| Author |
Message |
Brenda1966
Member
07-02-2002
| Friday, December 27, 2013 - 5:17 pm 
I've just started watching too. Am laid up after wisdom tooth removal so I figured this was a good bet. So far I'm enjoying. I think I'm on ep 3 or 4.
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Kitt
Member
09-05-2000
| Friday, December 27, 2013 - 7:40 pm
Me too, I'm near the end, couple of episodes to go. I really liked the early eps but Piper's become a bit irritating as time goes on. I like almost all of the other characters though. I really like the girl who's sweet on the nice guard, although I fear that's about to go horribly wrong.
I've never really thought about low security prisons, on the surface (if the show is representative) it looks pretty easy but then they show the interactions with powerful inmates, and the abuse or even legitimate treatment by guards, and you realise how bad it could be.
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Friday, December 27, 2013 - 7:47 pm
"Anyone know what caused him to turn against her so quickly and so much?"
After he had Chapman sent to the "shoe" for her "lesbian behavior" while dancing with Alex, he went down to see her the next day to tell her he was releasing her back to her regular cell block. (This turnabout for him only took place after that other prison official told him that he was taking her behavior so personally when he punished her for her "lesbian dancing" display by sending her to the "shoe".)
However, she was so angry at him that when he showed up to to talk to her, she went off on that very mean and personal rant, accusing him of desiring her and wanting her to be his girlfriend which she said would never ever happen. She really put him in his place but not in a kind way at all. Everything she said was true, but an inmate saying stuff like that to a prison official was crossing a line because the mean things she said to him were things that could never be taken back.
It seemed to me that this was that exact moment he just shut down any notion of ever trying to help her again and his attitude switched from trying to advise her in a positive way to turning against her completely.
Later, Chapman was berating herself for saying all those hurtful things to him and she kept calling herself "stupid" for doing so. She realized she blew it with that cruel rant, but by then it was too late. His refusal to do anything when he saw the christian meth head coming at her with a sharpened stake demonstrated just how much he had turned against her.
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Gumby
Member
08-14-2004
| Friday, December 27, 2013 - 8:01 pm
You're right SFJF, I had forgotten all of that. Thanks for the reminder.
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Holly
Member
07-21-2001
| Saturday, December 28, 2013 - 4:18 am
Thanks, Sanfran. But it was the fact that he punished her SO severely for dancing that didn't make sense to me and seemed to come out of the blue (I think I missed the reason, and that's what I'm looking for here!) That, imo, was the point he became vindictive toward her because something happened to piss him off prior to the dancing scene, not when she "put him in his place" when he visited her in solitary. What was it that made him so angry at her and caused him to over-react to her dancing, that's my question.
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Saturday, December 28, 2013 - 12:49 pm
The short answer is that he acted that way because he was "homophobic". That's all it takes for some people to react the way he did. The "phobia" part of that word denotes an "irrational fear".
Don't look for any kind of logical reason for his anti-lesbian reaction. Homophobia is not logical. Homophobia is totally irrational and completely unjustified
Just like in real life, some people overreact and freak out when they see any kind of same sex affection. This guy was extremely anti-lesbian. He brought up the topic all the time. Even that female administrator who seems to be the boss of the male administrators in the prison told him he needs to "get some help" with his anti-lesbian attitude.
He had a real judgmental attitude when it came to lesbians and he just couldn't get past it. He befriended Chapman because he thought he understood her and he warned her several times about not getting involved with lesbian behavior but then, when he saw Chapman and Alex "lesbian dancing", he flipped out and overreacted by sending her to the shoe.
When that other prison administrator guy told him he was going too far in his punishment of her and that he was taking her lesbian behavior too personally, he must have taken that admonition to heart somewhat because he went down to the shoe talk to her.....but that's when she went off on him, ranting about how he had the hots for her and was just acting jealous, which caused him to dig his heels in and turn against her even more.
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Brenda1966
Member
07-02-2002
| Saturday, December 28, 2013 - 11:45 pm
I just finished the season. Holly, I saw a change in how the advisor looked at her after she went around him to get the track opened up. Remember how she asked him for it and he told her he would if she got the phone. She got the phone, but wouldn't tell him who's phone it was, so he wouldn't open the track for her. So, she then asked the new female guard, who went to the higher up guy and got the track open 8 hours a week. I think that's when he started to turn on her, and that happened before the dancing.
I can't believe her fiancee dumped her on the phone. what a coward.
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Holly
Member
07-21-2001
| Sunday, December 29, 2013 - 7:11 am
Thanks, Brenda. Yes, that was it!! I missed about 30 seconds of an episode (bbb--or something), saw the change in how he looked at her, and knew something I had missed had triggered his rage at her. So, it had to do with the track but I just couldn't recall for sure for I missed a part of that scene. And yes, the fiancee went down a dozen notches that last couple of episodes. I think "fame" went to his head a little too much.
He's got his own set of problems, for sure, Sanfran, but I saw his warning to her about lesbians more in line with looking out for her best interests rather than outright homophobia. She is (or at least was), without a doubt, way too naive to do well on her own in an environment like prison.
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Sunday, December 29, 2013 - 3:16 pm
I don't think I'm the only viewer that sees Healy's main motive for turning on Chapman to be his obsessive homophobia against lesbians.
Check out this article by a writer who saw Healy the same way I did:
ON MR. HEALY.
There is a lot that makes Orange is the New Black surprising and groundbreaking, but I want to talk about Mr. Healy for a minute.
We’re introduced to Mr. Healy in the first episode and inclined to like him. At least, I was. He is immediately kinder and more sympathetic to Piper than anyone else we’ve met in the prison. He’s not rough with her. He seems to know where she’s coming from. More than anyone else, Healy allows Piper to get her bearings, tells her what she can expect from her time at Litchfield, and presents himself as the sort of figure with whom she might associate in the “real” world. He isn’t hardened like her bunkmates. The scent of prison is nowhere on him. Piper relates to him because he seems “normal,” and as viewers, so do we.
Of course, we know right off the bat that he is homophobic.
He tells her that lesbians are dangerous and will try to be her friends, but that she shouldn’t let them.
<snip>
Full article can be found here (It's a short article but worth the read):
http://orangeis.tumblr.com/post/56629356645/on-mr-healy
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Sunday, December 29, 2013 - 3:40 pm
"but I saw his warning to her about lesbians more in line with looking out for her best interests rather than outright homophobia."
How is it not outright homophobia to befriend a new inmate and then warn her to stay away from lesbians?
Healy has the mindset that all lesbians are evil and violent and should be avoided at all costs. Because of his false belief in such a negative stereotype, it never occurred to him that Chapman is the same kind of woman he's warning her to stay away from.
He flipped out and sent her to isolation because he finally "got" that she has is sexually attracted to another woman. Chapman is the kind of woman he warned her to stay away from. He felt betrayed for trusting someone that represents the kind of women that disgusts him and that he distrusts the most.
Never underestimate the power of homophobia...it's the motive for millions of Americans who support discrimination against innocent gay citizens. Look at all the states who have actually added new laws and changed their state constitutions solely to discriminate against gay people. The courts have found over and over than there is no legitimate or compelling need for a state to deny the same rights to gay couples that straight couples enjoy. The courts found that Prop 8 was enacted solely based on "animus towards gay people". That's pure unadulterated homophobia.
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Brenda1966
Member
07-02-2002
| Sunday, December 29, 2013 - 4:10 pm
I don't doubt his homophobia at all, but I think there's more to it than that. He married a mail order bride, so I think he prefers women he can "help". He likes them needy and helpless so he can "save" them. She's made it clear she's stronger than he thinks she is, then throw in the lesbianism and now he's completely turned off when he was originally turned on. (or maybe he's repulsed at himself for still being turned on?)
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Holly
Member
07-21-2001
| Sunday, December 29, 2013 - 4:40 pm
Sorry, I just don't agree that his main motivation was simply homophobia. He has serious issues--and especially control issues-- when it comes to women in general that run much deeper than homophobia. He cannot even control his mail-order bride, or Russian M-i-L, both living off him incidentally and who laugh at him to his face. So then when Piper disobeyed him too and went over his head, and he lost "control" over her too, that's where his rage came from. Not everything has to do with homophobia, you know. Anyway, if he was so disturbed by lesbianism, how come we don't see him getting bothered by it when it involves other prisoners--only her? He could otherwise care less about it, is the impression I get. So, I think his rage came from somewhere else, his whole relationship with women in general, and his feelings of impotence in regard to being unable to control the very one he had to 'buy' to be his wife. And the fact he had to go the mail-order bride route to get a woman, speaks volumes about the man and his relationships with women, imo.
How is it not outright homophobia to befriend a new inmate and then warn her to stay away from lesbians?
Well, all too often homosexual violence in prison is carried out on heterosexuals. Fact. Maybe not such bad advice to give a new, obviously naive inmate you peg to be hetero. As I said, not everything is outright homophobia, Sanfran. I'd be very wary myself if ever imprisoned. Last thing I'd want to have to deal with on top of everything else incarceration brings is unwanted sexual advances--from either guards or lesbians. Look what happened with 'Crazy Eyes' who just took a fancy to Piper--uninvited. Had she not been bunked with that older black woman who seems to command some authority of sorts within the inmate community, who knows how that situation might have ended up.
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Holly
Member
07-21-2001
| Sunday, December 29, 2013 - 4:45 pm
Of course, we know right off the bat that he is homophobic.
How so? I don't know where this is coming from.
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Sunday, December 29, 2013 - 5:06 pm
"then throw in the lesbianism and now he's completely turned off when he was originally turned on. (or maybe he's repulsed at himself for still being turned on?)"
But what you said here is a perfect example of his homophobia being the motivation to turn against Chapman.....her lesbian behavior was the pivotal reason that made him turn against her. She was not the "wholesome girl next door" that he projected onto her when they met....she was the evil thing (in his warped homophobic mind) that he had warned her against.
I agree that he has some kind of savior complex....but not when it comes to lesbians. Lesbians are what Healy was trying to save Chapman from, so finding out she actually was a lesbian (or at least was involved in some sort of lesbian relationship in the prison) was a complete betrayal in his mind.
Another thing that pointed out how much homophobia is a part of his makeup was when he went out of his way to call her fiance tell him she was in a lesbian relationship behind bars. That kind of harassment is not in his job description and Healy had no other reason to call him and share such information other than to hurt Chapman....and that hateful act of homophobia could've cost Chapman her relationship AND it could've cost him his job. His administrator boss really came down on him for that and she told him to never do such a thing again and that he needed to "get some help" to deal with that kind of attitude.
He saw Chapman as a good girl and he saw lesbians as evil and suspicious. When he found out Chapman had lesbian feelings, he could have looked at things differently and decided that maybe not all lesbians were so bad after all....but instead, he looked at the situation and decided that Chapman was not so good after all, that she was evil and suspicious like all other lesbians.
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Sunday, December 29, 2013 - 5:16 pm
"Well, all too often homosexual violence in prison is carried out on heterosexuals. Fact."
Most often, homosexual violence in prison is carried out on heterosexuals by heterosexuals. Fact.
"Sorry, I just don't agree that his main motivation was simply homophobia."
Homophobia, like racism, is an incredibly strong motivator and it is often the motivation for beatings, murder, job loss, lack of civil rights, the right to adopt, the right to maintain a secure family unit, and a million other things that straight people just take for granted.
No, not "everything" is about homophobia, but homophobia is the root cause for most attacks, (physical, verbal and legislative) against gay people.
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Pamy
Member
01-01-2002
| Sunday, December 29, 2013 - 9:24 pm
Healy is a TOTAL homophobe!
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Brenda1966
Member
07-02-2002
| Sunday, December 29, 2013 - 10:21 pm
Yep, he's got a lot of issues. I was hoping he was going to be an ally, but he's a huge disappointment and a jerk (and that's putting it lightly).
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Shelb724
Member
10-20-2002
| Monday, December 30, 2013 - 10:24 am
We just watched this season on Netflix and it was so good! Does anyone know if there will be a second season and when it will start? I sure hope so because they can't end it the way they did!
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Gumby
Member
08-14-2004
| Monday, December 30, 2013 - 11:54 am
Shelb, there is a second season in production right now. It is to be released sometime in 2014, but no specific date yet. I guess the second season will focus more on the other characters rather than just Piper.
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Lakecat
Member
10-01-2006
| Monday, December 30, 2013 - 7:29 pm
They never got to Suzanne's back story. I'd like to know how she came adopted by her white parents and what she did to land herself in prison.
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Daydreamer
Member
05-30-2008
| Tuesday, December 31, 2013 - 7:49 am
Lakecat, I agree. I find her to be THE most interesting character on the show.
And I loved when she auditioned for the talent show by doing a perfect double-axel (perfect in the air, as it was sans ice skates, so it would be hard to tell if she "stuck" the landing.) She looked so graceful!
Also, a general FYI -- punished prisoners don't go to "the shoe," they go to a SHU (Segregated Housing Unit -- the new term for "solitary").
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Tuesday, December 31, 2013 - 4:37 pm
Thank you, Daydreamer!
I was wondering why they chose "the shoe" as a nickname for solitary! 
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Lakecat
Member
10-01-2006
| Tuesday, December 31, 2013 - 5:10 pm
I agree with you about Crazy Eyes. I looked her up and she really hasn't had that's my acting jobs.
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Marameko
Member
07-14-2002
| Tuesday, December 31, 2013 - 5:58 pm
Was Red's back story explained as to why she is in the pokey ? I recall seeing her hubby and some rough looking characters as well as the women who seemed to look down on her.
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Tuesday, December 31, 2013 - 6:17 pm
They never showed Red being arrested or committing any kind of crime other than that altercation she had with one of the women (mob wives, I think).
During one of the power walks Red got angry and punched one of those snooty women in the chest and one of the other women exclaimed, "You popped her boob!" (or something to that effect).
I guess she had accidentally burst an implant the snooty woman had when she hit her. That's the only thing I can think of that she did as a "civilian" that could have gotten her in trouble with the law.
Then again, she did usurp her wimpy husband's chair at the "mob table" in their shop, so I think she became the active mob partner in that marriage as her husband was demoted to getting their coffee. Maybe she got in trouble with that group of men and they got busted while running some kind of organized crime ring.
That's just a guess because they never showed us exactly why she was imprisoned.
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