| Author |
Message |
Cass_cat
Member
05-09-2011
| Friday, November 15, 2019 - 9:58 am 
I really liked Missy at the beginning of the season... but she's playing too cut-throat for me. Same with Aaron... except he wins some points back cuz his socks.
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Strategist
Member
07-01-2014
| Friday, November 15, 2019 - 10:01 am
I wouldn't want Dan anywhere near me.
I agree fully and I don't understand men like Jeff Varner making excuses for him and blaming the victim. It's on video! This is exactly why women who are victims find it so hard to come forward. Even when there is evidence, they are not believed.
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Lexie_girl
Member
07-30-2004
| Friday, November 15, 2019 - 10:09 am
Karuuna... I am absolutely stumped as to why Aaron is issuing a video apology on social media.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Friday, November 15, 2019 - 10:17 am
FWIW, Strategist, I *personally* wouldn't find Dan anything more than annoyingly affectionate when he shouldn't be. Note: based on what I saw on the show.
I don't think that qualifies as any kind of "assault."
I think it weakens women to include these kinds of things as some kind of predator/victim thing. Just say "I'm uncomfortable with your touching me, so please stop." Simple.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Friday, November 15, 2019 - 10:19 am
By the way, I am a touchy feely person. Sorry. I guess I'm assaulting people. I have tried to learn to be more cognizant of it, and ask first. But sometimes I forget. I might fix a stray hair, I might gently touch an arm to move someone out of my way, I'll pick lint off a shoulder or back. That's just me.
I hate that society thinks normal, innocent touching is now assault.
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Strategist
Member
07-01-2014
| Friday, November 15, 2019 - 10:38 am
Just say "I'm uncomfortable with your touching me, so please stop." Simple.
If I tell you to stop being "touchy feely" with me, I expect you to stop. And, if I say it again and again and you do not stop, then I would consider it assault.
Not talking directly to you, Karuuna, just using the generic "you".
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Dogdoc
Member
09-29-2001
| Friday, November 15, 2019 - 10:46 am
Strategist, I wish I wouldn't be touched even for the first time.
I will put up with it if it is a woman but I wont like it.
Any kind of rubbing by a man makes me want to knock the hand away.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Friday, November 15, 2019 - 10:47 am
I did not see any evidence last night that the women asked him to stop. That's my point. 
By the way, I still wouldn't consider it "assault" *depending* on the circumstance. Like I said, I'm old and forgetful, I might forget that you said not to pick lint off your sweater two months ago.
However, if I picked lint off your sweater, or fixed your hair and said something about your looks in a suggestive way, that would be different.
I think some grace is in order.
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Cass_cat
Member
05-09-2011
| Friday, November 15, 2019 - 11:12 am
Kellee has been the only person to ask him to stop.
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Kearie
Member
07-21-2005
| Friday, November 15, 2019 - 11:22 am
"I hate that society thinks normal, innocent touching is now assault."
I completely agree.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Friday, November 15, 2019 - 11:42 am
And Cass, I'm not sure, but did he stop after she asked him? My memory is not strong, but I kind of think she said he did not.... but not sure.
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Kappy
Member
06-28-2002
| Friday, November 15, 2019 - 12:03 pm
Lord we are all so different and I say that with a smile!
There was a time when I was touchy feely but learned to reign it in when I realized I was making others uncomfortable. And while I know many, like Karunna, will pick lint off of someone else as a fond gesture, I have also seen it done as a way to let someone know they are not as 'neat or 'kept up' as others in a group.
As for Jeff Varner, my fondness for him ended when he outed Zeke. No surprise he would see nothing wrong with Dan's behavior. Jeff Varner wants back on tv. Maybe Dan can get him a job.
While I think Kellee just needed to vent about Dan, I felt the other 3 knew exactly what they were doing in manipulating it for heir own advantage and poor Janet got caught up in their trap. As someone said above, "mean girls" immediately came to mind. I don't think they need to be raked over the coals. I just hope the producers never bring them back . . . EVER.
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Strategist
Member
07-01-2014
| Friday, November 15, 2019 - 12:06 pm
Kellie did ask him to stop and he did not. I'm not sure about the editing, but it looks like she broke down to the producer after that. That is why the producer brought everyone together and spoke with them.
There is no such thing as "innocent touching" if you've been asked not to do it and you repeatedly do it.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Friday, November 15, 2019 - 12:13 pm
Strategist, wasn't that the same time the producer asked if she wanted them to do something and she declined?
I'm going to have to rewatch apparently.
And yes, Strategist, for those of us that are old, it is innocent, if you forget. but I guess I'm guilty of assault. 
Like I said, grace.
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Strategist
Member
07-01-2014
| Friday, November 15, 2019 - 12:13 pm
There is something else that is important. It can be true that Kellie was offended about his inappropriate touching and the others were not. Both can be true.
We can see here that Dogdoc and I might be bothered and would consider it a serious invasion of our space, where Kearie and Karunna might not see it as a problem.
The best thing for the offender to do when told it bothers someone is "hands off" otherwise if it continues, it could be considered assault by some. Better safe than sorry.
This is why people who *feel* victimized have a hard time speaking up. They end up feeling both judged and victimized all over again.
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Strategist
Member
07-01-2014
| Friday, November 15, 2019 - 12:17 pm
I guess I'm guilty of assault.
I didn't say you were guilty of assault. I'm pretty sure that you would not keep forgetting if someone told you to stop it. I would forgive you if you had some kind of dementia or memory loss, but I know you better than that!
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Friday, November 15, 2019 - 12:18 pm
Kappy, that's the thing isn't it? It's all about intent.
I do try very hard to respect that, but haven't been raised in a very European family, the personal bubbles just aren't the same. And now this you can't even fondly touch someone or you are a serial assaulter, it makes me just want to retreat more from life and people.
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Strategist
Member
07-01-2014
| Friday, November 15, 2019 - 12:30 pm
There is a difference between what you are speaking about and what Dan did. He did all kinds of inappropriate touching to those young women. He could have stopped, but he just kept going on.
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Strategist
Member
07-01-2014
| Friday, November 15, 2019 - 12:38 pm
Even the most "touchy feely" people don't generally go around wiggling people toes, brushing up against them, rubbing them up and down the arm for no reason, running their fingers through their hair.
I hug friends when I see them, but I don't do that! That is far too much "touchy feely" for me.
Kellee was explicit in voicing her discomfort and that is the bottom line.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Friday, November 15, 2019 - 12:43 pm
I would forgive you if you had some kind of dementia or memory loss, but I know you better than that!
I'm 61 and I do have memory loss. I can't remember people's names, let alone their proclivities about being touched or not.
And a lifetime of *habit* is hard to change. I try to remember never to touch *anyone* (although I think that is a sad state of affairs really), but sometimes I absentmindedly do.
And by the way, Dan did NOT run his fingers through her hair, he fixed a stray hair. Like a parent might do to a child. Not in a sexual way. Or friends might do to each other. That was MY impression of what she said. Granted, she may not see them as friends, I get that. And to her it was offensive, but probably because she didn't like him.
It would be helpful to not mischaracterize things. And I've been known to rub arms and fix hair, of relative strangers. Oh the horror.
I'm sorry for my sarcasm, but really, things can go too far. Europeans think we're a bunch of prudes, and perhaps for good reason.
We have to understand the difference between TRUE assault and affectionate touching. Or we'll win nothing and lose a lot.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Friday, November 15, 2019 - 12:45 pm
I think inappropriateness is often in the eye of the beholder. Which makes it really rough on those of us who just care about people.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Friday, November 15, 2019 - 12:49 pm
All I'm saying and I'm done here, is that we are SOOOOOO quick to judge. Dan said he meant nothing by it, his attitude counts also. Just as much as Kellee's.
And to me, it seemed he offered a clear and sincere apology at tribal. So again, I don't think it was meant offensively, so should not be taken that way. And he learned a valuable lesson, one I'm still trying to remember.
And I'm not sure I regard it as a good thing.
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Strategist
Member
07-01-2014
| Friday, November 15, 2019 - 1:04 pm
We are quick to judge Dan and Kellee. But there is a lot of video evidence. Dan needed to learn that lesson. If you are an older man, don't go around inappropriately touching young women again and again.
I would be open to seeing more evidence that reinforces Dan's position that he's just "touchy feely". I wonder if he did that with all the men on Survivor - those that all voted for him to stay. They much be close too.
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Jimmer
Board Administrator
08-29-2000
| Friday, November 15, 2019 - 1:54 pm
If you are an older man, don't go around inappropriately touching young women again and again.
I'm sure you didn't mean to imply it's okay if you're a younger man?
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Strategist
Member
07-01-2014
| Friday, November 15, 2019 - 1:57 pm
No I didn't. I'm specifically referring to this show and Dan. Of course, nobody should go around inappropriately touching anyone again and again.
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