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Keldogg
Member
08-12-2005
| Saturday, September 05, 2020 - 5:48 pm 
Not that I have heard.
But I have heard worse than that. Things that some people would not think is demeaning and racially insensitive, but it really is.
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Pschrfhd
Member
05-22-2011
| Saturday, September 05, 2020 - 6:45 pm
"Have any of the other players been described in similarly negative ways?"
Only by us on TVCH, Jimmer... LOL
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Pschrfhd
Member
05-22-2011
| Saturday, September 05, 2020 - 6:47 pm
Strategist - I would classify each of the examples you list as racist.
No gray area there that I can see.
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Strategist
Member
07-01-2014
| Saturday, September 05, 2020 - 7:08 pm
Thanks for the answer.
When asked to be introspective and complete a confidential survey, attendees of my program said that they have personally done some of the things I've listed here. But when asked if they see themselves as racist, most invariably say "no". That's because few people want to be labeled as racist. Often, they believe that they are not racist or biased because they have been indoctrinated by their family, culture, social circles, community, and world to believe the things they say. Some feel like they can't challenge racist behavior when they see it. They need to "fit in" and not rock the boat.
The really good news is that people can change. What I've found is that most people who are willing to participate in discussions like this are often open-minded, ready to learn, and wanting to grow. Allowing those who have experienced racism to speak freely and learning from those expressions is the first step in gaining insight. Bravo to those who have stuck through this discussion even when it made you feel a bit queasy. That's what we need in order to make change.
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Strategist
Member
07-01-2014
| Saturday, September 05, 2020 - 7:20 pm
I don't watch BB close enough to have heard the conversations in as much detail as all of you. But, I do have an introspective question related to Keldogg's post. Not looking for an answer, but I would appreciate if you considered this question thoughtfully: How would you feel if you were described without proof as aggressive, scary, violent, sassy, or a thief?
I know how I felt when I was followed through a store and confronted as a thief. I know how I felt when I had to empty my purse only for them to find that there was nothing of value in it. I know my friends who were horrified when I told them that happened. I know who went back to the store to confront the "security guard". I call that person an ally. We can all be allies for those who need us most.
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Sincebb1
Member
08-22-2005
| Saturday, September 05, 2020 - 7:46 pm
I have had the last situation happen to me. At a major cosmetics store. The security guard also pointed at me and had the WHOLE store looking at me.
And called aggressive and hysterical by a store owner when he was questioned on his guaranteed price policy. I never even raised my voice...
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Meggieprice
Member
07-09-2001
| Saturday, September 05, 2020 - 7:51 pm
When conversations like this happen I start to feel some hope!
Thank you Strategist for your deeply insightful words. I appreciate the gift that your research has brought to us.
ai do not mean that others haver not said things I value highly! All of you have enriched my life today.
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Pschrfhd
Member
05-22-2011
| Saturday, September 05, 2020 - 7:54 pm
And I wanted to be an ally for Bayleigh last night when she tried to explain to Christmas how uncomfortable it made her when she asked Bayleigh if she was encroaching on her physical space.
I'm sure in Chrstmas' mind she was being respectful of Bay's "space," but it made Bay feel as if Xmas was afraid of her. Watching that made me see things from Bay's point of view in a way that probably wouldn't have registered if Bay wasn't self-aware enough to express her feelings clearly.
This happened not very long after another contestant had mistakenly called Bay Day, leaving her to feel that the other houseguests see the two black women as indistinguishable from one another.
She brought me to tears watching her try to get past the hurt she was feeling and not just explode, because after all, she has to get along in order to have any chance of winning the money at the end.
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Bamagirl
Member
08-26-2012
| Saturday, September 05, 2020 - 8:04 pm
Kel, I agree 100% with your last post!
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Strategist
Member
07-01-2014
| Saturday, September 05, 2020 - 8:28 pm
Meggieprice, thank you! I've found this discussion to be enriching for me as well. I will take what I have learned from all of you forward as I try to learn and grow in this area.
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Jimmer
Board Administrator
08-29-2000
| Saturday, September 05, 2020 - 8:59 pm
I have a couple of other questions for those of you who follow the live feeds more closely than I do.
I recall that most of the Posters in the live feed thread were very upset and offended by what many of the houseguests were saying about Janelle. What were some of the words being used about her? Were they using different words about Kaysar?
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Keldogg
Member
08-12-2005
| Saturday, September 05, 2020 - 10:16 pm
Some (especially Dani and Nicole) said rude comments about Janelle but they were not in the same vein. They called her a b**ch, criticized her as a mother, called her a liar for just a few.
Kaysar was called sneaky, condescending and aggressive.
But those criticisms aren't perpetuating a stereotype. And though I believe most of those types of behavior actually stem from their own insecurities.
The racist types of comments come from what I believe is ignorance, a failure to really understand societys ingrained biases and not understanding what white privilege means.
There was one statement that was made by Dani that I felt so offended by, I had to turn off my feeds for awhile. And yet I am going to venture a guess that some people may have heard it and not realized how offensive it was.
She was in a conversation with Day and she told her that she really wanted to adopt a black son. Now some people might think, wow, what a great heart she has, isn't that great.
This is what we call being a "white savior". Its the belief that white people can "save" a black child by bringing them into a white family and environment, therefore saving them from growing up within a black community.
This is not to say that I am against inter-racial adoption because I am not. But everyone I know that has adopted a child of a different race did not begin the adoption process with that as their goal. They just wanted a child. And they made their decision after a whole lot of education and research and willingness to face their own internal biases.
So a white woman telling a black woman they want to adopt a black child, and especially a boy, to me is offensive.
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Pschrfhd
Member
05-22-2011
| Saturday, September 05, 2020 - 10:24 pm
Kel - I missed that on the feeds, but am not surprised that statement came from Dani. She is a strikingly shallow woman, IMO.
I'd be willing to bet Day was every bit as offended as you were, too, but I think she has too much class to let Dani get under her skin.
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Scotty63
Member
06-22-2013
| Sunday, September 06, 2020 - 12:57 am
<77> A white woman wanting to adopt a black boy is offensive? My mother adopted me and a mother couldn’t love a son more than she loves me! <77> Cancel the show if this what it has come too! See what a lousy season does? <77>
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Strategist
Member
07-01-2014
| Sunday, September 06, 2020 - 4:07 am
WRT Dani's comment. You can't win them all. She is very immature and does not understand how loaded and inappropriate her comment was. We are making progress, but we have a long way to go.
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Jimmer
Board Administrator
08-29-2000
| Sunday, September 06, 2020 - 7:16 am
I can see why complaints about white people wanting to adopt black children could be hurtful to black people who have been raised with a loving white family and love their parents. However, it's the reasoning behind the adoption that matters.
White people "rescuing" black people is a well known Hollywood trope. Off-hand I can think of shows like "Different Strokes" and movies like "The Blind Side".
Dani wanting to adopt a child is a good thing. It's when race is brought into it that it becomes problematical.
If Dani were to say, "I want to adopt a child", people would cheer.
If Dani were to specify, "I want to adopt a white child", people would be going huh?
Same thing with her saying she wants to adopt a black child.
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Keldogg
Member
08-12-2005
| Sunday, September 06, 2020 - 8:30 am
Scotty, you misunderstood what I was saying. I do not believe there is anything wrong at all with inter-racial adoption. Hell my family is one entire can of what we call mixed nuts, some of us through birth and some of us through adoption.
But lets be honest here. No white family, especially in 2020, should adopt a black child, especially a male, without working on themselves first, creating a support system for their family and being aware of the problems that will arise. I can give you a laundry list of offensive things that have happened to my white cousin's family who has an adopted black son...and he is only 5!
So yes, I found her comment offensive...especially with some of the other comments she has made.
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Dogdoc
Member
09-29-2001
| Sunday, September 06, 2020 - 8:52 am
Is it considered bad to say you want to do an international adoption.
I don't know about now, but years ago if you wanted to get a baby quicker, you would go international
Even then, it could take up to a year, but that was a lot quicker than a US adoption.
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Keldogg
Member
08-12-2005
| Sunday, September 06, 2020 - 9:06 am
Personally, I think if someone said they wanted to do an international adoption, I would not find it offensive. I would imagine they had actually started the work towards adoption and been looking at all options.
I don't know how many people on this board have experienced the adoption process today, either themselves or through a relative. It is really hard work and a long process. It usually involves 9 months of hard work just to get to the point where you get approved to even be considered as eligible to be an adoptive parent. Then you wait. Then you may be one of 3 families that might be considered for a specific child. Then more waiting to see if you are matched with that child. If not, you go back into the waiting pool.
The more restrictions you place on what you can handle (specific race, age, gender, medical issues etc), the longer the wait.
So opting to go international can lessen the waiting time but its still a difficult process.
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Dogdoc
Member
09-29-2001
| Sunday, September 06, 2020 - 9:55 am
Thank you, Keldogg.
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Grooch
Member
06-16-2006
| Sunday, September 06, 2020 - 10:34 am
I listen to Clear Air on NPR on my way home from work. A few weeks ago, Terry Gross, the host, had on Kristen Howerton who wrote a memoir Rage Against the Minivan. She is white and she adopted 2 black children. The interview is about her reflections about it. It was a really good interview.
Here's the link to it. A Mother Reflects On Privilege, Adoption And Parenting 'Without Perfection'
I think actually listening to it is better than just reading the transcript. She talks a lot about what is being discussed here.
Keldogg, Strategist and Scotty, if you read or listen to it, I'd be interested in your thoughts about what she has to say. If she is pretty much on the mark or way off on things. Thanks in advance.
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Sassyza
Member
09-03-2009
| Sunday, September 06, 2020 - 11:01 am
I had the first dose of the Shingle shot and have experienced every side effect possible - it took everything out of me for a few days.
I have now caught up on all the comments. I started this thread and asked a question about comments being made in Live Feeds as to what was going on in the house and it expanded out to our real world. Your real life stories and experiences adds to our understanding of what we ourselves do not experience and I thank all for sharing.
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Keldogg
Member
08-12-2005
| Sunday, September 06, 2020 - 11:10 am
YES YES YES!
I have actually followed her on Twitter, so I am familiar with her writings.
I would recommend that everyone both listen AND read it. Listen to hear the nuance but read so that you can pause and think about the important points that she makes.
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Strategist
Member
07-01-2014
| Sunday, September 06, 2020 - 1:41 pm
I concur!!! What a worthy interview for all of us to listen to.
Kristen Howerton's website is https://rageagainsttheminivan.com/
Keldogg suggests that we listen to hear the nuance. She makes so many great points it would be impossible to cover them all. There is so much to unpack, but I'll suggest some lessons from it:
In the interview, she says "adoption needs to be ethical." she talks about how you decide to adopt. The agency asked questions like "are you open to" adopt different races, which are different from what Dani said "I wanna adopt a black son." Do you hear the difference?
Kristen says: "I would later learn that I was very naive and clueless...I had a steep learning curve ahead of me...And I just did have this naive thought that transracial adoption would be one way of fighting racism." Is there a lesson from this?
She also talks about "more troubling aspects of white privilege" which ties into an earlier discussion that many of us had."I can reasonably assume that if I get pulled over, I won't be yanked out of the car and placed on the ground even if I got mouthy, or that I can reasonably assume that I'm not going to be shadowed and followed in a store and thought of as maybe someone who's going to steal something." Does this help you better understand the privilege white people have?
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Strategist
Member
07-01-2014
| Sunday, September 06, 2020 - 1:51 pm
For those of you who are not able to listen to the full audio or read the transcript, I want to highlight one portion that might speak to you if you are open to learning about the 24x7 fears of black people. Gross asks about an incident when she called the police and what could happen when they saw a white woman with what looked like black intruders:
The cops show up. My kids are still asleep. They weren't woken up by the noise. And the cops go into the backyard, and then they decide they want to come into the house. And they come into the house with guns drawn, and my son hears this, bolts out of bed and runs to my bedroom. And I just had that realization of if these cops had been in the hallway at that time, which thankfully they weren't, they were in the living room, but if they'd been in the hallway at that time with their guns drawn looking for an intruder and watched a black preteen who was as tall as them run down the hallway in a house where maybe they weren't expecting to see a black male. That could have ended very badly.
And for me, that was a real scary lesson in thinking through how I interact with the police with two black sons. You know, that, first of all, maybe I shouldn't have called the police. But second of all, if I was in a situation where it really felt necessary, that I should have described the makeup of my family to the dispatcher and then again when they arrive. Like, I should have - that should have been top of mind. There are two black children in this house - so that everyone was on the same page of what to expect, but I didn't do that. That was a blind spot for me.
Does this story help you understand why some black people are reticent to call the police?
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