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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Saturday, June 06, 2015 - 12:19 pm 
5% is a lot of families (in the millions), and that is at best an estimate, because a) it's not well studied; b) it's rarely reported.
I don't like the word "molest" or "abuse" here. There was no coercion, no force, no penetration, no manipulation. The only thing that puts it in the loosely-defined abuse category in the clinical literature is the age difference. So, on a four point scale, it's a 1 out of 4.
And curious is curious. Yes, at his age, hormones likely played a role. I would not use the word "horny", it's offensive. Those feelings are NORMAL in 14 and 15 year old boys, and we shouldn't demonize them. It's only the way he acted on it that was inappropriate and needed to be dealt with.
I think if folks were honest, we'd be surprised at how often this happens.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Saturday, June 06, 2015 - 12:21 pm
The parents would have done the best they could if they had the molester leave the house the first or maybe even the second time he confessed. I definitely don't think they did the best any parent could have.
I think any parent would be shocked to find this in their family, and may not have textbook perfect reactions. And that's what I saw when I practiced. It's similar to the stages of grief, it takes them some time to figure out how to deal with it, and that first stage of denial is a tough one to get past. It takes time. I'm not going to judge them for loving ALL their children, and making some mistakes. Doing the best they can, means doing the best they can at the time and then learning and growing and doing better. That goes for all of us.
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Lilfair
Member
07-09-2003
| Saturday, June 06, 2015 - 12:36 pm
I guess I'm just different than you K. You are able to justify bad and harmful actions by the parents. I can never justify or any parent who allows a confessed molester to stay in the house. Not after the first confession or the second. I can never justify that. I don't really care about this loving all their children business....the sexual safety trumps the love you feel for the molester. And comparing or justifying that other parents have the same response doesn't make sense. It's wrong no matter how many other families do the same.
I just don't get it and I'm a "severely" ( in my best Romney voice) compassionate person.
Sex crimes are not just a crime against the sisters,in this case, but against the entire society.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Saturday, June 06, 2015 - 12:52 pm
You are able to justify bad and harmful actions by the parents.
You seem to have misunderstood, so let me clarify please. I justified NOTHING. I said they did not do the right thing immediately, it took them some time to get there.
Understanding is NOT justifying, as if I said it was okay. It was not ideal.
However, I don't expect everyone to have the perfect response to every situation. We are human, and fallible. What matters is whether we keep making the same mistake, or if we learn and move on and do better.
As someone who has done therapeutic intervention in similar circumstances, and even having dealt with it directly in my DS's circle of friends around that age, I think there is a lot of horribilizing going on. And that is damaging to the entire society.
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Lilfair
Member
07-09-2003
| Saturday, June 06, 2015 - 1:27 pm
K, got it. You understand the path the parents took regarding the molestation happening in their home. Because people do not always get it right the first or second time around.
I get that. I guess I'm coming from a different angle. Since they didn't get it right the first or second time and since they are a public family that talks a lot about morality and the lack there of in society...I'm not mad that the family is being scrutinized. maybe with all the finger pointing and disgust being thrown their way, maybe they will be a bit more careful with who they call immoral or not worthy of being parents. Although I highly doubt it.
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Dogdoc
Member
09-29-2001
| Saturday, June 06, 2015 - 1:28 pm
I worry about the girls.
A great uncle of mine would visit maybe twice a year with his wife.
At first I did not realize he was molesting me. If we were alone he would reach up between my legs.
I was always wearing clothes, usually shorts.
I finally realized what he was doing was wrong. I never told anybody what had happened but I started avoiding him.
One time I was in the basement and I opened the door to the garage. I jumped because he was right there. He was probably waiting for me.
When he reached for me I said "Stop that". He backed off and never bother me again.
What is still with me is what happened about 10 years later.
We heard that he was dying of pancreatic cancer and was in a lot of pain. I was glad!
I realized that the episodes of abuse were still with me emotionally.
I can still vividly recall seeing him on the other side of the basement door. I can feel the fear I felt.
I still have no sympathy for him for the way he died.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Saturday, June 06, 2015 - 2:03 pm
Lilfair, it is one thing to point out the hypocrisy of the family judging others harshly, while saying they should not be judged. I get that.
However, as a long time advocate for children, the public discussion of this, in the way it has happened, and the release of the police report, is damaging to the cause of protecting children.
What children will come forward if they think their parents will turn them in? What child will come forward if they think the police are coming? What child will come forward if not only do the police come in, but the information is released to the public? That is absolutely horrifying to kids.
You want to scrutinize the parents and (now) adults for their views on gays or whatever, I'm okay with that.
But for what the kids did/experienced as kids? That's not appropriate. They need to be left alone.
The parents may have acted imperfectly, but they acted. The problem was fixed over 10 years ago, and there is no evidence that there has been a recurrence or longlasting damage. It should be done, it should have never come out to the public.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Saturday, June 06, 2015 - 2:04 pm
Dogdoc, I'm sorry you went through that, and you were a very courageous girl!
I worry about the girls being betrayed by the police dept and society at large for making something they wished to keep private, public.
That is very damaging to them, maybe even more damaging than the original experiences.
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Muffin
Member
08-29-2007
| Saturday, June 06, 2015 - 2:13 pm
Many times I have read here that "we just don't know", in reference to how the Duggars went about the counselling of Josh or his victims, etc.
With that being said, we only know what Josh TOLD his parents what he did. He said he only touched them for a few seconds above their clothing and twice underneath their clothing.
Therefore, "we don't know" if he touched them longer, if he penetrated them with a finger, if he touched them multiple times, etc.
We also "don't know" if there are more victims out there.
What I do know, is that their interviews aren't sounding good. I read that the Duggar girls said that this happens in 2/3 of families. My math says that 2/3 is 66%, which is a lot more than 5%. Were the Duggar girls given that number, so it would make it sound that this is a common occurrence in families? We don't know.
I might be naive, but I think they handled it all wrong. And, they did only go to the police after the statue of limitations had passed.
I don't like their beliefs, I don't like anything about them. I will now keep my own opinions to myself
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Saturday, June 06, 2015 - 2:29 pm
Pretty sure if it had been more than touching, the girls would have woken up, or known that it was more.
At any rate, again from a therapeutic point of view, what matters is how they all recovered, not the exact specifics of what happened. Most therapists work with people's memories of what happened anyway, which science shows are not perfect video renditions of what actually happened. And that doesnt' matter either - what matters is how did they feel, and how do they feel now and how do we fix what needs to be fixed. We don't have to have perfect knowledge of what happened, and thank goodness, because we rarely do!
I don't know where they got that figure. As I said the 5% is a "best guess", from what I've read. And as I have also said, a lot of it goes unreported, either the kids don't tell or their parents don't. Perhaps the 66% number includes same age (or similar age) interaction which doesn't meet one of the four criteria for "abuse." I don't know.
I would just say that it is not uncommon. And again, it should not be demonized. That doesn't mean it should be permitted, it means it should be treated responsibly. What I do know, is that once addressed, 95% of teens in this situation DO NOT offend again. That's why it shouldn't be demonized, and they don't belong on the sex registry, unless the behavior is so heinous that there is clearly some organic problem.
As for the police, from their accounts, and verified by the state trooper (who was later convicted), they did report to him in 2003. He does not say that they asked him to sweep it under the rug, but he (a noted child pornographer) said they told him it only happened once.
I don't know how to decide who to believe under the circumstances, but both sides did say there was disclosure. And the trooper admits, he did not report it further.
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Onlyhuman
Member
08-04-2001
| Saturday, June 06, 2015 - 4:00 pm
However, as a long time advocate for children, the public discussion of this, in the way it has happened, and the release of the police report, is damaging to the cause of protecting children.
What children will come forward if they think their parents will turn them in? What child will come forward if they think the police are coming? What child will come forward if not only do the police come in, but the information is released to the public? That is absolutely horrifying to kids.
I don't quite agree with this. The reality is, that any child who is abusing another child (and let's be clear, that's what we are talking about in this situation!) is almost always going to end up with an official case file. I know of no parents who are competent to handle this type of behavior on their own. As this example demonstrates, without intervention, the behavior, for the most part, won't stop. And, at least in my state, any resources that the parent seeks out for help are going to be mandated reporters. Psychologists, teachers, clergy...all mandated reporters. If anything, this story is a model for how the failure to report after the first incident resulted in more victims.
What this nation COULD learn from all of this is that they are NOT alone. That there are resources for parents and children. There are resources for abusers and victims. And, if you follow protocol, more than likely the privacy of minors IS protected.
If Michelle and Jim seek help after the first incident, or even the second, Josh gets treatment, as a minor, with whatever is their state's version of child protective services. There are fewer children as victims. All of the reports remain under the jurisdiction of child welfare, which means no FOIA. (Notice how those records were NOT released). It's the fact that protocols weren't followed until AFTER Josh became an adult (and outside of the statute of limitations) that put his juvenile behaviors under the adult behavior microscope.
It's not the system to protect kids, their treatment, and their identities that was the weak link. It was the fact that Josh was too old to be put into that system by the time his behavior was fully brought to the proper authorities. That's on those that failed to do their duty to report.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Saturday, June 06, 2015 - 6:00 pm
Onlyhuman - I think you probably have not read all my posts in this thread.
In fact, given my experience in this field, in my town (which is conservative), my experiences with mandated reporting and the "system" have been at best 50-50. Most either minimize or over react, and both do damage.
I've had a teenage girl returned to an abusive stepdad, (she later committed suicide) and a boy that was 'exploring' with boys his own age, yanked out of the home and sent away.
So, please don't tell me that reporting is the answer. It may be different in your community, but frankly I would never ever ever glibly say that the system is the right place for these things. It's often the worst offender. And in fact, that is the very reason I gave up my license, so I was no longer a mandated reporter.
And the Duggars did report after the 3rd incident. Nothing happened. Whether by agreement with the officer, or whether the officer minimized (or they did) and didn't care. Nothing happened.
So, yeah, the system is the weak link. As one therapist said in an interview today - it may or may not have been legal to release those records. However, it was immoral to release those records.
And many experts are still saying that it wasn't legal to release them either. That regardless of what age he was when he was investigated and whether there were charges or not, the records should have been held in confidence for the sake of the victims. That's the intent of the law. And that's why the judge in Springfield ordered them destroyed (too late unfortunately).
I wholeheartedly agree.
If you think that most children who are engaging in this behavior end up with case files, I think you are incorrect. Most parents don't want their kids in the system and will do everything they can to handle it themselves to avoid it. And I can't blame them. They may be clumsy in handling it, but the alternative (at least around here) is too unpredictable to be trusted. Clumsy parental help is far better than giving control to people in a system that often doesn't work and often causes more harm. I wouldn't trust my child to it.
What's the correct answer? I don't know. I don't think we have one that fits every situation.
Sometimes, when the abuse is severe (and I don't think this was), you have no choice but to report. But in most cases, it doesn't happen, and even without reporting most cases of inappropriate touching are transitory. If that's the level, I wouldn't report frankly, I would deal with it on my own.
If there is coercion, force, penetration, manipulation - things that indicate a serious issue, then I might have a different reaction.
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Seamonkey
Moderator
09-07-2000
| Saturday, June 06, 2015 - 7:36 pm
{{{Dogdoc}}} that was great that you hit that NO and made it stick!! And it isn't at all uncommon to still feel those feelings years later.
A key time for many girls and boys who are molested is when, if they have children, especially of the same sex, when that child reaches the same age they were when molested. Issues can come up. In fact many therapists will be aware of that and be there if it does come up so it can be worked through and not affect the relationship with their child/ren. of course some of us didn't get to the stage of having children.
A good thing later if they are feeling to blame as adults, if they can look at a child and think or be asked would you blame THAT child. Usually they would not and in time can feel truly that they were also children and not at fault. It helps to work with pictures of the former victim as a child. I had the complication of dissociating to the extent that the "me" who would look at a picture, didn't claim to have been that innocent child.. so it took more time.
I hope the girls can get away from only feeling the anger at having the records released (anger which is justified) and feel that even though the world knows, maybe they have helped some girls who will see them as strong.
That interviewer really got revved up after the part with the two Duggar girls! She was just ragging on other media, even though clearly her show was part of that media and happy enough to get ratings from the Duggars. I just deleted the rest of that recording. And that is undoubtedly the first and last time I've watched this family. Cannot completely shut them out since they are promoted so heavily but I can FF on the DVR or close an online page or flip the page of a magazine or simply not buy it..
Kids can and do "sleep" through some pretty
severe abuse, or they "forget" or remember floating to the ceiling and waitching as if it happened to someone else. We really don't know.
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Aurora
Member
11-24-2006
| Saturday, June 06, 2015 - 7:46 pm
In the interview with the two girls Friday night Jessa said that after Josh had confessed they had gone to licensed counseling. If that is true, isn't the counselor a mandated reporter? And if, as they said, their mother encouraged them to tell the human services people everything, what's to tell if they didn't even know anything had happened? It's all a bunch of lies, IMO.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Saturday, June 06, 2015 - 7:53 pm
Kids can and do "sleep" through some pretty
severe abuse, or they "forget" or remember floating to the ceiling and waitching as if it happened to someone else. We really don't know.
yes, dissociation does happen, but not usually unless the abuse is ongoing and/or severe. From the current reports, that does not seem to be the case here.
I've never known a report of someone sleeping who had physical penetration and remain asleep unless they were drugged.
And if, as they said, their mother encouraged them to tell the human services people everything, what's to tell if they didn't even know anything had happened?
Some of it was while they were awake, and you also tell the counselor what your parents have told you happened.
A licensed counselor is a mandated reporter, in all states that I know of, however, for the reasons I've mentioned, sadly, some of them risk their license and don't report.
Or warn you ahead of time and say these are the things that if you tell them to me, I will have to report. So you can tell your story with just enough information so they can skirt the rules.
It's quite common here, although most don't want to admit it, for obvious reasons.
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Sandra
Member
07-05-2004
| Sunday, June 07, 2015 - 7:23 am
'Very mild' molestation: Duggar sisters defend brother
CNN.com
Is there such a thing?
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Seamonkey
Moderator
09-07-2000
| Sunday, June 07, 2015 - 7:50 am
Not in my opinion.
Aftereffects can vary widely and it is best not to minimize for those who ARE seriously affected.
That is a mild dissociation but I've certainly heard it described many many times.
Yes, my abuse was different, not family, secret to protect them from it not to protect them from others knowing and my dissociation was more clear cut, but the floating to the ceiling thing I've heard from many and denial for years also. Just saying we don't KNOW that what they are reporting is all that happened and they don't know either since they had to be told it happened and what it was.
But touching under clothing isn't a good thing anyway, penetration or not. Especially in a family that seems obsessed with purity (and then seemingly obsessed with procreation after marriage). Has to be confusing, then throw in inappropriate touching..
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Sandra
Member
07-05-2004
| Sunday, June 07, 2015 - 9:51 am
I agree Seamonkey. There was nothing mild about mine. Those two words really should never be used together.
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Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Sunday, June 07, 2015 - 9:57 am
I understand how you find calling it mild is offensive but it's a disservice to victims/survivors to consider all crimes and abuse as equal. They just aren't.
The victims have decided that it was "mild". How is it helpful to insist it wasn't or try to convince them otherwise?
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Keldogg
Member
08-12-2005
| Sunday, June 07, 2015 - 10:56 am
Two victims have stated it was "mild". There are other victims who have not spoken and may never want to speak.
Women are victims of abuse all the time. Husbands and boyfriends beat them. But the women are either afraid or too much in love, and will deny or downplay what was done to them. Does that make what happened to them insignificant? No...it just makes it unprosecutable.
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Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Sunday, June 07, 2015 - 11:05 am
No one is saying it was insignificant.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Sunday, June 07, 2015 - 11:40 am
'Very mild' molestation: Duggar sisters defend brother
CNN.com
Is there such a thing?
Yes. Can we really not see a difference between less than dozen incidences of fondling, most of which happened with clothes on, and forcible or coerced rape or oral sex? Really?
And no one has said it was insignificant. How serious it was is up to the victims. Kids are different, some are more resilient than others. As for the offender, nothing is ever insignificant. As I have said multiple times, it must be dealt with. Absolutely. However, it must be dealt with in alignment with the type of offense, the motivation, a full review of the offender's mental state.
There is no comparison here to kids who have had help and treatment to women who have not. Apples/oranges, because no one has said that they young man didn't need a therapeutic intervention!
And you are wrong about domestic abuse not being prosecutable if the woman won't testify. In most states, police can still file charges without that testimony if the evidence is reasonable that it was domestic violence. It was done to protect women (and men) in that situation.
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Texannie
Member
07-15-2001
| Sunday, June 07, 2015 - 1:51 pm
Why is it so wrong that these women choose not to see themselves as victims?
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Sueby
Member
11-18-2004
| Sunday, June 07, 2015 - 4:02 pm
I wonder if the children have trust accounts specified by the Jackie Coogan law in California. Or if this law even applies to Reality TV? Or if it applies in the state they live in?
I hope there is money for each and every one of these kids. After all this I am sure some of them are questioning things in their minds.
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Ophiliasgrandma
Member
09-04-2001
| Sunday, June 07, 2015 - 4:26 pm
Sueby, it you are interested I'm sure it wouldn't be too hard to find on the internet.
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