Red Room Sessions Falsified

The ClubHouse: The Game II - Discussions: Game II Discussions: Red Room Sessions Falsified
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Archive through February 04, 2001 25   02/04 04:10pm

Kady99

Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 02:54 pm Click here to edit this post

Thank you Lance,
You spent alot of time doing that. I totally agree with your conclusions. I know Gator adds commentary, but it makes it seem realistic. To Gator, Hostess1, Hostess2, Twinkie, and anybody else that is working on the game--Ya'll are doing a great job and many of us appreciate it. :) :)

Ocean_Islands

Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 03:01 pm Click here to edit this post

Thanks for the message Maire.

The issue has now changed.

"...love, companionship, a sense of belonging..." that's a tall order.

I'm simply trying to understand why, when the game players were instructed to send emails to the Interrogator for red room postings, my most informative, longest message was discarded.

Maire

Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 03:06 pm Click here to edit this post

I understand your frustration in wanting to understand why it wasn't included. Perhaps that question is best answered by Interrogator alone.

Ocean_Islands

Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 03:11 pm Click here to edit this post

I couldn't agree more.

Lancecrossfire

Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 03:13 pm Click here to edit this post

Time out! Ocean, you write:

"Really? Don't you think that withholding an entire two page email leaves some information out? This is where I answered questions such as:"

I agree it wasn't included--no question of that. HOWEVER, to say that it was withheld may cause others to feel Gator did that on purpose. I hope you wouldn't be trying to say that it was intentional without PROOF. Other possibilities--he didn't get it or it was an honest mistake to not include it.

IF (notice I'm saying if) you are to indicate it is was intentional withholding, please provide proof. Have you contacted Gator so see if he got the message? Have you asked him if it was done intentionally if he did get it?? If anyone else is concerned of it being intentional (anyone other than Ocean)

I'll repeat myself again (and will do so until it's complied with):

Feel free to provide proof of accusations. Seems if it's an expectation of one person to be able to do so, it damn well better be an expectation of everyone.

Oh, notice that he got one you may have forgotten to include (unless he did indeed make that whole post up??) Did you forget to include it, or did you not ever create that one????

Ocean_Islands

Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 03:23 pm Click here to edit this post

He didn't forget to include it.

I have no proof. Mistakes do happen, it's true.

It's hard to misplace a two-page email.

Especially one that was the subject of an email from Interrogator to Digilady; and from Digilady to myself.

As usual you've covered all the ground, Lance; I do appreciate that.

The one not included was overlooked by me in cutting and pasting from my sent box.

Lancecrossfire

Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 03:35 pm Click here to edit this post

Ocean, you may have stumbled on a possble solution to your concern by the last sentence of your post:

"The one not included was overlooked by me in cutting and pasting from my sent box."

A 1 letter message looks the same as a 100 page message when it's a message indicater in your in box (or sent box). Again, 1 possibility--also may not have gotten it. That goes along with the issue of intentional. I hope you ask Gator before continuing with this.

Ocean_Islands

Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 03:47 pm Click here to edit this post

I knew you would jump on that.

I don't think so. Are you so blind to intent?

Flint's intent is clear with how he has depicted me; which you, strangely, did not address in your analysis. I'm not convinced you understand what I am addressing (in addition to the missing email).

I quote Flint referring to me: "pouts" "brooding" "snorts derisively" "skulks" "grumbles" "stares blankly" "sobbing".

Lancecrossfire

Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 04:09 pm Click here to edit this post

I did address it Ocean:

I wrote:

"In following the game closely, having read the RR each day, then going through and reading the two prints (RR and Oceans), I walk away feeling that what Ocean was saying (what I got out of his messages) was not changes from what Gator posted in the RR section (what I got out of those posts)."

AND I wrote:

"I'm not seeing anything that makes me think less of a gamer in terms of their status of the game or the status I consider them as a poster in general. I enjoy the additions Gator makes, as they add humor and give a presence of them actually being in a RR."

No, I don't feel I'm blind to his intent. You asked for my evaluation, and I provided it. Thanks for ignoring it just because it didn't agree with what you are saying.

I was objective, covering all bases I could by looking at what both of you have written (factual), and made a call as to how I saw it, as you asked.

You wrote in your original request:

"Was this an honest representation?"

To that I did indeed answer yes, that I thought it was. That is not to say a post got left out--I feel you were represented as you were in the game by what was posted. There was never a mention of not providing RR posts like he did to Merlin.

He referred to others using those same terms. As well as others I included but you left out.

I'll repeat myself again:

"Feel free to provide proof of accusations. Seems if it's an expectation of one person to be able to do so, it damn well better be an expectation of everyone."

So far this has not been done, and until Gator is spoken to by you, it won't be accomplished.

Twiggyish

Sunday, February 04, 2001 - 04:10 pm Click here to edit this post

I think Gator owes Ocean an explanation as to why important interviews were not posted. (In the light of fairness to this game and to the other players). Instead of stubborn denial coming from others, I think it is important this be straightened out. During the time when no posts were showing in the RR, Ocean was accused of pouting and other things, as well. This would give the indication of poor sportsmanship..which we see now is not true.

Adven, you are 100% correct! I know now what you meant!

Lance, you did a splendid job!

Juju, you are correct in rereading your posts, as well. ( I think some people based their opinions on the RR interviews)

Bamagirl

Monday, February 05, 2001 - 07:31 am Click here to edit this post

I for one do read RRs each day...and I know this is just a game...but I honestly felt the RRs were the voice of the game player!!!

The RRs also play apart in how I vote...so if things are said (which the player did not say) I do feel it is unfair to the game player. (JMO)

I know this takes a lot of time for all to do...so I give credit to those that spend so much time on it!! (Thank You :))

We want the players to open up...share parts of their lives for us to watch...even if the RRs are edit for fun...they still need to be real!

Twiggyish

Monday, February 05, 2001 - 07:59 am Click here to edit this post

Right!

Interrogator

Monday, February 05, 2001 - 10:18 am Click here to edit this post

I guess I should start this off by apologizing to Digilady for waiting so long to respond to the BS surrounding OceanIslands. Lets see, which of the accusations to deal with first.

When I was portraying someone in a way that could be considered "out of character" or had a question arise from a Red Room reply they made, I contacted them. Making Spammie look like a lush when she doesn't drink alcohol, an added question about the movie Sugar and Spice that I had for Juju (In fact she got miffed because she took time out from a puzzle to reply), when I was taking OI's talk of a pharmaceutical company and making drug jokes AND when I had an extra question arising out of a RR response of his. In both cases he never replied,

At that time there were a lot of emails he never replied to. The last email received from him actually replying to questions sent in by me, before the 28th of January, was on Jan 20th. They were posted the 21st. In that 8 day period OI did send in emails, as can be seen by the Red Room posts from that time. Ones which talked about the work of his "labs", and letting us know that he ate bad curry. None of them answered emails he had been sent by me about the missing questions. Nor did he reply to a question about using the drug jokes. Considering that he was emailing, and never once expressed any concern over the use of the drug skit, I took that to mean he didn't care. According to him when I talked to him last night, he doesn't remember being asked. Of course, he also claimed that he doesn't remember seeing my emails asking where his response to the questions was. At first he recalled Digilady's email asking him about the missing questions, but later said he sent them in before she emailed him. (Which would beg a question on who the person is in the email who "informed" him that he had not answered some Red Room emails. If it wasn't me, and it wasn't Digilady, that would mean he had outside contact about the game? His "special friend" perhaps?)

Then we have the "added/forged" question. As mentioned above, if a question arose while reading a Red Room email, I did contact the person involved to get their answer. Once again, in OI's case no answer was forthcoming. Hence the comment that sometimes silence is an answer. Once again, he didn't remember this email. His only response was that I shouldn't have used it without hearing from him. Which ignores the problem that existed with him actually replying to ANY email. If an email is sent out, and does not bounce back, I assume the person received it. Based on that, if a person sends emails after that and does not complain about something, I will assume they have no problem with it.

Then we come to the missing post accusation. Initially he just complained about the RR editing (after so speedily going through every RR) so he posted his original emails. Then Lance did a long analysis and comparison and noticed one of his emails was missing from RR to which ocean replied that he hadn't even noticed that. Then THAT became the focus of his complaint. Which is interesting since he said he didn't even notice it missing when he first started complaining.

On January 28th, I had Digilady contact him about replying to Red Room emails, since he wasn't replying to ANY of my messages since January 20th. THEN and only then did he actually send the email in. Seeing as his answers were 8 days late, and some of his responses were for questions he had already addressed in some way, I didn't use them. Why? First off, some of them would have been too out of date. He had the opportunity to answer them in a timely fashion, and didn't. Yet he DID receive them in the email (or why would he have had them to answer) as everyone else did. Add to that, the time to contrast them with the other replies had passed, and we were already into Nomination/Banishment time. I also figured I wouldn't make him look like a too much of a slacker. (Of course you KNOW that if I had posted them, he would be complaining right now that they made him look like a slacker. :) ) So I made the decision not to use it. That is the tale of the missing Red Room. It was eight days late.

Did I add emotions into ANY post that he didn't put there? To a degree, of course! Just like I did to EVERYONE's from Game 1 on. The feelings put in were based on a feeling for how he was acting in the game, chats, and emails. What are we supposed to read into his actions? As soon as he was nominated he became very sullen and brooding. When he was banished he didn't flee, he just stayed there saying nothing, until AFTER Elitist left. Then he spoke up, somewhat. Whether he meant his posts/actions to come across like that or not they did. To me, and many others.

I don't know if I should have expected to resolve anything by talking to him one on one last night. Naively, I suppose I did. However, that was because I was expecting to be talking to a rational person. Having seen the way he has been since being nominated, I guess I should have known better. He doesn't remember seeing any emails between Jan 20th and 28th. At first the email from Digilady is why he emailed me, then it wasn't. It didn't strike him as strange that he received no emails IF he never saw any? Especially considering people not mailing was mentioned in chats. He didn't recall being told in email, or chat, that he could have a "live" Red Room. He doesn't believe that he was voted out because of the Red Rooms, but he does believe they affected him. Nothing is his fault. At times I felt like I was talking to myself.

What did I get out of the discussion? OI just doesn't want to accept the fact he lost. He seems to feel the need to blame someone, anyone, other than himself. At first it was Elitist's fault for winning immunity. Then it was Digilady's fault for him (OI) not winning immunity. Then it was the fault of the Red Rooms being edited and added to. Then it was because of the "missing" RR post. Then, last night, he started blaming it on the "live" Red Room that I did with Elitist, which wasn't fair because no one else got to do them.

Interesting enough, when you consider the fact that Guruchaz has done 2, and Azriel 1. using that logic, I am surprised he hasn't changed it to there being a conspiracy to make Guruchaz win. Or better yet, to make Azriel, Elitist, and Guruchaz the final three. Conspiracy theorists of the world, unite!

If something doesn't agree with his line of thought, or view of reality, it is conveniently forgotten. Not remembering about the live RR's wasn't his fault. HE never saw it when it was mentioned in email or chat that you could do a live Red Room. His not seeing or hearing something seems be a recurring theme. That is not his fault. It is MY fault that he didn't respond to email. Everyone is at fault, except OceanIslands.

OI lost. I can understand his being upset over it, it is just a human reaction. I can even understand his need to blame anyone but himself for the loss. But his use of innuendoes and half-truths doesn't make him look good. The fact that he stumbled about focusing on first one person, then another to try and prove he lost because of chicanery is sad to see. Of course, it couldn't just be because of him, or the choices people had? There had to be some insidious force at work against him. (Insert Darth Vader breathing here.) If there isn't it means he would have to face some revelations. Like people nominating him because they wanted to, or as part of a strategy, not being Mr. Popularity, people voting on him of their own free will, based on seeing him IN the game in total.

Even while talking with him, his insistence on some sort of conspiracy being at work was disturbing. When I mentioned that just about everyone on the board knows that I have been staying away from it (it has been over 4 weeks since I posted or read the boards except for RR stuff), although some people send me excerpts (even when I tell them not to.); he IMMEDIATELY switched into conspiracy mode. Telling me that they are only sending me what THEY want me to see, and implying they are misleading me about things. What things? Reality? Or some frickin GAME on the internet that some people evidently take WAY too seriously?

Hopefully he works through his problem sooner than later, it is sad to see someone act out like this. Just like it is sad to see some people jump on a bandwagon because they have an axe of some sort to grind against Digilady. And no, before this spawns another conspiracy theory, I don't think that everyone who had something to say on the issue did it for a petty reason. People only heard one side of it, which left some stuff out, and based their comments on that. Unfortunately, I had assumed I was dealing with someone who was somewhat rational, so I figured any problems would either simply end after some initial bitching, or be talked away. After actually talking with OI last night, I see that error. Which is why I decided to actually post something, and address it to those who wanted to know what happened, rather than someone who has no care to hear what happened unless it fits his version of reality, or those who jumped onto his bandwagon with some axe to grind against digilady. Based on how OI, and the axe grinders have acted, I expect one of two things to happen in regards to them. Either it will end the current round of BS and he will simply find someone else to blame so he doesn't have accept any responsibility. Or he will try to twist/skew things to continue the BS along this vein. I lean more towards expecting the latter than the former.

Digilady

Monday, February 05, 2001 - 10:26 am Click here to edit this post

No need for an apology to me, Gator. Tis others who owe you an apology, me included. For landing you in this mess in the first place by begging you to to Gator again.

Thanks for being Gator, the very best Gator of them all!

Soeur

Monday, February 05, 2001 - 10:50 am Click here to edit this post

I have spent a lot of time in the chat room as the happy s-logger. While hanging around waiting for digi's hampsters to solve puzzles and have their one-on-one's many hours have been spent in #gamediscuss. My reliable companions there are Hostess1, Hostess2 and Gator; along with other interested observers. Quite honestly, it has been a terrific place to spend time. In all that time I have never witnessed one of these people indicating any bias towards any player in the game and a lot of their time has been spent discussing how to ensure fairness, a positive atomosphere and by what means to resolve the conflicts which inevitably are expected to arise from an endeavour like this. Believe me, I would not be voluntarily spending huge chunks of time in a place where goodwill was not the dominant component of the atmosphere. This is a very good place and the above are very good people. Anyone who wants to find for themselves should come to chat...

Rollerboy

Monday, February 05, 2001 - 11:00 am Click here to edit this post

In my opinion, I haven't seen so much made out of nothing since God created the universe. Kudos to Lance and the Gator for what must have been a huge effort. It's impossible to prove a negative, but I'm more than satisfied with their analysis/explaination of what transpired.

Noslonna

Monday, February 05, 2001 - 11:17 am Click here to edit this post

Gator and Digilady deserve a lot of thanks for all the work and time they have been putting into this Game for the enjoyment of all. They have been fair and honest. Unfounded accusations and innuendo of "secrets, favoritism and deceptions" only cause a negative atmosphere instead of a pleasant experience. There are no conspiracies from the people running the Game.

~A Big Thankyou to Interrogator and Hostess1~

Lancecrossfire

Monday, February 05, 2001 - 11:18 am Click here to edit this post

Thanks Rollerboy. My task was fairly easy--to compare messages. For me, I think the credit goes to Gator. He takes e-mail messages that don't always have a lot of life to them (some do though), and adds his humor and imagination that allows the gamers to seem like they are in a RR setting, with mannerisms and a certain energy that wouldn't exist from just the e-mails. At least for me this was very true in Game I. I enjoyed reading what he had done with my messages to him.

Personally I enjoy every RR he has done this time around--and appreciate the time he's put into this game.

Mlady

Monday, February 05, 2001 - 11:57 am Click here to edit this post

Certainly answered a lot of my thoughts and questions on all of this. Thanks for the information, as it explains a lot of what I certainly wondered about.

Norwican

Monday, February 05, 2001 - 12:23 pm Click here to edit this post

Gator's humorous comments are great... keep up the good work

Twiggyish

Monday, February 05, 2001 - 04:36 pm Click here to edit this post

I have nothing against Digi or Nos. I don't know how they keep up with everything! In all fairness, I think you answered a lot of questions for me, too. It is very admirable of you to post this to us.
Although, I don't agree about OI (no offense) I do see how this could be misunderstood.


Thank you.

Tukuul

Monday, February 05, 2001 - 04:47 pm Click here to edit this post

Oh, bite a pillow you whiney babies.

Oceans may roar, but Islands sink with the rising tide.

LOL!

Twiggyish

Monday, February 05, 2001 - 05:01 pm Click here to edit this post

Sticking tongue out at Tuk!! pfffftttt Who here is a whiney baby?? ..lol

Ocean_Islands

Monday, February 05, 2001 - 05:24 pm Click here to edit this post

Just a short response.

I think I have enough history on this board to prove that I am not an irrational conspiracy theorist. I wish I were -- life would be a lot more exciting!

Do you actually think I would not respond to an email that says, "Do you mind if I portray you as a drug addict?"

That's beyond ridiculous. There was no email. I've looked at them all.

Let me also add, that I didn't need anyone to tell me to respond to the red rooms, because they had been staring me in the face every day since I got them and I would have responded earlier if I had not been sick.

And if you're making such a big deal about having received this email upon 'Digi's' prompting, WHY was it not posted for the viewers?

You didn't post them so as not to make me look like a slacker? Then why did you ask me for them?

And why did I send them if I thought they'd make me look bad?

It's true I owe my discovery to Lance's analysis and for that I thank him very much. There are obviously a lot of emails, and I had not done such a word by word or even email by email comparison.

But I appreciate your addressing the issue on the board, Flint, very much. I thank you for that.

This board is about discussion, and if we are discussing in a private chat room, others cannot participate.

Misslibra

Monday, February 05, 2001 - 06:17 pm Click here to edit this post

I'm glad you and Ocean had a talk. But I take from what you said it didn't do a lot of good for you two to discuss the situation ? It's good to hear your side of the story though.

My point was from my earlier post was that if one of the BG's has a complaint no matter how small someone else see it, to that person it means something, and shouldn't be swept under the rug, by calling the person or BG's in this case whinny or any of the other comments I have heard some people say. To me that's like telling a person what you have to say don't mean anything.

And like I said before my RedRooms needed ... well they actually needed prayer if you want to know the truth ... LOL So I have no complaints about my RR's editing at all. Now Gator one disatisfied costumer out of ten ain't bad. But did you guys honestly think that everyone would walk away from the game with no complaints at all ? Mahahahahahah !! In a perfect world yes, but we haven't gotten there yet.

Now unless some kind of devious things were going on behind our backs that I have no knowlege of. You, Digi, and Nos were all fair to me, and I have no complaints with the Game.