| Author |
Message |
Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Friday, April 28, 2023 - 5:09 pm 
I watched the two specials. The special from season 15 was so rushed, so much to fit into just 45 minutes. Oh the reactions one though, they really didn't want to end, or rather not end permanently.
I like that they really meant what they wrote. Sometimes you watch shows that affect you, and then the writers or someone basically say they crafted it to pull on your heartstrings, but these writers seem to have honestly written what they wanted to see as fans, and what they thought was a proper conclusion to the story.
So hard to see Jensen near tears as they pulled apart the Men of Letters bunker set. Must have felt so final to them. The best job I had (the physics one actually) I was there seven years and my final day I couldn't function. At times I was crying so much I couldn't speak (see a trend?!), I had people coming in to say goodbye, then just not knowing what to do, lol. But twice that long, and on such an intense project, it must have been almost overwhelming for these guys.
I kind of wonder how they feel about it three years long, whether they still wish they could go back.
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Friday, April 28, 2023 - 9:26 pm
Remember how we started talking about Supe and I was really giving it a hard sell? I praised it and really tried to get folks interested enough to check it out. At the time I even had second thoughts about my building it up so much. I worried that I'd oversold it and that if anyone binged it, they'd wind up disappointed.
Then I decided to watch the first ep just to if it was even close to the praise I gave it....and before I knew it, I'd watched 10 or so eps. At some point along the way I realized something...I had forgotten a lot more than I remembered, such as the general plot and a few favorite eps scattered across 15 years.
As I watched it and discussed it with you and really thought about it I realized that what I actually remembered was the emotional impact it had on me, even if I'd forgotten most of the plot points and details.
I'm just happy my heart remembered what my brain forgot!
It's hard to believe that we watched an entire 15 years of Supernatural already. This was the BEST BINGE EVER...and over the COVID years I binged Lost, all of AHS, True Blood, Farscape, Oz, and at least 3 different Star Treks, including all of the ST movies. These were all of my favorite shows...and I know I'm forgetting others I binged. Supe honestly tops them all in the heart strings and originality departments.
This was like a reunion with a best friend in the world that I hadn't seen in decades and it only took a few seconds to feel like we'd never been separated.
You know, they could've ruined the whole experience if they'd done the ending differently. The finale really was the perfect way to tie it up. It didn't go overboard and it wasn't corny or feel outside the realm of every other episode in those 15 seasons. It was just perfect. Period.
Now if they could just get TW headed in the right direction... A lot more heart and a good sized dollop of humor could go a long way (but it could never surpass the original Supe).
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Btw, in one of those specials they showed Chuck sitting at his typewriter and he said something and then just vanished *poof!* into thin air. When I saw that scene in the show, my first thought was that when you saw that moment you'd instantly put 2 and 2 together and realize he was god, who'd gone missing. That was foreshadowing that went right over my head when I first saw it, but I figured you'd pick up on it immediately. He'd already told the Boys he was god and then they showed the viewers that he could vanish into thin air! Duh..
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Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Friday, April 28, 2023 - 11:16 pm
I'm just happy my heart remembered what my brain forgot!
Me too! I probably wouldn't have watched it without your nudging, I was thinking about it but 15 seasons just seems like sooooo much, particularly as I assumed I'd watch it at treadmill rate of four or so a week. But I'm so glad I did, and that we watched it in the short time too, I think that really intensified it.
And it's the same with me, I won't remember many small plots but I will remember the relationship between those boys, and between Dean and Castiel. Even between Dean and Benny, there's something so sublime about people who just know how to love and trust.
Yes, there would have been many ways to give an unsatisfactory ending, or one that didn't give us a sense of completeness. Maybe they could have pulled it off another way, I don't know. If it had ended with e19 and the "we all saved the world" ending I would have been happy but would have thought.. ok where's the next season where the next catastrophe happens? This way what happened to Dean was what he always knew in his heart would happen, but when it did he was happy and fulfilled and he believed Sammy could go on without him. And have the family he wanted for him. So painful, but I have the same word too, it was perfect.
Chuck as prophet confused me. I thought a prophet was someone who foretold the word of good, so when he was just the writer of the books it made complete sense to me that he was writing down what the boys were going through and serialising it to make money. So cunning! But as time went on he changed his own description to being the word of good (rather than writing it), and it seemed like he was creating the story rather than writing what had happened/was going to happen and I was just confused about what he did. If I noticed him disappearing I would have filed that under ~things I don't understand which will probably make sense later~. At one point I looked him up on imdb and it even gave his character as "Chuck/God" or similar, and even with that, I thought it can't mean what it sounds like, must be something else and I'll find out what it means later. I don't think I ever thought god could be a character, at least not until many seasons in.
Actually Chuck as god still seems so incongruent(word?) to me. I never saw him and thought God, like I did when for example I saw Death and thought Death. It was a real shattering of all norms, I think. Can't really explain what I mean, but I guess I have too ingrained either a traditional god, or a god is nature god, or an absent god. I guess nothing had prepared me for a dickish god!
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Saturday, April 29, 2023 - 7:39 pm
" It was a real shattering of all norms, I think. Can't really explain what I mean, but I guess I have too ingrained either a traditional god, or a god is nature god, or an absent god. I guess nothing had prepared me for a dickish god!"
That was one of the best things about Supe. It colored WAY outside the lines and did so without apology!
As an bonafide atheist, the way saw it, the characterizations on Supe were no more "outside the lines" than the stories/characters/behaviors in the actual bible and other religious texts. Because of that, I didn't tend to compare the Supe gods to "real" gods because, to me, they are ALL just fictional stories using metaphors to represent different ideas.
I noticed that you had difficulty seeing god and angels on Supe as the "bad guys"....in fact, you still believed what angels said even when I pointed out several times that on Supernatural, "angels are liars".  God being such a dick was one of the funniest surprises on Supe!
The Supe writers were not only geniuses...they were geniuses with the guts to openly defy the sacrosanct!
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Saturday, April 29, 2023 - 8:00 pm
Come to think of it, some of my other favorite shows have a very different (but original) take on the institution of religion.
"American Gods" and "Preacher"...both of these are great fun but logic simply doesn't exist in their worlds.
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Saturday, April 29, 2023 - 10:40 pm
Btw, did you spot Jesus in s15e17?
Image from IMDB
I think this was a Jesus surprise cameo. Amara was at a spa soaking in an outside tub and this "Spa attendant" shows up.
The actor is Duncan Bourke and he only has two credits listed on IMDB.COM:
1) Supernatural (Spa Attendant)
2) Zoey's Extraordinary Playlist (Tony)
He's not famous. "Supernatural" was his very first credit on IMDB.
He had one line on Supernatural: "Would you like another glass of wine?"
He offered that wine to god's sister (his Aunt?).
He wore loose robe-like clothes.
He looks exactly like Jesus is believed to have looked.
However, I cannot find any mention of him playing "Jesus" on Supernatural (just "Spa Attendant").
I don't think all of these facts are just a series of spot on coincidences. Do you? It must have been a subtle cameo just for fun, right?
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Saturday, April 29, 2023 - 10:40 pm
oops double post
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Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Saturday, April 29, 2023 - 11:07 pm
Yeah, I never got to grips with angels being baddies, or as much baddies as any other entity. The odd one, or small group, going rogue I'd have had no trouble taking in, but not the whole species. Every time we had a new angel I'd just assume these were finally the good angels, despite it never being the case! I think Castiel must have been the only good angel we ever met.
I missed that, but I'd be surprised if he wasn't meant to be spotted and assumed to be Jesus. Especially with the wine. ... Just found it (it's right at the beginning of that episode) and yes, I think so. He's too perfectly christian Jesus for it not to have been intentional I think. Yes, Amara should have been his aunt and he her nephew, so she would have trusted him, and there were no other staff around. Funny Jesus wasn't mentioned more really, given everyone else depicted. Perhaps they felt it would be too controversial.
I'm going to watch The Winchesters now! All episodes are now on HBO Max, and it looks like at the CW https://www.cwtv.com/shows/the-winchesters/ for free. I was going to wait a bit, but I'm curious how it will be transformed now I understand so much more of the story . I still haven't watched the finale!
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Saturday, April 29, 2023 - 11:45 pm
" Yes, Amara should have been his aunt and he her nephew, so she would have trusted him, and there were no other staff around."
I just checked that scene again. (thanks for letting me know where it was in that ep!)
I hadn't realized his one line wasn't in English. Now I wonder....was he speaking Aramaic?
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Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Sunday, April 30, 2023 - 12:06 am
He's speaking Icelandic! I tried looking for Aramaic translators and there aren't any, thought I'd try Icelandic as it said he was in Recjavik (sp).
This may or may not take you directly to the translation:
Google Translate
If not, type "do you want some more wine" in the left hand box, set the language on the right to Icelandic, and then press the voice/play button. You can tell that's what it is by the middle word.
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Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Sunday, April 30, 2023 - 12:58 am
Well I liked the TW premiere at the time, but it was a lot more understandable with a backstory! E2 was more a MOTW with a little bit of relevant stuff.
First thing I noticed was how Supernaturally the opening titles were! That was nice. They also impersonated fbi in e2 and used fake names .
I do think there's a possibility Dean's writing from heaven. I know Sammy appeared not long after Dean, but as Bobby said, "time works differently here," so while Sammy appeared quickly, Dean also had all the time in the world by himself. When he's writing in his journal at the end of the episode, he's on a long empty road, with Baby, but no Sam. When would that have happened in his living life?!
Maybe the final episode - which I still haven't seen - spells it out that he is writing from heaven, or maybe it's completely disproved then or before, but if I'd watched Supe before I started TW, that's what I'd have thought.
Also, kind of weird to think on October 11th last year (TW premiere date) I had no idea who that guy at the end was, or who the voice was, and now I'm oh Dean, :swoon:.
The inconsistencies about John and Mary's backstory are definitely still there, nothing happened between when we were discussing it at the time and the Supe finale - that I noticed! - fixed that. Supe had John not knowing about Mary's life until after she was killed (except at times, after which his memory was wiped), whereas in this they're together hunting from the day they meet. John also found out about the Men of Letters that first day too, when in Supe he didn't know who they were.
So what struck me is that someone John didn't recognise - who I think in TW is later revealed to be Dean by that photo - gave him an old letter from his dad, and then vanished. It's that letter that took him to the exact place where Mary was fighting a demon, and how they went from just a flirt at the bus stop/cinema, into their hunting life together.
So Henry intended the letter for John in the event of his death, but in the original timeline John never received it. (Hey I wonder if in that Supe episode when John came back and they had dinner, whether they told him what happened to Henry, and that he didn't desert them?!). So Dean made that happen at the exact time where getting it would force the meet with Mary, and help her on her quest to find her dad too.
So maybe TW happened in an alt universe. Maybe Dean snuck back in time one day and did it (although that seems unlikely because there were no knock on effects). Or maybe Dean in heaven is just writing this how he wished it would have happened, had he been able to safely change history. I don't mind any way, really, as long as they thought it through!
Maybe I will find out in 11 episodes . Or probably five or so days!
Although I wasn't too fond of the season, I'm interested in seeing what I missed that does tie back to Supe. I can fastforward through the over the top fighting and that accent if I have to ;). And it's a nice soft exit from Supe...
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Sunday, April 30, 2023 - 2:29 am
"(Hey I wonder if in that Supe episode when John came back and they had dinner, whether they told him what happened to Henry, and that he didn't desert them?!)."
It shouldn't matter at all what John learned during the dinner with his wife and kids in the future. When John went back to his own time he woke up in his car, and he was talking about having had a good dream for a change....he doesn't remember that dinner as anything but a vague dream.
"Although I wasn't too fond of the season, I'm interested in seeing what I missed that does tie back to Supe. "
Just remember that on TW, Supe is around 30+ years in their future....so nothing in Supe has happened yet. Well, except for a 300 year old witch named Rowena. Come to think of it, it was also about 30+ years before angels came into the picture! Dean Winchester didn't even believe in angels until a few seasons into Supe. Cas didn't show up until season 4. (I am just assuming the whole hunter crowd didn't know about angels before Sammy and Dean did.)
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Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Sunday, April 30, 2023 - 9:24 am
“It shouldn't matter at all what John learned during the dinner with his wife and kids in the future”
I didn’t mean with respect to TW, but just in general, whether they’d told him about his dad, in the many things they must have discussed.
Yes, I’m looking forward to seeing Rowena now I’ll know who she is . These spin offs, they always say they are self contained, and you don’t have to watch the original, but it sure does make it more fun when you have things to look out for.
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Sunday, April 30, 2023 - 12:01 pm
I didn't notice anything obvious that directly connected TW to Supe besides the appearance of Rowena and Trickster/Gabriel....that's not counting the appearance of Supe characters in the TW finale.
Did you know that Jensen and Jarod had a little tiff when it the TW project became public?
Jared Padalecki Clears Up Feud Rumors With Jensen Ackles Over 'Supernatural' Prequel Drama
https://www.etonline.com/jared-padalecki-clears-up-feud-rumors-with-jensen-ackles-over-supernatural-prequel-drama-170710
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Sunday, April 30, 2023 - 12:18 pm
" but it sure does make it more fun when you have things to look out for."
Question - I remember that Trickster/Gabriel made an appearance on TW, but I don't remember what the TW characters knew about him. He was an angel, but the Winchester boys didn't know that angels actually existed until decades later. Even when John visited for that dinner, he was surprised and fascinated by the idea that his boys were dealing with angels....so I don't think he knew about angels either.
Now I wonder what the Winchesters knew about the background/origin of the angel known as Trickster/Gabriel when he appeared on TW years before The Boys were even born.
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Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Sunday, April 30, 2023 - 2:20 pm
Yes I did see they'd - kind of - fallen out. I didn't read too much as I didn't want to risk any spoilers about Supe (even though it was about TW) and also because I feel sad if they're not getting along! But from that article it seems like it was nothing much, once explained. Twitter just creates misunderstandings.
Although the fact that Jared was sad there was no place for Sammy in it is kind of making me think the heaven idea might be right...
You must have so much patience, to listen to all my theories and waffling, knowing what the answer is and still not letting on!
Those Supe post-finale reaction videos where Jensen really didn't want to let Dean go. I'm glad he had this chance to do a bit more in the theme, and for Dean to have a small part in the show. Although it doesn't seem to be looking good for renewal, as so many CW shows have been cancelled because of some sort of change in the higher ups.
I will pay attention to the trickster episode and let you know how he presents himself. Even though I'd seen some trickster episodes by the time I saw that TW episode, I didn't recognise him until you pointed it out. This time I will know from the start.
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Sunday, April 30, 2023 - 4:46 pm
"Although the fact that Jared was sad there was no place for Sammy in it is kind of making me think the heaven idea might be right... "
"The heaven idea". Do you mean the theory that Dean was in heaven when he pops into TW in the TW finale?
I have a possible clue for you about the possible timeline (I know you love those!)
Have you paid attention to Baby's License plate number? Every time I happen to see it and think about it, it was a just generic set of numbers and letters, (CNK 80Q3). BUT when Dean makes an appearance in TW he shows up driving Baby and the license plate reads: KAS 2Y5
I thought that was a vanity plate in remembrance of Castiel when I saw it on TW. However, since then, we finished all of Supe and I noticed the plate on Baby in heaven was KAS 2Y5, the same as it was when Dean showed up in TW in the 1970s.
I have since learned the meaning behind the KAS 2Y5 plate: "KAS" refers to a Kansas plate, "2Y5" represents the year the series started - 2005.
Also I read that when the series started, it had the KAZ plate and it changed after the boys became "Most Wanted" in season 2. I remember seeing it on Supe when he went to heaven. I also remember seeing it on TW when Dean visited in the TW finale. It seems to me that Baby's plate tells us Dean came to TW from Heaven....or from "season one time".
Here's a link to what I found:
Supernatural: 9 Things You Don't Know About Dean Winchester's 1967 Chevy Impala
https://www.topspeed.com/cars/guides/supernatural-9-things-you-don-t-know-about-dean-winchester-s-1967-chevy-impala/
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Sunday, April 30, 2023 - 4:54 pm
"You must have so much patience, to listen to all my theories and waffling, knowing what the answer is and still not letting on! "
No problem. It's kind of fun toying with you when I'm feeding you partial, half-true spoilerettes that may or may not mean anything.
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Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Sunday, April 30, 2023 - 6:43 pm
When I was thinking about the heaven idea after the first couple of episodes I did think I must look at Baby's license plate next time I see it on there! I noticed it was the original plate in heaven so that would be a clue.
So if TW has that plate, I think that makes TW the story Dean tells from heaven.
One thing that I'm not sure about though, is in his monologue at the end of TW e1, Dean says something like he hasn't worked everything out yet, as if he's researching the story. Which wouldn't be the case if he was making it up. And if he was getting the story from Mary and John, who I think Bobby said live 3 miles away now (in heaven), he wouldn't be researching it, just listening and retelling. So I'm wondering if this is an alt-Mary and John, but then I don't know how Dean would be researching it, from heaven or before heaven.
"It's kind of fun toying with you when I'm feeding you partial, half-true spoilerettes that may or may not mean anything."
 
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Sunday, April 30, 2023 - 8:35 pm
"So if TW has that plate, I think that makes TW the story Dean tells from heaven."
But when Supe started, Baby had the original KAZ plate. And as far as I can tell, the KAZ plate didn't return until Dean was in heaven. Was the KAZ plate on Baby when younger Dean talked his dad into buying Baby (when Dean went to the past on Supe and met his parents when they were young)? If so, that could mean that Baby had those KAZ plates from before John's and Mary's marriage until decades later, when Sam and Dean were in their mid to late 20s (AKA season 2 of Supe).
I think Dean's narrating is just that. Narrating. It's just a tool when making a movie or TV show to guide the viewers in a certain direction. Music is another similar tool....but nobody ever wonders where that music is coming from!  I don't think Dean is literally telling his story to the past. I think Ackles is narrating mainly to pull in more fans/viewers of Supernatural for higher ratings on TW.
Hey, actors gotta make a living, too.
(Warning! Drive-by spoilerette!)
Btw, Dean doesn't show up alone on TW!
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Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Sunday, April 30, 2023 - 9:59 pm
I don't think we saw the plate when John bought Baby in the time travel episode. Wouldn't it have dealer plates anyway? I don't think TW can be related to the early seasons, so I'm fixed/fixated ;) on it being from heaven now .
At the end of the pilot, it shows Dean writing about John and Mary's exploits in a journal. So I took it that the narration is Dean's words in the journal, read out loud to us. Who knew Dean was a journaling man!? Seems like he's writing down his notes/thoughts as he works out what happened with John and Mary (or this John and Mary??), so each show is what he's just discovered and written down, and each time he narrates it's his thoughts on what he just found.
But my opinion might change as I work through the other episodes .
"I think Ackles is narrating mainly to pull in more fans/viewers of Supernatural for higher ratings on TW. :-)"
Absolutely!
"Btw, Dean doesn't show up alone on TW!"
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Sunday, April 30, 2023 - 11:30 pm
To be honest, I have no recollection of what Dean was saying as narrator. I knew that was Dean but that's about it. I think I didn't pay much attention because TW didn't grab me right out of the gate like Supe did....and I was still waiting for the moment it all clicked and got to me all the way to the finale, but that never happened.
I'm confused about something, too. Why do you think TW's John and Mary may be from a different universe? From a storytelling POV it would seem pointless to make the two main characters of TW into Sam and Dean's "alt-parents". How could it even be called a prequel to Supe if they aren't the actual people that were on Supe? That seems to me to be a lot more complicated, not to mention completely outside the wheelhouse of Supernatural.
Besides, all the "alt" people they ran into on Supe were a lot different than the versions they'd always known before. Charlie was very different and Bobby had a son but didn't even know the Boys...and Alt-Cas was a stoned hippie orgy leader on Apocalypse world!
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Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Monday, May 01, 2023 - 12:37 am
Here are some photos J and J and Misha did for EW after the finale, if you enjoy looking at pretty photos of pretty people. I just randomly found them, wasn’t ogling or anything, honest 
https://ew.com/tv/supernatural-exclusive-ew-portraits/
Stoned Cass seems so long ago! He was a particularly good alt. I’m not sure who this Mary and John are, I just can’t see how they can be our Mary and John as they were when we left them. So my limited imagination says a timeline shift, but that would have to happen between the Chuck overthrow and Dean’s death  , which didn’t seem long (and doesn’t match with the license plate); or it’s a regular alt couple (which can’t happen after Chuck because he destroyed the other worlds); or it’s a story told from heaven (which is what I’m thinking right now).
But if it a story written from heaven, I don’t understand how it’s not about our Mary and John. While at the same time it’s not our Mary and John. So right now I don’t get it .
I agree though, if it’s not about our Mary and John it’s not a prequel!
I was the same on first watch. Well on e1 I didn’t even know who Dean was, but after I started watching Supe the relationships on TW were such a pale comparison that it quickly became a background show. I’ll have to see if it improves now I’m paying more attention.
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Monday, May 01, 2023 - 11:43 am
Did you get the idea of TW being an alt-world from theories like the ones in these articles?
One theory says the posh Sammy and Dean (and their Huntercorp Company) are the alt-world in which TW is set. Really?
Theory: The Winchesters' Universe Appeared In Supernatural's Final Season
https://screenrant.com/supernatural-theory-winchesters-sam-dean-huntercorp-universe/
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Has The Winchesters Finally Fixed Its Supernatural Canon Problem?
https://screenrant.com/winchesters-dean-supernatural-plot-hole-fix/?newsletter_popup=1
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Why Supernatural fans should watch The CW’s ‘The Winchesters’
https://aiptcomics.com/2023/01/02/why-supernatural-fans-should-watch-the-winchesters/
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More Google search results:
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=the+winchesters+and+supernatural+are+incongruent
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This whole idea bugs me. I don't think I like the idea of starting a prequel and then have them change the whole premise. John and Mary are The Boys parents. The John and Mary from a different world are not. How does a switch and bait scheme help?
It's one thing to pull a switcheroo in a single episode with a MOTW but a whole season of a new prequel being a totally different premise?
I don't think so.
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Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Monday, May 01, 2023 - 12:55 pm
It just seemed like it might be the case, as I can't see how they'd be our Mary and John. I do think it's our Dean - dead Dean, but our Dean - just I can't get the story to match if it's the original universe. Even the big baddie the Akrida in TW were never mentioned in Supe.
I agree it's weird to go there, it makes the whole story less appealing on an emotional level, but if they really just wanted to do a show in the Supernatural world/alt-world then it might have been a way to do it. Keeping to our Mary and John's original story, their options would be to have the Mary story where she fell in love with John but kept her hunting from him, or to have the John story, where he's grief stricken from losing his wife, and has to look after two young boys while avenging his wife's death. I guess neither had the hook they wanted? (If my idea is true.)
I haven't checked those links because I still want to keep unspoiled over the TW finale, but there is NO WAY it's those posh Sam and Dean's life!! For one thing, they were vanished out of the world by Chuck, when he took out all the people who weren't meant to be there (like alt-Charlie and alt-Bobby). When the rest of the world was restored, I don't think those came back, as Sam and Dean never mentioned them. (And two Bobbys in heaven would be awkward now they're not in individual lock ups ;).)
I saw TW e3 this morning and I think the main problem with the show is Mary. She just has no humour. John is more likeable, and becoming smitten with Mary, so they could have at least had some sort of flirty chemistry or angst chemistry but Mary just seems blank.
Anyway I expect I'll be over with the show by the end of the week, so I'll see if anything changes or confirms my thinking. I might be completely wrong!
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