| Author |
Message |
Dillybean
Member
08-14-2010
| Thursday, May 28, 2015 - 7:00 pm 
It's really interesting reading all your comments.
The thing is I don't know if this 'church' is really qualified to mentor /help the offender or the victims in this situation. Then again if the family would have gotten traditional help our system is full of flaws.
I just hope that the girls involved have gotten to place of peace however they we able to do it. If not, some are old enough that they could talk to someone outside the church, but something makes me think that they would never do that.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Thursday, May 28, 2015 - 7:14 pm
Experimentation occurs between kids of varying ages. And yes, it can still be very confusing, and damaging to younger children. The technical standard is more than 5 years of age difference, but it can vary widely.
But how damaging it is to the younger children, doesn't change the *intent* of the older child. And again, we simply don't know enough here to make that assessment.
All we can say is that it was clearly wrong, and that it was dealt with poorly the first time it came to light.
We don't know what kind of counseling they received, and we don't know if it was adequate. It seems to have been adequate enough to keep him from offending again, as far as we know.
And we don't know if the young women received counseling, and/or if they made peace through faith. I've counseled many a young woman who used their faith beliefs to heal. It's a perfectly acceptable way to get to healing.
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Seamonkey
Moderator
09-07-2000
| Thursday, May 28, 2015 - 7:17 pm
It really isn't easy to get help or to know where to turn and I agree that mandated reporting, while it can be a good thing, can really complicate things. One size does not fit all when it comes to what might help someone who is being counselled. But rigid rules mean even the very best counsellor or therapist may be overruled and I certainly have no faith in the system as it is set up. 
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Mamabatsy
Member
08-05-2005
| Thursday, May 28, 2015 - 8:54 pm
When I worked a rape hotline, we had a binder full of places for people to get help, or just to talk on the phone. We had to be very clear with the callers about child abuse that if they tell us their names we have to tell the authorities. We had resources for them to contact and we had to remind them that if they let those contacts know who they are, CPS would be called.
Usually, if they were reporting a stranger or friend they were very clear who they were and provided any information we needed to report. If it was a funny grandpa or uncle, they were careful not to identify. The worst were the women who found out their husbands were molesting their daughters. If we couldn't get them to leave or put the child(ren) elsewhere, we'd try to trick them into giving more information than they really wanted. The absolute worst situation was when the abused child had to remain in the house with the abuser.
And very often it wasn't full on rape. With very young girls it was often a lot less, but still very traumatic for the girls.
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Seamonkey
Moderator
09-07-2000
| Thursday, May 28, 2015 - 9:10 pm
We had that same dilemma.. IF they gave us enough information, we had to report. Normally we'd try to get a phone mumber up front but that was mostly so if the caller got upset and hung up or got cut off we could call them back.. our calls came through an answering service and I'm not sure call waiting was around then anyway, but I didn't have it.
Ours was a sexual assault hotline but we certainly got a range of calls and issues and we had a ton of resources. Often it was listening/talking.
The scariest calls were the domestic violence calls. And of course we had referrals but you don't want to just jam referrals at people so we had training in that of course. I also trained at a women's shelter which helped to "get" it more.
And yes.. knowing someone was going to remain in a bad situation was the worst..
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Muffin
Member
08-29-2007
| Thursday, May 28, 2015 - 11:59 pm
The Duggars supposedly sought counseling from their church. Really, are the people they spoke to trained in dealing with matters of this type?? They probably, and I am assuming, had them praying more than ever and convinced that they need to forgive their brother. I see the problem of going to a licensed therapist, however, these are your daughters who have been wronged, and from what I understand, more than once.
Michelle and Jim Bob need to become parents to their children instead of leaving the cooking, cleaning and parenting up to your older children to do. And if it is too much for them, they should hire proper help. Let your children be children, instead of parents and housekeepers and cooks. Michelle is a stay at home Mother........she doesn't go out to work.
It's time for their show to end. They have become a farce!
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Stormie
Member
03-01-2007
| Friday, May 29, 2015 - 2:44 am
But a lot of people are incredibly naive about these things. They did separate them when they found out it was continuing.
The parents never said they were naive to anything, they said they were shocked. And any claimed 'separation' is unfounded, bc the molestation continued.
And yes, actually, getting REAL help does involve the system
Getting therapy is not being in the system, that is something completely different.
While molesting is wrong, yes, it can be experimentation at those ages. .
Molestation is not experimenting. A brother sneaking into his sisters rooms at night and touching their vagina's and breasts, various times, is assault. At age 14, you know right from wrong.
So, we shouldn't blanketly condemn, lest we drive other young people who need help and other young victims deeper into secrecy. That's the wrong approach.
This is not a broad social injustice that happened. The girls were victims of sexual assault, they matter.
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Stormie
Member
03-01-2007
| Friday, May 29, 2015 - 2:57 am
I came across this facebook page, there are people out there trying to help children. I don't know how this law affects homeschooled children, but it's a start.
https://www.facebook.com/ErinsLaw
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Ophiliasgrandma
Member
09-04-2001
| Friday, May 29, 2015 - 5:51 am
Don't forget Grandma Dugger is there and works along side everyone to keep the 'ship' afloat.
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Sadiesmom
Member
03-13-2002
| Friday, May 29, 2015 - 7:44 am
well, I suddenly realized why I reacted so strongly to this story (not molestation but someone in my family who thinks girls don't matter, boys will be boys) so now that my brain is working enough for it to register, I will talk to them about it, rather than rant,here, sorry for the interruption.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Friday, May 29, 2015 - 10:04 am
The parents never said they were naive to anything, they said they were shocked. And any claimed 'separation' is unfounded, bc the molestation continued.
My comment was in general, and it is true. Many parents when faced with sibling sexual activity are both shocked and unaware about how frequently it happens, and what to do about it.
Yes, they should have separated him when they first found out, but didn't. However, after they found it it was still happening, they clearly stated that they sent him to go live and work at the house he was helping build. So, yes, there was separation. This has been widely reported.
Getting therapy is not being in the system, that is something completely different.
As I said several times, when you get therapy for something like this, therapists are REQUIRED BY LAW to report you to the "system." Usually child protective services, sometimes to the police. So yes, getting therapy means you will be in the system. As a previously licensed therapist, I am well aware of this. And just because you are getting therapy privately, doesn't mean the "system" won't investigate, charge, take you away from your family, or force their own (often less experienced) therapist on you.
Molestation is not experimenting. A brother sneaking into his sisters rooms at night and touching their vagina's and breasts, various times, is assault. At age 14, you know right from wrong.
I don't know what it was, we don't have all the facts. It likely started as experimentation and in the absence of good sex education, and the reward of the thrills he got, became an obsession. But that's just a guess, because we don't know.
And often, these things start because he may well have been molested himself. We don't know that either... but it is a large part of this kind of behavior. So, where's the concern that he might have been a victim?
What I think is really naive is how little people know about sibling sexual behavior. It happens with very great frequency. The only odd thing here is a) they are a very public family; and b) it became a more persistant pattern with this young man. I remember all the great indignation and outrage when Lena Dunham's book came out.
The problem here is a social one. It's lack of adequate supervision, and lack of adequate age-appropriate education. And sibling sexual activity is extremely widespread and common.
This is not a broad social injustice that happened. The girls were victims of sexual assault, they matter.
Of course they matter. I have said so several times. But what also matters is how *they* feel about it. If they don't want it dragged out into the public and social media vitriol, if they want to forgive their brother and keep it private, that matters too. Because they DO matter.
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Ranger2
Member
08-08-2008
| Friday, May 29, 2015 - 11:56 am
I really had no idea that sibling sexual behavior happened so often. Why is it such a common occurance? Does it usually happen more if there's an older brother in the house and the sisters are younger?
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Friday, May 29, 2015 - 12:17 pm
Ranger, unfortunately it hasn't been well studied. Some estimates are that actual sibling *incest* occurs 5 times more frequently than adult on child incest. That's a BIG number!
And that is just actual incest, it doesn't include curiousity interactions.
We study parent on child incest quite extensively, but part of the problem here is that a lot of sibling sexual behavior is just natural curiousity. The professionals have had a hard time (and much disagreement) about when it crosses the line.
We don't want to make curiousity *deviant*. We do need to define when it becomes a problem.
Some of the guidlines have to do with difference in age (about 5-6 years); penetration, coercion or force. Those are all good guidelines for moving into the "abuse" category. And to partly answer your question, some experts have suggested that boys from 12-16 never be permitted to be alone with girls (and sometimes they include boys) more than 5 years younger than they are. That's kind of a big leap, but I get why they say it.
But each situation is different, and that's what I've tried to convey here. It's a little too easy to point fingers and blame and demonize, IMO.
You really have to look at all the family dynamics, the nature of the interactions (what actually happened), the frequency of the interaction, and whether there was force or coercion. And even then, you have to delve deeply into the attitudes/motivation of the perpetrator to make any kind of assessment concerning whether it's just a lack of education/supervision, whether they were previously abused themselves, or whether there may be some underlying biological persistent deviant behavior.
It's very complicated.
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Lilfair
Member
07-09-2003
| Friday, May 29, 2015 - 6:55 pm
Frankly I don't believe that Anna or her parents knew...just don't believe it. Just like I didn't believe Josh was sent to counseling. They change that story too.
Now reports came out that JimBob caught one of the boys pleasuring himself and for punishment he tied his hands together and made him do chores while his hands were tied.
This family is very antiquated when it comes the hormones.
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Ophiliasgrandma
Member
09-04-2001
| Saturday, May 30, 2015 - 9:10 am
We all know everything we read on the internet must be true.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Saturday, May 30, 2015 - 11:46 am
I spent some time last night reading the police report. It was difficult because it was heavily redacted.
I see no force or coercion in what Josh did. All the girls said he touched them when they were sleeping (except one incident). There was no violence or penetration.
I'm still inclined to believe that in a family where sex is taboo and education about it is likely faulty, that this was just a case of hormones gone wild, and not having the sufficient guidance for him to deal with it.
It was not repeated since then, the girls seem at peace with it, although they will likely need to revisit it as they get older, to understand it at a more mature level, and none of them seem to feel unsafe.
Except for the mention of the "rod" used to spank them, I find something unfortunate but not violent.
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Muffin
Member
08-29-2007
| Saturday, May 30, 2015 - 12:04 pm
After reading their Facebook page and what everyone of their followers were saying, I have come to my own conclusions.
Most called what Josh did was a mistake, and some even said it was a small mistake.
God will take care of everything and make it all right. If you ask for his forgiveness, you will get it, and Josh is forgiven.
His sisters were told to forgive him, and so they have.
They are going to boycott the 19 companies that have pulled out of the show, because how dare they do that.
Others felt that the show must continue, some said with or without Josh.
Some want Michelle to have more babies.
The media is all to blame for this.
In my opinion, if you make a mistake, yes, you can be forgiven, but, when you do it to 5 young girls over the course of a year or more, it is NOT a Mistake. It is intent.
I think their counseling was through God and those that have the same beliefs as them. I question that counseling.
We can discuss this situation until we are blue in the face, but it doesn't change the facts about it. We don't know everything and we never will.
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Aurora
Member
11-24-2006
| Saturday, May 30, 2015 - 12:34 pm
I see no force or coercion in what Josh did. All the girls said he touched them when they were sleeping (except one incident). There was no violence or penetration
Question. How do they know they were touched if they were sleeping?
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Ophiliasgrandma
Member
09-04-2001
| Saturday, May 30, 2015 - 1:00 pm
They woke up and caught him.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Saturday, May 30, 2015 - 1:38 pm
It is true we don't know everything, that's exactly why I am being circumspect in judging them.
And because I have dealt with teens in similar situations. Of course it's intentional. But what was the intention? To satisfy raging hormones and curiousity? Or to hurt, dominate or use the others?
Does it cause damage to the victims? Yes, of course.
I wouldn't minimize it as a mistake. However, the vast majority of teen offenders in this area are not pedophiles. So I wouldn't demonize it either. That would be ignoring the facts, and hurting a lot more people.
It was inappropriate behavior, it happens a lot more often than people think it does. It should be dealt with the same way you deal with other aberrant teen behavior, like inappropriate risk-taking, lying, or stealing, or trying drugs. With the addition of treating of the victims, of course.
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Kathyb
Member
05-17-2006
| Saturday, May 30, 2015 - 2:50 pm
Pedophile or not, he molested at least 5 little girls. There is no comparing that to risk-taking, lying, stealing or taking drugs. In my opinion, attempting to minimize what he did as 'raging hormones and curiosity' does a disservice to all victims of child molestation.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Saturday, May 30, 2015 - 3:09 pm
I respectfully disagree.
Teen behavior is notoriously risky and problematic for various reasons from hormones to brain development and lack of appropriate supervision.
As I noted, what he did was likely a product of those things.
That doesn't ever minimize what he did or the damage he did, and I never said that, and I still don't say it. It explains the behavior, it doesn't excuse it.
And if we are to respect the victims/survivors, we also need to respect their feelings about it NOW, including whether they have themselves forgiven him. Acting as if their feelings and decisions don't matter is re-victimization also.
As a survivor of child molestation myself, I will also say we are not all the same. A mature recognition of your own particular situation, and the freedom to do that without being judged is very important to recovery. The disservice is done by not recognizing us as individuals, and trying to make us all, and our various experiences, and yes, our siblings who committed the molestation into a one-size-fits-all.
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Keldogg
Member
08-12-2005
| Saturday, May 30, 2015 - 3:36 pm
The only thing I would tune into hearing is an apology to the LGBT community.
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Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Saturday, May 30, 2015 - 3:44 pm
I'm not sure why any of this has anything to do with the LGBT community? None of this makes their comments about LGBT any different. Their comments were hideous before and they still are but this has nothing to do with it.
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Seamonkey
Moderator
09-07-2000
| Saturday, May 30, 2015 - 3:50 pm
I think because Michelle reently made robo calls that told people that transgender people were really pedophiles trying to get access to opposite sex bathrooms, dorms, etc of your children. Probably the LGBTQ community and those who support them aren't over it and aren't ready to forgive her attacks and lies and thus see this as extremely ironic, to say the least.
sorry. I cannot even begin to say what I'd like to say and will attempt to stay out of this thread. But yes we are all different and thus have very different, but still valid, reactions.
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