Archive through May 20, 2002
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The ClubHouse: Archives: Thoughts on the Finale & Reunion Show: Archive through May 20, 2002

Rob_Hal

Monday, May 20, 2002 - 08:37 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I was disappointed with the finale.

First of all, I was hoping that Paschal would win, and I found it extremely unfair the manner in which he was eliminated. Like someone else pointed out, he didn't recieve one vote the entire time on the island!

Second of all, I agree with the opinion that Vee overhyped her own strategy during the game. She stated that she never rode anyone's coattails during the game, but, in my opinion, she was worse than Neleh. N&P were a team, a duo making the decisions. Vee was just going along with Sean. Neleh, Sean, Paschal and Kathy spearheaded the alliance against John's four. Vee just went along for the ride.

The way I see it, Neleh really got two votes (Zoe, Paschal) for her and Vee got one vote (Sean) for her. All the other votes weren't votes for the person to win, they were votes for the other person to lose. Kathy was still understandbly angry with Vee for doing that last minute switch which made her give her vote to Neleh, and John, Tammy and Robert were obviously still bitter about being betrayed by Neleh, even though they would have done the same to her had they been put in her position.

The reunion show, I loved, even if Rosie didn't talk to Gina at all. What was up with that? Grrr...

Spunky

Monday, May 20, 2002 - 08:39 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Kathy's mistake was to save Neleh by voting Sean out of the game. Neleh repayed Kathy by cutting her out at the end, a dishonest move. All Neleh had to do was to outlast Vee on the last challenge and save Kathy by voting Vee out. But then again, she may have realized Kathy's popularity and knew for sure Kathy would have received the million. I wonder why she thought she could have had a better chance with Vee..
If she tried harder to save Kathy she would have been the hero even while losing the million.

Neko

Monday, May 20, 2002 - 08:41 am EditMoveDeleteIP
No offense to anyone who is quite religious, but that group continually saying how God was helping them out was annoying and got on my nerves.

I mean, if God was helping them all out, why did this person last longer than so and so?

I still enjoyed Survivor 4. Cried twice during the Finale. Damn MB and his evil sad music and Fallen Comrades Torch walk.

I thought Rosie did a much better job than Grumble.
I laughed much more then than I had for any of his Reunion Shows.
I did wish the Reunion show had been a bit longer though, then Rosie could have talked to Peter, Patricia, Zoe, and Robert since they seemed a bit left out.

Gabe was such a cutie! I squealed, yes, squealed when I saw him.
Don't get me wrong though, he can't hold a torch to Ethan.See the torch joke??

In all, I'll be watching Survivor 5 but as Mindyrama said, if this focuses on Religion and God again. I don't think I'll be able to watch it.neko

Sbw

Monday, May 20, 2002 - 09:11 am EditMoveDeleteIP
(RANT ON) First thing - I didn't want Tammy to win and I am not sure I liked her when she played the game. However, what she said at TC made perfect sense. Maybe it was a harsh way to put it, but..... I guess bottom line, pushing religion to win a game does not seem right to me. At first V seemed so religious and I felt good about V and her courage to practice her religion even during the course of a game for a million dollars. But instead, now I see she used her religion to win a million. I guess that is one thing in life I just don't play games with - religion.

I guess I thought greed was a sin. I guess I thought doing something wrong but justifying it by saying I will repent later still made it wrong.

I don't think there is anything wrong (against religious beliefs) with deceiving others in a game which uses deceipt as its premise but I do think manipulating the game and using your religion to do so is wrong, it is not a "bullying tool". I guess her "praise the Lord" and "Thank you Jesus" statements seem empty to me now.

I did like the way she developed a game plan with goals and kept her sights on winning. I guess I think she may be a "Survivor" but not the religious role model I thought she was.

I did not like the new "rock" tiebreaker. Paschal could have put Neleh on the chopping block to save himself but he was true to his word. I guess this morning I am not feeling to good about Survivor. If it is a game of chance, why don't they just send 16 to their camps and let us watch them endure and then at the end of 39 days, let them draw "rocks" to see who wins.

I loved this Survivor until last night and now I am not so sure..... (RANT OFF)

And yes I know I will be needing a lot of therapy to get over this. :)

Squaredsc

Monday, May 20, 2002 - 09:57 am EditMoveDeleteIP
first let me say that i see we have some new posters, welcome. 2nd i am utterly exhausted after last nite, i don't know how the lfp's for bb do it, but it was fun and excuse any typos or things that i missed altogether.

i also will say that i never thought of vee making the final 2 or even winning until someone started the topic of vee winning and it made me think and my deadpool votes reflect that, and i believe it was before acme(i think).

i will say that she did outwit, outplay, outlast all of the others, she did it in a way that wasn't obvious to me and in a way that i sometimes didn't understand, but she did it. i also don't think that she should have put religion into it so much, but then again she wasn't the Only One. and if she thinks that God helped her win, then who am i to say he didn't. i personally don't believe the Creator gets involved in these things, but that's me.

i loved the reunion show for rosie's energy, but she wasn't given enough time, too many da*n commercials. i also loved the gilligan's island song.

can't wait for s5, bb3, etc. i may even try to watch the mole 'cause sea and others like it.

ah well, it was a good run. i will miss sean and rob also ms. bat.....

turtle tatoo, turtle tatoo, turtle tatoo...
1

Webkitty

Monday, May 20, 2002 - 10:02 am EditMoveDeleteIP
~God helps those that help themselves~

Square, you rocked last night!

Mssilhouette

Monday, May 20, 2002 - 10:24 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Muse, I responded to a few points in your post more than directly towards you. I know a few of the points in your post I've seen elsewhere, not posted by you but by others. I was addressing those issues that I've seen before.

So yes some of what I wrote was directed at your post and some, most of it was my view on the finals....that's all.

Well anyway it's a mixed bag of opinions. I remember just 2 shows eariler that people didn't want Neleah to win at all neither Pappy or Neleah. LOL Can't please everyone.

Personally I think that Vee didn;t stab Kathy in the back, Kathy came to her with a plan at TC which Vee honored and she didn't vote for Kathy. That was the deal right, or did I hear something different. Kathy was supposed to win the final IC she didn't. Deal off. Vee makes another deal, on the spot.

Sorry but they can't share the 1 million and this isn't survivor 2 with Colby and Tina.

I was surprised when Vee won and happy about it. I wouldn't have been as happy if Neleah won. And saying that because she was 21 she didn't have better speaking skills c'mon now this ain't Survivor 1 its 4 and any contestants know by now that if they get to the final 2 that they have to speak well and form thoughts that are logical.

Vee won the Q&A because she answered the questions straight out as that bitter 4 some seemed to want some vailidation for playing the game as it is supposed to be played.

What amazes me is how mad someone can get just for playing a game better than they played it. John wouldn't have played under the radard, well maybe if he had he would have been sitting up there. Sorry but you need skills to know when to shut the heck up and stop trying to be the Alpha male.

I don't think Kathy was "most deserving" either, sure she was the most likeable because of her needing to chill out and relax and have fun. But it's a game and if you can't stand to make the hard decisions then don't play the game. If you don't come to cut a throat every now and again then don't apply.

Just consider this all my rantings because I already know that Vee is not gonna get the same press exposure that all the past winners got. I can see that coming and I think that's gonna say a lot and it'll be a sad lot. I do hope I wrong though, but I kinda doubt it.

Wink

Monday, May 20, 2002 - 11:09 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I wish MB could have at least clued us in a bit more about Vee's strategy instead of portraying her as an afterthought and cramming all her "strategic" decisions into the finale. We were never given the opportunity to see her portrayed as other than a god/loving/fearing, anti-drama bit player. I know I was totally caught up in Kathy's machinations to survive.

If only during that first episode after Vee made that comment at TC about Hunter being a great leader, they had shown Vee in a confessional giving us a clue she was setting him up, she might have caught my attention as a "player" who bore watching. Obviously it's not her fault he chose to portray her as a background player and that's one of the reasons I said in an earlier post I don't find her a compelling winner. She revealed a much more cunning side last evening but it was anti-climactic and too little, too late. It's all evil MB's fault. Congratulations Vee.

Shakes

Monday, May 20, 2002 - 11:24 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Missilhouette - Why do you think Vee won't get the same press coverage?

Seamonkey

Monday, May 20, 2002 - 11:31 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I'd like to have seen that clip too, Wink.. but maybe MB edited it out, or, maybe she never talked about her strategy on camera? Or maybe she didn't even have that strategy until it worked out? Hard to know now.

Julieboo

Monday, May 20, 2002 - 11:31 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I think (less Press) because by now the novelty of Survivor is wearing off. I don't think it is anything to be sad about though...

Mssilhouette

Monday, May 20, 2002 - 11:38 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Because a lot of people didn't really expect her to win and really wanted Kathy to win.

It kinda reminds me of a past olympic faux paus with Krista Yamaguchi (sp) remember how she was the one that came home with a medal but she barely got any press for it afterwards because the one everyone highlight previously wasn't the one that actually came home with a medal.

I feel it'll kinda be akin to that, perhaps more going to characters who were highlighted in the show than the one that actually won the thing.

I'd love to see more Rob and Sean but I don't wanna see more of the 2nd place person than the first.

Llkoolaid

Monday, May 20, 2002 - 11:39 am EditMoveDeleteIP
The first clue that I got that there was more to Vee than was portrayed was when she took out her notebook before fallen comrades. I thought you go girl, you have been playing this game from day one. She sure had me fooled. I don't mind at all that she won but I wish we had seen more of this side of her as the game went along.

Car54

Monday, May 20, 2002 - 11:45 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I was confused a couple of things that caused a lot of discussion:

The big fight in episode 12 about alliances vs relationships. Seems like Paschel and Neleh had something that attracted them as human beings from the beginning. When they started playing the game they took it to the next level evidently and made a formal pact not to vote each other.

All through that episode I just could not understand why the two teams of 2 were arguing this point, but last night someone, Vee I think made a statement that finally made me understand what she and Sean were saying.

She said that in their mind, there is a difference between having a friendship or relationship and having an alliance, and they felt that the other players assumed they were in an alliance because they had being African-American in common , when in fact they had a relationship for that reason.

In their minds they never formalized the pact and felt they might favor someone with whom they had a relationship, but had made no promises, thus each felt they were free to negotiate or maneuver. That is not to say that in a pinch, they would not still vote with or favor the person with which they have a relationship or friendship, but if it was the right thing for the game...they were free to play independently.


Paschel and Neleh had made a formal game pact...taking the relationship into the alliance stage.

For some reason this wasn't clear to me in Ep 12 when everyone was fighting, but last night, the statement about relationship vs alliance clicked for me and I finally understood where they were coming from. Not sure the other players did!

You guys already understood this, right? I am just a little slow!:)

Fruitbat

Monday, May 20, 2002 - 11:53 am EditMoveDeleteIP
We love you anyway Car.

Micknrc

Monday, May 20, 2002 - 12:09 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Precisely! Which is why I felt bad for Sean as he spluttered trying to explain himself and the difference you're seeing--and than to be called deceptive and disingenuous for it!

That is, Sean demonstrated his lack of a formal "pact" (of either the 'not voting against each other' or the 'we go to F2 together' varieties) with Vee right there on the spot-when he tried to negotiate with Kathy for her vote. Can you imagine Pappy leaving Neleh in the dust to cut himself an F2 deal?
He took a purple rock for her--would Sean have done it for Vee?

There you go....

Car54

Monday, May 20, 2002 - 12:20 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I guess the other point I was trying to make was that they felt that people assumed they were in an alliance because they were black.

Nobody assumed that Paschel and Neleh were allied because they were white. There were relationships and personal ties between both teams...it wasnt just because of color. That would have made me mad if I were Sean and Vee too.

I seriously doubt if either Sean or Vee would have sacrificed for each other if it came down to it. Frankly I am not so sure Pappy threw himself on his sword either... the women kind of bulldozed that decision pretty fast...Jeff tried to help him, but he was pretty much backed into a corner. He was a stand up guy about it tho.

MsSil, I hope you are wrong about Vee not getting press. She did a great job last night and this morning...she is intelligent, funny, and articulate...and she has a story to tell.

There has certainly been a decline in coverage of the last 2 Survivors, but she will do a good job "representin" as Sean put it. I thought both she and Neleh were lots of fun this morning and I am looking forward to seeing what they have to say.

Karuuna

Monday, May 20, 2002 - 01:06 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Okay, maybe it's just me, but was that sequence with Jeff taking the votes off the island (while we watched enticing shots of the backs of the heads of Neleh & Vee), climb into the helicopter, taking off in the helicopter, flying into NY, getting out of the helicopter, hailing a cab, getting in the cab, riding in the cab, getting out of the cab, etc, etc, etc, just WAY too long???? Whose brilliant editorial decision was that???

Rosie - fun host, the song itself was funny, but screeching the lyrics didn't quite work for me. I did like how she pointed out the most ridiculous of the survivors' behaviors and helped them laugh at themselves. Especially those self-righteous silly ones. ("What's up with that??" -- Rosie O'Donnell, approximately 11 times in 45 minutes.)

Vee -- I don't know whether she *deserved* the win or not, but I know God likes me better. In fact, I spoke with Her this morning and She assured me that if I was ever on Survivor, She'd make sure I won. Praise the Lord, I'm working on my audition tape as I type.

Pappy - Sometimes I loved him and sometimes I abhorred him, but this morning when they asked him about getting the purple rock, and he shrugged his skinny, dehydrated shoulders and said "how many times in life do you get a purple rock? You move on." I could have just hugged him. But I was afraid he'd faint. Or adopt me 'cause I'm so cute.

Now, maybe someone can help me out here. I'm still a bit confused about this do-whatever-you-want-to-get-the-cash-and-then-ask-for-forgiveness-later deal. I think I've found a whole new freeing approach to morality/spirituality. (Just forget about all those times when God says to me "Hey Kar, just grow up, will ya?") The sticking point for me is whether you have to feel bad *while* you're being bad, and then keep right on feeling bad while you're repenting. Or, is it okay to feel really good about being bad, and then just feel bad when you're repenting. Or maybe you can just feel good while you're being bad, and still feel good when you're repenting as you claim you didn't really mean to be that bad???

Oy, my head hurts.

Alaskagal

Monday, May 20, 2002 - 01:11 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I was severly disappointed in how Paschal got "voted off". I thought it was a competition between the 2 that the tie was against. How lame. Everyone wanted him to win. He could have changed his vote to Neleh, but instead got himself sent packing. What a joke.

Wow Tammy doesn't like to lose does she?? Sorry Tammy, but Susan's speech was much better.

I was disappointed that Vee won. I don't think she was deserving at all. She flip/flopped so much and was never honest or true to anyone. She had the holier than thou attitude but because she was religious she thought it should be excused. I see her in the same light I saw Tammy, but she just hid behind her religion.

And what is this with Neleh riding coat tails. She contributed just as much as anyone else.

Wow what a disappointment the finale was.

Lancecrossfire

Monday, May 20, 2002 - 01:12 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Well, in terms of Pappy getting voted off by the purple rock, it's important to rmember that whatever they decided had to be 1) unanimous, and 2) figured out in 2 minutes.

That means for Neleh to go, she had to agree to it as well. She didn't want to go. So even if Pappy had said he didn't want to be put on the chopping block, Neleh's saying she wanted to keep playing still put him there.

I give credit to Neleh and Pappy for sticking with their agreement--no voting each other off. Remeinds me of Rudy who kept to his word to richard Hatch up to and including voting for him to win.

Vee's agreement to Kathys offer included going to the final 2. Kathy included that in her pitch to Vee--which Vee agreed to.

Specific to the final show and the reunion--if Pappy hadn't gotten the purple stone, he would have been one of three remeining--and most likely would have still suffered the same medical problem as he did as a juror. So it would have been down to just two folks without a challenge.

Renunion show--I wish they would have talked to everyone. Rosie's energy was good, however she seemed to focus in on just a couple people for the entire show.

Car54

Monday, May 20, 2002 - 01:22 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Not defending her or anything, but just what did Vee do that was lying or deceitful.

She voted for Sarah...she didn't like Sarah and she voted for her.

She voted for Hunter. She thought he had a chance to go far and win and she helped get him off. Now if her pointing out he was the leader in TC helped get Rob and Sean provoked about him... he was a threat to her survival..she got him off.

Patricia got on her nerves, she voted for her.

At Rotu, she had the choice to go with the Rotus or stay with her original dwindling alliance. She took the path that seemed to keep her in the game longer. Plus Rob and Sean were being extremely big jerks.

When it became clear the Rotus were not the path to the endgame, she and Sean worked together to their own mutual benefit. If they needed to they were flexible enough to hook up with other teams to move along in the game.

She came to the game to get to the end. Every step of the way, she had a choice to make (as did every player there) about how to advance.

When it comes down to her agreement with Kathy, that is where it gets tricky... but it wasn't like they had a long time to think... cards fell a certain way and you play them... in each case, she made the best decision she could to get a step further.

I wish I understood this big deceitful thing people feel about Neleh and Vee. Sean was just as big a player and manipulator, and 4 days ago he apologized and we all love him.

The people were mad on the jury were the ones who did not see the opportunities and make the right choices to advance.

This was just a game (yeah I know, for a million dollars) but it was not about peoples health or their families! Vee did not hold anyone up at gunpoint...she just made her choices, and I don't see why she should have to apologize.

Just don't get it, or have no concience myself, I guess! :) I don't see anything in her game to be sorry about.

Crazydog

Monday, May 20, 2002 - 01:47 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
About the purple rock... yes it was unfair to Pascal, that was the whole point. The theory behind the rock is that the tribe has to cooperate. This would have been the tiebreaker had there been a 4-4 tie. The point is that while only two people were at risk, because the tribe could not agree, the penalty for failure to reach an agreement is that everyone else then becomes at risk. It just so happened that there were only three people left and one of them got ramrodded into going along. Had there been 8 people making the decision, and 5 others who had thought they were not up for elimination suddenly were at risk, you can bet they would have discussed it more. I could see a situation in which for the good of the tribe they might come to a consensus. Especially if they had already gone through the rock thing once, and then were about to face it again.

Personally I am glad that Vee won, I think she deserved it. But I also think that the feelings here against her are very strong and that there will be no convincing those of you to give her credit. Those of you who are criticizing her for not really doing much just don't seem to like her. Vee obviously manipulated everyone and managed to win.

In comparison, Ethan got himself into an alliance and just coasted his way to victory without really playing - his win was as boring as he was. But I got over it.

I don't see anything wrong with the manipulations that Vee did, they were certainly not on the level of Richard. Even Tina lied to her best friend on the show when she voted her out, and manipulated Keith to the end. John, Robert, Zoe and Tammy are just bitter she outplayed them.

Spear

Monday, May 20, 2002 - 01:51 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I agree, Car. I think this was where Neleh lost the million dollars. I think she could have convinced John to vote for her if she had made it clear that the reason she and Paschal switched sides against John and co. was not because they thought they were lying or being deceitful, but because it was the best strategy to get ahead in the game. It looked like she was trying to get this across but I think that if she had done a better job of explaining that it was a matter of strategy and not integrity, John would have been the most susceptible to changing his vote for her.

Fruitbat

Monday, May 20, 2002 - 01:51 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I think Vee may have been under fire for agreeing to take Kathy to the finals then jumping at the chance to go with Neleh.

She felt it was a tad sleezy herself, even in the text of the game, or she would not have asked for forgiveness nor talked about regretting that at the final TC.

Sure it is a game but there are clean ways to lie and plot then there are some gray areas. Zoe fell into this too. You must conive with conviction or it does not work. You can't play two ends at once.
Her constant reference to God, the lord and Jesus skewed things too. Had she kept her religion to herself she may not have taken such flak.

Merlin

Monday, May 20, 2002 - 01:53 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Karruna, can I get you something for the pain in your head? What a hilarious post you made.

My favorite part was......<<but I know God likes me better. In fact, I spoke with Her this morning>>