| Author |
Message |
Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Saturday, September 09, 2017 - 11:29 am 
As I said, I agree it was wrong, and didn't like it. I just am against calling it bullying in a game where intimidation can be part of the game. It trivializes the kind of real bullying that I see happening to the kids I work with... what they go through every day at school. That's why some of the kids I work with are suicidal. So, I'm quite aware of what real bullying is and its consequences.
Also if it happened to me in the game, I might not say anything either. That's the problem with the game, sometimes you have to not rock the boat.
I was always a Paul fan, but have become less so as the game progresses, and this is the kind of thing that makes me want him to lose.
I'm rooting for Josh now. 
|
Seamonkey
Moderator
09-07-2000
| Saturday, September 09, 2017 - 11:31 am
Playful? With that look on his face?
The actual slap was nothing (other than the demeaning aspects of it), but the intensity and the teamwork by Christmas, who has become Mommy Dearest in terms of her words an manipulation, and Paul, the Dad who cares not for the child other than that the child just obey.
I have come to dislike Christmas, later than most, because I have to see for myself, but in recent days she had showed me how selfish she is, and posing as the strong independent woman, but wanting Paul to take her to fame and fortune.
I will be so relieved when this horrible season is over.
|
Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Saturday, September 09, 2017 - 11:33 am
Seamonkey, you misunderstand.
The actual physical *force* of the slap was at a playful level. That's what I was referring to. Not the entire interaction.
|
Seamonkey
Moderator
09-07-2000
| Saturday, September 09, 2017 - 11:35 am
Game or no game, just personally, I don't think the ends justify the means.
A bluff in poker doesn't equate, IMO, unless it meant that one poker player threatened another and demanded to see the other player's hand and bet or fold for him.
|
Wicked
Member
06-28-2007
| Saturday, September 09, 2017 - 11:44 am
I agree the look on Paul's face was frightening. I wouldn't want to see it coming at me.
Imo...this season is the worst. The bullying was relentless.
I remember when Paul would put Josh up to taunting...Christmas couldn't scoot out fast enough not to miss anything. She has become a big disappointment.
Paul looks in the mirror constantly.I wonder if he see himself as I see him. A little boy with beard,wearing shorts ,suspenders,wearing a floatie standing on his tippy-toes to check himself out. There's a lot of meanness in that little gnome. JMO
|
Lostfan
Member
03-10-2010
| Saturday, September 09, 2017 - 11:50 am
Grooch, exactly, like kicking a puppy
And yes "mommy dearest" is exactly how Xmas acts towards Jason
Imo, because of Jason's emotions in the game he is being used as their personal punching bag used by only Paul and Xmas and Paul's
Paul or Xmas don't treat any other player like they do with Josh. I think it's very sad he can't see it.
Their behavior is disgusting
|
Lardbrick
Member
01-16-2006
| Saturday, September 09, 2017 - 12:03 pm
The definition of "bullying" includes manipulation and the greatest manipulator was Derrick. So if all bullying is prohibited, then sweet little ole Derrick should have been expelled during his season. I don't think you can pick and choose which acts of bullying are acceptable.
I find it ironic that throwing pickle juice/hot sauce in someone's face is not assault but chest bumping is automatic expulsion.
Also I personally felt that Cody's verbal attack on Paul the day he and Jessica were nominated was extremely scary and intimidating. I felt the threats were more frightening than any chest bump but that's my personal opinion. Confrontation with anger scares the crap out of me.
|
Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Saturday, September 09, 2017 - 12:12 pm
A bluff in poker doesn't equate, IMO, unless it meant that one poker player threatened another and demanded to see the other player's hand and get it fold for him.
It is the same thing, it's an analogy. Lying is wrong in real life, but accepted in the game
Intimidation is wrong in real life, but it's part of the BB game.
|
Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Saturday, September 09, 2017 - 12:14 pm
Lardbrick exactly. When you set the game up to manipulate, lie and *whatever* to get your way, then people should expect that others are going to do it.
I don't like it. I don't watch it. I don't approve it. I don't even think it's okay.
But it doesn't mean these people are bullies in real life, or we should even call it bullying. It's a game.
|
Gidget
Member
07-28-2002
| Saturday, September 09, 2017 - 12:21 pm
This question is directed to all but especially Karuuna. Is there a difference between abuse and bullying?
Abuse has been a "popular" concept for a long time now but bullying only became a buzz word in the last few years even though it has always existed. Clearly "we" seem unable to define its parameters. While I think abuse has been so examined that we are much more in agreement when we see it.
|
Lardbrick
Member
01-16-2006
| Saturday, September 09, 2017 - 12:21 pm
Very true Karuuna. I doubt the HGs are as manipulative in real life as they are in the game. And I think to earn $500K, they have to work for it. Look how hard Survivor is. You got some bozos out there hiding food from the others! That's pretty hard core bullying. But there is a cool million at stake. I would hide food for a million dollars.
|
Calimom3
Member
07-12-2007
| Saturday, September 09, 2017 - 12:22 pm
I agree Karuuna! The list is ENDLESS;
Being married/in a relationship yet sleeping in the same bed with someone of the opposite sex, usually a deal-breaker, but ok in the BB house.
Having sex on live tv with someone you met a week ago, not common, except on BB!
Planning a vacation with someone who just lied to your face and sent your best friend out of the running for $500k, unheard of in real life, happens a lot in the BB house!
Etc. Etc. Etc. we see it each season, yet we argue about it each season....hey, WE'D all make great candidates for BB! They go for people who make odd decisions/judgements...
|
Gidget
Member
07-28-2002
| Saturday, September 09, 2017 - 12:25 pm
Also I should have clarified I posted the link for the video. I stopped in my tracks when I read the blackface claim. Just shows you how easily misinformation spreads with social media.
|
Lazylu
Member
04-09-2010
| Saturday, September 09, 2017 - 12:29 pm
Where is the outrage about Alex hitting Jason constantly? He winched at some of the hits.
|
Calimom3
Member
07-12-2007
| Saturday, September 09, 2017 - 12:32 pm
Same with Jess "putting fingers up others' rears...". They failed to show the whole group of willing participants who were all doing it to each other as a game... they didn't do it to those who didn't want to participate!
|
Gidget
Member
07-28-2002
| Saturday, September 09, 2017 - 12:34 pm
Just a thought Lazylu, maybe the Maven and Jalex dynamic was different because we perceive Jason and Matt as more than capable of defending themselves and could have made the foolishness stop at any time.
On the other hand many of us characterize Josh as that defenseless puppy which he may well be.
|
Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Saturday, September 09, 2017 - 12:38 pm
This question is directed to all but especially Karuuna. Is there a difference between abuse and bullying?
My points here are about the BB house, where people are "playing a game" and the point is to win. Is there a line? BB draws it at physical danger to another. That's it.
Intimidation, lying, verbal abuse, harassment, throwing drinks in each other's face, fake relationships, etc, etc, etc, - whatever the behavior, people use their own personal metrics and experiences and their reaction to these behaviors (one is okay and one is not) is emotional (in most cases), not logical in terms of the rules of the game (such as they are).
It's the same for the people in the game. They each personally have to decide how far they will, or won't, go in order to win.
But NONE of that is a measure of whether they are bullies, or liars or manipulators in real life. IMO, it's not fair to judge them for performing within the games parameters.
Abuse/bullying out here in the real world is a different thing. I work with kids who have been bullied almost literally to death. Sometimes it's physical, but most often it is not. It is taunting, mercilessly making fun of someone, stealing from them, intimidation, and very aggressive. It is constant and unrelenting. It is not done for ANY goal other than to harm the other person. That's bullying.
It's very real, and very pervasive. I suppose that's why it bothers me when people say that what goes on in a game where people are frequently role playing to get ahead is "bullying." It trivializes what goes in real life, every day.
|
Calimom3
Member
07-12-2007
| Saturday, September 09, 2017 - 12:40 pm
There has been a LOT of outrage on here about Alex hitting Jason... I think if it bothered Jason even a little, he was close enough to Alex to tell her to knock it off, they had that kind of friendship. Even behind her back, he told Kevin how much he "adores that girl," and how she has the same fire as his wife... I hope he settles the issue once he's out. He would HATE to be viewed as a "victim." He gets beat up by BULLS for a living, he's had broken bones. I don't think a little 5-foot woman could ever "harm" him to a point where he needed our outrage/pity. Now ME, on the other hand, I would definitely stop her after the first or second time, I personally HATE that kind of stuff! We are treated the way allow others to treat us!
|
Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Saturday, September 09, 2017 - 12:42 pm
Just shows you how easily misinformation spreads with social media.
Yes! People see these things through their own lenses. One will flinch at the way Matt and Raven interacted, another won't care. Another will find Jessica's poking horribly offensive, others will see it in the context of the game.
I just think it's important to give these folks the benefit of the doubt because of the unique circumstances, the context, of the game.
It's one thing to think that you don't like the way Paul is playing the game, via intimidation and manipulation. It's quite another to call him a bully.
They have ALL engaged in that kind of behavior when it works for them in the game. And there aren't the normal societal checks and balances. For example, if someone is horrifically mean to you in the game, you have to be careful about speaking up, because you might need them as an ally.
It's a crazy situation, and not normative.
|
Lazylu
Member
04-09-2010
| Saturday, September 09, 2017 - 12:43 pm
Josh is not a defenseless puppy, he is an adult. Maybe the big difference is everything Paul does is wrong because some don't like him.
|
Gidget
Member
07-28-2002
| Saturday, September 09, 2017 - 12:47 pm
So from what you just said about real life (which is why I directed the question to you) there really is a gray line between abuse and bullying?
I agree that it is unfair to assume these people are like this in their everyday lives. And Calimom3 gave some good examples upthread 12:22 and 12:32. But on the other hand people were arguing that Jason's rape scenario indicated someone who has thought such things before (outside).
So I am really confused.
|
Gidget
Member
07-28-2002
| Saturday, September 09, 2017 - 12:51 pm
Whether or not Josh is defenseless, Karuuna makes a good point that if you do defend yourself in that house you may lose a future needed ally or worse.
|
Ark
Member
07-09-2001
| Saturday, September 09, 2017 - 12:53 pm
But NONE of that is a measure of whether they are bullies, or liars or manipulators in real life. IMO, it's not fair to judge them for performing within the games parameters.
Exactly as Jason pointed out in his interview with etcanada.com. He talked badly about Kevin in order to gt in deeper with Paul and Alex. I don't believe he would have done or said most of the things he did in the house outside of the house. He was just trying to better himself in the game.
|
Karuuna
Board Administrator
08-30-2000
| Saturday, September 09, 2017 - 12:54 pm
Gidget, I think most people in the field call it bullying when it's between kids, and abuse between adults, or from an adult to a child.
There is no hard and fast line. The term bullying has just become used more often these days.
As for Jason's scenario, he doesn't have to have thought them before. All he has to do is watch TV or movies. That scenario is not that rare. I do think some of our shows and movies have made people find those things less horrific *in thought*, but not necessarily in action. I'm sure if Jason thought about it actually happening, he would be horrified also.
But seeing violence constantly in "pretend" mode, leads to a comfort talking about them in "pretend" mode as well.
Again, I will say it's wrong, but you have to view these things in context - the way it was said, the reason it was said, and the character/behavior of the person saying it.
|
Calimom3
Member
07-12-2007
| Saturday, September 09, 2017 - 1:01 pm
Gidget, I have VERY dark thoughts/ideas which I would NEVER act upon. My family/friends tease me because when I find a spider indoors or a bee flopping in the pool, I rescue them and set them free. I wait for flies to go to the screen door, then gently open it so they fly out. That being said, I am an avid reader/watcher of anything to do with serial killers. Their mindset baffles/terrorizes/disgusts me to point where I want to know WHY/HOW any human could do such things (I still haven't found answers!). Whenever the subject of "the perfect crime" comes up, people often say they are glad I use my ideas for good rather than evil...they KNOW I could never act upon my thoughts!
|
|
