| Author |
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Sunday, May 24, 2015 - 2:40 pm 
Keldogg, I do agree with you about that. I'm sure they were able to justify it within their world view, as many of us justify our own behavior that could have potentially bad consequences.
It's unfortunately quite human and more common than less.
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Sadiesmom
Member
03-13-2002
| Sunday, May 24, 2015 - 2:53 pm
I did not mean it as an insult I don't assume you don't know about it, I know it is not working the way people think it should. I thought you could talk to them. some one should. Like I said I know someone on the list who should not be on it since the accuser recanted and it was improbable to begin with -too long to go into here.novel worthy.
no we don't know what happened behind closed doors, but we do know he reoffended in a year, so he was not removed from authority over others. I know large families and some are very hands on, most are not depending on their children for a lot, if it is house work, so be it. But primary child care should not be on the list. heck my sister and I spent a ton of time raising my brothers, but we were not the final judges and could not punish and Mom and dad spent a lot of time with them when they were not working. our time was from after school until dinner and putting them to bed, but on weekends we would have to watch them for 8 hours or so. And we each had only one to care for, until my sister went to college, then I had 2 incorrigible guys until I went to college.
I don't think of things as experimentation when you are "experimenting" on people under your power. power always seems to change the picture.
there are times when I think 14 not fully formed, but when power is involved, it changes the picture for me. his apology reminds me of the sound of Will's apology in survivor, he apologized, but somehow it was then against the victim for not forgiving him, like I'm sorry yelled coldly at someone now they have to give them a hug and say it is all right. that is just a way to re victimize the victims. I am kind of curious about the destruction of the records that really should have never been available (so many problems with the justice system). th youngest and only eligible person is a child in the family, who do you think thought up that request? do you really believe that choice was involved.
I know I am highly sensitized to things that are not fair to females, and in my life a lot of that involves religion. what can I say beyond, that our lives format our outlook on different things. I am certainly not a counselor, ask me more questions about accounting, pensions or programming. even my knowledge of that is dated now since I don't work in those fields anymore.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Sunday, May 24, 2015 - 3:17 pm
Sadies, sorry, but I have no pull with the sex registry, if that's what you meant. One of the reasons I don't work in the field any more - it's fraught with wrongdoing, IMO.
As for the rest of your post, a lot of it is speculation, and that's fine. I'm just pointing out that a lot of the speculation is just that - speculation.
FWIW, yes, it can most certainly be "experimentation" when it's someone with less power than you, or someone sleeping, or even someone younger. Most certainly. I don't know if it was in this case or not.
And family victims, under the right circumstances, OFTEN forgive their family members. Sometimes too easily, sometimes reasonably. Again, we just don't know. And we don't know if the girls were coerced to do so or not either.
It's all just a bunch of accusations and speculation, but those aren't facts.
And I think THAT also revictimizes the young women. Acting as if they can't be their own people and decide to forgive on their own, is also an assault on their persons.
We don't know what went on, and in this case, I don't think it's fair to presume one way or the other.
Do I care if they have a tv show? Nope, didn't watch it, won't watch it now. Do I care if they stay on tv? Nope.
I care that their faith teaches them some pretty hateful stuff, and that they spew that all over the country because of their notoriety. That bothers me.
But all this personal business? I'm content to leave it personal unless the abuse is ongoing. Until someone can show me definitively that it is, I wish it would stop being reported on, EXCEPT to segue into the overarching issue of sex education, molestation and bettering public knowledge about the issue.
Because from what I read in a lot of places, there seems to be a lot of wrong information. That's the part that bothers me.
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Dogdoc
Member
09-29-2001
| Sunday, May 24, 2015 - 3:33 pm
Karuuna, you said up thread that you would not necessarily turn your child in, you would get him therapy.
Would you take responsibility if your child molested again and again.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Sunday, May 24, 2015 - 4:02 pm
Oh dear Dogdoc, if my child molested any one even one time, it would be a very very long time before he was ever unsupervised again at any time! 
But I have training, myself personally. I wouldn't expect untrained parents to know precisely what to do. But I honestly can't blame them for not turning their kids in, and then unfortunately not having access to the right kind of help.
And sadly, after my experiences, I would have a hard time recommending that they go get help too. It was a huge moral dilemma for me, after what I witnessed locally. One of the many reasons I gave up my license!
I've seen both extremes. A judge who returned custody of a 13 year old to her step dad (the abuser) and her mother in spite of clear evidence that was a terrible thing to do (the young lady then committed suicide).
To this young man who through bad parenting saw some things he shouldn't have and decided to try them on his sleepover friends - being wrenched from a loving (but unaware) home and villified as a "sex offender."
It was very hard to find balanced people who took an unprejudiced and reasonable approach. At least not where I live.
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Dogdoc
Member
09-29-2001
| Sunday, May 24, 2015 - 4:45 pm
I could have gotten into trouble once.
A friend of mine from church was asked to be in the church nursery to watch the baby of a choir member.
She was afraid to watch the baby alone because she was afraid she could not pick him up if he cried.
I was walking up the stairs to the nursery and two boys were on the stairs. The 2 year old was butt naked and sliding down the stairs.
I told him he had to put his pants on but the 8 year old (who was babysitting) said they were 'wet.'
I told the younger boy to keep the underpants off but he had to put on the other pants. He could not go down stairs like that.
On Sunday his mother came up to me and asked me if I asked her son to take off his under pants. She said she noticed them missing when she went to give him has bath. When she asked him where they were he said "Dr. Sally told me to take them off."
I said "No, they were wet and I said he didn't have to put them back on"
She said, "Oh, I was just wondering where the were."
Luckily, the older boy who had been there said he had hung them up in the nursery bathroom.
That could have been a bad situation if the mother didn't know me pretty well.
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Bluejaxrock
Member
04-23-2004
| Monday, May 25, 2015 - 8:23 am
Texannie
Member
07-15-2001
Sunday, May 24, 2015 - 1:29 pm Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post Send Texannie a private message Print Post
"thanks, kar for saying so eloquently what has been swirling in my head and couldn't quite get out."
Me,too.
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Reader234
Member
08-13-2000
| Monday, May 25, 2015 - 10:38 am
Thank you Kar for giving the depth of response needed.
I just hope that somehow the focus, or the attention for the victims is also in the fore front. I too was sexually abused by a person in power and through a "church" when I was 4 years old I apparently told my grandpa, and there was a confrontation. I was slapped for lying. Mom told me this much later in life, when I confessed that the abuse continued until I was in 6th grade.
See Mom thought confronting the monster (my paternal grandfather) would stop it, that they would watch him. It wasn't till he abused outside the family that he was caught, but he was an old man, and nothing could be done.
so my heart does go out to those girls.
and as a mom, I don't want to think what I would do in that position - but luckily, Kar was able to give great information, that is appreciated
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Sanfranjoshfan
Member
09-17-2000
| Monday, May 25, 2015 - 12:08 pm
At least this was all publicly reported.
The Duggars are no longer the "role models" they pretended to be. They're just run of the mill hypocrites who should be dealing with their own issues, not pointing fingers at innocent gay people and advocating for their condemnation.
I'd personally like to see all "religious" folks who constantly judge and condemn innocent gay people have their sick and dirty little secrets revealed. Nothing is uglier than the anti-gay "moral" outrage of someone who has secretly molested children.
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Countrydaze
Member
11-07-2003
| Monday, May 25, 2015 - 12:16 pm
I was watching the show last week and something Michelle said just hit me. She was talking about when she was a teenager she used to mow the grass in her bikini and later she realized that the woman in the neighborhood were upset with her (or something like that) because their husbands used to look at her so that is why girls need to dress properly covered up. So is it my understanding that if something happens it is the girls fault for dressing the way they do? Sorry, but the teenagers in my neighborhood also mow in their bathing suits and I have never caught my husband oogling them. Ok he may have looked, he isn't dead but he never sat and stared nor would he ever act on it. Funny the males can dress for comfort, but the girls can't doesn't seem right to me
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Granjan
Member
05-10-2011
| Monday, May 25, 2015 - 12:55 pm
I wonder if, with Josh's actions, that is when the side hug and the younger girls wearing tights under their dresses started?
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Monday, May 25, 2015 - 1:13 pm
Thank you to those who found my posts helpful in any way.
Reader, I had a similar experience... about reporting and slapped for lying. I'm so sorry you went through that.
I don't like some of the Duggars for their political and religious beliefs. They are hateful.
However, I can put that dislike aside enough to say that we shouldn't treat these young women as victims, because we don't know if they see themselves that way. Yes, they were at one time. But the family says they received counseling. They may have and may have chosen to forgive their brother. He may, as he says, deeply regret what he has done and atoned as best he can, and never offended again.
Until there is evidence otherwise, I have to leave it alone. Because some of the things I have read on the internet not only demonize him, but also are very condescending and mean to those young women. They should be respected for their choices, unless we have evidence that forgiveness was coerced.
The better conversation to have are these issues of inadequate treatment when it is reported, and the problems with the sex registry, and most of all education about these matters and *responsible* treatment that neither demonizes nor minimizes these things.
If anything comes of this, I hope it continues the public education and conversation about a horrific issue in our culture.
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Sadiesmom
Member
03-13-2002
| Monday, May 25, 2015 - 1:17 pm
kind of off topic. I would never mow the lawn in anything not covered up, but that could be because my neighbors use decorative stone and it migrates to my lawn so when I mow, there are stones flying and even in long pants and solid shoes, I get cut up. although if I wore a bikini people would run down the street screaming in horror, go figure. no seriously, I can't even wear capris with those darn stones. and the dog has to be locked up inside when I mow. I have asked the neighbors to put up a retaining short fence to contain then, but now, maybe next time I rake to remove them, I will dump them in the middle of their front yard, no one on the block likes these people, it is not just me but I get the brunt of their rudeness. thankfully, when it is really hot, the grass does not grow.
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Ophiliasgrandma
Member
09-04-2001
| Monday, May 25, 2015 - 1:22 pm
Ah, Karuuna, it's lovely to hear a voice of reason on this subject. Thank you.
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Seamonkey
Moderator
09-07-2000
| Monday, May 25, 2015 - 1:40 pm
I don't agree that I would trust the Duggars when they say the girls got counseling and thus I would hope they get some encouragement (and not just radio silence) that it would be okay for them TO speak out about what happened, whether they "forgive" or not.
Yes there are people on the internet saying ridiculous things or unkind things but I don't see why actual discussion should be quashed here beause of what other people are saying.
They may be so conditioned and brainwashed that it would be difficult but just maybe if they get an inkling, now or later, that people are angry about the hypocrisy of their parents and not angry AT them (the girls), it might make them feel less alone, less shamed.
I do fear that TLC will simply let Josh take the fall and keep the show going without him.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Monday, May 25, 2015 - 1:57 pm
No one is trying to QUASH conversation, that's just not true! What I am doing is posting my opinion, which of course is what everyone else is doing. In fact, I have said several times that others are ENTITLED to their opinions, and that their speculation may well be correct. Your characterization is untrue and unfair.
You have no *evidence* to say that they didn't get adequate counseling, it's just an opinion. You have no evidence that they are conditioned or brainwashed, it's just an opinion. And you don't know if they feel shamed or alone, that's just your speculation. In fact, there's a lot of public shaming of them going on right now, for having DARED to forgive their brother! They couldn't possibly forgive him! That scumbag! /sarcasm
It is certainly possible that they feel the way you think they do. (see, I just did it again!  ) It is also quite possible that in their framework and world view, as I see in many Christian families, they have indeed forgiven their brother, and made their peace. Just as I have forgiven my family for the horrendous things that happened to me. MY choice.
And I also know that their privacy is being violated, which is also painful for survivors. We have no right to do that, frankly. That's cruel and disrespectful. If they want to talk about it, now or in the future, that's their choice.
I'm not opposed to supporting them, but that support includes RESPECTING their wishes and choices, whether we agree with them or not. They may be in a different place tomorrow, or a year from now, but trust me very little going on in this public dissection of their private matters is helping them.
One of the worst kinds of revictimization is telling a victim what they should do, how they should feel, and that they are wrong in handling the situation in the way that is best for them TODAY.
And there is a lot of that going on.
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Ophiliasgrandma
Member
09-04-2001
| Monday, May 25, 2015 - 3:04 pm
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Dipo
Member
04-23-2002
| Monday, May 25, 2015 - 4:13 pm
Sadiesmom, I thought the same thing...It is dangerous to mow without being fully clothed...at least it was where I mowed.
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Dipo
Member
04-23-2002
| Monday, May 25, 2015 - 4:15 pm
I'm sorry but this is a problem that is a lot more widespread than people believe and until it stops being kept secret it will continue, IMO.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Monday, May 25, 2015 - 4:34 pm
1) I also have to wear at least long pants when I mow, or my legs suffer.
2) Yes, it is a widespread problem. However, individuals deserve their privacy in these matters also, they should not be made to be public spectacles. Not by their parents, and not by the public. If they want to come forward, fine. If they don't want to, we should leave them alone.
If the general coverage and information was to share education about the seriousness of the issue, I'm fine with that. But overall, IMO, that's not what is happening. What is mostly happening is an attack on this family for their faith and how they handled it, while not really knowing all the facts about how they handled it.
We can certainly agree that some things were done incorrectly. It should never have been allowed to re-occur. But the details about what was done after that are unclear.
So, yeah, let's talk about it. And let's talk about how in many cities across the US victims don't come forward PRECISELY because they are afraid of the kind of frenzy being generated here - in their own personal circles. And they don't come forward because the system often revictimizes them as well.
So, yeah, let's talk about that.
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Texasdeb
Member
05-23-2003
| Monday, May 25, 2015 - 4:42 pm
All families have things they prefer to keep only within the family. Most families don't make the biggest part of their living by sharing their families every moves. The fact that Jim Bob & his son, Josh have used the fame of this family's "different than most" lifestyle as a platform to push their beliefs is now shocking folks now that the scandal inside their own family is coming out. It's only a scandal because they are famous & the public has come to follow them through their tv show & media contact. They have made a fortune off of the public's interest & now they are being asked to tell us everything............I don't see why they want "us" to give them privacy NOW! Without our interest, where would they be financially? They chose this exposure yrs ago & Jim Bob is not so stupid that he didn't know that the family "scandal" might eventually come out. If anything, this "scandal" has sparked even more interest in their family that is so "different" than most of ours. Scandal sells! Makes you wander.........look at what the Kardashians have done with it.
This Duggar family is now not competing with the Bates family for having similar shows........
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Monday, May 25, 2015 - 4:48 pm
I agree with that part, TexasDeb. That the *parents* should never have taken the risk of being on TV and having this come out. But many people catavaulted to fame (of whatever dubious kind) are often shocked at the level of lack of privacy... it is harder to anticipate than one would think.
But however they came to be "famous" or infamous, I care about the kids. That's all I care about. And however we feel about how badly the family acted, those girls deserve our compassion, and their privacy if they want it.
Those children did not choose to be on tv (in an adult decision making way), and they didn't choose to be molested. So they shouldn't be included with whatever choices their Parents made. I don't care if your parents are the Duggars, or the President's or the Palins, until you are an adult, you should be protected from the frenzies of social media. We can all do better.
Just because the public has some kind of obsession with them, doesn't mean we should feed that obsession at the expense of victims.
That's my opinion.
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Texasdeb
Member
05-23-2003
| Monday, May 25, 2015 - 5:16 pm
I know Karuna - I would like the names of the girls to remain concealed! We don't need to cause them any more difficulties than they've already been through. Public interest will not allow this to just go away & everything get back to like it was before the information became "public". I realize that it's unfortunate for this family.......BUT, they took that risk when they signed up to get paid for publicizing their life. I would assume there are many other families that have lived a lifestyle similar to the Duggars...........the dif, they didn't make a fortune by making their life a public interest.
Yes, I'm invested in this family because I've "spent time with them" & gotten to know them through their tv show. I've actually adored many of their values that I have come to realize that they have. I don't want their show to go away! But, I want them to deal with this past negative issue on the show....yes, I said on the show! I don't see the show ever surviving if they don't.
If they want "it" to go away........they will have to go away & loose all of the income that they get from TLC & our interest.
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Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Monday, May 25, 2015 - 5:41 pm
Actually, public interest can be quite fickle. We've already quite forgotten about the crazy old guy from Duck Dynasty and Paula Dean.
Sometimes the best thing to do is just keep your head down until the next scandal comes along.
And the best thing to do here might well be that. Because frankly, no matter what they say, it will only bring more criticism their way because they are so controversial.
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Rehtse
Member
08-17-2005
| Monday, May 25, 2015 - 7:15 pm
What Josh Duggar did does not compare to what the Duck Dynasty guy or Paula Dean did. Every time I see this family I will think about child abuse. Similar to when the maytag guy molested Arnold's friend on Differen' Strokes. I could never watch a washing machine commercial and not think "that's the guy who molested Dudley."
Some will watch the show again, but I could not.
Something else I can't do: mow the grass unless fully clothed. I don't want my skin to turn to leather so it's long pants and long sleeves, hat and gloves for me.
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