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| Author |
Message |
Ketchuplover
Member
08-30-2000
| Sunday, January 30, 2011 - 4:40 pm 
9.999999999999999999999999999999999999999/10
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Chaplin
Member
01-08-2006
| Wednesday, February 02, 2011 - 1:18 am
I loved the film and it definitely was a psychological film not horror. Natalie Portman was amazing in it. The dance scenes were brilliant. I want Natalie Portman to win an Oscar for this film.
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Naja
Member
06-28-2003
| Monday, February 21, 2011 - 8:09 am
I finally went to see this last night. I though some parts were a little slow, but other than that I really enjoyed it. It's definitely more of a psychological drama. When it was over, I had some questions about her mother, but since they are spoilerish, I'll ask someplace else.
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Naja
Member
06-28-2003
| Monday, February 21, 2011 - 8:58 am
I'll have to ask here. I see the other thread says not for spoilers. I'll put it in spoiler tags.
Spoiler
Click below to view spoiler | I have a question. Was her mother real or not? There are a few things that made me think she wasn't.
It seemed like only she and her mother could see these scratches. They even zoomed in a couple of times to the scratches area while she was at the theatre getting ready, and there were no scratches. The scratches only seemed to show up at certain dramatic times.
Then there was a short conversation at some point about how she felt bad she couldn't get her mom into the big announcement event. (Of course there is going to be an excuse for someone imaginary not to be at a public event)
And then at the end, Portman leaves her mom at home in a mess, yet during the show her mom was smack in the middle of the audience all perfectly made up and smiling.
All of these 3 things alone didn't mean much, together they seemed to point to the mom be imaginary to me. |
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Brenda1966
Member
07-02-2002
| Monday, February 21, 2011 - 9:31 am
Naja, that didn't even occur to me.
Spoiler
Click below to view spoiler | | I didn't even think that the mother was imagined. I thought she was real, but it wasn't clear to me on whether she was mean and manipulative (like the scene with the cake), or if she was a nice person dealing with a mentally ill child - I figured it might be a combo of both. Maybe the mother was kind of evil and that pushed Natalie to mental illness. Not sure what to think. |
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Naja
Member
06-28-2003
| Monday, February 21, 2011 - 10:16 am
Brenda, yeah, I see what you are saying, and to add one more thing:
Spoiler
Click below to view spoiler | | Now that I have thought on it a little, just like we found out how some of the things that happened with Milas's character ended up being in her mind (the sex scene and the murder scene), maybe some of the scenes with her mother were in her mind, too. Just speculating. I really have no idea. |
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Brenda1966
Member
07-02-2002
| Monday, February 21, 2011 - 10:39 am
Yes, Spoiler
Click below to view spoiler | | I think some were imagined or delusions. But how much was? |
I don't really know and I didn't love the film enough to care to see it again. I appreciated the film and was glad I saw it. Portman was impressive. But I have no plans to watch again.
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Cwcoop
Member
04-19-2008
| Monday, February 21, 2011 - 5:01 pm
Naja, you are spot on in your first post.
do we really have to have spoiler boxes to discuss? I am pretty sure we can have a discussion here. Same reason I never went into the Inception thread until after I saw the movie for myself.
There are also other signs that you don't mention to support your theory, so I wanted to tell you others too, but want to be out in the open. LOL
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Naja
Member
06-28-2003
| Monday, February 21, 2011 - 5:32 pm
Cwcoop, thank you! Please let me in the other things you noticed to support my theory.
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Naja
Member
06-28-2003
| Monday, February 21, 2011 - 6:24 pm
Yeah, I'm not sure about the rules, Cwcoop. It's hard to talk about a movie and not be able to talk about the major things that happened.
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Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Monday, February 21, 2011 - 6:54 pm
The way we have it set up, the threads that name specific movies in the title like "Black Swan" are for people who have seen the movie and wish to fully discuss it. So the thread may contain spoilers as part of that open discussion.
There is another thread called "Recommendations - No Spoilers, Please!..." where people can post non-spoiling reviews for people who have yet to see a movie.
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Cwcoop
Member
04-19-2008
| Monday, February 21, 2011 - 7:06 pm
Thanks Jimmer - working on a post under that premise exactly.
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Naja
Member
06-28-2003
| Monday, February 21, 2011 - 7:09 pm
Thank you for the explanation of the rules, Jimmer. It did feel weird having to put spoiler tags for something in a place designated to discuss that same something.
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Naja
Member
06-28-2003
| Monday, February 21, 2011 - 7:19 pm
Ok Cwcoop. I am waiting for the other things you noticed 
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Cwcoop
Member
04-19-2008
| Monday, February 21, 2011 - 7:19 pm
OK - major spoiler alert, including the ending!!!!!
Naja, IMO, the mother was NOT really a live person in Nina's (Portman's)life, in part, for those thoughts that you have pointed out already.
First, I must say that I saw the movie by myself and went to IMDB chat threads to read other opinions - I was so intrigued by the confusing theories that I convinced DH to go see it, and I saw it a second time (like 6th sense, you notice things differently a second time) Brenda, you never know about seeing a movie a second time - perhaps you will someday ETA: perhaps someday see THIS movie a second time (PS: hugs to your DD! I presume she still has the Mary Poppins program I sent her - She is growing so fast and so beautiful)
Brenda, you also nailed some it too.
Nina was definitely emotionally and sexually abused by her mother. Nina was emotionally stunted as a result, which is why she could not tap into the whole 'black swan' side of the dance, it just wasn't in her until she met Lilly and had some competition. It didn't hurt that the director was seducing her at the same time...
One thing I noticed the second time was that Nina never talked to her mom in front of other people - no one was ever around to witness her convos (with the exception of Lilly, but I will come back to that). The one time we saw her talk to her mom on the phone, she was alone in a bathroom stall to tell her mom she got the part. Remember, she said "Mommy I got the part", then she came out and the ••••• was on the mirror - all in her mind.
Nina also was fantasizing about Lilly at many points as pointed out (the dance club, the lesbian sex scene and the time that Nina 'attacked' her, and, as mentioned above, since the whole sex scene was imaginary, so was the conversation that Lilly "witnessed" at the apartment). As was revealed, Lilly was nothing like the ogre that Nina, in her mind, had attributed to her. She was even quite nice to Nina. I wondered for a bit if Lilly was 'real'. She was... I think (LOL), but not the way Nina saw/imagined her, in her pursuit to tap into the black swan frame of mind.
The one thing that DH and I disagree on, is whether or not Nina "really" died at the end. Aronosfsky left it ambiguous, as he is wont to do (ie: the wrestler). DH pointed out that while Nina clearly injured herself, they were calling the ambulance, and technically she could have lived, but with her new life (shedding the past abuse of her mother, to return as new).
Or else, she DID literally died with the "perfect perfomance" that she so longed for and dreamt about.
I am interested in your thoughts about AFTER the final shot. Do you think she was saved and began life as a new/independent, good and bad, person, or did she really die from her perfect performance (not to mention the self inflicted injuries)
Naja, you were spot on about the mother ending up at the performance after Nina had just messed her up - all a fantasy.
Anywho, I am rambling...
I loved this movie. I love that I could not stop thinking about it after the fact. Trying to put all the pieces (right, wrong or indifferent) together.
There is so much more, but I will wait for any response to what I wrote so far. I may be off my rocker too... Keep that in mind...LOL
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Brenda1966
Member
07-02-2002
| Monday, February 21, 2011 - 7:32 pm
Thanks CWCoop! YEs, we still have the Mary Poppins book! And I do love when people post that they are posting spoilers. So...
Spoilers below!!!.....
So, you think the mother did abuse her, but is not in the picture, more of a memory/delusion. As for the ending, at that point I didn't really care if she died. I figured she was so mentally gone that there was little hope for her overall. Of course, I would love a happy ending, but I didn't see any tidbits to suggest that. She seemed very, very mentally ill. I guess one could argue that her wound couldn't have been that large or it would have bled much sooner and much more, so maybe just a flesh wound.
I don't mind the ambiguity.
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Juju2bigdog
Member
10-27-2000
| Monday, February 21, 2011 - 8:00 pm
Whoa! It never even occurred to me that the mother was imaginary, but it sure makes sense.
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Cwcoop
Member
04-19-2008
| Monday, February 21, 2011 - 8:09 pm
Hi Brenda - more spoilers....LOL
The mother (IMHO) did emotionally and sexually abuse Nina.
There was a scene when Nina was laying in bed, and her mother said (off screen) if she was "ready for her" and she showed up at the door in her black nighty. When Nina had the fantasy about Lilly making love to her, there is a (nano-second) moment, when her mothers face appears (as if she has been there before).
My point about the ending is that perhaps Nina lived and that she shed her inhibitions. She maimed her 'mother' and told her that she was NOT her darling/sweetie (whatever her catch phrase was) at the end - almost as if she was was reborn, but maybe she , in fact, died for the perfect performace.
I love that it is not crystal clear. I also agree with other posters that Natalie Portman (maybe through Darren Aronsfsky) was able to tap into something that deserves an Oscar.
(though, I have read that her paramour, ie baby daddy - was in a serious relationship until this movie, and he is considered the Brad Pitt of the ballet circuit)
I don't hold that against Natalie, just saying...
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Naja
Member
06-28-2003
| Monday, February 21, 2011 - 8:22 pm
I feel pretty much vindicated now that you have posted, CWcoop. Thank you
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Cwcoop
Member
04-19-2008
| Monday, February 21, 2011 - 8:50 pm
YW Naja.
Anything for a former Chi-Town'er.
Again, I may be spouting 'shite' about the movie, it is just MHO from reading others thoughts and having seen it a second time through some of those eyes. It actually made more sense to me.
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Cwcoop
Member
04-19-2008
| Monday, February 21, 2011 - 9:04 pm
I am also anxious to see thoughts of those that see the film on DVD.
I hope that this thread will grow when the DVD comes out.
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