Archive through October 26, 2000
The ClubHouse: The Game - Discussion Room: General :
Do you believe in Synchronicity?:
Archive through October 26, 2000
Karuuna | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 03:48 pm  Er, Elitist, are you implying that I have been hallucinating? That this thread, and <gasp> even you, are a figment of my imagination?! hehehe I agree that there are many things that are explainable via brain chemistry. So now for you Elitist, one to add to your file... When I was working on my masters (which i did not complete), I did an internship in a hospital in Denver that specializes in treating brain-injured patients. We had one woman who had been infected with a rare, short-term viral infection in her cerebral cortex. Apparently this particular part of her brain was the part responsible for allowing her to recognize her left leg as her own. After the infection was gone, the woman still could not "recognize" her left leg. She would complain about someone else's leg being in bed with her, and become severely agitated. You could poke that leg, and she would say she felt pain. You could instruct her to move the toes, foot, bend the knee of that leg, and she could. You could ask her to walk on it, hop on it, and she could. You could point out to her that it was the mirror image of her right leg, and that it was attached to her at the hip. But in spite of all those exercises, she continued to insist that the leg was not her own. No amount of logic or example of how she could use it and feel it could convince her that the leg belonged to her. That's a pretty strong argument for brain determinism. Our brain can not only stretch reality, but it can limit it as well. |
Karuuna | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 03:50 pm  Wcv - skip the speed bumps. Get a large virtual gun and shoot out my virtual tires!  |
Elitist | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 03:50 pm  Wcv - Good for you. Can't fault that. And don't get me wrong in all of this. I have the utmost respect for people who have a strong faith in their God or other beliefs. It is that type of faith that changed the world in the past, and probably will in the future. But even faith is based on some sort of knowledge/learning. The Christian faith is based on the New Testament. But what would happen if it was proven that there was no historical Jesus, that the books of the New Testament were written by a bunch of rebels that were bent on overthrowing the Roman Empire, and that most of the Christ story was just revamped pagan mythology made more palatable for the masses? Would you be able to still have that type of faith? (Not that I am saying any of this is true). As you said, your faith is based on the acts of God in your life, and that is a nice, strong base. I hope you are able to keep it through your life during the good times as well as through the troubled times. |
Ocean_Islands | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 03:53 pm  But hold on just a minute folks! These documented cases of Synchronicity have nothing to do with brain perceptions. That's something totally different. |
Karuuna | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 03:59 pm  wcv - I have faith, for my own reasons, mostly unproven and some "loosely" proven to my satisfaction. Right or wrong, true or false, I believe. i still have this yearning to somehow "prove" it though. Must be that incessant Virgo need to be right! And leave it to Ocean to try and bring us back on topic. Good job! This is a complex subject tho, and I think the loose connection is the question about whether Synchronicity actually exists, or if it is manufactured by the human craving for meaning. |
Ocean_Islands | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 04:17 pm  That's very well said Karuuna. To satisfy the human yearnings for meaning -- roots of spirituality. Are you familiar with Jung's synchonicity theory and how it relates to the collective unconscious? There is also a link to Hinduism and Buddhism -- that we choose our own destiny. Using this link to interpret the first story I told, about the Nova Scotia writer and his coffin returning home for burial, Indian religions would say that the man chose to die on a seacoast, in an area frequented by hurricanes. He died in the care of people who would bury him in a cemetery by the sea; in a part of the Gulf coast that would be subject to prevailing currents connecting to the jet stream, and the jet stream goes right up to Nova Scotia from the entrance to the Gulf of Mexico. He chose it all in advance. |
Wcv63 | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 04:21 pm  <He chose it all in advance.> Or it's just one big coincidence!! HA!! Let the debate begin again! |
Karuuna | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 04:33 pm  Thanks, Ocean. My Jung's pretty rusty, but I have some pretty good books on him here, I'll brush up a little later, and let you know what I think. I do know pretty well his theory about collective unconscious, and I can guess how that might support synchronicity -- but it would be my guess, not what Jung said. I honestly have to admit, I have some trouble with the whole "somehow I subconsciously knew that if I did this, that would happen" stuff. However, I will allow that this may just be personal emotional resistance to the people that take it so far as to say that we chose our parents and the particular situation that we were born into. If that is the case, then I'm going to have some serious explaining to do to myself someday! (Does that sound as insane as I think it does?!) Setting that particular idiosyncracy aside, I will allow that I do believe we often do things subconsciously, in fact I think we do most things out of mere "habit" versus chosen behavior. I don't know that I buy that we subconsciously *choose* since to me the act of choosing is a conscious one. The only way that could be true, is if there is some other part of ourselves that knows more than we know that in fact is doing the choosing. I'm familiar with that belief system, I just don't think it's as well supported as other belief systems. |
Vasix | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 04:59 pm  Cover me WCV, I'm going in: Awareness (Perception) and thought (Cognition) are two different states. Choice is not a state but a perception of an active change of state and/or the illusion of voluntary selection between states. Therefore: So Kar you simply have to decide: of Perception, Cognition and Awareness which of the three are necessary and/or sufficient to prove or disprove the existence of synchronicity? Of course, be aware that after all your thinking you will: choose to believe and perceive you have a choice. thought/awareness/choice: only two are states, one is an illusion. Your "decisions" are your belief system. The strength of your beliefs are bounded by your perceptions enforced by your thoughts on the existence of choice. I'm aware of my belief that given a certainty or an uncertainty, I think I'll choose the chocolate chip cookie. |
Ocean_Islands | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 05:04 pm  Actually, the whole Hindu thing is just that: choosing your parents. You choose the life you have with its particular difficulties. We choose the difficulties we need in order to grow. |
Ocean_Islands | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 05:10 pm  Actually, WCV, we are not beginning the debate again: We have not yet explored the pre-destination of life which is at the base of the collective unconscious and synchronicity itself. Synchronicity is a mere 'trick' -- an accidental revelation of mechanisms operating beneath this world of pain and fleshly desire known as samsara. It is a level that we can only imagine, as it is invisible to us. But just as Newton knew there was a force which made the apple fall from the tree and it only took someone to describe and understand it, there is a force which operates beneath all reality and causes -- indirectly or directly -- these strange things to happen. |
Vasix | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 05:32 pm  Okay, just one tiny off message post (actually it only appears to be off message). A friend and I were standing in a new building looking out at a courtyard filled with trees that obviously were "saved" during contruction. These trees of the land's original forrest were very tall, straight trunked and were swaying in the storm that had dumped 14 inches of snow in the previous six hours. As the winds increased the trees seem to stir the the storm's frenzy. Transfixed by the spectacle, we watched as one of the swaying mammoths fell to the ground without a noise. It simply fell as if shot. My friend turned to me, and breaking the silence said, "Are we here?" |
Karuuna | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 06:11 pm  Okay, Vaxie, you lost me! Perception and cognition are different states in what way? I suppose you could perceive something subconsciously and react, ie, I perceive that there's a fly on my arm and I attempt to swat it off without ever having a clear cognition about it. But did I *choose* to brush off the fly? For me, choice is about thinking, hey, there's a fly on my arm, do I want to kill it, what are the karmic consequences of killing it and where's that darn cat when I need him? Then I make a choice to tolerate the fly, swat at the fly, or call the cat, or whatever. I'm being silly, but you get the idea. I'm used to awareness being used in a different way -- and perception being used as a property of the five commonly defined senses. Awareness to me is more than perception -- awareness is closer to the thought process that leads to making a choice. I cognize (how's that for a word) about all that's going on, all my options for behavior and the possible consequences, and that equals full awareness. As for illusion, are we back on that pretend thread? I'm starting to think this whole board is one big illusion. I think that most thoughts are illusion (for the most part), but total awareness as I described it is less of an illusion, but still partly illusory since it comes so encumbered with our preconceptions and biases. Now if you can tell me what I just said, and explain it so I can understand it, I'll give you chocolate chip cookies, AND I'll figure out how all this effects my perception and awareness of synchronicity! |
Whit4you | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 06:15 pm  Well I think Syncronicity is just a word to define an event or series of events that APPEAR to be coincidence because of our limited understanding. |
Karuuna | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 06:16 pm  Ocean -- yeah, that would be the whole reincarnation route, but the skeptic in me just won't go there, at least not yet. The first step toward proving that, would be proof that there is in fact, a distinct and unique part of ourselves that exists separately from our physical bodies. I'm not always entirely convinced of that, altho due to personal experiences (or hallucinations?), I'm relatively certain that's true. But then there's a huge leap toward believing that soul/spirit/essence whatever inhabits body after body after body in order to learn specific lessons before moving on to the next. In some ways, I'd *like* that to be true, in other ways, I think of some of the things I've done in this life, and I'm not looking forward to the karmic consequences! |
Karuuna | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 06:17 pm  Vasix - we're virtually here. Neener neener!  |
Vasix | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 06:22 pm  Kar Its not that I can't fold up maps, its what was I thinking when I unfolded them? I don't know what you said, but if you can fold it back up, lets put it in the glove box. Which is where,oddly enough, we never think to put our gloves. |
Vasix | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 06:38 pm  And I can't wait to see where the re-incarnation thread takes us. I've spent lifetimes thinking about re-incarnation. |
Karuuna | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 07:57 pm  Vasix -- hey was it the speed or the size of those 18-wheelers that scared you off? I'd put in the glove box but I need a few extra hands to refold it, and then I'd have to remove the owners manual and assorted papers. Those glove boxes have gotten a lot smaller since the advent of airbags. And I refuse to have anyone "read" my past lives. Everyone I know that has ever had it done has been a king or a princess or rich or famous in one way or another. Just my luck I'd come out to be a street sweeper, and then I'd have past life envy, not to be confused with apple tree envy which I already suffer from. Call the arborist! |
Sandyc | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 08:53 pm  'It is a level that we can only imagine, as it is invisible to us.' -- Just as thought waves are invisible. To use the word "trick" implies a joke. Mechanisms operating underneath our fleshy, cognant reality are our subconscious and our unconscious. Are you saying we are playing tricks on ourselves and those we are connected to. Or that 'something' is playing tricks on us. This can lead to paranoia on a grand scale. Some perception is conscious and some is not. Awareness is what our perception gets us. Cognition is consciously making up our mind that we understand what we are aware of. We can have instant karma. We don't have to be born again to grow. As someone else said, the mere fact that our brains are as they are is synchronistic in itself. Until we fully realize (there's a good word for you - make real) the potential. What does pre-destination of life mean? Our purpose in life? Do we have to have a purpose, a reason to be given life? Are we supposed to do or be something in particular? Isn't that kind of having our attention on ourselves and thereby limiting our awareness of the whole? Belief. We believe therefore it is. We don't all believe therefore it isn't,(yet). |
Elitist | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 09:51 pm  Sandy - I think the tricks are really (as said before) our minds trying to place meaning where there may not be any. Thus coincidences become synchronicity. Of course the converse is true - the mind can refuse to accept meaning where there is. |
Elitist | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 09:58 pm  Well I think part of the debate keeps coming back to this question: Is there a collective mind that all humans are a part of that we only dimly perceive, and that affects all of our lives, that shows up as phenomena such as synchronicity, spirits, esp, etc. Or is each person a unique and isolated ball of gray matter that has no connection outside of itself except through the machinations of the flesh? I think most people would want to believe in the first to some degree. Now there have been some hints in this thread, but I will ask the question - are any of you enlightened beings that have a higher perception of this universal mind? And if so spill. |
Elitist | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 10:04 pm  And before I go to bed lets get really esoteric. If there is truly a univeral mind, then why not let it explain everything. It should know everything that anyone knows, so it should be close to omniscient and omnipresent. I believe it has been said it is not mitigated by distance. But to fully explain all phenomena, it should probably also not be limited by death. And since it is not subject to normal laws of distance, should it also not be subject to time? Is not synchronicity simply the grand unconscious dipping forward and backward in time to determine the best probable path? Good night. |
Misslibra | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 10:19 pm  Do I believe in synchronicity ? How can you not believe in it ? That is the question ! Yes I'm a believer. |
Wcv63 | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 10:20 pm  I have a headache. My brain is having spasms. I hope you're all happy. |
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