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Archive through May 10, 2004

The TVClubHouse: Archives: Survivor All-Stars: General Discussions: Game? Not a game? Game? Not a game. : Archive through May 10, 2004 users admin

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Puzzled
Member

08-27-2001

Monday, May 10, 2004 - 6:56 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Lex and Kathy turned on one of their team to save Amber, so I don't see how they can be so holier-than-thou about Rob.

As for Rob's apology to Tom, he said, "IF I hurt you... That's not much of an apology, IMO.}

Pascalle
Member

09-25-2003

Monday, May 10, 2004 - 7:51 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Ah, Puzzled, but the holier than thou people always behave like Lex and Kathy and Alicia when things don't go their way. The bad part is they always find their way into really good reality shows and start pointing their sharpened little fingers, it's all they have. There is no excuse for their <NK>. Amber/Rob won, they played to win and that's what occured. No amount of whining will change that.

Wendo
Member

08-07-2000

Monday, May 10, 2004 - 8:00 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Howdy Tobor!

Well, after this season of Survivor, I have re-evaluated the Game, Not A Game theory. And, after re-analysis, I now understand what you're trying to say regarding this idea.

While in many ways I agree that competions and game shows such as Survivor are only games in many ways, it's apparent for some of the participants that it is, indeed, more of a game.

This is especially so with Survivor All Stars since many were friends prior to playing. In previous Survivors the competitors were strangers. Not so this time around.

While many feel that personal feelings shouldn't enter the equation in games such as these, the fact that we are human beings with emotions and feelings beget this. Emotions and feelings will exist, some will get hurt and feel angry. Throw in the fact that these specific competitors were friends (some even close friends), it's ridiculous to assume that emotions won't be involved.

I think it's very easy to sit on our side of the computer/tv screen and judge those who are entertaining us. As Jeff Probst said, while they are game players, they are human beings as well. I admit, I forget that when I watch these shows.

I think another thing to remember is everyone has a different moral center and how far we are willing to stray from it. For Kathy or Rudy, to play the game like Rob, they couldn't do it. However, for Shi'Ann and Rich, it would be no problem. That's not to say one way is right or wrong.

Perhaps it's best to say, play the way you want, but prepare yourself for the fact that your fellow teammates may not approve and, therefore, could take issue with what you're willing to do to win a game. Further, if you're playing with friends, one must be willing to accept the consequences should that friendship be damaged in the process.

I also want to add that I think Kep421 makes a good point. Because Lex and Kathy were friends with Rob, they expected him to respect them. I don't think Lex and Kathy have a problem with Rob making the final two. I think they take issue with the fact that he stomped on them to do it.

I think BB this year will be interesting for me. LOL!

Brenda1966
Member

07-03-2002

Monday, May 10, 2004 - 8:33 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I agree with Pascalle, Guine, and Cassie.

I was embarrassed for Tom and Lex at the final TC. They acted like school kids. I was a bit moved by Kathy's speech as I think I understand her feelings better. She was expecting a warm welcome and comraderie in Rob and he kept his game face and kept his distance.

I don't think Rob apologized for his game play, he apologized for hurting feelings as he didn't realize how personal everyone would take this game. I think he held up well after that beating at TC.

Lex's response that Colby, Ethan, and Jerri were fair game to vote out because they "weren't in my plan" is a joke. Lex, you weren't in Rob's plan either!

Puzzled
Member

08-27-2001

Monday, May 10, 2004 - 9:05 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
True, Pascalle--those types are never wrong. They're just so perfect.

Cassie
Member

07-15-2000

Monday, May 10, 2004 - 9:08 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I'm beginning to feel that Lex could use some serious counselling. Something just seems way off kilter with the man over and above his apparent need for the dramatic, i.e. the tattos, the mohawk, the leopard dyed hair, and now the purple hair. His anger toward Rob was just too way over the top, just as his reaction to ONE vote in Africa was. And yes, Brenda, his reply about it being ok because they "weren't in my plan" was a joke it was so self-righteous and arrogant. He behaves like a little pouty napoleon.

Wendo
Member

08-07-2000

Monday, May 10, 2004 - 9:34 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Cassie, the point Lex was trying to make, as well as Kathy, is that Rob asked something of Lex as a friend and not as a competitor. Rob said, take care of her and I'll take care of you. He didn't say he'd try, etc.

The way he said it to Lex was as a friend. When Rob didn't follow through, as a a friend, he felt betrayed.

With Colby and Ethan, not once did Lex make an alliance with Colby and Ethan. Before votes, they talked about who to vote. But the three of them never had an alliance; Lex never promised them anything.

While it may be subtle, Lex voting out Ethan and Colby differs from Rob voting out Lex. Lex was given a promise by a friend and that friend didn't follow through with it.

One may disagree with Lex, but they are his feelings nonetheless. How this makes him a sore loser (or the others because they were mad) confuses me. They're his feelings, how are his feelings wrong? If you were as good a friends with Rob as Lex was (and from what I've read, they were extremely close), and Rob broke a promise he made you (despite it being a game), who knows how you'd feel.

I find it interesting that people insist that Rob played the best game and deserved to win. If he deserved it, then he would've won. Survivor is more than a game of competitions. It's a social game as well. Rob played that part of the game horribly. Jury members voted out of the game, by him, felt angry and betrayed. That's not playing a good game at all, imo.

Sbw
Member

08-09-2000

Monday, May 10, 2004 - 9:40 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Wendo, I agree with you about Lex meant and how his feelings were hurt. I was beginning to think I was the only one that saw it that way.

Cassie
Member

07-15-2000

Monday, May 10, 2004 - 9:52 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Wendo the point I'm trying to make is that Lex was able to separate friendship from the game with ethan and jerri (allegedly very close to both.) He could easily have done likewise with Rob and told him "Sorry, bud, no can do!" IMO he kept Amber because the move suited his strategy. I'm surprised at your confusion as to why people see him as a sore loser. Did you see his behavour on the jury, at the final tribal council and at the reunion last night? I don't see how his voting out Ethan, Colby and Jerry is any different from Rob voting him out, and neither did the thousands of people in the Gardens last night based on their booing him. I guess it's all a matter of opinion, Wendo. Bottom line is Rob and Amber were the last two standing. They won. Therefore, it's self-evident that they played the best game. No-one can logically deny that.

Brenda1966
Member

07-03-2002

Monday, May 10, 2004 - 10:02 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I think Lex wins first prize as Survivor's sore loser, but I don't think that means he shouldn't have hurt feelings or feel betrayed. What I see as Lex's problem is his inablility to examine his own playing.

* He isn't losing with grace, but he made some snarky comment to Ethan while voting him out about losing with grace.
* He talked about how keeping Amber was strategy.
* He does a favor to gain a favor and measures the payback.

Rob bluffed and Lex fell for it. Rob was playing the game hard. Totally different expectations from both about how friendship would work in the game. I'm just disgusted by Lex's over-reaction to the game play and his "I'm not gonna be his friend" reaction. If they really were that good of friends, you may express your disappointment like Kathy did, but you don't throw it away over a game.



Tobor7
Member

07-19-2002

Monday, May 10, 2004 - 10:55 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Nice to see you Wendo.


Yuhuru
Member

09-27-2001

Monday, May 10, 2004 - 11:12 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I think Lex is a sore loser. He talks alot about friendship, but true friendship doesn't end with one misstep. At TC, Rob apologized. It was at that point that as a friend, Lex should have started the forgiving process. Instead he's still whining and complaining. He's playing a victim and wants everyone to say he's right. I believe that it's okay for him to initially have hurt feelings, but it doesn't seem he's working to get over it(there's no way for me to really know this of course).

And I also don't believe that he asked Lex to keep Amber as a friend. I friend may say something like "please keep Amber around I'm really into her." and leave it at that. Rob offered Lex a deal-if you do this for me then I'll do this for you. That's something that a game player would do. I can understand Lex not seeing this point of view at first, but by now he should be starting to get passed this.

I'll just add that I'm not a fan of Rob. So I think I'm being objective :-)

Cpmfinster
Member

12-01-2003

Monday, May 10, 2004 - 11:25 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Regarding the "favor" Lex did for Rob.

The last words Boston Rob said to Lex were: "If I can"

You could hear it last night when they showed it. It was subtle, but it was there from the very beginning.

So, IMO, it was never a "promise" to begin with. You can't break a promise you never made.

Lex is blind to this and has selective memory that only supports his position.

Ketchuplover
Member

08-30-2000

Monday, May 10, 2004 - 11:54 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
A player surprised is half beaten. That quote is from chess but I think it applies to any game.

Spear
Member

08-06-2001

Monday, May 10, 2004 - 2:11 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I think you're wrong Cpmfinster -- Rob's initial statement to Lex was to save Amber "if *you* can". He didn't qualify his promise to save Lex. When Rob told Lex that he was breaking the deal, that's when he fudged and added the "if I can". However, even Rob doesn't claim that he didn't really make a deal with Lex. In fact he was quite happy to brag in confessionals and to his brother that Lex was a fool for believing him.

I do see the distinction that Lex makes and it makes sense. However, notice that Lex never claims that he didn't backstab Jerri. He did have a deal with Jerri and they did turn on her. Lex pretty much admitted that in his Early Show interview. I don't know why Jeff didn't call him on that instead of on what happened to Rich, Colby, and Ethan.


Guinevere
Member

03-15-2001

Monday, May 10, 2004 - 2:12 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Yuhuru makes a good point. If Rob wasn't a good friend to Lex, then Lex, with his refusal to forgive and continued nastiness in interviews, hasn't been much of a friend to Rob.

It's been said before in this thread (on this page, even), but, just to reiterate - there really wasn't much indication, I don't think, on the show, that Lex's decision to keep Amber was due to his friendship with Rob. Rob's words to Lex seem to me to be ambiguous - I suppose Lex could see them as a personal plea, but "I'll take care of you, if I can" sounds more like a deal within the game. And IIRC, nothing in the edited show after that conversation indicated that Lex's and Kathy's decision was based on anything other than strategy.

I like some things about Rob and dislike others, but I'm beginning to feel that he's been more sinned against than sinning, for all his machinations. Particularly in this instance - I really believe his plea to Lex was very impulsive and based on his personal attachment to Amber, and that he did not have time to think about the consequences. The fact was, it really wasn't a promise he could keep, not without sabotaging his own game. So, in the strictly moral interpretation of the game, he shouldn't have made it, but I think it was actually one of his less calculated betrayals, for all that it's become such a big deal.

Lancecrossfire
Moderator

07-13-2000

Monday, May 10, 2004 - 2:31 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Something Rob needs to realize--he has lied so much AND so well that he can't expect anyone to believe anything he says.

No matter what he feels, no matter what he thinks about everyone, he has no room to be bothered if no one ever believes a word he says.

The game of Survivor allows a person to lie--it doesn't require it. A person has to take responsibility for the way they choose to play the game--including any fall out.

Pascalle
Member

09-25-2003

Monday, May 10, 2004 - 2:54 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I think Rob has taken whatever responsibility this game requires. They love him in Boston and that's where he lives. He came in 2nd which I believe they said on the Morning Show is 250 thousand this year beacause it was Allstars instead of a regular game. He got the girl, she got a Mill, they both got new cars. As Richard said, it's a human chess game. Congradulation to Amber and Rob and their families.

Cpmfinster
Member

12-01-2003

Monday, May 10, 2004 - 3:04 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Oops Spear, I think *you* might be right.

Fruitbat
Member

08-07-2000

Monday, May 10, 2004 - 4:42 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I agree Yuhuru. And yes Spear, he said "If you can" and repeated it again.

Lex got all huffy puffy in Africa when he got ONE vote at TC. He went on a rampage trying to fine the offender! I guess he thought he was above receiving a vote.

Divinesara
Member

05-10-2004

Monday, May 10, 2004 - 6:39 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Interesting thoughts here. The one thing we have to consider is that this wasn't the type of game that ended in a day around a table with a couple of drinks and a laugh or two.

Probably the biggest problem I've got with the whole Lex and Rob situation is that Rob cannot properly communicate to Lex exactly what he did in regard to the game. If you are going to say "it's just a game" then explain the move you made in the game so the person better understands it. Don't just say it's a game, show them it's just a game.

One of the key points Rob never communicated was the fact that NONE of them were there to make sure their "friend" got the money. If that were the case then they all needed to go home the first day. Once that you convey that to Lex and somewhat Kathy ( good lord she gets my award for the most emotional player of all time) and you make it clear, then they should understand it. They obviously wouldn't like it as it affected their chances but then thats the game.

Lex has complete amnesia when it comes to booting Colby. He did agree to boot Jerri. The idea that his approach to booting Jerri was any different to that of Rob booting him just because they were close "friends" is actually quite unfair. It could be argued that as a friend Rob actually went to Lex to let him know he was going. Thats about all you get in this game as far as I'm concerned if you want a moment of honesty.

I'm still scratching my head as to what Lex expected out of Rob. The game was Robs. He had the right to control his own destiny. Lex didn't factor into his game plan just like Colby didn't factor into Lex's game. One could point the blame on Kathy to a certain degree as well. She sure held on to that immunity necklace like it was her last packet of crack when she had promised her "friend" she'd give it to him. So I do think pulling the "friend" card is a cheap shot but it only works if you allow it and thats where Rob failed.

Rob should have explained very respectfully to Lex that he had the right to play the game as he saw it. It was a compliment to Lex to get him out of the game as soon as possible knowing he probably couldn't beat him in the finals. To Robs credit he was damned if he didn't and damned if he did. If he kept Lex would he have remained in control of the game? If Lex had half a brain he wouldn't have kept Amber. For me it goes down as one of the stupidest moves ever on the show. Once again to Robs credit he played him like a fiddle and it worked. It's also one of those moments where playing with someone you know just doesn't work for these kind of shows just like how they ruined BB last year with that whole X factor thing.

So to the question... Was it just a game? Definitely yes but then you need to have the communication skills to explain it to those that are upset about the results. I'm still waiting for a tough player who has ruffled feathers to step up at the final TC and win in based on a final speech. That person is out there and I would applaud them if they ever attempt that move.



Pascalle
Member

09-25-2003

Monday, May 10, 2004 - 6:46 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Great post D. However, I don't think Rob needs to explain any further or at all. He told lex "if I can". They have all played the game before. It is just so much sour grapes on Lex's part. People who get their feathers ruffled shouldn't be anywhere near this game or even watch it on tv imo. Whiners make me sick anyway.

Sasha
Member

03-06-2004

Monday, May 10, 2004 - 6:53 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Pascalle, I love it when people are not afraid to say it as they see it. Good for you. I agree with your post.

Divinesara
Member

05-10-2004

Monday, May 10, 2004 - 7:21 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Pascalle I agree I don't think he needs to explain a thing since the game is over. However, it would have been very interesting to see Rob remain calm, allow Lex to dig himself deeper at the final TC and then have Rob step up, tell Lex he respected what he had to say but then in an articulate fashion explain to him why he did what he did and really challenge the idea of pulling the friendship card. Thats the stuff I'm waiting for in a final TC.

Lancecrossfire
Moderator

07-13-2000

Monday, May 10, 2004 - 7:34 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
The funny thing was Lex wasn't the only vote concerning Amber. The rest have free will. They could have voted out Amber.

It would have been interesting to see who Rob would have handled it if Amber had been voted out. maybe he'd be pissing and moaning last night instead of Lex. It's easy not to complain when things go your way.

It was never indicated if Rob asked as a friend--he certainly didn't deny doing so, however he never said he did either.

And everyone who is saying friendship didn't paly a part in this has forgotten the reason why Rob took Amber so far--because of the feelings he experienced out there. He said as much many times.