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Archive through March 05, 2004

The TVClubHouse: Archives: Survivor All-Stars: General Discussions: Is CBS in hot water because of what Richard did to the women: Archive through March 05, 2004 users admin

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Julieboo
Member

02-05-2002

Friday, March 05, 2004 - 10:00 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I agree with the above posts. Great points mware.

It's a game.

She was the one who turned back and went down the log he was on. She knew he was naked. Didn't she say I want this one (something like that)? It was a total of about 2 or 3 seconds. She was never in danger He had to touch her (or anyone) to get past. And Kathy was right there too.

Sorry, but Sue should have not made any deal of it at all. Richard is always naked and I do not believe his intention was to sexually harass her.

I thought Harry handled the Early Show interview with then both very poorly. He was totally fanning the flames. Shame on him. Especially cuz it was clear that R & S had patched things up. Then he practically forced Richard to apologize.

I liked what Kathy said about not liking that Sue was bringing them all into her hate. I also like that she wanted to get back into the game and play the challenge--not just share the food and discuss more about Sue.

Hermione69
Member

07-24-2002

Friday, March 05, 2004 - 10:26 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
her choosing to go down Richard's plank does NOT give him the right to rub his genitals against her!! NOTHING gives him that right. he didn't just brush against her to get past. he rubbed his genitals on her! DELIBERATELY and without invitation! how is that okay? because she was going to have to pass him by in close quarters? part of the game was being able to challenge people on the planks. she had every right to walk down that plank with the expectation that richard, while naked, did not have the license to grind his penis against her. to me, that is akin to opting to get on a crowded bus and having the man behind you grind against your butt and then people saying you shouldn't have gotten on that bus in the first place because it was crowded. 2-3 seconds can be a long time for someone to touch you inappropriately. when i was a preadolescent, i was fondled by a stranger in a pet store. it was "only" about a second or two of fondling. does that excuse it or make my reaction any less valid? i am just flabbergasted. it makes me very angry that women still get belittled when trying to stand up for themselves.

i personally lost a lot of respect for kathy last night. alicia went way up in my eyes. she was the only one that seemed to show true compassion.



Puttergirl
Member

08-11-2000

Friday, March 05, 2004 - 10:27 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I totally disagree with you Julieboo (respectfully, of course). I think it was a big deal and should never have been allowed. I've watched the incident over and over and I'm pretty sure that Sue didn't see that he was nude until she got close to him. But even if she did, she shouldn't have to compromise her effort in the game because they were allowing him to play nude. I think, at the time it happened, Sue tried to be a good sport and joke about it. But as she processed it in her mind, it really began to bother her. The fact that Jeff didn't try to stop Richard from stripping probably escalated her anger and frustration.

I know I have been in lots of situations where something happens and at the time I'll shrug it off. But later I'll start thinking about it, and working over the details in my mind, until I'm very upset. Its only human nature to do that. I totally believe Sue felt violated and was being completely honest with her feelings!!

Puttergirl
Member

08-11-2000

Friday, March 05, 2004 - 10:31 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Hermione, I totally agree with you, especially about Alicia. I was pleasantly surprised how supportive she was. My feelings for her have made a 360 degree turn around.

I thought I'd be sick when Tom was singing "Ding, Dong, the Witch is Dead". Could he have shown any less compassion?? Whether you like her or not, Sue was in obvious pain and that was totally inappropriate!!!

I, for one, felt enormous empathy for Sue. I just think the whole thing was disgraceful and I hope they did compensate her for it. She doesn't need to go through any more and I think she deserves it (compensation).

Hermione69
Member

07-24-2002

Friday, March 05, 2004 - 10:39 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Thank you, Puttergirl, for your post.

Several years ago I went to a convention in Williamsburg, VA. I left at the same time as a male friend and we were both headed back to the Newport News area. We had been hanging out at the convention. We were in separate cars, but, like I said, going in the same direction. He kept pulling up and slowing down so he was riding alongside me on the road. I thought he was just flirting. We had been flirting, harmlessly, I thought, at the convention. He beckoned me to follow him and turned into a parking lot. It was night and no one was around. I had known him for a couple years and thought he was just going to ask me out or something. When I got out of my car and went over to his, he was "spanking the monkey!" My reaction was completely inappropriate. First my mind just kind of stuttered and went blank. Then I GIGGLED. Then I got in my car and left. By the time I got home, I was a nervous wreck. The adrenaline was pumping and I was shaking like a leaf and very scared that he was going to show up at my home and rape me or something.

Later one of my friends ran into him and confronted him about the incident and his reply was pretty much that I had been asking for it because I had flirted with him!! Nothing excused his behavior, just as I believe nothing excuses Richard's. I just think that Sue choosing that plank, Richard's nakedness, her prior acquaintance with him, his being gay, how long it lasted, how much contact actually occured, all of that is moot to me. It was unwanted sexual attention and completely inappropriate and I would never judge Sue for how she reacted then or in the aftermath.

Pamy
Member

01-02-2002

Friday, March 05, 2004 - 10:47 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Hermie, ITA with you. I posted somewhere that last nites show left a bad taste in my mouth.

When she mentioned MB being good to her and getting her counseling it convinced me that she had been abused before.

Even Rupert went down in book last nite, all of them laughing it off after seeing how hurt she was.

Alicia went waaaay up in my book, I have always liked her, but she showed a very warm loving personal side last nite. I hope she wins

Ladytex
Member

09-27-2001

Friday, March 05, 2004 - 10:47 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I've never been a Sue fan, but last night I really felt bad for her. It really pains me to see such nastiness being posted about what seems to be a really emotional experience for her. None of us knows what has happened, if anything, in her past. Her adrenaline may have been pumping major during the challenge and once it wore off, she perhaps processed what happened. It has happened to lots of athletes, a physical injury occurs and they don't compute it until afterwards. So why not an emotional injury? Tom and Kathy ... what can I say other than pfffffffffffffffft? I've never liked Tom, and last night only cemented my feelings for him. I was never a big Kathy fan either. I hope she is okay and that she can get over this. I'm glad that this morning she said that things have been straightened out between her and Richard.

Faerygdds
Member

08-29-2000

Friday, March 05, 2004 - 10:47 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I think people also have to realize that incidents like this only get worse with empty time to think about it. If you don't have time to think, then the incident may pass with little or no notice. But when you are trapped on an island with little or nothing to DO, then you have all the time in the world to think about it.

I think Sue preliminary reaction was pure shock and disbelief. That's common. Her comment about "I want this one" was totally valid in that game. Her balance was not the best and she knew that. There was no reason for her to have to walk a longer route to get to her platform when she knew she could easily lose her balance and fall off. She waited for Richard to pass her to take the shorter route. That decision, IMO, was both reasonable and smart!

What Richard did, was inappropriate. His intentions may have been joking, but you never know how someone will react to a situation like that.

On the Sue is tough train of thought. Most women that I know (myself included) who are that "tough" have developed that thick shell of a skin for a reason! You never know what is in someone's past. Maybe her reason for being so tough is because she had brothers who bullied her, or maybe she is that tough because she was molested as a child. You just never know.

What bothers me the most after reading this whole thread is how some of you think she either deserved it or egged it on somehow. Joking and poking fun are one thing. They are words -- and as the saying goes, "sticks and stones my break my bones, but words will never hurt me". When he touched her, he crossed a line from joking to a physical level which can only be described as assault.

That's my bottom line. If you have read this far, thanks for listening to my ramblings and rantings! :-)

Pamy
Member

01-02-2002

Friday, March 05, 2004 - 10:51 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I thought I heard them say something about one tribe thought they HAD to go down certain planks and the other tribe didnt do that. Richard said something like he didnt know why she chose that plank when she didnt have to



Maris
Member

03-28-2002

Friday, March 05, 2004 - 11:02 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I watched the cbs tape this morning and she said that they had to go down a certain plank to go back to their team. The strange thing is Richards team did not have that rule. So she said she had to go down that plank but Richard didnt have that limitation so he didnt understand why she chose his plank.

As far as Rupert's reaction. Rupert will never veer away from the groups opinion. He will kiss up and agree with them particularly when it comes to discussing another member. I saw Rupert agreeing as weak.

Tabbyking
Member

03-11-2002

Friday, March 05, 2004 - 11:08 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
i heard that, too, pamy. supposedly sue said her tribe had to return on that one plank and richard's tribe hadn't been told they had to use a specific plank.
i don't say sue deserved it or egged it on. i said it appeared they bantered back and forth. it looked like she did something vocal and he did something physical. i never said what he did was right, but i don't think he did it thinking, "i will molest sue right here, yeah, good idea". i think it was just a richard moment. i don't like richard, never have. he is not the sharpest knife in the drawer.
they obviously worked it out since it happened, which is good for the two of them.

Faerygdds
Member

08-29-2000

Friday, March 05, 2004 - 11:28 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I agree with you Tabby... there was bantering going on, but he did take it to another level. Funny thing is I don't think you were one of the posters I was referring to. ;)

Some people seem to think that it's HER fault.

Interesting... when I got raped when I was 16, they told me it was my fault for being so cute and criticized my clothes (which covered EVERYTHING) for being too tight. (Spandex leggings and an oversized sweatshirt that went down to mid thigh, both decorated -- hey! it was the 80's!).

I still feel bad for Sue. You can't help what you feel and that incident made her feel really really bad!

Yuhuru
Member

09-27-2001

Friday, March 05, 2004 - 11:34 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Before you guys totally change your opinion of these players, don't forget that they're playing a game. Sue's behavior has been odd in the past. I honestly believe that many of them weren't sure if she was really hurting OR if she was using it playing the game OR using it to get out of the game. Rob summed it up well. My initial reaction was similar to a lot of y'all's regarding Rupert and Tom and Kathy, but then I thought about it, and decided to give them the benefit of the doubt on this subject.

But now that kinda makes Kathy a little suspect based on her reaction to both Jenna and Sue.



Hermione69
Member

07-24-2002

Friday, March 05, 2004 - 11:37 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Yeah, we have to remember how different this is for all of them in the context of a rather brutal game than it is for all of us sitting in the comfort of our living rooms! The benefit of the doubt is probably wisely applied to everyone in this situation. :-)

March
Member

10-02-2003

Friday, March 05, 2004 - 11:55 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Sue mentioned last night when she was yelling at JP that Chapera's platform was close to the plank where the incident happened between her and Richard. Now we know that Chapera was watching Sue a few seconds before it happened because they were trying to convenience her to go on the other plank. How could none of them have seen anything that happened??? I mean they said that Richard had his back to JP that is why he didn't see all that took place so that would mean that chapera would have had the front or side view where you would think that someone would have seen something.

Realfan
Member

08-08-2001

Friday, March 05, 2004 - 11:59 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
<<I think, at the time it happened, Sue tried to be a good sport and joke about it. But as she processed it in her mind, it really began to bother her. The fact that Jeff didn't try to stop Richard from stripping probably escalated her anger and frustration.

I know I have been in lots of situations where something happens and at the time I'll shrug it off. But later I'll start thinking about it, and working over the details in my mind, until I'm very upset. Its only human nature to do that. I totally believe Sue felt violated and was being completely honest with her feelings!!>>

Exactly, Puttergirl. I certainly am the type not to want to rock the boat in public. I'd try to laugh an incident like that off or shrug it off--until later, when it really settled in what had happened, and how crappy it made me feel.

I felt very bad for Sue. I'm glad things with her are OK now.

If anything comes out of this, it should be to require the contestants to keep their damn clothes on unless they're bathing. Why should the nudity rules be different for them than for society at large? It's a stupid ploy to make people uncomfortable--and this time it went way beyond that.

<<Sue's behavior has been odd in the past. I honestly believe that many of them weren't sure if she was really hurting OR if she was using it playing the game OR using it to get out of the game. Rob summed it up well.>>

Rob is the definition of unsympathetic. He thinks only of himself, so of course he assumes others are as cold-blooded.

Rslover
Member

11-19-2002

Friday, March 05, 2004 - 12:05 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Liking Sue or not is really irrelevant. What Richard did was disgusting, especially his comment, "want some of this?" I think it was looked at as no big deal because he is a gay guy. If a heterosexual guy did that to Sue, it would have caused an uproar. I wonder if Colby, Lex, or Rob would be allowed to walk around naked. Double standard. I don't think Richard should have been allowed to walk around naked in the first place. It obviously gave him some kind of intimidation power in his eyes, so already that was an advantage that other players didn't have. I believe he seriously upset her and am sorry she had to leave. I think he is a and I am so glad he got booted. I hope that jerk Tom (who doesn't seem to do anything but criticize the women) goes next. I agree about losing respect for Kathy. Her comments were insensitive. Good for Alicia for understanding and I hope Sue does gets some $ from CBS.

Dram
Member

09-10-2003

Friday, March 05, 2004 - 12:13 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I am disappointed in Kathy. As a woman she could have been a little more sympathetic in my opinion. Her comment about Sue bringing her "hate" to people was uncalled for. Gee Kathy, when is it appropriate to tell someone you felt violated?

Tom remains ignorant once again. Stating he can't know what Sue was going through because he's not a woman. Note to Tom, in the future just imagine if that was your wife, sister or daughter. You don't need to be a woman to have empathy, you just need to be a human being.

Landi
Member

07-29-2002

Friday, March 05, 2004 - 12:26 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
jenna lewis knew sue from survivor 1, and alicia knew sue well from the time they spent at the BB2 house. hermione... you couldn't have said it better!

kathy was wrong in what she said. jeff brought up the incident. sue did not. and asked about people's feelings. so of course sue was going to speak up about how she felt. i give kudos to alicia, jenna, colby, and shiiann

i think rupert was personally just laughing at tom's funny dance, not the whole song and what it meant to bostonrob and tom.

i have lost all enthusiasm for kathy, tom, and bostonrob


Sbw
Member

08-09-2000

Friday, March 05, 2004 - 12:29 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
As was mentioned above, I really wonder if some of them wondered if Susan was looking for a way out of the game. Many of them seemed sympathetic to her when she was there, trying to get her to eat, trying to get her to talk, etc. I think that the situation escalated beyond what Susan was comfortable with. We do not know the relationship between Susan and Richard. They have made several appearances together in the last few years. Susan's lack of family emotional support during the long night following the incident I am sure made the situation much worse. I don't know the situation between Richard and Susan, but obviously they have worked through it. I am very happy that Susan left when she did. I am sure she was provided emotional support at a time she needed it in a big way.

I have to say I did find some of Kathy's comments the most distressing. They were not said in the context of the game. Rob and Tom's actions were in the context of the game, Kathy's were personal.

Puttergirl
Member

08-11-2000

Friday, March 05, 2004 - 12:39 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Yuhuru and Sbw, you both mentioned that the players may have been thinking that Sue was playing it up or looking for a way out of the game. You may be right, but I think Alicia's attitude was the only one that should be taken in a situation like this. I heard her distinctly say last night that we should give her the benefit of the doubt and that's how they all should have handled it!!

Tabbyking
Member

03-11-2002

Friday, March 05, 2004 - 12:41 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
faery, i just wanted to make sure it was clear i didn't think sue 'asked for it', i thought RICHARD maybe thought they were both 'playing along' when sue definitely wasn't!
watching it (from the comfort of my room, as hermi pointed out!) i thought it was sort of a mutual disrespect thing between two 'out there' players. richard has been nude and rude in the past and sue has been quite vocally rude. she scared me when she gave her 'let you die of thirst' angry speech on the first survivor.
i am sure they both regret that it happened and, hopefully, it will make richard more cognizant of other people's feelings on nudity and respect and what is totally inappropriate touching.
i do blame survivor production somewhat in that they let richard continue to be his loud, arrogant, nude self, and they have to have known it made people uncomfortable from the start--which is why richard did it half the time.
i would hope they say no more nude challenges.
someone mentioned what if it had been another person who had been touched, and it still would have been inappropriate and we don't know if the person would have laughed it off or gotten angry.
hopefully, this kind of thing won't happen again.
i also wonder what would have happened had it occured to jenna m. it might have been harder to find sympathy for her, after her nudity and using it to distract male players when it wasn't even a part of the game, etc.

Sbw
Member

08-09-2000

Friday, March 05, 2004 - 12:52 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Puttergirl, if they were all going to sit around and obsess about the whole thing from then on, they might as well have loaded up on boats and left the island. Forget the game! (This might even have been the best option.)

I sincerely believe they were doing their best to get back from reality to game play. It was out of their hands at that time. They couldn't "be there" for Susan. The only one I heard talking about Susan in a bad light on a personal level was Kathy.

They were glad Susan was gone on a game level. Tom wanted her voted out from day 1. Would you expect him all of a sudden to be Susan's best friend and want her there? I wasn't there, I don't know and in this case, as much as I don't like some of them, the one I felt out of line was the one that kept it personal. But those are my feelings.

That being said I also can't imagine being in Susan's shoes and having this whole situaton "out there" in the public. As I said Susan seems to have made great progress in getting past it, I am happy for her. Maybe Richard has also learned a valuable lesson. Now if Tom, Colby, Rob (one of the other guys) had done this I am not sure I would see it in the same way. Richard obviously didn't mean this in a sexual way. It is not in his character. ;)

ETA: Please don't take the above as meaning that Richard was not at fault. He was. He loves to goad people in any way he can.

Pamy
Member

01-02-2002

Friday, March 05, 2004 - 1:11 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
SOunds like JP screwed up that whole challenge. In an article he said 'I blew it" and also referred to Rob/Colby, he ruled in Rob's favor but later realized Colby didnt hit the water first

Starshine40
Member

07-30-2002

Friday, March 05, 2004 - 1:24 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
"I was just wondering did CBS edited out alot of Sue's statement because it wasn't as bad as it looked during the ads because I thought she was going to be telling Jeff off, and all she said I have had it, and I am quitting, they made it sound like it was going to be some blowout but it wasn't."

I agree. Apparently there was some serious editing done here also.