| Author |
Message |
Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Monday, May 01, 2023 - 1:43 pm 
Well, I'm gonna just ignore the whole idea of Supe and TW being in separate universes until they say it is on TW. Supe was never this complicated. If it had been, like The X-Files became, I'd never have been such a fan of it. I loved X-Files until it got so convoluted it didn't make sense anymore...and it looks like that's where TW is heading if this alt-verse idea is what they're doing. It really makes me not care about the TW characters at all...if they are just random alt versions of the Boys' parents and possibly other random "alts" (as guest stars) it simply doesn't matter.
TW is already different enough from Supe without adding more changes. TW characters already live in a universe where laughter/humor don't exist. Making them all alt-people with various histories from a separate Supe universe doesn't do anything but change my (our?) perceptions of them....because they ARE different characters.
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Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Monday, May 01, 2023 - 1:59 pm
Yes, it would make the Rowena and Trickster cameos meaningless as they're not our Rowena and Trickster.
It's possible the writers haven't thought it through (I don't think they are the Supe writers), but much more likely I'm just wrong! I will get a better idea of it soon. 
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Monday, May 01, 2023 - 2:50 pm
"Yes, it would make the Rowena and Trickster cameos meaningless as they're not our Rowena and Trickster"
And of course, the John and Mary characters would also be meaningless.
"but much more likely I'm just wrong!"
It's not just you...judging by all those articles I found, it looks like this idea has become a "thing" among a lot of fans.
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Tuesday, May 02, 2023 - 12:09 pm
Okay...I just rewatched the relevant parts of TW's finale and now I understand it all.
Kitt, don't make yourself crazy over all the bits you don't know about the connection of Supe and TW. You WILL know EVERYTHING by the end of the finale.
I didn't rewatch any of TW except for (most of) the finale and I am 100% satisfied with all the big questions and all the big answers. It all makes sense. Trust me....you don't need to run down a bunch of rabbit holes to figure it out...the finale makes it perfectly clear.
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Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Tuesday, May 02, 2023 - 12:10 pm
"Now I wonder what the Winchesters knew about the background/origin of the angel known as Trickster/Gabriel when he appeared on TW years before The Boys were even born."
Well I just watched that episode. There was no mention of him being anything other than Loki. And when the gang try to foil him, they look up info on the Norse god Loki, it says he gets his power from an enchanted mirror he keeps with him. It also tells them they can get him by creating a mirror of their own, enchanted by their own blood. They use reflective knives as mirrors, enchant them and stab him with it, but it doesn't work, and Loki says their incantation was mistranslated. But (for reasons I couldn't understand), when Carlos refuses to designate a person to sing to (who would then burn up, as this was Loki's current thing, in the episode) that breaks the curse, and Loki gets sucked up into his own enchanted mirror and trapped there.
So although the spell they got didn't work, everything else is consistent with Gabriel being in his phase where he "became" the Norse God Loki. And if John remembered anything, he'd think they'd successfully entrapped the Norse God Loki, and he's still in the trunk they put the mirror in.
That was episode 8. It has got better, and e8 was a particularly good episode, but before that it's still just lacking heart and humour. Carlos seems to provide both, and John is promising, but not so much the rest. Mary is much better than she was, she had an episode where the monster made her give up what she was holding onto the most, and it was her anger over her parents forcing her into the hunting life, and after that epiphany she's been much more likeable.
And you were right, Dean's voiceover for most episodes is just some platitude about hunting being hard and friendship. Nothing of substance since e1. But also (as well as the Trickster) in e8, it's when they first get to talk to Samuel Campbell, and he'd taken photos of possible Akrida Queen hangouts. One of the photos had Dean leaning against Baby in it, and that's when John recognises Dean as the one who gave him the letter.
It seems like Dean is watching them (by making visits from heaven???) throughout this journey to kill the Akrida.
One other thing, after Lata read something in her books, she said it's possible the Akrida came from an alternate universe, so they've kind of put alternate universes out there. I don't think they were mentioned/known in Supe until they actually became part of the plot.
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Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Tuesday, May 02, 2023 - 12:14 pm
I was typing at the same time as you again .
Well that's good, and you seem happy with it, not mad, so that is also a good sign! I might get through to the end of it today, I only have five episodes left and it's easy to watch because it's background-able, and not intense like Supe.
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Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Tuesday, May 02, 2023 - 12:31 pm
Just started e9. In e8 Mary throw caution to the wind and decided to be with John. Beginning of e9 she says she doesn't want to tell the others, as it would complicate things in life or death situations, and she wants to keep it simple.
Cut to Dean voiceover:
"This isn't how I saw things going when I pushed over that first domino. Thing is, I've had more than a few dances with free will, and fate, but as my dad used to say, fate is what you make it."
I wish I'd paid more attention first time through for things like this, but I think it still might not have helped as I wasn't far enough into Supe to understand what was significant. But it's definitely curious now .
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Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Tuesday, May 02, 2023 - 1:06 pm
Turns out the fate part of that quote was due to something that happened later that episode. John saw his fate and he was bitten by a vampire, to fix that he had to temporarily die, get bitten (stunning the vampire with dead man's blood), and then get revived. Which worked, of course ;).
But the "when I pushed over that first domino" still heavily suggests he is trying to accomplish something by poking Mary and John.
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Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Tuesday, May 02, 2023 - 7:20 pm
OMG I loved the finale!! Or at least from when Dean appeared!!
Before I started e13 I read through the TW thread, and it's funny, my views now on how much I liked it (eps 1-12) matches back then. Started off without personality, gained some, but is still lacking in something. I think I really did pay very little attention to them first time round, I remembered the clown one, but hardly any of the others. I think I was aware there were things I was missing from only being part way through Supe, and that annoyed me, plus that accent of course, and with no really compelling characters I tuned out.
But with the finale... I'm not sure why they would continue the story now, it was so nicely wrapped up for a short mini-series, why mess with it? Especially when the characters weren't really a hit. I guess they could have a kind of a B version of Supernatural running with these alt-characters, and fans of them would like it, but I think the Supe fans would always think of them as not quite real. Especially if they don't quickly fix whatever dynamic is missing.
Anyway, it was such a nice idea, to give us "one more hunt." And once the Akrida Queen said they'd been made by an angry god to destroy all the worlds it felt like I understood everything, lol, even before Dean's bits! When Jared was upset about the show, one of his tweets was that he was sad there was no place for Sam in it. That's what made me sure Dean was in heaven, and with what the queen said, that's when I understood why Sam couldn't be there, Dean was trying to save Sam as Sam was still living!
Oh, meddling Dean . And Jack let him off with a prompt from Bobby .
Sounded like he was just going round looking for a happy family, like a voyeur, first, before he discovered the Akrida. Just nosing around, wondering. And then he meddled to save the world that had the most potential to kill the Akrida off, and hence save everyone else, including Sammy.
Who can blame him? Certainly not Bobby and Jack!
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Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Tuesday, May 02, 2023 - 7:48 pm
This is a really nice, appreciative discussion of the TW finale:
https://collider.com/winchesters-finale-dean-supernatural/
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Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Tuesday, May 02, 2023 - 7:57 pm
And now it's hitting me that this really all is over, and I'm sad again!!
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Tuesday, May 02, 2023 - 8:18 pm
What really bugged me was they made a series that encouraged the viewers to assume there was a connection in the plot between TW and Supe but then ended TW by finally showing the only connection was Dean and friends trying to give an alt-family (a family that they had never before met or interacted with) a break and a chance to have a happier life in their alt universe. It affected nothing in the Supe universe whatsoever.
After the Akrida were killed, there should be no more alt trips. If they had just aired the Dean stuff in the beginning or maybe just a few episodes in, they could've let the viewers know TW wasn't meant to share a plot line with Supe. Then TW could start building their own canon....they could kill or replace anyone they wanted or change any character's behavior or create any new character or gone in any direction they wanted. Instead they conned the viewers into thinking they were watching a show that wasn't there. We viewers were tricked into thinking TW was a prequel. It wasn't. It's just a low rent spinoff with bellbottoms.
I only had to watch about 30 min of the finale to learn the true premise of the show but they chose to take an entire season to reveal the premise.....the rest of season 1 was just a misdirection. Anything you thought was a connection to Supe wasn't. All the time spent looking for connections to Supe is just wasted time. Few of your first impressions of a lot of things were red herrings because we watched a whole first season completely out of context.
To top it off, TW will never hold up unless they embrace the humor and heart of it's predecessor, Supe. If it gets picked up for season 2 and it remains chained to this sullen, too serious group of misfits, it might be enough for 15 year olds that want to see monster fights, but it won't be a drama with the gravitas of the original Supernatural.
I'm not mad, just irked at being lied to by the TW producers. And if anyone should understand that TW needs humor and heart, it's the executive producer...Jensen Ackles!
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Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Tuesday, May 02, 2023 - 11:00 pm
"What really bugged me was they made a series that encouraged the viewers to assume there was a connection in the plot between TW and Supe but then ended TW by finally showing the only connection was Dean and friends trying to give an alt-family (a family that they had never before met or interacted with) a break and a chance to have a happier life in their alt universe. It affected nothing in the Supe universe whatsoever. "
It did affect something in the Supe world... not sure if I'm misunderstanding or you missed a part. From what I understood, the TW overarching story was that when (our) Chuck wanted to destroy all the other worlds (in the Supe final episodes) he also created the Akrida - as a failsafe in case he ran into a problem - who were a universe jumping species who could destroy any world. Chuck messed up, and thanks to Sam and Dean and Jack our (Supe) world survived, but the Akrida were still there in the multiverse(?) or between universes, and were going to complete Chuck's goal to kill our world too. Dean found that out randomly, while going on a metaphysical joy ride to just observe other Johns and Marys, looking for a happier story than his own, but once he knew, he couldn't let it happen, because he still had "family" (Sam!) living on earth, and they deserved a long life too.
So he intervened. Seems like as a dead person you can look through time as an observer, but no meddling per Jack's rules. And Dean, while observing, found an alt-world (the TW world) where the Akrida were attacking at a time his alt-family could do something about it. So he pushed them together by arranging their meeting (giving John Henry's letter telling him to go where Mary happened to be) and team-up as hunters, and nudged a few other bits here and there too. And saved the day at the end. The TW folk, with help, killed the Akrida, which yes saved their world (at least from that!) but also saved Sam and everyone on our world, as the Akrida wouldn't attack and destroy our world next.
So Dean saved alt-John and Mary, and alt-World, to save his Sam.
Is that not what you got from it?
I'm fuzzy on a few bits of the mechanics of it (how the Akrida were back in 1972 not in 2020) but I think the above is the gist.
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Wednesday, May 03, 2023 - 12:49 am
"So Dean saved alt-John and Mary, and alt-World, to save his Sam."
I get that. But that was just one episode of TW that came up after a whole season of trying to understand how this "prequel" related to Supe. It didn't. Even the crossover characters like Rowena and Trickster seemed to have had no connection to Supe.
It's easy to see now. It wasn't a "prequel"...it was a one ep crossover that didn't involve any of the other Supe characters besides the ones in the TW finale.
It just hit me...had they just ended Supe with Dean showing up in TW world and saving it....and then having TW start and run as it did until the finale, and called it a spinoff instead of a prequel, it would made more sense and been a lot less frustrating.
Anyhow aside from the finale ep being the connection to TW, what I said about the series up to the finale is still true:
"the rest of season 1 was just a misdirection. Anything you thought was a connection to Supe wasn't. All the time spent looking for connections to Supe is just wasted time. Few of your first impressions of a lot of things were red herrings because we watched a whole first season completely out of context. "
I guess I'm irked because I watched a whole season of a show based on it being a prequel of a show I loved....but it was just a crossover ep masquerading as a bad spinoff that was presented out of context.
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Wednesday, May 03, 2023 - 1:08 am
"Dean found that out randomly, while going on a metaphysical joy ride to just observe other Johns and Marys, looking for a happier story than his own, "
I thought the TW world was the last world left for the akrida to destroy before reaching the final target, the Supe world.
Anyhow, it doesn't matter....I don't care anymore. Too many things are confusing to me because things were out of context and histories were too far apart. 3 yrs after Supe ended there was a whole season of TW's misdirection before Supe even became part of the story, in one finale episode.
It might've been easier to follow if I had rewatched Supe BEFORE seeing TW...but if one has to rewatch 15 years of a show in order to understand it's fake prequel, something's wrong.
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Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Wednesday, May 03, 2023 - 9:35 am
Yeah I get that. I think in retrospect they should have told us up front that it was a spin off on an alt-world, another John and Mary, then when they got to the reveal in the finale it would have been such fun to find out that this was why this alt-world matters, it was the one that saved our world. Then this TW could go on and do its own thing.
It could be that the network wanted the "prequel" label, as it's easier to understand than answering questions that might have given away the plot/twist early on. But I agree, definitely not a prequel.
And I think you're right about it might have been better for you if you'd waited to watch until after the Supe rewatch. As I was watching it (TW), once I got an idea of what was going on, I thought it's not a new TV show, it's one long episode of Supernatural. This is Dean, going off world again, and this is what he found and did. It's not history, it's a bubble. Turns out it wasn't a bubble, it was an alt-world, but the story was just an offshoot of Supe, not outside of Supe.
I was fine with that because I just wanted more Sam and Dean, but if someone was watching it believing it was - as presented - potentially a new version of the show I understand thinking it was a bait and switch.
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Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Wednesday, May 03, 2023 - 9:58 am
Btw, I read yesterday that they intended this arc on TW to last the whole 22 episode season, and when they were told they would only be getting the front 13 they had to rewrite to fit it in.
So imagine how miffed you'd be if you'd gone through a whole season only to find out in episode 22 that it was an alt-world. 
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Wednesday, May 03, 2023 - 10:21 am
I do still love the entire series of Supernatural, including the "TW finale" that was stupidly connected with the wrong series.
I just kinda wish the akrida had wiped out the depressing cast of TW world and at the last minute, Dean showed up, ganked the akrida right after TW world was obliterated and just saved Supe world....which was a more than big enough universe to supply future spinoffs if that's what they wanted to do.
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Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Wednesday, May 03, 2023 - 10:30 am
Good, because I'd hate for the TW experience to spoil the rosy afterglow of the Supe rewatch
I thought I'd look for Supe blooper reels today. I'm just about over my tears about Sam being left behind (nope, there I go with the welling eyes again) and feel I should try to emotionally disconnect myself from Sam and Dean the characters somewhat for my own state of mind. Seeing Jared and Jensen joking about might be just the thing I need.
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Wednesday, May 03, 2023 - 10:40 am
There are a LOT of bloopers for Supe! I've seen at 2-3 hours worth of them, but don't ask me which ones are the best. There are so many and a lot of the individual bloopers are on more than 1 (or 2 or 3) blooper reels.
Damn. I just remembered something and forgot to post it here. Misha Collins is on a new series about Gotham City. I believe he plays the villain called Two-Face. It aired last night I think(?)...probably on the CW but that's just a guess. I've never been a Batman fan so I haven't seen more than the first 2-3 Batman movies from years ago (and the original Batman with Adam West).
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Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Wednesday, May 03, 2023 - 12:39 pm
I saw he was in it, and did wonder, but it's not really my kind of show. Also, Misha as a villain?! The gentlest villain ever maybe .
I am wondering whether to watch Jared in Walker. I'm not into Western type shows, but it seems like it's basically a crime kind of thing, just different setting. And Matt Barr is in it, and I like him too. S1 and S2 are on HBO Max, and free on CW.com (which I didn't know was free until when I looked for TW, they have many of their shows there).
I have seen The Boys with Jensen, although I didn't know who he was at the time. And he was in this season's Big Sky too.
I have to wonder if they're as excited for everything they do as they were for Supernatural. I think they might have been once in a lifetime roles.
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Wednesday, May 03, 2023 - 6:35 pm
I watched the first few eps of Walker just because Jared was in it, but it was too boring to keep up with. I never saw any character chemistry on Walker like I did on Supe.
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Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Wednesday, May 03, 2023 - 9:38 pm
I'll probably watch one tomorrow, but won't continue if it doesn't pull me in. Unless we get really desperate when the writers' strike kicks in!
There's a long (3 hours!) blooper real on youtube at the Wayward Winchester stream, I watched about an hour of that today. Some funny bits, including Misha and Alex talking about the similarity between the two. They do a genetic test but then get stopped from getting the answers . They all seem to have had a lot of fun!
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Thursday, May 04, 2023 - 10:22 am
I watched part of a 3 hr one. I remember the part about them talked about looking alike (I don't see it)....but I don't remember the DNA test part. I was watching for awhile before I noticed it was 3 whole hours and stopped soon after.
It might've been one of the blooper reels that duplicated much of the content of other reels.
I know there was one that said it showed the bloopers from serious scenes, followed by the actual scenes that aired. I was going to check it out, but forgot.
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Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Thursday, May 04, 2023 - 11:42 am
I watched the first episode of Walker. Might be my thing, I'll give it a few more episodes. There are several in the cast I've liked in other things. I was surprised to see Jared's wife being Walker's wife... and then *spoiler alert* she's killed off in the first five minutes!
Yeah I'm watching the three hour blooper reel (with convention snippets) in pieces. There were so many others I thought there's a good chance they would all be in that one. They didn't focus on it like the reel you're talking about, but there were some scenes I remember in there as being serious, and then to see the fooling around is a little strange. Odd to see how quickly they switch in and out of character, especially when I am so... entrenched(?) with the characters.
Got a question for you, Sanfran, if you choose to accept it . I keep seeing "Destiel" stuff, and yesterday I saw some articles about when Castiel told Dean he loved him when he sacrificed himself to save them all, he meant romantic love. I thought it was a kind of absolute love, but I didn't think of it that way. Misha said he'd been playing Castiel's love for Dean that way since part way through season 14, when he realised something had changed. I couldn't find anything on what the writers intended. I wondered what you thought.
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