Archive through October 06, 2003
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TV ClubHouse: Archive: General Discussions: Why Lilian??: Archive through October 06, 2003

Lauram

Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 07:00 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Can you Lilian lovers please explain to me what she actually did while on the show to garner your support. I agree that a Scout Leader would potentially have a lot to offer, but what did she actually offer the tribe?

Leadership skills?? I think that Lilian had said post boot that her husband told her to "leave the scout leader hat off" meaning don't take charge. As thus she did not want to take the leadership role.

Personality?? It seems that she connected with the tribe's other outcast (Skinny Ryan) and didn't connect with the rest of the tribe. When Ryan was voted out, she became meloncholy.

Skills?? In her post fishing confessional she said that she just wanted to do something to "shine" but that failed. This leads me to believe that she didn't really shine at any other camp/tribe activities.

She seemed to me to be someome who tried real hard, but didn't necessarily pull it through.

Eliz87

Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 07:25 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I don't really understand it either, but it just could be a case of rooting for the underdog (which I happen to do quite a lot).

Lillian really seemed interested in making her mark, but she flew a little too far under the radar to do so, unfortunately, it seems.

I think it's hard for an older person to contribute to a younger tribe without appearing bossy or authoritative, so that was Lillian's biggest challenge, IMO. But she was so nice and honest, it just made some of us want to cheer her on, I suppose.

Needmylifeback

Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 07:52 am EditMoveDeleteIP
From what they have shown us in the episodes....Lillian was one of the few who did not complain about the conditions...she had the skills...her thoughts on what should be done were seemingly turned down...(and that was because the 'youngsters' didn't want to be told)

Example: Her thoughts of needing water as one of the important things those first couple of days...her take on "We need to fish more"...said a whole lot more, (I took it as the others weren't really doing anything....), her comments on Osten when he was complaining he was spent ...but, then was tossing a coconut around..The fact that she was the only one in the tribe to complete HER part successfully in the dive for treasure challenge (She took the pearls from Ryan O., put them in the chest, dove for her own treasure and put that in the chest before coming back to tag Andrew....EVEN ANDREW brought back his treasure to the beach! (Of course by that time it was too late for Osten/Tijuana/Darrah to do anything)..She was intuitive, observant and hard working in a climate of people who don't seem to care or if they do they want to find who to blame for it and not take the responsibility themselves.

(The lost fish hook....it seems they started out with 4 or 5 - it was mentioned on the episode - so who lost the first 3???? Yes the last fish hook is important...but, I bet that they didn't blame the other person for losing them...but, then that was probably Ryan O! - And what did he think would have happened if he had accompanied Lillian on that fishing trip????...Ah but, I digress...)

It had nothing to do with her having the Scout Uniform on...Although that did show how well those uniforms are made!:)

Lauram

Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 08:38 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Need: I would agree that she has good sense regarding the water, however I don't know that she ever voiced these thoughts to the tribe -- only to us in confessional.

Also agree that "we need more fish" was a good idea, but others thought that too -- they must have if they had been out fishing and had lost the other hooks. But they had suggested they go together, and she went by herself. (Possibly hoping to "shine" alone -- instead she alone lost that hook) it was a gamble that didn't go her way.

You and I may have seen her take on Osten, but did she ever talk to him? or anyone else?

Lorry

Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 09:05 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Why I was rooting for Lil???? Mainly because I felt she was treated as an outsider by her own tribe. Whether that was because of her own actions or just because that is how it went, I was unable to determine from the show.

From what I saw on the show, it appeared she wanted to be part of the tribe, but because of her age, perhaps because of the uniform, or even her friendship with Ryan S, she stated she felt that she and her suggestions were more or less ignored.

It was obvious that her teammates did not attempt to include her, and their team leader, Andrew went as far as to promise that he would let her know if she was going, when in fact he did not. That to me, showed how little regard or respect they held for her, or her abilities.

I think the combination of not wanting to override Andrew's leadership, or lack of, and the fact that her diligent work on behalf of the team being overlooked simply led to her being voted off, while less skilled, less enthusiastic teammates were given a free ride.

My impression of Lil remains that she was capable, enthusiastic, and hard working. There was little or no reason to vote her off.. IMO

Enigma2

Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 09:12 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Needmylifeback has said it all above. But, in addition: Lil said, distinctly, at tribal council: "We need to fish"; she said "We need to get water, NOW" in front of a group; and she went on her solo fishing trip because –as she said– no one else was awake.

I also think that Lill was just a wee bit paranoid (about her age) and was afraid of a more forceful verbal expostition of her opinions.

I also have another possible theory regarding Lill's departure. And before I state it, might I say that I do not intend to offend anyone. I am only observing and engaging in conjucture. But:

Andrew –who has supported Osten (who is obviously not stonger than Rupert) and Tijuana (a very pretty girl who has not made any obvious contributions to the team)– may be a 'politically correct fundamentalist' (to coin a phrase). His bio states that he has spent time in Africa. He met his wife there. His hero (unlike the others who have primarily named a parent) is Nelsen Mandela. Is it possible that Andrew (who seems to have considerable influence over tribal votes) is more influenced, in his decisions, by a sense of social awareness, than in an objection evaluation of a member's value to the team?

Lorry

Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 09:28 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Wow! Enigma you never cease to amaze me with your ability to see so many sides of any situation.

I'm not sure about your theory, but anything is possible... and Andrew is an attorney... He could be thinking of his public image, in relation to his future after Survivor.

I really think Andrew simply is out of his element and not making wise decisions. He is a bit too self centered to see the other's possible contributions, unless they are obvious ones like Osten's strenth, and Osten's appreciation of Tijuana's "Nubian Princess" appearance. (Those were Osten's words in regard to Tijuana) IOWs to keep Osten, he might feel he has to keep Tijuana as well, regardless of our seeing her working or not working as part of the team.

Tishala

Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 09:40 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I think all decisions about a team member's value are almost always subjective. I also think, BTW, what Nelson Mandela is a fine role model for anyone--very few people could remain imprisoned for demanding equality for as long as Mr. Mandela did and harbor no hatred for his persecuters.

The idea that he is making decisions based on "political correctness," to me, sounds awfully close to what Mr. Limbaugh said about "social concern[s] in the NFL. The media has been very desirous that a black quarterback do well, black coaches and black quarterbacks doing well." It wasn't true about Donovan McNabb and I doubt that comment is true about Andrew. BTW--do you know that only 1/3 of Mauritius' population--the place his wife is from--is actually black, even though the post seems to tether Osten/Tijuana/Mandela/Africa/Andrew's wife in incredibly facile ways? I do know, though, because I have been there.

I would have voted off Lil just because of her underpants, but that's my shallowness.

Lorry

Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 09:44 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Shame on you Tishala!!! I am wearing those same undies right now... and damn... they are comfortable... rofl... Just Kidding, you made some good points...but lay off my undies, and Lil's. hehe

Csnog

Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 10:32 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Andrew believed Lil about Nicole and thought she was a very trusted person. This team has put too much trust in Andrew as a leader. Darrah should have been booted but aparently they think youth should come before age. I still think Lil will be back in a twist that Jeff throws at us. If she does I hope Andrew and the rest of the tribe feel her bite.

Lauram

Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 10:36 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Being that this isn't spoiler thread, I have been hesitant to mention the supposed twist. But since the cat is out of the bag ... that is why I am so curious as to Lil's capabilities. As yet, I have perceived her actions as somewhat inept, however I am thinking she will show us some stuff which enables her to come back. And then she will have to shine so as to do better the second time around!! (IMO)

Needmylifeback

Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 12:28 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
But..Tishala...Osten has been predominately displaying his UNDIES for the past 9 days! LOL!:)

Tishala

Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 12:30 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Yeah but I LIKES those undies! Woohoo!

Maris

Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 12:40 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
My view of Lill going in was she showed promise, having experience for so many years as a scout leader. (I also thought Rupert would be the biggest loser and someone I would detest.........)

Having been proven wrong right from the start about Lill and Rupert, I see Lill as someone who just played badly. It could of course be all editing but she was portrayed as someone who held herself back from her teammates and seemed to be somewhat paranoid about her age. She aligned herself with the other outcast in her tribe and bemoaned their fates. She was a good swimmer but very bad at selling her attributes to her team.

It is fine to say we need to fish but Ryan O was right, she could have waited a little bit before trouncing off to catch fish. Then coming back with no fish and NO hook, sealed her fate. She didnt seem to understand that it wasnt losing the hook per se, it was losing the hook after declaring in an accusing fasion that she would go fishing. It was almost poetic justice to her teammates that she lost the hook.

I have no experience with scouting or what is involved with boy scouts. I am assuming that scout leaders need to know things and to have some common sense in the outdoors. Lill seems to have left all of that on the yacht when she jumped overboard.

Csnog

Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 03:45 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
In her interviews Lil said that she couldn't get them to do anything. Most of the time was spent going over their game plan that they lost.

What in the world did the men do with that huge net? All we saw was them playing catch on the beach. 3 other hooks were lost by different people.

Osten almost capsized his own teams boat by standing up in it.

What has Darrah contributed to the tribe? She didn't even know how to build a fire. Lil showed them how to keep it going while they went to TC each time, even the time she knew she was going.

They kept Darrah simply because she was younger.

The next competition that includes swimming is Osten going to help them?

Andrew just plays the blame game. Everyone else's fault.

Editing plays a lot into it as we see with what they show on BB show.

Sia

Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 06:02 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I think Lil's work ethic got her voted out. The younger tribemates who want to spend precious hours of daylight lying around sleeping don't like a hardworking older person to outshine them. That's my opinion.

Catfat

Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 09:07 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I think I remember some discussion between Andrew and others about what the tribe would lose if certain people were voted out, and they decided they could all do Lil's jobs, such as making fire. Does anyone else remember this?

Jane_Bond

Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 09:50 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
One thing I know from personal experience is that if you are a normally capable and confident person, someone who is charming and easily a "top dog" in their own realm can be bumped straight to the bottom of the pecking order by a few alpha males and females.

Morgan has more than its fair share of alpha personalities - the kind of people who, regardless of their capabilities, can roll right over just about anyone. I think this is what happended with Lill.

In her own realm, Lill and even Ryan S are probably pretty intelligent and capable people but when the tribes coalesced with Andrew, Osten and Tijuana, they were dumped in favour of the more forceful personalities.

In Drake we are seeing more of what I always call "beta" personalities - and these are the kinds of people who are ultimately the more useful, work better in teams as they don't try to force leadership. With this mix of people, the alphas are tempered and forced to submit to the common will.

Enigma2

Monday, October 06, 2003 - 02:45 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Odds and Ends re Lill:

—Lorry, I can only imagine what would have been said if Lill had been wearing a thong under that scout's uniform...

—Maris: Lill had been waiting (9 days, I believe) for someone to fish. How much longer did she need to wait?

—Mauritius is not only multi-racial, it is multi-religious, with Hindus, Christians and Muslims being well-represented. Of the many European countries which have occupied the island, the French seem to have left the most lasting impresssion, with French –followed by English and creole– being the most common language. (I try to watch the French daily news, and I had become interested in Mauritius several years ago, when I had found that the not-too-distant island of 'Reunion' is still a part of France.)

Tishala, by finding things that are "not" written between lines, you have been fighting windmills.

I find it interesting that when Rupert went off on his own to fish, he is praised. But when Lill engaged in her solo fishing venture, she is criticized and gets-the-boot.

Maris

Monday, October 06, 2003 - 03:38 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Rupert didnt go off on his own to fish grumbling about everyone else doing nothing. Au Contraire, Rupert saw an opportunity of making himself invaluable by providing services to his group that they didnt necessarily want to provide. Rupert also didnt want anyone using his spear and was quite upset when someone did go fish. he saw it as HIS job.

As I have said, we dont know what the impact of the editing is. It isnt that Lil went off by herself to fish, it is the impression I got from the editing that she was pretty vocal in complaining about nobody doing anything and being lazy. Even if they were all lazy, she wasnt helping herself by accusing them of being lazy.

Enigma2

Monday, October 06, 2003 - 03:43 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Addenda to Odds and Ends

To: 'the name is Bond, Jane Bond'

In my household, I am the beta. And my dog, Meresankh, is the alfa. And, yes, as you say, she finds me useful (I can operate a can-opener.) (I have been trained to fetch goodies from stores for her.) (And she can instill a sense of guilt in me when I have not behaved in a manner which she finds appropriate to the tribe.)
However, I do not feel that she will ever be 'tempered and forced to submit to the common will' And I am sure that she will never be voted out of the tribe.

Enigma2

Monday, October 06, 2003 - 03:56 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Maris: You got in there between me and myself...

I totally agree with you. We are forced to evaluate the survivors on the slim (and –perhaps– misleading) evidence of the edited tv shows (The one advantage of the BigBrother live feeds was in that we could discern when the producers were misleading us in their attempt to provide an 'interesting' program for tv...) Is Lill really the person that I have perceived her to be??

Maris

Monday, October 06, 2003 - 05:51 am EditMoveDeleteIP
As Holmes would say, Theres the rub Watson.

For all we know she may have rented that Scoutmasters uniform.

Badabing

Monday, October 06, 2003 - 06:01 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I dream of the day when a network or producer will find the "cajones" to air a reality show in wich all contestants will be over 40 years old.

I want to see a different type of strategy based on knowledge and deduction skills more than on brawns, bravado and hormones. Not that younger people are not intelligent and knowledgeable, i just want to see for once a show that caters to an older more mature audience.

Again, nothing against the younger crowd, just a dream i have.

Maris

Monday, October 06, 2003 - 06:15 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Badabing, its the twenty somethings that have the disposable income and spend the money on sponsors products. I dont see a reality show coming down the pike sponsored by Tagament and Cumidin.

The Burger Kings and Coors target their audiences which are the under 40s. Even putting that aside the over forties we got this year on Big Brother and Survivor were nice people but didnt know how to play the game or played it badly. At least what I saw on TV indicates they played badly.

Maybe what we need are some over 40s who can actually participate in a reality show who know what they are doing.

Edited to add: Rupert is 39 which is pretty close to forty in my book and may end up being the best survivor player ever. He is able to work with his teammates, and age doesnt seem to be a factor with him. He makes no issue of his age and just gets down to business. That is the kind of player I like to see regardless of their age. Age isnt the factor in why people play badly and get evicted/voted off. Being over 40 doesnt make someone deserving of the grand prize, playing the game well does. Rupert might very well do it.