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Archive through May 10, 2004

The TVClubHouse: Archives: Survivor All-Stars: General Discussions: Game? Not a game? Game? Not a game. : Archive through May 10, 2004 users admin

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Jimmer
Member

08-30-2000

Thursday, April 15, 2004 - 12:00 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I really enjoyed the poker analogy. It helps put it into perspective that it can be considered a game.

I’m not about to try to read Rob’s mind. Maybe he is what he appears to be in his game playing and in the confessionals. However, giving him a tiny benefit of doubt, sometimes guys like to talk in a macho way to cover up their real feelings (got to be hard and tough you know!). He sure seems weak as far as Amber is concerned.

Caycaye
Member

09-14-2001

Thursday, April 15, 2004 - 2:28 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
You know Jimmer...as a mother of a 26 yr. old young man, I AGREE that Rob may be just spouting off to look more macho...and if that IS the case....how silly....and immature is he?

BUT...I sincerely HOPE that is the case, because he CAN grow up and mature, but bad character is forever!

Tobor7
Member

07-19-2002

Friday, April 16, 2004 - 12:35 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Jimmer said, "I really enjoyed the poker analogy. It helps put it into perspective that it can be considered a game."

But the real Poker analogy would be 2 friends at a poker table and they are both in a big pot together. One friend tells the other, "Don't call me. I have the winning hand. I don't want to see you lose any more money on this one since I know things are tight for you. Trust me. Just fold."

And then he either doesn't show his cards or turns out to be bluffing. Even if he has the winning hand, it would be unfair to the other players at the table to do that. If he turned out to be bluffing and the "trust" statement caused his friend to fold, then I would consider that to be OUTSIDE acceptable poker game behavior. Certainly not against any rules, but he wouldn't be coming back into that game any time soon. THAT IS NOT PART OF THE BLUFFING GAME when "friends" are involved. Strangers can say whatever they want.

As an extreme example... remember the Iraq soldiers that surrendered with their hands up and then when they got close enough to our guys, they would pull a gun and start shooting. (Sure they didn't sign the Geneva convention, so they didn't break any laws...) But it was just really bad form.


Lancecrossfire
Moderator

07-13-2000

Friday, April 16, 2004 - 9:29 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I think the poker analogy is a great one IF that was all that was done during Survivor or BB. To be accurate with that poker analogy, what would also take place is the guy bluffing and succeeding also saying that his card buddy has a "small sausage" (which Rob said about The General) or saying that since he was successful at his bluff, the other person must have stupid kids (which was said about Gerry in BB).

That is the kind of thing that keeps happening--things that have nothing to do with the game, yet take place all the time. And they take place concerning people even after they have left the game.

Sunshyne4u
Member

06-17-2003

Friday, April 16, 2004 - 7:12 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Rob was edited quite a bit differently this last show. The few things he did say in confessional seemed to be coaxed out of him by someone behind the camera....and it was choppy. It was like they were dragging comments out of Rob that giving up the video could be construed as "strategy".
**
Looked like an anti Rob set up to me
**
OH yeah, Lex on the jury cracked me up! Gets a mohawk to try to look really intimidating and spends most of his time Glowering and pouty at the cam IMHO. WOW, no wonder he still seems upset when he is interviewed now...Lex really was hurt and upset by how things went down.

For that, I do feel sorry for him. I hope he gets some counselling to help deal with his part in the situation...for it is a normal response to point your fingers at everyone else instead of looking inwards to yourself. That is the toughest part of healing and many people dont want to "go there" because it is always uncomfortable to analyze yourself.

Tobor7
Member

07-19-2002

Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 8:22 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Well, based on the statements and questions in the final T/C I saw tonight, from a player's viewpoint it seems that the majority felt it is NOT a game.

I thought Lex's speech summed it up quite well.

JP almost hit on our exact poker analogy, but missed the point I think.


(Jerri couldn't handle how much the crowd dis-liked her.)


I'm sure this discussion will continue...

Cassie
Member

07-15-2000

Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 8:27 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I thought Lex was a very sore loser.

Pascalle
Member

09-25-2003

Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 8:54 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Boy I'll say Lex is a sore loser. I agree with Richard Hatch. They've all played this game before. It's outwit, outlast, out- think or outplay-ect.. They know that, going in, especially since they played before. Yes it is a game and a competition. It is not a popularity contest. It ended just fine. The morally angst need not apply for this show in my opinion.

Pamy
Member

01-02-2002

Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 11:09 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Lex sux! and I am glad they booed him and that JP called him on why was it different when he did it

Lancecrossfire
Moderator

07-13-2000

Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 11:22 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I am 2 edged with Lex. While it is indeed a game, I agree that friendship should not play a role in it. A friend does not ask another friend for a favor in a game because of the friendship.

That is the distinction Lex was trying to make--and I agree. If I am in a game of football with a friend, I will not ask to score a touchdown now for a return favor in the game.

That is what Rob did that Lex said crossed the line. Now I also agree that Lex chose to do it and he didn't have to.

When you look for where things went south though, Rob was willing to bring friendship into the game.

Rob also went outside the game by calling Tom's son stupid. (actually more stupid than Tom) Rob didn't know Tom's son.

That is the point about Rob that Kathy, Tom and Lex had in mind.

Morality has to play a part in a game--for a game includes morals--even war is supposed to include morals.

Lex was right that this game shows the colors of who the person is. That cannnot be denied.

Guinevere
Member

03-15-2001

Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 11:24 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Kathy, Lex, Alicia and Tom made fools of themselves at the final TC. Kathy and Lex were particularly painful to watch; it's rare to see people so<NK> Ugh.

Edited to respond:

> A friend does not ask another friend for a favor in a game because of the friendship.<

Is that what Rob did, though? My recollection was that Rob said, you do this for me and I will take care of you (I'm paraphrasing). That seems like a promise within the game, not a favor from a friend. But maybe I'm forgetting something.

>Lex was right that this game shows the colors of who the person is. That cannnot be denied.<

If that's the case, then it showed Lex's true colors as <NK> who has one rule for himself and another for everyone else. He is hard for me to respect because he has told so many stories about the "favor" - in one story, it was a favor to a friend (in which case, he shouldn't have expected anything in return, as JP pointed out tonight), in the second story, it was strategy, in which case he was just playing the game and didn't have a right to pull the friend card when the strategy backfired on him. Lex's third story blames Kathy, stating that she was the driving force between keeping Amber and booting Jerri. In which case, he has no right to take the credit either way.

I still firmly believe that it's possible to play the game one way (deceptively) and still be a good person in one's daily life. Maybe it's not possible for everyone, so some people don't understand it.

Lancecrossfire
Moderator

07-13-2000

Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 11:42 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Guinevere, I don't dispute your comments about what it could mean about Lex. I was only stating what is says about Rob. He played the game the same way both times--he had no lines of what was acceptable, and later said he was sorry.

I think Lex is correct that over all, the way you play the game is how you live life. Look at Rudy, Colby, Ethan, and others. Listen, along with how they play the game what they say to the camera.

Richard, in all his arrogance (which I don't care for) is consistent about how he took it as a game and played it as a game. He never said anyone's kid was stupid, he never said anyone was some horrible person.

I agree with your last statement about being able to play the game one way and have a personal life the other way.

Rob has not shown that to be the case though. In both games he's been in he has not shown that.

Pascalle
Member

09-25-2003

Sunday, May 09, 2004 - 11:57 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Guin, I agree with you. Lex,Alicia,Tom and Kathy did act like sore losers and appeared very foolish in the last TC. I think the problem really lies in the fact that the game sore losers, and many viewers think for some reason that Rob owes them an explanation. He doesn't. Nor does he have to "show" anyone anything. He out played them pure and simple. It's human nature I guess for some people to lose a game and then start pointing fingers- "yeah but I'm a better person in real life" This is nothing but childish sour grapes. It happens every time. Not with just the actual game losers but with their fans as well. Very telling indeed.

Lancecrossfire
Moderator

07-13-2000

Monday, May 10, 2004 - 12:04 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
If that is true, then why should Rob apologize to anyone? Why shoudln't Rob have said something to the affect of "get over it you whiny people--I kicked your butt and I don't care about you at all--you mean nothing to me."

That is how he played and that is basically what he should have said if he really believed in how he played.

Pascalle
Member

09-25-2003

Monday, May 10, 2004 - 12:08 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
In my opinion he should not of apologized. It was a game they all played before. They are all adults. He knew Amber would probably win. They both won really. The only shame to me is the behavior of some of the losers.

Azriel
Member

08-01-2000

Monday, May 10, 2004 - 12:17 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Lance, the biggest problem I have with Lex is that on one hand he whines that the favor he did Rob by keeping Amber was based on friendship, but then he turns his face and says that he really wanted to keep Jerri and only kept Amber because Kathy wanted to and he didn't want to hurt his alliance with Kathy.

It's ridiculous and unfair of him to be so childishly petty with Rob and act like he is an injured party when he never kept Amber in the game out of friendship. He kept Amber for strategic reasons and he played the game no different than Rob. He's just mad that he lost.

Lancecrossfire
Moderator

07-13-2000

Monday, May 10, 2004 - 12:21 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Yet he did apologize. His actions at the end were not consistent with what he said about his game play. If he truly believes he did nothing wrong, then no need to say anything that would indicate he did something wrong.

There is one case where no amount of words will get me to change my mind--his comments about Tom's son had nothing to do with the game. They were out of line, and only served to show the way Rob really is.

He could have left Tom's son out of things and nothing would have changed. Rob showed little respect for anyone at any point. Well, other than Amber, although that was his little head doing the talking.

Pascalle
Member

09-25-2003

Monday, May 10, 2004 - 12:31 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
The true is Lance, it doesn't matter what you or I or anyone thinks. The Amber/Rob team won. Period dot. They have 2 new cars, a million bucks, less taxes, and an up comming wedding. Rob will never meet anyone on this board who hated his game play. I don't think he owed anyone an explanation. The fact that he gave one to the losers is a little bonus thrown their way that they did not even deserve.

Tobor7
Member

07-19-2002

Monday, May 10, 2004 - 12:32 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Lance said: "When you look for where things went south though, Rob was willing to bring friendship into the game.
Morality has to play a part in a game--for a game includes morals--even war is supposed to include morals.
Lex was right that this game shows the colors of who the person is. That cannot be denied.



Well put.


I am of the school of thought that on this issue (no matter what they call it) that it is not a game. That calling it "just a game" is a poor excuse for bad behavior. For the most part human emotion and personality comes through. We get to see what the "person" is like. Although a viewer might see it as a game, the people that actually play it do not. Forget the 20/20 hindsight you see at the reunion. Look at the emotion at the final T/C. They are still in that world. They are fully subject to all their human emotions without much perspective.

One telling line came when Rob and Amber were going to watch the movie "Lord of the Flies" and JP said Survivor was sort of based on that movie.

I'm not about to actually say what people's actions say about them. That is for a team of doctors to decide. I'm saying that their actions on the TV show REALLY DO say something about how they live their everyday lives- good or bad. I'm not judging them, just making a general observation.

And I do not think a person who is NOT used to lying would go very far in a show by just "deciding" to be an expert liar and play that role. Where would the experience come from that would make him or her good at it? Being a really good liar takes years and years of practice.



Pascalle
Member

09-25-2003

Monday, May 10, 2004 - 12:42 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Well if you want to see nice people, I guess you should go to church or watch Disney. This is Survivor and Jeff was right. Lord Of The Flies is a lot closer to the Survivor game than what alot of viewers might want or expect. I love the show and am glad the people who won, won. It was a well played game. It's not my job as a viewer to decide if anyone is a "nice" person in real life. Thankfully the producers understand this and do not let the viewers vote during regular seasons.

Tobor7
Member

07-19-2002

Monday, May 10, 2004 - 1:03 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I didn't say I wanted to see nice people. I'm making an observation about the human condition based on what we see on a TV show.

I love the show as well. I also get a lot more out of it after analysis and discussion. It's not my job as a viewer to do anything but watch, but it is my job as a member of society to learn something from it.

I submit that the actions and comments that were thrown out during the final T/C are evidence to support my theory.



Cassie
Member

07-15-2000

Monday, May 10, 2004 - 6:04 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
What Guin and Pascale said.

<A friend does not ask another friend for a favor in a game because of the friendship.>

Lex had NO problem telling Ethan, his friend, he was being cut loose for strategy's sake. He did not let their friendship interfere. He could have easily told Rob "NO" when he asked him for a "favor". He IS a big boy after all. It was his call, and IMO, he made it strategically. He's no victim here. I think Lex, Tom, Alicia and Kathy's behavour at both final tribal council and the reunion was appallingly immature. I've never seen so much self-righteousness at one time. Amber and Rob had some serious guilt trips laid on them. No wonder they felt so pressured to "apologise." If someone had done that to me when I was in my twenties, I would probably have wept and broken down. I think they stood up well in the face of all that bitter, spiteful bile that was thrown their way during final tribal council. Someone had to be feeding that hatred against Rob in the "jury." Wonder who it could have been??? (Can you say Lex?)

Curious1
Member

08-31-2002

Monday, May 10, 2004 - 6:13 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I totally agree with everything Cassie said!

Beruthiel
Member

10-08-2002

Monday, May 10, 2004 - 6:30 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
We have the same kind of discussions re BB, and the same arguments apply, but I still don't understand how the audience couldn't see the distinction that Lex tried to make. Admittedly it's a fine line, but to me it speaks volumes about both Boston Rob and Amber, and also about the audience in the studio too.
I haven't seen much reaction expressed to Amber's decision to give the third car to Shii Ann, "because she was the deciding vote" in Amber's favour. First of all, four people voted for her, so how did she choose out of the four?
Secondly, the decent thing to do would have been to give the third car to the runner up, Jenna, or to the person who kept them fed for all that time, thus helping them get to the end, and the fact that Amber rewarded someone who voted for her, rather than someone who might be said to have earned it within the context of the game, also speaks to Amber's character.
Seems to me that Rob and Amber are well matched, greedy enough to do 'anything' for the money.
No one has fed my 'hatred' either. I watched, listened, and made my own judgement based on the behaviour of the survivors, and I give the jury members the credit of being able to make their own judgement based on their own experiences with their tribe-mates. It seems to me that it was hurt hearts that were speaking, not bitter, spiteful bile-filled ones. I'm sure that they will all simmer down eventually and mend fences, and Rob and Amber have the consolation of the big money to soothe their hurt feelings after the final jury session, so forgive me if I don't have much sympathy for the final two.

Kep421
Member

08-11-2001

Monday, May 10, 2004 - 6:43 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I liked Kathy's comment to Rob...about him not giving his "friends" one ounce of respect in playing the game.

I never said Rob was wrong for lying, backstabbing or any other amoral type activity. But he didn't treat his fellow team mates, even the ones he considered as friends, with very much respect. Yes it is a "just" a game, but when I play games with my friends, I treat them with the same respect that I do when we aren't playing. Rob showed he doesn't have much respect for others.

You can love Rob, and appreciate the way he played, but you cannot get around the fact that he has showed no respect for anyone while playing this game. Until he learns that others deserve respect too, he will always be a loser. JMHO

I wish both he and Amber well and a long loving life together. I was glad to see Rob apologize to Tom for offending his family, although I'm a bit suspicious of any apology that is given under duress. Rob is young, and he may yet learn to treat others with respect and dignity, no matter what the contest.