Archive through October 19, 2000
The ClubHouse: The Game - Discussion Room: General :
Do you believe in Synchronicity?:
Archive through October 19, 2000
Adven39 | Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 07:45 am  Dreams do come true, it just isn't synchronicity when it happens. The only difference that I can see between synchronicity and coincidence is that we attach emotional or spiritual significance to one and we don't to the other. The more improbable the coincidence, the more likely we are to attach some larger importance to it. In order to strengthen the argument that synchronicity actually exists, you need to define it, separate it from coincidence and see if it is happening in statistically significant numbers to a degree that makes it something other than coincidence. As Elitest indicated, the universe is a chaotic, random, often seemingly senseless place. We look for meaning and order in the chaos and often don't find it. If the truth is the ultimate goal, I think it is counter-productive to take what I see as quantum leaps in logic in our search for answers. As a philosophy or belief for the individual, I think synchronicity is fine, if that's how someone wishes to view the world around them. To take that out of the realm of spirituality, and suggest it has an empirical basis, however, will take a lot more evidence than you have currently provided. |
Ocean_Islands | Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 08:17 am  Well I can see I'm the only one towing the line here and I am quite outnumbered. Naysaying is much more fun than something else, and it's also very easy. I'm not in the business of providing empirical evidence; synchronicity will never be proven, just like emotions cannot be proven. Quantum leaps in logic don't apply because what I am exploring is not at all logical. I'm simply exploring Jung's concept because I think it to be an intriguing one. I'm also happy to be someone who can bridge the gap between empiricism and the ethereal without having to deny one or the other. |
Digilady | Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 08:56 am  Shit, Oc, I agree... I just really haven't had the time to hark up a decent post on the subject. It won't be today, probably, either... but hang in! I =can= say that I've been a firm believer for 20+ years. YAH! Don't let me get started... back to work <craaack the whip> |
Sandyc | Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 08:57 am  That was fun. Imagine how boring it would be if we all saw things the same way. |
Affinity | Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 09:33 am  Sandyc, I agree unintentional rhyme |
Gomer | Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 09:55 am  Ocean- On the Lincoln thing a few points 1-I've never seen a corrorobaration to the "dream"story-which was lifted from memoirs of a Lincoln "bodyguard" at the time-tho in his account a few other people were there. 2-The lincoln/Kennedy thing a couple points are-Oswald was"known"by 3 names because the press picked that up from Dallas police who book you under 3 names-since that's what is usually on any id (drivers license,passport,whatever)-tho any interview I've seen with his wife she referred to him as Lee-while Booth WAS billed with 3 names in the theatre (a theatrical family line)PLUS-if we're to believe the conspiracy theorists Oswald was not the killer-tho that person(s) MAY be known by 3 names-but that's another avenue I don't care to go. My point in my Babe Ruth Tale was that many things can be strewn together to create,or support,some theory-and for all I know in this wide world of instantaneous communication on the net-the Ruth thing may have been brought up before-and may even have a webpage devoted to it-altho I just made mine up on spur of the moment because of a conversation I had recently about the Babe. All the timelines were corrrect-until his death,so I embellished on it to try to create a story that had no meaning to me other than satyrical,but stories like that do have meaning for others,which is how a lot of"information" is disseminated in the media. I'm not looking for converts-merely tried to demonstrate how some"mystical"events aren't really what they appear on the surface-a fact that more than one salesman/conman/tout uses every day to get money from uninformed dupes. I'm not saying you,or your fellow believers in this particular idea are-but it's from these roots (the wide eyed believers among them) that they get their customers-and I consider that "trade"(snake oil salesman)particularly slimy |
Ocean_Islands | Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 10:13 am  Here is Lincoln's dream; he recounted it to his wife and some friends three days before he was killed: "About ten days ago, I retired very late. I had been up waiting for important dispatches from the front. I could not have been long in bed when I fell into a slumber, for I was weary. I soon began to dream. There seemed to be a death-like stillness about me. Then I heard subdued sobs, as if a number of people were weeping. I thought I left my bed and wandered downstairs. There the silence was broken by the same pitiful sobbing, but the mourners were invisible. I went from room to room; no living person was in sight, but the same mournful sounds of distress met me as I passed along. I saw light in all the rooms; every object was familiar to me; but where were all the people who were grieving as if their hearts would break? I was puzzled and alarmed. What could be the meaning of all this? Determined to find the cause of a state of things so mysterious and so shocking, I kept on until I arrived at the East Room, which I entered. There I met with a sickening surprise. Before me was a catafalque, on which rested a corpse wrapped in funeral vestments. Around it were stationed soldiers who were acting as guards; and there was a throng of people, gazing mournfully upon the corpse, whose face was covered, others weeping pitifully. 'Who is dead in the White House?' I demanded of one of the soldiers, 'The President,' was his answer; 'he was killed by an assassin.' Then came a loud burst of grief from the crowd, which woke me from my dream. I slept no more that night; and although it was only a dream, I have been strangely annoyed by it ever since." |
Adven39 | Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 10:38 am  Ocean, I'm not naysaying because it's fun (okay, sometimes it is) or to be contrary for the sake of being contrary. I honestly believe what Elitest and I and a few others are saying is true. I respect your opinion and the fact you are sticking to your guns when three or four of us are sniping at you. I would not keep contributing to this thread if I felt you were being ganged up on or weren't capable of defending your position effectively. Besides, SandyC is on your side and Digilady has yet to be heard from. |
Ocean_Islands | Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 10:47 am  "The most beautiful and profound emotion we can experience is the sensation of the mystical. It is the sower of all true science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead." Albert Einstein |
Noslonna | Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 10:52 am  As a believer in Will-o'-the-wisps ... Syncronicity grabs your attention and imagination. All those mysterious and whimsical, or scary loose ends, neatly arranged in an orderly pattern. It would make sense out of a crazy world. But that takes away the fun. You are left staring at a boring old pattern, all synchronicity and randomness gone, all loose ends tied up in that four letter word -- Fate. Making a pattern out of coinkydink leaves nothing to the imagination except Ignus Fatuus. |
Gomer | Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 10:55 am  Ocean-that"dream'was lifted from the memoirs I alluded to before,which were written some years after Lincoln was gone-where is the corroboration from the other"witnesses"? I ask questions like why wasn't this in the press of the time (I've never seen it quoted as from the xx News of 1865) further if the dream did occur what significance should I apply to it-since an assassination attempt was a very real fear in those years because of Lincoln's anti-slavery stance-hence his"bodyguard" for the last year or so of his life (this man slept in/by Lincoln's room (s) and something that must have been in Lincoln's subconcious,if not an outright daily concern. It comes down to what we tend to believe whether we pursue these thoughts further-such as"could his death have been prevented".I doubt it since all the measures they knew about at the time were implemented-before the fact,to the best of my knowledge. |
Elitist | Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 11:15 am  Well lets get a little deeper - even with Einstein. The real thing about logical and mystical goes to how our brain works. The left side is the logic center which handles speech, reading, writing, mathematics. The right side is our symbolic and creative side, which handles shapes and forms. The right side can't speak, or read, or write, but works in symbols. In essence the left side of your brain is logical, the right mystical. There is some communication between the two, but they are pretty independent. In fact you can severe the connection (I think this was first observed in some brain damaged patients - and I don't have the time to do a search now) and your left hand (controlled by the right side) will not be able to write at all - it just can't comprehend writing. The thing is in humans one side or the other of the brain dominates. Logical and pragmatic thinkers tend to be left brained, artists and entertainers tend to be right brained. But both sides still exist for everyone. So you have this creative and mystic side that accepts and tries to interpret things in a symbolic matter - making connections such synchronicity real, or making spirituality real, while you have this logical side that is telling you "Hey this is bunk - Show me the evidence". Now the truly creative geniuses such as Einstein had a knack for tapping into that symbolic brain and using it to take the intuitive leaps that his logical brain could quantize and formalize. And it is not suprising that he made that quote, because the workings of the right side of the brain do seem magical, making connections that the logical side would never see, and in essence divining truths that we would not normally see with our left brain. Now how was that? By the way, there is a test out there somewhere that will show you if you are left or right brain dominated, and if your are visually or hearing oriented (I remember the executable was brain.exe). If you can find it, let's take it and see which of the believers in synchronicity are right brained and which are left brained. Now Ocean, don't you wish I would have stayed in my Banish Vykin thread? |
Sbw | Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 11:23 am  Couple of questions - What happens when the monkey named Shakespeare is the first one to type out Hamlet? At what point does something become so unlikely that it by appearance would seem to be fate? (As in the story of the pilot, what are the chances the plane would crash, what are the chances the wife would be helping out, what were the chances that she would visit her friends....statistical wise that percentage would have to very small.) |
Ocean_Islands | Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 11:40 am  Of course not, Elitist, I would say rather, Aren't you glad you got out of your little box? I'm afraid you're a bit mixed up on the split brain experiments, and I'd have to see back up on the logical/mystical brain split you are referring to, I've never seen it put quite that way before. When, due to treatment for epilepsy, the two halves of the brain have to be disassociated by severing the direct connections between the two halves, some strange things happen. Take one of the people who have had this treatment, and place in their left hand an easily recognized object. The object is behind a curtain so that the person cannot see it. This person CANNOT speak what the object is. But their left hand, amazingly so, can write down what the object is! Even after writing it (as long as they don't see the other side of the curtain), the person cannot say the object. Why? Because speech is located in the right half of the brain, and until that half of the brain can see the object, the person cannot speak what it is; however, the left brain knows what it is and can easily write it. What does this have to do with synchronicity? Simply that there are some things that are very strange which actually do have explanations. But the explanations are not always forthcoming. |
Elitist | Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 11:56 am  SBW - sure the percentage has to be small, but then there are 6 billion people in the world. So even though the chances of it happening are small, there are enough people and enough time that it probably will happen. Take for instance the lottery here in Texas. The chances of winning are 1 in 25 million. That is an extremely small chance of something happening. But people win, especially when tens of millions of people enter. And the guy who does win really talks it up. But you don't when you lose do you? So now you have billions of people dreaming every night. And they are dreaming about just about everything. And then the guy who has a dream that comes true will talk about it and all of a sudden he is psychic or it is synchronicity. Sure the statistics says there is a small chance of it happening, but there are so many chances being taken that it is almost guaranteed to happen. By the way, the link to the left/right brain stuff is http://commhum.mccneb.edu/cchurchill/brainquiz.htm |
Elitist | Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 12:00 pm  Ocean you might be right about the writing and speaking, I can never keep it straight. But I think if you look a little deeper you will see that the two sides are logical/intuitive. Take the test and see. |
Elitist | Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 12:04 pm  Here is another link to tell the differences. And like Al Gore, it seems I missed some of the details. But I think I got most of the big picture correct. And I promise I will do better and will always be right on the Big Items. http://brain.web-us.com/brain/LRBrain.html |
Adven39 | Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 12:04 pm  In Einstein's book, "The Oscillating Universe", which I have read, but don't pretend to understand except at a rudimentary level, he discusses his theory on relativity. If you are looking to be awed and to experience the sense of the mystical, it is found in his constructs on light and time. What makes them so powerful and awe-inspiring is that they are very likely true: as you appraoch the speed of light, time may actually slow down. This sort of thing is what Einstein was referring to in his quotation posted above. To me, this is much more beautiful and profound than a theory that has no basis other than that we might like it to be so. |
Ocean_Islands | Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 12:12 pm  I think Einstein was referring, in large part, to the sense of mystery leading one to discover the component parts of it in order eventually to understand it. But if you don't have the sense of mystery and awe, and dismiss it out of hand, then you never get to the discovery part at all. Don't get me started on the subject that relativity is a theory which cannot be proven. I'll simply say it is beautiful and profound and you may wish it to be true. |
Adven39 | Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 12:27 pm  Okay, we'll save relativity for another thread and another time. I've pretty well exhausted anything I might have to add on this topic and sense neither one of us is about to suddenly come to our senses and realize the error of our ways. Besides, this cerebral stuff is making me hungry. |
Elitist | Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 12:43 pm  Funny you should say that. I was about to write and say I was hungry too. |
Ocean_Islands | Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 12:47 pm  Isn't it a coincidence that you both change the subject when your arguments have run out? |
Elitist | Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 12:59 pm  OK where were we? I thought we had convinced you. Essentially I say your synchronicity is essentially statistically insignificant coincidence that the mind tries to pattern into something more significant. You say there is a purpose behind coincidence, i.e. that coincidence is not random but occurs for a reason. The thing is, I can't prove a negative. I can't prove synchronicity doesn't exist. I can't prove that God doesn't exist. But you can prove a positive by showing us good scientific fact and evidence that synchronicity exists. Use the scientific method to prove it, not anecdotes. Show me events that can only be explained by purposeful synchronicity, not by random coincidence. In other words, until you prove it exists, it is only a dream. And don't even say it is a theory because a theory at least has some hard evidence behind it. Again you only have anecdotes. |
Ocean_Islands | Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 01:12 pm  It may be that synchronicity itself is not purposeful, but a manifestation, if you will, of something beneath that may indeed be purposeful (or not). In the middle ages, people believed that meat left out in the sun turned into flies. This was an anecdote, wasn't it. At some point, they understood what was happening. So anecdotes, while the term is dismissive, can be quite useful. Here's an anecdote for you: A guy had a triangular piece of glass. One day he placed it on the table where slivers of sunlight were shining down. One sliver of sunlight fell on the piece of glass. It created a rainbow! Isn't that strange? If he had said, "That's just a coincidence," then Isaac Newton never would have discovered the spectrum. |
Adven39 | Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 01:13 pm  It isn't a coincidence that we were both hungry. Sounds more like synchronicity to me. Let's look at the facts: 1. Elitest and I have similar views. 2. We both get hungry - around the same time. 3. Our handles both start with a vowel. 4. You don't agree with either one of us. 5. His name's Elitest and I'm an egomaniac. 6. We both posted on the Vykin thread. 7. The word "Einstein" was used by both of us. 8. Neither one of us seems capable of dropping this topic, despite indications that we are about to. 9. We both have 7 characters in our handles. Coincidence? I think not. |
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