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Archive through April 13, 2004

The TVClubHouse: Archives: Survivor All-Stars: General Discussions: Game? Not a game? Game? Not a game. : Archive through April 13, 2004 users admin

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Seamonkey
Member

09-07-2000

Monday, April 12, 2004 - 12:22 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Tobor, I think to some people, everything is "the game"; LIFE is a game, all's fair in love or war, it is all in the fine print, complicated, not straightforward.

And for others it is all about feelings and people and the intent of things and goodness and honor.

For this group, you don't take advantage of things that are offered to you if you know it will be hurtful to others, or to another relationship, etc.

All I know is I could never be on a game like Survivor (well I fall in with the Pope where age and lack of physical prowess would do me in anyway) because I'm too honest for my own good in situations like that.

(I think that some "games" like The Amazing Race can be played with honor, though that isn't the case with every team on TAR)

Caycaye
Member

09-14-2001

Monday, April 12, 2004 - 12:38 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Once again, I must say that I agree 100% with Lancecrossfire. Yes, Cassie....I too, was taken aback at the arrogance of Lex's comments to Ethan about his grace at exiting. It seemed out of character for Lex to say that to a friend, and I hoped then, as now...that Lex meant something nicer than how it sounded to us. I was disappointed for sure in Lex's condescension. But....for anyone to say that those words were comparable to Rob LAUGHING at and ridiculing those unfortunates who have trusted him over and over....I say...NO WAY is it the same....

As Kathy said...there is something about Rob that shows it's ugly head from time to time...and I say...it is a weakness of character. I will be VERY disappointed if his reward for such behavior is to win this game or even come in second.

Lancecrossfire...again, you very eloquently have expressed my feelings about Survivor completely.

Bonzacat
Member

07-08-2003

Monday, April 12, 2004 - 12:45 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Tobor... Tobor!!!
TPOJ

[I can't believe I wander into TVCH for the first time in months and I am drawn to your thread... like a moth to a flame...]

Tobor7
Member

07-19-2002

Monday, April 12, 2004 - 1:26 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Must have been FATE Bonza. Glad to see ya!

Keep in touch. <tpoj>



Brenda1966
Member

07-03-2002

Monday, April 12, 2004 - 1:43 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
What a great discussion! I agree with Cassie about Lex's cruel remark when voting out Ethan. (I think that comment was worse than Rob laughing at the camera since it was directed at Ethan.) I also agree with Azriel's posts about Lex talking out of both sides of his mouth.

First and foremost Survivor is a game. Yes, real life creeps in as they develop relationships and try to survive the elements, but since it is first a game I don't think it's fair to call foul when someone's feelings get hurt in the game. Lex cries "business" when he's the one in control yet ends a friendship when he's on the losing end of business. He lost sight of the game and can't admit it.

The only unfair part was Boston Rob asking for the favor. Not fair in a game situation and Lex was a fool to go for it. If Lex feels this game play is enough to end a friendship over, I think that says more about Lex's self-rightousness and inability to forgive than it does about Rob's form of friendship.

Yankee_in_ca
Member

08-01-2000

Monday, April 12, 2004 - 1:46 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Lancecrossfire is cool.

Mocha
Member

08-12-2001

Monday, April 12, 2004 - 1:48 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Well then according to Tobor's post put me in league with the bad people or wrong people or however you categorize people like Brian, Richard, and Rob M because I seperate the game from life. It's business, not personal. I'm there to win the money just like the other Survivors or BB'rs or any other reality show game'ers. So I guess this Indian is rooting for the other Indians or whatever.

Yankee_in_ca
Member

08-01-2000

Monday, April 12, 2004 - 1:49 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Mocha is cool.

Lancecrossfire
Moderator

07-13-2000

Monday, April 12, 2004 - 1:55 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Thanks Yankee--I don't feel or look very cool after spending an hour doing stairs--lol.

Mocha, I think if a person really is able to separate a game like Survivor from real life, rooting for a person who lies, cheats and backstabs isn't a bad person themselves.

I think the perspective a person takes into the game has a lot to do with such things. For me, Brian has been the only one to approach it as only a game so far. Not even Rob or Hatch has taken it "only as a game".

But it's also for the people watching it to decide how it is for them.

Cassie
Member

07-15-2000

Monday, April 12, 2004 - 2:14 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
But Lance, what if Brian was just an empty shell of a man with no real emotions to begin with, LOL?? Sometimes I think he might just have been "being himself", you know?

I'm with Mocha on rooting for the Indians on this one. I usually hate to see the unethical winning but for some strange reason, I don't think I would mind Rob and Amber winning this one. I have really enjoyed seeing Rob's tribe enjoy themselves on this Survivor, something I don't recall ever seeing before.


Lancecrossfire
Moderator

07-13-2000

Monday, April 12, 2004 - 2:19 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Cassie, he may well approach much of life that way. We may never know that one for sure. It was a certain that he approached Survivor that way--lol.

He wouldn't even allow himself to be distracted in any way while his wife was there during "the loved ones visit". I was impressed how he stayed focused--it sure worked well for him.

Cassie
Member

07-15-2000

Monday, April 12, 2004 - 2:26 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Indeed it did, but it's very strange how he just disappeared into the ethereal with nary a word, or vie for fame, isn't it? Anybody know what became of him and what he did with his million? I had actually forgotten he even existed until you used him as an example Lance!

Mocha
Member

08-12-2001

Monday, April 12, 2004 - 2:26 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Actually Richard and Rob M approach it as just a game. And I don't consider it bad if you lie or backstab in this game and no one has cheated.

Lancecrossfire
Moderator

07-13-2000

Monday, April 12, 2004 - 2:40 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I would agree that no one has cheated--the rules to Survivor are, well, minimal as far as what's allowed to play the game.

Just like in life though, in most work places it's not against the rules to be critical of others and to point out their bad points to make yourself look better--including stretching the truth to some degree. I do not agree with that approach even though allowed.

Cassie, Brian was offered a spot in ASS, although wanted to be paid for the appearance. He stated after he won the million it was intent to turn it into more millions--he didn't say how, just that he was going to do so. He has approached Survivor as very much a game--a business proposition. He never did refer to his fellow players as anything more than the people he played against--no mention of a friend, a connection of any type.

I would disagree about Rob approaching it as just a game. Hatch maybe--I'll have to give that further consideration.

Tobor7
Member

07-19-2002

Monday, April 12, 2004 - 11:28 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
First of all I'm not saying take out the liars and such. I'm willing to stipulate that it makes for good TV at times.

I'm also not favoring one player over another or one style of game play over another with THIS discussion. I'm not saying some are bad people or wrong people. (Yes the Indians root for the Indians... but I ask you... who rooted for Frankenstein? Someone must have rooted for him to ratchet-up the killing and mayhem I suppose.)

I don't consider it unacceptable if someone lies or back-stabs in the show. Happens in real life all the time. If it didn't happen on the show then it wouldn't be realistic.

This is an on-going discussion and I am just offering up some more evidence. The evidence is Lex's interview. (Take another read of it at the start of this thread.)


As student(s) of human behavior, we extrapolate general guidelines from the behavior we experience and watch. We then apply this knowledge when we confront it (or recognize it) again. Each instance leaves an impression.

You don't need to know a lot about someone to gage how they will react when you do something to them, although sometimes they react differently than you anticipated. That is not their fault. It is your fault. You didn't pay attention.

The patterns of individual human behavior are usually predictable. The producers of the show apply this during their casting process. They don't want a full cast of liars. That would be boring. They don't want a full cast of nuns either, as that would be boring. The interaction between nuns and liars IS interesting. They want to mix it up. Every good story needs a hero and a villain. They CAST for it.

A good FBI profiler can profile a murderer based on past actions to the point of predicting the next crime without EVER even meeting the person. The show producers profile the cast as well. We the viewers do the same thing in our own way. We look for traits that we recognize and use those observations to form an opinion. So do the players themselves.

The one thing I do not like is the people that use the EXCUSE "it is just a game" to play off their behavior.

Lex's interview is a candid and telling confession. I think he is speaking from the heart. If he said, "it was just a game" and it didn't bother him at all, I would think that was a lie.

Any competition that involves grey rules and a wide range of free will, compounded with extended time and poor living conditions can't be thought of as just a game no matter what they call it. There is just too much human passion involved.

And Lex's interview supports that.



Caycaye
Member

09-14-2001

Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 2:24 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Cassie....Brian has a regular column in "The Enquirer" where he gives his opinions each week on Survivor. He did it for Pearl Islands and now for All-Stars. If you read it regularly, like I do....it shows, in my opinion, how little respect Brian has for most people, and how he generally only admires those that are sneaky and unscrupulous. He ridicules most sweet-natured people as "fools" etc....It hasn't endeared me any more to Brian than when I was watching him on his own Survivor series.

But one thing that I noticed about Brian's opinion of All-Stars....even HE is disturbed by Rob's arrogance. He feels that it may be Rob's undoing in an otherwise brilliantly played game. (I hope Brian is right about the undoing part...I am not so sure about Rob's brilliance though)

I still can't abide Rob's mocking attitude to the cameras about those that he does wrong. I just don't like his type.

Tobor7
Member

07-19-2002

Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 2:37 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Cay,

From what you've observed, if you were on the show and didn't see Rob's pvt camera stuff, what character trait(s) of his would tip you off about him?



Justalittlebean
Member

08-15-2003

Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 5:44 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I think soon as Rob opened his mouth I would figure out his character traits.

Rupertbear
Member

09-19-2003

Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 8:25 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I think the bottom line for some of us in this 'it's only a game', let them lie, backstab, whatever is necessary to win....well, we find it very difficult to believe that this is not their true character being revealed to us.

Take someone like Pascal, the Judge for instance....it would be a total suspension of disbelief, to think he would be able to play like Rob, Brian or Richard, just for the game, then go back to his 'real' character.

I think these people are this way in real life and it just hard to swallow that attributes such as this are being rewarded.



Yuhuru
Member

09-27-2001

Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 9:49 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I think it's possible to lie in this gane and be an honest person outside of the game. I'm very honest in my life, and I believe I'm loving and compassionate. But I'll tell you right now after watching all of these episodes of Survivor, I would lie my butt off to win. If I'm going to subject myself to the physical challenges and gross food, then I'm going to do ALL I can to win. I would lie to my mama to win. But I don't lie to my mama. Even as a teen, I didn't lie to my mama. Not only would I lie, but I'd wrestle with her under water for a pot.

People who play Survivor expect to be lied to and tricked. They just think so highly of themselves that they believe that they'll be able to recognize the deception, but often they don't, and then they're pissed. This is All Star for crying out loud !!! They were all lied to the first go around, and they all lied(or were deceptive) the first go around. They've all demonstrated arrogance at one time or another. They've all said mean things about obe another.

If Lex felt betrayed initially, I could understand it. It is a little gray because of their friendship. However, I do believe it's only a game. I know the show is heavily edited, but Lex didn't say that he would keep Amber because Rob is his friend. He and Kathy said that Rob would be pissed and would seek retribution(my words). He planned to cash in on the favor later. He did it for strategic reasons IMO.

Right now, he looks like a whiny baby all over TV complaining about Rob. Sour grapes, I say. I'm glad he's gone.



Mocha
Member

08-12-2001

Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 9:56 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
That's what I was trying to say Yuhuru but you were much more eloquent than I was.

Brenda1966
Member

07-03-2002

Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 10:27 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
You said it well Yuhuru. Lex did weigh how keeping Amber would benefit him strategically. He talked with Kathy about the strategy. He talked with Jeri about it. If this had truely been a "friend favor" then why all the discussion about strategy? As soon as the strategy failed, then it was all about friendship and betrayal. Lex is a poor sport.

Calamity
Member

10-18-2001

Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 10:35 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Sure it's a game - but that means different things to different people.

While I won't fault Lex for feeling "betrayed" by Rob, I will say that the only person Lex has to blame for his exit is himself. That's what happens when you gamble - sometimes you win, more often you lose. He was in a weak position because of strategy decisions he made earlier in the game.

P.S. I almost always root for the Indians!

Spear
Member

08-06-2001

Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 11:46 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I agree that lying in the game shouldn't necessarily reflect on a person's true character. But what about how you act in confessionals? Is there any reason an honest person would lie or pretend to be a jerk in private? Is that still part of the game? I think one could make that claim for old seasons of Big Brother but not for Survivor.

Some people think that Johnny Fairplay was still playing a character in his confessionals, as a way to promote his career in pro wrestling. That may be true and a lot of contestants (unfortunately) see reality shows as a springboard for a career in showbiz. However, I don't think most Survivor contestants are playing a character in these private sessions. Sure, the producers ask leading questions. Sure, they edit these clips so they can be misleading, but these contestants know that by now and they know that anything they say could be seen by millions of people.


Caycaye
Member

09-14-2001

Tuesday, April 13, 2004 - 3:18 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Hey Tobor....

From observation (as if I were one of the contestants and not privy to camera confessionals) I probably WOULD be fooled by Rob...but also, there is a part of me, that if I had been in Tom's position the day that Rob was ridiculing Rupert behind his back about being obsessed with the best fishing ability....a red flag would have gone up in my head...things like that always lead me to ponder someone's true character. When someone acts differently behind someone else's back, I always think, "what must he say about my flawed self?" I don't trust people like that. Maybe most of the contestants aren't privy to Rob's true feelings and that is why they trust him so much. I don't know.

And Yuhura....I agree with you on Lex's behavior. I was very disappointed in his actions during and after he was kicked off, especially after being so smug and condescending in his remarks when his "friend" Ethan was voted out....but I STILL do not like or respect Rob's "game" playing, because I DO believe that it is his true character that we see....and I find him sorely lacking in principles.