Archive through October 26, 2000
The ClubHouse: The Game - Discussion Room: General :
Do you believe in Synchronicity?:
Archive through October 26, 2000
Karuuna | Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 06:54 pm  baa baa goo goo, and more inanity. Someone get me out of here and buy me a drink. Twiggy -- the prayer studies show that it matters not which faith you are, or who you pray to -- all the major faiths work equally well. |
Bijoux | Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 07:00 pm  Twiggyish, Maybe. It was also the case that I really didn't want to live in the extreme-north. The extreme-north province in Cameroon borders on the southern most part of the Sahelian desert. High summer temperatures were 110 - 120 degrees. The Adamaoua province is a savanna plateau. High summer tempertures 80 - 90 degrees, no humidity. I'd visit friends in the extreme-north during Christmas when the weather cooled off to a balmy 85 degrees. Synchronicity because I thought that was where I belonged and it happened or premonition? |
Twiggyish | Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 07:06 pm  I am sorry Karuuna, but the prayer study doesn't make sense. I wonder if a prayer from a minor faith made them sicker..lol It would seem (in my poor laywoman language) the prayer would have to be to an entity in order for there to be devine intervention. If that is the case, would this entity then be God? Your study did not state what illnesses the patients suffered or if their illnesses were exactly the same in both studies. Was a placebo involved? I question whether science can explain or prove prayer. In proving prayer, science would then have to acknowledge the existence of God. What an interesting study! |
Karuuna | Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 08:29 pm  Hi, Twiggyish -- I'm compelled to continue this discussion even tho I swear it ties my brain in knots. Is that synchronicity or obsession? There are various prayer studies. Some of them have folks praying for plant growth - the outcome of which is that the plants that are prayed for grow better and faster. I don't know that the studies prove anything at all about divine intervention. The studies do show that it doesn't matter if you're muslim or hindi or christian or universalist or buddhist (who don't pray to God per se, they pray to the universe), the prayer still works. There's simply no correlation between the personal beliefs of the prayer and the effectiveness of the prayer. In some studies, people are given a specific prayer to use, in others, they are only given a strategy -- such as use any psychological strategy you can to promote the healing/growth of this person/plant, etc. It still works. The one study that I did use as an example was of 393 current coronary care patients. All of the 393 patients were randomly assigned to the test conditions. None of those that were being prayed for knew they were being prayed for. I don't understand your question about the placebo... nothing in the study said anything about anything other than the standard medical care, other than the fact that some of the patients were prayed for and some were not. Again, I don't know that one can extrapolate the existence of God from these studies. I think that's a different matter entirely. The fact that it works, doesn't really tell us much about how or why it works. So no one's gonna buy me that drink? Okay, I'll just help myself.  |
Elitist | Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 08:55 pm  Karuuna - On the prayer stuff what I was trying to say was that you were taking a phenomenon at the subatomic level (nonlocal events) and extrapolating it to a macro event (the prayer study). Which is like taking the subatomic tunneling to the macro level of the cat. It just doesn't work that way. It might be an analogy, but is definitely no explanation of why the prayer thing worked like it did. It is like the observer affecting the observed comment I always hear. This is really only valid at the atomic level, and mostly because to do the observation you have to interfere with the observed to be able to observe it (how is that for a lot of observe words?). It doesn't matter a rat's a$$ at the macro level. Essentially the macro equivalent of observing something at the atomic level would be like determining the shape of a bowling ball by throwing other bowling balls at it and observing how they bounce off. Not too good for the bowling ball, and definitely not to good if you drop one on your foot. And the uncertainty principle - you can't know both the position and momentum of a particle. The more you know one, the fuzzier the other gets. Apparently scientists have been able to get some gases close to 0 K where the momentum of the particle approaches 0. Then they get this amorphous material that essentially act like one huge atom instead of a bunch of small atoms (you know the momentum, but you don't know the position at all). And if you shoot a laser through it the speed of light through the material goes down to about 38 miles per hour. Think about it. |
Elitist | Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 09:00 pm  I noticed that the board guests haven't quite taken to this topic as we have. And have a drink on me Karuuna. Heck, everyone have a drink on me. |
Karuuna | Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 09:13 pm  Elitist, there you go again, making my mind even more like a bowl of noodles than before. I have to confess my degree is in psychology with minors in biochem and philosophy, so I'm way out of my league here. I'll take that drink, and raise you one. And with that I'm off to my little hot tub to stare at the stars and ponder the mysterious subatomic universe. The more I drink, the fuzzier I'll get, and wrapping that 104 degree water around me should also reduce my light speed. By then I'll have all the answers, I won't care about the answers or I'll be sound asleep.  |
Elitist | Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 09:24 pm  Karuuna, you can't leave yet. With that type of background you have to give us a good long post on looking at synchronicity, prayer, spirits, deja vu, etc. from the point of view that they are not so much physical phenomena as they are the mysterious workings of the human brain. Come on, please, please, please, please? Hope you dream of quarks and snarks, Bosons, bozos and synchronicity. And when you wake with color and charm, You know where you are with some certainty. My treat. |
Karuuna | Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 10:44 pm  Elitist -- I just can't say no to a man who begs. But I can say, you'll just have to wait till I'm ready. Thanks for the drinks, the intellectual stimulation (and resultant confusion!), and the poem. I'll write that essay for ya when I'm rested. 1000 words or less. I promise.  |
Lafatme | Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 01:13 am  i have to believe in synchronicity. it has happened on this board since the game began. during the time arreal was in the house katie and i were her biggest supporters. the game brought us together in a way i never thought could happen. because of arreal, katie and i are in love and having an affair! while i've read of things like this happening, i never thought it could happen to me! thanks neil! |
Twiggyish | Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 08:35 pm  Elitist, I am MADLY in love with you!!  |
Elitist | Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 09:44 pm  Well Twig, I must admit that the first thing I did was go to the Truth or Dare thread to see if you had got caught in a dare. But now I am certain that synchronicity has reared its head again. I have been totally taken by the dark side. Adven, it is time for you to come to the rescue in the Millenium Falcon 'cause I am hanging by a thread here. |
Adven39 | Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 10:42 pm  Sorry, Eli. There are forces at work here that I don't understand. Some might call it synchronistic. Some might say it is merely hormonal. It's why I hit the ejection seat button on this thread a little while back. I will say Twiggyish has good taste. May the force be with you. |
Noslonna | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 12:50 am  What are the chances of Queen Amidala being mother to Princesss Leia? Not to mention Leia is twin to Luke. Coinkydink? I think not. |
Fruitbat | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 04:08 am  Well, I bailed awhile back as my knowledge in physics is very limited and I had little to offer. I will interject a thought here and retreat until we exhaust the chaos theory. Take the word prayer and substitute focus. The phenomenon of which Karuuna speaks is not about religion. It just happened that the groups involved were Christian. (corrrect me if I am wrong but this is what I read) It was a group of people focusing on the healing of the patients. Their personal definition of god was irrevelent. This speaks to the theory that we all create our own experience with this same focus. We have many incidents that we ignore or chalk up to coincidense or luck. Is it really? We are back again to recognizing the gap between the provable and faith. Not in god, persay, but our own power of creating. Just thought I'd throw this out. The board is slow these days and I'm counting on this thread to move out of something I know nothing about. Selfish? You bet.  |
Ocean_Islands | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 04:15 am  Well it did get a bit esoteric in the physics area which might have been better left alone, especially since none of us are physicists that I know of, and instead of making it simpler to understand we were going for complexity. I don't think it matters if the study groups involved were Christian or not as that seems decidedly beyond the point. However, Judeo/Christianity does address prayer more than other religions. The board is slow these days? Where the hell have YOU been? I think we could explore possible connections between Jung's synchronicity idea and the power of prayer. I don't think it has much to do with physics. |
Twiggyish | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 07:55 am  Elitist, it was a dare..lol We had a fun time in chat last night. I hope you have a sense of humor, as it was meant in fun. |
Elitist | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 08:03 am  Well I thought so, but I didn't think about the T&D moving to chat, even though I saw they did that. Duh. And I must admit my heart is broken. Well I promise to post more to this thread, hopefully today, and try to keep the physics out of it. But maybe not the psychics. Later |
Fruitbat | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 09:23 am  Ocean...I have not been into the game. I came over to take a look and saw this thread. The rest of the board is a little slow. The point I was trying to make was to get rid of the word "prayer" altogether. It's conotation is religious. It implies one is evoking a power outside of and greater than themselves. Focusing energy has nothing to do with any religions concept of a judgemental, all powerful, fear evoking, in charge, what have you, god. Ones own personal concept can be applied but it is not necessary to share the same belief system. If you want to do the organized relgious trip, fine, but this is more than that. |
Fruitbat | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 09:42 am  T&D moving to chat? I am curious. |
Karuuna | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 10:23 am  Fruitbat et al -- in the studies I've seen, the words "prayer", "meditation" and "psychological strategy" have all been used to denote the act that is used to promote healing. Let me just be clear too, while the perspective of folks on this board may be primarily Judeo/Christian, prayer is not. In fact as a matter of practice, Christians pray less than many other faiths. Buddhists are encouraged to pray constantly, they even walk around with prayer wheels to remind and reinforce that concept. The studies themselves have been multi-denominational, as I said before. Not necessary to categorize them as paying homage to an omnipotent, omniscient being of any sort, nor particulary a Christian one. Now Elitist, if I write that essay you requested, the challenge will be to include enough about synchronicity to keep it on topic... still want me to take a crack at it? I owe u for the drinks!  |
Fruitbat | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 10:43 am  Karuuna...I absolutely understand what you say. Just making the point that some immediately associate the word prayer with organized religion. Just clairifying. I was attempting to head off a common misconception. There can be a hair trigger response when treading the waters of the unknown. |
Katie | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 10:53 am  Yes T or D often moves to chat because it is easier. That is where the dare for Laf was too. |
Ocean_Islands | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 10:55 am  Well bless my biscuits this thread is showing remarkable life! I don't think too many people would be confusing prayer with organized religion. I'm not sure that prayer wheels really count as praying, and prayer beads don't, either. These items are supposedly "representative" of prayers that are not actually made. |
Elitist | Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 10:55 am  Well I have a few more stories to tell, and I think they have a point. And maybe then we can get Karuuna's essay - and from where we have gone in this thread tying it into synchronicity may not be entirely necessary. Here is my first story - My Close Encounter With A UFO. My buddy and I had driven down from the University to Houston for a Doobie Brothers concert (OK this was around 1980) and decided to drive the 100 or so miles back afterwards. It was about midnight, we had the top down, probably had a few Heinikens in the car (dark only please - and at that time this was legal in Texas - go figure) and were, for some unknown reason, smoking Swisher Sweets cigars. Since I had grown up in the area we were taking the back roads, and when I say back roads, there was no-one else on the road and almost no lights in the countryside to designate farmhouses. I am sure we had been talking about UFOs - mainly because my bud claims to have seen one or two in his (at that time) short life. Well I glance out the passenger window and notice a small disc-shaped object pulsing a dark red in the field to our right. I nudge my buddy and say "What the he%% is that?" upon we both say "UFO!". Of course we were kidding but we had no idea what it was. He was driving about 70 to 80 miles an hour, and we noticed the disc keeping up with us. And we could tell it was getting closer because it was getting bigger and bigger. And it must have been using more energy or something because the deep red glow had brightened to a fiery orange. My friend was a photography buff and had his camera and wanted to stop. I told him he was crazy, don't stop now. But he did anyway and took some photos, hoping there was enough light from the craft to make a good exposure. The really spooky thing is the disc stopped when we did, then when we jumped back in the car and took off (at high speeds) it was back following us. Total elasped time was probably 10-15 minutes. I took one last look out the window, then looked at my buddy and said "You know we are total idiots - look again and you will see that is the moon". Yes boys and girls, we had let our predisposition to UFOs from our discussions color our thoughts enough that we mistook the rising moon for a UFO. Hey, we even have pictures to prove it! The point? It doesn't take much for our minds to fool us into believing something that is not real. |
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