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Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Friday, February 03, 2023 - 1:19 pm 
In 1978, Ana wanted to kill their parents, so John finally found out Mary was a hunter (he didn’t know before), they had to tell Mary they were her sons. They wanted them to split up, so neither son was born, but she was already pregnant with Dean.
The Archangel Michael wore John suit, told Dean he couldn’t change anything, it was written into the generations of his family, and made John and Mary forget the last few hours, and sent them back to 2010. So back to John and Mary having normal lives. Or trying to.
Kinda heavy for lunchtime viewing. Sorry if this was incoherent. Gotta dash.
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Christy358
Member
07-10-2007
| Friday, February 03, 2023 - 8:20 pm
I repeat, you can only understand time travel if you are a Time Lord.
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Christy358
Member
07-10-2007
| Friday, February 03, 2023 - 8:21 pm
And then the really important question.... Sam or Dean?
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Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Friday, February 03, 2023 - 8:33 pm
Angels do think they know everything, lol! It's strange because they have bad angels, or angels that clearly make mistakes (Uriel was back in the one I just watched, and he was in the wrong again) but when the supposed good angels say something I feel I have to believe them! Blame it on traditional folklore maybe!
I think Cass explicitly said there was no free will this episode. Or words that were close to that. I'm not sure what you mean about destiny being incompatible with that, though. If there is no free will then what happened is pre-ordained or destined from the start, so it seems to me the two are the same.
Btw, in the episode (s5e13) Anna says she was tortured in Heaven. She said something like "all the torture, twice the self righteousness." So Heaven sounds like so much fun. Plus Castiel apologised to her for sending her there, so again, he does make mistakes.
I had to scribble the above notes earlier, because I thought the episode might give clues about The Winchesters timing. From The Winchesters' wiki, it says the show starts on March 23 1972, when John Winchester gets back from Vietnam. The "Then" in this show gave the date Dean went back to the past as April 30, 1973, so about one year later. That's when Mary's parents Deanna and Samuel Campbell were killed by yellow eyes.
So now we have in TW that John knew about the Campbells hunting from 1972, when in Supe he still doesn't know in 1978. In TW John's father Henry is one of the Men of Letters - who seem like The Observers in Fringe or The Talamasca in Anne Rice world - but there's no history of Henry being involved in anything like that (so far) in Supe. We have Dean giving John the letter (March 1972), being reminded of it a bit later when he sees the TW photo, but then not recognising him in 1973. And of course we have only one year for Mary's life to be completely changed die to the murder of her parents.
They are really going to have to do some time travel or Angel/Witch magic to fix all this!
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Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Friday, February 03, 2023 - 8:44 pm
Oh, there was also some reference in this last episode to the episode where the brothers were sent to the future. Anna said something to Castiel about the croatoan virus, and the horsemen of the apocalypse, and it was phrased as if she believed the future the bros saw in that episode was the actual future. I.e. not the Archangel.... was it Zachariah's(??)... invention.
I know that might change too, but for now they seem to be sticking with it.
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Friday, February 03, 2023 - 9:26 pm
" I'm not sure what you mean about destiny being incompatible with that, though."
I see free will as being able to decide for yourself what you choose to do at any point in time.
If you're predestined to do something, then it seems that what you do is decided by those who plot out your destiny, not by your free will.
Besides, the angels say it is Dean's destiny to be Michael's vessel but they insist that Dean accept that role because he has to give permission to Micheal to take his body over as a vessel.
Also, if the angels truly believe Dean is destined
to acquiesce to giving permission, why do the they have a back up plan (the half brother) if Dean says no?
Why are the angels so intent on convincing Dean to give Michael permission, or threatening Dean to force him to give permission, or tricking Dean and Sammy into killing Lilith by saying it would stop the apocalypse when it would do the opposite?
If Dean and Sammy were predestined to kill Lilith and predestined to offer up their bodies as vessels, then why don't the angels just go on a va-cay in the Bahamas and wait for destiny to happen? If the boys are indeed predestined to do something, then that's what will happen. Period.
So why are angels trying to manipulate them into giving permission?
Look at it this way - if Dean has free will he can "just say no" to Michael. Then he doesn't do it. So that means he wasn't really "destined" to do it, right?
Free will trumps destiny...and you can't have both unless you choose to do what you're told is your destiny and choose to give up on saying "No".
Deciding to give up your free will is exercising your free will.
I think I'm running around in circles with this post...
Btw, this is the definition I'm going by:
"What is the true meaning of destiny?
Destiny commonly refers to a specific future or outcome that results from a predetermined or inevitable course of events. The word can also refer to the course of events itself or to the power or force thought to make such things happen. A close synonym for all of these senses of the word destiny is fate."
-Google response to the question, "What is the true meaning of destiny?"
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Friday, February 03, 2023 - 9:37 pm
"I'm not sure what you mean about destiny being incompatible with that, though. If there is no free will then what happened is pre-ordained or destined from the start, so it seems to me the two are the same. "
I think you misread my remark. I wasn't saying that there's "no free will"....just that you can have free will OR you can have pre-ordained destiny, but not both. (unless you freely choose to accept the "destiny" that some stupid conniving angel claims is yours). 
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Friday, February 03, 2023 - 10:04 pm
"They are really going to have to do some time travel or Angel/Witch magic to fix all this!"
I'm embracing the Star Trek Solution.
ST was a chronologically linear story starting with the original series through the movies until the 2009 movie (or maybe "Nemesis"?) at which point they went down a different timeline.
However, when the TV series picked up with "ST Picard" it remained in the new branch of the timeline starting with the 2009 movie (or maybe "Nemesis"?).
Short answer - the TW writers just "went in a different direction" and there will never be any reconciliation or solution to the Supe/TW Dean/parents meeting and/or car buying issue.
It's just an anomaly in the timeline.
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Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Saturday, February 04, 2023 - 5:00 pm
Yes, I misunderstood what you first said, I thought you meant the angels insisted there was no free will (which was therefore compatible with things being predestined).
I think maybe god and therefore the angels want the little humans to believe they're in control. So they make them think there are choices and encourage them to make the "right" choice, knowing that the choice they want has already been made. Or maybe there are key big deal events that are fixed, but they let the little humans make the less significant choices on their own, knowing that there are many paths that lead to the came big deal event, and they just have to keep gently course correcting the humans and they'll get to what they want one way or another, with humans retaining the illusion of control. And the angels' egos want the little humans to get to a big deal event their preferred way, so they fight against other ways, but actually those in-between decisions really are made by humans, because in the grand scheme, they are of little consequence.
But I do get what you're saying, that the angels are constant contradictions, trying so hard to make something they say is pre-ordained actually happen. If it's pre-ordained, there's no need to work for it.
I loved how they crafted the "Kelvin" timeline on in Star Trek, after the Romulan went back in time with that big ship thing! So clever and sneaky at the same time, to be able to reinvent stories in a less restricted way. And in ST: Discovery, we saw that Section 31, the people who are like time police, know of the Kelvin timeline, and that the Prime line and Kelvin line are running concurrently.
In Supernatural maybe the angels - who we've seen are able to pull/push people through time - can change what they need to in the past, to help coerce things their way in the present, creating alternate timelines willy-nilly. And perhaps The Winchesters is just on one of those timelines. Maybe if they get multiple seasons we will find out!
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Saturday, February 04, 2023 - 7:13 pm
At the beginning of s06e20 Castiel says (PP) "I want to tell my story. I'll tell you everything".
He narrates that ep and fills in a lot of gaps and answers questions and it clues us all in to what's been going on in Castiel's head as learns about humanity and how the universe really works.
And in the s06 finale ep we get to see Castiel have an "AHA!" moment and suddenly change his POV about how he perceives the world.
I think one of the final 3 eps in S06 is from Dean's POV...maybe it was part of the Then and Now clips but maybe not. I just remember thinking how cool it was hearing Dean explain a lot of his thoughts about various events. The characters and we viewers all have our individual interpretations of what we see happening on the screen....but hearing a couple of the main characters actually explaining their POV is unsurprisingly delicious. 
I don't think I spoiled anything for you, but hopefully, I made it a little easier for you by letting you know that some major revelations are ahead of you.
BIG THINGS are a'comin'....
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Saturday, February 04, 2023 - 7:33 pm
"I think maybe god and therefore the angels want the little humans to believe they're in control. "
I don't think the angels really care what the humans believe overall, but they do when it comes to their manipulations to get them to do what they want. A lot of them have shown how little regard they have for god's "favorite" creations that they're so jealous of. How could god prefer these bald howler monkeys called humans over angels?.
And they understand that they NEED Sam and Dean to help with their agenda. If they didn't need the boys, they'd just snuff them out....it's like a dangerous game of chicken.
Bottom line - the angels have a pretty passive/aggressive attitude towards humanity and they're treading a fine line between their job descriptions and their actions. They're just using humans as pawns to further their own agenda, but they don't realize that human instinct can overcome and win the game if they aren't careful.
And I should add that I'm not referring to "all" angels or even "all" humans. There are always exceptions.
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Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Saturday, February 04, 2023 - 8:46 pm
Those episodes sound excellent. Especially the Castiel story, he has had the most to learn. I look forward to it!
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Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Thursday, February 09, 2023 - 12:39 pm
I haven’t been able to watch much this week, but did just see s5e16, where Dean and Sam are both killed, and end up finding Joshua in a botanical garden in heaven.
Castiel seems pretty disheartened that god is just another deadbeat dad, as Dean put it.
Also interesting is the more they find out or remember about their actual dad, the worse he is. As Dean said, he only became the perfect dad after he died.
Seemed like not much happened this episode except the memories.
Probably won’t be able to watch tomorrow lunchtime, but I’ll see a few at the weekend.
How many seasons have you now watched?
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Thursday, February 09, 2023 - 6:56 pm
I haven't watched any since I last posted. I finished s06 and hit pause. There was a big development in the s06 finale but it wasn't one of their typical cliffhangers like seeing a major character being tortured in hell!
When I binge an 8, 10, or 13 episode show or miniseries, I tend to watch the whole thing in just a day or two....but I can't stick to a schedule like that with a show that aired for one and a half decades.
Also a few shows I watch are finally coming back after hiatus, preempted, and COVID rules that put a lot on hold. Looks like you're about 27 or so eps behind me. If I wait until were synched up, I'll probably just get pulled back in again and watch a dozen eps in a day or so! LOL
It's tough for me to discuss the show when I'm that far ahead....I know all this stuff that happened but without memorizing the chronology (no homework, please!), it's too easy to spoil stuff.
Btw, a recent show had a scene where Dean and Sammy witnessed an off camera horrific death that may have involved a buzz saw, I had never see an expression like this on Sammy's face before:
(image from the episode)
Here is the full frame shot:
They don't look so dang tough here, do they?
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Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Friday, February 10, 2023 - 1:48 pm
That's quite a wince! I hope to be looking away when that scene comes up for me!
it looks like this court case I'm a juror on might be ending sooner than they said, so there's a slim chance I could catch up with you... before you do another binge! And I am now not needed in court until Wednesday, so I will probably be able to finish S5 by then, with weekend watching and the treadmill (no excuse to skip it if no jury service!).
This morning's one s5e17 had the fake prophet, who ended up being a "••••• of Babylon" (not even sure if that will end up being red dotted!!)! And I'm feeling very sorry for Dean, as he just seems to want to give in, leave it up to everyone else, and just enjoy the apocalypse as much as he can. Sam seems to be coping better. Castiel is a hot drunken mess!
I'm presuming this end of the world ~situation~ will be resolved by the end of the season, as it's getting more and more bleak and can't really be maintained for multiple seasons. I'm not sure the last handful of episodes have been so good, because everything is so dire, but perhaps me watching them in a cold carpark, on an ipad with bad reflections on it, might have affected my viewing. I'd appreciate a more fun one or two right now.
eta: it was red-dotted, lol!
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Friday, February 10, 2023 - 2:12 pm
" I hope to be looking away when that scene comes up for me!"
No worries...it happened off-screen. We only know how bad it was by their perfect expressions.
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Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Friday, February 10, 2023 - 2:20 pm
That's my favourite way of "seeing" gross scenes!
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Friday, February 10, 2023 - 2:44 pm
"And I'm feeling very sorry for Dean, as he just seems to want to give in, leave it up to everyone else, and just enjoy the apocalypse as much as he can. Sam seems to be coping better. Castiel is a hot drunken mess!"
As I see it, Dean is in an "I give up" funk because he's listening to the angels' destiny crap and believing them!
Sammy usually seems more together in situations, not counting losing a soul and/or being addicted to demon blood.
I think Castiel is a mess because he's trying to be a good angel by doing what he's told and not making waves but he's beginning to realize that the angels aren't the loyal soldiers of god he thought they were. He's used to getting his orders from the big man upstairs...who seems to be AWOL these days...and the angels have taken the reins.
Btw, "Rob" was played by Michael Shanks (a main character on Stargate). I never recognized him when I saw this ep last month....he looked a lot different with a beard.
Oh yeah, I learned that this ep, titled "99 Problems", was their 99th episode!
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Friday, February 10, 2023 - 2:56 pm
"That's my favourite way of "seeing" gross scenes!"
These guys are great actors...in that picture, their faces and body language aren't just shocked but they seem to be showing true empathy...they seem to be recoiling as if it was happening to them.
 
Free stock photo
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Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Sunday, February 12, 2023 - 12:10 am
Wow big change at the end of Season 5! They saved the world. Dean might be having his happy ever after. Castiel is an angel again, but seems to have popped back up to heaven. Bobby has his legs.
But now Sam is back but I don't know if it's actually Sam or Lucifer-Sam or something else. Too tired to watch another one tonight to find out but soon!!
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Sunday, February 12, 2023 - 12:28 pm
I had to go back and peek at that ep to remember it. At this point I am only one full season ahead of you.
Yeah, that finale...I remember seeing it when it aired. At the time I wondered if that was the series finale. They did seem to wrap up a lot of stuff....but don't worry, the boys still have sh**storm or two (or three) looming in their future.
But here's a little spoiler to get you thinking about s06e01, a spoiler that doesn't give away any events. It just adds a bit of context and it's revealed pretty quickly anyhow. Let me know if you read it...
Spoiler
Click below to view spoiler | | It opens with the same scenario that season 5 ended with...Dean is with the same people who's door he was knocking on when the s05 finale ended....BUT it's one year later. |
"Too tired to watch another one tonight to find out but soon!!"
LOL You know a show is suspenseful if it wears you out by just watching it!
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Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Sunday, February 12, 2023 - 1:24 pm
Oh that's interesting! If he's had a year of at least partial happiness that's good, but it's going to be even more of a wrench when he's inevitably(?!) dragged away from it!
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Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Sunday, February 12, 2023 - 5:26 pm
Aww poor guy, everything he did in the year reminded him of his past  .
I watched e1 and e2. The Campbells are capturing the monsters and don't want Sam or Dean to know: what do they do with them? Curious.
And I'm not sure how Dean and Lisa's arrangement where Dean just comes back when he can, no expectations, works any better for Lisa's son. He's still going to get attached to a man who is absent. Plus what if Lisa finds a better boyfriend? I'm really surprised Dean allowed himself to stay with them, I mean I understand the urge, but he really should have known they could never be safe with him in their lives.
But less bleak episodes, so that was good! I should be able to watch two or three in the next couple of days, then Wednesday onwards I'm going to have to wait and see.
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Sunday, February 12, 2023 - 11:50 pm
Yeah, Dean is having a tough time with liking the home/family he has with Lisa and Ben, but at the same time worrying about them all the time.
As I recall, in these first several eps of s06, Sammy seemed a bit "off" to me. It's like he acted too casual about things and/or seemed to be just "phoning it in". It really bugged me and I blamed the writers, thinking they just lost their grip on Sammy's personality or something. I thought maybe the writers had changed and the new ones were just not getting it quite right.
It did level out so Sammy seemed to be more like his old self after awhile.
Btw, my favorite ep in the whole series is in this season...I plan on watching it again pretty soon. We get to see a side of the boys we've never ever seen before!
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Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Monday, February 13, 2023 - 10:44 am
I agree about Sam. I’m not sure if it’s meant to be his version of blocking what happened in hell, but he seems too blasé about everything.
The end might have helped explain it, when he told Dean he wanted him back because Dean actually put emotions into what they were doing, jumped in to save people when it’s not entirely wise to do so. I think the Campbell clan were simply hunters, thought of it as a job, little emotion, and Sam had bought into that. Heck the cousins didn’t even seem to have any discernible personalities. Sam needs the pairing with Dean to be a complete person.
I think you mentioned a favorite episode before, any idea what number it is?
I wrote the above early this morning, but it wouldn’t post as the board was in maintenance mode. So now I’ve just watched e3 on the treadmill, and Dean is also concerned that Sam is not himself. I think the not quite believable way Jared is playing it is an actor choice, and not necessarily a good one, as he’s never quite as nuanced as Jensen.
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