| Author |
Message |
Lilfair
Member
07-09-2003
| Monday, September 14, 2015 - 4:18 pm 
The difference between competent parenting and really really bad parenting is that when you find out your son is molesting his sisters you do something right then and there... you do not wait over a year to do something about the molestation happening to your daughters. This little fact speaks volumes to the parenting competency of the duggars. Makes them subject in other aspects like their known hitting of the kids.
Sure you can raise a pervert son and have no responsibility but to protect the perverted son and forego the safety of his sisters and other minors that came into their godly home....well that should be child endangerment. But they have their fans and their apologists.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Monday, September 14, 2015 - 6:00 pm
I don't give a rats butt about their fans and apologists. 
What I care about is fairly assessing situations, regardless of someone's religious beliefs.
If you only knew how many families react with denial or minimize this behavior and don't get help or therapy, well, all I can say is that there is a hell of a lot of really really bad parenting out there. In fact, it is *FAR* more common to try to cover it up than it is to get help. And quite frankly, often the people that want help often can't get it because they can't afford it, or they end up with incompetent help.
That's the real world, not some fantasy world we'd all like to live in. This is not uncommon behavior by parents, regardless of their religious views.
I think too many people who dislike the Duggars jump on every little thing that goes wrong with them as an opportunity to diss their faith beliefs.
But the truth is, almost nothing that has happened to them doesn't happen in other families, that don't share that belief.
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Ophiliasgrandma
Member
09-04-2001
| Tuesday, September 15, 2015 - 5:31 am
So very well said and easy to understand what you are teaching us, Kar. Thank you kindly!
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Lilfair
Member
07-09-2003
| Wednesday, September 16, 2015 - 8:52 am
Considering the Duggars are a public family, their choice...the ridicule they face publically is legitimate. And I don't care about if other families cover up their sons molestation of their sisters. We are only talking about the Duggar family here. They hypocrisy of the Duggar parents by holding themselves out to be raising their family in a godly fashion except when it comes to molestation. This thread is about the Duggars.
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Hskrfan
Member
06-30-2011
| Wednesday, September 16, 2015 - 9:35 am
I agree with Lilfair. The Duggars made tons of money and used their power and influence to deny rights to others. Again, they are free to believe whatever they want. However they are NOT free to say, I don't agree and therefore you (fill in LGBT Group) and NOT allowed the same rights under the Constitution.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Wednesday, September 16, 2015 - 9:56 am
I care about all families where there is molestation, and especially if it is untreated. Those children matter too.
My point is that even though the Duggars are publicly known, this problem exists in all kinds of families. People are blaming their religion, and the fact is this kind of problem happens in people of other faiths, or no faith at all.
I agree that the stance the Duggars have on gay marriage is wrong. But it's a moot point now, because gay marriage is legal in all 50 states, in spite of whatever lobbying they did.
I prefer to be a gracious winner.
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Hskrfan
Member
06-30-2011
| Wednesday, September 16, 2015 - 12:06 pm
First, I also care about ALL children and hope they all get the help they need, so let's get that off the table.
I also care about the children outside of the Duggar family who were harmed emotionally because the Duggars feeling they had the right to tell others how to live their lives while knowing the whole time they were "projecting" their wrongs onto the LGBT community.
I would bet serious money if their dirty laundry didn't get aired they would be encouraging their county clerk to be the next Kim Davis.
Sorry but I prefer to experience a little Schadenfreude.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Wednesday, September 16, 2015 - 12:27 pm
I don't believe I was on the table, and I wasn't responding to your post.
I don't know about any children who listen to the Duggars advocating against gay families; but I do care about all children, no matter who they are.
And I am seriously grateful that our country has finally done the right thing in making gay marriage legal. Finally.
There's a lot of folks out there telling others how they should live their lives on all sides of issues. We apparently only think the ones we agree with have the right to do that.
But everyone does. It's called free speech, and it's protected by the Constitution, whether we like the speech or not.
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Lilfair
Member
07-09-2003
| Wednesday, September 16, 2015 - 12:27 pm
Hakrfan, it's redundant for you to have to say you care about all children. You didn't have to type that for people to realize it...we all care about kids.
I too like a bit of Schadenfreude, especially at the feet of Jim BOb and Michelle ( I allowed my daughters to live under the same roof with the brother that fondles their vaginas and breasts while they sleep) and his perverted child molesting son.
I stand behind my belief that being raised in a rigid religious belief system surrounding sex was too much for Josh's curiosity (horniness) and his outlet was his sisters...maybe his last choice but none the less he decided to go for it. Hopefully his brothers can handle that rigid belief system but evidentially Josh had other ideas.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Wednesday, September 16, 2015 - 12:30 pm
And I stand behind the fact that we simply don't know what compelled Josh Duggar because we don't have a professional assessment of him.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Wednesday, September 16, 2015 - 12:36 pm
The problem with stating that this is only about the Duggars, and that Josh's issue is because of his family's religious views, is that it harms all the other children who have experienced this who have not been raised in that religious environment.
One can use this as simply an opportunity to vent about people you don't like, and you have that right.
Or, as I have tried to do, one can use this as an avenue to talk about this very real problem in all kinds of families, educate people, and perhaps help more people by doing so.
So, no Schadenfreude for me. There are things more important to me.
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Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Wednesday, September 16, 2015 - 1:14 pm
Their religious views are not for me and I wouldn't advocate their type of parenting. However, there is no way to say for certain about it's impact on Josh. I don't think it was good but that's purely speculation on my part.
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Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Wednesday, September 16, 2015 - 1:57 pm
By the way, sorry for everyone who is enjoying their "demise" but if the Duggars are true believers then none of this will crush them at all. They'll be blissfully happy in their belief. That's the good and bad thing about believing in something. People (and not just extremely religious people though I think that religious people are exceptionally good at it) tend to try to explain events and outcomes so that they conform with their preconceived beliefs.
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Muffin
Member
08-29-2007
| Thursday, September 17, 2015 - 7:06 pm
Jimmer, I agree with your last comment.
I do think the difference with the Duggers is that they made a lot of money on tv. And they won't have that same income. People are now questioning Jill and Derrick's ministry, just as I did a few weeks ago. The people that donated to their ministry is questioning if the money went into their pockets or not. They were able to afford 2 round trip tickets for each of them to return to the U.S. for weddings and now they are "taking a break" from the ministry.
If they stopped cramming their religion and beliefs down everyone's throat, then people wouldn't care as much.
Every religion has extreme believers. Hope I'm saying this right. The Chasidic Jews don't even want to acknowledge non-Chasidic Jews and they have huge families, dress differently and very different beliefs. They don't watch tv either, I don't know about the internet. The man is king in their home, the women are like Michelle.
I really believe every religion has their extreme believers but we aren't talking about them here on this forum, it is about the Duggers only. So because of that, it sounds like we are only putting down the Duggars, but it's not only about them. Their problems right now could be in anyone's family, but we don't all know about it. They chose to put their life on tv., so now they are paying the price of their "fame".
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Thursday, September 17, 2015 - 8:04 pm
Jimmer, I think it's not quite accurate to say they will be "blissfully happy." I don't know where you get that.
The deeply religious aren't blissfully happy, they are at peace with their outer circumstances because they have faith and confidence in their beliefs.
Muffin - again, my point is only to say that it is false to blame the Duggar's religious beliefs for the problems Josh exhibited. yes, they may have played a role. But as Jimmer noted, false attributions run rampant according to your world view. The danger of this is that it paints a false picture of what causes teenage sexual inappropriate behavior, and that serves no one well - especially the victims.
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Muffin
Member
08-29-2007
| Thursday, September 17, 2015 - 10:13 pm
My world view???? Wow!
That is the rudest comment that has been made to me in the last 20 years! Thank you.
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Ophiliasgrandma
Member
09-04-2001
| Friday, September 18, 2015 - 6:06 am
Muffin, I understand that Kar said 'your world view' not at you but the 'general you'. Also, she was quoting Jimmer. You know Kar wouldn't knowingly attack anyone of us at any time. She is much too kind. Kar is a very welcome voice of reason in my opinion.
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Dogdoc
Member
09-29-2001
| Friday, September 18, 2015 - 7:54 am
Comparing 'blissfully happy' to 'at peace with their outer circumstances':
As I was attending a praise service one Sunday night at my church, I looked around the room and marveled at two of the people there.
(In my church 'praise service' means there is a guitar player and we sing newer songs like "How Great is Our God.")
The woman running the projector, the wife of the guitar player was wearing her baseball cap.
She had finished the chemotherapy that saved her life but her hair had not grow in much.
One man tapped his foot along to the music. His other foot/leg was a prosthetic. He had to have his leg amputated after there was a problem with the dye injected into a vein in the leg to check for a heart problem.
There they sat singing "How Great is Our God"
Muffin, I have taken offense at things said here that when explained didn't sound as bad as I thought they were meant.
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Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Friday, September 18, 2015 - 8:02 am
Everyone has their own world view. I do, Kar does, OG does, etc. We're all constantly bombarded with thousands of pieces of information. Our world view and life experience is one of the things that allows us to filter that information and function in the world. Otherwise, we'd get up in the morning and stare at our fingers and wiggle our toes like a baby does (okay .... that's an exaggeration but I'm making a point). 
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Jimmer, I think it's not quite accurate to say they will be "blissfully happy." I don't know where you get that.
The deeply religious aren't blissfully happy, they are at peace with their outer circumstances because they have faith and confidence in their beliefs.
I think we mean the same thing, Kar (perhaps you said it better). I see it the way Dogdoc described that Sunday night at her church. It can be a beautiful thing.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Friday, September 18, 2015 - 9:43 am
Muffin- that comment wasn't meant personally to you as others have explained. There was no need to take it that way. I was quoting Jimmer.
Sorry for any misunderstanding. But as OG kindly points out, I would not do something like that.
We all have a "world view', we all have our biases. It's part of the human condition.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Friday, September 18, 2015 - 9:48 am
Dogdoc, yes, in that moment, finding joy. But at other moments, those same people may weep with grief and rail at life's unfairness.
And Jimmer, that's what I mean by they are not "blissfully happy." They may find a way to make peace with their circumstances, but that doesn't mean they don't have times that they are angry, full of grief, hurt, whatever. They don't whitewash all emotions. In general. I'm sure there are some that do, but that's not the norm.
In NV, Roxip and I were talking about the woman in Colorado, whose baby was cut out of her womb. Her faith is nothing at all like the conservative Duggars. She's more a new-age, new thinking spiritual person. And for her tremendous loss, she has found a way to make peace with it while grieving deeply, and honoring that grief.
That's what I think real spirituality is.
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Muffin
Member
08-29-2007
| Friday, September 18, 2015 - 10:03 am
Dogdoc, that was a beautiful story!!! Thank you for telling it.
When I last posted, I was completely insulted, but I woke up this morning with a different mindset.
Karuuna, I don't think you thought that I would be insulted by it, but I was a the moment. I now take it with a grain of salt.
Most of us here are not psychologists, but we do and are entitled to have our own opinions. I don't live my life by psychology books, psychology assessments, studies and general studies.
I started to go to a psychologist 8 years ago for a very major issue in my life. He never quoted statistics to me, he never made me feel that my thoughts and opinions were wrong. He made me feel sane and normal and showed me, with compassion, different ways of seeing things. I quite literally owe my life to this man, who is now dying from a brain tumor. I started going 4x a week, and it lessened as I got better and last year it was once a month to just talk.
I have never been sexually molested and I do not know personally anyone who was or have children or relatives that were. However, I would definitely show compassion and would never let them feel that how they are feeling NOW about it is wrong. There were some posters here who openly shared the fact that they were sexually molested. And also said how they are still feeling about it. Their feelings were put down, because they didn't fall into the "general" studies that were done. If you notice, they are no longer posting here anymore.
Studies can be wrong too, depending on who the subjects are!
That is my opinion. I might have fallen victim too a study for my issue and be told my feelings were wrong. Thankfully, studies about my issue were never mentioned to me over the years that I saw my psychologist. Every person is unique, every person has their own problems, even if they fall into a common problem that others have experienced!
That is how I look at life. My friends and family will seek my thoughts on things because I don't judge them, I will give my thoughts and opinions and I don't tell them that I am right and they are wrong. It is a discussion, and sometimes they look at things in a way they didn't look at it before. I am a very empathetic person. I am a sounding board for someone who just wants to talk,
My son, who is 45, often calls me with a problem, talks it out with me and then thanks me because after all HIS talking he now figures out how to solve it on his own.
People are individuals, and sometimes I think studies should be cast aside and just treat the person.
What I am trying to say is, if we are not allowed to have an opinion that differs from a "study", then that does not make our opinion wrong. Otherwise, close down this thread.
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Dogdoc
Member
09-29-2001
| Friday, September 18, 2015 - 10:03 am
Karuuna, my point was that those two people made peace with their situations enough to still praise God.
They weren't joyful.
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Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Friday, September 18, 2015 - 10:26 am
I think that joyful is a relative term. I would think that they were significantly more joyful having made peace with their situations and praising God than they would have been otherwise. Some religious or spiritual people can find joy in the most tragic of situations. Of course, that certainly doesn't mean that they wouldn't rather not be in those situations.
I met a young man the other day who I found quite amazing. He seemed to be able to find God's word displayed everywhere and he was very joyful.
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Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Friday, September 18, 2015 - 10:31 am
Muffin, it's a discussion board. People may disagree with you and use whatever means they find valid to support their beliefs whether it's years of personal experience, wisdom, scientific studies, etc. You are clearly allowed to have your opinion and they are equally clearly allowed to have their opinion.
Normally, my above comments would be considered off-topic and probably would be removed (speaking as a Moderator) but it does relate to the Duggars. Are we willing to accept their opinion of how their family life should be handled?
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