| Author |
Message |
Naja
Member
06-28-2003
| Monday, January 15, 2024 - 9:14 am 
RN That's such a good idea about using a different word. But no way hit him on the nose. It makes him worse. He switches his nip aim to your hand. I tried.
I told the pit mom to put the additional charge in the tip so I can keep it all instead of the company getting some.
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Naja
Member
06-28-2003
| Monday, January 15, 2024 - 9:17 am
RN I may write to Cesar Millan 
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Naja
Member
06-28-2003
| Monday, January 15, 2024 - 9:38 am
RN Want to hear some scary pit bull sounds? Believe it or not, the growls are coming the friendlier one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RUV_jgnevo
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Monday, January 15, 2024 - 9:39 am
RN, oh, please not Cesar Milan... there are many stories about his dog Junior biting people and even killing smaller dogs. He really had no clue.
Keep a toy on you. When he goes to nip you, throw the toy or put the toy in the way. See if you can distract him that way. Also, notice what makes him nip. Is he trying to get your attention? Is he redirecting because he's over aroused because of the other dogs. Figuring out the why is the key to diminishing the behavior. How old is he? For younger dogs, a high pitched "ouch" (like a dog yelp) can deter them. For some, it makes it worse.
Separating is a good plan, if that's working, it may well be over arousal. I'd mention this to the owner and suggest she get some trainer help.
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Naja
Member
06-28-2003
| Monday, January 15, 2024 - 9:44 am
RN YES! When he nips he is excited and is trying to make me play!
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Monday, January 15, 2024 - 9:45 am
RN, I just watched that video. Not sure if you want my advice, but I'd separate them from whatever dog was being growled at. For everyone's safety. It's not the growling that worries me, it's the body language... that's a challenge, not a play invitation.
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Naja
Member
06-28-2003
| Monday, January 15, 2024 - 9:52 am
RN That's how Max sounds when he's trying to get Patsy to play with him when she has no interest in it. He gets mad at her. I don't usually let it get to that loud, but I let it go on a little longer for the video.
I realized the yellow dog was growling too when he was playing with the rope.
eta: I threw them all out in the cold right after that.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Monday, January 15, 2024 - 10:01 am
RN, again, it wasn't the growling-- since by itself it's not a good indicator. It's the whale eyes and high tail wag, and stiff body. Signs of dominance/challenge. Just be careful, you're right not to let it go on.
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Naja
Member
06-28-2003
| Monday, January 15, 2024 - 10:05 am
RN Another weird thing is Max only acts that way when the yellow one is in the room. If it's just Max and my dogs, they are almost lubby dubby. Enter yellow dog and all hell breaks loose.
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Naja
Member
06-28-2003
| Monday, January 15, 2024 - 10:24 am
RN Wow, I had no idea Cesar's dog Junior was viscous! On tv he seemed like a marshmallow! I can't believe I hadn't heard this before.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQVWaiW3zzU
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Monday, January 15, 2024 - 10:41 am
RN, yeah, he wasn't the trainer he was promoted to be. In the later court case, he said that he wasn't liable because essentially "dogs are dangerous." He did eventually settle out of court, so it never went to trial.
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Naja
Member
06-28-2003
| Monday, January 15, 2024 - 11:10 am
RN I've decided to be a lot more careful with these pit bulls now. If anything happened to Dolly or Patsy, I don't know what I'd do.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Monday, January 15, 2024 - 1:48 pm
RN, Naja, I think that's wise. And if you keep sitting them, I would not take any smaller dogs at the same time. They just sound a bit unruly, and even my lab loses her mind when a dog screams in pain and attacks them... and she is the sweetest girl you can imagine.
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Naja
Member
06-28-2003
| Monday, January 15, 2024 - 3:00 pm
RN I take care of a Siberian Husky from Jan 18-27, and I have the pit bulls again on Jan 21 just for a single daycare. I think I'll keep the Husky on the first floor that day with my girls, and keep the pits upstairs.
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Seamonkey
Moderator
09-07-2000
| Monday, January 15, 2024 - 3:38 pm
I only had multiple Labradors and at the shelter I volunteered with cats and took every training they required and every extra training possible, but I got to take several of the trainings with the dog behaviorist they used and .. Karuuna is the one here with real life experience..
I worry that they tear up toys in play. I know this seems to be an accepted thing with pits, but seems like it promotes behavior that could transfer to living beings with bad consequences.
But the biting ...
If the darker one behaves differently when the yellow one is present, could he be protective of his brother? Asking Karuuna also.
Would a muzzle be useful?
Good that you have ways to separate dogs, Naja.
I hope that these dogs can get some good training, but their owners would need training as well, obviously.
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Naja
Member
06-28-2003
| Monday, January 15, 2024 - 4:06 pm
RN The pit mom tipped me $50 and left this review:
"I am so happy with Naja and she took great care of my boys. She was super flexible and even was willing to keep them until midnight (even though I told her 10pm). I am so grateful to have found her and my boys were so excited every time they realized we were on our way to her house. If I could give 10 stars, I would."
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Monday, January 15, 2024 - 4:12 pm
RN, Almost all dogs, no matter how sweet you think they are, can engage in pack aggression, once one dog starts it. It's more likely that the dark dog thinks of the yellow one as his "pack" and that's what over excites him and triggers him. Like I said, the behavior in the video was concerning. Had Dolly (?) challenged him back, rather than appeasing him, it could easily have escalated. When I see that behavior, I immediately separate. Not worth the risk.
Sea, muzzles need to be trained/desensitized, and that can take several weeks, so likely wouldn't help in this situation. Plus, unless it's properly fitted, and the right kind of muzzle, it doesn't necessarily stop biting.
Most owners (not just of pits) have no idea how to assess dog behavior properly. I got into a long discussion with our executive director today about buying an impact crate for one of our anxious, destructive dogs. She said that many people that review them say their dogs are calm in them. I noted that if the dogs were calm in crates, they wouldn't need the impact crates. And I would guess that for most of the owners, what they are seeing are shut down hopeless dogs, not "calm" dogs.
As an emergency tool, I'm okay with them, but dogs with separation anxiety or confinement anxiety need training and possibly meds... not inescapable crates that destroy them mentally.
Dog behavior analysis can be a hard sell, even with people that love them.
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Naja
Member
06-28-2003
| Monday, January 15, 2024 - 4:22 pm
RN If this makes a difference, they've had the yellow one since just May, and the dark one since 2017. She says that neither have ever hurt a person (other than the nipping) or another animal. They even have a couple cats.
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Seamonkey
Moderator
09-07-2000
| Monday, January 15, 2024 - 4:29 pm
That makes sense about muzzles. I never used them, but we also didn't mix our dogs to play with others and they had each other. We went to lots of dog shows, matches, field and obedience events but at shows everyone was on lead and pretty well trained and in obedience there was off lead but dogs were trained. Field tests had them off lead one way a time.
But I do see dogs with some sort of muzzle being walked here.
I agree that pack aggression is a thing. In all the years with my labs we had one incident that I didn't witness (I was away at a show overnight) but my then husband had let 5 or 6 out in our yard. We had chain link fencing (in a canyon where any fencing was quite unusual) and a dog running loose came up to the fence and started a fence fight. Ours got agitated and turned on one of their own. He said (after first blaming me) that when he broke it up all of them seemed like they came out of a trance and were friendly, but one required some vet care. So it can happen. It never happened again, but it did happen. 💔
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Seamonkey
Moderator
09-07-2000
| Monday, January 15, 2024 - 4:34 pm
I hope their cats have good escape routes to higher places..
...
That was a nice review.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Monday, January 15, 2024 - 4:38 pm
RN, Naja, it's interesting information, but I still stand by the behavior I saw in the video. Dog body language is clear when you know how to read it. I don't know what was going on before that happened, or what the other dogs were doing, so hard to know what triggered it. But whale eye (so much of the white showing), that tail wag and stiff body are all signs of challenge. Sometimes a dog will challenge and then back down, sometimes not. It's just wise not to push it, no one wants to take that chance.
I would also note, and this is just a personal view, I don't like that that the dark one has been nipping for this long and it hasn't been addressed with training. What if that were a little kid's face? 
I've just read too many horror stories of said little kid faces, or even people who have had their dogs and cats for YEARS, and then one day it goes south. I think people just aren't reading the signs.
Heck, I saw a video on Facebook today of a little kid putting her face in the face of a Cane Corso. Uh, no. And the parents thought it was funny, even tho the dog was avoiding (turning its head to the side), and licking lips. Clear signs of discomfort.
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Naja
Member
06-28-2003
| Monday, January 15, 2024 - 4:40 pm
RN It's the yellow one that nips. The dark one they've had for years is a big love bug. But it sure is hard to tell that from the video.
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Seamonkey
Moderator
09-07-2000
| Monday, January 15, 2024 - 4:41 pm
Karuuna description at 10:01am, the whale eyes, Body and tail action. The behavior videos and lectures showed those and discussed them as very concerning... Classic.
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Tntitanfan
Member
08-02-2001
| Monday, January 15, 2024 - 5:21 pm
Were you keeping the pits to train one or both, you would need to expose your student to a target situation so that you could work with him on eradicating it. However, that is not the case. You are a caregiver - and obviously a VERY superior one - NOT a trainer, so your obligation should be self-limited to CARE! Dolly and Patsy are not included in the deal -
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Monday, January 15, 2024 - 6:14 pm
RN, Naja, they've had the yellow one since May, which is more than enough time to have dealt with the nipping. I hope it's going better for you, with keeping them separated and using a toy as a distractor.
Keep in mind, that both of these dogs are not well socialized or balanced. For example, my dogs will make play invites with people by happy tail wags (not the stiff ones of the black pit), or maybe raising a paw, maybe a play bow. They don't nip. I'm sure it's the same with yours!
And if they are inviting another dog to play, they might give a play growl, and play bow, with a little dip away, and then back to entice the other dog to play. But when that is ignored by the other dog, they walk away. In fact, my son's dog is so well balanced that he can look at another dog, and decide if that dog will play with him or not before he begins a play bow or play bids. If they don't look back at him, and tail wag, he'll just walk away then.
So, there's just some concerning behavior. Not to say that they would ever be a danger to any one or another dog, but if I were assessing these dogs for the rescue, I would track them into socialization/safety training while awaiting adoption. And if they were adopted before that was complete, I would let the adopters know that, and that they needed to continue/complete the training. And until the training was complete, we'd hand them a sheet of precautions that include things like crating or separating when leaving them, including from each other and/or other pets; and ZERO unsupervised play time.
The thing is, it's easier to prevent a bad experience, then it is to fix a dog once one has happened. So that's why we exercise so much caution. Because once a bite has happened, either a person (breaking skin) or another dog (drawing blood), then we almost always have to euthanize. And that's the worst possible outcome.
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