| Author |
Message |
Dillybean
Member
08-14-2010
| Thursday, June 04, 2015 - 6:24 pm 
The media didn't release the names....they just said family members and a babysitter. The Duggars themselves decided to let the public know the exact names of two of the girls. We would all still be guessing and speculating which ones were involved. I have a hunch who the other 2 are, but that's not fair to throw names out there unless they want to come forward.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Thursday, June 04, 2015 - 6:27 pm
It doesn't matter if the media didn't release the specific names. It can be figured out. And it's quite clear they are family members.
So, by not releasing the names, it hurts the victims and all the 'possible' victims in the family.
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Keldogg
Member
08-12-2005
| Thursday, June 04, 2015 - 6:46 pm
So we want the police to decide what can be released and what cant? If a report might cast a bad light on a friend of ours, or embarrass a politician or his family, just because we can do it , we can decide we shouldn't do it?
According to the police, they informed the D uggars that this FOI had been filed. That wasn't even required by law, but they did it. But they had no grounds to deny it and if they had, the furor would have been even greater because the media would report that the cops were refusing to release legal information regarding the family.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Thursday, June 04, 2015 - 6:48 pm
Actually a judge ordered the Springfield report destroyed, on behalf of one of the victims who was still a minor.
That alone shows the law is screwed up.
I didn't say the police should decide, so don't put words in my mouth.
I just think the obsession with finding out exactly what happened, and all the media coverage and all of that should not happen. It's unseemly and prurient.
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Lilfair
Member
07-09-2003
| Thursday, June 04, 2015 - 7:49 pm
This entire media hoopla would not be as massive if the duggars didn't rub so many people the wrong way. If they weren't politically active under the guise of their God then people wouldn't be so invested in seeing this family go through the scrutiny they seem to be experiencing.
All of a sudden this family who consistently used their religious beliefs to demonize others are now getting a taste of their same demonizing.
Should this family have privacy...IMO No since they made themselves public figures.
All the red tape issues sorta fall to the side as minutia.
Yes the girls that were molested probably should have privacy but again their parents took them public. Which came with perks for them...they were granted a public microphone...like allowing Jessa saying that the Jewish Hollocaust is the same as legal abortion. Basically calling woman that choose to abort gas chamber attendants.
And all the other hate speech ( veiled in religious love the sinner....) they were able to spew to millions.
This should be a lesson to all future reality families.
Don't let your teenage son tell you three times that he's molesting girls that live in the house before you have him go work a construction site.....despicable parenting.
I'm not really heartless but I see this family as a cancer to society.
Taking cover now.
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Keldogg
Member
08-12-2005
| Thursday, June 04, 2015 - 7:54 pm
I wasn't trying to put words into your mouth. Thats what I tpol it to mean when you said that just because you can doesnt mean you should, and that you blame the people following the law.
I dont need to know all the details. I dont think the D uggars needed to do that interview and tell "us" anything. However they chose to do it, and I found it to be full of excuses and blaming of others, which is what I found offensive.
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Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Thursday, June 04, 2015 - 8:34 pm
Who else could decide not to enforce laws other than the people enforcing the law?
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Seamonkey
Moderator
09-07-2000
| Thursday, June 04, 2015 - 9:04 pm
I agree it was not a good decision to do the interview, even though it was pretty softball.. but it was their choice.
Since two of the daughters have spoken out and will be on an interview to be aired, they, at least wanted to speak.. but seems like with the same goal, to protect Josh. And of course that is their choice.
And sure, maybe they are completely over it.. I've known/talked to countless survivors, male and female, of all levels of abuse and most often they may not really deal with it until their 40s or 50s. So this may not be a done deal for all six of the young women. Protecting an abuser isn't uncommon. And out of five victims, statistically all are not going to be in the group who "sails through". (and for how long do some sail through.. hard to say unless you can follow them for decades.
And I still feel that secrecy is more on the side of the abusers than in service of the victims/survivors. I don't think you get to survivor status in life with the abuse hidden away. Cannot be "redacted" from your experience. And it shouldn't be a shameful thing, to be hidden, since the victims are not at fault.
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Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Thursday, June 04, 2015 - 9:17 pm
It shouldn't be shameful but it certainly may be painful. I'm not sure that having the world know all about it would be very helpful. Imagine going out somewhere and having people stare at you (even if they are doing it in a sympathetic manner). Not what most people would want.
Anyway (as Kar has been saying), it's important to let the victim/survivor handle this in the manner that they want to handle it. Revealing it all to the public takes that power away from them.
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Brenda1966
Member
07-02-2002
| Thursday, June 04, 2015 - 9:38 pm
I'm on board with what you're saying Lilfair. I think having them on TV as some charming, harmless cute family is deceptive and damaging. They are not to be admired for their ignorance and blind faith IMO. And by involving themselves in politics and trying to publicly shape policy, they have opened themselves up to scrutiny.
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Tmagicsaq
Member
03-26-2004
| Friday, June 05, 2015 - 9:45 am
What I find tragic is the victims.. they have clearly stated that they forgive him. Now we have people further victimizing these ADULTs by saying they can’t possibly forgive.. they are being told to forgive.. they are stuck.. they have no will of their own.
I ask.. who is victimizing these women now? I think maybe Jim and Michelle kept trying to steer the convo off the victims because they are adults and have a right to let people know how they feel if they want to.
I think the people that are saying these adult women don’t know how they feel or are forced to say this stuff are just as bad as how they think the parents are.
I in no way agree with the Duggars views. I do however think people NEED to stop telling these girls what they should feel and stop and listen to them. All the public is doing is victimizing them further.
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Ophiliasgrandma
Member
09-04-2001
| Friday, June 05, 2015 - 9:48 am
Oh, nothing get my goat faster than someone telling how I should feel about something.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Friday, June 05, 2015 - 9:51 am
I've known/talked to countless survivors, male and female, of all levels of abuse and most often they may not really deal with it until their 40s or 50s.
And sometimes society and some therapists make it out to be a bigger deal than it really is, and end up making the subjects feel like they should have more bad feelings about it.
Yes, we shouldn't minimize the issue. But yes, we also shouldn't force people into the "victim" role if they don't feel it and don't want to be there. And believe me, that happens too.
If anything, the over-reaction today is going to worsen their impressions of what happened. Reading the police interviews, they weren't even done with great care to not put ideas into the children's heads - that something worse happened to them than they thought.
We tend to be so rigid about the ways we think about these things. But the fact is every person is different, every incident is different, and you have to be very very careful to respect that, rather than force your own ideas on the situation.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Friday, June 05, 2015 - 9:57 am
I don't think you get to survivor status in life with the abuse hidden away.
That is a completely false statement. You are a survivor if you have made a good life for yourself. There should be no other qualifications. Yes, I know in today's therapeutic communities, it's popular to say that abuse affects everyone the same, but it does not. There are many who get through this on their own, or with minimal help. Couple that with the fact that had these young woman not been told they were touched, some of them would might never have even known it!
Responsible treatment isn't based on saying how bad someone SHOULD feel. It is based on examining how the client DOES feel, and whether/if/what effects prior experiences are having on their ability to have a functional, effective life today. It's not based on WHAT happened, but on their perceptions and ideas about themselves because of what happened. Yes, it is quite possible for someone to have an effective, functional life without confessing abuse, and without extensive treatment. People are not one-size-fits-all.
At any rate, we aren't talking about keeping it hidden away from everyone, we are talking about revealing it in appropriate ways - with people you TRUST, family and/or therapist.
It certainly is in no way necessary to tell everyone what happened to you, and in fact, NO counselor will ever advise you to do that. No reputable counselor or therapist.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Friday, June 05, 2015 - 9:59 am
By the way, there is still much legal wrangling about whether the records were legally released or not.
In other words, a juvenile record is a juvenile record if you were a juvenile when the incident occurred. Not the age at which you were interviewed.
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Ophiliasgrandma
Member
09-04-2001
| Friday, June 05, 2015 - 11:23 am
Kar, I am thoroughly appreciating the tutorial you are giving us on abuse. Keep up the good work. I'm learning lots of things I did not know.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Friday, June 05, 2015 - 12:10 pm
Thanks, OG.
I guess I'm attuned to these issues because I was practicing during the era of implanted false memories, and of course it did happen. I knew too many therapists who decided that if their client has certain characteristics or issues, that they must have been abused as children, they just didn't remember it. 
And while it does happen that sometimes memories are suppressed, you do far more harm to someone by insisting that they were "violated" when they don't perceive it that way, or have moved on.
Don't get me wrong. Josh's behavior was wrong, and needed to be addressed. And the Duggars certainly made some errors in addressing it.
But the key issue is how everyone is TODAY. The vast majority of teen exploratory behavior does not result in longlasting behavioral problems. Especially if it only happens a handful of times.
Always, always, always, you must look at how the (now) adults perceive it today. And from everything I have seen so far, they've done pretty well.
Kids are fairly resilient. That doesn't mean we should let things like this go. But it also doesn't mean that we should assume they are horrifically damaged by the experience. None of us know. And the only ones who do are the ones who lived through it.
Crucifying Josh Duggar, or as I have seen on many websites, calling him a pedophile, simply has no basis in fact. Even pitying the girls/women and feeling sorry for them is inappropriate and misguided if they are not suffering.
Everything must be viewed in context, and by individual. I won't minimize his behavior, it was clearly inappropriate, but we don't know his mind at the time. And the particular incidents described may have had a huge effect on the girls, or none at all. We just don't know.
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Rehtse
Member
08-17-2005
| Friday, June 05, 2015 - 12:17 pm
I may not agree with everyone's point of view on this subject, but I appreciate the lively and respectful discussion that has taken place. Thank you all.
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Seamonkey
Moderator
09-07-2000
| Friday, June 05, 2015 - 2:59 pm
Kar, with all due respect, how can my OPINION be false? I have correctly stated my opinion and my experience as a survivor. Many survivors agree with me and many undoubtedly don't and I cannot imagine telling them that what they believe and experience is false!
I certainly agree that we cannot say these kids are horrifically damaged by the molestation. I think they are far more damaged by the whole rigid lifestyle they've lived, by the religion practiced by their parents and by being on reality tv.
But clearly many people ARE damaged and they may not deal with it until later in life.
I'm NOT telling anyone what they should or shouldn't do, but I have an opinion. I don't think we should tell people what they think or what they should do, that's for sure.
The Duggars are definitely trying to minimize their behavior and Josh's and actually trying to demonize anyone within shooting (or suing) distance.
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Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Friday, June 05, 2015 - 4:00 pm
May I gently say that your opinion is certainly your opinion and you have every right to express it. However, it still could be false (wrong). I know that sounds harsh. 
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Friday, June 05, 2015 - 4:06 pm
Yes, you are entitled to your opinion. And yes, opinions can be wrong, as I have stated before, when they contradict facts. If your opinion is I don't think you get to survivor status in life with the abuse hidden away. , then you are entitled to that, but I think you are very wrong.
I'm simply stating as a previous professional, that you don't have to tell ANYONE to be a *Survivor*. I reject that.
If you want to define survivor in some other way, you certainly can. But I wouldn't find that helpful, and private definitions of commonly used terms are confusing.
I think if you are alive, you are a survivor. And that is how it is commonly used in treatment circles.
The whole language of survivor/victim actually is problematic, anyway. However you look at it.
My overarching point is that we shouldn't put limiting concepts around any individual's experience or recovery from traumatic experiences. Nor should we put limiting concepts around the level of the trauma. None of that is helpful in real life situations, and it is often damaging, as in my example about therapists trying to tell people they are traumatized, when they do not have presenting symptoms and they don't feel traumatized.
The problem that I see is that people are saying well, they must be, they have just been told they can't. And that's because people reject their spiritual beliefs.
That's not a healthy therapeutic approach. Many people use their faith TO heal from trauma, and that's perfectly valid as well.
Again, there's a lot of amateur analysis going on all over the internet, and the fact is that none of us have talked to them personally, none of us are in any place to do any kind of assessment.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Friday, June 05, 2015 - 4:54 pm
Jimmer, is correct, opinions can be wrong.
Some people are of the opinion that gays are evil, and can choose their sexuality. Many people agree with them too.
Should we consider that a valid opinion?
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Onlyhuman
Member
08-04-2001
| Friday, June 05, 2015 - 6:53 pm
Interesting that you bring up gays being evil, because isn't that the opinion of the Duggars, including the girls? If, as you say, it's an invalid opinion, where did it come from? Clearly, it came from some sort of force that convinced them that they were so right about something that they had to speak out publicly to convince others. One could even see the girls as having been brainwashed by their upbringing into having such invalid opinions.
Seeing as how their family has had such a clear influence on their thoughts, to the point that they espouse some fairly radical opinions,questioning their statements now, when so much is on the line, is not an unreasonable stance for outsiders to take.
One statement of the father that I question is the concept that it was okay to do a TV show because this was all behind them. In fact, there would have been no police record to be revealed if they had not sought a public platform to pursue their agenda. Josh was an adult by the time Harpo Productions contacted the police. The investigation and referral to child services occurred after they had already done 3 specials and were starting the series. The specials had been filmed as the family was dealing with the molestations. It feels like it was a really bad decision to put yourself on the media glare when you could see how vulnerable it would leave your family, particularly if you felt this was something that needed to be hidden.
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Needmylifeback
Member
08-14-2000
| Friday, June 05, 2015 - 7:17 pm
Well .. although it's obvious they were heavily coached .. Jill and Jessa's interview has so far been much better than their parents.. they are coming across a little more real... (probably due to their ages) ... but, they still are using words that I don't quite believe are the words they would use if they haven't been told what to make sure they say during the interview...
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Keldogg
Member
08-12-2005
| Friday, June 05, 2015 - 7:20 pm
It wasnt just the police report. I can find people talking about it on the internet as far back as 2007. People in their community knew about it. They were very naive if they thought there was no way anybody would ever find out.
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