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| Author |
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Dogdoc
Member
09-29-2001
| Friday, October 11, 2024 - 1:08 pm 
Thank you jimmer.
Kar, I saw an angry pug
You saw a frightened pug.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Friday, October 11, 2024 - 1:18 pm
Dog, that dog was screaming in fear, and desperately trying to pull away. It had whale eye, a stiff body and pulled back ears - these are all signs of fear. An angry dog growls or bites.
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Jimmer
Board Administrator
08-29-2000
| Friday, October 11, 2024 - 1:46 pm
We know that the pug is not being physically harmed. However, he believes that he is being harmed or could be harmed.
Similarly, the person may truly believe that they will never get another job.
To quote myself:
quote:I guess my point is that it is all too easy to minimize another person's or an animal's fears. We shouldn't do that with dogs or with people.
I'm not sure why you think that I am arguing when I'm agreeing with you?
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Friday, October 11, 2024 - 2:02 pm
As you noted, being a drama queen is generally thought of as overreacting. It is derogatory. The pug is not being a drama queen, it is genuinely frightened.
You quoted me, therefore it appeared you were replying to me, and arguing with me.
I agree that using the terminology drama queen, or being dramatic is not generally useful. Just like in this case. It is diminishing.
Except in the case of some reality stars I can think of. 
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Jimmer
Board Administrator
08-29-2000
| Friday, October 11, 2024 - 2:10 pm
I didn’t quote you. I quoted the dictionary definition that you provided.
Just because I’m replying to one of your comments it doesn’t automatically mean I’m disagreeing. I reply to comments that I agree with as well. 
LOL about the reality stars. I was trying to make that same point earlier about some people who are deliberately and intentionally dramatic to achieve a certain goal or appearance. They are being drama queens because they are acting.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Friday, October 11, 2024 - 2:32 pm
Okay, Jimmer.
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Jimmer
Board Administrator
08-29-2000
| Friday, October 11, 2024 - 5:19 pm
I’m still just trying to imagine the thousands of dogs that Dogdoc has seen throughout her career as a Veterinarian.
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Seamonkey
Moderator
09-06-2000
| Friday, October 11, 2024 - 6:08 pm
OK, I had to watch. It wasn't funny and the human wasn't trying that hard to calm the dog.
I definitely read unhappiness and being pushed too far
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Dogdoc
Member
09-29-2001
| Saturday, October 12, 2024 - 12:35 am
Jimmer, I have seen a lot of dogs..
We gave a nail trim with every exam, so I have done plenty of nail trims.
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Seamonkey
Moderator
09-06-2000
| Saturday, October 12, 2024 - 6:40 am
That is a good deal, Dogdoc, and probably brought in dogs where people didn't know they needed an exam, but the nail trim brought them.
My doctor says when he can give the flu shots, that can bring in patients once a year and many times he has been able to catch a serious problem.
So he isn't a fan of pharmacies doing routine shots, but knows they can reach more people.
When I volunteered at the Irvine Animal Care Center, they gave lifetime nail trims for cats adopted there, which some local people used.
Not sure if that applied to dogs, as I worked in the cat section. Also might have stopped with pandemic.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Saturday, October 12, 2024 - 9:51 am
Things have changed in the veterinarian industry and the way we understand the minds of dogs. That is how it should be, as the article I posted above, by a veterinarian who has also seen thousands of dogs, noted. What was acceptable 20 or even 10 years ago may not be acceptable now. Same with dog training. The US tends to be very far behind in humane practices. For example, in many countries prong collars and shock collars are against the law, but in the US, many old school trainers still use them - even tho the veterinary association condemns their use, as do most training certification agencies.
As the saying goes "when you know better, you can do better." However, many don't want to know better, they just resist change.
There are vets offices around me that will still force themselves on dogs and restrain them for nail trims. They have to weigh the psychological trauma v the owner's lack of proper care to do what's best for the dog. Long nails are a health risk. Many groomers do the same, unfortunately. 
That said, our rescue uses several vets and none of them will force a nail trim. They will sedate and then trim if it's necessary. Then they hand the owner a card for a qualified trainer.
Even when my female dog has to go in for an anal gland expression, they use numbing sprays, and lots of distraction with whipped cream. They do everything they can to make it as rewarding as possible, as it is a very painful/uncomfortable procedure. Because of that, she has become LESS reactive to that procedure over time. That's how it should work.
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Dogdoc
Member
09-29-2001
| Saturday, October 12, 2024 - 11:29 am
Karuuna, one of the best things that happened to my patients, is that early on, I joined the AHVMA (American Holistic Veterinary Medical Association).
I went to the yearly conventions.
We were trained to think about the animal when doing any procedure.
We studied such things as homeopathy, kinesiology, animal communication, massage.
A Native American taught us his healing methods.
We were accused by regular veterinarian as depriving the animals of the correct medications and therapies. One even said "How do you sleep at night?"
Dogs have spoken to me. One even told me about his bladder stone, before he was even on the table.
I did everything I could to be a better veterinarian.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Saturday, October 12, 2024 - 11:47 am
I'm certainly glad you did all that. But I'm still befuddled on how you saw an angry dog when the dog was clearly terrified by any measure. He was literally screaming in fear, and his body language said so in many ways. An angry dog growls, barks, snaps and eventually bites. It doesn't rear back with whale eyes, stiff flat ears, and scream. Those are fear signs.
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Dogdoc
Member
09-29-2001
| Saturday, October 12, 2024 - 12:02 pm
You win.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Saturday, October 12, 2024 - 12:34 pm
It's not about winning for me, and I'm saddened by the fact that you think a discussion is a competition.
I just care very much about animals, which is why I do what I do (same for you I imagine). And when I see something that clearly goes against my own training in reading body language (and you have to do a lot of it with rescue dogs, for your safety, for their safety and the safety of sending them to new homes to be sure everyone will be safe), it bugs me. While your education has been more diverse, mine is very focused on reading body language to be sure we are training in a fear-free manner, and in placing them in homes where all are safe (resident animals, humans and the new dog).
My goal here has been to educate, not compete. I just was sad that anyone would find a frightened dog to be funny. I feel the same about those stupid videos where they have you scare your kids. It's all unempathetic, and yeah, it bothers me.
All in all, I'm glad it provoked a discussion about it, and whether people agree with me or not, maybe people will take another think about these kinds of things.
Be well, Dogdoc.
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Dogdoc
Member
09-29-2001
| Saturday, October 12, 2024 - 12:47 pm
You too, Karuuna.
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Strategist
Member
07-01-2014
| Saturday, October 19, 2024 - 4:22 am
This discussion was good. Both Karuuna and Dogdoc have a lot of experience with animals.
I hope that we can now all bring more empathy to how we perceive living beings when we see these types of clips on social media.
At times any animal can appear fearful, angry, funny, or dramatic depending on how we want to see them. Often, they are doing these behaviors to try to express their needs to us. The challenge is to figure out why they are doing these things...often we find out that it's because of something we are doing to them and not the other way around!
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Saturday, October 19, 2024 - 9:28 am
Thank you Strategist. While I agree that our personal perceptions will influence the emotions we place on animals, there is in fact an entire science around understanding their body language. That's far more reliable than our own perceptions. I had no idea how complex it could be until I got into rescue, altho back when I was working with rescue horses, I had an intuitive feel. My work with dogs, oddly, was not so intuitive, which is why I took several classes that also involved looking at hundreds of videos and being "graded" on how well I read the dogs on them.
It can still be a challenge, but I have a pack of experts in the field I can appeal to if I am confused about any particularly dog.
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Strategist
Member
07-01-2014
| Saturday, October 19, 2024 - 1:34 pm
I had two rescue dogs that did not get along at all. Gracie was an athlete with a great deal of energy and was always shaking it off around her sister. Kellie was the exact opposite and wanted only to laze around and could not stand all that bouncing around.
Because this is the funny stuff thread, I'll just say that we had an apple tree and we used to throw apples for Gracie to run and catch. She would bring them back over and over until our arms ached. Kellie just waddled over to the first apple we threw, plopped down and proceeded to eat her way through it.
Gracie Relaxing
Kellie Exercising
Here's a lesson we learned. We loved both equally, but Gracie seemed to need (and got) a lot more attention than Kellie. Both dogs struggled to enjoy each other when we first got them. As we observed them, we learned to understand that Kellie (the plopper) was actually the "top dog", but did not have the athletic ability to challenge her sister (the athlete). After that, we started to give them equal time and everything changed.
Life after WE understood THEM!
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Saturday, October 19, 2024 - 2:28 pm
That's awesome!
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Naja
Member
06-28-2003
| Saturday, October 19, 2024 - 2:36 pm
So wonderful
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Jimmer
Board Administrator
08-29-2000
| Saturday, October 19, 2024 - 2:38 pm
Very cute!
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Strategist
Member
07-01-2014
| Saturday, October 19, 2024 - 5:51 pm
LOL Gracie still looks wild on the bales of hay.
Kellie never got much energy, but she was happier.
Here they are paddling in the canoe. You can guess who's who 
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Juju2bigdog
Member
10-26-2000
| Saturday, October 19, 2024 - 9:44 pm
Hilarious posts, Strategist! And the photos! I laughed out loud for more than a minute. Most would not even notice the second dog in the boat, had we not read the captions and photos in order.
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Naja
Member
06-28-2003
| Thursday, November 07, 2024 - 7:13 am
I follow this channel on youtube and it's hilarious. This guy (RxCKSTxR Comedy Voiceover) takes videos of pets from youtube and puts voices to animals. Today's is pretty funny.
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/TBi3OrxthR4
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Jimmer
Board Administrator
08-29-2000
| Thursday, November 07, 2024 - 1:10 pm
That is funny. His timing is perfect! 😂
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