Archive through October 19, 2000

The ClubHouse: The Game - Discussion Room: General : Do you believe in Synchronicity?: Archive through October 19, 2000

Ocean_Islands

Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 01:16 pm Click here to edit this post
You forgot to add that you are both mistaken.

Adven39

Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 01:24 pm Click here to edit this post
I didn't forget. I was pretty sure you'd remind us.

Ocean_Islands

Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 01:29 pm Click here to edit this post
Were you prophesying the future?

Gomer

Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 01:30 pm Click here to edit this post
To add something to the right brain/left brain picture (and not for any sake of argument but maybe clarification)I was fortunate enough to happen upon a book called "Drawing on the right side of your brain"(or something very close to it.

Was written by an art teacher in Calif.school system (can't remember the level) and I think I might have gotten the reference from the original Whole Earth catalogue-but if anyone ever has an inclination to learn (or get better) to draw/paint-I'd recommend this book highly (if it's still in print)

As was mentioned left/right equates to logic/intuition-but each of us has both parts just one side rules more of our thoughts than the other.

I bought this book and in a months time I was sketching the fruit bowls/portraits that are so common in art classes-but usually take a much longer time to absorb.Tho I liked the finished product I stopped after abt a year because of time constraints-but I must say those sketches left me as tired in my mind as my physical workouts leave my body-so much so that it felt like work,when I was looking for fun.

The best part I got out of those drawings/exercises ,tho,was the insight that it gave me towards art appreciation in it's various forms.I can critique a painting,sculpture because of my newfound insight into the mechanics (My left brain) of composition,perspective,angles,etc.

It taught my logical side what to look for.Sort of like watching and seeeing the end result of a mechanic's work that you know the theory of-but the practical application of the theory to the repair is a lot harder for me to do than the mechanic.(Tho in some cases-like the mechanic that"fixed"my AC at my house a few years ago-I would have done a better job at it)


NEVER sign up for "homeowners maintence"contracts-you'll do better on your own getting tradesmen thru word of mouth-or even the yellow pages in some instances-oops different rant :)

Elitist

Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 01:32 pm Click here to edit this post
Boy you really opened it up this time Ocean.

First about the meat and flies. Yes they thought that meat turned into flies, pretty much like you think coincidences turn into synchronicities (is that a good term or what?). Hey I got meat, then I got flies, it can only be a miraculous transformation! It wasn't until people used the scientific method that they found out that "well look at that, flies lay eggs in meat, they turn into maggots, then those turn into flies, imagine that".

The difference between the fly theory and synchronicity is that almost every time you put a piece of meat out, you would get flies. That isn't anecdotal, that was an observed fact. Now if they had come up with that conclusion when one day their brother-in-law told them it happened, then a couple of months later the butcher told them it happened to him, that would be anecdotal.

So with Newton he saw a rainbow coming from a prism. And he said "Here is an observed phenomenom, why does it do that?" and then discovering the refraction of light through glass. That is not coincidence or synchronicity, that is a logical mind seeing something and trying to determine its causes.

I am certain that seeing a rainbow through glass was not an unknown phenomena, I am sure thousands of people had seen it, and Newton had probably seen it before. I am sure he had seen a rainbow. But him placing a prism somewhere and seeing the rainbow then taking that to a logical conclusion has nothing to do with synchronicity. Him placing the prism was an event that triggered the scientific thought process, nothing more. I doubt very seriously that there was some underlying purpose that made him place it there.

I ramble. But it seems your defense of your position is pretty shaky. It has gone from some pretty good, believable stories to things that have no bearing on the argument. Kinda fuzzy math to me.

Adven39

Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 01:35 pm Click here to edit this post
I was going to say, Gomer, kind of got a little off the topic there.

Ocean_Islands

Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 01:46 pm Click here to edit this post
Alright, this is very interesting.

If they put the meat out in the winter, there would be no flies.

If Newton had not used a triangular piece of glass, he would not have gotten a spectrum.

It just takes the right experiment to get the occurrence to be repeatable. No one has figured out the right experiment yet.

Maybe no one cares to; the scientific world right now is so afraid of being laughed at (actually, the scientific world has always been afraid of being laughed at), that no one is addressing this and many other strange things that happen.

After all, they laughed at Galileo and many others.

Just a few years ago, scientists were saying it was a 'coincidence' that Africa and South America looked like the pieces of a puzzle.

Someone figured out later that, in fact, at one time they had been joined together and they have been moving slowly apart for millions of years.

Gomer

Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 01:50 pm Click here to edit this post
Yeah,but I didn't bring up the right brain/left brain stuff :)

But that book did open up a new avenue of insight into something I wasn't particularly interested in at the time-so it can't be all bad.

And my name doesn't start with a vowel-tho Oceans does-coincidence or ?

Elitist

Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 02:04 pm Click here to edit this post
This is called serendipity, not synchronicity.

And the reason that the scientific world is afraid of investigating this type of stuff is that there are so many hucksters and charlatans and con artists around that spout the stuff, and scam people with tricks, and make money off of pseudoscientific mysticism that there is no credibility in the claims to make investigating worthwhile.

The scientific community got suckered enough with reputable members of their community with things like polywater and cold fusion. Do you think they are going to investigate something from mystics that has little hard evidence.

Besides, they have investigated things such as ESP and UFOs and pretty much concluded there is not much there (I know, I know this is a whole other debate) but people still believe in them. And as I said, they cannot prove a negative. But when it becomes apparent that proving a positive is unproductive, why should they pursue it?

And I don't think they laughed at Galileo, I think they wanted to excommunicate him.

And the Africa/South America thing. So they called it a coincidence. Are they now calling it synchronicity? I think not. They now have new facts and evidence that support a new theory. Plate tectonics I believe.

Adven39

Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 02:19 pm Click here to edit this post
I assume the scientist who discovered that Africa and South America were joined at one point is one of these people who was afraid of being laughed at. Actually, science has the opposite problem - researchers who are too anxious to make a name for themselves and make claims that they can't substantiate in order to get grant money. Altering or fabricating data is a major issue.
It's interesting that you seem to hold science to a level of accountability that you do not demand of yourself. Your argument seems to be that science isn't infallible, therefore, it is suspect. Yet, you seem to offer no verifiable standard that your theory is required to meet.
As for why no scientist seems to be willing to conduct the right experiment, it's because the premise being studied has to be at least remotely plausible. They don't do research on whether coyotes can waltz, either.

Ocean_Islands

Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 02:31 pm Click here to edit this post
Some excellent points.

No, I don't think the scientific community at large will investigate some of these things. ESP has been investigated already. We're not going to start about UFOs, please! Cold fusion, etc., was merely a mistake or poor science if you will.

I don't need to hold myself to any kind of 'accountability' regarding this discussion because I am not claiming anything.

I'm not suspicious of science. However I am suspicious of 100% belief in the scientific method, just as I am suspicious of the justice system. These are things that we really don't want to think about being wrong or fallible, because it's all that we have.

I think the premise is remotely plausible. However, being able to prove it via the scientific method may not be. (Synchronicity, that is, not waltzing wolves.)

Elitist

Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 02:57 pm Click here to edit this post
Hey Ocean, I totally agree with you - I think the premise is remotely plausible. And I will continue to think about it and watch to see if anything develops. I will definitely not change my life believing it is a fact, though.

The truth is, I think a lot of the crazy things are remotely possible. Ghosts, ESP, UFOs, the Roswell accident, God, channeling, spirit walks, and so forth. But I don't let them control how I live my life. And if they hit me over the head, I will look for the guy behind the curtain, then load my pants with sh!t, then fall on my knees and thank the heavens I am so fortunate.

Adven39

Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 03:16 pm Click here to edit this post
Don't let him turn you, Elitest! It's an old Jedi trick. Beware of the power of the dark side!

Elitist

Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 03:22 pm Click here to edit this post
"Elitist, I am your father" - Ocean Islands

Gomer

Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 03:31 pm Click here to edit this post
And now
The end is near
and as I face
The final curtain-------


F Sinatra

words and music by P Anka

(in response to the original question)

Adven39

Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 03:31 pm Click here to edit this post
Okay. I don't laugh much at posts - other than my own - but that was hilarious.

Ocean_Islands

Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 03:36 pm Click here to edit this post
Are you saying Adven that you don't think it is REMOTELY possible?

Please don't tell me you are closed minded!

Katie

Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 03:38 pm Click here to edit this post
Ok I have been thinking about this since this thread started and debating if I should post to it or not and I have decided to do it.

Slightly over four years ago I was in an really bad marriage. I stayed and stayed because I honestly felt that was all there was in life. Lousy relationships.Finally when I was as low as I could get, I decided that I would rather be alone then living like that and left my husband and moved into an apartment alone. I was ready and prepared to live the rest of my life alone.

A month later I got a computer so I could continue to play on it like I had and during my exploring I found a site that has a listing for pen pal. I thought it would be fun to met some people from around the country or even around the world. I posted a reqest for a pen pal making it very clear I only wanted a pen pal and nothing else. I only posted once. I got 12 reponses, all male which wasn't what I had hoped for. I was hoping to find people who were in the same situation as I was hopefullysome women.

Anyway 4 of the men were only interested in cybersex so I just ignored them and put them on block. There were four men that altough they were nice, were interested in a relationship so I politely told them I wasn't interested and then put them on block too.

I was left with four men who were all very nice.
One was a cardioligist from Pennsyvania, one was a cowboy from Texas and one was a engineer from California and one was a guy from the NW who did work in schools. I wrote to all of these guy regularly but one guy stood out from the rest. It as if we had always known each other right from the beginning. We enjoyed writing back and forth with each other. In time we started chatting and later phone calls. By the time my divorce was done two years later, we were best friends and I had realized that we were soul mates and moved to the same city where he lives.

It is strange because I only posted that one time. He only read those posting every three or four months and that time he only read them that one day. I met my soul mate in this way. When I finally got strong enough to leave that marriage, I met my sould mate. Coincidence?

Ocean_Islands

Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 03:40 pm Click here to edit this post
No.

Gomer

Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 03:45 pm Click here to edit this post
Yes

Adven39

Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 03:55 pm Click here to edit this post
No, I'm not close-minded (although I suspect this is one of those Jedi tricks I was talking about). I knew as soon as I put "remotely" in front of "plausible" I'd made a mistake. I was just hoping it would slide. I should have known you'd both pick up on it.

Gomer

Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 04:31 pm Click here to edit this post
:)

Elitist

Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 06:56 pm Click here to edit this post
Well are you ready for my ghost story? Tough, here it is.

When we adopted my son, we met the birth parents and they kept in contact with us. They took it pretty rough even though we were all committed to the adoption (adoption is really tough).

About 6 months went by when we got a call from the birthmother about 11 at night. The birthfather had died unexpectedly.

We felt really weird that night, my wife claiming she felt a "presence" in the room, but I kinda laughed it off.

We noticed after that our son would start staring over our shoulders like something or someone was there. We said it must be his angel. (probable explanation - light or reflection of light that fascinated him).

Then there was this electronic toy he had that you could push buttons and it would play sounds or music. The interesting thing about it was that if you moved it enough, it would play "Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star" (it was designed to do this). Well that was OK, but we would sitting in one room then all of sudden it would start playing that song. And this wasn't just once, this was a lot of times (more than 25, probably less than 100) over the months, and sometimes we would be in the room when it did it. (expl. - glitch in the electronics).

Then there was the time we were watching television and he was in his baby bouncer fast asleep. I was watching him and noticed the bouncer was gently rocking of its own accord. He was not moving and wasn't really breathing that deeply. (expl. - he was moving just enough to move the bouncer - they don't take much).

We weren't too worried, we joked we knew who it was and that we were haunted. Then at Christmas my wife decorated our mantle with all sorts of stuff and backed it up with a cheap full length mirror. Well I was sitting in my rocking chair with the baby and all of a sudden the mirror started sliding off the mantle place and crashed to the floor with glass everywhere. (the mirror wasn't put up there too securely).

Finally, one night I was holding him in the chair, and we had a table next to the chair on which I had placed a plastic glass I had been drinking out of. All of a sudden the glass went flying off the table and onto the floor. (either it was unstable too, or I or my son knocked it off without knowing).

What really got us worried though was our son started seeing "A Man" in his room when the lights were out. I just thought it was imagination, but of course we were predisposed to think otherwise. Finally one night the three of us were in bed when he started saying "That Man". I decided to use a little psychology and started talking to the air in a real mean voice "Get out of here, leave us alone, get out of our house". It started scaring my wife because she thought I saw something. It worked though, he never saw the man again, and our other phenomena seemed to subside. (purely imagination and psychology).

I say subside. For some reason I have woken up in bed and the bed seems to be vibrating like a hotel bed you put the quarters in, but much more gentle. I finally asked my wife if anything like that had happened to her and she said yeah, it happens to her all the time. Who knows what that is (we must be having earth tremors in Texas or our house is extremely unstable).

So what do you think? Coincidence, ghosts, synchronicity, Prozac? Should we call an exorcist?

Oh by the way, all of this is absolutely true, no kidding. So even us logical thinkers sometimes have to wonder if there isn't more to it than we think.

Sorry Adven.

Elitist

Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 07:13 pm Click here to edit this post
Oh and Katie, thanks for sharing.

But coincidence or not? Definitely coincidence.

Adven39

Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 08:43 pm Click here to edit this post
No need to apologize, Elitest, the dark side has powers we can never hope to comprehend.
Actually, lest I be branded a total cynic, I have a true story of my own to share.
A number of years ago my brother's seven year old daughter was rushed to intensive care with a rare, brutal and potentially fatal disease. She battled this disease for days, enduring some of the most gruesome procedures imaginable designed to keep her alive. She teetered daily between times that she might recover completely and other times when the doctors expected her to die at any moment.
While in the hospital, my brother and his wife struck up a friendship with another couple who were in there because of a very difficult pregnancy the woman was experiencing.
About a week after my niece was admitted to hospital, she stabilized. At the same time, the young woman went into labor and immediately there were life-threatening complications that put the baby at serious risk. In fact, this couple later said that one doctor admitted that he didn't think the baby could be saved and if it did survive, it would have significant brain damage.
While this was going on, my niece, inexplicably, suffered a massive electrolyte imbalance and most of her major organs began to malfunction. She died within hours. Conversely, the baby, just as inexplicably, recovered and was delivered without incident and perfectly healthy.
As hokey as it may sound, the hospital records indicated that my niece died at the exact minute this baby was born.
The couple named their daughter after my niece and the friendship started at the hospital continues today. My sister-in-law swears that the daughter of this couple has many of the mannerisms and personality traits of my niece. Regardless, the relationship between this girl and my brother's family is remarkably close.
So, to me, the argument of whether this story qualifies as a coincidence or something appraoching the spiritual, is secondary to the fact that this girl has helped my brother's family through an anquish that no parent should have to endure and the girl has another family that loves, cherishes and supports her. This in itself is magical.