| Author |
Message |
Reader234
Member
08-13-2000
| Saturday, May 23, 2015 - 2:47 pm 
Thanks Keldogg, I appreciate that explanation!
Theres a lot of posts in the Quiverfull of Duggars
|
Sueby
Member
11-18-2004
| Saturday, May 23, 2015 - 8:24 pm
Here is a sight that had someone named Alice told the story that no one really wanted to believe.
This was in May 2007.
http://www.ibiblio.org/bascha/blog/2006/03/21/gigantic-family-day-on-tlc/#comment-36114
I find it hard to believe TLC didn't know about this.
|
Cino_b
Member
06-08-2006
| Saturday, May 23, 2015 - 10:10 pm
They are saying they may bring back 19 kids and counting without Josh and then maybe with just the sisters.
|
Keldogg
Member
08-12-2005
| Saturday, May 23, 2015 - 10:52 pm
The idea that those parents would put those girls back on tv is disgusting!
|
Reader234
Member
08-13-2000
| Sunday, May 24, 2015 - 6:23 am
The problem with showing "without Josh" Is the family is supporting him. He will move back to AK, and his father will continue to give them money from the show. No matter how they disguise it, in their minds, he's forgiven and will never understand why us "heathens" (my words in their context ;) ) won't "get over it"
I hope General Mills, and the people continue to show their disgust and ask the sponsors not to support this -
there is that "conservative Christians" that will want this show on the air - they are shown praying etc... so that must be good for "Christians" to watch... (smh)
|
Rehtse
Member
08-17-2005
| Sunday, May 24, 2015 - 6:40 am
While I think that there is a small subset of conservative Christians that want the show to continue, I believe that there are a lot of conservative Christians that believe the show should be cancelled because to allow it to continue would be reprehensible and antithetical to the values that they hold dear.
I'm with Reader and hope that sponsors refuse to sponsor the show in any future manifestation.
I also hope that the exposure of Josh's acts will be a catalyst for freeing these children.
|
Texannie
Member
07-15-2001
| Sunday, May 24, 2015 - 7:24 am
I don't care one way or another if the show stays on the air or not. I guess what troubles me is the opinions by so many that the counseling the children involved received is 'not good enough' and they did not receive 'enough counseling. how do we judge that?
|
Keldogg
Member
08-12-2005
| Sunday, May 24, 2015 - 8:11 am
We surmise that a) knowing the type of "counseling" that Josh received and b) reading the curriculum that is used in their home based education that shows their counseling for sexual abuse. It basically tells the girls that either it was their fault for being too much of a temptation or if not their fault they should accept it because it makes them spiritually better. Absolutely sickening!
|
Texannie
Member
07-15-2001
| Sunday, May 24, 2015 - 8:27 am
i must have missed something. how do we know what type of counseling he received and how did we see their curriculum?
|
Keldogg
Member
08-12-2005
| Sunday, May 24, 2015 - 8:33 am
A) in the police report it is explained that his counseling was that he was sent to a family friend to do "hard labor" and also got a stern lecture from a cop ( who it turned out was also a pedophile)
B) they use the Gothard curriculum for home schooling and I have read the curriculum for teaching about sexual abuse. It can be found on the internet. And as an added note Bill Gothard has been accused of sexual abuse and is currently being sued by his alleged victims.
|
Texannie
Member
07-15-2001
| Sunday, May 24, 2015 - 9:20 am
please do not think for a minute i am condoning sexual abuse, rape, incest at all.
i went and read the info on the site. and yes, it's disturbing.
i see the 'lessons from a moral failure in a family' http://gawker.com/the-duggar-homeschool-programs-terrifying-advice-on-sex-1706406324 quoted as proof of their horrible teachings.
what if they questions were not looked at through a religious filter, wouldn't they be similar to what a 'normal' therapist might ask?
1.when did you first realize you might be attracted to children?
2. is there anything in your past that might have contributed to this? where you abused?
3. did you talk to anyone else about these issues? did you ask for help?
4. what do you think you could have done to prevent you from acting out on your urges?
5. Ann speaking here - yes, i struggle with this one as a question to the abuser, but a 'normal' therapist might ask the parents of the abuser if they taught their other children about stranger danger, about good touch/bad touch
6. again, another quesiton for the parents..what factors in your home might have contributed? do you monitor their internet, is pornography allowed in the home?
the first bible verse quoted blames both parties for being willing participants. the next one blames the woman for not reporting if there are people around to tell - definitely sounds like they are blaming the victim for not telling. the next versus (which is not quoted) completely blames the man and frees the woman from any blame.
The other verses quoted tell the abuser to confess their sins and ask God for forgiveness.
|
Keldogg
Member
08-12-2005
| Sunday, May 24, 2015 - 9:58 am
I would never assume that anyone was condoning this, but just trying to understand this. And yes the questions are some which would be asked in mainstream psychological counseling. But sexual abusers cannot be "cured" in 3 months. They cannot "pray" their urges away. Remember these are the same people who believe you can pray the gay away.
They also made his victims continue to live with their abuser which is probably pisses me off the most.
|
Naja
Member
06-28-2003
| Sunday, May 24, 2015 - 11:22 am
One part that gets to me is that even after he was caught the first time, he was still allowed to be in situations where it could happen again, until he was caught again a year later. I completely blame the parents for that year it continued after he was caught the first time.
|
Marameko
Member
07-14-2002
| Sunday, May 24, 2015 - 12:19 pm
Naja......ITA
It is sad that it took this disgusting situation to get rid of this show. Once the "Bruce situation"calms down I wish the Kardashians would disappear as well.
|
Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Sunday, May 24, 2015 - 12:38 pm
I'm sorry, but there is an awful lot of misinformation about teen sexual behavior here.
Every case is different. Some offend once and never again. Some stop once they have been caught and go through some kind of crisis. Some require many years of counseling. Some have a lifelong problem.
Do I think the Duggars handled it appropriately? No.
But the broadbrush painting going on is simply incorrect. Only a professional, who actually speaks to him can ascertain the extent of the issue, and what his prognosis is.
As for the victims continuing to live with him, again, that is a decision that must be made within the context of the family and competent professional advice. It is generally appropriate for an immediate separation, but the *length* of that separation is dependent on the situation.
This is the problem I have with reporting, actually. There are still many professionals or para-professionals who believe either that it is not that bad, or some who believe it is catastrophic and the person is unsalvagable. The truth is, every situation is different.
Case in point, one of my DS's young friends molested other friends in his circle when they were about 13. He has received counseling, is now 20, and has never re-offended. How did it come about? Parents who mistakenly didn't guard their cable TV channels from young eyes.
He's not a monster. He's a kid who wasn't well-guided. He shouldn't be hated for life.
We don't know all the particulars here. We can certainly learn some lessons, and think about what we would do in similar circumstances.
But while I will judge them harshly on their religious views, which I have plenty of information about to judge them on; I won't judge them or Josh harshly here.
All this buzz is just revictimizing the victims. And that's the worst part of all this. The victims deserve better.
|
Naja
Member
06-28-2003
| Sunday, May 24, 2015 - 12:51 pm
Karuuna, the first time he was caught he admitted to doing it many times already. It wasn't once and caught. It wasn't once and never again. It already happened over and over, and then was allowed to continue for another year. "Allowed" may be the wrong word. I guess it's more like he was allowed to be in the situations where it could happen.
So the possibility here of once and never again doesn't apply at all.
|
Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Sunday, May 24, 2015 - 12:57 pm
Naja, I understand that.
I agree that they did not handle it appropriately, referring to the first time they discovered it.
After they did handle it differently - with separation from the family, and some kind of counseling, from what I can see, it was then never again. That's my point here.
And my overarching point is that pronouncements about one a molester, always a molester are simply not true. And the length of therapy needed isn't set in stone, it's an individualized process. And there is real recovery. No one needs to be condemned for life.
And more importantly, all this media buzz and specualation about which children were molested, is unkind, cruel and revictimizes the victims in exchange for some kind of self congratulations for attacking someone for something that happened many years ago.
I just think it's wrong.
|
Texannie
Member
07-15-2001
| Sunday, May 24, 2015 - 1:29 pm
thanks, kar for saying so eloquently what has been swirling in my head and couldn't quite get out.
|
Jimmer
Moderator
08-30-2000
| Sunday, May 24, 2015 - 1:33 pm
The other problem with the "once a molester always a molester" view is that sort of view is exactly what makes families hide these things and makes people reluctant to seek treatment and try to get better.
And you all know that I'm not a fan of the Duggars and their political and religious beliefs.
|
Naja
Member
06-28-2003
| Sunday, May 24, 2015 - 1:54 pm
Where in this thread did anybody do anything you guys are talking about? I really hope you mean the media did that.
What I see here in this thread is mostly people aggravated he was allowed to continue after he was caught the first time, as well as their (Josh and his Parents) public hypocritical views that it's LGBT people that are a danger to children.
<99>
|
Sadiesmom
Member
03-13-2002
| Sunday, May 24, 2015 - 2:04 pm
I think Karuuna needs to talk to someone about the sex registry, it is not that forgiving.
People can get listed just from trying to get help, which stops people for asking for help. People can get listed when someone has it in for them. (know one!)
lots of times kids get put on the registry for experimenting with people of their own age, but in this case, the parent are completely to blame, for not having the talk with their children, for entrusting their children to be surrogate parents because the real parents have too many to raise themselves.
it is not just experimentation when your victims are asleep or when you are put in a position of caring for someone under 5 and abuse them. it needs immediate and serious attention. I can see not involving the police, but just sending him away for a while does not do it. You need to take away his responsibility for any others and his revered position in the family so that others could share. YOu need to talk to each child to find the full length of the issue. You can not blame the victims as families who do not value girls tend to do.
I hope these kids survive this kind of upbringing and recover from it. I am not thrilled that they reproduce so much and keep the kids in ignorance about so much. see creationism and sec education. More bad voters and I have to suffer the result.
|
Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Sunday, May 24, 2015 - 2:16 pm
I think Karuuna needs to talk to someone about the sex registry, it is not that forgiving.
Actually, as a previously licensed therapist, I know everything I need to know about the sex registry, you have no right to assume that I don't. And what I know is that just because someone is on it, doesn't mean they should be.
In fact, thank you for making my point about how some of the system is *overzealous* in their persecution; and the ridiculousness of the sex registry in some instances is a perfect example of what's wrong with it.
And yes, actually, it can very well BE experimentation when you are molesting someone who is asleep or very young. Absolutely. To say it's not is a gross misunderstanding of this issue.
And as to your second paragraph, with all your recommendations, we have no evidence to say that they didn't do all or any of those things. None.
They said he received some kind of counseling, and he was removed from the home for some period of time. All the evidence so far says that he did not offend again. That's some evidence that it worked. We don't know what was done for the girls, and frankly it's none of our business to peer into the victims' therapy, unless they are personally willing to share it.
Part of the reason people don't report is what is happening all over the internet. People come up with all kinds of harsh and uninformed *opinions* that are not based on the facts. And thus, as I keep saying, revictimize the victims. Why in the hell would they come forward with this kind of atmosphere???
|
Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Sunday, May 24, 2015 - 2:18 pm
Naja, there are certainly people here and all over the internet who are relishing the downfall of this family. And certainly people are entitled to them. I am not speaking to the particulars of any one of them, just an overall view of what I see happening: here, internet, media. I am entitled to my opinion that it is wrong; and as someone who previously worked in the field, I wanted to try and correct some misconceptions.
Texannie, you are very welcome. Thank you for your support. I know it's not the popular view these days, but it is the *fair* view, IMO.
|
Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Sunday, May 24, 2015 - 2:30 pm
By the way, for all of you that said you would not turn your children in, but you would get them appropriate counseling, in most cases that's not possible.
There are certain professions, from therapists to doctors to police to social workers to most kinds of first responders that are required by law to report.
So, the moment you seek licensed therapy, it's out of your hands.
|
Keldogg
Member
08-12-2005
| Sunday, May 24, 2015 - 2:34 pm
When people decide to put their lives on television, they are taking a huge risk, but they are willing to pay that price for whatever their gain is, be it money or fame or a platform to preach. Adults can make that choice, but making that choice for your children should make people stop and think long and hard before you do that. And knowing that there are things such as this that you want to keep hidden, why on earth would you take that chance. I just don't get it at all.
|
