| Author |
Message |
Jimmer
Board Administrator
08-29-2000
| Wednesday, August 31, 2022 - 2:21 pm 
I'll add that you make a good point about evolving positions, though I'm somewhat less charitable about giving people (i.e. Michael) credit for evolving positions when they specifically say they are holding onto it to use when it will benefit their game.
The issue I have is the extremes. Some people seem to intensely dislike Kyle now. Hate is close to the word for it.
They formed their backyard alliance including a black guy (LOL who still seems to be trying to keep Kyle) and immediately targeted the white guy and the white woman. When that failed there literally was no other option than to have two black people nominated. There wasn't anyone else Turner could nominate other than Monte. Plus it was Turner's game to nominate, not Kyle's. I don't think people think Turner is racist. Michael used this to shame Turner into not nominating Monte and to nominate Kyle. Good gameplay by Michael.
|
Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Wednesday, August 31, 2022 - 2:35 pm
Turner could nominate Alyssa, Kyle, Terrance or Monte once the veto was used. So literally, he had several choices.  . He was just choosing to align with some of them, and the only one he was aligning with that was black was Terrance. Whom Kyle also suggested in his convo with Brittany was an "acceptable" alliance, only to get out another POC: Joseph. But Turner isn't the issue here is, the worm in his ear (Kyle) was the issue. And Michael was good to Turner (and himself) by letting Turner know what Kyle said before, and how Turner's nomination of two POC might look in light of that.
I don't hate Kyle. I think he's a naive young man, but I don't know his heart either way, honestly.
Michael didn't say he was holding onto it for his game until the week Kyle became an unknown... and Kyle had previously shown himself to have other motives than the LOs. He basically said IF Kyle turns on us, I have something I can use. His preference would have been that Kyle not turn, and that he not use it.
These are all nuanced things. It's not so simple to me.
|
Jimmer
Board Administrator
08-29-2000
| Wednesday, August 31, 2022 - 2:59 pm
Well the only person that Turner could nominate that wasn't in his alliance was Monte. Of course, he had other options and he used them.
I agree it's very nuanced and not simple and that has been one of my points all along.
I still feel more discomfort than you at Michael consciously holding onto this and using it to forward his game because racism and discrimination is such a big thing for so many people in their real life. But I do understand why he did it. It's disturbing how BB can be so representative and at times unrepresentative of real life.
|
Maineiac
Member
08-24-2009
| Wednesday, August 31, 2022 - 4:17 pm
I didn’t see Turner choosing to align with Michael and Brittany. I saw it as he was put in a position he was uncomfortable with. That is why he felt no other choice than to put Kyle on the block and “let the house decide”. Doesn’t sound like he had a choice in aligning with Kyle at all because you know…the optics.
|
Chippy
Member
08-16-2007
| Wednesday, August 31, 2022 - 4:24 pm
Michael calculates everything he does. It’s why I’m rooting for him to win. I mean it was brilliant what he did. Doesn’t make it right.
I was actually both surprised and pleased that the reaction here to the original sin was mostly very reasonable. I remember like it was yesterday that I said don’t be surprised when future hamsters watch for another cookout. Not surprising to me at all. Expected really. It was after all a winning strategy.
What’s more irritating to me is that despite this being overblown deluxe, they’ve managed to convince Kyle he really is a bad person, he should hang his head in shame, apologize to everyone not white, leave the game, and get more therapy so he can further recognize his shortcomings and learn from them. This because he went on a reality show to win a bunch of money. Silly.
|
Chippy
Member
08-16-2007
| Wednesday, August 31, 2022 - 4:25 pm
Optics rule the world lol
|
Kensiebeth
Member
07-19-2009
| Wednesday, August 31, 2022 - 7:49 pm
Jimmer, Maineiac and Chippy, y'all express what I feel, I've had so many mixed emotions about this week! I'll just be glad when tomorrow is over and we can move on from there. I still hope that Michael and Brittany are the next two out and Monte and Turner are the final two, whoever wins from there is fine with me!
|
Jimmer
Board Administrator
08-29-2000
| Wednesday, August 31, 2022 - 8:15 pm
While these issues are important, I agree that it will be wonderful if the remaining houseguests can move on and finish playing the game with race not being a factor in the outcome.
|
Chippy
Member
08-16-2007
| Thursday, September 01, 2022 - 4:49 am
Well how can it ever? In a word… optics. How in the world is Turner dumb enough to take what he knows is all done for game and feel that he is in any way responsible or complicit. It’s that white guilt that well, if you don’t have it, ya better get it cause you’re part of the problem.
And what started out with a whispered conversation among sopposed allies voicing very reasonable concern about another cookout became a story about Kyle pushing an all white alliance over and over and over. Michael nor Brittany did much more than shake their heads and give some looks with a few oohs about the optics. They didn’t shut him down like some say.
Then enter production with some therapists who were thankfully able to convince Kyle he really is a racist. So now the ones saying he’s a racist can say look… he even says he’s a racist. Doesn’t matter we weren’t privy to a whole lot of what happened when feeds were down. Let’s suppose the worst especially if it benefits the favorite.
It’s how I see it and exactly why BB will never be the same.
|
Strategist
Member
07-01-2014
| Thursday, September 01, 2022 - 5:17 am
1- Turner has nothing to be guilty about.
2- I believe that Kyle thought he was playing the game and wanted to mitigate an issue that did not exist. That does not automatically make him a racist. Certainly, Kyle must know about racial biases against people of colour as this issue is widely known in real life, on social media, and in Big Brother. However, I believe that Kyle may have been naive since his upbringing has not given him much exposure to minorities. He should have known that targeting people based on their race would not fly, but it did not occur to him as he was thinking about his own survival in the game.
3- If Michael and Britany were truly allies, they would have addressed the issue immediately with Kyle. They were just looking out for themselves and they used this issue as an opportunity to further themselves in the game. I see this as more malicious since they knew better from the start and they did nothing about it.
We've seen others incorrectly assume that something was happening behind their backs when it was not. However, in this case there were likely some systemic biases in play.
This is a teachable moment for Kyle. But, unfortunately the way we treat people who have done wrong makes it very difficult for them to change for the better. Often, they retreat into the world they came from and become very resentful.
I think Kyle, Michael, and Britany all have an opportunity to grow and do better in the future...if we let them.
|
Maineiac
Member
08-24-2009
| Thursday, September 01, 2022 - 5:47 am
Chippy
<<< What’s more irritating to me is that despite this being overblown deluxe, they’ve managed to convince Kyle he really is a bad person, he should hang his head in shame, apologize to everyone not white, leave the game, and get more therapy so he can further recognize his shortcomings and learn from them. This because he went on a reality show to win a bunch of money. Silly.>>>
I think this is what bothers me the most. So over the top!
|
Maineiac
Member
08-24-2009
| Thursday, September 01, 2022 - 5:59 am
I agree about production Chippy. After watching last nights episode, it was clear that Kyle went into the diary room worried he’s being painted as something he’s not.
He came out completely submissive to being a horrible racist who needs to make amends using a 12 step program.
|
Hwest
Member
07-01-2011
| Thursday, September 01, 2022 - 6:09 am
Jimmer and Chippy have expressed my sentiments on the matter perfectly.
|
Grooch
Member
06-16-2006
| Thursday, September 01, 2022 - 6:34 am
Excellent post, Strategist. Thank you.
|
Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Thursday, September 01, 2022 - 9:17 am
I just don't remember the facts of what happened the same way that some of you do. 
What happened: Kyle didn't just wonder about a Cookout 2.0. He *proposed* an all-white alliance (without using those words), just in case there was one. And he did this with clear evidence that there wasn't a Cookout 2.0. My opinion: Either he is racist, or he is unconsciously biased.
What happened: Not sure what Michael said, but Brittany clearly said "I won't be part of that." My opinion: she said it in the way you say it when you think someone is suggesting something vile.
What happened: Michael and Brittany did address this with Kyle... however, he did not pick up what they were putting down. Even the DR addressed it with Kyle and he didn't get it then either. My opinion: That suggests to me a strong subconscious bias, or intentional behavior.
And yes, everything in the game is overblown... that's because they are in isolation from their usual support systems. In other words, they are human. And I think the person blowing it MOST out of proportion is Kyle himself. Which says a lot.
|
Lilfair
Member
07-09-2003
| Thursday, September 01, 2022 - 9:31 am
Karuuna, your thoughts are also mine. Thanks for articulating it better than I could.
I just got through an unconscious bias seminar and I’m hoping that is Kyle’s issue and not something more sinister.
|
Jimmer
Board Administrator
08-29-2000
| Thursday, September 01, 2022 - 10:20 am
Strategist, I think your perspective on this is very well balanced and fair.
Michael and Brittany saying the "optics look bad" and therefore they won't be a part of it and then holding onto the information until they can use it to benefit their game is far different than telling Kyle what he is proposing or afraid of is bad. But then, Michael is a lawyer and he knows how to use words to his advantage and he clearly saw this as an opportunity to further his game, which was demonstrated both by his comments to Brittany ("I've got something to use against Kyle") and his comments in the DR.
|
Grooch
Member
06-16-2006
| Thursday, September 01, 2022 - 10:32 am
Something I'm missing. Kyle brought it up to Brittney and Michael about an all white alliance. I understand why he didn't bring it up to Alyssa. He was keeping her in the dark about everything. But why didn't he bring it up with Turner?
|
Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Thursday, September 01, 2022 - 10:45 am
Well, Kyle couched his words too, didn't he? He didn't say there WAS a Cookout 2.0, just that there might be, and just in case, they ought to form an opposite alliance. So, was he just "using it for game advantage" also? Oh, yeah.. he was. . And yes, Michael and Brittany made careful responses to his careful plotting. So? Brittany clearly said "I won't be part of that." We don't know what all Michael said... but if someone has a clip of that, please post it! Because people are making a lot of assumptions here!
I don't see what Michael did as nearly as egregious, frankly. I'm not sure why he is getting more blame. Michael tried to dissuade him, the DR tried to dissuade him, Brittany tried to dissuade him. How many breaks does Kyle get here?
But no, Michael's the bad guy because he didn't want to lose out on the money to the guy who had racist *behavior*. Okey dokey.
|
Hwest
Member
07-01-2011
| Thursday, September 01, 2022 - 11:10 am
I think the way the people in the house view the matter is also important. Terrance, Monte and Turner expressed concerns about Michael's timing.
On Wednesday, Aug. 31, Monte told Taylor, “This would have been a perfect opportunity to show where he stands with you and what message he could send to the house by taking you down and having Brittany stay on the block. This could have been an opportunity for Brittany to own up to her mistakes and Michael’s mistakes in holding this information from the house and trying to do an ‘honorable thing’ by waiting two weeks.”
He added, “They even said if Kyle was gone after Dyre Fest, they didn’t see a reason to bring it up … They would have never told us. Michael and Brittany are smart people. When we’ve been in this alliance, they have always been so calculated and so thought out in what they’re doing and why they’re doing it. To me, this doesn’t feel like ‘Oh, it was heavy on our hearts, and we had to share it right before replacement nominees were named.'”
“If there is a chance to take the shot [at Michael] and we don’t take it, there is no way we were winning,” Monte informed Taylor. “[The] jury is going to look at us like, “You just said you are OK with second place.'”
He continued, “I’m hoping that you see it the same way. If you win HOH and I somehow pull off a miracle and beat Michael, I’d hope, and for your game, it’s a resume booster, Michael goes up. [The] jury looks at you as the one who took out the biggest target.”
|
Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Thursday, September 01, 2022 - 11:17 am
Monte was planning on taking Michael out before all this, so that hasn't changed. So is he using this for game play too? Yup.
And yes, their perspective is important, because they've had conversations we didn't get to see. But we also have a different perspective because we've seen conversations and diary rooms that they didn't get to see. So their opinion, while important, doesn't negate our outside looking in opinions.
|
Jimmer
Board Administrator
08-29-2000
| Thursday, September 01, 2022 - 11:21 am
I can only speak for myself, but I don’t think in general that Michael is getting more blame than Kyle and I don’t think he deserves more blame than Kyle.
I just would like Michael more if he handled it differently. With respect to supposition, maybe he did and we haven’t seen it, but we can only go by what we’ve seen. Either that or we can suppose whatever we want.
|
Strategist
Member
07-01-2014
| Thursday, September 01, 2022 - 11:39 am
This is a classic example of systemic bias. If I was to present this as a case study in one of my classes on discrimination, I would not call Kyle, Michael, or Britany racist. They all were "playing the game" and may not have recognized their own implicit bias.
I admit that I don't watch the live feed. From what I have seen and heard so far, none of them truly addressed the issue until it was convenient for them to do so. There are outside forces such as the game that are shaping their behavior. I feel that Kyle did not realize what he was suggesting (at the time), but Michael and Britany did. For me, that is a key difference. However, I do feel that all three feel bad about how it all went down. Perhaps this will be an opportunity for each of them to grow. Maybe we'll learn more on the show this evening.
|
Kminfinity
Member
06-29-2005
| Thursday, September 01, 2022 - 11:44 am
Taran and other podcaster type folks have noted that it is very likely that much more went on that we were never shown - in particular, Production cutting away any time this issue arose. I also think Michael and Brit were cautioned if not outright told to avoid making it an issue at first - exactly when many think they should have initially spoken up. My own gut tells me that Michael may have pushed back at Production at last when he saw Kyle failing to take any hints and then coming back from the split with momentum.
So from my POV, much of the ick factor is in BB's poor handling of the live feeds and their desire to protect Kyle and his game.
|
Jimmer
Board Administrator
08-29-2000
| Thursday, September 01, 2022 - 11:46 am
I agree, Strategist. From what we’ve seen so far, none of them are obviously racist. However, there is systemic and implicit bias and it is being played out in a game where deceit and fear of others is paramount. These people are under a microscope and there is a lot of harsh judging happening on social media, as unfortunately always happens with BB.
|
|
|
|
