Topic # 6 - Domestic Abuse

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Recently, in an Ottawa newspaper, an article was written about domestic abuse. A 35 year old stay-at-home Dad woke up one morning, and chased his 35 year old wife out of the house and down the street, stabbing her continuously while she screamed for help. When she reached a neighbor's house, her husband stabbed the elderly couple who tried to assist the woman. When neighbors were interviewed, they said the man was known for his kindness and attention to his son. The woman was a well known community speaker, who spoke on violence against women.

We hear these stories more and more. Please discuss your feelings about this issue, and what we as a society can do to prevent this from occuring in the future.

Zebulon

Sunday, October 15, 2000 - 09:14 am Click here to edit this post
I think this is more of a story of mental illness than domestic violence. It doesn't sound like this type of behavior was a repeating occurrance.

Let me think about this some more.

Talisker

Sunday, October 15, 2000 - 11:43 am Click here to edit this post
I would like to think about this too -

I know that abuse takes many forms and they are not readily visible - even to the person who is being abused. Physical abuse is easier to spot though. But, whether is it physical or mental abuse, I think that one thing that has to be changed is for the person being abused to think that it is their fault.

I think a person in an abusive relationship has a tendency to feel like they are the one who is causing the abuser to treat them like shit. They think maybe they did something to make this person have a bad day and hurt them (hurt can be whacking someone around or finding twisted methods to make them feel like they are totally worthless - both have the same end result - you feel like shit)

At first, you keep thinking when the abuser does something that this is all my fault - something I did made this my fault. I have to try harder to be a better person, a better lover, a better cook, a better helper, a better housekeeper, a better friend, whatever else you can do so you don't cause this person to treat you bad again. But, in the end, if you get smart, you will finally learn that it is the abuser who has the problem.

The lucky people learn this lesson pretty quick and escape before they are damaged too badly. The more trusting ones, (or the ones who just don't give up) let it go on and on thinking they can make it all right - they can't but by the time they learn that lesson, there is nothing much left inside of them to care anymore.

As a society, I am not sure what can be done. There is a case here where I live that that is being trid right now.

Here is a little exerpt:
An Air Force officer was the aggressor the morning his wife was killed outside the couple's Ellicott home, according to the testimony Tuesday of neighbors who saw the struggle.

(*******) is facing first-degree murder charges in the Aug. 29, 1999, death of his wife, (The victim), a disc jockey and promotions director for classic rock station The Eagle.

Neighbor (neighbor 1)said (*******) appeared to be strangling his wife as she kicked and screamed for help.

He sat on top of her, and she never gained an advantage in the fight, (neighbor 1) said.

Defense attorneys say (******) acted in self-defense.

After his wife's body went limp, (******) reclined the driver's seat of her car, put her body inside, sat on it and drove off, said (Neighbor), who called 911 after watching part of the fight from her home about 120 feet away.

"Oh my God, he's sitting on top of this woman in the car," (Neighbor 2) screamed on a 911 tape played in court Tuesday.


What can society do? Society can get more involved. You don't just sit there on your fat a$$ and watch a woman get beaten and strangled. You get out there and find a way to stop it. The first 911 call was made after she was dead!! I guess it was more exciting to watch then to think about picking up the damn phone and calling the police. People need to act in these situations. If the cops come out and the trouble is over, that's fine - better to make a mistake in being to causious then to wait and let someone be dead over it. Perhaps if someone had gotten involved (there are 2 neighbors who did nothing up there) the wife would be alive and the husband could have been getting some help. Instead, the wife is dead, her 2 year old daughter is without a mother and the husband is in jail being tried for 1st degree murder.

Get involved! That's the answer - pay attention to what is going on.

Hmmm . . . guess I am not thinking about this after all.

Zebulon

Sunday, October 15, 2000 - 05:00 pm Click here to edit this post
As a society, we can say that we could have done this or we could have done that to prevent the situation listed above and similar occurrances.

The fact is that the neighborhood had one perception of this individual...while, inside the house, there was obviously another side to him. Whether he kept this anger bottled up inside or acted it out on his wife inside their home on a consistent basis remains to be seen.

You can offer all kinds of services and therapy or whatever, but if the people involved don't take the time to use these services then what else can we do? We can publicly state that it's wrong to be abusive and we can take measure upon ourselves to make sure we never do anything abusive, but you can't monitor every family 24 hours a day and know what their lives are like...at least without appearing to be nosey. It's very hard to predict when someone snaps like in the example above. Obviously, he hasn't had a history of public abuse or the neighbors wouldn't have stated that he was a great guy and a wonderful father.

Public awareness and self awareness is about all I see we can do. If anyone else has any ideas, I'd love to hear them.

Moondance

Sunday, October 15, 2000 - 05:32 pm Click here to edit this post
Under 'normal' circumstances, a person just doesn't wake up and be an abuser. If it had never happened before then there are a number of reasons ... drugs, mental illness....

More often though it is the other... It has been happening but behind close doors ... building up to the final 'break.' So maybe the were no clues to the outside world... I on the other hand feel there are usually red flags ... little ones at the least. If my friend or neighbor was in this situation, I would do what I could ... suggest good therapy/support groups ... remind her of the different options that are available and lend an ear but there is so much a person can do if the person is not willing to help themselves. As a neighbor, if I heard the domestic violence, I would have to call the police. I believe the world needs to become more aware of all that is going on.

Everything effects everyone somehow. So I believe there is always something we could do if we become aware.

I just came to post this (I write on word then cut and paste so I don't lose it) and it looks like I agree with a lot of what you said Zeb...

Arreal

Sunday, October 15, 2000 - 06:49 pm Click here to edit this post
I think we need to reach children before they become abusers. Kids who grow up abused become abusers, or victims. Kids who grow up with parents in a domestic violence situation become victims or abusers.

In many cases, the children are not required to have any sort of therapy when they come from a family with domestic issues.

I think if children who were exposed to adult abuse, whether it be adault against adult or adult against child, got counseling and help, some of the "cycle of abuse" could be stopped. We need to put a kink in the cycle and I think the children are the most impressionable and least set in their ways.

When need to bring into the public more awareness of the issue and show victims that they WIL BE SAFE, and protection is available if they leave the relationship.

People need to talk about it so the victim feels less shame. People need to learn that love and respect go hand in hand. There can not be one without the other.

The 'system' needs to take a firmer stance on abusers and provide protection based on evidence and eye witnesses, even if the victim won't press charges.

Victims have a right to fear for their lives if they leave or try to leave an abusive relationship. Historically speaking, victims of repeated domestic violence who try to leave are often killed.

Many times we as individuals can't convince a victim to leave because they doubt the protection available for them.

We need stronger punishment for the abusers.
Mandatory counseling for everyone involved, especially the children who are witness to the abuse, and we need greater protection for the victim.

Moondance

Sunday, October 15, 2000 - 07:18 pm Click here to edit this post
"We need stronger punishment for the abusers.
Mandatory counseling for everyone involved, especially the children who are witness to the abuse, and we need greater protection for the victim."

Ditto Arreal... good point!!!!

Vykin

Sunday, October 15, 2000 - 09:13 pm Click here to edit this post
Moon you said: "Under 'normal' circumstances, a person just doesn't wake up and be an abuser."
I agree, actually some really good thoughts in here. Not sure if the Host extracted this discussion topic from my internet cam address last nite, but when I saw it, I had to stop and think about the topic as well.

As moon said I agree, I think abuse is a learned characteristic. I hate to see or hear of it happening to someone. Especially if it is young people, little kids. etc. In most school systems, there are mechanisms to identify abused children, however, the difficulty is in acting upon it. You can have all the triggers in place to notify Child Services, police etc. But its always difficult to go into the home and find proof. The Home is still seen as a private domain. Even for the police. That is evident, in how reluctant society and law enforcement have been to take charge of a situation of abuse. Be it children or adults. What blows my mind, is that here we are as a society in the Year 2000. The issue of abuse has been in the public eye for probably 20 years? and still in this day and age, with all the shows and advertisements on tv about this issue, all the newspaper articles etc. - people still see it as a "dirty secret" within families. There are safe houses set up. All sorts of counselling and support groups. Yet, the abuse continues and almost escalates.

There are two forms of abuse IMHO, one is verbal which attacks the mental stability of a person and demeans them; and of course the physical, with which the worst case scenario is death. Both of these seem to always be brought on by an abuser who many times has substance abuse assisting them in the abuse, or just low self-esteem but high ego.

Finally, the police are edging closer to getting involved. Thing is u can leave an abusive situation, get a restraining order and there is nothing to stop the abuser from getting to the victim again. There must be a better way to "nail these people" and I say people, because though abuse awareness leans more toward women, abuse is ALSO carried out on men by women.

I am fortunate to have most of my family living in my area. The family is really close to each other and would "die" for one another. However, many of my extended relatives seem to turn away from a conflict. For example: I am aware of a female cousin rite now who has a live in boyfriend and apparently he abuses her. I asked someone who is extremely close to her (another family member) What are her parents, brothers and you, as her best friend, doing to try get her to get rid of this guy. The response I got was, "I can't tell her what to do, unless she says something first". I responded, "And when will the family say something, when you all are lowering her coffin into the ground?". I left it at that. I'm giving the best friend a bit of time to think about it, but certainly, I'm going to say something to the victim.

My mind is rolling now, but I better stop here for now and let someone else share their thoughts.

Moondance

Sunday, October 15, 2000 - 09:53 pm Click here to edit this post
Wow ... thanks for sharing that, you are in the mist of it, Vykin... so sorry. My prayers go out to your cousin.

You brought up a GREAT point about abuse being physical & verbal. We sometimes forget how hurtful and damaging a single word can do (of course more of them too)
Sometimes it is easier to defend yourself physically then it is on a mental playing field.

Luke

Sunday, October 15, 2000 - 10:38 pm Click here to edit this post
Another topic that's gonna take some time to gather my thoughts...

Okay... how much am I going to share on this one...?

Roger_Ramjet

Monday, October 16, 2000 - 12:34 am Click here to edit this post
I was going to have a long discussion on this, however in reading Arreal's comments, I wonder if she didn't know I wanted to say most of these things!! LOL!! It isn't a cop out on my part--she really does capture my thoughts--and she had a few I would not have included, yet should have thought of them as well.

The only perspetive I have is that of an ex-EMT. I didn't ever get a call for domestic violence on others--suicide attempts, yes (some failures, some successes on their part). When you walk into a house, you can feel things though. Some have clear evidence that you feelings are true, and some prove you to be wrong. Those are easy to deal with. It's the feelings that have no way of being verified. How would I like it if someone called the cops on me for just a feeling? A ruined reputation/life for just the accusation! How would I like it if I was that EMT who didn't call and someone was killed or hurt later from this type of problem??

No easy answers for this at all! And, yes, I admit that liability counts in our minds. have your life riuned, and see if you wouldn't like to be able to get compensated for it, because that's all it is--comensation for something you will never have back again. Yet, as a care giver, and it's not suually in the best of environments. By that I don't mean the condition of the house. I mean waht's going on all around you. If it's not DV, you have your mind focused on other things! If you don't, and something heads south, you will quickly find out what having things be screwed up really means!

I didn't provide you any answers--just a perspective. If you figure an answer out that is better than lose/lose, please spread the word--and be prepaired to win the Nobel Peace Prize!!

One thing I'd like ot bring up that hasn't been talked about too muchso far...DV (physical/or mental) against men. IMHO, society has a thought about men who say they have experienced this-and it's not a good thought. Let's see--Wuss, wimp, whiner, loser, p#ssy whipped, cry baby, candy ass. I'll stop there.

I work with a woman who loves her husband dearly. They are a great couple from all I can tell. When she jokes around with the guys in the building, she hits them, yet feels the same thing the other way is not acceptable. I asked her why it was ok to hit guys, and not to hit women in play. Her comment was; "it's ok because we can't hurt you, and as long as it doesn't hurt, there is nothing wrong with it."

I told her that I'd like to explain where I didn't agree with that. She thought I was being a wet blanket.

Seems there is still a belief that men don't feel pain, that we can make it through a rock crusher and "take it like a man". I could share some words that have been said to me that had a huge affect, and it wasn't a positive thing. I'm not going to though, because it doesn't make anyhting better. I just needs ot be known that anyone can be affected by words or by objects striking them with force.

I said it wouldn't be long--I guess you have Arreal to thank for capturing my other thoughts so very well. At least I can't be accused of not taking part!

PS--DV against animals---don't even............

Arreal

Monday, October 16, 2000 - 10:15 am Click here to edit this post
"Both of these seem to always be brought on by an abuser who many times
has substance abuse assisting them in the abuse, or just low self-esteem
but high ego. " Vykin

"I don't really know why. For me it was a control issue. I felt like I had no control over anything, my life, my family, anything. To feel control I would abuse. It gave me feelings of power and control. These feelings lasted for a little while afterwards. Then I would feel shame and guilt. I would hate myself for what I had done. Again I would feel no control so I would abuse again. The cycle never seemed to end." Paraphrased from my father, 14 years ago.

Yes, more from the life of me.

I think what my father said so many years ago is probably true for many abusers. Although I must point out, he never had a drug or alcohol problem, and his abuse was not directed towards another adult or me, that I am aware of.

Growing up in a family that was abusive, sexually, verbally and physically was unhealthy. My brother recalls my parents fighting and screaming at each, I have no memories of them ever fighting. I have memories of my "perfect family".

From the inside, I thought my family was great. I respected my parents and thought we were the normal, happy Christian family. We went to church, my father taught sunday school and AWANA.
We had missionaries from all over the world staying at our house at various times. We kids had 4-H, hockey, music lessons. No one cussed, no one drank, no one thought of doing drugs. We had family night where we would sit around and play board games or card games. The five of us would always sit down for supper at 5:30pm.

From the outside, people saw a good Christian family. Amother who was loving, generous and fun.
A father who was very sociable, personable and happy.

I thought it was weird that other kids didn't get spanked like I did. I thought I had better parents because mine cared enough to spank me.
I thought it was strange that other kids didn't have to do chores like we did. I thought my family was normal.

Now looking back, I see a brother who hid in his room most of the time. He had no friends. He was afraid of getting into trouble or being around arguing parents.

My sister was very quiet, almost tip toeing around everyone. Terrified of being too slow at thinking and too slow to find perfection.

Me, I was the black sheep. I learned that no matter what I did, I would get into trouble so I did what I wanted. I was always in trouble.

As adults, my brother has lost all three of his children. He is passive and has no real goals in life. He has no friends and no self-esteem.

My sister is a very bitter person who refuses to speak to my father. She lies so much she doesn't know what reality is. Her children are terrified of her temper and spankings. They whisper all the time.

Me, well you know all about me.

The only one of us children who had to get counseling was my sister. But she fought it all the way and lied constantly to the conselors. She got no help.

I had to see a counselor once. It was court ordered. The counselor told me that he couldn't do anything in one session so there was no help he could give me. I was fine with that.

Not one of us children in my family is "okay".
My sister is an abuser of sorts. My brother is afraid of life.

People on the outside didn't know, and had no way of knowing. If someone had only saw earlier. If we had to have counseling earlier. Things would have been different. It just doesn't always happen.

If there was anything that could have given my family away it would have been me. If a teacher had really looked into my suicidal writings and poems and said...no second grader should be writing this stuff, things might have been different. But I doubt it.

Our bruises were hidden on our butts and our backs. Our souls were crushed as small kids, and never got a chance to bee seen or helped.
Our family remained perfect to the outside world.

For us kids, the hell goes on and touches us in different ways through adulthood. for my parents, the guilt will never end. For the world who sees us, no one will ever know.

My point in sharing this...the kids have to be reached. My brothers biggest memory is of my parents fighting and yelling.

The outside world doesn't always know.

We need to continue to take the tabu away from seeking mental and emotional help as adults. We need to forgive the abusers also, and let them find control in there lives so they don't have to continue hurting those less 'powerful' then themselves.

Okay, I'm done rambling.

Vykin

Monday, October 16, 2000 - 04:38 pm Click here to edit this post
Arreal, wow, certainly explains the personalities you spoke of befoe. You weren't rambling by the way. In the beginning you referred to the abuse being a matter of "power". I was gonna comment on that when I posted, but thought I had said lots as it was. I agree, somewhere in the past recesses of my mind I recall hearing that until 70's,80's, men were seen as being in power. When women started coming out and being independent. the men didn't know how to handle it, because for centuries the roles had been clear. So, this compiled with the economic factor where in north america men lost jobs, went long periods of time without any money to bring home to the family. The self-esteem and egos of men took a big blow. Men needed some outlet to exert their power. The logical focus was to direct their anger at children. Because. children are defenseless. Children can't fight back. This was when child abuse and molestation began escalating. All because men needed to "feel like a man". Anyways I heard that quite a long time ago and don't necessarily disagree.

Zebulon

Monday, October 16, 2000 - 05:10 pm Click here to edit this post
I wanted to add that I believe neighborhood/community awareness is important and any indication of domestic abuse should be reported. The question is: How many people actually care enough to take time out of their lives to do this? Most people are too self-absorbed in their lives to involve themselves...or so it seems.

Also, if you noticed a bruise or some other sign of abuse in your neighbor or whoever and they didn't want to discuss it or brushed it off as an accident (which in some cases, it could really be) then what exactly would you do? Again, most people aren't going to pickup the phone and call the local police department over it.

Where is the line drawn when we take it upon ourselves to decide to get involved? Again, in cases like the above example, no signs of previous abuse were really given until it was too late.

Arreal

Monday, October 16, 2000 - 05:47 pm Click here to edit this post
I had befriended some neighbor kids about 5 years ago. They would come over to my home and hang out with me and an -ex. One was in 8th grade and the other was in 6th. My daughter was in 4th. these two boys were always at my house, mostly seeking adult attention. We often heard their parents screaming at each other and always knew the kids would soon be at our home. We never minded them at all.

One day the older of the two came over alone, after school. His neck was one big, black and blue mark. When I asked him what had happened he told me that the previous night he didn't get the dishes done before his step-dad got hom from work and that the man was choking him.

I had never seen any sign of abuse on the kids before, but that scared the hell out of me. I did call CPS that evening.

I was told that the school had already called them and that the family was getting counseling though the school. That was it.

I tried to help. The boy continued coming over and I kept asking him if everything was okay. he said his dad was getting counseling at the school and so was his mom. Until the mother pressed charges or got rid of the step-dad, nothing would change I told.

I still heard his parents screaming through the nights. I don't know if I made a difference. It sure didn't feel like it.

So in reality, what is a concerned neighbor to do
when children are often looked at as property and help isn't around?

I really think the system fails to protect the victims of abuse in every situation. Concerned neighbors can only do so much, and that is the sad truth.

Zebulon

Monday, October 16, 2000 - 06:09 pm Click here to edit this post
You took a step and did something about it, Arreal. At least the boy told you flatout what was going on.

A lot of these so called "programs" or "services" spend money telling people about how they can help and so on and then when someone finally does call to report abuse, they pass the buck. In this case, it was "counseling at the school". CPS should have sent someone over along with the police that same evening you called.

What does everyone else think about it?

Vykin

Monday, October 16, 2000 - 06:30 pm Click here to edit this post
Zeb I agree, millions spent saying we should do something, but when it comes to action stops there. Too much money going for workshops, advertising, etc. instead of safe homes, and getting the cps and police in.

Xenia

Tuesday, October 17, 2000 - 03:10 pm Click here to edit this post
You know, Zeb, I find your responses in this thread quite intriguing.

You seem to have a very passive/aggressive temperament. You remind me of the kind of guy who would take his girlfriend/wife to a party and be the most charming man there.

If you heard your mate say something inappropriate, you'd give her a stern look, one that said, "just wait until we get home". Then you'd go back to being charming to the others.

And then when you got home, you'd slap (or even worse) your girlfriend/wife and insistently verbally abuse her.

I'm not being sarcastic about my observation or saying this to provoke a reaction. I'm genuinely stating that I believe you are that kind of a guy.

Vykin

Wednesday, October 18, 2000 - 06:37 am Click here to edit this post
Zeb, I noticed in other areas of the house references to your post about abuse. Wondered if I missed something. Came back to reread your post, and still don't understand what all the anger is about. I thought it was accurate.

Luke

Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 10:43 pm Click here to edit this post
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