| Author |
Message |
Lexie_girl
Member
07-30-2004
| Saturday, November 16, 2019 - 4:31 am 
Strategist, the cameras ARE there 24/7 (Jeff has said this many times). There is a film crew at the camp even at night when they are sleeping. And that's what concerns me - that the cameras are there 24/7 and they've got nothing on tape.
Karuuna - ITA with all of your posts. This entire situation leaves me feeling skeevy.
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Strategist
Member
07-01-2014
| Saturday, November 16, 2019 - 5:31 am
Thanks for the information on the cameras. No matter. There is a lot left on the cutting room floor and we'll never know what really happened.
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Dogdoc
Member
09-29-2001
| Saturday, November 16, 2019 - 8:35 am
Well, didn't we see him rubbing her entire leg then they were sleeping next to each other?
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Saturday, November 16, 2019 - 9:13 am
We do not know everything that happened. Therefore, we can't make the assumption that we saw was everything in that one show. And we certainly cannot make the assumption that Kellie exaggerated.
Oddly enough, it seems like it must be okay to assume Kelle is telling the truth without seeing EVERYTHING, but not okay to assume that she might be overly sensitive. The other women made clear that it wasn't bothering them in confessionals.
I don't doubt that her disturbance was real, I just think she has some history that must play into her sensitivity. And what we did see showed she CLEARLY exaggerated what happened. My heart does go out to her, there is something that happened to her, but not likely on Survivor. And she has not healed. That's my opinion.
And that's the problem with making mere touching into an "assault." It gets to the point that you can't ever touch anyone without being worried.
And that's not healthy for society.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Saturday, November 16, 2019 - 9:18 am
On Naked and Afraid, they ask permission.
No, they don't always ask permission. Making for some interesting interactions. Heck, they often don't even ask at the initial meeting when they are hugging.
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Strategist
Member
07-01-2014
| Saturday, November 16, 2019 - 9:20 am
I didn't assume that she was telling the truth or lying. I just based my opinion on what I saw and I agreed that there is likely more to the story.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Saturday, November 16, 2019 - 9:32 am
There is always more.
That's why I don't like what happened with Dan. These accusations can be life altering, and when they aren't true, and they are *exaggerated* that's unarguably unfair.
We do know that at least on two occasions, Kelle exaggerated the contact.
We also know that the other women exaggerated as well, and then recanted. One unabashedly admitted it was all "game play" and she NEVER felt unsafe.
We also know that if Dan wasn't a touchy feely guy - no issue.
And we also know that the same "touchy feely" from Janet and from Tommy wasn't a problem.
And bottom line, that's the problem with these situations. It has to clearly cross a sexual line for ME to consider it "creepy." Otherwise it's just normal variation with what people are or are not comfortable with and with whom.
Bottom line again: grace. If you're uncomfortable, tell the person to stop. They may well not hear it the first time. You may have to remind them.
But don't convict them of being some kind of pervert for touching your hair in a fatherly way, or grabbing your toes in a silly way. That's just not right.
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Strategist
Member
07-01-2014
| Saturday, November 16, 2019 - 9:35 am
Who called him a pervert?
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Saturday, November 16, 2019 - 9:44 am
Lots of people on the crazy internet.
Or here - saying people were blaming the "victims" - what does that make him if the women are "victims?"
Or calling him a "creepy uncle", how is that different from pervert?
Or saying if he doesn't stop after requests to stop, then it would be "assault."
Choose your word, doesn't matter. All of it was too much given the situation and the evidence we have.
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Strategist
Member
07-01-2014
| Saturday, November 16, 2019 - 10:27 am
So nobody here called him a pervert.
If someone did what I saw him do even after I asked him to stop, I would say that I was being victimized. If that person did it repeatedly, I might say that he was assaulting me. It's all a matter of perspective.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Saturday, November 16, 2019 - 10:31 am
Semantics. 
What difference does it make if you call him an "assaulter," a perpetrator or a pervert? To be clear, it makes no difference to ME.
At any rate, there is not enough evidence (from what *I* have seen) to call him any of those things.
As I keep saying, we need to have some grace. I did not see any malice in his behavior. Intent does matter.
And some are saying that she did tell him once to stop touching her. I don't recall that, it may be true.
But sometimes old habits die hard and you may have to repeat yourself. So just repeat.
And again, I don't think ANYTHING that I saw him do was worthy of being called assault. Annoying, perhaps. Harrassment even. Lacking boundaries.
But not assault. Not by any stretch. You'd be hardpressed to find any US prosecutor to take that seriously.
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Dipo
Member
04-23-2002
| Saturday, November 16, 2019 - 11:12 am
That is why this annoys me. We have had this same issue on other seasons, it is usually the young women taking issue with the "older" men. They don't have an issue with the "younger" men cuddling.
I feel like Survivor producers manipulated this as well due to the current climate.
PS. I am not saying that Kellee is not true to her feelings, it is what she felt, just don't feel it was an assault and still can't believe the other women used it for game play.
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Strategist
Member
07-01-2014
| Saturday, November 16, 2019 - 11:27 am
We've all been manipulated by Survivor more than once. Whatever happened, we'll never know.
Just for the record, although I'm advocating for Kellee, I have never said that I saw any malice in Dan's behavior and I agree that intent does matter. I'm not comfortable with what the other young women did in this situation. I have come away with loads of respect for Janet and Jamal.
My biggest takeaway is that we don't know it all and we probably never will.
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Pamy
Member
01-01-2002
| Saturday, November 16, 2019 - 11:52 am
Dogdoc, yes we did see him put his arm on someone's leg during the night but I thought it was Missy not Kellee...but I could be wrong. He could have been sleeping and not even know he did but the camera man caught it and they showed it.
So I'm thinking if there was more video of him touching we would have seen it on the show, it wouldnt have ended up on the cutting room floor ESPECIALLY since in editing they already knew how they were going to be going with this storyline
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Pamy
Member
01-01-2002
| Saturday, November 16, 2019 - 11:55 am
Kar, you said
And some are saying that she did tell him once to stop touching her. I don't recall that, it may be true.
saying 'it may be true' infers you dont believe me. it WAS in the first 1 or 2 eps this season. I'm sure there is a way to rewatch to see for yourself
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Dogdoc
Member
09-29-2001
| Saturday, November 16, 2019 - 3:10 pm
Pamy, thank you. I wasn't sure whose leg it was.
I still stand by what I said. Someone should not touch you. You shouldn't have to say "Don't do that!"
Why did he grabs somebody's toes.
I thought he was aggressive when he went for Kellee's hair. He was reaching his hand into it
He was GOING OUT OF HIS WAY to touch. It was not during game play.
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Jimmer
Board Administrator
08-29-2000
| Saturday, November 16, 2019 - 4:31 pm
In all of the thousands of hours (side note: eek!) of Reality TV (BB, Survivor, etc.) that I have watched, when I’ve seen people touch each other, I can’t recall even a single time when the person doing the touching specifically and clearly asked for permission first. I’m sure it’s happened on rare occasions but it’s definitely not the norm.
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Dogdoc
Member
09-29-2001
| Saturday, November 16, 2019 - 4:41 pm
It would be nice if someone would ask first if they were going to ruffle your hair or rub your arm or lay on top of you.
A lot of people think they are doing the other person a favor by paying attention to them and touching them.
Some of us hate it.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Saturday, November 16, 2019 - 7:24 pm
saying 'it may be true' infers you dont believe me. it WAS in the first 1 or 2 eps this season. I'm sure there is a way to rewatch to see for yourself
Nope. It doesn't infer that at all. I just didn't see it myself, so cannot claim MYSELF that it's true.
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Juju2bigdog
Member
10-27-2000
| Saturday, November 16, 2019 - 7:34 pm
Agree with Pamy, during the first couple episodes there was a movement building to vote Dan out, and several of the woman were annoyed with him being too handsy. Oh! I bet it was when Molly was still in the game. She was one of the offended parties. There was video illustrating the complaints. In one of the past 2-3 episodes there was video of Missy complaining about his hands on her when sleeping and accompanying video of said hands on a sleeping human form.
We are all watching the same program, right? I guess maybe Pamy and I are watching on east coast feeds with headphones and closed captioning and probably no distractions. I don't recall everything these days like I used to, but I don't miss much of the storyline.
I am sure if we are patient, some Survivor fan somewhere will do a compilation of Dan's greatest moments.
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Seamonkey
Moderator
09-07-2000
| Saturday, November 16, 2019 - 9:48 pm
With Pamy and Juju that there was footage about Kellee being touched and complaining.
Molly, hmm? Maybe her complaint added to what went her out?
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Seamonkey
Moderator
09-07-2000
| Saturday, November 16, 2019 - 11:25 pm
https://www.usmagazine.com/entertainment/news/survivor-cast-jeff-probst-speak-out-after-metoo-episode/
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Dogdoc
Member
09-29-2001
| Sunday, November 17, 2019 - 5:19 am
I think some of Dan's behavior was unacceptable.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Sunday, November 17, 2019 - 9:48 am
From the above article:
or Dan, while it was “very clear he was making some of the women uncomfortable,” by embellishing their stories, Missy and Elizabeth turned the situation into something else. “It put Dan in an unfair light and further complicated everything. Now the story has taken on a life of its own with several conflicting perspectives.”
That's why we need to keep this in perspective.
I don't think Dan had ill intent, just poor boundaries. That doesn't make this an "assault", and as I said before no prosecutor would see it that way. Making someone "uncomfortable" is not assault. It is still wrong.
I think we need to be clear about our words.
However, Survivor is like a job, and they did exactly what an HR department should do. Talk to everyone, and warn the person who was crossing boundaries.
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Pamy
Member
01-01-2002
| Sunday, November 17, 2019 - 11:05 am
Kar, I agree.
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