| Author |
Message |
Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Saturday, August 22, 2015 - 8:57 pm 
I understand that God forgives people who sincerely repent. However, as part of their belief in general, are most Christians expected to forgive someone for his or her sins if the person sincerely repents? Do most Christians (not just the Duggars) expect Anna to forgive Josh?
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Naja
Member
06-28-2003
| Saturday, August 22, 2015 - 9:54 pm
I completely expect his family will and should forgive him. What I don't expect is for FOX News to any longer give the Duggars a platform to clean up their name and make more excuses for Josh.
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Muffin
Member
08-29-2007
| Sunday, August 23, 2015 - 7:40 am
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jenny-block/heres-why-it-makes-perfec_b_8022344.html
I have never uploaded a link here, but I found this interesting.
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Lilfair
Member
07-09-2003
| Sunday, August 23, 2015 - 8:17 am
Excellent article thanks for posting it Muffin.
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Rupertbear2
Member
07-15-2015
| Sunday, August 23, 2015 - 8:38 am
Yes, thanks Muffin. That woman is spot on in her observations.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Sunday, August 23, 2015 - 10:34 am
The article lacks depth and understanding and any shred of clinical knowledge about human sexuality. It blames his upbringing for his issues, when its also QUITE clear that people of all kinds of different upbringings have these issues.
It's facile and misleading and it bashes all Christians. And written by a woman who believes in open marriage and anything goes as long as its consensual? Her view seems to be that if we could just have sex with anyone openly, there would be no deviants.
In fact, if her thesis that upbringing is all that matters, she would be a monogamous Catholic. So, HIS upbringing matters, but HERS doesn't? Sorry, but I don't find her credible. Not. One. Bit.
Engaging in trite (and hateful) observations like hers will not help us better understand this issue ACROSS the population. Let's not forget that 37 million were signed up at Ashley Madison to have secret affairs.
Were they all raised like Josh Duggar? Of course not! It's just ridiculous to blame his issues on his upbringing and ignore the actual *data* that 37 million others were engaging in the same behavior without that family background. 
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Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Sunday, August 23, 2015 - 10:50 am
I agree that (obviously) people from all different backgrounds may have issues. While upbringing is relevant (which is why we try to instill certain values in our children), it is unwise to draw broad conclusions based on one example.
That said, the Duggars and I have very different views on life and parenting.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Sunday, August 23, 2015 - 10:56 am
By the way, as further evidence, I would also note that if his upbringing were SOLELY responsible for his obsessive behaviors, then EVERYONE in his family would be like that, and that's clearly not the case.
Did it play a role? Maybe. But without a complete professional examination, the results of which should never be made public, none of us know the complete etiology of his behavior.
Let alone someone without professional credentials who obviously hates "Christians".
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Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Sunday, August 23, 2015 - 11:00 am
Josh may well have still cheated etc. even if raised by different parents with different values.
However, it is much less likely that he would have been publicly outed as a hypocrite and I think that is what bothers a lot of people.
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Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Sunday, August 23, 2015 - 11:21 am
It's his (and his family's) stance on family values that makes him a hypocrite and the story newsworthy. Otherwise he's just another cheater.
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Muffin
Member
08-29-2007
| Sunday, August 23, 2015 - 11:50 am
Karuuna, did you watch the Duggar shows yourself? I'm just curious.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Sunday, August 23, 2015 - 11:58 am
Yes, Jimmer, exactly. That's why I am so against overly simplistic explanations of his behavior.
It's a natural human tendency to want to explain things away in such a way that it couldn't happen to you or your family. It's also not very rational or helpful to the population at large - or understanding deviant behavior.
The article I am commenting on says nothing about being a hypocrit. It's a long rant about how extremism causes deviancy, and lumps all Christians together as extremists (the way I read it). That's just ridiculous.
And again, it doesn't help explain the other 37 million people registered on Ashley Madison!
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Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Sunday, August 23, 2015 - 12:26 pm
While I agree, Kar, I also think that you and I both think that Josh wasn't raised in the best way and neither of us would raise a child that way. Interesting isn't it.
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Muffin
Member
08-29-2007
| Sunday, August 23, 2015 - 12:28 pm
We are not discussing the other members on that site. We are only talking about one family here, the Duggars. Furthermore, we have yet to see what will happen with the other Duggar sons because they haven't gotten married yet. And a lot of them haven't reached puberty yet!
I did not take that article to mean all Christians, not at all. Please don't put words in my mouth. Furthermore, I did watch the Duggar family for years and stopped watching when I didn't personally understand their ways or more, didn't like the way they were raising their children so I stopped. I stopped talking about them, because when I said that Michelle Duggar did absolutely nothing in looking after her own brood, and left everything to her older daughters, <99>. Any mother who can leave her home for months and have that home function as smoothly as hers did......then it shows me that each daughter took on roles of their mother. Michelle's main role in her family was to get pregnant, breastfeed and then get pregnant again. For a household to run so efficiently without a mother there is very telling to me!
As far as the article is concerned, and the comments here, Karuuna, I would imagine that different psychologists might even have different views. Not everything is black and white. Not everyone has the same emotions, therefore they each should be treated and can be treated in different ways for the same issues they might be having.
These children had absolutely no leeway in their upbringing. And if their family was raised the exact same way as others of their religion and beliefs, and they married only others raised in a cocoon like them, then Josh, who one would hope is an individual might not have felt they was any other way to explore his sexuality, before or after marriage.
He admitted to watching porn and that might have opened his eyes, but knew he couldn't go to Anna about it, so he sought people who he could explore with.
These are my feelings, and I am not a psychologist, but that doesn't mean that what I think has no merit at all. <99>
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Sunday, August 23, 2015 - 12:32 pm
Jimmer, yes, I have stated frequently here that I don't agree with their belief system and world view.
They have a right to it, of course, but I don't think it's healthy or grounded in reality.
But then, there are a lot of unhealthy ways of raising children out there that don't have anything to do with religion.
So, my point here, is that to blame this all on their faith, is a very narrow, and not very helpful view of sexuality and deviancy, why young men act out in appropriate ways, or why adults cheat.
That's my issue. Their religious views may have played a role in this case, but it is NOT the cause of his behavior by itself - which is what that article argues. The best you can say is that it may have exacerbated some underlying issue.
But a lot of parenting exacerbates, instead of helps, the issues kids have. Undisciplined parenting is just as hazardous as overly disciplined parenting.
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Muffin
Member
08-29-2007
| Sunday, August 23, 2015 - 12:33 pm
I will no longer discuss the Duggar family. I am not a psychologist, and there I don't have tables, and psychology books to back up every word or feeling that I have. This thread should be closed off to anyone who is not a professional.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Sunday, August 23, 2015 - 12:45 pm
Muffin, I am not putting words in *anyone's* mouth. My comments have to do with THAT ARTICLE. Period.
And of course, like you, I am entitled to post my opinion about THAT ARTICLE and its AUTHOR here.
The article and its conclusions are faulty, they are not scientific, they are only opinion. And they are the opinion of someone who states herself that she was "born with" a high need for sex. And even though she was raised very conventionally, she is quite promiscuous, and even eventually opting for an open marriage.
So, her conclusions about Josh's issues seem to be that he would be fine, if he could just be like her.  Not buying it.
And yes, she does slam Christians in that article. She lumps all Christians in with extremists:
Can we please stop acting as if Conservative, right-wing "Christians" make any sense or are even "good" people? Any extreme is bad. Any. And that goes for people who call themselves "Christians" and it goes double for anyone who calls him or herself a "fundamentalist" anything.
In fact, she calls them "bad." All conservative right-wing Christians. Bad. And anyone who calls themselves "Christian." Bad.
When I state how psychology views these things, it is the best understanding of the majority of the field right now. Not just my personal view.
And I back it up with facts - that deviancy happens in all kinds of families. It happens in rigid families, it happens in undisciplined families and it happens in good families too! The only reason this author isn't considered deviant apparently is that she is open about her proclivities and "appetite" and need for multiple partners. And somehow, here, HER upbringing doesn't matter apparently, but HIS is the cause of his problems? Really? Can we not see how *hypocritical* THAT is?
Anyone can express their views here. I express mine, from my background and experiences. That I don't agree with some of the opinions posted here doesn't mean they can't be shared. And that I disagree with some of the opinions here doesn't mean I can't share mine as well.
It's not personally directed toward anyone here. My opinions are why *I* find that author and article to not be credible, and something that should be rejected.
YMMV.
I should also note that I don't harbor ill will toward anyone who doesn't agree with me, nor do I think they shouldn't be posting. It's a discussion board. Discuss! But that also doesn't mean if you post your opinion, other people won't come in and post an opposing opinion. Or if an article is posted, and some agree with it, others can't come in and say way they don't find it credible.
That's the point of a discussion board. Everyone gets to play, as long as they play nice. 
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Ophiliasgrandma
Member
09-04-2001
| Sunday, August 23, 2015 - 1:09 pm
I'd like to 'play' too, Kar, but just don't have the credentials. So, I'm sliding through on your coattails…if you don't mind.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Sunday, August 23, 2015 - 1:14 pm
OG - if you want to hitch a ride on my tattered coattails, I'd be honored.
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Puzzled
Member
08-27-2001
| Sunday, August 23, 2015 - 1:32 pm
The author says: "Can we please stop acting as if Conservative, right-wing "Christians" make any sense or are even "good" people?" That is not slamming all Christians. All Christians are not conservative, right-wing. In a family, not all children are treated the same way. Thus one child can be a saint, and his/her sibling a felon. Something caused Josh to be a molester. Something went very wrong somewhere. I don't believe in "bad seeds." I think the parents handled it poorly, but they did what their brand of religion specifies--pray the bad away.
Forgiveness requires atonement,taking responsibility and making reparation, where possible. Just saying, "I'm sorry," is asking for cheap grace. Acting as though the molestation was no big deal and blaming Anna is not taking responsibility. Blaming the victim is not making reparation. We don't know what outside influences Josh might have been exposed to or how much his home influenced his actions, but I find it hard to believe that the family dynamics had no part in Josh's evolution.
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Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Sunday, August 23, 2015 - 2:06 pm
I can say that I would not and do not raise my children the way that the Duggars raised Josh and their other children. I think their approach is wrong and is more likely to lead to harmful results.
However, there is a big difference between the above and stating that what we have seen from Josh proves that people who are raised that way will turn out like Josh and I think that is what the woman who wrote that article is saying.
As far as the sincerity of Josh's apology and contrition, only Josh (and possibly God) know how Josh truly feels.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Sunday, August 23, 2015 - 2:20 pm
Puzzled: she said:
And that goes for people who call themselves "Christians" and it goes double for anyone who calls him or herself a "fundamentalist" anything.
That means all Christians to me. Her writing is a bit unclear, but she says anyone who calls themselves Christians is "bad."
Something caused Josh to be a molester. Something went very wrong somewhere. I don't believe in "bad seeds."
The science and current research does not support your disbelief in "bad seeds."
What it does support is that genetics AND environment play a role. Both. And in some people genetics appears to be determinant, and in others the genetics appear to be more modifiable by environment, and in others the genetic input is unclear and environment plays the larger role.
That's why some kids who are abused, turn out to be abusers, and some turn out to be adamantly against abuse. Every mix of genetics and environment is different. So one cannot accurately attribute it all to either one or the other, especially without a clinical assessment.
And of course, we have some very troubled kids coming out of very good homes as well. I prefer not to call them "bad seeds," but there is a lot more that we don't know, about how brains can develop differently and some urges end up being more prominent in some people than others. We just don't know.
And I agree with Jimmer. My problem with the article is that she hypocritically states that it was solely his upbringing that created his issues; while also saying elsewhere that she has always had a "very high sex drive"... but never attributing that to HER upbringing.
And she seems to think her promiscuity and need for multiple partners is quite normal. So what does she care if he's on Ashley Madison? To her, that need is normal and it's quite okay to have a high sex drive AND multiple partners. Why does she have any issue with it at all?
Her logic is very faulty. And she is quite the hypocrite. IMO.
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Muffin
Member
08-29-2007
| Sunday, August 23, 2015 - 2:23 pm
Puzzled, you said what I was thinking. There are different degrees in every religion. I posted the article because I did find what she said about Josh made a good point. I don't have to live like the writer nor agree to her feelings about her own sexuality. She is too open minded for me.
I certainly didn't think she was referring to all Christians and maybe I don't know that religion very well but there are extremists in every religion. I am Jewish and trust me there are different extremes of Judaism that I would never follow. They produce many children like the Duggars, they dress differently and their views are very different than mine. They wouldn't even consider me as being Jewish.
I don't believe that praying and repenting takes your sin away. Then we wouldn't need jails. All prisoners would pray and repent and be released without paying the price for their crimes.
Josh and his family were brought up in a bubble. The only other children they interact with are also brought up in a bubble. Their teachings, from what I read, is not to a lot of people's ways of belief. When he molested his sisters he should have had a real professional psychologist treat him. If he had concerns about sexuality, I can see his parents shutting him down. Just my opinion.
So in conclusion, and talking strictly about the Duggars, I do feel that his parents have contributed indirectly to Josh's actions and should have reacted in a better way.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Sunday, August 23, 2015 - 2:30 pm
Just to be clear, the author isn't saying that his upbringing "played a role", she is saying it is "the cause" of his issues.
She says: In fact, I believe it was that very upbringing that lead him to the criminal behavior with his sisters.
Perhaps his upbringing played a role. Perhaps not, since not *everyone* with those views has those issues. Some quite successfully follow the morals they are taught.
So, it's disingenuine to *blame* the religion and the religion only for his behavior.
As I've said before, deviancy can arise in overly rigid homes, in overly permissive homes and in homes that are quite balanced in view.
Without a clinical assessment, we just don't know how he got to be the way he is, nor do we know if the parenting exacerbated the behavior, or even if the behavior might have been WORSE with some other kind of parenting.
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Puzzled
Member
08-27-2001
| Sunday, August 23, 2015 - 5:15 pm
The nature vs. nurture debate has been going on for ages, and the latest regurgitation of "bad seed" is not universally agreed upon. In the end, we choose which studies we think are accurate and, depending upon our experience we will choose one or the other. Sometimes we agree, and sometimes we don't.
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