Ted Rogers Jr.
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TV ClubHouse: Archives: Ted Rogers Jr.
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Archive through October 01, 2002 25   10/01 09:14pm
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Ladytex

Friday, December 27, 2002 - 03:28 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I agree with you, Car. Many of these types don't see anything wrong with what they say. That is the scary part. They are so insensitive to how their remarks or actions could hurt others. I wish it was out in the open, that way if he truly is unaware of how his remark was taken, he could become aware.

Seamonkey

Friday, December 27, 2002 - 10:26 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Seems like it was Ted who brought it out in public. Helen stated that she simply answered his question and didn't think he should confront Clay since it had nothing to do with the two of them..

Whit4you

Saturday, December 28, 2002 - 06:14 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Well to me there's something about this entire thing that doesn't add up.

Why would Ted be asking Helen "Did Clay say anything racist?" - they spent how much time together day in and day out - if Ted thought Clay was a racist why wouldn't he find out for himself rather then asking someone who was at the time very pissed for being voted off and likely to give a biased answer?

Why wouldn't he ask "Do you think Clay is a racist" that question might make more sense IF Ted had any reason to believe that Clay might be.

Clay did nto appear to be racist in any way to me - he was raised in the south back when they had seperate drinking fountains and such so there's bound to be some residuals of that but overall I saw nothing to indicate him being a racist.

So Ted asking Helen this out of the blue just makes no sense - why didn't he ask that of any of the others ... why Helen... ya know what I mean? Just seems somethings amiss in this whole deal.

Wiseolowl

Monday, December 30, 2002 - 11:26 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I agree with you , Whit. I'm just an observer from Canada, and grew up in the days when we looked on with absolute amazement in the late 50' s and 60's when the injustices going on in the South particularly and even in the North were just not comprehensible - but 40 years have passed and it seems to me that even though the racial "problem" is still out there, more often than not, your African American citizens - even those like Ted -who has obviously succeeeded in making a good life for himself - just need to keep looking under rocks to find injustices of even minor import - when I think most Americans -even a Clay - is trying to adjust to the new reality and the true reality of the inherent worth of all people - despite two centuries of conditioning to the contrary ,it bugs me.

The African American posters on this board may disagree and they are coming from a different place, but it seems to me that after 140 years since the end of the Civil War and 40 years since the passage of the Civil Rights Act, that it's time for many African Americans to start looking forward to the opportunities that are there for those who will take advantage of them and stop listening to the politcians and "civil rights" leaders like Jesse Jackson who would continue to exploit old divisions for their own purposes.
I can get away with this because I'm not an American. If I were, this kind of post would be at the least politically incorrect if not racist.
Many of these Democratic Senators - like Clinton and Harry whatever his name is from Nevada have been claiming for example that "the Republuicans did eveytrhing in their power to keep African American voters from the polls " in recent elections - these kinds of allegations- unproven by evidence are examples of this kind of rhetoric which in my view are typical of this constant racial exploitation - if it's true , where is the NAACP to insitute legal challenges like Thurgood Marshall did a few decades before? This kind of stuff is in my view nothing short of tragic as we are now well in to the 21st century.
People of colour - Indian/Packistanis, Asians come to North America with nothing and through hard work and a positive attitude within a generation establish good productive lives for themselves and their families - What the heck is going on here?

Ladytex

Monday, December 30, 2002 - 12:27 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
*poked my head in, read that last post and quickly left before I said something totally inappropriate to the uninformed poster

Wiseolowl

Monday, December 30, 2002 - 12:43 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Ladytex - I kind of like stirring up controversy - I may be wrong - but am not uninformed . would like to hear an informed response from your point of view. It just seems that most folks are very uncomfortable about talking about this topic - and if that's the case so be it - just bury your heads in the sand for another hundred years.

Seamonkey

Monday, December 30, 2002 - 02:25 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Just to answer one of Whit's questions.. "why Helen?" Because he asked this question of Helen after he and Helen had been voted out.. he and Helen were the only ones from thier tribe on the jury.. so she was the only other one to have observed Clay in action.

Whatever it was that Helen had heard, apparently Brian later said he also heard.

I still don't think it was a great thing to bring up when Ted did, but he did..

Spear

Monday, December 30, 2002 - 02:30 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
For what it's worth, the NAACP did file a lawsuit about the 2000 US presidential elections in Florida -- and it was settled a few months ago. Read about it here.

Wiseolowl

Monday, December 30, 2002 - 03:11 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Spear your article refers to the 2000 election - not the 2002 election that my comments and the Senators referred to . And speaking of the 2000 election - at least 2 of the counties referred to in that article - Dade and Broward were supervised by Democrats. As to the overall reforms cited in the article, were they instituted to correct faults put in by the Jeb Bush administration or were they inherently in the system when the Democrats - including the illustrious Bob Graham was Governor of Florida?
Moreover the comments recently by these politicians are not restricted to Florida - but to the entire South including Loiusiana.
Politics is rough and tough - everywhere - my recollection is that hundreds if not thousands of foreign service votes were excluded from the 2000 election in Florida on a technicality argued by Florida Demoocrats -the point I was trying to make is that it seems to me that one of your political parties seems to want to exploit and divide people over it and in the long run it's bad news for everybody.

Spear

Monday, December 30, 2002 - 03:49 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
My mistake -- I thought you were referring to the 2000 elections so I thought a correction was needed. I'm not going to argue politics here. I'm not American either and neither party is "my" party.

Ladytex

Monday, December 30, 2002 - 06:27 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Wiseowl, I am not in a political party, I support candidates, not party lines. And yes, you are uninformed. When you have been denigrated because of your color, when you have received an unequal education because your neighborhood school cannot attract the best teachers, when you cannot do your job to the best of your ability because some idiot doesn't want "some little ole black girl" working on his equipment, when you see people on subways or other public transportation system move when you get on just because of your color, then you come back in here and we can discuss the "history" of the thing. I happen to think its burying your head in the sand to pretend that it doesn't happen anymore just cuz you think the civil rights war was "over" 40 years ago.

Car54

Monday, December 30, 2002 - 06:41 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I think Ted knew Brian made the call on booting him, then Helen had the same thing happen. Both were mad at Brian, but didn't want to vote for Clay...so needed a public reason to justify not voting for him.

Either way Ted voted, in his mind he looks like a loser... vote for Brian, you vote for the guy who betrayed you, vote for Clay, you vote for the lazy guy you hate.... so it is much easier if the guy you hate has done something offensive you can point to. Same thing happened in BB3...every time some one got booted, the others found a reason to justify it.

Csnog

Monday, December 30, 2002 - 09:20 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I thought that Ted would have learned "something" from the Ghandi episode.

"Not knowing the whole story"

He did not give Clay the same slack that he wanted for himself.

If Helen would NOT say what it was, then Ted should not have brought it up until he had the facts.

Maybe Helen wanted to seal Clays fate and make sure Brian won. She disliked Clay more than Brian until she saw the shows.

Kmjm

Tuesday, December 31, 2002 - 01:04 am EditMoveDeleteIP
While I don't want to get into an argument with Wiseolowl- who I'm sure is too wise and old for this- I do think as a fellow Canadian that I should point out that we are not immune to the effects of racism in the Great White North- either historical or contemporary.

Car54

Tuesday, December 31, 2002 - 01:24 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Csnog, exactly. I think it probably feels better to be able to say...I didn't vote for him because he is racist than I didn't vote for him because I don't like him.

Wiseolowl

Tuesday, December 31, 2002 - 11:11 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Guys - maybe we should drop the race argument - it is very complex - for those of you who have followed my posts over the years you may have read some of mine which have argued that racial divide has been the dominant but sublimated issue of American history. And my country , Canada, has not been immune to it. We accepted black slaves to Canada after the Civil War as the last station of the underground railway - but for a hundred years afterwards never accepted these immigrants as full citizens.
Even when travelling on Canadian railways back in the 60's , it was hard to ignore the fact that all of the porters were black - but there is little doubt that none of the conductors, engineers etc. were.
In the seventies while working my way through college, near my home town in Southwestern Ontario - and where the descendents of many escaped slaves live, I worked at a large amusement park - hundreds of local people were employed - but virtually the only jobs available for our black citizens were the washroom attendant jobs that were exclusively given to older ladies of colour. Ours has been a more subtle form of discrimination.

But that has truly changed here- our country has evolved so dramatically in the last 20 years that it is truly breathtaking.

Growing up only 20 miles from Detroit, and having many American relatives living there, I have commented on my experiences observing the racial interplay that pervaded Detroit culture during the 60's and 70's. and although my American cousins were "liberals", their theoretical views on race relations and the realities of their daily lives having to deal with an increasingly integrated culture were often at odds.

It seems to me though, that great progress is being made here and in the U.S.- and without ever forgetting the totally inexcusable errors of the past , and being mindful that old prejudices still exist, I just resent politicians who would ignore the change in attitudes that have occurred and would use old wounds to exploit people in the present for their own ends. In the case of Ted , I was disappointed but can understand to a point why he would fall into that trap of suspecting the worst - but it seems to me that at this point in time , if you really want to heal the old wounds, you at least look at any person with an open mind , discover the truth and then make your judgements.

Squaredsc

Tuesday, December 31, 2002 - 07:34 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
ladytex, great response. i doubt i would have been able to be as articulate. owl, being open minded is what got my people into slavery in the first place. and i will end it there.

Wiseolowl

Friday, January 03, 2003 - 10:02 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Open-mindedness did not get people into slavery - Africans fought heroically against it - it is a fact of history that the Arab slave traders who were the middlemen in finding the slaves had superior weaponry and unfortunately African collaborators to help them.
I have no doubt that there is racial prejudice in the U.S. It happens in every culture where minorities exist - it's a primal reaction. There is prejudice here in Canada against French Canadians - and by the way that extends to Floridians who turn their nose up at the French-Canadian tourists. The prejudice is magnified if the minority is visibly different. There is prejudice against Asians in Africa , prejudice against whites in Zimbabue, against Chinese in Malaysia and on it goes.
The question is , at this point in history is whether the culture looks back or looks forward. Never forget the history, but it seems that North American culture is the best hope for at least minimizing these differences.
When it comes to elections, tribalism comes to the fore- whether it's the Irish tribe, the Anglo-Saxon tribe, the Jewish tribe, the Mexican tribe the white tribe, the black tribe etc. and seems to put people into some sort of comfort zone - regardless of what the politicians policies are - It just bugs me when politicians of any political stripe use this for their purposes; and in the most open society in the world - the U.S. where people seem to be genuinely trying to bridge these gaps that a Ted eg. would take the word of one person to condemn another - and by the way looking at all of the boards , Helen has never disclosed what Clay supposedly said. From what I can tell , he is trying to find out what he supposedly said. The fact that he is a good ole boy from the South, seems to automatically condemn him - which is just another form of prejudice. Talk about racial profiling.

Seamonkey

Friday, January 03, 2003 - 11:21 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Arab slave traders? I know that the Brits were heavily in charge of the slave trade to the colonies. I'd heartily recommend the book I just finished.. Slaves in the Family (see Library threads) as the author, who descended from one of the largest slave owning and trading families in South Carolina has done a great deal of careful research, careful reaching out and what he reports is well worth knowing.

Wiseolowl

Friday, January 03, 2003 - 11:36 am EditMoveDeleteIP
The Arabs were largely the middlemen. They went out into the field - to borrow an inappropriate analogy to what happened - to gather up the slaves - transported them to the coasts of Africa - where the British and others - guess the Americans were still British till '76 - took delivery. My reference to the Arabs was to make the point that the victims were outgunned in their efforts to evade the slave traders. The British , the American colonists and the rest of the world who watched on without protest are equally culpable.
By the way , slavery was outlawed in the British Empire in 1808. Too bad the "colonists" didn't follow suit.

Seamonkey

Friday, January 03, 2003 - 07:12 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
<Seamonkey opts to leave the room to join Ladytex and Squared, but still recommends that book>

Car54

Friday, January 03, 2003 - 08:30 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
<Did we find out Clay was Arab or something? What is this all about?>