Archive through October 07, 2000

The ClubHouse: The Game - Discussion Room: General : General - Archives: Oct. 6-16: Who has the best take on the Death Penalty? <-- Banishment revealer!: Archive through October 07, 2000

Ocean_Islands

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 01:52 pm Click here to edit this post
Actually, Nik, I didn't imply you were not thinking. I said maybe some were POSTING without thinking.

As for the taxes argument, that holds no water as it takes more money to have the death penalty than to keep someone imprisoned for life.

Plenty of countries get along without the death penalty -- Canada, for one.

As for it being a deterrent, 20th century statistics show that states with the death penalty do not have lower murder rates than states without the death penalty.

Katie

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 01:57 pm Click here to edit this post
As for it being a deterrent, 20th century statistics show that states with the death penalty do not have lower murder rates than states without the death penalty.

He is right. In most cases, murder is not a crime of thought, but passion and people aren't thinking when they commit murder. They are commiting theft and get caught and kill to escape or they get in a fight and lose control and use the weapon they have handy to win the fight or some other things but they aren't thinking.

Ocean_Islands

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 02:10 pm Click here to edit this post
So with the tax argument out of the way, and the deterrent argument out of the way, there is only one argument left. The vengeance argument.

Fine.

All I was doing, in exploring the topic, was to test the idea that someone with vengeance on their mind may have a bad heart instead of a good heart.

Lafatme

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 02:22 pm Click here to edit this post
i don't want to get into a discussion about this but i will post a few of my thoughts.

1. when the gov't sanctions killing it reduces the value of life in the eyes of the people.

2. if the death penalty was a deterrent in texas why are there so many people on death row there? why don't they go to other states?

3. life in prison without parole is not "cushy" people refer to "the easy life" in prison, would you want it? if it's so easy why aren't more people committing capital crimes in no death states in order to live that "easy life"?

4. in a nation based on rule of law justice should be the objective, not revenge. we have a criminal justice system, not a criminal revenge system.

i'm against killing people, period! but i know better than to try to convince others to think that way.

i don't want to stand before god one day and hear "you are responsible for the actions of your government, therefore you have killed what i created" sorry, that's too big a risk to take. i ask god for forgiveness whenever a life is taken on my behalf.

when a murderer kills someone-he's responsible. when my government kills someone-i'm responsible.

Nikkid

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 02:34 pm Click here to edit this post
Facts and Figures on Crime in America....
Median time served for murder in the United States... 5.5 years
Median time served for rape...3 years
Median time served for robbery...2.25 years
Median time served for assault...1.25 years
Everyday 14 people are murdered, 48 women raped and 578 people are robbed by persons who have been caught, convicted, and subsequently released on probation or parole.
30% of all murders are committed by persons on probation or parole.
Of the 3.7 million convicted felons in the U.S., 3.2 million are on probation or parole.

Granted statistics can be spun upon, but if a smidgen of this holds up, what does that say about the *justice* being served?

Katie

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 02:43 pm Click here to edit this post
If they were put in prison without parole or probabtion that would get rid of a lot of it. I don't believe in parole and I think probabtion should only be for non violent crimes such as shoplifting and only for the first time.

Nikkid

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 02:51 pm Click here to edit this post
Then we would still be supporting them. I would rather have my tax dollars spent on education and helping the families in need. As Ocean said it takes a bunch of money for death row. But imprisoned for life? Same money for appeals and such. It's a circle jerk in my opinion. I'd rather a jury of your peers and a quick execution. I know that sounds absolutly horrid, but if I was on a jury I would have to be 100% to make that call, and I believe with todays technology that call can be made.

Azriel1104

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 03:21 pm Click here to edit this post
There are several different anti-death penalty views here. Some people seem to just be totally against the death penalty with their reason being that they don't want to put anyone to death.

It's hard for me to understand that. Perhaps, there is a black area in my heart, because I do feel a need for vengence when I think of the pain and torture that people like Ted Bundy inflicted on innocent people. I can only think of my teenage daughters and imagine them in a state of terror, the last face that they see is Ted Bundy, smiling down at their pain. The man confessed and was beyond any doubt guilty of the crimes. I think justice was served when he was put to death.


If you are afraid that an innocent person will be put to death, then I ask this - If a person has confessed to the crime or if they were caught on videotape and it's beyond any reasonable doubt, then can we put them to death? Is there room for compromise in your view? I would much rather work out some kind of compromise and be assured that at least some of the worst criminals would be removed from this world, than keep them alive and pray they don't escape or get parole.

Digilady

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 03:25 pm Click here to edit this post
As the WBs said, look at the Middle East.

I did, I lived there (Iran).

You steal, off goes the right hand. Killers are goners REAL fast. The crime rate is extremely low. One can walk the streets in peace. (As long as, being female, one wears a chador!)

So, cheap shots aside, DP as a deterrent works. Has in Europe as well (Yes, lived several years in France as well.)

Dig it. The crime here is SO bad that, in Europe, tourists are issued warnings before coming to certain states. Remember Florida and all the tourists who were whacked on the interstate? The international outcry?

Don't be so literal, though. No, Dahmer doesn't get cannibalized. Fried is good enough (although to some, they'd rather see the killer go as he helped others do the same.)

As for the "Sports" comment, you aware that some view killing as "Sport"? They even take little "prizes" after the kill.

Ahhh, them tree-huggers! <SEG>

I'd like for the folks against the DP to meet up with victims of a killer... and families of those who have been killed are equally victimized by said death.

I've seen the occasional family decry the DP, and even plead for the life of a killer. Granted. More often, I've seen families indicate a real sense of closure that a given killer has been executed: that's one individual who will never walk in society again. No escape, no parole.

Finally, what is war itself but a death penalty on a huge number of persons for political or religious reasons? So, anti-DP people must be anti-war also. Any war.

Annagator

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 03:46 pm Click here to edit this post
I started reading about all this death penalty stuff last night with the knowledge that my position is pro-death penalty. However, after reading many well formed arguments, I decided to do a little more research - maybe I've been misguided all these years, maybe I have a bad heart... I found a neutral article relating mainly to the history of the death penalty and abolishment efforts worldwide. One particular quote struck a nerve with me, and I hope you don't mind if I share it with you.

"A unique facet of the modern debate about capital punishment is the characterization of the death penalty as a human rights issue, rather than a debate about the proper punishment of criminals. Modern opposition to the death penalty is seen as a reaction to the political history of the 20th century, most notably the Holocaust"

"Capital Punishment," Microsoft® Encarta® Online Encyclopedia 2000
http://encarta.msn.com © 1997-2000 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

http://encarta.msn.com/find/Concise.asp?z=1&pg=2&ti=04AE8000

Human rights and just punishment... It's not an issue of good heart vs. bad heart, but an issue of heart vs. mind. My heart aches more for innocent victims of felons that for the felons themselves; I will continue to support the death penalty.

Thank you all for another compelling discussion.

Petunia

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 03:55 pm Click here to edit this post
Ocean, I see it as an issue of fairness not vengeance. Was the victim given a choice of having their life snuffed out or winding up with free room & board, albeit within the confines of a jail cell? The justice system is designed to punish the criminal as well as protect society. When you take a life, you forfeit your right to life. It's as clear as day in my mind.

Furthermore, I wholeheartedly support surgically castrating rapists.

Katie

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 04:01 pm Click here to edit this post
Petunia,
Castrating won't solve rape!! Not everyone uses their penis. Women rape too. Rape is not a crime of sex but of violence.

Nikkid

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 04:14 pm Click here to edit this post
Oooh the rape debate is a tough one. There are many thoughts on rape, but two that are the forefront in all debates:
Power anger/lust
Petunia you are correct - chemical/surgical castration is not effective in the anger power senario, but *is* when you are talking sexual deviency such as pedephiles. (sigh) this one is making my head spin... :)

Petunia

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 04:15 pm Click here to edit this post
Katie, it's called retribution. As for preventing rape, if snipping off their gonads doesn't work (which I believe it would, since testosterone is directly related to male aggression - which is why the majority of colts are gelded instead of being left 'entire'), I'm all for removing their penis. Does that work for you?

Your 'women commit rape, too' argument is a straw man.

Thanks for the time served stats, Nikkid.

Nikkid

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 04:19 pm Click here to edit this post
Oops, shoot me now! I'm sorry Petunia. I was directing that at Katie. :( what a great debate topic.

Ocean_Islands

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 04:26 pm Click here to edit this post
Would a woman who raped a man -- yes, this does exist -- or a boy be deserving of having her vagina excised from her body?


What about that schoolteacher who repeatedly raped her young male student and eventually had a child by him? Should her vagina and uterus be removed?

Katie

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 04:27 pm Click here to edit this post
Petunia
I think it will just make them all the more angry and more likely to rape. Rape has nothing to do with sex. It is an act of power and aggression. That is why men rape when they conquer countries or territories. Men are raped, old and ugly women are raped, babies and children are raped. The penis is only the weapon they use sometimes but not always. Other things are used also. Physical castration is not the answer. AND women DO rape! Women also rape women and girls. How would castration solve the problem with women. The answer is to stop thinking of women and children as lesser people.

Nikkid

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 04:37 pm Click here to edit this post
Ok ocean I'm officially grossed out. :)
I'm out of this part other then I agree with chemical castration for pedephiles. I think that they should be locked up as they are and should have some sort of program for sexual offenders. The statistics on sexual offenders are scary, especially the ones about the victims becoming the predators. I will share with you that I am a victim of sexual crimes - yes plural and no, I did not go to the authorities - There were far too many issues, that at the age I was, could not deal with. Ah... I have to step out of the debate now.
PS - I am NOT a predator, I advocate childrens rights. Thought I might have mislead with the statistics I was quoting.

Lafatme

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 04:54 pm Click here to edit this post
dig, just a quick reply. you mentioned the crime rate, using fla as an example. fla is second only to texas in executions. how has it been a deterrent?

also, yes of course i'm against war-are you for it?

regarding the cost of keeping someone in prison: we created money, god created people, which has more value?

i'm not a religious person but i believe that god created us and we, therefore, have NO right to destroy us. any argument beyond that is irrelevant to me. sorry.

Twiggyish

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 05:48 pm Click here to edit this post
Digi, in Iran, your neighbor accuses you of stealing and you are falsley arrested. Your hand is cut off without justice being served.
I am sorry but that philosophy is barbaric. Yes, we have a faulty system, but at least an innocent person can have the chance to prove him or herself. Your other points though on the DP are good.

As a Floridian, I have NOT seen the DP make any difference here. Our crime rate in our bigger cities has skyrocketed.

After the horrible botched executions from "Old Sparky", I began to wonder if this was a humane practice. (They now can choose lethal injection)

I think we need to ask ourselves why we have the DP. Is it to deter criminals (it fails), is it to make the criminal "pay" for their crime or is it to appease the victim's family members who are out for revenge?

Petunia

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 06:15 pm Click here to edit this post
>Is it to deter criminals (it fails),

In truth, we have no way of knowing how many lives it's saved.

>is it to make the criminal "pay" for their crime

No doubt about it - they're being punished for taking another life.

>or is it to appease the victim's family members who are out for revenge?

You call it revenge - they'd call it Justice, and they're entitled to it.

I also live in Florida and believe our murder rate would be substantially lower if our gun laws were tougher.

Twiggyish

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 07:07 pm Click here to edit this post
Petunia, I absolutely agree with your last statement about gun laws.
That had nothing to do with the DP question
though (no offense)

I don't think a criminal in Florida thinks twice before committing a crime. Does he ask himself, "Oh I wonder if this will be a death penalty crime?" So, in that case, I can't see where it has changed anything.

My question was merely to ask why we use the death penalty. Who's needs are we serving?

I think the whole system needs to be reexamined.

Also, I am all for the victim's family receiving some compensation for their heartbreak. But, I don't think killing the criminal will ever bring back their loved one, nor will it fully assuage their grief.

Petunia

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 07:22 pm Click here to edit this post
>That had nothing to do with the DP question though (no offense)

None taken - I just thought I'd throw it out there :)

Voyeur

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 09:29 pm Click here to edit this post
I don't think that any of the BG have done any real thinking about the death penalty, they're just going on what feels right to them. Vykin's "The welfare of the world is not worth the loss of one child." and Zebulon's, "Kill them, kill them, kill them!" are particularly unthoughtful, rigid, and not rooted in reality.

Guruchaz

Saturday, October 07, 2000 - 09:37 pm Click here to edit this post
What a weak perception, Voyeur. Either you believe in the death penalty or you don't. There is no "in the middle" and you just placed yourself there with your above comment.