| Author |
Message |
Denecee
Member
09-05-2002
| Friday, December 13, 2019 - 4:39 pm 
I have to believe that most people would not lie about something like this, definitely not two liars for every one honest. that's just plain depressing to think.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Friday, December 13, 2019 - 5:02 pm
I agree Denecee - the stats for lying about rape is about 10% dishonest claims. So clearly not more, and a lot lot less.
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Jimmer
Board Administrator
08-29-2000
| Friday, December 13, 2019 - 5:11 pm
Another issue though is once someone mentions something or notices something then other people are more acutely aware and watchful. It's like when you're interested in buying a certain model car and suddenly starting noticing more of them on the road. There's a word for that phenomenon but I can't remember what it is or if it applies here.
For example, if Kellee hadn't emphasized Dan's touching her, then likely no one else would have said anything including the woman he claims he fell into while boarding the boat.
It just makes everyone think twice.
Once again, they should be alert and I hate to think it may sound like I'm defending bad behavior.
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Mimi
Member
04-30-2009
| Friday, December 13, 2019 - 6:39 pm
Okay as someone who was once harassed by a guy at work this is driving me nuts. He would hug me. squeeze me. Touch my hair. I asked time and time again for him to stop. He did not until I actually yelled at him.
His sorry ass eventually got transferred somewhere up north. Within a year or so he was fired, but I don't know why.
I do not care where someone is from or what they considered okay, when I tell you to stop touching me, stop touching me.
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Lakecat
Member
10-01-2006
| Friday, December 13, 2019 - 7:50 pm
I still think if you are a touchy feely person anyway it may take more than 39 days to retrain yourself not to touch those that are sensitive to it. My husband always patted his bro in law on the back. Bro in law didn’t like it and told my husband to quit. It took several slip ups before he finally got in the habit of not patting him on the back. My other sis in law has really bad fibromyalgia mylasia and other painful conditions. She doesn’t want to be hugged. I’ve slipped up a few times.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Friday, December 13, 2019 - 8:38 pm
when I tell you to stop touching me, stop touching me.
We all agree with this, and I'm sorry you went through that. I would definitely call that harassment.
That said, I agree with Lakecat, 90% of our days are lived reflexively... that is, we aren't making active choices to do each little thing we do, we are acting out of habit. It takes some time, and reminding, to retrain.
Those who are really trying to be respectful will be remorseful when they do slip up. That's the difference.
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Biloxibelle
Member
12-21-2001
| Saturday, December 14, 2019 - 9:03 am
I'm not sure how much I agree with actually having to tell someone not to touch you. Back at the beginning of this conversation Dogdoc posted about not liking to be touched. I am the same way. Unless I am extremely close to the person I don't like to be touched, not for any reason other than it wigs me out. I don't feel I should have to tell people not to touch me. It should be an unwritten rule for both men and woman to keep their hands to themselves unless they are invited in.
Dogdog, I work with 12 year olds and younger. I am so sorry that happened to you and to anyone else it happened to that posts and reads here.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Saturday, December 14, 2019 - 9:10 am
Biloxi, I don't know how such a rule would work. Where I worked pro bono with abused kids, we did have that rule, but sometimes the kids themselves violated it, and sometimes it made THEM feel awkward (they already feel unlovable), because gentle touch is a way we have of showing people they are cared about.
And of course, we are a melting pot country. Many countries don't have the same customs of personal space that we do.
It's a lot more complicated than don't touch without asking or being invited.
That's why I always go back to "grace." BOTH sides have the responsibility to communicate their needs and preferences. And BOTH sides have an obligation to give way to those who are less touchy feely.
Not all touch is bad... I don't want to live in a world where it becomes that way. In fact, we've shown definitively that touch is not only healthy but *necessary* for emotional well being.
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Biloxibelle
Member
12-21-2001
| Saturday, December 14, 2019 - 9:33 am
Maybe not the word rule so much as manners. Now trust me all the kids on the planet can hug me if they want to and trust me they want to most days. Sometimes I feel like a Disney Character, lol.
I am speaking about adults. After I posted I have sat here and wondered why I don't like people I am not connected to touching me and I just don't know. I just don't like it. I usually keep myself a reasonable distance away from someone I might not know well but know they are a hugger, toucher. But I still stand by "keep your hands to yourself". I realize there are accidental touches, brief pats or touches that are random and those don't bother me. It is someone that purposely touches or grabs. We had a co-worker that loved to come into our department and get way too close for my comfort. I did tell him not to grab my leg any more as he was squeezing himself in at our lunch table. He did it one more time I very colorfully told him where I was going to shove his hand after I snapped it off if he ever touched me again. Hated embarrassing him like that but he sat at the opposite end of the table from there on out.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Saturday, December 14, 2019 - 9:59 am
I think people have the right to have their own preferences about touch. Absolutely.
But we can't expect everyone to feel the same. You did the right thing, make your needs known and expect them to be respected.
I am a hugger. Most times I ask, sometimes verbally, sometimes by just holding my arms out.
Had a book group last night. Most of the women were huggers, too. For someone who lives alone, this kind of affection is often the only time anyone touches me. It means a lot to me, and it's good for my health and well being.
There are all kinds of touch. Again, I say if you are someone who doesn't want to be touched by someone outside a "circle" of people that you are in relationship with, that's just fine with me.
We just need to be careful not to paint with too broad a brush.
I see the NYT today is calling Dan's behavior "sexual misconduct". It may be, but so far, from the evidence *I* have seen, I don't see it.
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Misspoufy
Member
09-30-2004
| Saturday, December 14, 2019 - 10:12 am
I've tried to avoid commenting on this fiasco as I believe the truth of the matter lies somewhere in the middle. Did Dan touch Kellee? Yep. Did she really feel uncomfortable? Yep, she said she did and continues to say so, therefore I believe her. Was he being inappropriate? I think that's where the middle lies. For Kellee it was inappropriate, but what was her reason for thinking so?
We can't be inside his mind and judge the reason he touched her or inside her mind and know why it offended her. Did he touch the gal in the boat on purpose or to keep from falling? I'd guess falling but I'd also say Survivor was looking for an excuse to get rid of him. I'd also say that IF he was acting really inappropriately to the women they'd have voted him out instead of keeping him around or they'd have spoken up and out and had him ejected much earlier.
I am an affectionate person. I touch people everywhere I go. I sing at our local senior centers and I sit down and talk with them, hold their hands, and give hugs. You can tell when someone is accepting of this or not if you pay attention. Their body language is usually quite clear. I work with children. Some are totally affectionate, others not. Again, if you pay attention they'll let you know.
As I said, I'm an affectionate person, BUT there are people I don't want to touch or want touching me. We have a man in our church that will wipe his drooling mouth (he won't wear his dentures) and then want to shake my hand...NOOOOOO. It gives me the shivers just writing that. I've taken it on myself to steer clear of him. There used to be a man in my church who would pat the bottoms of all the women, he got a thrill out of it, and it was well known that he did this. I steered clear of him as well.
I've said this to say that in Survivor the people come to the game with the understanding that they're sleeping in close quarters and it's often cold and wet requiring snuggling. There have been other seasons where there's been complaints about this very thing. There were two other gals who complained about Dan and then revealed they'd lied and exaggerated hoping to get him kicked out so as to advance their game. When things bother you move away, sleep elsewhere, avoid that person.
I put part of the responsibility on Kellee. If Dan bothered her that much she should have not been alone with him after the first touches bothered her. If he bothered her that much she should have spoken up immediately not waited.
As I said in the beginning I think the truth of this lies somewhere in the middle and I think seeing people's feelings and comments reflect their personal experiences. I also think that this may be the time when TPRB at Survivor look at some changes, like more clothing and better sleeping arrangements so as to help avoid these problems better.
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Denecee
Member
09-05-2002
| Saturday, December 14, 2019 - 12:09 pm
Well he got booted for what he did off camera to someone other than a player, so we don't know what happened.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Saturday, December 14, 2019 - 1:13 pm
Denecee, the articles on this say he touched a production person's leg while getting in (or off?) the boat to be transported back to camp.
He says he lost his balance.
So, yeah, that's all we know. It wasn't on camera.
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Jimmer
Board Administrator
08-29-2000
| Saturday, December 14, 2019 - 3:47 pm
I don't want to minimize Kellee's discomfort because it obviously was very real and hurtful to her. However, by objective standards, the stuff we were actually shown was not desperately objectionable. People have previously done far worse things on Survivor and other shows (like Big Brother) and it's largely been ignored by both the producers and the viewers.
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Brenda1966
Member
07-02-2002
| Saturday, December 14, 2019 - 6:09 pm
When this last episode started I had an "Oh crap" moment where it occurred to me that Dan could win this! I'm thinking the producers likely had that same moment. I'm sure they were hoping he'd be voted out by now.
I'm firmly in the "Kellee is not exaggerating" camp, but I suspect the producers were pouring through footage, trying to figure out exactly what they had here, and looking for any moment they could use after he was warned to remove him from the show. And it sounds like he may have given them that moment.
I'm not sure what to make of it all and I will be really interested to see how they handle it at the reunion. I don't think Dan is a bad guy in a Harvey Weinstein way. We didn't see him trying to coerce or manipulate via touch. We can't lump all of these unwanted behaviors together.
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Lakecat
Member
10-01-2006
| Saturday, December 14, 2019 - 8:16 pm
I think you and Cmpfinster are on to something. It wouldn’t be such a good idea if he won.
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Seamonkey
Moderator
09-07-2000
| Saturday, December 14, 2019 - 8:56 pm
What happened previously was ignored, but not right.
And had earlier complaints from earlier seasons been addressed, there would probably not be an issue this season.
I have not seen it heard anything that rises to the level of sexual assault.
On tonight's ABC World News Tonight they showed a clip where a female reporter at a race was slapped on the butt and grabbed by a male runner and the guy has been arrested, charged with sexual battery. I thought that would be a lesser offense, but Google says the terms are equal, at least in California.
https://www.tmz.com/2019/12/14/reporter-butt-slap-runner-5k-race-arrested-charged-sexual-battery/
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Brenda1966
Member
07-02-2002
| Sunday, December 15, 2019 - 11:19 am
Yeah, to me a slap on the rear is sexually aggressive. I'm not sure what the punishment should be, but it's good they are making an example of this guy who intentionally did this to a reporter on live camera. It's not cute and funny.
But ultimately seems very different than Dan's unwanted behavior. I agree with others who've suggested Survivor give the people clothes and swim suits to wear. Maybe having people huddled together in their underwear isn't the best.
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Jimmer
Board Administrator
08-29-2000
| Sunday, December 15, 2019 - 11:45 am
Walking on a beach with someone who he knows who is chatting with him in a friendly way about how she probably needs to wash her hair and him reaching out to touch it isn't remotely equivalent to slapping some stranger on the butt. What Dan did there isn't even abnormal behavior. People do things like that all the time.
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Vsmart
Member
02-09-2003
| Sunday, December 15, 2019 - 1:16 pm
Maybe TPTB wanted Dan to stay long enough to really do something bad because controversy increases viewership. As a talent agent he is used to starlets willing to do/endure anything to get a part.
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Seamonkey
Moderator
09-07-2000
| Sunday, December 15, 2019 - 1:52 pm
Yes, they could start by giving them more than underwear from the first day.
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Seamonkey
Moderator
09-07-2000
| Sunday, December 15, 2019 - 1:57 pm
The difference is that Dan had already been asked, then told to stop.
The runner was clearly inappropriate. And used the age old I am a pillar of the community, I have a wife! Chidren! Thus nothing I do could be considered creepy. Like Dan, plus can works in a power position in a industry where this is a sensitive and current issue, but that just means he is innocent. Yeah.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Sunday, December 15, 2019 - 2:38 pm
Frankly, if I was with someone who had asked me not to touch them, and they said something about how weird their hair felt, I would struggle too. Just like not tucking a stray hair behind an ear (or out of someone's face), or picking lint off their sweater (depending on the location of the lint). It's out of a deep sense of affection for others, not lechery.
Again, FOR ME, I would need to see very egregious behavior by Dan to call it "sexual misconduct" as the NYT just did.
And *I* haven't seen it. Not to say it didn't happen, but *I* have not seen that evidence.
Dan is so far only guilty of not understanding that people have different boundaries about touching. Which makes him dense, not a predator.
Unless I *see* something different. Not hear a story about it.
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Ark
Member
07-09-2001
| Monday, December 16, 2019 - 9:03 am
Sorry Karuuna, if you tucked a piece of hair behind my ear or picked a piece of lint off my sweater, I would think you were weird and tell people about it. My mom can do that. My kids can do that. My husband can do that. My friends that I've known XX years can do that. Someone I've known for a couple of weeks needs to stay out of my personal space.
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Dogdoc
Member
09-29-2001
| Monday, December 16, 2019 - 10:03 am
I am like that too Ark.
But I don't think that I would want Anybody to tuck a piece of hair behind my ear. Don't come at my face!
Also, I think that Dan would have had to be more than just dense to have been thrown out.
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