Archive through October 24, 2000

The ClubHouse: The Game - Discussion Room: General : Do you believe in Synchronicity?: Archive through October 24, 2000

Karuuna

Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 10:51 am Click here to edit this post
Elitist - I know I've read more, but the only one I have at my fingertips is a book by Larry Dossey who did a review of the research in 1993. His book is called "Healing Words: The power of Prayer and the Practice of Medicine". He differentiates studies of petitionary prayer (praying for oneself), and two types of intercessionary prayer (when the patient knows about it and when they don't).

I have a list of studies on hand, however I have to say it's been so long since I completed my degree and looked at this stuff, I can't remember which studies included the double blinds. I do know there are ongoing studies at NIMH, and Harvard Medical School, I don't know if those resources are online. Most of the studies have been done on patient attitude and religious belief, and the links between distant, intercessory prayer and healing are relatively new.

I'll take a look on the net later this afternoon, and see what else I can find!

Karuuna

Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 10:57 am Click here to edit this post
Elitist -- I take that back, I do still have one here - on distant intercessionary prayer. It's a study done by Randolph Byrd at San Fran General Hospital of 393 coronary care patients. Prayer groups from various parts of the US were assigned to treatment groups, and the study was double-blind, neither patients, doctors, nor nurses knew which groups were assigned to which test condition.

The interesting result of this study is that patients who were prayed for did significantly better than non-prayed for patients, regardless of the distance away from their prayer group.

The study reference is: "Positive Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Paryer in a Coronary Care Unit Population", Southern Medical Journal 81, no 7 (July 1988): 826-29.

Karuuna

Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 11:19 am Click here to edit this post
Okay, now that I let myself get sucked into this thread, I can't stop. Is there a doctor in the house? Can we talk about my addictive personality?

Earlier someone posited that a possible explanation for synchronistic events was some kind of energy transference. I'd like to hold out the theory that energy is not the medium.

In quantum physics there is a phenomenon called a nonlocal event whereby two subatomic particles that have once been in contact will continue to effect each other even when they are no longer in contact, ie a change in one is correlated to a change in the other -- both instantly and to the same degree, *no*matter*how*far*apart*they*are. So far research has shown the following: nonlocal events are unmediated (do not depend on the transfer of energy), they are unmitigated (the strength of the changes does not become weaker with increasing distance), and they are immediate (they take place simultaneously).

These events are repeatable, observable and predictable. However, they are, as of yet, unexplainable.

Digilady

Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 11:27 am Click here to edit this post
Body temp?

How about spontaneous combustion?

I'm (relatively) certain that has been documented, in several cases.

(Letterman??? NO! Leno, every time. LOL!)

Wcv63

Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 11:33 am Click here to edit this post
Digilady - A watched a television show about spontaneous combustion that was dedicated to proving that there are logical and outside factors involved in all instances.

It was pretty interesting and I admit that by the time the show was over I was inclined to doubt that spontaneous combustion was real.

Bijoux

Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 11:38 am Click here to edit this post
Karuuna,

How is energy being measured?

Digilady

Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 11:59 am Click here to edit this post
Bijoux - it's measured in "jewels"

<sorry, there is just NO resistance, sometimes>

Ocean_Islands

Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 12:06 pm Click here to edit this post
Karuuna isn't that phenomena known as the Uncertainty Principle?

The charge of the particles is unknown until one of the two is measured; when the first one is measured, the other particle takes the opposite charge even though it may be miles away.

That was a good one Dig! lol

Elitist

Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 12:10 pm Click here to edit this post
And even though you have nonlocal events at the subatomic level, such events at the macro level are non-existent.

An illustration:

Wave theory and the Shrodinger wave function has an interesting outcome. If you put a particle in a two-dimensional box with the sides higher than the energy of the particle, the wave function does something interesting. Most of the probability of the particle is within the box, but there is some probability that the particle is outside of the box.

Interesting outcome. More interesting is that the result has practical applications such as tunneling electron microscopes and I believe there are some tunneling electronic circuits.

But lets take that to the macro scale. If I put you in a box, there is some probability that you will suddenly appear outside of the box. But when you go from the sub-atomic scale to the macro scale, that probability gets so small as to be insignificant (if I remember correctly there is a mass term in the wave functions).

Likewise, I think if you look at the nonlocal events you describe, the distances you are talking about when you say the phenomena are unmitigated by distance are extremely small. And taking this and translating it to the macro scale and being meaningful or likely is pretty much like taking the tunneling effect and having Shrodinger's cat walk through walls.

Of course we could put Leno in a box and see how long it takes him to appear outside of the box. And we would have to take into account the extra mass from his chin.

And Digi - spontaneous combustion? Sure if you leave a bunch of oily rags in your garage you might see this, but in humans? Show Me The Money!

Bijoux

Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 12:17 pm Click here to edit this post
Digi, You funny lady.

Elitist

Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 12:51 pm Click here to edit this post
Well I have done a little reading on Chaos theory and wanted to share the following:

Chaotic Systems are not random. They may appear to be. They have some simple defining features:

1. Chaotic systems are deterministic. This means they have something determining their behavior.

2. Chaotic systems are very sensitive are very sensitive to the initial conditions. A very slight change in the starting point can lead to enormously different outcomes. This makes the system fairly unpredictable.

3. Chaotic systems appear to be disorderly, even random. But they are not. Beneath the random behavior is a sense of order and pattern. Truly random systems are not chaotic. The orderly systems predicted by classical physics are the exceptions. In this world of order, chaos rules!


In short chaotic systems can be investigated and equations built that model them. The difference is that traditionally there were only thought to be three types of systems - static, periodic, and random. The chaotic systems introduced a fourth type of system that did not fit the static or periodic model but still had some structure within them that could be modeled.

Now how does this relate to our earlier conversation. Guess I will have to go back and look.

Affinity

Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 12:52 pm Click here to edit this post
I have to take a class in Chaos Theory coming this January. I can share my thoughts after then ok

Max

Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 01:53 pm Click here to edit this post
Well, I'm waaayyyy behind here, but I thought I'd butt in anyway and share. :)

I prefer to call these kinds of occurances 'small miracles'. Here's one of my experiences. Not earth-shaking, but still...

A friend and I were travelling in Europe together. It was the first time either of us had been there. We were daring and drove all over the place, through Germany and Austria, then flew to London and drove around England, ferried to Ireland, and so forth.

By the time we got to London, it was apparent that we needed to ship some things home. Shopping was great, but carrying everything around was a drag! We looked up the local DSL office, consulted our trusty map, and started out. She drove and I navigated.

Unfortunately, our communications got a bit messed up and we got off the freeway at the wrong exit. We were in a great part of London, but we didn't know where we were on the map. Traffic was a bear, of course, so I tried to pinpoint our location and she kept driving. Fortunately, neither of us paniced. We just figured we were taking the "scenic route."

We turned a corner and right in front of us was a DSL truck. My friend was starting to feel a bit frazzled, what with driving on the 'wrong' side of the road and all that, so she said, "I'm just going to follow this guy!" I pointed out that he might still be making deliveries and we could end up with a complete tour of the city, but she said, "to heck with it, I'm following him!"

I'm pretty laid back when on vacation, figuring everything has the potential of being an adventure, so that started sounding pretty fine to me.

Anyway, we followed that truck and before you knew it, he pulled right into the DSL ofice where we needed to go!

That kind of thing happened the whole three weeks we travelled. Every time we thought we were lost, we just went with the flow and the next thing we knew, we were right where we were supposed to be. Maybe it was just being open to the larger Karmic ebb and flow of the universe. Maybe it was because we didn't get crazy about it all. Maybe it was guardian angels watching over us. I don't care. It was a grand vacation. :)

Bijoux

Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 02:13 pm Click here to edit this post
I brought up chaos theory in an attempt to open up some discussion on how we could try and determine whether synchronicity exists or if the events people claim are examples of synchronicity are just coincidental, random events. Since I had done some reading in chaos theory, the concept of order in what appeared chaotic seemed an option.

The other issue that would need to be addressed though is what would we be modelling with chaos theory. What is the cause of synchronicity? Is it human energy? Is it something else? I don't know. I do believe that synchronicity does it exist though because . . . .

My story to follow

Ocean_Islands

Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 02:22 pm Click here to edit this post
It may very well be a chaotic system.

The best way to understand a chaotic system is to think of the weather, which is exactly that.

Affinity

Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 02:26 pm Click here to edit this post
..or the stock market

Adven39

Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 02:28 pm Click here to edit this post
or the mole hunt

Affinity

Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 02:30 pm Click here to edit this post
or Ocean Islands for that matter

Bijoux

Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 02:31 pm Click here to edit this post
When I received my invitation to the Peace Corps it was stated in the letter that I would be working with small enterprise development in the Extreme-north province of Cameroon. When I showed people on a map of Cameroon where I would be working, I would point to the Adamaoua province. Even though a couple of people did point out to me that the letter said I would be working in an area two provinces away, I maintained that I would be working in the Adamaoua province.

When I arrived in Cameroon I spent six weeks in language training and six weeks in technical training. About three weeks after I arrived I decided that it would be really nice if I could work with a woman boss because 1) I wouldn't be hit on (I had already had 2 marriage proposals by this time) and 2) I figured that any women working in a supervisory position in Cameroon would be twice as qualified as her male counterpart.

During technical training we found out where our posts were. Three posts were in the extreme-north province, one was in the Adamaoua province. The one in the Adamaoua province had a female supervisor who had more education than anyone else in that office. The post was a last minute change and had only been finalized a week before technical training started. I was posted to the Adamaoua position.

Since then I've had a number of experiences where I just "knew" something, even though all evidence existed to the contrary.

Karuuna

Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 05:48 pm Click here to edit this post
Ocean - uncertainty is a bit more complex than that. I apologize in advance for this clumsy explanation, but it has been a few years since I did the physics thing. Anyway, it has more to do with the description of properties possessed by a certain entity, that pairs of the classical descriptors (position, energy, momentum, charge, etc) are interrelated, and cannot be simultaneously described in a precise way. The more we try to impose a particular descriptor, the more its related concept becomes uncertain, and the precise relationship between the two concepts is defined by the mathematics of the uncertainty principle.

For example, if one tries to measure precisely the position of a particle, the momentum of the particle becomes hazy.

Is that esoteric enough for ya?

Karuuna

Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 05:54 pm Click here to edit this post
Elitist - in response to your comments about nonlocal events, and their improbability when taken to the macro level...

I see your point, but your examples are dealing with the changed location of a large physical entity. But I'm applying that a bit differently re the studies about how prayer can affect a patient's recovery, when the prayer is not known by patient, or doctor, and the recovery effect is not mitigated by the distance that the prayer group is from the recipient. This is not quite the same as moving a cat out of a box.

I'm just thinking out loud here...

Ocean_Islands

Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 06:15 pm Click here to edit this post
Principally because one involves the physical world and the other the non-physical world, which brings us right back to Synchronicity and the difficulty encountered in even trying to approach a way to design an experiment to test it.

Regarding the uncertainty principle, I gave the baby physics version, Ka, you gave the adult version. Ba ba goo goo. That's so much easier!

Karuuna

Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 06:35 pm Click here to edit this post
I'm going to regret this later, but as I think about this more, more comes back to me.

As I recall, one of the conclusions from uncertainty is that we *cannot* be an impartial observer, since the act of measuring changes the properties of the entity. Thus in studying the phenomena, we have an effect on it -- which changes a fundamental notion of science, that is that objects are totally distinct from each other. Rather it leads to a scientific view that the universe is better understood as an interconnected web, with actions in one area of the universe having a kind of ripple effect thru the entire universe...

I'm going to stop now, all this complicated thinking gives me a headache. Actually I'm much better at inane, meaningless banter.

Ocean_Islands

Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 06:44 pm Click here to edit this post
I'm not sure if 'impartial observer' is correct; I don't think that making a measurement indicates impartiality. It does, however, indicate interference. But that's what I was saying earlier on when I said that the particles were defined only when one was measured.

I'm not sure what this has to do with synchronicity but it is yet another mystery. I'm not sure if I addressed, days ago, the fact that both quantum physics AND the theory of relativity cannot BOTH be true. Which is correct? Einstein didn't like quantum theory. This is one of the greatest conundrums of all.

Ok, you can try some baby talk if you want!

Twiggyish

Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 06:47 pm Click here to edit this post
**Dusting off my old Physics book and looking up Chaos Theory**
I see this discussion going in many directions.
Karunna, your prayer study did not mention which religion was involved.
Bijoux, wouldn't your incident be a called a premonition? I wonder how scientists explain it. (Premonition)