Archive through October 25, 2000
The ClubHouse: The Game - Play Room: The Virtual House:
Living Room:
Archive Oct. 24-25:
Archive through October 25, 2000
Roger_Ramjet | Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 11:37 pm  I was going to ask your opinion on that post. Go ahead and confess my son....no wait, that's not me!! |
Luke | Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 11:43 pm  Hehehe... how ironic that you say that...! Well, I actually spent 4 years of my life studying to be a Roman Catholic priest. That's where I did my undergraduate coursework--in a Catholic seminary. I graduated and got my BA in philosophy, but I didn't continue towards the priesthood--mainly because I fell in love with one of my classmates... (Kind of a no-no on two counts, first on the celibacy thing, and second on the gay thing...) |
Luke | Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 11:46 pm  I guess I don't really mention that a lot nowadays, because in all honesty, it's something I'm not really proud of... studying for the priesthood, that is. I learned a lot about religion, about Roman Catholicism... and in all honesty... it wasn't that great of an experience. I wasn't kicked out or anything, though. I left on my own after graduating. It would have taken me 4 more years to be a priest, though... and my classmates were ordained (made priests) last year... well, 3 of them were... they were the only 3 that made it. I also found the seminary to be the worst place for a guy to come out of the closet as gay. That was the most difficult part, especially since sexuality isn't something that is addressed very directly in seminaries... or in religions like Catholicism at that... It's a pity that religions like Catholicism have such an unhealthy approach to sex and sexuality... and such abusive and demeaning position towards gays and lesbians. It's even worse knowing how many priests are gay, yet hypocritically preach against it. |
Roger_Ramjet | Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 11:48 pm  LOL! ---about me saying that. Hey, sometimes things just don't work out! I believe a person can contribute to mankind in lots of ways. |
Luke | Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 11:50 pm  Now I'm still involved in a church... as a music director... but now I don't even see myself involved in that for much longer... The more out and proud I am of being gay, the harder it gets for me to remain quiet about who I am at church. I'm out to other priests, nuns, and to a lot of my choir... but in all honesty, the Catholic Church is a great place for people who are homophobic and who descriminate against gays... So I know it's only a matter of time before someone raises the issue of me being gay... And I have so many friends who are gay and have unfortunately been fired from their positions simply because of their sexual orientation... All of this has caused me to look differently at religion... at organized religion... Roman Catholicism in particular. I've been a catholic all my life, raised in a very Catholic environment... but these last few years... being in a relationship with a guy who was homophobic himself... and who couldn't reconcile being gay and Catholic... all that has caused me to question my beliefs... and practically to erase the entire chalkboard and start again from scratch with what my basic beliefs are... Cuz a lot of what I had been taught as a child has just been wrong... Simply wrong. |
Roger_Ramjet | Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 11:53 pm  Luke, I think that every set of rules has a down side. Mine does, if I take it that way. Although I had the davantage of tailoring the rules to fit just me!! Other religions have to capture a large number of people---giving them a set of rules/standards to go by. The question becomes which is more important--the letter of the rule, or the intent of the rule??? That may be where humans have trouble with any given religion---having to come to terms with that both as individuals and as the group. Just grasping at straws here. |
Luke | Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 11:55 pm  I didn't really want to bring up the issue of religion and homosexuality up in a separate discussion or anything... I guess I didn't want to call attention to it... but a lot of my current life struggles are just around that. I have a circle of friends who are in the church... an entire choir, to be exact... and I love doing music, and I love them too... but I feel hypocritical and not true to myself in a religious environment... or at least that religious environment where I know that in principle I'm an outcast... It's kind of a tug of war... And I basically agree with almost everything you wrote about religion... or atheism, i should say. You're a very rational person, Roger, and I think that however we came into existence in this world, we arrived with a brain... and that brain ought to be used to discover things, and not simply accept everything we're told without questioning it... |
Luke | Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 12:02 am  That story you told about your boss in the grocery store... I encounter those people every day. People who are so dependent on religion as a "crutch" or as their scapegoat for doing good deeds. I think that's pretty sad... but then I also see how at one point in my life, I was exactly like that... I needed the stability of religion, and of that church environment... and if that meant denying that I was gay, then so be it... But that was f**ked up thinking... Now, I think about how much I've come full circle, and still believe I'm getting more extreme, but in the other direction. Not only in coming to terms with being a gay man, but also realizing that there isn't a "right" way to approach religion or to believe in a higher power... or even in the lack of any such figure. I don't know... maybe I'm rambling again... |
Roger_Ramjet | Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 12:04 am  Luke, one of the things I see most organized religion doing is to not say it's ok to feel what you've that right all this time is now wrong. We don't always make the right choices...and sometimes the choice is right for the time, then later things change and we need a new choice. So many people are made to feel guilty for experiencing either. One of the thinsg I've noticed about religion is that one of the few beliefs they all have in common (and I mean religions from all over the world) is the golden rule---we know it as "do one to others as we would have done to us". It seems to be a universal message in each....yet is probably the most broken concepts of all. Seems more people have been killed in reigous wars than in all the other reasons for war combined. Where was that concept all those times. It's humans doing it to each other all through history. IMHO |
Roger_Ramjet | Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 12:12 am  I'm still here! |
Luke | Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 12:13 am  Basically, things came to a huge halt last year with the end of the relationship with my first lover. I mentioned somewhere in here that it was an abusive relationship (i still have yet to add to that domestic violence thread... been procrastinating) but it also made me see a lot of things in a different light. I was still heavily involved in church... my job and my school were all church related... Then I put a screaching halt to all of that and got a Silicon Valley job... and am loving it... I feel like I've been freed out of some chains that have held me all my life--religion. Seems like a whimpy type of captor... but for some people, religion exerts a lot of control and has a lot of power. It sure did over my life for a long, long time... I just read your post, and I'm definitely in agreement. As humans there needs to be some ideals to which we must abide in order to live harmoniously, and that involves respecting others, and treating others well. I guess in regards to religion, I see a lot of my life as overly involved in religion for too long a time--in more aspects than just morals and moral formation. It was a source of stability in my life... Even when I began to grow and realize that I'm gay, I'd seek stability in a church that considers me a disorder. So when I read your story, I related with your boss (him representing me a few years ago), but I also realted with you as being what I am basically aiming for, and that is having the set of beliefs that is free from religion... |
Luke | Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 12:13 am  Sorry that last post took so long to write... hehehe |
Roger_Ramjet | Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 12:21 am  I'm not bothered by length of posts--notice mine exceed anyone else's! LOL As cheesy as it sounds, I hold that you should be able to sert up any conditions you want (or anyone else too--including those that have a religion work for them). I took the step a long time ago....at the price of being placed as a loner in society. Imagine a 15 year old being so bold as to establish his own "religion"---his own rules to live life by. I say that not to gain sympathy---I say it to show that it happens...for me at 15. For others at whatever age they choose to take steps away from the previous beliefs. It's amazing how much stock humans put into the title of their belief instead stock in how we treat each other. Go figure! |
Luke | Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 12:23 am  When I was in the seminary, I used to do a lot of travelling. Languages were my thing, and so I've picked up a few languages in my life... And when you can communicate with someone in a different language... you have a special view into the culture and environment in which that person has lived. There are so many different types of people in this world... so many approaches to life. But there are some common values--some common human values--that transcend religion. Love. Honor. Loyalty. Dignity. Trust. All humans desire these things--all of us search for them. But its a sad thing when differences separate rather than unite. Why so philosophical--well because I think that's just the point of this game... throwing 10 of us in this place that are basically different. Different relgions, different backgrounds, different beliefs... I definitely don't agree with a lot of the beliefs of the people in here... and the trick, the attracting point, I think, is how we react to the fact that we are different... How we choose to respect--or not respect--each other's differences... |
Roger_Ramjet | Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 12:27 am  That point, Luke is a key to this game...for insiders and outsiders!!! It isn't the differences that are that important...it's what we do with them that is of importance!!! |
Luke | Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 12:30 am  Oh... just for the record... i was rereading your posts... You had said "some things just don't work out"... I am 100% definitely glad I left the seminary. It was an unhealthy and hypocritical environment. It's shaped a lot of my life, though... heck, four years anywhere would... but being out and proud and not having religion as a "crutch" anymore is something I would never give up... Oh no... i'm wondering if i should call it a night... i feel that old familiar headache and sore throat... (I'm actually thinking of calling in sick tomorrow! Ssshhhh just don't tell my boss) |
Roger_Ramjet | Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 12:38 am  Luke, call it a night if you are getting the symptoms back. I wanted to direct you to a part of the chat where Zeb gave you a piece of advice from the outside--and I don't know that it's valid from what we are experiencing. He indicated that some feel you are holding back about yourself just a little bit. Note "some" and note "little bit". You can probably find it in the transcripts. He had a piece of advice like that for each--except Moon I think. take care of yousself, and hope you feel bette in the morning! Like I said in my app...life is 10% what you're given, and 90% what you do with it! I still believe it...and you may be living it! |
Luke | Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 12:39 am  Actually, roger... I do think i will call it a night... i could talk to you all night long, though, if i were feeling better... my head is killing me! (Man, I don't think I'd ever make it through Survivor) |
Luke | Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 12:41 am  I did read that, Roger... and I do think that I will be taking that advice... but honestly, not in order to please the outsiders, but especially after talking with you, I feel like this is a comfortable and safe environment to be more open... (i could be wrong, though... but what the heck... I'll take my chances! ) |
Roger_Ramjet | Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 12:43 am  Survivor...LOL A different type of challenge! Good night Luke--see you tomorrow, and we will see what nominations bring for the wait till Friday night! |
Vykin | Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 12:44 am  Hi Roger, Luke, this is such a good conversation. I am so sorry i've been tied up with trying to respond to gator and his second request to me with about 10 specific questions. then rereading chattranscripts. I want to share some thoughts on organized religion as well with both of you. Unfortunately its almost 1am I have to get to bed. But I want you to know first thing in the morning, I'm coming back to jump into this discussion. Which is fascinating for me. I will share with you some experiences I've had and seen, some negative aspects from within my own faith. I wish i wasn't so exhausted from today. But please don't lose your thoughts, at least i've caught up on your earlier conversations. Nite Roger, Luke. In passing, I want to say something to you two, also wish moon and HiMays were here. I miss some people that have left. But I feel since, Sunday, when arreal left, this house has been fantastic. I want to tell all of you, tomorrow our nominations go in. I suppose that will be the final banishment roll call. I know we all have to nominate 3 people. I can honestly say that this round of nominations will be the hardest for me cuz I truly don't want to nominate any of you. I sincerely in the past few days have enjoyed the talks we all have had THE WHOLE HOUSE! all 5 of us. Probably the best discussions. Good Night. |
Luke | Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 12:44 am  Oh... and one more thing, then I'm turning in... About being attracted to you... Well, I'm attracted to a lot of things about you, that's for sure. And to tell you the truth, if you were gay, I'd probably be exremely attracted to you. I mean, I haven't seen you, and you did once mention that you are older... but I usually find myself attracted to more mature guys--mature emotionally and mentally, but that usually turns out being chronologically as well. But, you're not gay, so just take that as a compliment rather as a pass... hehehe |
Roger_Ramjet | Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 12:46 am  Hey, what can you lose--you've only got a couple hundred or thousand people listening to your every word!!! While we feel all wrapped up in here, we are indeed in a very fragile bowl. I would challenge anyone to step in here and let it all hang out and not have a concern..... |
Luke | Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 12:48 am  and Vykin--I really appreciate your honesty, and your approach to the way you've been questioned by those people... I'll be looking forward to chatting with you more tomorrow as well... (in all honesty, this is pretty funny... i'll probably call in sick tomorrow cuz I am feeling horrible--but will spend the entire day in here chatting with all of you! Thank god my boss doesn't know about this game!) Good nite, all! |
Roger_Ramjet | Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 12:56 am  Vyk---I look forward to your thoughts on this or any subject!! I will look for your posts tomorrow, and feel we can take this up again as a grop--I bet all of us have opinions, and I'd like to hear all of them! I agree about nominations---actually I was thinking today that I'd like to see all of us up for banishment! I say that not because I feel it will help me win. (hell me not being up would help!) I think we'd feel on equal footing from each other, and would feel that the outside wold truly by the only judge...something that us voting requires us to be...a judge to some degree. Luke, I will take your thoughts as a compliment. Something I've found out is that a positive is still a positive, no matter where you stand on things. I would say the same if a married woman was attracted to me...it's not a place I would ever go, however it was still nice of tem to feel positive toward me.....hell, there are plenty that don't!! LOL! Good night my friends!! Hey Vyk--I hope Interrogator wasn't too bad on you. |
|