| Author |
Message |
Scooterrific
Member
07-07-2005
| Friday, April 29, 2022 - 4:47 pm 
And I do agree with you, Jonathan wasn't listening as well as he should have, he does have a lot to learn, but I believe he was genuinely sorry for saying what he said, as you can see him hugging/holding Drea afterwards.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Friday, April 29, 2022 - 4:51 pm
Scooter, respectfully, I am willing to take them at their word, which I quoted. I think it's disrespectful to tell someone that they didn't mean what they said. And that's exactly why Drea ended with the comment that she did.
As a friend of mine, who does DIE (diversity, equity, inclusion) training for groups and corporations, said: people who have never been historically marginalized have no business telling people who have how to feel.
And yes, I think Jonathon learned something, but only because he *believed* and *heard* them. 
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Jimmer
Board Administrator
08-29-2000
| Friday, April 29, 2022 - 4:54 pm
So just to clarify what Maryanne (and I believe Kar as well) is saying is that being subconsciously biased and being racist are two different things and a person can be subconsciously biased against black people without being racist?
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Jimmer
Board Administrator
08-29-2000
| Friday, April 29, 2022 - 4:55 pm
People don’t mean what they say all the time on Survivor. There’s nothing unusual about that at all. That’s how the game works.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Friday, April 29, 2022 - 5:06 pm
a person can be subconsciously biased against black people without being racist?
We are all hard-wired to be "groupist", that is we affiliate with those who feel more familiar to us, and are more likely to have positive feelings toward them, and negative feelings toward those who are not. It's the way the brain makes shortcuts to make life easier to predict.
That's a big difference from being consciously racist and explicit discrimination.
One is: I like this person better, while my "gut" says maybe I shouldn't trust this one (who happens to be black). The other is saying "he's black so he can't be trusted". The second is racist. The first is not.
This is how the terms are currently defined by those most learned in these areas. And I applaud Maryann for being able to speak to this so profoundly.
Casual definitions are interesting, and you may want to call it all racist. But it's not helpful, and it's not best practice when trying to honestly understand those who have indeed been historically marginalized. If you really do want to understand, that is.
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Legalboxer
Member
11-17-2003
| Friday, April 29, 2022 - 5:15 pm
I have cited this comic about tone policing in several of my writings on racism and ableism…it’s powerful and informative…as long as you scroll through the whole comic. Especially important to understand Drea’s viewpoint and emotions.
https://everydayfeminism.com/2015/12/tone-policing-and-privilege/?fbclid=IwAR0KCOW4buaxMjVYQj0WFhel51UaEvxD8l57lKXezSpIebNr-DbuL_We_y4
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Jimmer
Board Administrator
08-29-2000
| Friday, April 29, 2022 - 5:18 pm
Thank you for clarifying that Kar. It is very nuanced.
With respect to my other point, I don’t think it is unreasonable at all to question players motives in a game where lying and manipulation is paramount.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Friday, April 29, 2022 - 6:14 pm
That's a great resource, Legal!
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Jimmer
Board Administrator
08-29-2000
| Friday, April 29, 2022 - 6:17 pm
If you really do want to understand, that is.
I think everyone posting here is sincere and does want to understand.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Friday, April 29, 2022 - 6:17 pm
FWIW, I think Jonathon is a great example of someone who is implicitly biased, while not being consciously racist (and would never want to be either). When he immediately stopped listening to Drea and instead turned it to being all about him, and then calling her "aggressive." There was nothing aggressive about her behavior, at all. That's why you saw the very shocked look on Chanelle's face. It's a stereotype of the angry black woman.
Do I think Jonathon is racist? No, I think he just hasn't had the opportunity to question himself and think deeply about his own subconscious feelings and thoughts.
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Jimmer
Board Administrator
08-29-2000
| Friday, April 29, 2022 - 6:20 pm
I think many people who are sincere are offended at the thought they are racist and don’t understand the difference between subconscious bias (which everyone has including black people) and racism and feel hurt that they may be seen as racist.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Friday, April 29, 2022 - 6:51 pm
Less offense, more listening.
Does everyone here want to understand? I'm not sure about that. I think some people *may* just want to be right, or don't want to consider the idea that they may well be unconsciously biased (because they are offended), or don't care enough to think about it deeply. They have the right to make those choices.
Jonathon was able to bracket his offense long enough to hear. Hopefully, with reflection, he'll have a deeper understanding when this is over.
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Scooterrific
Member
07-07-2005
| Friday, April 29, 2022 - 7:10 pm
I'm sorry Kar, but this is an extreme game of hunger, sleeplessness, exhaustion, social deprivation, physical and mental tolls.
I'm not defending Jonathon, if he is really like this, but I don't believe he is. I think he's thinking about the game that he's signed up to be on, and took offense to being "inferred" as a racist, and I would probably be the same.
Also, he was in shock to see Rocks sitting there, too, so he's got all of that going on in his head.
You have so much compassion for Drea and Maryann, but you and so many others don't consider the other thought processes that are going on.
From my seat, it seems people just automatically go to "oh they're trying to vote out all of the black people", when as a viewer at home, we *should* know that's not true.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Friday, April 29, 2022 - 7:29 pm
Actually, historically, it is true that they "vote out all the black people" in Survivor... more often than not.
And where do I not have compassion for others? I said Jonathon was at first in the wrong, and then able to bracket his offense and hear what they were saying. I thought he grew thru that experience, but may have more growing to do. That seems fair? It seems like we agree on him if you look at all my posts about him. I said he was someone that probably does not want to be racist but may not be aware of his own subconscious bias.
I think you are not considering the thought processes Drea and Maryann had going on. You blame them for jumping to a conclusion, and say they should have waited to find out why Rocks was voted out before saying anything... but they had to assess their own vulnerability at THAT tribal council. They couldn't wait. They had to figure out right then what they were going to do. And it was fair for them to be worried about what was happening ESPECIALLY because Rocks was a surprise eviction. -- from where they sat, hungry, tired, exhausted -- why wouldn't they think it might have something to do with something that had been historically true on Survivor? And especially because before the other tribe went to tribal it was pretty clear they were voting out someone else (Romeo)? Where's the compassion for their position?
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Juju2bigdog
Member
10-27-2000
| Friday, April 29, 2022 - 10:10 pm
Jonathan and Mike are definitely going to come out of this experience as changed men. Jonathan started to change DURING tribal council, and some of us could see it. If he doesn't win and gets to Ponderosa, he will return from this experience with so much more social and self awareness. He (or the television editors, LOL) has me convinced
he is a good soul.
And let me get back to Maryanne. That young woman has some powerful instincts, insight, and ability to express truth that few people of any age ever master. I was sort of team Maryanne from the start, but it was in spite of what could have been her perhaps inflated self-confidence. Even if she is over-hyping now, she is not wrong. Go Maryanne!!
These are my impressions, and this is television after all, so maybe I am simply behaving as the television reality manipulators want me to behave.
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Seamonkey
Moderator
09-07-2000
| Friday, April 29, 2022 - 11:44 pm
Yes, they made an assumption about why Rocksroy was sitting on the jury and even if they could have asked him, he likely did not really know at that time. They didn't know about him wanting an all male alliance and that had not set well with Hai and others.
And for them it didn't actually matter WHY Rocksroy was sitting there, but THAT he was sitting there and Drea needed to use her idol and since Maryanne had been TOLD she was the backup vote, SHE had to use her idol.
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Lakecat
Member
10-01-2006
| Saturday, April 30, 2022 - 5:43 am
My TV was down on Wed which of course is my favorite TV night. I missed this episode, I guess I’ll have to figure out how to see it.
I’m certainly getting a different opinion on other TV message boards about the tribal council meeting than I am here.
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Dogdoc
Member
09-29-2001
| Saturday, April 30, 2022 - 7:54 am
Hi Lakecat, what are some of the other boards saying?
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Jimmer
Board Administrator
08-29-2000
| Saturday, April 30, 2022 - 8:29 am
Actually, historically, it is true that they "vote out all the black people" in Survivor... more often than not.
I’m not claiming this is untrue but I’d like to see some factual evidence of this. As I posted previously, the number of black people winning Survivor is not out of line with the population demographics of the U.S.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Saturday, April 30, 2022 - 8:58 am
From 2020:
https://www.truedorktimes.com/s40/recaps/bipoc-stats.htm
Fans and contestants have noticed for a while that when it comes time for a tribe to vote the first time, BIPOC contestants almost always seem to end up at the top of the target list. This is not necessarily due to overt racism, but it may be a symptom of unconscious bias, especially if the tribe has mostly White contestants, and just one or a few contestants of color.
https://www.realityblurred.com/realitytv/2016/10/survivor-racial-bias-early-votes/
Of the first four people voted out of Survivor Millennials vs. Gen X, three of them were women of color: Rachel, Mari, and Lucy. Another woman, CeCe, has been the target of votes at each of the three Tribal Councils her tribe attended.
This pattern—non-white players being the first targets of their tribe—is not new. In fact, it’s increasing. Unofficial Survivor historian Jeff Pittman recently looked at the data over 33 seasons, and votes against people of color at their first Tribal Council have been increasing since season 21 in 2010, Survivor Nicaragua:
https://twitter.com/truedorktimes/status/781689424107233280/
From 2016, but it makes the point:
There are more charts at that link, and more data.
Finally, I would say, Drea actually SAID this at tribal, that black contestants are historically voted out first, so whether accurate or not, it was the understanding that she was acting on.
Hopefully this is enough data. Which you could have found easily on your own. 
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Dogdoc
Member
09-29-2001
| Saturday, April 30, 2022 - 9:22 am
Well, as long as we proclaim 'Systemic Racism' and insist it is true, racism will continue.
If little children are taught in school that Whites have all the advantages and those of color must struggle, racism will continue.
When these opinions are forced on us, we will never think for ourselves.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Saturday, April 30, 2022 - 9:52 am
I think systemic racism IS true. I tend to believe those who have studied it, and have been victims of it, and I've certainly witnessed it.
It's simply a fact that school taxes are one of the biggest problems. Schools are funded by real estate taxes. That means if you live in an affluent neighborhood, your school will have more money, than if you live in an impoverished neighborhood. That's just objectively true.
It is also objectively true that lower income neighborhoods have higher ethnic concentrations. This was ENGINEERED by white people with money by the way.
The first part of this report outlines why all Americans should care about black–white residential segregation: the perpetuation of an opportunity gap between blacks and whites. The second part delineates the ways in which black–white segregation is rooted primarily in deliberate government policies enacted over generations.
https://tcf.org/content/report/attacking-black-white-opportunity-gap-comes-residential-segregation/?session=1
So, if presenting the truth to people is bad, I'm guilty. And proud.
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Kappy
Member
06-28-2002
| Saturday, April 30, 2022 - 10:06 am
Has Survivor ever split up the final 10 before when it came to voting? And why now? I know it's been done pre-merge but I don't remember it happening this late before and how different might it have been if all 10 were involved in voting for both eliminations? My gut says both Tori and Rocksroy would still have been voted out, one for her ability to win immunity and the other for his bossiness. Just because a few were insistent on Romeo going doesn't mean it would have happened.
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Jimmer
Board Administrator
08-29-2000
| Saturday, April 30, 2022 - 10:09 am
Hopefully this is enough data. Which you could have found easily on your own.
Normally, when someone makes a statement, the onus is on them to support what they are saying.
For example, you asked for the source of my statement about Survivor winners, which I happily provided. Dare I suggest that you could have figured that out easily on your own as well.
Thank you for the information.
Some of the information you provided is about first tribal councils. It's interesting that it doesn't seem to have affected their ability to win. Possibly a testament to their ability to overcome adversity and the idea that initial biases can be overcome (though they shouldn't have to be overcome of course).
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Jimmer
Board Administrator
08-29-2000
| Saturday, April 30, 2022 - 10:20 am
Sometime when I have time, I'll put up all the banner pictures in one thread and we can see visually who was voted out and when.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Saturday, April 30, 2022 - 10:20 am
I made the statement because I was *repeating* what Drea had said, which was in the transcript I provided.
and Drea says it's just a fact that a lot of times minorities get kicked off first in this game
But you have time for this? But couldn't just look it up yourself. Okay. 
Sometime when I have time, I'll put up all the banner pictures in one thread and we can see visually who was voted out and when.
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Jimmer
Board Administrator
08-29-2000
| Saturday, April 30, 2022 - 10:22 am
No need to go there. I was just being nice. I'm very busy at the moment. That's why I said sometime when I have time.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Saturday, April 30, 2022 - 10:28 am
Well, okay then.
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Lakecat
Member
10-01-2006
| Saturday, April 30, 2022 - 10:41 am
Dogdoc mostly ppl were saying that Drea’ claims were not warranted because there are only two white ppl left
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Saturday, April 30, 2022 - 10:50 am
And this is why we have a racism problem in the US.... because everyone "non-white" is apparently the same.... (hint: they aren't).
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Dogdoc
Member
09-29-2001
| Saturday, April 30, 2022 - 11:11 am
Thank you Lakecat.
I haven't talked to you in a long time!
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Lakecat
Member
10-01-2006
| Saturday, April 30, 2022 - 3:02 pm
The other board is saying Drea wants it both ways. Last week she votes out Chanell and this week she’s saying that the black players are being discriminated against.
Hello Dogdoc, I don’t come here often anymore. every time I post, even if it’s consecutively, I have to log in again, so I just don’t post much. I know I’m doing something wrong.
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