| Author |
Message |
Sunshyne4u
Member
06-17-2003
| Sunday, April 04, 2010 - 10:50 pm 
Once you're "saved," as they're saying Dean is, then why would God abandon him.
Saved from Hell, Dean has never gone thru anything similar to salvation as per Biblical description. it is stated that God will never leave you IF you follow the rules. there are a number of places in the Bible which talk about christians backsliding and then their prayers fall on deaf ears.
I am not posting this as a nitpicker but there are some churches which ignore those verses since it involves following rules. Some of the modern churches are more concerned with vague concepts and "we just have to love each other and thats good enough" concepts.
Biblically its written that Salvation isnt like a 'get out of jail for free' card.
BUT back to the show, i didnt like this episode's feel. i hope the next few get back to the tongue in cheek humor that we like.
I have emptied out my brain and chose to watch this show like it is a Vampire movie or Zombie movie.
|
Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Monday, April 05, 2010 - 12:53 am
"saying the words Christian Mythology is deeply offensive to people who believe in christianity. it is very disrespectful to blatantly call someone's belief in their truth Nothing but a myth."
I have the same right as anyone else to believe what I want and it's offensive for anyone to imply that I must defer to their beliefs while they dismiss mine.
I think it's very offensive and disrespectful for someone to dismiss my truth while expecting me to cater to theirs. That's a double standard that I do not accept.
I'm very sorry if anyone was offended by my honest beliefs. It was not my intent to offend anyone when I stated my own personal views, but I must stand by my remarks because that's what I honestly believe.
----------------
As for "Supernatural"....my point was that it's a fictional story whose writers can make up anything they want or even re-interpret religious works as they desire, because it's a work of fiction, not a documentary about theology. I respect their right to tell whatever plot or story they want. It is, after all, just a supernatural/horror TV series.
|
Stormie
Member
03-01-2007
| Monday, April 05, 2010 - 3:34 am
Supernatural is science fiction and has no bearing in reality, religion, or theology. I like this show, it's fun and entertaining, a little gross at times, but fun to watch. Mindless fun, means nothing.
About the mother, I was thinking it was Zacharia (the bald angel) that did something to her. Didn't Dean say something to that effect?
I thought maybe there was more to Joshua, why else would Zacharia listen to him if there weren't. I thought maybe all of what he said was a test for Castiel, then Dean, and they both made a mistake giving up so quickly, although I realize they had been through so much. I hope Sam picks up the necklace, someone has to not give up hope. On the other hand, maybe it was an illusion for Sam, so he would bring the pendant to the darkside--hope not.
I think this season has more to do with the brothers and their fight to stay true to themselves, rather than give in to the desires of satan and Michael. If they give in, then many will die and probably every thing they worked so hard for will be for nothing. And I thought their trip down memory lane was suppose to help them remember all that they'd been through, so they could continue on, not sure. I loved seeing Pamela and Ash, it was interesting how Ash didn't find their father, maybe he's not dead.
|
Ahnicka
Member
08-08-2007
| Monday, April 05, 2010 - 8:46 am
I didn't mean for my observations to start a dispute or make this into some sort of Biblical debate.
SanFran, you didn't step on my toes, I'm fine with how anyone chooses to believe or not believe. I just feel that despite it being science fiction or however one wants to view this show, that episode can be viewed as disrespectful. I do have to agree with Sunshyne that to some people calling their beliefs mythology can be offensive as well, the same way as if someone claimed your atheist position was irrelevant or ignorant. I don't feel that way of course, I'm just saying you may not like that so much either if someone did that, so I can see Sunshyne's point. I also don't feel Sunshyne said or made any inference in her post that you don't have the right to believe in what you want and express it if you want, or that she had any disregard for your beliefs, nor that you had to defer to someone elses beliefs while dismissing your own. I'm not sure where that came from, but I don't see that in her post at all.
Yes, producers have the right to do what they want in a show, but sometimes I think things can get a bit offensive which is why there are sometimes groups/organizations that speak up against it. For instance, I've seen how passionate you get in the other side of the forum about homosexual issues and those in the world who don't agree with it (politics, news, etc.), so would you feel the same way about a show that bashed homosexuality, called it names, and said they're choosing to be this or that? Would you not find it disrespectful or offensive if they completely misrepresented the homosexual culture, lifestyle, and actions in a show (not saying that it probably already doesn't happen, but do you care for it)? Slightly different situation, but the point is would you say oh it's just a show, and say it's not disrespectful and not offensive, that they have the right to portray homosexuals how they want? Sure they'd have the right, but is it offensive and disrespectful, IMO I think it would be.
Sunshyne, due to this last episode I took it that Dean is supposed to be saved, because the man said something like "Dean, God has saved you," or something to that effect. So, I took it as more than just from hell, but I could be completely off-base because I'm getting a little confused by the show these days.
ETA: Oh and correction to my April 02, 2010 - 10:51 am post, I meant to say Jesus is all about sacraficing for God's creation, not sacraficing His creation. It was a typo, I hope it didn't offend anyone.
|
Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Monday, April 05, 2010 - 10:36 am
Please reread my posts and insert this definition where I used the word "mythology" and you should be able to see that I was not trying to be disrespectful:
---------
myth [mith] Show IPA
–noun
1. a traditional or legendary story, usually concerning some being or hero or event, with or without a determinable basis of fact or a natural explanation, esp. one that is concerned with deities or demigods and explains some practice, rite, or phenomenon of nature.}
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/myth
---------
Maybe those who think my objective use of the word, "mythology" was "offensive" are just being "defensive".
|
Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Monday, April 05, 2010 - 10:50 am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_mythology
|
Hermione69
Member
07-23-2002
| Monday, April 05, 2010 - 10:51 am
I miss this show!
|
Ahnicka
Member
08-08-2007
| Monday, April 05, 2010 - 11:09 am
Sanfran, please let me clarify, I don't at all think you were trying to be disrespectful. My point was that I can see how some might find the use of the word toward their beliefs as offensive, but I don't think you were trying to be disrespectful at all.
Referring to someone's beliefs - which is a part of their lifestyle - as a legendary story concerned with deities or demigods can be just as offensive as saying someone's gay lifestyle is a myth and all in their head, or as disrespectful as calling it an abomination and claiming the homosexual lifestyle has no legitimate basis. Believers don't view their faith as a story with fake gods, no moreso than homosexuals believe their lifestyle is irrelevant and undeserving of equality. Again, I'm not saying I agree with that, but I'm trying to provide a perspective from an angle that I know you feel extremely passionate about, because that's basically how a believer of a faith would possibly take your definition, just how you would take such a statement about your lifestyle.
I don't think anyone on here was being defensive, well maybe your response comes off a little as defending because I didn't see anyone say you couldn't have your atheist beliefs or had to defer to others beliefs, and again with the definitions and links and inferring that others are defensive, but I don't at all think you were trying to be offensive; however, it doesn't mean that it can't be interpreted that way by some. IMO, I thought initially that you were just providing another perspective along with others who posted that didn't think it was a big deal, which I appreciate because I certainly don't want to think of Supernatural as flipping believers the finger. However, I stick by my belief that the last episode can be interpreted by some as offensive or disrespectful. I remember someone else mentioned something similar a while back ago on this thread, but I didn't see it that way until now. All that said, I still like the show and I'm sure it'll all come together to make sense in the end.
|
Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Monday, April 05, 2010 - 12:27 pm
"Christian Mythology" is an objective term. There is no need to take that term as a personal attack on the christian religion. It's not like I called christianity an "abomination" or anything.
" I didn't see anyone say you couldn't have your atheist beliefs or had to defer to others beliefs"
I misspoke. What I meant is that I was being expected to defer to an offended christian's subjective reaction to a term that I honestly see as accurate and objective. I should be allowed to use my own interpretation of what "christian mythology" means rather than defer to an offended christian's subjective view of what it means.
If "Supernatural" isn't a perfect example of a fictional interpretation of "christian mythology", I don't know what is.
I don't mean to offend, but I have no control over how others choose to mischaracterize the meaning of my words.
|
Stormie
Member
03-01-2007
| Monday, April 05, 2010 - 12:37 pm
I miss talking about the show.
|
Ahnicka
Member
08-08-2007
| Monday, April 05, 2010 - 12:56 pm
What Supernatural is, is perhaps a perfect example of fictional mythology, not "Christian mythology" because to a Christian there is no such thing as the latter. If you're calling a Christian's view subjective, then that would make your view subjective as well.
Touche; just as you have no control how you "choose" to mischaracterize others meanings (including politics & news) of their words when it comes to homosexuality, or how you mischaracterize deference thru your perception when there is none. I'll look forward to now seeing this same "understanding" on the other side of the board when speaking of your passionate subject.
Stormie, my apologies for derailing the thread. I'm back on track now, my posts will be about the show from here on.
|
Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Monday, April 05, 2010 - 1:16 pm
"What Supernatural is, is perhaps a perfect example of fictional mythology, not "Christian mythology" because to a Christian there is no such thing as the latter."
You're saying there is no such thing as a traditional or legendary christian story, concerning a being or hero (God, Jesus) or event (resurrection, etc...), with or without a determinable basis of fact or a natural explanation (miracles), esp. one that is concerned with deities (god) and explains some practice, rite (prayer), or phenomenon of nature (origin of man)?
The above was taken from the definition of "mythology" that I posted.
The issue that came up was over the definition of an objective term, not an attack on christianity. Check the wikipedia link I posted if you want to understand what I was actually referring to.
|
Stormie
Member
03-01-2007
| Monday, April 05, 2010 - 2:24 pm
I was wondering if anyone else thought Joshua might be God? I don't think he's missing, I think it's a test for Castiel to get back into heaven and then to empower Dean to continue fighting the good fight. I'm not sure about Sam, but certainly to fight the good fight also, bc evil wants to use him and that can't happen again.
Just a thought 
|
Nyheat
Member
08-09-2006
| Monday, April 05, 2010 - 3:03 pm
<---Erm, I feel bad now, I didn't put any thought into my post, it didn't mean anything! Just that I wish they would get out of the God themes and get back to killing demons. I'm not a really "over-arching, deep meaningful underlying themes" kind of person when it comes to these shows. It's like X-Files--my favorite episodes are one offs, not the black cancer ones or the "where is Mulder's sister" theme that went on and on. The writer's lost their way on this plot IMO. It's not even that creative.
I don't mind that they seem to revisit their mother a lot in various ways. That seems a more poignant and personal reoccuring theme.
Oh, and Dean, take your shirt off! That's better.
|
Cablejockey
Member
12-27-2001
| Tuesday, April 06, 2010 - 9:38 am
Have we ever seen Dean without his shirt on? I cant remember.
I was thinking there is a lot more to Joshua than he let us see. Just the way the bad Angel deferred to him when he absolutely didnt want to, was very telling.
I really enjoy that I dont have a clue whats going to happen next!
|
Scout
Member
01-20-2005
| Tuesday, April 06, 2010 - 9:45 am
Stormie - I thought Joshua was possibly God also.
I liked the way they portayed different heavens.
Thought it was a really good episode.
|
Calamity
Member
10-18-2001
| Tuesday, April 06, 2010 - 3:07 pm
It was a thought-provoking but also frustrating episode. Didn't the night sky look amazing, how bright and many the stars were? You could almost feel the universe moving around them. I could believe it was an axis mundi. Also liked them touching on the concept of personal heavens and the Garden depicted as a botanical garden they visited as children. Curious about John's whereabouts. I won't tell someone he/she shouldn't be offended by the show but, for me, I don't think it's wrong to give voice to those who wonder where is God in times like these. Sometimes faith is the easy way out - it gives you an excuse not to do what you know is right. But at the same you have to guard against smug cynicism or nihilism. That's the balancing act the show has to walk. As I've said before, Supernatural's grasp tends to exceed its reach which is why it can frustrate me. But at least it tries. I really hated the part with Zachariah and (was that?) their mom though.
As for the myth question - when Supernatural premiered it was billed as a show about two brothers traveling the back roads of America while investigating cases based on urban legends. Urban legends are part of the American mythos - modern, sometimes tacky, versions of the tall tales of yore. But it was never just about urban legends, there's always been underpinnings of traditional folklore and religion too. Fitting since American culture has so many influences (makes me think of Neil Gaiman's American Gods). They're all part of someone's belief system too, so including Judeo-Christian themes, certainly important in American society, is just part of that, imho.
|
Calamity
Member
10-18-2001
| Wednesday, April 07, 2010 - 11:16 am
...Supernatural's grasp tends to exceed its reach...
Something was nagging at me so I checked my post and, yep, I got that saying backwards, lol. My apologies to Robert Browning.
|
Calamity
Member
10-18-2001
| Friday, April 09, 2010 - 7:28 am
Supernatural has featured many scary things - demons, monsters, gore, violence, loss, hopelessness, Lucifer, just to name some - but the zealotry and blindly following mob mentality of those townsfolk in last night's show really frightened me. Even if some hesitated at different times.
I don't know what's going to happen but it crushed me that it looks like Dean is going to Zachariah. If so, that will probably only make Sam even more of a target now - of both sides. Poor Castiel looks so lost. Before it was Sam who seemed fatalistic, at least about his own chances, but this epi Dean revealed that he thought this was the end of the world and he and Sam couldn't stop it. That really upset Sam.
Good line from Sam about having backup. Afterwards, S&D looked, well maybe not happy but at least not so on edge, and then that unlucky kid got pulled under the car. It was the demon who'd been attacking Sam, wasn't it? I'd wondered what happened to her and couldn't believe they'd overlook her disappearance.
P.S. I liked the nature scenes in their motel room. They seemed symbolic, especially after last week's show.
|
Ahnicka
Member
08-08-2007
| Friday, April 09, 2010 - 10:21 am
Stormie, that's a great point you made about Joshua possibly being God, but wouldn't Zachariah (?) have known that? He did eventually concede to him because Joshua said he was on a mission from God, but if he was truly God wouldn't Zach have known? Regardless, I think you may be on to something.
Calamity, I agree that it's very realistic that people wonder where is God when all this suffering is going on in their lives and in the world in general, I think even believers wonder that, but to completely say God has turned His back on His people when the covenant of His word says the very opposite can seem like a slap in the face to a faith-based person, and that's without even going into an angel of the Lord acting like lucifer himself. I'm not saying one has to see it that way, my original point is that it's possible that it can be viewed as offensive by some, and IMO they have every right to feel that way just like those who have the right to not feel that way. Believers are valid people and have valid perspectives too and should not be negated, dismissed, or belittled simply because they choose to believe in God, because if it was something someone else felt deeply or passionate about, then they would not view it so callously or dismissively.
|
Calamity
Member
10-18-2001
| Friday, April 09, 2010 - 3:07 pm
Ahnicka: I didn't say people don't have the right to be offended by the show. My point was simply that the disillusioned and despairing, those who feel spiritually betrayed or abandoned have an equal right to their views being heard. It's understandable that such views might seem disrespectful to the devout and so make them feel insulted and defensive but that doesn't mean those whose faith has been shaken or who simply do not share the same beliefs should be silenced so as not to offend certain true believers. Throughout human history it's usually been the dissatisfied, the renegades, and the outsiders who've brought attention to unpleasant truths and asked the difficult questions.
Now, as to whether it's wrong for Supernatural's writers to use parts of Judeo-Christian theology for their show - yes and no, imho. Certainly it can be argued that co-opting (some might say warping) any religion's beliefs for entertainment is wrong. And I suppose since there's way more Christians in America than there are followers of, say, ancient Egyptian gods and goddesses, it makes sense that more people could be offended by Supernatural than Lost. But that distinction only really highlights the religious double standard, that is, your beliefs (that's a general "you", not directed at anyone specifically) are more deserving of respect than someone else's. Think about how movies, theater, tv, books, video games, etc., have borrowed themes, symbols, and rituals from many different cultures and belief systems - from Native American animism to Celtic paganism and so on. In many cases that use is hardly thoughtful or reverent. As for Supernatural, no one is likely to mistake Castiel with Clarence from It's a Wonderful Life. And Joshua's claim that God doesn't think the looming Apocalypse is His problem to solve wouldn't make a very uplifting homily topic. But I think we have to wait to see how this all plays out. Bad things happen in the Bible too and even Jesus asked why God had foresaken him.
P.S. I write all this but it occurs to me that we may not be disagreeing that much at all. Of course, you may feel differently!
Sorry to those who think this wandered too far off-topic: as penance I searched for a preview for the 100th episode (and holy cow, it's a doozy): YouTube And here's the epi's synopsis (might seem spoilerish to some): Dean begins to think the only way to stop Lucifer is to say yes to Michael, but the angels decide they don’t need him anymore. Dean, Sam, and Castiel are horrified at the angels' new game plan and take on Zachariah to prevent an all-out war on Earth. Meanwhile, a familiar face returns.
|
Ahnicka
Member
08-08-2007
| Friday, April 09, 2010 - 3:48 pm
Calamity, my apologies for my poor writing style, I didn't mean that whole second paragraph to be directed at you, I was agreeing with you about the reality of wondering where God is and the relevance of that being on a show, and then I went a little further into it as a general statement but didn't really mean to direct it towards you at all. I meant it as general talk. I should have separated it into another paragraph.
You're right I think we're actually saying the same thing. As I stated before, those who don't see it that way have the right not to, but the same right goes to those who do. It's just as legit. I'm not devout and I don't think it takes a devout person for it to be a possible reality that someone could be offended by the extreme contradiction and potential defamation of someone's God. Not saying that's exactly how it is, but I'm am saying that it has the potential to be viewed that way and those who do are not any less legit than anyone else. My point was always that I can see how some may perceive it as offensive, never did I say that others couldn't view it differently or that they should be silenced, that was brought in by someone else who chose to make it appear like that was being said when it wasn't, which I've noticed seems to be a common theme by those who don't care for religion, faith, believers, etc. But those words were never said by me. Matter of fact, I originally just typed a thought or opinion of that particular episode and then it was commented on as if my thought or opinion was wrong.
Now, so that I can remain true to Stormie because I said I'd discuss the show specifically, the synopsis you posted is finally what I've been wondering about for a while now and have mentioned on this board. I never understood why Dean was so opposed to being a vessel for Michael if it will help people like he says he wants to do, and to atone for his guilt about what he did in hell. Given what we know about Dean since he returned from hell, I never got his reluctance, but leave it to Dean to wait until the 11th hour when the angels feel they don't need him anymore. LOL
|
Calamity
Member
10-18-2001
| Saturday, April 10, 2010 - 1:25 pm
No hard feelings. Ahnicka, and I apologize if I misconstrued any of your comments.
Absolutely I can understand why some would be up in arms over Supernatural's take on the God of the Bible, the Book of Revelations, etc.. At the same time, I doubt many of those same folks would think it sacrilegious or at least inappropriate if the show was basing its plot on some other religion's beliefs. (Then again, they might then claim the show's promoting the occult or something. Well, they probably already do that while being a-okay with those Left Behind books.) That's just how it is. I kinda look at it this way - The Amazing Race has featured many important, meaningful rituals from various cultures around the world. But I don't expect the show to ever make a stop in Vatican City where Phil will explain that that leg's Roadblock is to perform the Stations of the Cross, lol.
(Hmm, you're probably not supposed to type "lol" when mentioning the Stations of the Cross...)
And yeah, Dean's timing may be a bit off. But since I don't trust Zachariah, I was a little relieved to read that. I guess Dean must be really desperate if he was thinking he could cut a deal with Zach without it backfiring on him and Sam.
|
Stormie
Member
03-01-2007
| Thursday, April 15, 2010 - 2:21 am
I finally caught up
I thought Castiel was at a crossroads and if he keeps going on this path, he's going to end up a drunk like in the future they saw. If Dean goes to Michael, that future may happen.
I wondered if all those townspeople were under some spell of the demon, didn't that book say the demon could manipulate people, bc I didn't think they'd just go against their friends.
Kind of a sad episode, but I guess it has to go down to get back up when they kick some demon behind.
Calamity Friday, April 09, 2010
I don't know what's going to happen but it crushed me that it looks like Dean is going to Zachariah.
I thought he was going to Michael, I guess through Zacharia? I can't believe he might be--he's so despondent, I can't see him just letting Michael in, unless he has a plan and asks for something in return, like his brother being spared.
Ahnicka Friday, April 09, 2010
Stormie, that's a great point you made about Joshua possibly being God, but wouldn't Zachariah (?) have known that?
Joshua came in the room very calmly, but he seemed more in charge of something, then Zacharia seemed to just do what he was told. So Joshua either is God or has some power, and if either is the case, I don't think Zacharia would tell the brothers, but then again, he didn't seem to know. Maybe some things must remain secret.
Ahnicka Friday, April 09, 2010 - 3:48 pm
I never understood why Dean was so opposed to being a vessel for Michael if it will help people like he says he wants to do, and to atone for his guilt about what he did in hell.
I think they mentioned lots of people would die a while ago, I forget, but also, technically he'd be fighting his brother, both would be vessels, but one would have to die.
|
Calamity
Member
10-18-2001
| Thursday, April 15, 2010 - 9:05 am
I wondered if all those townspeople were under some spell of the demon, didn't that book say the demon could manipulate people, bc I didn't think they'd just go against their friends.
Oh absolutely they were being manipulated but it didn't look like they were actually possessed. So free will should have still been in play. Notice not everyone, including the preacher and the bar owner, went along with the hysteria. And even some who had gone along stopped when told to burn the "sinners". Mob mentality, picking out scapegoats, zealotry - I'm afraid those are all too common traits in humanity. The demon may have given the townspeople a push but it was their choice to listen. Yes, they were frightened and desperate but still.
I thought he was going to Michael, I guess through Zacharia? I can't believe he might be--he's so despondent, I can't see him just letting Michael in, unless he has a plan and asks for something in return, like his brother being spared.
That's what I thought he meant when he told Lisa that he was going to make arrangements for her & her son. And I figured he'd try to strike a deal to protect Sam and maybe some others important to him as well. But that would be putting a lot of faith in the angels.
I don't mean to be arguing you Stormie! Mob behavior is just one of those things that really gets me. It scares me more than vampires do, lol.
|
|
|
|
