IC Strategy--Make or Break Them
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The ClubHouse: Archives: IC Strategy--Make or Break Them

Lancecrossfire

Thursday, April 18, 2002 - 10:22 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
It seems that tonight's IC came with a price some were not aware of. What a stroke of genius by MB!

The players had a chance to take a couple different approaches with this challenge. They could spread out who they went after, go ater those they thought would be most likely to hold them from sinning (or at least make it appear that way), or go after who they were against in terms of an alliance.

The funny thing is, most of those people wouldn't have walked up and said to all the rest, "I'm in an alalince with so-and-so, and we are against so-and-so."

Well, at laest I thought they wouldn't have done that. Goofy me though--because that is xactly what happened in the immunity challenge tonight. MB provided a way to allow meople to "say" what they never would have said with words. And look at the number of people who bit on it hook, line and sinker.

I see this one appraoch to be dangerous. Add to that the issue of how many saw some "cockiness" thrown in.

They could have played it with a bit more (ok, a lot more) low key approach. I think that MB caught most of them off guard and got them to say way more than they ever would have if they have been thinking about it.

Any other takes on it?

Hippyt

Thursday, April 18, 2002 - 10:45 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Lance,I think the Rotu alliance was so sure it never occured to them that they summarily knocked every other player out in the order we all expected them to go.
I was pissed watching it, I think it was so obvious. I expected backlash when I saw it.
I mean,what other take can you get from this? Old Rotu chopped ropes in order that they were going to be voted off. It was incredible.
It's a new game!

Admin

Thursday, April 18, 2002 - 10:50 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I'm just so glad John is gone! Yay! :)

It was a very exciting episode tonight. I was angry watching, but very happy at the end. I love the underdogs.

Do you think CBS intentionally had this particular challenge for the very reasons you're explaining? At first I thought it was a lousy challenge..but now I see the benefits of it.

Lancecrossfire

Thursday, April 18, 2002 - 10:56 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Can't be sure since wasn't there Admin, although MB doesn't have many things happen by accident. They had a challenge with similar possibilities with sling shots last time, however it would have been so easy to say you were lucky to hit anything.

This one shows caclulation if you let it. I think MB knew what he was doing and would hope someone would bite. At least I hope he knew it could happen--LOL

Car54

Thursday, April 18, 2002 - 11:09 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I agree totally Lance. I asked someone on the West Coast to watch and keep a list of who chopped who in what order...
I am so proud of the little church mice for rising up... finally someone DID something to save themselves! MB was trying to stop the Pagonging...and this uprising crossed alliance and tribal lines. A historic move.

Seamonkey

Thursday, April 18, 2002 - 11:37 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I'll look at the order tomorrow.. I watched downstairs but also taped upstairs.

Wasn't Sean the first to go after John? Well.. best to check the tape.

I thought about the slingshots too, Lance.. this made them choose pointedly which rope to chop.

And of course they earned that right by answering the questions.

This was a great show tonight.. see what can happen when the "popular and pretty ones" get booted.. or even the "interesting" ones :) At least this season.. I like it.

Faerygdds

Friday, April 19, 2002 - 02:03 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I think MB finally learned!!! Every year at this EXACT same time (9 players left) we are screaming at our TVs... 7 left is another big one... I think MB finally saw the pattern and that's why he planned this particular IC when he did. I expect we will see something similar with a hint of "luck" added in 2 weeks from now... but that's just a guess. :)

Car54

Friday, April 19, 2002 - 02:47 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Aw Jeff looked pretty happy. I bet it is frustrating when they put the opportunities out there and the player stick with the old patterns.

He looked really jazzed after Tribal Council.

Llkoolaid

Friday, April 19, 2002 - 04:26 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Jeff also made sure to bring up the question to Vee if the immunity challenge made them think, and his follow up questions to Paschal about how he was playing the game and then the question to John if he was lying. If they didn't know what to do before tribal council it sure was made plain to them there. I am sure their minds were made up, this was just like icing on the cake.

Kep421

Friday, April 19, 2002 - 05:28 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I loved the symbolism of the whole IC...the chopping blocks, the big machetes, the act of cutting one's coconuts off..er..down. It could NOT have been more obvious, even if the coconuts had been hung in bunches of two.

You could almost see people's heads on the block and the superior, arrogant grins of the executioners. I have to say, this IC was the best I've ever seen.

I've always loved the IC's that require the tribe members to make actual choices against other tribemembers in order to win. MB came close before when he had people with slingshots breaking pots that belonged to other tribemembers, but that symbolic act of "shooting down" their fellow tribmates wasn't very definitive because it had an element of skill and luck to it. Nor did it have the same symbolic impact that the act of "chopping" does because the tribemembers couldn't always hit the target they wanted to.

While the right to make the decision of who to "chop" was based on individual knowledge, the actual decisions made by the tribemembers in this IC were not left up to skill or chance. The "execution" of their decisions were definitive and to the point. Literally!!!

Awareinva

Friday, April 19, 2002 - 08:13 am EditMoveDeleteIP
LOL Kep!! I got the chopping block symbolism, but didn't think about the cutting the coconuts!! Too funny!

Squaredsc

Friday, April 19, 2002 - 09:24 am EditMoveDeleteIP
lance, to think that i thought those 4 were smarter than that. just goes to show that stupid is as stupid does....and that was stupid. but great challenge, the best one so far and very symbolic.

Nanya

Friday, April 19, 2002 - 09:49 am EditMoveDeleteIP
It was a great IC. The old rotu were so smug. The symbolism seemed to give all of them (except John) a start.
Tammy said that she felt so secure in her tribe, that she didn't care whether she won immunity or not....then the light came on!
I don't think we ever need to be concerned about anyone giving up their immunity other than Pappy & Neleh(if by chance they should ever win).

Seamonkey

Friday, April 19, 2002 - 10:45 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I totally agree, Nanya.. don't think that immunity necklace is going to travel to another neck.

I'm still loving that challenge a day later!

Faerygdds

Friday, April 19, 2002 - 12:19 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I know... everytime I think about it I start giggling. We are ALWAYS screaming at our TVs at this point in the season. We have done it every season... I loved that old Marky figured it out and designed a challenge like this. Boy did they REALLY goof up!

My husband hates Survivor, but when he got home he said I had that old giddiness I had from Season 1 and asked me why... (Does he know me or what?) I told HIM about the IC and he was just cracking up and yelling... IDIOTS!!! (ok... that wasn't what he was yelling, but I don't wanna get in trouble :))

The next big upsurge/twist opp will be in 2 weeks.. I wonder what kind of challenge we will see then???

Urgrace

Friday, April 19, 2002 - 04:40 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
The order they were 'chopped off' is in the superspoiling thread for Tammy.

Gina8642

Friday, April 19, 2002 - 05:53 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
This was a great IC.

There were similar ones in S2 and S3 but they were much less percise. Folks who has a bad arm or poor aim, weren't able to hit their intended target. This one was perfect. You could chop exactly where you wanted to. Didn't get it the first time - chop again....

They (The Rotu4) cetainly did themselves in on this one. I felt so bad for Sean and Vee sitting down there like outcasts. I was really beginning to disbelieve the hype and spoilers about John going at that point.

It was a great challange.

Seamonkey

Saturday, April 20, 2002 - 08:27 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I know ordering has been done, but I rewatched today and the order wasn't what I remembered exactly, but close enough..

Sean chops John(1)
Tammy chops Sean(1)
General chops Sean(2)

==

Vee chops Kathy(1)
Sean chops John(2)
John chops Sean(3) Sean out first
Neleh chops Vee(1)
Zoe chops Vee(2)

==

Paschal chops Vee(3) Vee out second
Tammy chops Kathy(2)
General chops Kathy(3) Kathy out third
Zoe chops Paschal(1)
John chops Neleh(1)

==

Paschal chops Zoe(1)
Zoe chops Paschal(2)
General chops John(3) John out fourth
John chops Paschal(3 Paschal out fifth
Neleh chops Tammy(1)

==

General chops Zoe(2)
Neleh chops General(1)
Tammy chops Zoe(3) Zoe out sixth

==

General chops Neleh(2)
Tammy chops Neleh(3) Neleh out seventh

==

Tammy vs General

Tammy gets question right; General doesn't

Tammy chops General(3) General off eighth


OK.. so

Sean was first and took it to John first.
Sean taken out first by General, Tammy, John, but meanwhile Sean got John second time.

Vee taken out by Neleh, Zoe, Paschal

Kathy taken out by Vee, General, Tammy

John taken out by Sean, Sean, General

Zoe taken out by Paschal, Tammy, General

Neleh taken out by John, Tammy, General

General taken out by Neleh, Tammy, Tammy

Tammy chopped by Neleh


So Vee was mostly out by "friendly" chops

John was finished off by General, with Paschal and Neleh still in.

Tammy and General took out many but they also
had more "chopportunities"

So frankly, what I'd say turned the tide, REALLY
was Neleh being upset that Paschal was taken out the way he was.. that moved her to the other side and brought Pashcal with her.

Kathy, Sean and Vee were already convinced to ally and the challenge just solidified that.

Zoe out before Neleh may have just tilted her
over to the other side too.

Seamonkey

Saturday, April 20, 2002 - 10:09 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
next challenge:

ii

Whoami

Saturday, April 20, 2002 - 10:53 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Was Vee really taken out by "friendly chops?" At the time she was taken out, Neleh and Paschal both probably thought they were in the Rotu alliance, and may have been going along with the pre-determined pecking order (heck, Vee may have been going along with what she thought was the pecking order by taking out Kathy--Vee could have been told Kathy was next after Sean).

It wasn't until Neleh saw her and Paschal were next that she started to wake up!

Seamonkey

Saturday, April 20, 2002 - 11:24 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I'm not sure.. this was such a pivotal point in the season.. and I'm not totally sure there won't be another pivot in a week or two..

Well I think Neleh saw how they treated Paschal.. Neleh herself lasted longer, but I agree that Neleh was the key to the change.

Hootyhoot

Sunday, April 21, 2002 - 05:28 am EditMoveDeleteIP
What I want to know is was Kathy smart enough to get all the questions wrong on purpose, or didn't she know any of the answers? (That seems unlikely ...)

Realtvfan

Sunday, April 21, 2002 - 06:30 am EditMoveDeleteIP
My two cents is to agree with the others above who mentioned the slingshot issue from SII.

The mistakes in Survivor 4 by the "gang of 4" gave us additional evidence that Colby was playing the game of Survivor very well. Colby along with others, but mostly Colby, left Eliz and Roger in the slingshot game so long that Tina commented to Colby "What is wrong with this picture." refering to the fact that all of Colby's original tribe votes that Colby could depend on had been eliminated from the slingshot game before the members of the other tribe (who were destine to be voted out earlier anyways) had been eliminated. Once Amber (who the next to go had been eliminated,) Colby played nice with Eliz and Roger.

The game with the sticks and the pots in SIII failed for three reasons. All of which were fixed brilliantly by MB this time.

IN SIII,
1) It was too late in the game to make a difference
2) random chance as to be able to throw the stick and break the pot, as shown by MamaKim actually breaking her own pot by mistake.
3) Everyone threw at once so people were focused on throwing their own sticks rather than looking at what was being done by others.

Outstanding job by MB to fix all three shortcomings of the game.

Realtvfan

Sunday, April 21, 2002 - 06:33 am EditMoveDeleteIP
As for Kathy getting all the questions wrong this time in Survivor 4. My thoughts is that Kathy too was playing this game brilliantly. She was thinking in advance, just like Will in BBII. Great job AGAIN for Kathy.

Missy2

Sunday, April 21, 2002 - 06:40 am EditMoveDeleteIP
It was perfect timing for this immunity challenge too. The final people...it was genius! I love reality shows, its like watching a psychology experiment!

Seamonkey

Monday, April 22, 2002 - 11:31 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I had to wonder if Kathy really didn't know the answers or was not wanting to win yet another challenge?

Will be interested if they do the "story" challenge again, to see how she fares.. and
if she makes it to the one requiring knowledge of the other players..

When I heard that clip (or read a transcript) where Sean was talking to Kathy and DIDN'T EVEN REMEMBER HER NAME!! it occured to me that Sean might not do too well on the quiz requiring knowledge of other players ..