Archive through October 26, 2000
The ClubHouse: The Game - Discussion Room: General :
Do you believe in Synchronicity?:
Archive through October 26, 2000
Ocean_Islands | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 10:57 am  I think the point is that you were smashed silly drunk! |
Karuuna | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 11:05 am  I'm off to lunch, but just a few quick notes: Ocean, I disagree that wheels and beads are not praying -- in fact, the words that go with them are prayers to the universe, generally to heal suffering. They are repetitive, petitionary and intercessory, so that fits my definition of prayer. Maybe you define it differently? Elitist -- are you a hard core materialist? (in terms of explanatory theories, not in acquiring stuff, but you can answer both if you like!)
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Elitist | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 11:06 am  No, I have been smashed silly drunk and definitely know the difference. We weren't really impaired at all. And I have never done any type of drug, so it wasn't a bit of the funny weed or a tab of something slipped into my RC Cola. It was pretty much the power of suggestion due to our conversation and a timely rise of a very red moon (the one in the sky). |
Ocean_Islands | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 11:08 am  prayer Pronunciation: 'prar, 'prer Function: noun Usage: often attributive Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French preiere, from Medieval Latin precaria, from Latin, feminine of precarius obtained by entreaty, from prec-, prex Date: 14th century 1 a (1) : an address (as a petition) to God or a god in word or thought <said a prayer for the success of the voyage> (2) : a set order of words used in praying b : an earnest request or wish 2 : the act or practice of praying to God or a god <kneeling in prayer> 3 : a religious service consisting chiefly of prayers -- often used in plural 4 : something prayed for 5 : a slight chance <haven't got a prayer> |
Elitist | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 11:24 am  Karuuna, I don't think so - of course it depends on which face you are talking to. I am a true Gemini. One of the reasons I brought up the left/right brain thing earlier is that I took those tests to find out which one predominates and whether you perceive things visually or auditorially. I am smack dab in the center, totally balanced as to left/right, sight/hearing. Makes for an interesting combination. I think one thing it does is allow me to totally believe two completely contradictory things. Thus I totally believe in God, UFOs, ESP, spirits, and also totally reject them. It is a fun life. I was also raised in an extremely conservative religious environment and an environment that stressed education and learning. These dualities persisted throughout my education, always focusing on science on one hand and religion on the other, to the point that I attended a church affiliated university (a Christian university if you will). Graduate school, however, pretty much ruined me. I believe the spiritual side of a person is just as important as the intellectual, emotional, and physical side, and that to be a whole human you must address and grow all sides. But being so engrossed in religion most of my life, I have seen too much chicanery to accept everything I see when it comes to religion and what people profess on the spiritual side (I guess that is true for the intellectual, emotional, and physical sides too). So I guess the answer to your question is yes and no. Now I have spilled my heart out. |
Whit4you | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 11:36 am  I'd like to join this thread but first a disclaimer: ----------- Anything I say here is just my thoughts, I don't even have a highschool diploma - so I'm not pretending to know more then *anyone* else in this thread. That being said I'd like to at least give my take on some of these posts. end disclaimer -------------- First on the question, that I didn't see answered here "Does anything beyond coincidence exsist?" I have to say most definately, and one example would be the human brain. My brain can not concieve of an infinite number of coincidences happening to create the human brain. (next on coincidence) Every second trillions of combinations of things are happening, that have never happened before. Anything our brain can concieve of happening could just as easily happen tommorrow, as it could 5 trillion years FROM now. Trying to prove something exsists - that we have not yet found an explination for, does not mean it does not exsist. It just means WE have not found an explination for it, or scientific evidence of it. The problem I think is we as a society (and perhaps all societies before us?) believe we NOW have the tools to clearly understand the things around us. We are now using an insignificant fraction of our brains, with no measurable increase in capacity as there was 200 years ago. We doubt that Synchronicity exsists because we can't concieve of it being anything more then coincidence and have no proof otherwise. It's really no different then people concieving 200 years ago about getting across the ocean in just a few hours. Or being able to "talk" to someone 200 miles away. You'll say - but those events happened because of simple scientifically explained pre-exsisting things (such as elercity) - but your fooling yourself if you think we've even found a fraction of pre-exsisting things. We've really just begun. (making this post short, but I have a million things to say LOL) |
Ocean_Islands | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 11:38 am  Thanks for telling us all that history -- but it's not your heart! Your history can only define you if you let it. Some of our greatest thinkers have traced the fallacy of body/mind duality to the studies of St. Augustine in the Dark Ages, and beyond that to some Greek philosophies encompassing the ideal as explored in Platonic writings. There also exists the Chinese yin/yang Tao te Ching philosophy of wholeness/duality. Mind could be split in two but it is a fact that it is all part of an indivisible whole. The two halves aspect of it is an illusion. |
Adven39 | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 11:42 am  Whit, this is one thread where length isn't as much of an issue. We've all gotten a little wordy at one time or another in this one. Fire away. |
Wink | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 11:47 am  Half of my mind wants to stay here and absorb all this but the other half is screaming to get the hell out of this thread. Unfortunately most of this dicussion is way over both my heads!!! |
Elitist | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 11:48 am  Ocean - I think you lost me on that one. There is the yin and yang and all that, and it is an indivisible whole (unless you cut the connection between the two halves). My point was that in most people one side of the brain or the other dominate their thinking or how they think (I believe this is a well accepted fact, tell me if I am wrong). In mine there is no domination, so I am a lot more confused than most people. And also my heart tells me two things - I believe it - NO WAIT I don't - Yes you do - Shut up its my turn... |
Ocean_Islands | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 12:04 pm  I'm a true Gemini also so I know how you feel. Part of that 'chicanery' you mention is prayer wheels. These are an organised religion constructions which tells those believers that each time the prayer wheel (which is a turning construction like a top or a spinning cylinder) spins, the prayers are being said. But prayer is a word or a thought, according to the definition posted above. Anyway. Let's all hope there are more meaningful coincidences in our lives and we will know how to interpret them when they occur. I think Eli, that the challenge for someone like you is to take a permanent stance instead of flitting from one to the next and risk being accused of mercurial fluidity as so many Geminis are. |
Whit4you | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 12:07 pm  I think another example - of something that exsists that we have yet to fully understand or explain would be "instinct" - Take ants for example and how something with a brain smaller thn this dot -> . <-- appears to *understand* things. Instinct. It does exsist. Just as Instinct exsists so might syncrhonicity. There is a point where coincidence becomes to much of a coincidence to TRUELY be a coincidence - and in one example becomes Instinct. The thousands/millions of things an ant/ knows and understands are not a coincidence. Instinct is one of those things that can not be explained do to coincidence. And just as we can not explain Instinct yet it exsists, the same may hold true for Syncronicity. (I hope someone here grasps what I am saying hard to say the thousand thoughts in my mind in 1000 words or less hehe ) |
Elitist | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 12:26 pm  I finally tracked down some info on the prayer study. Of course it is a critical essay on the study and Larry Dossey's use of it as the cornerstone of his teachings. http://www.hcrc.org/contrib/posner/byrd.html As I read it (discounting the somewhat picky point the guy makes about how much unknown prayer was going on) the study isn't that earth shaking. Apparently there was some statistically significant difference in the control and test group in 6 areas out of 29. There is some question whether these 6 areas were independent of each other (in other words if one changed the others always would also). It is also interesting to note that there was no difference between the groups in mortality or time within the hospital. And finally, this study is not the first of its type. Apparently 3 previous studies pretty much said there was no difference in groups that were prayed for or not. Oh yeah, and this was a strictly Christian study, so all you other religions are pretty much out of luck (sorry, couldn't resist). So unless there are more studies like this that validate the results (or hopefully show better results) I remain unconvinced. |
Elitist | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 12:29 pm  Whit - Use more than a 1,000 words, I do. |
Karuuna | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 12:51 pm  Well, I take a run and have some lunch, and find that you've all been in here running away as well! And nary a post on any other thread? Hmmmm... At any rate, thanks for the definitions, Ocean. I was a Buddhist for some time, perhaps mostly as as a rebellion against a rather hypocritical Christian upbringing -- nevertheless I did learn a few things from it! Sects of Buddhism differ at least as much and perhaps more than all the various permutations of Christianity, and the teachings I followed stressed prayer as words/thoughts in the form of repetitive sets of words. Those who used prayer wheels, used them as a reminder to silently repeat a particular prayer. I have to admit in practice they used it as sort of a shorthand to bring the prayer to mind again. Whether they repeated each word slowly and thoughtfully I can't say. Reminds me of just how fast I could say the little ditty we said at mealtimes to ask for blessing on our food when I was growing up! At any rate, I think you're being a tad unfair by characterizing them dismissively as chicanery. I think it depends on how you use it, as some kind of magical talisman or as a symbol for bringing you back to mindfulness and compassion for all those who suffer. IMHO. |
Wcv63 | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 12:52 pm  Speed bump. |
Ocean_Islands | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 12:58 pm  Yes Ka I agree, chicanery is in your approach, just like the stations of the cross can be an opportunity for prayer and veneration or a millstone around your neck that will send you to hell if you don't perform them. |
Karuuna | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 01:01 pm  Elitist - thanks for your response, and what a nice heart you've shared! In a way, I can identify with your mind-split. I totally rejected all forms of spirituality for a great part of my life. I followed science to the exclusion of all else, and if something couldn't be proven to me, I rejected it. Then I had one of those life-altering experiences (synchronistic? coincidence? divine intervention? hallucination?) that wasn't so easily explained scientifically. It was my quest to understand that that led me to studying philosophy, world faith traditions as well as science, both in concert and as opposed to each other. I confess the part of me that *wants* everything to be nice and neat is hoping to find a way to integrate the two. So after studying the two disciplines as almost completely distinct from each, I've been looking more at those thinkers that have "interesting" ways of combining the two -- The Tao of Physics, etc. The best I can say is that I've become a more balanced person, if a less fully integrated one! |
Karuuna | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 01:25 pm  <<With that type of background you have to give us a good long post on looking at synchronicity, prayer, spirits, deja vu, etc. from the point of view that they are not so much physical phenomena as they are the mysterious workings of the human brain. >> Elitist, you are making me work! Actually, I love this stuff, I'm just not sure I'm as smart as I used to be. I do love reading about it and contemplating these things! I don't think I'll make this long tho, I'll just throw some stuff out there, and generate some discussion, I hope! To be honest, I go back and forth on this question. Synchronicity? Prayer? Spirits? Angels? Are they real? Or are they just attempts by insecure humans to make meaning out of their lives? Ask me one day and I'll swear they're real (at least some of them), ask me another and I'll say "bunk", prove it to me! Mostly I think people don't make meaning for their lives, they make meaningless. What I mean by that is they don't look critically at what they think and what they know. For the most part I don't think they even distinguish between "thinking" something and "knowing" something. That sounds like a particularly negative view of humankind, but I don't mean it with any harsh judgment, I just mean it to say that most folks are content with that level of examination of life. They don't question or challenge what they think/know, to them it's all the same. I think it, I know it, and that's all I need. In many ways, I envy that position! I'll roll these things around in my mind for hours, never knowing what I "know" for sure, and what's just my opinion! But in more in line of your comment above, I think there are darn good scientific explanations for much of what we think is more appropriately attributed to soul or spirit. I even read recently that how spiritual you are is related to a particular area of the brain and its size and activity level relevant to other like areas. There wasn't enough in the study to determine whether that was a genetic predisposition or whether that was a result of environment/behavior. But I found it pretty fascinating! Of course that very question (is it genes or is it environment) is pretty silly in itself -- it asks an either/or question of something that's better understood as a continuum, and an interaction. Ultimately, I think there's still so much we don't know, to come down harshly on one side or the other -- it's all brain or it's all soul/spirit. My best guess is that like the genes/environment question, brain and spirit exist on some kind of interactive, changing continuum as well. Ultimately, for ME, it comes down to how you choose to live your life. That is assuming we really have choice and we're not all just some biological machines living out whatever it is that our genes interacting with our habitat determine us to be! (See how I can play both sides of this? Is Dr Dude around?) For me, believing that I have choice, and believing spirit/soul/something exists calls me to be a better person. Not out of some fear of hell or retribution, but some belief that somehow it all matters. I live my life *as if* synchronicity exists, because it forces me to be more consciously aware of the things that are happening in my life, and therefore forces me to continuely examine my life, and hopefully to grow thru that process. Did I say I was going to make this short? LOL! |
Karuuna | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 01:27 pm  WCV -- u better thru another speed bump in there to slow me down. Wait? Didn't I extract a promise from you to drag my sorry butt out of here if I showed up again?  |
Wcv63 | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 02:33 pm  Ahh that you did Karuuna...thought the speed bump would remind you that you were playing on the freeway! |
Wcv63 | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 03:18 pm  <Venturing out into traffic....looking both ways> I think what it all boils down to is faith vs science. If you have faith in God, religion, angels etc., then you don't have to have anything proven and it gives people a higher power to lean on. My father, God Bless him, is an atheist. He is scientifically driven in every aspect of his life. If it doesn't have a scientific explanation then he believes it to be a load of crap (his words). I don't argue with him (what's the point?) but I believe that God has touched my life in many ways. I can't prove it. But neither can I (or anyone else for that matter) disprove it. <Ut oh, truck coming....better get out of the way!> |
Elitist | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 03:18 pm  As promised, more stories. Karuuna you ought to really like this one. Second Story - Hallucinators I Have Known Probably one of the most stable people I ever knew was my uncle. A farmer and accountant, he had his feet solidly planted on the ground. But he also was a heavy smoker and had heart trouble and was in the hospital on and off his latter years. After one of these hospital stays, he told me of his fun time in the hospital on a medication with hallucinatory side effect. One that sticks in my mind is the little man that kept sitting on top of his TV and talking to him. The other is when he was sitting in bed and the walls disappeared and he had no idea what was happening. All the rooms furniture and equipment was there, there just weren't any walls. The interesting thing was that to him all of this was totally real, even after he was off the medication and was at home (our discussion was several months after his hospital stay). Then there was my nephew who grew up seeing things that weren't there. He kept this hidden from everybody until his late teens, whereupon he went on medication. But apparently he used to see people (alive and dead) and animals and other things that no one else did. None of the apparitions were threatening or anything and it hasn't seem to have affected his development or personality any. But what he saw he believed and accepted as part of his world. The Point: the brain is a very complex system that can easily stretch reality. The instances I have stated are somewhat extreme with dramatic results. But how much of our experience is due to the small pertubations of our brain chemistry altering reality? And how easy is it for our brain to fool us into thinking we have seen, heard, felt, smelled, tasted something that doesn't exist? |
Elitist | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 03:20 pm  Wcv - I have to say it again - you can't prove a negative (your can't disprove it either statement). But just because you can't disprove it doesn't mean it is real either. |
Wcv63 | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 03:21 pm  Elitist - I have faith that it is. |
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