| Author |
Message |
Lilfair
Member
07-09-2003
| Saturday, August 29, 2015 - 12:49 pm 
Josh is a hot mess. He's the antithesis of the type of guy I want my daughter to be with. How he got to this way does t really matter. For me his "flaws" flow onto his parents. If they didn't allow his deviant sexual behavior against his 4 sisters and baby sitter to go untreated or reported to authorities in a timely manner, they could have prevented Anna's heartache. Although I'm sure it will work out, when Jim Bob and Michelle think enough time has passed, they'll pitch a redemption show to the Networks.
Not sure it's true but in an article I read it stated that on the AM account one of his preferences was brother sister love. All kinds of disgusting.
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Seamonkey
Moderator
09-07-2000
| Saturday, August 29, 2015 - 1:35 pm
ETA: clearly I misread the articles about this to include child porn rather than legal porn. I don't want to remove this because I'm responsible for writing it, but do want to tag it as inaccurate and unfair.<sea>
Jimmer what is legal about child porn? And trafficking of same or even having it on one's computer? Yes the viewer of child porn isn't directly touching a child in person but he or she is helping to support an industry that indeed hurts children.
Kind of like well it is better that he isn't torturing animals because he is paying to view abstract animals being tortured?
Or maybe a kid suffered only once and whole groups of people can get off on that one kid?
I'm sure I'm misunderstanding something here.
====================
As for faith based rehab.. if the flavor of faith running the rehab is the same as quiverfull then it still espouses subjugation of women to men just as a bottom line, so I question how much learning/growth will appear.
Just turning the head and intoning "Nike" to avoid lusting after females seems not to have helped much. (that was something the Duggars set up in attampts to keep their boys on the straight and narrow).
Blame the girls for having a bare leg or arm..
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Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Saturday, August 29, 2015 - 2:05 pm
Jimmer what is legal about child porn? And trafficking of same or even having it on one's computer? Yes the viewer of child porn isn't directly touching a child in person but he or she is helping to support an industry that indeed hurts children.
You are misunderstanding something! To the best of my knowledge there was no child porn on his computer nor did he say that he viewed child porn. If there was he would have been arrested.
I'm shocked that you would even remotely consider that I would say that would be an improvement, more acceptable or okay. 
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Seamonkey
Moderator
09-07-2000
| Saturday, August 29, 2015 - 2:52 pm
I agree, totally misunderstanding and it sure makes more sense because I could NOT remotely think you'd think that..
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Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Saturday, August 29, 2015 - 3:53 pm
Thank you, Sea.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Saturday, August 29, 2015 - 3:56 pm
. I doubt if he will be clinically diagnosed in that rehab, nor will he have his brain checked out as Karuuna brought up brain theories sometimes being a cause in some instances because biology could be problem in some cases.
Biology is part of the problem for alcoholics also, but AA still works. Because the brain may be involved, as I've said, doesn't mean the brain isn't malleable in some ways. And you don't always need to treat with medication for that to happen.
All that matters to me is that he gets treatment that works for HIM. If religious based treatment is the best fit for him and it works, I'm fine with that. I'm all about results. 
I'm pretty sure their program, from having viewed their website, involves a lot more than chanting "nike". That's not really a fair criticism.
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Muffin
Member
08-29-2007
| Saturday, August 29, 2015 - 4:53 pm
I also read the website very carefully. No recovering sex addicts there as mentors.
I feel most sorry for Anna, who is left to care for 4 small children, under the age of 5 including an infant. By herself, unless Michelle will give up one of her older daughters to help Anna. Not so sure whether Michelle would be willing to give up one of the daughters who might be a pseudo mom to the others, or the cook, cleaner, school teacher. I believe Gramma Duggar does the laundry.
Maybe Jill will come back from her Missionary work. She can go online again to ask for funding to pay for her trip home.
This family makes me sick! People sent the Dillard's money and they were able to afford to fly home to attend the Bates wedding. JB and Michelle taught their children well. Ask ( for money) and you shall receive!
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Saturday, August 29, 2015 - 5:19 pm
Muffin, first of all they have more than one website. And if you are talking about hte men's home, assuming that's where he went, you are still wrong about the recovered sex addict, you do have to read between the lines a bit. The Reformers specifically treat addiction to porn at their men's facility, and one of their male mentors is a recovered porn or sex addict.
In fact, the founder, and also working at the men's home, Steve Curington, co-authored a book on recovery from porn along with Dr. George Crabb, who has done extensive writing on Christian recovery from various addictions, including porn.
They also boast an 80% success rate, which is quite high if it is accurate.
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Muffin
Member
08-29-2007
| Saturday, August 29, 2015 - 6:50 pm
Hopefully it will work for Josh. By the way, Steve Curington is no longer working there, he died in 2010.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Saturday, August 29, 2015 - 7:21 pm
Odd that they have him listed on the staff page then. Maybe just to give a nod to their founder?
However, it is quite clear that they treat porn addiction and have experience in doing so, and that they use materials that he co-wrote, including those on porn addiction.
I hope it works for him also. And others. I'm for any treatment that works (within ethical bounds), and I find it's often based to treat someone within their world view, rather than try to force a different world view on them.
Addiction is very resistant to treatment, and I've always been fascinated by the idea that, as I noted, the faith-based criminal programs are so very effective.
I wish there was more research on WHY it was so effective, but unfortunately, a lot of scientists turn their noses up at the idea of anything about faith being studied.
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Dovez
Member
08-27-2005
| Saturday, August 29, 2015 - 9:14 pm
This is an interesting article on Reformers Anon from the religious website Patheos. I wonder just how beneficial "treatment" will be with these people in charge.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2015/08/breaking-leadership-of-josh-duggars-treatment-center-allegedly-involved-in-sex-abuse-coverup.html
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Muffin
Member
08-29-2007
| Saturday, August 29, 2015 - 10:25 pm
Almost everything in that article falls in line with the Duggar's way of raising their children. Building up their school buildings is part of the therapy at RU. All their buildings and extensions are build by the "students" at the school, which is stated on their web site.
Their teachings are the same as Gothard's are.
So will Josh Duggar return in 6 months with calloused hands from construction or will he return rehabilitated? I choose the calloused hands but not rehabilitated.
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Lilfair
Member
07-09-2003
| Saturday, August 29, 2015 - 10:52 pm
No surprises.
http://www.rawstory.com/2015/08/duggars-rehab-facility-run-by-pastor-accused-of-protecting-sexual-predator-from-prosecution-report/
Smh.
The almighty God fearing Duggars aren't really great at making good choices where Josh is concerned...or are they???? He should be rehabbed in about 6 months and the redemption shows will be pitched.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Sunday, August 30, 2015 - 9:26 am
There is nothing wrong with having physical labor be *part* of the recovery process.
That first article, the relationships/accusations are so tenuous they require some big leaps to reach conclusions.
Viewing it through their lens, is that God is the decider not the justice system. It's not that they are protecting bad behavior, is that they believe people have reformed and been forgiven.
However, I agree that those who committed crimes should serve for them. That doesn't mean the church should either protect them from prosecution OR abandon them. They believe in redemption, and so do I.
However, believing in redemption does not mean they condone abuse or that they aren't good at treatment of offenders. Two different things.
I am disturbed about the Halloween "party" accusations. If that's true, that's deeply troubling.
Finally, I will say that the conclusion they reach that addiction is treated simply by bible study and labor is wrong - I've perused some of the materials they sell and use and it's more complex than that - with a heavy reliance on Biblical passages to lead to transformation.
Nothing wrong with that, if it works. As it does for criminals.
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Ophiliasgrandma
Member
09-04-2001
| Sunday, August 30, 2015 - 11:24 am
Kar, I just read that Oliver Sacks has passed away.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Sunday, August 30, 2015 - 11:37 am
OG, I know! I saw that too... made me so sad. He was a great pioneer in the field of neurology and made it so accessible to everyone. I'm sending my prayers up for him and his partner today.
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Seamonkey
Moderator
09-07-2000
| Sunday, August 30, 2015 - 12:55 pm
Sad.. he really educated those fortunate enough to read his books and of course the movie reached more people.
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Muffin
Member
08-29-2007
| Monday, August 31, 2015 - 11:53 am
I don't follow studies and statistics on reforming criminals in jail, although I have been reading this past week about all this. I don't see a comparison to Josh at all. Josh does not need "work" nor does he need to bring religion into his therapy. He is not a criminal and his rehab does not need to be compared to criminals in prison who probably did not grow up in the same type of families as Josh did. He has had religion and faith shoved down his throat since the day he was born.
His rehab should be focusing on what he did when he was a teenager and why he went searching for different sex partners instead of his wife. He never got over his sexual curiosities from when he was a teenager. He was not allowed to look at the opposite sex, he was not allowed to express his interest in sex, so he ending up molesting the only females he could get his hands on. It was his strict upbringing that brought him to this point. Drumming his faith down his throat again and getting redemption now still won't work on someone like Josh.
He was basically forced to marry at 19 if he ever was going to even be able to hold a girls hand never mind discovering a female's anatomy.
Work and bible study is not what Josh needs. He needs to know why it was wrong to do what he did, and not be under the impression that if he studies the bible more and receives "redemption" then all is right in the world.
I don't see comparing his problem to those of criminals in jail as the same thing at all.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Monday, August 31, 2015 - 12:05 pm
Given his current behavior, I think it is more likely that Josh had some kind of deficit in brain formation, that lead to a particular obsession with things sexual.
Yes, that should have been treated as an adolescent.
But yes, it can also be treated as an adult, and yes, faith-based treatment programs can be very effective.
And yes, it is the same thing as criminals, because either a) you believe it is caused by upbringing in both or b) you believe it is caused by both brain development gone wrong (criminals often have deficits in the prefrontal cortex as well), accompanied by life experiences.
And either way, you can treat them the same way. The reason faith-based programs work well with criminals is because it teaches them responsibility and self-control - the exact same things that Josh is apparently lacking.
So, yeah, they are very similar issues from a treatment approach. Empathy and self control are lacking in both cases. However they got there.
Whether THIS program will help or not, I don't know. But faith-based programs are very effective in both cases.
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Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Monday, August 31, 2015 - 12:08 pm
Muffin, Since you clearly think religious beliefs won't work, how would you explain to Josh that what he did (with respect to his wife and the adult porn) was wrong in a way that would stop him from doing it again?
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Lilfair
Member
07-09-2003
| Monday, August 31, 2015 - 12:28 pm
Jimmer , if josh or anyone else needs religion to understand cheating on your spouse is wrong then marriage is really doomed and it won't be the gays fault.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Monday, August 31, 2015 - 12:41 pm
Actually, it's not that he didn't know it was wrong, of course he did. That's why he used a secret website for his liaisons, just as 37 million other people did.
What he has a problem with is controlling his own wrong behavior. And yes, religion can be a great help in that. In providing understanding of compulsions, hope, forgiveness, and structure.
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Lilfair
Member
07-09-2003
| Monday, August 31, 2015 - 12:52 pm
I don't even know if rehab is the right word. Josh was/is a horny dude and can't keep it in his pants. The sanctity of marriage wasn't important at.all or more likely he never thought he'd got caught. As far as stats go it's a mathematical number and individual behavior varries . When people get bogged down with statistics and percentages they often are disappointed. Maybe if his parents did something when he was 14-15-16 and molesting kids they could have got him help ....he needed to explored sexuality with a professionally at deals with deviant sexual behavior. But his parents continued with side hugs no kissing and that sex is only for procreation ...how did that turn out....
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Lilfair
Member
07-09-2003
| Monday, August 31, 2015 - 12:55 pm
Josh had a lifetime of religion. What's that saying about insanity. Doing the same thing over and over. ... Religion is not Josh's friend. I'd say it's the opposite. Time to try something new josh.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Monday, August 31, 2015 - 12:58 pm
Lilfair, I agree that his parents did not address it adequately. Clearly.
But rehab is correct. Whether it's sex, drugs, alcohol, gambling, even overeating - all of these compulsive behaviors are BEST dealt with through rehab/addiction/recovery programs.
I know it's easier for many to think it's just because someone is selfish or entitled or whatever. But in Josh's case, with so much to lose if he were found out, it's clearly an addictive behavior - one that you compulsively perform even when it is self destructive.
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