| Author |
Message |
Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Monday, April 24, 2023 - 2:12 pm 
I'm going to need a minute to process this one. I've watched to the end of the season. Jeez.
My head's spinny that God thought this was funny. I mean it looked like he did but then he actually admitted it.
Also Duma. Sees Jack in pain and just thinks, ooo great time to use him to get more angels.
Jeez.
Gonna get some food and let it settle in.
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Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Monday, April 24, 2023 - 3:10 pm
Re Picard-Jack... yes, very similar in several ways. I am having a particularly hard time with needing to dispose of this Jack because he rings so true to me. Not the son-of-Lucifer bit ;) but the ~not a bad person but just doesn't understand the emotional or moral implications of actions~ bit. That "absence of good" phrase struck me, as that's exactly what it is, there's no intent to harm, just an inability to take into account all the emotions or perhaps more precisely to weigh the different factors. They can see it will hurt but they can't balance the scales on that with the logic of some other decision.
Not sure why I have such a strength of feeling in this. In a former life I was a research physicist, and a lot of them (well, us, me included) have a strong ability to put logic over feelings. Most of us still have feelings of course, which Jack doesn't right now (then? is he dead??), but it can appear that we don't, and I suspected a couple actually didn't, at least to the same degree normal people did. So I'm familiar with acting on logic without the aid of emotion, which is not that dissimilar to acting without morals, and I somewhat identify. Even though the feelings I subjugate would almost always be my own, not other people's. Other people's I FEEL. But anyway, I see things in Jack.
I'm also overly emotional and p'd off over it all being a game for God. No idea where that's coming from as I'm not religious at all. And the angels too. Like everything's a lie, but it's not like it's a lie I believed in anyway. And God's like, f it, you all suck and won't play my games so I'm going to make it the Endtimes?! Who does that??! It's just such a dick move. (Don't worry, I am mostly aware that Supernatural is not the real world  .)
Actually maybe it's just in this day and time that I'm so fed up with bullies in everyday life that this just seems like more of the same. I desperately need good to win over evil!
Anyway... Mary's gone, which I'm sad about, but Sam is right, they above all people know that she's in heaven, and happy and peaceful, they should leave her there, even though it hurts. I'm not sure if Jack is dead or not. I kind of hope e1 or e2 of next season they will somehow get Chuck to reverse all of e20! Especially the last couple of seconds. Otherwise we'll have walker-Dean, walker-Sam and walker-Cass.
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Monday, April 24, 2023 - 4:36 pm
"Not the son-of-Lucifer bit ;) but the ~not a bad person but just doesn't understand the emotional or moral implications of actions~ bit."
AND don't forget....he doesn't understand how powerful he is. He'd said he never wanted Mary to die but he was angry and she kept needling him and that he wished it just for a second in mid anger. How many kids have told someone "I wish you were dead"? Jack didn't understand enough about human interactions, but he also didn't understand that a fleeting thought in the heat of a moment could kill.
"So I'm familiar with acting on logic without the aid of emotion, which is not that dissimilar to acting without morals, and I somewhat identify."
BUT...you must rely on logic in physics research. It's a needed tool in science. However, watching Supe doesn't require logic...in fact, logic gets in the way of the story. Supe only requires empathy and emotional reactions for success. Remember that in Supe, impossibility is acceptable, but improbability can be distracting. I'd think the exact opposite is true in scientific research. Different actions require different mindsets.
" Most of us still have feelings of course, which Jack doesn't right now"
I think Jack did have feelings...he definitely had regrets and guilt about Mary. The thing he was missing (as I interpreted it) was empathy. He could intellectually tell right from wrong, but if he couldn't experience the feelings his actions caused others to have, he was kind of lost because he was out of balance. One needs both feelings and intellectual understanding to be a balanced, socialized person.
"No idea where that's coming from as I'm not religious at all. And the angels too. Like everything's a lie, but it's not like it's a lie I believed in anyway."
You feel pissed because you care about the characters. I don't believe in god or religion at all, but in the context of this horror series, god is, indeed, a dick. He's selfish and petty and humanity was just a toy for him. He also made angels that are entitled and selfish and petty just like he is.
"And God's like, f it, you all suck and won't play my games so I'm going to make it the Endtimes?! Who does that??!"
A god that's a dick does that. Don't try to reconcile Chuck with the god in the bible that was invented by man (IMHO). As I see it they are both works of fiction. It's like trying to reconcile Twilight with the original Nosferatu or Bela Lugosi's Dracula. Which one of those tell the "real" vampire rules and behaviors? Answer: None of them. They are ALL made up....it's like comparing Unicorns with Pegasuses. 
"I'm not sure if Jack is dead or not. "
I looked at the cast for season 15 ep 1 and Alexander Calvert is listed with the main characters, but under the character name "Belphegor". I looked that name up and it's associated with the 7 deadly sins, specifically, "Sloth". That tells me Jack's future, if he has one, could be anything in the universe. The actor will be back, who knows what his role will be?
"I'm not sure if Jack is dead or not. I kind of hope e1 or e2 of next season they will somehow get Chuck to reverse all of e20!"
Keep in mind that several finales have had big things happen that got reversed sooner or later...but all of those previous seasons had upcoming seasons to deal with cliffhangers like that. BUT S15 is the final season of the series...
Gee, you really sound upset! I hope this show hasn't been too much. I realize it's like all one's hopes and fears and desires, and dreams and nightmares were put in a big blender and then the puree button was pushed, but just remember - This is "Supernatural"....the scariest, yet most heartwarming and one of the funniest shows in the history of shows.
The one thing I have always felt this show was centered around was "hope". I don't think they would toss that core feeling out the window for a hopeless ending.
"Otherwise we'll have walker-Dean, walker-Sam and walker-Cass."
Well, the fun part of those three possibilities is what would Cas, the angel zombie be like? LOL
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Btw, I am surprised that I had no idea Chuck would do that to Jack. I did remember Jack making the world tell the truth and the chaos that ensued, but a burned out Jack was a shock.
Also my memory of the series' final episode is just one very vague scene and I'm not sure I even understood it at the time. So, I expect to be surprised again...
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Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Monday, April 24, 2023 - 6:39 pm
No, I'm okay . "I'm fine" as Dean or Jack would say . Although five intense episodes in one day might not be a good idea for the finale, after that much immersion in my head I practically am Sam or Dean or Cass or sometimes all of them!
Yep, with physics you always have to follow the logic regardless of your own preferences. Which seems to me what Jack (not all of Supe) is doing. And yes, empathy was probably a better word than feelings in most cases in my previous post. Although I don't know that it is empathy that Jack's missing, I think he knows what will upset them, and has a sense of whether it will be a little hurt or a big hurt, but he just can't give it a comparative value to help him weigh up what is more important, that emotional impact, or the thing he really thinks he should do. The logic side always wins for him.
"He'd said he never wanted Mary to die but he was angry and she kept needling him and that he wished it just for a second in mid anger."
That broke my heart! One second and so much is changed. How many kids, or adults, has that happened to.
I think I'm mostly annoyed at Chuck for just throwing all his toys out of the pram. He didn't just leave it to them to solve, like he always does, he started the Endtime and plunged them into yet another period of constant life or death situations, and all the work they'd done to make safe the world - that Chuck had created - was for nothing. And it's so ~without a care~, not evil, he just had a tantrum and didn't care about them or this life, or story, he'd created. Actually. seems like Chuck is another one without a soul or morals.
Maybe he'll calm down and come back and fix some things. But most likely the boys will have to fix it. Sigh.
Jack as Sloth. Wonder what that will be. I'm glad he's back, means they can still fix him and everyone can live happily every after  .
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Monday, April 24, 2023 - 7:10 pm
"Actually. seems like Chuck is another one without a soul or morals."
I think that's exactly right. Why would he need morals? He invented them to control humans. Why would he need a soul? He's not going to burn in hell no matter how cruel he is.
He's just another monster. 
Btw, I started S15, watched all of ep1 and am now watching ep2. Some of your questions are already being answered...
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Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Monday, April 24, 2023 - 9:31 pm
That’s good. I’ll start e1 tomorrow .
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Tuesday, April 25, 2023 - 12:52 am
Ep4 - Made me LOL because...
Read AFTER you watch ep 4!
Spoiler
Click below to view spoiler | | Ep4 reminds me of our last several posts above, in this thread. 1) Your feelings about the vindictive things he's recently done for no valid reason as reflected by the Etsy woman's reaction to his new Winchester story in the ep, and 2) My feelings that it's not surprising he'd do this because he's now proven that he is nothing but an entitled assbutt who thinks he's above everyone else just because he happens to be god. <rolling my eyes> |
LOL
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Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Tuesday, April 25, 2023 - 9:53 am
Well the effects of yesterday's despair squid have gone away, and in e1 Sammy seems to have persuaded Dean out of his. (Although I'm not sure Sammy is correct that Chuck will have left them forever...)
Yesterday it seemed like Chuck plunged the whole world into darkness, but the worst of it seemed to be just where the boys were. But I think demons were released everywhere... couldn't quite tell.
I like the demon in Jack! At least if he is Sloth that's not too menacing a deadly sin. If Crowley were ever to be replaced - no idea if that's the intention here or not - that's the way to do it.
The opening title had a lot of black oily stuff on it. Which suggests to me the Empty will be back.
Btw, do you remember if they knew at the start of this season that it would be their last? The lyrics to the song that was playing at the start of e1 were very "last ride" and "coming to an end" type things. Seems like they knew. Which is good if so, means there shouldn't be any unsatisfying strands left hanging.
I'm going to try to squeeze e2 this morning, hopefully another this afternoon. Maybe two if they're not too bleak. I'm anticipating a Friday night, or possibly Saturday night if I get too busy one day, finale...
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Tuesday, April 25, 2023 - 10:48 am
"Yesterday it seemed like Chuck plunged the whole world into darkness, but the worst of it seemed to be just where the boys were. But I think demons were released everywhere... couldn't quite tell."
I thought it was all the hell spirits but just that one hole. I was thinking it would continue until hell was empty (years and years?) but the boys and Belphegor were smart enough to put up a force field to keep the hell spirits contained in that one mile radius.
"I like the demon in Jack! At least if he is Sloth that's not too menacing a deadly sin."
Yeah, I'm not so sure of the sloth thing now. I just googled Belphegor and saw this (I just read the top part, not the whole page):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belphegor#In_popular_culture
I believe Belphegor, aside from being a character on Supe, is also from christian mythology, a video game, and/or anime. I expected to see him taking naps all the time, but that hasn't happened.
In any case, it was nice to see Jack's shell again.
"Btw, do you remember if they knew at the start of this season that it would be their last?"
Yes, they knew ahead of time that S15 would be the final season. I remember when I was watching S15 as it aired, knowing it was the final season, but I don't know exactly when that announcement was made.
Aha! I just found this:
Be sure to scroll down until you see the Twitter post of The Boys & The Angel making the announcement!
https://tvline.com/2019/03/22/supernatural-final-season-15-cancelled-cw/
"I'm going to try to squeeze e2 this morning, hopefully another this afternoon. Maybe two if they're not too bleak. I'm anticipating a Friday night, or possibly Saturday night if I get too busy one day, finale..."
So you might watch ep 4 later today? I'm curious what you'll think of my latest spoiler box that you should NOT READ until after you see ep4!
------
This is not an actual spoiler, but I think I can safely say that:
"It's not too bleak"! Just more Supe where they chase monsters and in the process learn more and more of what's going on.
I have found myself so revved up as the story started unfolding faster and faster in s14....I have seen 5 eps of S15, and it didn't occur to me until I finished the 5th one that I have already seen a quarter of the final season!
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Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Tuesday, April 25, 2023 - 12:37 pm
"I thought it was all the hell spirits but just that one hole."
Ah, that explains it! Thank you!
And now (I've watched e2 and e3) Jack's body is gone. For a few minutes I was thinking maybe they would get Belphagor out and Jack could be maybe some sort of human-ish entity but blind with those sunglasses. But doesn't look like that will happen  .
Rowena sacrificed herself! Making her an uber-witch in the end made her more human, and more caring about our guys and even humanity.
Poor Cass. I feel so bad for him. He's so tough on himself as it is, and then with Dean's relentless disapproval. And after Sam and Dean discussed it and seemed to agree that they do the same things as Cass - not tell the others for some reason in their own heads - all the time too. I thought they would work it out. I hope they still do. They've got to really, it couldn't end properly with them estranged.
What a great link, your tvline one above! I haven't seen much of Jensen and Jared the people, mostly because I didn't want to bump into a spoiler, but it was funny that the dynamic between J&J there, was the same as it is in Supe. Jared had obviously planned what he wanted to say and it was all sensitive and thoughtful and emotional, and Jensen's kind of, yeah, none of that, we're going to leave emotion for the show! I'm looking forward to watching more behind the scenes stuff after the finale.
Yep, not so bleak . And a little more humour, although with those three departures perhaps the next couple will be rough. I was trying to work out when I would get to e20, as it's more fun (for me) to end on a Friday or Saturday night (I just like late night tv watching) than it is to end one afternoon (or worse, on the treadmill). I thought I might get to end of e4 today, and like you I couldn't believe that was a quarter (or in my case a fifth) of the season over so quickly! But I'll definitely watch e4 later, and maybe e5. I should have one day this week that will be very busy, it's meant to be tomorrow but I'm not entirely trusting it will be, but I'm going to try to keep up with you as much as I can. I would like to not leave you hanging for too long, waiting for me before you can type!
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Tuesday, April 25, 2023 - 3:05 pm
FOR AFTER THE FINALE!
(Big font to make it easier to find after the binge is finished!)
It's too early for this link....I'm just putting it here now so I won't have to worry about remembering it later or trying to re-find it.
It's the cast and crew's reactions to the series finale.
DON'T WATCH IT NOW - TOO MANY FINALE SPOILERS!
Just remember that link is here when the time comes to wind down with the Supernatural family.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F41VtNu6BZg
Includes lots of other Supernatural links, too!
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Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Tuesday, April 25, 2023 - 3:46 pm
Thank you for that, it will make it easy to find!
Watched e4. Back to bleak! Yes on your black box, me too. Now it's not just a thoughtless quick act in a tantrum, he's going to plot out some twisted, long lasting torment for them. It's pretty unsettling.
As was Sam saying sometimes he couldn't even breathe. These writers (the real ones, not Chuck), they destroy me, lol.
Going straight into e5!
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Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Tuesday, April 25, 2023 - 3:50 pm
Oo, oo, Benny in Sam's dream has just been repeated in the THEN. I've been worrying about Benny since the British Men of Letters had those big weapons to target vampires. I'd like him to come back and be a friend to Dean (remember those heady days when Sam didn't trust him simply because he was a vampire?!).
And I don't like the dream!!!! Chuck better not make it happen!
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Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Tuesday, April 25, 2023 - 4:51 pm
E5. Seems like Chuck is just playing sick games with them now.
They need Cass back if only to deal with Dean's scars.
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Tuesday, April 25, 2023 - 6:37 pm
"E5. Seems like Chuck is just playing sick games with them now."
I think of that assbutt as "Chucky" now...for obvious reasons. 
Well, things are developing in every damn episode so a natural time for a break ain't happening on it's own. My next ep is 10. After that I will take a break whether I want to or not. I'm exhausted from riding this crazy rollercoaster that never slows down, but just goes faster and faster and faster. 
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Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Tuesday, April 25, 2023 - 7:22 pm
E6 was a little breath... Eileen is back and it looks like Cass is on his way. They are all so traumatised!
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Tuesday, April 25, 2023 - 8:01 pm
Yay! Ep10 was a funny MOTW and with only a little talk of a core plot issue. This means it ended without me being on the edge of my seat and I can now take a break without looking back and second guessing that decision.
And I'm now halfway through the final season.
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Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Tuesday, April 25, 2023 - 9:25 pm
We need some of those! They keep wavering between devastation and hope, and so do I. I should catch up or get close to you by the end of tomorrow.
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Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Wednesday, April 26, 2023 - 11:05 am
I watched e7 and e8. They are ramping it up! Happy to see Rowena the Queen of Hell!! Excellent place for her! And good she still cared about the boys.
Considering what Adam and Michael have been through, they seem extremely well balanced! Maybe an archangel with (somewhat of a) respect for a human inside him (outside him?!) might be the perfect thing to take over from god.
So far no word on what I'm waiting on, so I should get through e9 and e10 today.
Btw I hope nothing happens to Eileen and she and Sam can be happy together!  
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Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Wednesday, April 26, 2023 - 1:27 pm
E9. Oh Billie! She is a naughty Death. I would love Jack - good Jack - back though!
And Eileen left, so much for my previous thought, though I guess it could still happen.
Chuck's various futures for Sam and Dean - although he did reveal they were other Sams and Deans - it's hard to believe that some version of that isn't inevitable. In the early seasons Dean always bothered me when he said he knew they would die young, but really it was just an honest likelihood.
10 episodes to turn it around, boys!
Most importantly, Dean forgave Cass! And then when Sam told Dean that he believed the various futures if they killed God, and Dean said "that's good enough for me." Be still my heart...  . I have a hairline trigger for tears at the moment because of these guys, they're making me a mess!
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Wednesday, April 26, 2023 - 2:17 pm
How did you like the "normal" life for the boys?
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Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Wednesday, April 26, 2023 - 3:25 pm
I just watched it! The babies Sam and... Cass, lol!
And "does he think the wrinkled brow and puppy dog eyes is going to work?" lol. It'd still work for me
Good episode, but I don't believe they're only special because of Chuck, I think Chuck just couldn't handle the competition! ;) ;) ;).
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Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Wednesday, April 26, 2023 - 5:51 pm
I've watched e11 and e12 - both excellent episodes - so I am on track for a Friday finale! Are you still pausing?
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Wednesday, April 26, 2023 - 6:03 pm
Do not read this until after you see ep 13:
Spoiler
Click below to view spoiler | Great moment when Dean is talking to Jo (Dean's wife IRL) because the look in their eyes seemed very playful, like they were having so much fun! Jensen's wife then snitched on Jarod's wife and then we learn they were frenemies with some side hustle re: occult artifacts going on.)
So many layers to this show! |
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Wednesday, April 26, 2023 - 6:09 pm
oops double post
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