| Author |
Message |
Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Wednesday, October 28, 2015 - 4:20 pm 
I agree. I love my DD more than anything. It would have to be something ridiculously extreme to change that. 
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Lilfair
Member
07-09-2003
| Wednesday, October 28, 2015 - 4:25 pm
Kar, If either of my children started believing in the supernatural I'd be concerned....however I'd still love them. Would you expect me to say if they started believing in the supernatural I'd divorce myself from them?? . Lol. I'm not a Duggar. My kids are allowed to think for themselves. I don't use a book to scare them into believing as I do . And I didn't raise a son to fondle his sisters vagina or breasts. Also my married son doesn't have online sex accounts with AM. And. Was able to do all that without the fear of a god. Go figure.
Some of my best friends believe in varying different supernatural deities . lol.
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Texasdeb
Member
05-23-2003
| Wednesday, October 28, 2015 - 4:45 pm
I'm not strongly religious but I'm definitely not an atheist. I would not hold anyone's religion or lack of religion against them just because their beliefs differ from mine......unless, they pushed their beliefs on me.
I agree w/Kar on the whole hunting thing. I would never/could never harm an animal on purpose. However, I have hunters in my family & have my whole adult life. They just know not to discus it with me & all is good.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Wednesday, October 28, 2015 - 5:18 pm
Well, Lilfair, you did say you would ground her and lock her away... which doesn't sound very accepting. 
And I didn't raise a son to fondle his sisters vagina or breasts.
Are you saying the Duggars did this? Seriously?
Why can't we just talk about it without saying things that aren't true?
And finally, I would note that lots of religious people don't have kids that have issues or have AM accounts either. It isn't about fearing God. Not everyone who is religious believes in a God that should be feared.
sigh.
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Lilfair
Member
07-09-2003
| Wednesday, October 28, 2015 - 5:32 pm
As I've said many many times it is MY belief that the rigid sexual teachings of the duggars forced Josh to explore sexual "curiosity" on his sisters by fondling his sisters vaginas and breasts even of his very very young sister. Your beliefs are different, I know that. That as what he thought was the best option to quench his normal "curiosity"/horney-ness.
Locking my daughter away and grounding her forever, please tell me that my attempt at humor didn't go over your head. I know you didn't think I meant that literally. .
Adding- when did I ever say or even infer that all religious people raise their sons to fondle their sisters. I'm only talking about josh not any other family and not even the other sons. I've always and only wrote about Josh. I hope you understand this. I've said this before. It's only josh the molester I'm talking about. Josh the individual. josh the sister molester. Josh the God fearing judgemental anti gay Josh.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Wednesday, October 28, 2015 - 6:11 pm
Locking my daughter away and grounding her forever, please tell me that my attempt at humor didn't go over your head. I know you didn't think I meant that literally.
Thank you, but while I don't think you meant that literally, it did sound like you would be very upset. That's why I asked. The metaphor of locking someone awaya and grounding them forever indicates a great deal of displeasure at their behavior.
If I don't understand your posts, perhaps it's because they aren't clear?
My comment about many religious people raising good kids was a response to you saying that you did that Was able to do all that without the fear of a god.
I was only pointing out that many religious people raise good kids without the "fear of a god" also.
when did I ever say or even infer that all religious people raise their sons to fondle their sisters.
The Duggars didn't raise their son to do this either. Neither do most of the families who end up with kids with issues. You make it sound like they did it purposefully, and I find that unfortunate.
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Texasdeb
Member
05-23-2003
| Wednesday, October 28, 2015 - 6:25 pm
Josh is troubled. Doesn't every family have someone that isn't marching to the same beat. I do not judge this whole family for what Josh has done. I truly believe that his parents had no idea that he was as troubled as it seems he is. I only have 3 adult children & my youngest, my only son is troubled with drug issues. You couldn't ask for better adult kids than my 2 daughters!
Please, don't blame the parents! They did everything in their power to help Josh when he was a minor. How would they have ever known that as an adult, Josh would have this proven sex addiction. I think that they are just as shocked as everyone else!
Yes, they did have 19 kids & would have welcomed even more. I do not understand that! I only ever wanted to totally mother my own children & did that well with the 1st 2. However, I still feel like I failed my youngest since he is the only one with major issues.
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Mamabatsy
Member
08-05-2005
| Wednesday, October 28, 2015 - 6:39 pm
They did everything in their power to help Josh
IMO they did not do what they could have done to help Josh. Instead of getting him to a qualified therapist, they sent him off to build a house. They might (nothing is certain) have been able to nip his problem in the bud. We'll never know because they protected him rather than helped him. It's called enabling for a reason.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Wednesday, October 28, 2015 - 7:05 pm
Any parent would "protect" their child.. of course!
As I've noted before, there are simply not great options in these cases. If you seek out a qualified therapist, they have to report.
And as we have seen over and over and over again, once in the reporting system, your kid's well being is taken out of your hands... and sometimes with disastrous results.
I simply cannot fault any parent for not taking that risk.
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Lilfair
Member
07-09-2003
| Wednesday, October 28, 2015 - 7:58 pm
Mama, exactly. After Josh's first admission to his parents of his desire and in fact actual molestation of his sisters, the parents, in my eyes are culpable for his further fondling of his sisters vaginas and breasts. And just to be clear I am only giving my opinion regarding Josh duggar and his parents and the issue of repeated sibling sexual assault .
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Wednesday, October 28, 2015 - 8:06 pm
Sorry, but to me, it is oversimplistic to blame the parents. We really don't know if the outcome would have been different under other circumstances. We just don't.
Great parents sometimes raise kids that have significant issues. Awful parents sometimes raise kids that are exemplary.
That doesn't mean parents don't matter. It just means that parents have *influence* but not *control.*
As I said, we don't have a crystal ball, or some way of magically seeing if things would have been different with different influence. That's the nature of human beings. We're complicated, not simple.
Here's another thing about human beings - we like simple explanations, in spite of the fact that simple explanations aren't reliable. We are horrifically illogical. But simple explanations make us feel better. They make us think bad things can't happen to us (because I'm not like "them").
But they can. And they most certainly do.
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Texasdeb
Member
05-23-2003
| Wednesday, October 28, 2015 - 9:41 pm
Kar, you make great comments & I know you are making educated comments! I am not educated in "why" some folks are like they are & "why" some of us are more the way that the majority considers normal. Who knows?
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Mamabatsy
Member
08-05-2005
| Wednesday, October 28, 2015 - 9:55 pm
Kar, what you call protecting, I call enabling. When my then 15 year old granddaughter was caught shoplifting and the store called my daughter, she pleaded with them to call the police. They said that she seems like a really nice little girl and she really feels bad, she's crying so hard. Well, we knew all about her crying. She can still turn it on and off at will. So my daughter went and picked her up and made an appointment with a child therapist the next day. Either she stopped shoplifting or got really good at it because she hasn't been caught again.
Sometimes you have to bite the bullet and get tough even if there are risks.
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Ophiliasgrandma
Member
09-04-2001
| Thursday, October 29, 2015 - 6:18 am
Would I be correct in thinking that child molesters in the legal system are treated a whole lot differently than shoplifting?
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Lilfair
Member
07-09-2003
| Thursday, October 29, 2015 - 8:03 am
Kar wrote-"We really don't know if the outcome would have been different under other circumstances. We just don't."
Exactly, so then my opinion is as valid as anyone else’s? We just don’t know.
As I have said numerous times -Josh's perversion, in my opinion is due in some part if not in large part to not being able to explore his "curiosity" due to his parents religious beliefs. Naturally, I don't expect everyone to have my same opinion but it is as valid as any other posters. We just don’t know.
For all we know Josh was molested himself and decided to carry on the tradition. The latest about the homeschooling program the Duggars belong to apparently has had issue with sexual misconduct. We don't know.
Maybe daddy Duggar is a pervert too and the acorn didn't fall far from the tree. We just don't know.
I'm still sticking with my opinion that Josh's "curiosity" was so strong that his only option was molesting his sisters. And that his rigid religious upbringing surrounding sexuality wasn't something that he could adhere to so he went after his sisters. We just don’t know.
Or maybe god made Josh a bad seed to test Michele’s and Jim Bob’s faith, we just don’t know. Hmmm that’s it maybe he was born a molester, we just don’t know. Oh the possibilities of Josh Duggar’s perversion…we just don't know.
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Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Thursday, October 29, 2015 - 8:16 am
The point is that we are just speculating using the limited information that is available to us. Which is something that humans are very good at doing.
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Ophiliasgrandma
Member
09-04-2001
| Thursday, October 29, 2015 - 8:19 am
Lilfair, where does a 14 year old boy go to 'explore his sexual curiosity'?
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Lilfair
Member
07-09-2003
| Thursday, October 29, 2015 - 9:34 am
Ophila, exploring with classmates, girlfriends, fathers playboys, masturbation,online porn. Playing spin the bottle. Fooling around with girls by holding hands, hugs, kissing at parties, school dances...it's obvious, to me (IMO), Josh went the route of fondling his sisters vaginas and breasts along with a baby sitter. He had no other options because his "curiosity" was so great.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Thursday, October 29, 2015 - 9:56 am
Thank you, TexasDeb.
Even the best experts in the field know there is a lot more that we don't know than we know about why people do what they do - especially for specific cases. It's very easy to judge and condemn, until it happens to you.
OG - you are quite correct. A shoplifter will not be removed from the family and her parents won't be looked at suspiciously as potential molesters themselves.
Exactly, so then my opinion is as valid as anyone else’s?
Opinions are more or less valid depending on the factual basis they have. No, not all opinions are equally valid, or you would have to say that the Duggars opinions about things are JUST as valid as yours. Which you clearly don't believe.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Thursday, October 29, 2015 - 9:58 am
exploring with classmates, girlfriends, fathers playboys, masturbation,online porn.
Some of these things would cause your local social services to intervene also. That is the state of the system today. And if you are deemed to be "at fault" as the parent, say goodbye to your kid, hello to endless classes, therapy and the harsh judgment of some social workers - along with a big fat bill for the time your child spends in foster care.
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Lilfair
Member
07-09-2003
| Thursday, October 29, 2015 - 10:10 am
LOL Kar, you're funny. This is the way its been for eons ("eons" exaggeration/funny on line porn hasn't been around for eons-this I know) . Teen boys and girls play in a sexual way....its not going to stop unless of course you have the fear of god beaten into your head.
Local social services intervene on teenagers masturbating?, finding dads legal porn stash playboys?, that's funny.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Thursday, October 29, 2015 - 10:18 am
Actually, it's not funny. And that you think it is shows that you don't understand how it works today.
I said "some" of these things. Specifically experimenting with your classmates - could get you labeled a sex offender for life, even if it was consensual. Viewing online porn? That could get a child removed from the home, especially if friends come over and view it with them, or it involves someone underage. And if they copy some of those pics and Email them to their friends? It's a crime. With a record. Texting a naked photo? Also a crime and branded a sex offender for life.
It's not like when we were kids, not at all. You are lucky to not have experienced any of that.
its not going to stop unless of course you have the fear of god beaten into your head.
And that is just another derogatory remark about religion. What's the point of that?
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Lilfair
Member
07-09-2003
| Thursday, October 29, 2015 - 10:28 am
I'm lucky to live in a community where masturbation, porn, fooling around isn't instantly thought of as evil.
I don't know how I raised a son to have a masters degree in special ed and working oh his PHD or a daughter who brings joy and happiness to just about anyone she comes in contact with.
I just must have been lucky not to have had social services at my doorstep on a daily basis, nor my neighbors, friends, family. Just got lucky. Or maybe we are the norm and others are the rare occurrences social services workers and the legal system failed.
Bring it back to the pervert Josh...where the heck were the social services??? Oh that's right mom and dad kept it hidden until time ran out. hmmm
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Thursday, October 29, 2015 - 10:45 am
Yes, you should count yourself as very lucky. Absolutely.
And hopefully you should be reminded that not everyone is so lucky.
But your comparison is off. You are speaking as someone who never got involved in the system. I am speaking of people who ARE in the system, and I have experience in this area.
The social services system is broken. They often over intervene in cases where they shouldn't and under intervene in cases where they are needed. Their case loads are too big, and they are the absolute lowest paid professionals in the field of psychology. Imagine going to college for 6 years and then earning $20,000 as a starting salary!
There are certainly some who do that work because they believe in it, but the most competent ones I know get burned out early and leave for jobs that will actually earn them a living wage. Can't blame them.
I worked with local social services for quite a long time here, from working for a battered women's shelter, to volunteer work for a center that housed abused children removed from the home, and through a program for at-risk children. I saw children removed who should NEVER have been removed, and children returned who should NEVER have been returned. One of those young ladies committed suicide when she was returned to a stepfather who was sexually molesting her.
So, please don't tell me these are rare occurrences. I have seen it, and suffered the heartbreak right along with kids and families.
ONE occurrence is too much, that's someone's CHILD! And in the two counties where I worked, it was far more frequent than anyone can imagine. Over and over and over, till my heart was so broken I couldn't stand it any more.
If you've never had a kid in the system, you just don't know.
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Seamonkey
Moderator
09-07-2000
| Thursday, October 29, 2015 - 10:45 am
I understand protecting your children, but that has to be all of them, not one at the expense and peril of the others.
Just my opinion.
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