| Author |
Message |
Ophiliasgrandma
Member
09-04-2001
| Tuesday, August 25, 2015 - 5:41 am 
I don't believe Anna's family and Josh's family went to the same church…maybe just the same denomination. I think they actually lived some distance apart. However, the memory does play tricks sometimes.
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Rupertbear2
Member
07-15-2015
| Tuesday, August 25, 2015 - 6:00 am
Thanks for the link, Naja. For the Duggar supporters to equate lying to what Josh has done...yikes!
O.T. again for a sec, Kar. I've read Dr. Derek Amen's book: Change Your Brain, Change your Life and found it absolutely fascinating.
I can see there is no way of knowing if the way they raised their son is the sole reason he is the way he is.
These people will not cave in their beliefs no matter what happens, that is a given, unfortunately.
I am wondering, (half-facetiously), if there is an area of the brain which encourages this type of religious fanaticism, despite common sense.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Tuesday, August 25, 2015 - 9:19 am
Teens Being told ones normal sexual feelings need to be suppressed never ends well
You simply can't say *never*. Sometimes it does end well. Sometimes it doesn't. Kids with the most awful parenting sometimes turn out as exceptional individuals. Kids with great parenting sometimes turn out to be criminals. Taking one factor in isolation, as I've said, is rarely an adequate explanation for any behavior. That's why the best experts today use integrated theories of behavior analysis, not any single view.
Is it better to have more enlightened parenting? Of course. But in any *individual* case, we don't know what difference it makes unless we do an evaluation.
Rupert, there are certainly studies out there that the more fearful someone's personality (talking here about genetics and biology) is, the more likely they are to cling to dogmatic beliefs.
But again, it is a mix between biology and environment and experience, and brain development.
It's why very liberal parents can be surprised by a child who becomes very conservative or vice versa. In spite of parenting, sometimes biology wins.
I would also note again, that sometimes authoritarianism is just what someone needs. As I've said before, the absolutely most successful anti-recidivism programs are run by the most conservative churches. Disorganized, chaotic brains need order imposed on them, until they can impose it on themselves.
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Lilfair
Member
07-09-2003
| Tuesday, August 25, 2015 - 1:17 pm
Teens Being told ones normal sexual feelings need to be suppressed never ends well ...at least in Josh's case it didn't end well.
I find it hard not to believe that in "most" instances suppressing any natural human feelings doesn't end well.
Josh is just the perfect example. His sisters are another good example....they don't even realize the perversion brought on them....excusing it by curiosity and being ok because god forgives.
Just sick sick mindset brought onto them by those side hugging first kiss at the alter parents of theirs.
I'd be curious what would have happened to Josh if he were allowed to be a normal teenager in regards to sexuality. Would he have still sat his 5 year sister on his lap and while reading her a book fondled her vagina? Of course we will never know but I'd bet he would have settled his "curiosity" in a more non incest way.
Sure there are exceptions to rules but giving Josh's skewed biblical upbringing a pass doesn't help anyone. Sexuality should not be taboo and Josh is the poster child for that.
We have no idea what other perversions are in store for that family. Or what other perversions hasn't been brought forth. Nothing would surprise me.
When sexuality is taboo we get Josh Duggar and sisters that don't realize when they have been violated.
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Roxip
Member
01-29-2004
| Tuesday, August 25, 2015 - 1:39 pm
So you don't believe that teenagers should be taught to control their sexual feelings and that they should act on it without any constraints? That doesn't make sense to me.
What constitutes a "normal teenager in regards to sexuality"? Should he have taken a neighbor girl and gone behind the woodshed and gotten it on?
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Tuesday, August 25, 2015 - 1:49 pm
Well, again, we are all imperfect parents. We all make mistakes.
Never say never is my motto. As I noted, my parents never said a word to me about my sexuality and refused to speak about it, in other words "shamed" me, and I turned out just fine.
And frankly in "most" cases, it IS just curiousity. You apparently aren't aware of how often it happens. And again, in most cases, the kids turn out okay.
We all have some bad parenting. We all get some bad messages. We eventually turn out reasonably okay although far from perfect.
37 million people on Ashley Madison are the proof of that.
Finally, yet again, I have to say that we don't know precisely what role the family's religious views played in his behavior. Was it helpful? Probably not. But we also don't know if it would have made one damn bit of difference if he had been raised by perfect parents. Because we know that kids raised by very good parents, also act inappropriately at times. And sometimes for their entire lives!
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Roxip
Member
01-29-2004
| Tuesday, August 25, 2015 - 1:55 pm
I think stereotyping that a person's religious views will cause them to become perverts is patently unfair...does this mean all 19 of the Duggars' children will eventually act inappropriately and become cheaters?
I have known many young people who are taught abstinence and have carried out their vow until their marriage. It is considered the highest honor in certain religious circles when a couple has waited (although most of them are not as extreme as the Duggars on things like kissing for example) for sex until after marriage and can exchange the purity jewelry they have worn.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Tuesday, August 25, 2015 - 1:59 pm
Roxip, exactly my point. If it were the religious views alone, everyone in the family would be acting inappropriately as children, or having illicit affairs.
I will say however, that abstinence programs deserve the same scrutiny. The overall data shows that they don't work very well, although again, individual success varies greatly.
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Ophiliasgrandma
Member
09-04-2001
| Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 10:24 am
Josh has checked into a long term rehab facility. Sounds like a step in the right direction.
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Tmagicsaq
Member
03-26-2004
| Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 10:29 am
I think that we are all looking for reasons why.. the way he was raised, the church he belongs to, the number of kids in the family.
We may never know the real reason why he has done the things that he has done. I for one, do not agree with his or his families views however they have 19 kids.. One.. One .. has done some awful things. We don't know of any of the other kids doing or being this way, doesn't mean they will or won't be. My point is (at least my view and how I see it) I can’t assume the way he was raised is why he has done what he has done. I know a family who have 7 kids. One kid got in trouble with the law. They rest have never. How can I say, well it was the way he was raised?
We are all different, all our brains work different. If my brother is a killer (he is not) does that mean my mom and dad sucked at being parents? that my sister and I better be locked up now cause we all know it’s coming?
Do I judge Josh.. yes, yes I do. I Judge him preaching about how marriage is supposed to be when he himself is taking part in such things. I don’t like their views and I would rather eat rocks then birth that many children but I am not going to say it is wrong or that Josh is the way he is because of how he has been raised. I also can't really say it is not why... so I look to his many siblings. Sure things could have happened that we don’t know about.. but with all the heat on this family, I am sure we would have heard something by now. His siblings deserve to grow up without this over their heads, without them paying for HIS mistakes.
Josh put his family in a tough spot, but he is an adult.. his wrongs should not be placed on the rest. Let them make their own wrongs or not any at all.
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Ophiliasgrandma
Member
09-04-2001
| Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 10:39 am
Well said, Tmagicsaq!
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 10:47 am
Tmagic, I agree with OG, very well said.
OG - I don't suppose they gave the name of the treatment facility? I'm always a little suspicious of these, but there are some very good and highly reputable treatment centers for sex addiction. And yes, that is a real thing (sex addiction). 
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Ophiliasgrandma
Member
09-04-2001
| Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 11:01 am
I don't recall seeing the name. It was on People Magazine site. No doubt whatever place he goes to someone will pick it to pieces.
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Lilfair
Member
07-09-2003
| Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 11:21 am
If his parents got him proper help when he was on his molestation spree maybe they could have spared Anna and the kids this mayhem. It seems like the cheating in the marriage is taken more seriously than the foundling of his sisters vaginas and breasts....go figure. Lol
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Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 11:23 am
You know, the sad thing is that what Josh did with respect to looking at porn, Ashley Madison and cheating isn't abnormal (37 million for Ashley Madison) and doesn't require rehab. If it did, there would be an awful lot of Americans (and Canadians) in rehab. 
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Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 11:29 am
According to a People mag article:
A source close to Anna added "there was always something a bit odd about Josh."
Now there's a reliable scientific analysis if I ever heard one. 
http://www.people.com/article/josh-duggar-checks-into-rehab-ashley-madison-scandal
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Muffin
Member
08-29-2007
| Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 11:30 am
I have been reading People magazine as well. I'm happy to see that Josh has checked into a rehab, I only hope that this rehab is NOT the same as the last rehab. He needs more than building homes, and more therapy than praying and repenting.
Unfortunately, I am not holding my breath that he checked into a bonafide sex rehab program. There are sex addictions, just like other addictions, and they need to be addressed and they require more than just prayer and repenting to be fixed.
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Lilfair
Member
07-09-2003
| Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 11:31 am
Exactly Jimmers.
After rehab they are hoping for more TV time. $$$$$$. This family loves the lime light and paycheck TV offers.
If there was any sort of crime against society or deviant behavior it isn't AM or looking at porn its molesting 5 children over and over again.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 11:41 am
Yes, I wish his parents had gotten him more effective help. But we had a long discussion on this earlier, and as I noted then, it's a VERY scary thing to put your child in the system. Because in many many cases, the system sucks and does more damage.
And because all mental health providers are required reporters, there is no way to get help for your child WITHOUT them ending up with a social services report and case file, and possible intervention by FPS.
It's a Catch22 really.
And yes, with over 37 million people on Ashley Madison looking for discreet, secret affairs, it's clear this current issue has NOTHING to do with their religion.
The fact that he has willingly gone into treatment, provided its sincere, is a good sign. He didn't break any laws.
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Muffin
Member
08-29-2007
| Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 11:50 am
Lil, I agree with you. I'm hoping that what he did when he was 14-15 is addressed as well. That is what I don't think he received proper rehab for. He is as curious today as he was then. But, now that he is older, he has the freedom to go on the Internet and seek out other women to satisfy that curiosity.
He is not the first married man to cheat on his wife and he certainly won't be the last.
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Lilfair
Member
07-09-2003
| Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 12:26 pm
"The fact that he has willingly gone into treatment, provided its sincere, is a good sign. He didn't break any laws."
Willingly, are you sure of that? I bet he was more bullied by his parents to go into rehab. In the hopes that they can make more TV. Willingly, highly unlikely.
"it's a VERY scary thing to put your child in the system" scarier than having your girls live with a sexual predator?
I don't see this rehab being anything more than rehabbing for future TV gigs.
I don't trust anything that Jim Bob or Michelle says on this matter. They had their chance to make things right with their daughters and get Josh help but they choose to attempt to sweep it under the rug until that statute of limitations were done.
No surprises that Josh is into porn and cheating on his wife. Duh!
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 12:43 pm
By willingly, I mean not by court order. And no, as an adult, your parents can't *force* you to do anything. So, yes, it is willing, regardless of what pressures his parents might have put on him, or his wife for that matter. It's still his choice, so yes, it was willingly.
And yes, putting your child in the system is quite scary. You have no control, and many of our social workers are overworked, undereducated, underpaid and incompetent. I know because I've worked with them.
As for whether Josh was a sexual predator at that age, that's your opinion, it's not a clinical diagnosis. So your choice is a false choice.
As I said, it's a catch 22 for parents. You want the help, but to get it you must relinquish control of not only that child, but quite possibly ALL of your children. And if your children are taken away, and put into foster care, even temporarily, the harm done is often lifelong.
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Muffin
Member
08-29-2007
| Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 1:39 pm
Karuuna, I can agree with all the fears you just stated about losing your children, etc. what I disagree with is that because Josh DID molest his 4 sisters and one other over a 2 year period, including having a sister sitting on his lap reading her a story and fondling her, I don't need a clinical diagnosis to tell me that it's NOT a problem. For my way of thinking, I consider that a big problem. But that could be just me. And now he has 2 daughters of his own. Josh needs help, real professional help.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 1:50 pm
Muffin, I didn't say it wasn't a problem. I said he did not have a clinical diagnosis, so I would not personally call him a "sexual predator."
And specifically not at that age. I have many times said it was inappropriate conduct and needed to be addressed. I'm just saying it's very hard to address it, with the horrible system we have for these things. I know several clinicians who have let go of their licenses, specifically so they could help without reporting.
And in his adulthood, while I don't approve of his behavior, it's not against the law. It was consensual.
That he has chosen to get treatment, provided it is good quality treatment, is a good thing. IMO.
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Lilfair
Member
07-09-2003
| Wednesday, August 26, 2015 - 2:04 pm
Josh most likely was told by his parents to seek treatment for watching porn and being an adulterer. Don't kid yourself parents have influence on adult kids everyday.
Yup 100% my opinion that Josh as a teenage was a sexual predator. Luring his 5 year old sister to sit on his lap so he can read her a book and then proceeds to fondle that 5 year old vagina is in my books, at least a sexual predator, of the worst kind, preying on young children in a sexual manner.
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