Archive through October 24, 2000

The ClubHouse: The Game - Discussion Room: General : Do you believe in Synchronicity?: Archive through October 24, 2000

Bijoux

Monday, October 23, 2000 - 06:59 pm Click here to edit this post
Elitest and Adven39 - How would you go about determining scientifically the existence of synchronicity? For example, we would probably need to start with some assumptions. Let's assume that people have energy and that somehow energy can form connections between people (I know - the assumption of this type of energy has not been proven scientifically - but work with me on this.)

Now we have an assumption, we need a theory. Probably standard theories of physics, etc. would not apply. Are you familiar with chaos theory (over simplifying - observed complexity and unexplained phenomenon can sometimes be explained by a simple model)? Suppose synchronicity is another application of chaos theory as applied to the movement of human energy.

Just an idea I'm throwing out for discussion.

Ocean_Islands

Monday, October 23, 2000 - 07:15 pm Click here to edit this post
Bijoux, great idea! You're a jewel!

Bijoux

Monday, October 23, 2000 - 07:17 pm Click here to edit this post
Thanks ocean. :)

Adven39

Monday, October 23, 2000 - 07:27 pm Click here to edit this post
I am vaguely familiar with chaos theory, Bijoux. At least, I saw Jurassic Park. I think the problem with your suggested model, is that it requires that one assumption be built on another, if I understand you correctly. In order to "prove" anything, I think you need to start with a single, clearly defined assumption and work toward showing it to be true.
In the case of synchronicity, the only way I can think of to show it exists is through statistical analysis. I don't even know if such a thing is possible, but you would define mathematically the odds of a particular coincidental event happening randomly, as you would by throwing dice, and then you would set up a model, again if possible, that would do the same thing for what we are calling a synchronistic event. If the incidence of synchronistic events in the analysis is significantly higher than should be mathematically expected through chance or coincidence, then you may have some evidence that something beyond coincidence exists. The problem then becomes, though, to define what has been discovered and explain how it happens.

Ocean_Islands

Monday, October 23, 2000 - 07:40 pm Click here to edit this post
I think you're putting the proverbial cart before the mythical horse, AdV.

First you have to find a predictable event, don't you?

Bijoux

Monday, October 23, 2000 - 07:58 pm Click here to edit this post
Interesting response. A statistical analysis would need to rely on a definition of the observed event. A difficult task. I have a friend that I speak to about every 3 or 4 days. He is a news junkie, so I call him after the evening news programs, then dinner, are over. Whenever I call him he tells me that he was just thinking about calling me. Wow, must be ESP. He is quite entralled with the idea that we have some kind of ESP connection so that my observation that it is pretty much a habit when we talk goes in one ear and out the other. If the problem of definition could be overcome, I think that the method would work.

Chaos theory relies more on the simulation of an event. The models used do not have analytical solutions, so statistical analysis does not apply. In this case, we would predict the outcome of an event based on a model. If the outcome of the event consistently matches what the model predicts, then that is one proof. What is different about chaos theory is that it is based on the assumption that choatic events can be modelled simply. Chaos theory was used to determine why Jupiter's red spot, a stable system, exists with the very chaotic system of swirling liquid that makes up the planet.

As applies to synchronicity, maybe it is possible for human energy to create a stable connection between two people within the chaos of swirling human energy in a manner that can be modeled.

Bijoux

Monday, October 23, 2000 - 08:07 pm Click here to edit this post
Forgot to add that no definition of what constitutes synchronicity is needed.

Adven39

Monday, October 23, 2000 - 08:27 pm Click here to edit this post
Ocean, I don't believe the event has to be predictable theoretically, but, I admit, I can't think of any plausible model that would allow coincidental or synchronistic human activity to be recorded and analyzed in any way that would clearly separate the two and allow us to draw any useful conclusions.

Bijoux, I see what you are getting at and, yes, I believe that chaos theory could be useful as you describe it. Again, as with my reference to statistical analysis, I can't imagine what that model might be or how it might work.

Bijoux

Monday, October 23, 2000 - 08:31 pm Click here to edit this post
I'd use a poisson distribution. It's for estimating the probability of events that happen, but rarely. Actually, I'd hire a statistican. Statistics weren't my forte in college.

Digilady

Monday, October 23, 2000 - 09:44 pm Click here to edit this post
What is life itself but synchronicity? (I have not read all these posts, this may have come up).

The Big Bang.

A certain set of circumstances, the proper gasses, minerals, etc... Just right for a cell to form... multiply... and presto, in what is a small belch of time in the time line, humanity.

Then again, one could argue Chaos Theory here as well.

This segues (sort of off-topic) to something that has always fascinated me.

Given the circumstances above, a life-sustaining environment occurs, whether random or not.

Given the size of the universe.

Is there any statistical probability that there is not life elsewhere?

I personally feel that to think there is NO possibility of intelligent life anywhere but on Earth is the height of egocentricity.

And you others?


(Bijoux: in college, I was a Computer Sci major with math minor. Fair to middlin good grades <snark>. With ONE FOUL exception.

Stats. The word itself turns me pale.

Elitist

Monday, October 23, 2000 - 09:51 pm Click here to edit this post
Well luckily I have had some training in statistics, unfortunately I haven't had a chance to bone up on chaos theory. My understanding of chaos theory from what I have read though was more on the lines that even random/chaotic events had some pattern to them that could be elucidated through equations derived from the theory. That is why you get these sci-fi stories on guys using chaos theory to win Keno or the lottery.

I think your basic assumption about a human energy would be the place to start, however. If you can prove that (which seems a much easier task than proving synchronicity) then you would have strong basis to explain a lot of things. Unfortunately until you do that, the basis of your whole theory is pretty shaky.

Unfortunately there isn't a lot of evidence that such an energy exists, at least that has any significant influence outside of the body (meaning the electrochemical reactions that make the body and brain work).

I like the idea about testing synchronicity. What kind of experiment could you make? Does it necessarily have to involve humans? How about this - take two decks of cards, pick one out of one deck, then throw the other up into the air. Count the number of cards that fall face up that match the suit of the card you picked. Repeat this thousands of times. If the suits match up more than statistics indicate, would this be coincidence or synchronicity? We could even vary the type/mindset of the person who picks the card and throws up the deck.

I will think on this for a while.

Elitist

Monday, October 23, 2000 - 09:53 pm Click here to edit this post
Oh, and Hi Adven.

The Dark Side has not claimed me yet.

But I do keep seeing dark dogs out of the corner of my eye.

Elitist

Monday, October 23, 2000 - 10:12 pm Click here to edit this post
Twiggy,

About your black dog experience. The only thing I find remarkable about it is that both of you experienced it at the same time. That lends some credence to what you saw/felt was real.

There are a lot of things that can happen during sleep, or more importantly right between sleep and waking. Some of the phenomena are paralysis and hallucinations. Many of the so-called UFO abduction experiences in which the subject says they can't move can be explained by the paralysis phenomena (I can't remember the technical term - can someone look it up?).

The real question is was what you saw real, or did one of you have a dream about a subject that you were thinking about (young dog on porch) that translated into some sort of communication to the other. Do either of you talk in your sleep. Or did your husband excited mumbling perhaps contain some reference to the dog that triggered your own waking experience? You will probably never know, but you will have your own "story" to tell for the rest of your life.

Now if there had just been some black hair on the bed, or maybe a gnawed bone on the floor...

Bijoux

Monday, October 23, 2000 - 10:19 pm Click here to edit this post
Thanks for a clearer explanation of chaos theory. I'll add that another aspect is that the equations represent an underlying simplicity to what appears random or highly complex. I.e., observed complexity is not derived from a complex system of equations. I've only been reading about chaos theory recently and hadn't heard of the use of it for gambling.

Now we're back on the what's been proved and what's believed thread. I believe strongly in human energy and the use of it to make our own "luck." I would go on to say that the observed ability of people able to levitate, or change the temperature of their body represents the use of this energy. At least what I define to be this energy.

Twiggyish

Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 06:09 am Click here to edit this post
Elitist, that is a possibility. My husband did say something about the dog. It is possible his suggestion did trigger my dream. Anyway, as you say, it makes for a good story. We had a good chuckle about it afterward.

Oceans, haven't you ever had anything unexplained happen to you?

Digilady

Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 06:53 am Click here to edit this post
Twig, can I respond to that one? (I think this falls under deja vu, though!)

First time I ever went to London, I went with my Mom and Dad. I was about 15 or so.

We went out for a bottle of booze and promptly got =very= lost. We had walked for blocks when my Dad finally said "Let's pack it in & take a cab."

I said "No! Two more blocks straight ahead. Take a right, go one block, and take another right."

We did so, and there it was - an ancient booze store. Dated back centuries, used to be (or still was, I'm not certain now) a pub.

Memorized a map? No pubs on the maps I had.

What explanation could there be? I'd never been to London, we'd only been there 2 days, and the first had been spent sleeping.

Ocean_Islands

Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 07:20 am Click here to edit this post
You're a real booze hound, Digitalgirl!

I must admit I have an incredible knack for finding Pizza Huts and Subshops.

Fruitbat

Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 07:55 am Click here to edit this post
And apparently a real lush in the previous life when she frequented the joint.

Elitist

Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 08:52 am Click here to edit this post
Bijoux - well lets talk about levitation and changing the temperature of one's body.

I have seen and read a lot of stuff on levitation, and there really hasn't been any concrete proof that anyone has levitated. There were some pretty good hoaxes. I liked the one where they go to some distant village and the guy is sitting in mid-air in his robes with one hand on a walking stick that is touching the ground. The scientists were overwhelmed, took pictures, made sure there was nothing underneath him. Much later the villagers showed how it was done - the walking stick was actually anchored in the ground and an extension went through the arm of the guru's robe and ended in a small seat that he was sitting on. Villagers bamboozle scientists.

Then you have the guys with their legs crossed hopping around the room saying they are levitating. They look more like ducks with their wings cut off (and get as far off the ground) and is both hilarious and pathetic at the same time.

Then there were the experiment where they took a guru that claimed he could levitate and put him in a conducive environment and asked him to perform. The only difference in the environment was that he was sitting on a scale. The idea was that if he levitated, the scale would show some decrease in mass. He performed gyrations and did indeed get most of his body in the air, but there was always one part touching and the scale never varied significantly. He claimed he had levitated.

Levitation should be easy to prove. If they are levitating, you should be able to go up to them and move totally around them to make sure there are no suspending mechanism, and voila', you have proved the point. But you can't let them control the environment - look at how many magic acts make you think they can levitate people when in actuality it is a trick of the trade. Look how gullible the scientists were with the villagers that used a simple trick to simulate levitation.

Now the body temperature thing is a whole 'nother matter. Haven't read too much on this, but I can believe it. Physiological changes to the body that are controlled by the conscious mind are pretty common and I believe well documented. I don't see where this is any different and doesn't really require any extra "energy" to explain it. In fact, aren't stigmata a change brought on by the subconcious during a psychotic event (or an act of God if you want to go that way).

Why do we have to evoke some mystical energy to explain things that can be explained in other, known, simpler ways? Who was it that said "Keep it simple, Stupid?".

Elitist

Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 08:57 am Click here to edit this post
I would also like to say this has been a great thread and I am totally suprised that it hasn't degenerated into a bashing session (knock on wood).

Suprised the Admin hasn't kicked us off, that the people here are having a good conversation with differing ideas and beliefs, and we are even getting a few laughs.

Now if we could just get on Letterman.

Wcv63

Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 09:46 am Click here to edit this post
Actually Elitist, it seems as if Host and Admin have enjoyed the Syncronicity thread so much that they have made it a discussion topic in the house.

{{Then you have the guys with their legs crossed hopping around the room saying they are levitating. They look more like ducks with their wings cut off (and get as far off the ground) and is both hilarious and pathetic at the same time.}}

The mental image this paragraph evoked had me laughing till I cried!

Bijoux

Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 10:00 am Click here to edit this post
Do I believe that people will create hoaxes to get attention? You betcha. Do I believe that levitation, etc. has been disproven? No. Maybe we do agree on something. I don't believe people who are able to change their body temperature are able to do so because of some "mystic energy." The ability to change body temperature, etc. is what I would call an example of the use of human energy.

Let's go to something simpler. Medical testing of new drugs requires a comparison of the drug to a placebo. One reason placebos are used is because some people will get better regardless of what is used and also because some people will get better just because they believe that the medicine will cure them (one reason why snake oil salesmen are successful). Medical research is just beginning to explore the mind/body connection. If a person's mind is able to influence their physical being, then it seems possible to me that humans can also create an energy that can connect with another human being or animal.

Would you settle for Leno if Letterman doesn't call?

Karuuna

Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 10:06 am Click here to edit this post
Bijoux -- and one can add to those studies, the many new studies that show prayer makes a difference in both the ability of healing and the rapidity of healing. Well documented, scientific studies, using the scientific method.

Interesting enough that such studies show that the patient's knowledge and participation in those prayers is beneficial. But even more interesting are the double blind studies that show that patients benefit when they *don't know* they are being prayed for, nor do their physicians.

Elitist

Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 10:23 am Click here to edit this post
Wait Bijoux - you said "Do I believe that levitation, etc. has been disproven? No." Well that is what I was talking about before - we can't disprove levitation (you can't prove a negative) but we don't have to believe in it till it is proven.

And as far as the mind influencing a person's well-being - Sure. But the step from there to creating an energy is the leap of faith that I don't see (at least the scientist part of me).

Karuuna - I would really like a reference on the double blind studies where people were getting better from prayer when they didn't know they were being prayed for (is that good English or what?). If that study (or it should be studies to validate) is real, statistically significant, and reproducible, then that is something to go for. Please let me know if you can dig up some links for that.

Has to be Letterman. I do have some standards.

Fruitbat

Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 10:49 am Click here to edit this post
Elitist...I have not heard of a Stigmata ever being "real". Have you? They are investigated in the US and none have proven to be anything more than a hoax. I do not know about other countries but I suspect they are taken for real with no investigation in other places. I have seen the bouncing levitators it is humorous Wvc. What is even better, is to hear them talk after........they really believe they have done it.

Bijoux <<<<I don't believe people who are able to change their body temperature are able to do so because of some "mystic energy." The ability to change body temperature, etc. is what I would call an example of the use of human energy. >>>>>

I agree. There is the assumption, with some, that the power of the human mind and energy exchanges are mystical. Science and many spiritual concepts (I do not speak of religion here) are not seperate. The ability to affect another with the power of our thoughts and focus is very real as well. (Karuuna, above post)

The word prayer, evokes the summoning of god and can confuse the actual phenomenon to be something ouside our own creation or control........for some, myself included.