Every challenge but this was = # of players??
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TV ClubHouse: Archive: General Discussions: Every challenge but this was = # of players??

Whit4you

Friday, October 31, 2003 - 07:37 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I am really enjoying this new twist - but it seems totally strange to me that every single challenge I have ever seen on any survivor they've made the team with the higher # of players sit someone else. Without exception and that'd include the ones that were really similiar to this.

Why did they make an exception in this case? Why were they allowed to have 6 people working on the pole as opposed to the other teams 5. Their pole being sturdier and stronger is what gave them first place over Drake...

To me it seems like this was done intentionally because as I said without exception they've always required an equal # of players, so I can't see this just being an oversite.

I imagine some folks think 'well it didn't make that big a difference' - but that's not the point.. there have been alot of challenges where in fact it wouldn't have made ANY difference but they still always require them to sit someone out. And it is a big big difference if the 6 of them well rested and prepared (they were the only ones not thrown for a loop in this) working together to make a sturdy strong pole. It wasn't a washout... they won for one reason only their pole outlasted the drakes.

So to me it is a big difference because I can't see this as an oversite...not when they ALWAYS ensure equal # of tribemates on each team... and yet they didn't this time.

MB has in many ways went out of it's way this year to make things more even and this is making for an incredibly good show - but it really bothers me that they gave the appearance of blatant favoritism like that. I'm betting if Drake were the team with the extra tribe member they'd have been sitting this one out.

Kaili

Friday, October 31, 2003 - 07:40 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I agree that they should have had someone sit out to make it even, but all were competing to come back so I suppose they didn't want anyone to sit out, then have a chance to come back in a free ride, more or less. At the same time, you can look at it like thei- they had more people to build the sticks, but they also had one more person to unlock (not that using a key takes that much time or anything). The extra person should have been tied at least so they had another knot to work on.

Lori

Friday, October 31, 2003 - 07:46 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I think it was unfair. Has there ever been an uneven # of players in any challenge?

In addition, we really do not know exactly what conditions the Outcasts have been experiencing. They very well could have been in better mental and physical condition than Drake or Morgan.

A twist is a twist...but all things should be equal.

Bob2112

Friday, October 31, 2003 - 08:07 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Kucha had to keep 7 members together in a the Maze Immunity challenge, while Ogakor only had 5. They lost and then Michael burned himself and Survivor Australia was completely turned around. Just like now.

Whit4you

Friday, October 31, 2003 - 08:12 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Oh thanks Bob... it's good to remmber that - it has been bothering me all night that it seemed to be such blatant favoritism but you are right... the last time it was to the team they wanted to win's advantage they did not sit someone out.

Oh well at least it wasn't the only time ever... I couldn't recall another time so it seemed really wrong for them to have made the one and only exception in such a blatant way.

Zami

Friday, October 31, 2003 - 08:18 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Hi Hi,

I do agree that it was unfair that they had the extra person. And I'm not sure, maybe some ingenious thinking on their part, but did anyone notice how the outcast team used the purple stips of fabric they came back with to tie their poles? I mean, sure, Morgan and Drake could have ripped apart their buffs to do so, and use some sturdier string (cuz the string on the ground looked kinda weak) but neither of the old teams were able to come into the challenge with pre-ripped strips on the ready.

Yah, just some of my weirdo wonderings...I could be over exaggerating. And a sour puss :)

Dee

Friday, October 31, 2003 - 08:30 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I looked at the Morgan and Drake tribe - each one getting scrawnier by the day - and then the Outkast tribe came in. Jeff said the Outkasts had had limited rice & beans just like the Morgan and Drakes... maybe he didn't mention the steak and chicken, etc., LOL. I mean, they did not look scrawny AT ALL.

Immunity_Man

Friday, October 31, 2003 - 09:00 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Bob, thanks! I remembered something about that challenge from the Austrailia show too, but couldn't remember exactly what the challenge was.

It wasn't that unfair to me. Having a 6th person could actually have gotten in the way. The Outcasts were living off of rations too as JP said, but their biggest advantage was mental IMO.

Zipsdaddy

Friday, October 31, 2003 - 09:36 am EditMoveDeleteIP
There was no advantage here. I just rewatched my tape. While Morgan and Drake had only one team member left in the third cage, the Outcasts had two members in the third cage, skinny Ryan and Nicole. When all three teams were in the second cage where they MADE the pole, each had 4 members there to work on the pole. The pole was then taken with the four members into the third cage. At this point, the Outcasts had to untie TWO members, Skinny Ryan and Nicole. So clearly they had no advantage. Drake and Morgan were only left with one member to untie.

Djgirl

Friday, October 31, 2003 - 10:11 am EditMoveDeleteIP
But Zips - Watch your tape - Lil is clearly shown wrapping her Tribal Strips around the sticks - NOT the string provided - The Outcasts were provided their garb to ensure that TWO people would be returning rather than just one...

Pantageas

Friday, October 31, 2003 - 03:29 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
DJgirl, I call that ingenuity. Maybe the Morgan guys should have ripped up their underwear for strips - we know how they like to 'go commando' anyway... :)

Wilsonatmd

Friday, October 31, 2003 - 03:35 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
there was no rule that said they had to use the string to make the pole....and Zips is right. One person started outside the cages, freed one person in cage one, the two of them freed two people in cage two, and the rest of the tribe was in cage three. also, they had to cross the finish line with all the team members...So the ghost tribe would have had a disadvantage, because they had to free an extra member, as well as have that extra member cross the finish line. The numbers were even in the first two cages, and the ghost tribe had a slight disadvantage at the third cage...

Sunshyne4u

Friday, October 31, 2003 - 03:50 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
The "making of the pole" was obviously right down Lil's alley!! Watching the team OUTKAST make their pole was good teammanship, they took their time and made a very sturdy extension. The other teams seemed panicked and frantic (as I would have been!)
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The only way this would have been a fair competition is if the OUTKAST team was being kept in a camp isolated and DIDNT KNOW that they were coming to the site for a comp. The Outkast team SHOULD have been put 'off base' just like Morgan and Drake. THEN this would have been more evened out!
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The extra member of Outkast was in the last cage and was not a contributing member to the win...I agree with ZipsDaddy.....and I dont recall Jeff Taking about a rule that said YOU MUST use the string provided. AH, Good ole Scout Leader technique and know-how paid off.

Spear

Friday, October 31, 2003 - 04:12 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
There have been many challenges where the number of players in both teams was not the same. Last week, everyone participated in the cannon challenge (Andrew fired twice). Two weeks ago, everyone participated in the gross food challenge (Andrew and Ryan went twice).

Whit4you

Friday, October 31, 2003 - 09:13 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Spear with the exception of the Maze challenge - all those others are ones that involve just as you said it equaling OUT by one side playing said event twice. This is different, but my personal issue with it being totally unfair was that I couldn't recall them ever having a team event like THIS type (where there's not one tribemate going twice...) but as was pointed out it was done at least once before so that makes a huge huge difference to me. Had this been the one and only time ever that they'd done this - it would have been totally wrong and would appear to me to be blatant game tampering. (But than the first time they did THIS people thought it was game tampering as well so lol) but anyhow for my own personal agenda I'm happy to know this wasn't a first.

Spear

Friday, October 31, 2003 - 11:44 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Well, there's also the SOS challenges in S3 and S4. Both times, the teams were not equal strength and one could argue that the bigger team had an advantage by being able to do more work to create a better distress signal. (Of course, since they were subjective, some people believe they were rigged to let the smaller team win and help equalize numbers.)

Anyway, I understand your point. I just wanted to clarify that it's not such a rare occurrence.

Reader234

Saturday, November 01, 2003 - 08:01 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Thanks whit for pointing that out to me. I'm just really enjoying this season of survivor.

I really lost interest in Australia after Michael was burned, and flown home, to me that accident changed the dynamics of that survivor.

and yet I'm loving the twists here, I love how it is changing the dynamics, I hate that the wimpy, annoying under the radar contestants are winning over and over again. I'm thinking in a real world situation, we'd have booted Jon out... yet there he has his alliance making him strong, and I keep thinking ewwww...

But I would hate for others to look at this challenge as unfair, so I'm glad you've provided insight that I hadnt considered!!

Chy

Saturday, November 01, 2003 - 05:06 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I still think the numbers should be the same. I still think this twist is unfair to the ten---well nine at least, OT was going to fold soon anyways.
I know this is probably the wrong thread to discuss the fairness of the twist, but something caught my attention here.

DEE noted "....Jeff said the Outkasts had had limited rice & beans just like the Morgan and Drakes... "

I thought Jeff said the outcasts had limited rice, PROTEIN and fruits& veggie...
Protein! That's a lot more than beans or whatever the Morgan's were having!

Plus the outcasts did know and were preparing themselves while being fed limited food! (Bet they didn't have to worry about where the next meal was.)

Unless they were all aware of this possibility in the beginning of the game. But it didn't look that way. Tij and OT seemed really shocked to me when Jeff told them about the Outkast tribe.

Lori

Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 08:21 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
He did say "protein". hmmmmmm I wonder what kind?

Sia

Sunday, November 02, 2003 - 10:34 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Since Osten's team had failed to vote him out on more than one occasion, maybe sending the Outcasts tribe in with their little purple strips of fabric was MB's way of ensuring that Osten would finally be tossed out!

Warrenn

Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 01:32 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Does anyone remember the exact text Jeff said about building the pole when he was explaining the rules? I seem to recall it being something like "use the string on the ground to make a pole". To me that means use the string and only the string. If he had said, "tie the pole up any way you can," then I could understand how they could use scarfs, pants, bras, whatever. But I seem to recall him saying to use the string to make the pole.

It seems that if Lil could disregard the instructions and use fabric to tie the pole together, why not just use the flagpole instead of building a pole?

Teachmichigan

Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 04:10 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Chy...according to Yahoo insider videos, the outsiders did NOT know WHY they were being sent back in. They found out the same time Drake and Morgan did. They knew they would be in a challenge, but from what some of them said on the video, they thought it would be a trip to see a relative, etc....NOT a chance to get back in the game.

However, even without that knowledge, I do think they were MUCH more rested, fed and ready to go.

I'll have to go watch the instructions for the challenge and let ya' know Warrenn....now I'm curious as to what he said.

Teachmichigan

Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 04:19 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Ok...here's EXACTLY what he said. In the second section "on the ground you'll find scattered sticks and string. Use those to build a pole to reach for keys..."

Teachmichigan

Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 04:20 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
oops...meant to add....

He didn't say ONLY use sticks and strings and he didn't say DON'T use anything else...but if you ask me, they didn't follow instructions. "USE THOSE," to me, means USE THE STRING AND STICKS. Hmmmm...wonder if anyone will contest it. (or do we just drive ourselves nuts and the Survivors themselves don't realize / care about these little details?)

Azriel

Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 05:35 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Teach, in Osten and Shawn's CBS interview, Osten pointed out that the other team used the strips of fabric and he implied that he thought that was unfair. Whether he will pursue it is another thing.

Surreal_Badger

Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 06:21 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
call me a cynic, but don't you think that if MB was going to go to all the trouble of keeping the outcasts around, keeping them on starvation rations, etc, that he'd want to MAKE SURE they would get back in to the game?!?

since when was this game ever "fair"?!

Warrenn

Thursday, November 06, 2003 - 08:53 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I would think that "Use those to build a pole" would mean use those and only those. The implication is that the scattered sticks and strings are the only devices which can be used. For one team to use devices which give them an advantage is completely unfair and the voted out members have a valid argument that I think could be taken to court.

If Lil just happened to have some duct tape on her, would it have been okay for her to use that to make the pole? I don't think so.

Pantageas

Thursday, November 06, 2003 - 12:08 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
If using other materials than the strings was against the rules, the Outcasts would have been told so during the competition. So far, all they are guilty of is showing more ingenuity than their counterparts.

Enigma2

Thursday, November 06, 2003 - 12:17 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Pantageas: you are being added to my list of people-who-think-the-way-I-like.

Actually, you are giving my reason why Lil should be one of the outcasts to return: she seemed to be the one who was doing most of the 'pole-work.' And the outcasts, then had the only pole which did not collapse.

Both the Morganites and the Drakettes could have done the same thing (if they had been smart enough to think of it). They could have ripped up their clothes into strips. (And we haven't seen 'gray blobs' in several weeks now...)

Warrenn

Friday, November 07, 2003 - 06:39 am EditMoveDeleteIP
*You* might think it's okay to use other things, but there is an implicit implication about how things are to be done when instructions like that are given.

What if the instructions were "In a chest you will find pieces of wood. Use those pieces of wood to build a ladder." Now what if a team decided that some of the wood was too flimsy so they substituted some bamboo they found on the ground for the flimsy wood. That would not be permitted. They don't have to say that other material cannot be used because it is implied in the statement that only the pieces of wood in the chest are to be used.

They also didn't say you couldn't push the cage over or have the whole team lift the cage and walk it over to the key. The implicit implication in instructions is that you can do what they say and you can't do what they don't.

Pantageas

Friday, November 07, 2003 - 01:01 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Warrenn, you're assuming that the exact (and seemingly limiting) instructions that you heard when you WATCHED the program were the same exact instructions that the tribes were given AT THE TIME. Remember, what you are listening to are the voiceovers that JP did later. I still say that if the Outcasts had broken the rules, they would have been told so DURING the challenge.

Kep421

Friday, November 07, 2003 - 01:18 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I agree Pantageas... this whole discussion is moot. If rules had been broken, Jeff would have pointed it out at the time of the challenge.

I remember reading in a thread somewhere that according to a new magazine show done on reality shows Survivor would stop a challenge and have it started over if contestants didn't follow the rules, either because they didn't remember them or didn't listen to them.

I'm sure that the Outcasts would have been disqualified on the spot if the strips weren't allowed. My personal belief is that they were given the strips on purpose because the Ghost Tribe twist really wouldn't have been effective if the Outcasts had lost the challenge!!