being used against native American male student currently if they want to wear traditional styles.
Yes, easier to hide in plain sight if you don't stand out. If you are black, you cannot hide that (mostly, and for those who could pass, at what cost?), You cannot hide being asian.
You cannot hide being a Muslim woman if you wear hijab. A Muslim friend at Curves, when I asked her how her family was doing after a mass shooting in So Cal where the perpetrators were Muslim an the woman wore hijab (scarf) and face cover. She said the men were doing better because the women with their scarves were easy to target. She would remove her scarf head covering and long outer coat to work out. The Curves owner was so supportive, so if a man came to the door to deliver mail or a package, she would intercept him at the door.
This was one time I was glad I took a chance and brought up a sensitive subject. I had thought they were at risk of backlash, but she let me realize that women were the easy targets.
Sorry, my mind runs on
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Lilfair
Member
07-09-2003
| Wednesday, September 07, 2022 - 2:47 pm
Yes, 100 percent a different story when you Assimilate into the United States when you are a blue eyed, blonde haired European.
The slaughter of indigenous people were atrocious and needs to be taught more realistically in school.
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Seamonkey
Moderator
09-07-2000
| Wednesday, September 07, 2022 - 10:54 pm
Yes, schools just haven't taught that much.. we moved here to California when I was 13 and I went to junior high for a bit over a year in Santa Ana, which was and still is our most diverse and large city. One assignment I was hit with immediately, I mean we were still in a motel until our furniture arrived for the house we had rented.. was to write a history of Santa Ana. I went to a local museum which actually had quite a bit about the indigenous people who had lived here, but I was dinged for not having enough personal stuff.. I mean how much does a 13 year old learn in 2 weeks while living in a motel, not a neighborhood. But not a word that there had been a Chinatown, there had been at least one Sundown town, that there had been anti asian, anti hispanic, anti black people here. Heck there were very few black people here, well no surprise.
Then I moved to Newport Beach which was not diverse at all. Well, our high school had recognized that there was a huge disparity in income, as we served students from several cities and so in the prior years the girls had actually created a dress code.. which did work. Black or navy blue sort pr jumper, white blouse.. Friday allowed colored blouse and once a month there was "civvie day". So yes, those more well off had leather purses and others had knockoffs, name brand hoodie sweaters vs knockoffs, etc. but we all looked the same and being a beach community, lots of long hair. So that showed some awareness, but still very little in the way of awareness and history class.. The American Pageant was very readable and all, but left out a lot..
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Seamonkey
Moderator
09-07-2000
| Thursday, September 08, 2022 - 4:47 am
Ohhh, per @Lakotalaw on Instagram, SS recently as the 1950s you could but an "Indian" child for $10 in South Dakota. 😥😥
Children were kidnapped from mothers.
They show a letter about a little boy who was kidnapped as an infant, sexually assaulted, then at age 4 sold for $10, put on an 18 hour bus ride, alone, with a sign and a sandwich. He was treated as a servant, but when his parents located him the courts sided with the adoptive "parents".
In 1978, the ICWA Indian Child Welfare Act was passed to prevent the high rate of removal of native children compared to other populations and tribes on reservations had more control over where the children went.
The current Supreme Court is cutrently looking into reversing this and other acts.
This makes me sick to my stomach.
We didn't learn anything like this in school.
Sorry to be a downer but this just sucks.
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Dogdoc
Member
09-29-2001
| Thursday, September 08, 2022 - 6:29 am
I remember a movie on tv that was a true story.
A White couple adopted a Native American orphan.
When the child was five, they found out the natural parent had not give the baby up. It had been stolen and sold to an adoption agency.
A judge ruled the child would go the the natural parents.
I felt bad for the child as she screamed and cried while being taken away from her family.
Then they showed her a week later, and she was happily playing in her new home.
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Tiernet
Member
06-07-2004
| Thursday, September 08, 2022 - 8:44 am
Continuing on the assimilation process/topic.
The thing about the native Indians or folks here before "America" they were invaded or taken over. So there really wasn't an assimilation, it was a forced situation as the examples given here show. Assimilation is applicable to those immigrating into America.
You can also create an argument for those who were brought over as slaves and other examples of forced entry.
Thanks for those providing examples.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Thursday, September 08, 2022 - 9:24 am
Then they showed her a week later, and she was happily playing in her new home.
That doesn't mean she doesn't have longlasting trauma. Kids are very good at masking their distress. People say they adapt, but trust me, it affects them. Long term.
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Earthmother
Member
07-13-2002
| Thursday, September 08, 2022 - 9:29 am
Not one of us in our senior society can give any REAL facts about our country's history. Those evils were kept from us. We were taught a bunch of BS that painted us to be the heroes of the entire world. We lauded the likes of Christopher Columbus, the Pilgrims and Junipero Serra who were sent here to protect and teach the poor uneducated savages.
Moving onto Slavery was not any better. We did not have one single POC in any of my classes until 1968. Is it any wonder that people who were poisoned with all this crap believe how they do?
The saving grace for me was going into teaching in an inner-city school. The vast majority of our student body were POC and immigrants all of them in a depressed socio-economic term we can all understand, dirt poor. We taught a much more truthful story of our history, but not nearly as much as we should have.
In my last few years of teaching, we had welcomed a POC as our President. My students were re-born and they dove into history and of course by that time we had the internet. Though our history books were still lacking detail, we had open conversations about true history. We still had to be careful, because we were fully integrated, and our biggest critics were...WHITE PARENTS.. Knowing the truth about our history frightened them, and how can the heroes of America now be the aggressors? Ten years later and here we are, book banning, fighting counterculture, etc.
At least a friend of mine still teaching said that they have lots and lots of books in their library that are geared toward, POC, mixed families, Gay acceptance, etc. She said they got a list of banned books. It was not sent as mandatory order, so they ordered the ones they didn't already have, to spite them. Love me some radical librarians.
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Earthmother
Member
07-13-2002
| Thursday, September 08, 2022 - 10:06 am
I fear that assimilation is and can be extremely traumatic to kids. Assimilation is conversion of culture. It has many benefits in the opening of doors if you are raised in the majority culture, but it also erases who you are. You lose your family culture and as one grows, they are confused and many times angry. Those who were forced into slavery had their own culture, family history and customs stolen from them. I realize the child may be offered a better life, but I also feel that if you take in a child, of a different ethnic background than your own you should have some idea of their past and their cultural norms and provide as much of that into your home as well. Everyone deserves their own identity.
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Lilfair
Member
07-09-2003
| Thursday, September 08, 2022 - 12:06 pm
Good points Earth. Your ethnicity matters when it comes to assimilation. Someone-a Christian coming from Western Europe will have have a different experience than someone coming from a country where melanin is in abundance will have a more difficult time or if your god isn’t called Jesus.
Hopefully as we progress as a species we will adapt to inclusion and acceptance of differing cultures.
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Dogdoc
Member
09-29-2001
| Thursday, September 08, 2022 - 12:39 pm
Karuuna, do you think the child would have been better off staying with the adoptive parents since she lived with them for 5 years?
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Thursday, September 08, 2022 - 1:06 pm
Dogdoc, honestly... yes. However I think the birth parents should have been introduced into her life as well, and after she had become accustomed to them, shared custody would have been the best way to go for her.
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Earthmother
Member
07-13-2002
| Thursday, September 08, 2022 - 1:54 pm
That would have been the humane thing to do Kar, for all involved. There are no winners in that situation unless you make sure everyone is working in the best interest of the child.
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Dogdoc
Member
09-29-2001
| Thursday, September 08, 2022 - 2:00 pm
I thought that at first, when I saw the girl screaming as they took her away.
Then she just seemed so happy with her birth parents.
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Lilfair
Member
07-09-2003
| Thursday, September 08, 2022 - 2:44 pm
The complications are innumerable.
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Seamonkey
Moderator
09-07-2000
| Thursday, September 08, 2022 - 3:31 pm
I remember that case, and the movie. At that time, I felt for the child, for both families. I looked at the difference in environments and I think I assumed that there was a reason the child was available for adoption.
Yes, agree with the long term trauma for the child.
Agree that in that case, the outcome should have left the child there but only with a great deal of contact with her birth family and heritage. (which Karuuna just said, but I agree!
In that case, I now realize that the tribe had undoubtedly been fighting forced assimilation, children put in boarding schools or sold, proceeded by having the whole tribe forced into a reservation, stripped of a way of life, of sustinence. So the "settlers" created the situation that then allowed those in powers to deem that indigenous people were "savages" and unfit to keep their own families.
So a situation was created, used against the victims.
This tribe, in the case of this child, may have been establishing precedent, yes, at the loss for this child, but I get it.
If they had walked away, that would show the world that they didn't care. And there were no made for tv movies from their side beamed into our living rooms.
Again, @Lakota_man and @lakotalaw are two excellent Instagram accounts. I am pretty sure that lakota_man is on Twitter, because his tweets have appeared in Dipo's thread in News and Views.
Earthmother, that is good that libraries have diverse information, but that is also under attack.
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Dogdoc
Member
09-29-2001
| Thursday, September 08, 2022 - 3:44 pm
Sea monkey, I am glad you remember it too. It was a while ago,
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Thursday, September 08, 2022 - 3:51 pm
Then she just seemed so happy with her birth parents.
Yeah, kids are happy sometimes with all kinds of people. That doesn't mean they feel *secure*... and if they have been uprooted like that, it's not likely that they do. It can cause all kinds of issues that don't preclude some moments of happy playing.
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Skydiver6
Member
07-21-2006
| Thursday, September 08, 2022 - 4:48 pm
First I want to thank you all for your heartfelt posts. It's so nice to see so many people who understand and that are educated on the subject. I love your librarian, Earthmother.
On the topic of adoption and kids being placed with people from different cultures I've recently been learning a lot about that and about adoption trauma. Somehow in Tiktok I liked one video about it and soon I was getting so many people, mostly adoptees talking about their situations and their feelings and all the trauma involved even when adopted as an infant. At first I was shocked and surprised by some of the stuff and not that sure what to think but as I've learned more it's changed my thoughts and feelings on many adoptions.
And on NPR yesterday I heard about a few people who had moved from the US to Ghana and how much they loved it with everyone looking like them and feeling so accepted and beautiful and proud of their hair and skin color. It was very interesting.
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Skydiver6
Member
07-21-2006
| Thursday, September 08, 2022 - 4:57 pm
I don't use Instagram much but I'm looking to see if there is a Lakota Man or law on there. Neither of their names are Lance I hope.
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Seamonkey
Moderator
09-07-2000
| Thursday, September 08, 2022 - 5:13 pm
He doesn't list a name, like Lance. Just that he is Oglala Lakota, ives in Los Angeles (he's in a medical field) and is enrolled at Pine Ridge, S.D.
He lists his twitter as lakotaman with no underscore
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Jimmer
Board Administrator
08-29-2000
| Thursday, September 08, 2022 - 5:20 pm
Yeah, kids are happy sometimes with all kinds of people. That doesn't mean they feel *secure*... and if they have been uprooted like that, it's not likely that they do. It can cause all kinds of issues that don't preclude some moments of happy playing.
It makes me think of pictures (hey I am a photographer). Pictures are literally milliseconds in time. They show one instant moment but that isn't necessarily representative of the entire thing. A video isn't milliseconds but it is similar. One moment laughing (or crying for that matter) doesn't reflect a life, as much as we may be tempted to think so.
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Seamonkey
Moderator
09-07-2000
| Thursday, September 08, 2022 - 5:21 pm
Lakotalaw is the Lakota People's Law Project. Not sure if they are on other SM but probaby.
THey have links of interest and it seems the effort to reverse the ICWA (Brackeen vs Haaland, Haaland bing Deb Haaland, our U.S. Secretary of the Interior), is lead by the oil companies and the State of Texas, and this is the first step in efforts to eliminate tribal sovereignty.
action.lakotalaw.org
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