| Author |
Message |
Lexie_girl
Member
07-30-2004
| Thursday, June 15, 2017 - 11:11 am 
And Jimmer, I think that is what happened with Corinne. She said while she may have appeared "lucid" (for lack of a better word), she was actually "blacked out" and doesn't remember anything that happened in the pool.
Both you and Kar have made excellent points for being on the opposite end of the spectrum regarding this discussion. Honestly, this is such a mess and I think we can all go around and around in circles arguing our points and we're all right and we're all wrong.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Thursday, June 15, 2017 - 11:41 am
What about when both participants appear willing at the time?
The legal status is drunks can't give consent.
It is NO different than holding bartenders liable if they continue to serve someone too inebriated to drive. It's the LAW. So you err on the side of caution.
And FWIW, if you know anything about drunks, you know they can be conscious without being coherent or "willing." They have no idea what they are doing.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Thursday, June 15, 2017 - 11:42 am
We don't only have Corinne, we have tape. And that's why they shut the show down. Because they could see the tape, and knew there was a problem.
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Brenda1966
Member
07-02-2002
| Thursday, June 15, 2017 - 11:48 am
Yeah, my teenage daughter and I had a good discussion about the role all of the various parties played in this (her, him, alcohol, producers, other contestants, etc.).
Corinne needs help. If she's drinking to the point of black out she doesn't belong on TV, she needs treatment. I can understand the others being angry at their gig being cancelled due to the very bad behavior of two others on the show. I'd be ticked off too. And who knows, maybe they didn't unfollow her, maybe she blocked them.
What a mess. I'm sure this isn't the extended 15 minutes of fame either of them desired.
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Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Thursday, June 15, 2017 - 12:24 pm
The legal status is drunks can't give consent.
Can you define drunk? Are they going to start doing breathalyzers before contestants make out?
Look I'm certainly in agreement that they are legally and morally required to step in if it's evident. But it's not always clear. Lots of people have made out on reality TV after having a few drinks and there is no issue. People fall into pools, etc. They could kill themselves doing that as well.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Thursday, June 15, 2017 - 1:59 pm
I don't know why you are being so tough on this legal standard. Road sobriety tests are sufficient. Behavior is sufficient.
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Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Thursday, June 15, 2017 - 2:12 pm
I'm not being tough. I just don't think it is as easy a decision as you seem to think. Look at Corinne's behaviour on past televised episodes:
quote:- Olymypios made an impression during the season premiere of "The Bachelor" with Viall when she stole him away from the other women and right away made out with him.
- On the very next episode, Olympios shocked the other women vying for Viall’s heart by taking off her top while in a pool with him.
- The sexual aggressiveness continued in the third episode when Olympios took Viall outside the mansion, dressed only in a trench coat, and had the bachelor lick whip cream off her bare breasts. In the same episode Olympios got drunk. In fact, she was so intoxicated, that she passed out on her bed and completely missed the rose ceremony.
- Then, of course, was the infamous episode in the Bahamas during which Olympios went to Viall’s hotel room with the intent to sleep with him. As widely reported, she said before heading to his room, "My heart is gold, but my 'vagine' is platinum." While they drank champagne, Olympios said they should go behind closed doors into his bedroom.
http://www.gossipcop.com/corinne-olympios-demario-jackson-case-lawsuit-bachelor-bachelorette-tapes-court/
Given all of those past incidents (which were observed by the show producers as well as everyone watching on TV and which Corinne found perfectly acceptable to show on TV), it may not have been instantly obvious to them that she was acting any differently than normal when she started getting into an intimate situation with DeMario.
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Bbpeach
Member
07-07-2005
| Thursday, June 15, 2017 - 3:15 pm
Exactly Jimmer. If her behavior was consistent with previous behavior, how is anyone to know?
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Grooch
Member
06-16-2006
| Thursday, June 15, 2017 - 3:15 pm
Jimmer, what if she was passing out and sleeping in the middle of it? Would that be enough?
It all doesn't matter. The producers had a duty to protect. Whatever the producer saw bothered her enough to report it as it is a job requirement. Whatever the higher ups saw must have disturbed them also to shut things down.
If the producer didn't report it, she would be negligent and complicit and be involved in some kind of coverup if those tapes ever got out. I don't think she's paid enough to have to worry about that.
And shame on the film crew for watching/filming and not stopping it.
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Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Thursday, June 15, 2017 - 3:41 pm
Jimmer, what if she was passing out and sleeping in the middle of it? Would that be enough?
Of course, that would be more than enough (as I've stated earlier). I think we all know that and I certainly hope that didn't happen and they ignored it. The reports indicate that didn't happen.
It all doesn't matter.
Yes it matters. It matters a lot. The producers and film crew aren't psychic. And just because they stopped the show, it doesn't mean they are guilty.
If they are going to stop everyone on these shows from making out after drinking they might as well stop all of the Bachelor franchise as well as Big Brother, etc.
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Grooch
Member
06-16-2006
| Thursday, June 15, 2017 - 4:15 pm
I didn't say they were guilty. That's what the investigation is for.
I just feel uncomfortable with the thought that just because she didn't act like a saint in the past that whatever happened to her isn't taken seriously by people and that they don't consider that maybe it was bad and it crossed a line.
The show provides the free booze and encourages her to get wasted and rewards her for being sexual. The crew doesn't need to be psychic. There should be procedures in place and training for them to know what is OK and when to stop things.
But like I said, that's what the investigation is for.
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Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Thursday, June 15, 2017 - 4:39 pm
I just feel uncomfortable with the thought that just because she didn't act like a saint in the past that whatever happened to her isn't taken seriously by people and that they don't consider that maybe it was bad and it crossed a line.
I feel uncomfortable with that as well but unfortunately that is how life works for all of us. We don't start each day with a clean slate.
What happened to her was bad. I'm sorry that they didn't stop it. All I'm saying is it may have been hard for them to tell that this was different than she behaved in front of them in the past.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Thursday, June 15, 2017 - 4:55 pm
yes, it's like a hooker can't get raped because, well, she's a hooker.
It's a painful old paternalistic view.
Because producers didn't stop her in the past, does not mean they are not guilty this time.
And people can make out without drinking, and they can make out after a few drinks.
But I guess I've been around enough drunks to know when they are too inebriated to be considered as able to legally consent.
It's no different than holding a bartender liable for continuing to serve someone when they've had too much, and then letting them drive home.
These are LEGAL standards, and if you are going to be in the business of supplying alcohol, you better be aware of them!
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Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Thursday, June 15, 2017 - 4:58 pm
It's a painful old paternalistic view.
Interesting that you would phrase it that way given that expecting other people will look after things on her behalf and control her best interests in spite of herself is rather paternalistic isn't it?
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Thursday, June 15, 2017 - 5:00 pm
No, it's not. It's following the law.
It's no different from holding a fraternity liable when they've continually encouraged someone to drink, and then ignored their medical needs.
It's no different than the court case today where a young woman encouraged her boyfriend to commit suicide.
We have an obligation to treat people responsibly, and to keep them from harm when they can't themselves.
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Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Thursday, June 15, 2017 - 5:05 pm
So how is "a hooker can't get raped because, well, she's a hooker" a painful old paternalistic view?
I understand why that belief is wrong but I don't see how it is paternalistic?
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Thursday, June 15, 2017 - 5:12 pm
Sorry, should have said "sexist." It's been a long day.
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Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Thursday, June 15, 2017 - 5:14 pm
Oh okay. You had me confused there. I happens to all of us. 
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Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Thursday, June 15, 2017 - 5:31 pm
How about we use a different example.
A woman visits a resort, has a few drinks and then makes out with a guy by the pool (e.g. what Corinne did with Nick).
The same woman visits the same resort a few months later, has a few drinks and then makes out with another guy by the pool.
How is the bartender to know that she is being taken advantage of the second time?
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Thursday, June 15, 2017 - 6:02 pm
I think you're missing the point.
Bartenders aren't required to step in in that case. If they think she is too inebriated to drink more, it is their responsibility to stop serving her. They have to make a judgment call.
Only if the establishment has a policy about overt sexual behavior, should a bartender step in, whether they are drunk or not.
However, if a bartender sees a woman who is very inebriated and a guy is fondling her, or volunteering to take her home (and the bartender thinks he doesn't know her), s/he should call the police.
A *few* drinks is not the issue. Substantially *Impaired* is the issue. Police make that call when they see drivers, bartenders make that call, based on behavior (slurred speech, unsteady, etc) at their bars.
It's not nearly as difficult as you are trying to make it.
Are you saying you can't tell the difference between someone who is clearly intoxicated and someone who's just had a "few drinks?" Really?
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Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Thursday, June 15, 2017 - 6:35 pm
Of course, the question is was she clearly intoxicated.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Thursday, June 15, 2017 - 6:40 pm
And I say again, you err on the side of caution. If you suspect she is inebriated, you treat her as if she is, or go check it out. It usually only takes a few moments of conversation.
I think your problem is you never worked as a bartender or cocktail server. 
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Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Thursday, June 15, 2017 - 6:41 pm
Fair enough. I have been in a few bars though. 
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Pamy
Member
01-01-2002
| Thursday, June 15, 2017 - 7:05 pm
What about girls that do something while drunk and realize they shouldnt have and then say it was because they were drunk or blacked out as an out.
What's a guy to do? Video her giving consent and show she doesnt appear to be shit faced drunk? ask her at the beginning of the night just in case? but us girls are fickle and change our minds. I feel bad for guys
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Thursday, June 15, 2017 - 7:26 pm
She can't give consent if she was drunk at the time you are about to have sex.
So if you're about to have sex with someone who is very drunk, YOU should back out.
If you think she is the kind of woman who says she wants to have sex with you and you think she might have regrets, you are having sex with her too soon. Walk away. Have some self control.
Asking at the beginning of the night makes no difference. It's still rape if she changes her mind, it's still rape if she's too drunk to change her mind.
That's what I spent years teaching young men in our DARE classes - (Date Acquaintance Rape Education).
And yes, some young men are getting consent via video. If you're going to have sex with someone without being in a real relationship, it is one solution. However, it is not foolproof. She can still change her mind, and you have to respect that. And if she gets drunk, you are still at risk.
It's simple, just be responsible.
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Spoilers - 2017 Bachelor in Paradise 
