| Author |
Message |
Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Monday, June 22, 2015 - 11:19 am 
Actually, it is elitist, IMO. Community college is used by many today as a less expensive stepping stone then going straight to state colleges or universities.
But my overarching point remains. This family, while I disagree with their views, is often very articulate and well spoken. They are not bumpkins or stupid. There is no real basis to say that they would not be accepted at a university, if they *chose* that route.
Here's another FACT for you: Arkansas has *standardized* tests for homeschooling. If they passed those *standardized* tests, to acquire their high school diplomas, then they MEET the requirements for UNIVERSITY admission.
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Sadiesmom
Member
03-13-2002
| Monday, June 22, 2015 - 12:07 pm
it is not elitist to use words correctly. I was not judging the graduates or attendees, it was a comment on a discussion where you were talking about admissions to universities, if you were talking about community colleges I would not have disagreed.
I do not judge people on their education because some of the smartest people I know did not graduate high school. people are individuals, they have individual circumstances. Community colleges are affordable and a blessing to most people and does not reflect poorly on people.
the initial questions was about universities, and I believe I used the word most, not all. I know it is difficult for some - not all - home schooled people to get into Rutgers.
I have no idea how smart the Duggers are or what schools they can get into, it was just a question on admissions and universities. that was all I was commenting on.
communication is impossible if we do not use the correct words, I have no problem being corrected if I am wrong. I do have a problem with being insulted.
again I used the word MOST universities, not ALL.
done.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Monday, June 22, 2015 - 12:11 pm
the initial questions was about universities
The initial remark was about "college", and people here were using the words interchangeably as most people do.
No one says to high schoolers today "are you going to university?" They say "are you going to college. And when the young people answer that second question, they don't say "no, I'm going to university."
The point of this conversation was whether the Duggar children would *qualify* for higher education, parsing of words aside.
And as I noted, per Arkansas state law, homeschoolers must take standardized tests that meet those requirements.
So, all speculation that they would not qualify is simply unfounded.
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Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Monday, June 22, 2015 - 1:30 pm
You've/we've been talking about "regular universities" since last night. They would be difficult for the Duggar kids to get into, even if they could get into a community college.
And no disrespect to community college, they are perfect for many people and many careers, but they are not the same as universities, regular or otherwise. You'd never refer to a community college as a university.
Their choices are severely limited by their background, and they wouldn't qualify for regular universities. But they may qualify for other types of higher education. I don't see what's wrong in stating the truth.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Monday, June 22, 2015 - 1:43 pm
The initial remark was about "college", and as I noted, in conversation, most people do not differentiate between college and university. As I said, no one asked my DS if he was going to "university", they said "are you going to college." And not once did he answer, "no, I'm going to university." The words are used interchangeably in the United States.
Yes, they would qualify for ANY program, as I noted.
They have followed Arkansas state law in their homeschooling, and taken their standardized tests. As long as they passed those tests and received a high school diploma, yes, they do qualify.
So, whatever the heck you want to call the education of higher learning, it is incorrect to say they would not qualify. And THAT is the truth.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Monday, June 22, 2015 - 1:47 pm
And since people don't seem to believe that it could *possibly* be true, here it is from the Arkansas Education Alliance on homeschooling:
Answer: Most colleges have admission procedures for home school students. It is a good idea to check those admission requirements during the student’s 9th grade year and then re-check it during the student’s 11th grade year. This will enable the student to take any specific courses that may be required for admission to a particular college or university. Generally speaking, a home school student with a good ACT or SAT test score will have little trouble gaining admission into most colleges or universities in Arkansas.
https://arkansashomeschool.org/index.php/free-info/faq/
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Monday, June 22, 2015 - 2:02 pm
And look! Shocker! They took science classes!
http://media.glnsrv.com/pdf/products/
scope_and_sequence/SOS_Complete_Course_
Catalog.pdf
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Mamabatsy
Member
08-05-2005
| Monday, June 22, 2015 - 2:17 pm
For fifteen years I was the person who decided which classes transferred to meet our university requirements. Just about anyone with a HS diploma or GED can get into a California community college. It depends on the classes they take at the CC as to whether they will be accepted into a university. Getting into a CC is no where near getting into a university.
When I was in college there was a bible school across the street. Those students took their general ed classes at our university. One day an Astronomy instructor lost his cool when a bible student informed him that the universe cannot be billions of years old because God created earth X number of years ago. The instructor told him it was the 20th century and he'd better learn what the whole world learned and he'd just better grow up. The next day all four of the bible school students had dropped the class. They just did not want to learn what the rest of us think.
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Rehtse
Member
08-17-2005
| Monday, June 22, 2015 - 2:18 pm
When I said college, I meant a four year college/university. I was not referring to a community college. Although, it would be a blessing if these kids could be allowed to even go there.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Monday, June 22, 2015 - 2:21 pm
As I have noted, the Duggars have followed the Arkansas state guidelines for homeschooling, taken the standardized tests. If they progressed to the point of diploma, they meet the admissions standards of most colleges/universities. Each institution has their own requirements, but even if you don't have all the i's dotted and t's crossed, they will generally admit you if your SAT scores are high enough.
I know of many local high schoolers who didn't have the 18 credits required in the right areas, and all they had to do was complete them during their first year at university.
I think too much is being made out of thin air here.
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Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Monday, June 22, 2015 - 2:21 pm
They just did not want to learn what the rest of us think.
Don't the majority of Americans believe that God created the earth and humans (as opposed to the theory of evolution)?
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Monday, June 22, 2015 - 2:26 pm
When I was in college there was a bible school across the street. Those students took their general ed classes at our university.
I'm confused. Where you in "college" or "university?" 
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Mamabatsy
Member
08-05-2005
| Monday, June 22, 2015 - 2:39 pm
Now it is a University but when I attended it was a college. LOL
Not to confuse the issue more, but many schools that call themselves universities are actually colleges. Community colleges are also called Jr. College or Trade School. It doesn't matter what they call themselves, but they need to be regionally accredited in order to be worth anything.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Monday, June 22, 2015 - 2:57 pm
All I'm saying is that in common language, the words 'college' and 'university' are often used interchangeably.
And I would also note, that even tho those students chose to leave the university/college, they were admitted/ permitted to take classes there, in spite of their belief in creationism.
In fact, homeschoolers are more likely to have taken college level classes than public schoolers:
http://www.hslda.org/research/ray2003/Fig1.gif
Note - this survey is not a scientific sample, but it is important to note
There are some institutions that aren't accredited, that are actually quite good. But I agree that it is a good thing to consider.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Monday, June 22, 2015 - 3:12 pm
Another good article on homeschoolers and college:
http://www.onlinecollege.org/2011/09/13/15-key-facts-about-homeschooled-kids-in-college/
Colleges like Dartmouth- recruit homeschoolers. Stanford - accepts 27% of homeschooled applicants.
The point here is that we simply don't have enough information about the Duggars to say *definitively* that they could not get into a University, college, or whatever you want to call it.
So, based on the evidence, I can hardly regard that as "truth."
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Denecee
Member
09-05-2002
| Monday, June 22, 2015 - 3:18 pm
Jimmer, you really like to open a can of worms, huh? lol, I don't know about most Americans but all my closest family and friends believe the Big Bang theory.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Monday, June 22, 2015 - 3:28 pm
(Actually a poll in 2014, showed that 4 out of 10 Americans believe God created the world only 10,000 years ago. that would make a lot of people ineligible for college, apparently.  )
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Mamabatsy
Member
08-05-2005
| Monday, June 22, 2015 - 3:33 pm
There are some institutions that aren't accredited, that are actually quite good. But I agree that it is a good thing to consider.
And some schools are accredited by what we used to call "Joe's Bar and Accrediting." The important one is regional accredited. If you ever want to increase the level of education, it is important. I broke many hearts of those who wanted to get a Master's Degree but had gone to a particular school up north that claimed to be accredited but was only accredited by some Bible institute.
Oh, and those students were not accepted to attend the school I attended. They were "extension" students. Anyone with the money could take those classes.
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Mamabatsy
Member
08-05-2005
| Monday, June 22, 2015 - 3:35 pm
(Actually a poll in 2014, showed that 4 out of 10 Americans believe God created the world only 10,000 years ago. that would make a lot of people ineligible for college, apparently. )
I wonder how many of those 4 in 10 went to college.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Monday, June 22, 2015 - 3:42 pm
Admitted or not, they could still attend and take the classes.
And for most institutions, once you have taken some classes and proven yourself, you can then get admitted and get college credit for them.
As for accreditation, it depends on what you want for your future. An art or technical school doesn't need to be accredited. There are some high quality institutions that teach specific skills that aren't accredited. It's more important if you want financial aid, or to go on to a graduate degree.
But if you go to seminary and want to be a pastor, not so necessary.
Still, the un-accredited school is not a standard, but it can fit some needs. The University of the People, an online, tuition free, college program was not accredited initially. It is now, but it was a great alternative then and now. It is a new model for higher education and, IMO, moving in the right direction, away from our way-too-expensive and dinosaur-like current models that have not evolved.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Monday, June 22, 2015 - 3:50 pm
I wonder how many of those 4 in 10 went to college.
27%. But that wasn't the question that was asked. The question was how many Americans think God created the world. In fact, this was more specific, 4 in 10 think God created it only 10,000 years ago (young-earth creationism).
If you ask how many think God created the world without qualifying "when", the percentage would be much higher. That is, it would include all the "old-earth creationists" as well.
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Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Monday, June 22, 2015 - 4:13 pm
Exactly. I was just pointing out that the Duggars aren't exactly in some vast minority of Americans in that respect (though surveys show that the percentage of Americans who believe that God created the world is declining).
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Jag2000
Member
07-01-2009
| Monday, June 22, 2015 - 5:16 pm
I don't know if this was discussed, I didn't read all the posts, but I always thought a College only offered 4 yrs. and a University offered 4 yrs. plus graduate school,
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Mamabatsy
Member
08-05-2005
| Monday, June 22, 2015 - 5:50 pm
A college usually has one basic specialty. Not one subject, but a science college would offer several different degrees in various sciences. A liberal arts college would have many disciplines offered. It becomes a university when several colleges are considered one entity. The school I worked for started as a business college then started offering several design programs. When they branched out to architecture and started a separate school of architecture, they filed with WASC and were granted university status. They do offer an MBA and a master's in Architecture, but I'm not sure they had those when they became a university... it was before my time.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Monday, June 22, 2015 - 5:52 pm
There is no hard and fast rule. There are colleges that have graduate programs. There are universities that are very small.
In *general*, universities have graduate programs, but there are plenty of exceptions. Dartmouth College offers graduate degrees, but Vincennes University only offers 2-year Associate Degrees.
As I noted, in most cases, people use the words interchangeably. And kids today use the word "college" whether they are attending a University or a "College." (I'm a college student, not I'm a university student.) It's a distinction without much of a difference these days.
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