Archive through May 20, 2002
The ClubHouse: Archives: Thoughts on the Finale & Reunion Show:
Archive through May 20, 2002
Grooch | Monday, May 20, 2002 - 01:57 pm     I feel cheated and disappointed after watching last night's show. And the reason why is that we never got to know Vee. If this is what MB is going to do, then I won't bother watching the next one. |
Karuuna | Monday, May 20, 2002 - 01:59 pm     Car, I see your point. I guess for me, part of it is that Vee herself said she regretted some of her decisions and behavior. So I'm relying on her self-reporting that she did things she later thought were wrong. I'm guessing she knows better what she did, thought, etc, than anyone else. She also said somewhere (was it at TC?) that she often said things in the game in order to get ahead or get along when she didn't really mean them. She said she'd learned to think more before she spoke as a result of reflecting on that. Ultimately, from my own point of view it's the hypocriticalness of her faith. She said God helped her win. It was all God, she said. Well, maybe it's just me, but I'm thinking that one of those commandments was about bearing false witness. So, is she saying God not only endorsed her lying, but rewarded it by helping her win? I'll confess I'm having a little trouble with that concept.... I just don't remember any escape clauses on that commandment. Like, it's okay to lie if you're gonna win a million for doing it. Admittedly, it's just my own little quirky view of things. Forgive me.  |
Car54 | Monday, May 20, 2002 - 02:02 pm     I didn't tape, so can someone help with this? At the point in the game where Kathy and Vee joined forces, was the agreement for the endgame or just for that TC. That is the crux of the issue. From the way they talked at the cleansing, it seemed like they planned to go to the jury together. When Kathy let go, Vee had 2 choices to make. She could do what she did and let Neleh have immunity, or she could have held on, given Kathy immunity and gone up against her. Neleh was pretty determined too and she made that clear, and frankly I can see agreeing to align with someone, not vote for them, etc, but be expected to win an immunity FOR them and then give it to them seems like stretching the concept of loyalty. Kathy "checked her bags". Vee had nothing to do with her downfall, and she said this morning she had every intent on going to the end with her. For anyone to expect Vee to go all out, win that final immunity when she probably knew Neleh would pick her, and then give it away to a person who would probably be bigger competition is a lot to ask. Spear- you are totally right..John said he voted based on the answer to his question. Neleh deflected it and didn't answer head on, and he gave Vee his vote. Sean called on God and we don't think badly of him and he apologized for any mistakes he made and we don't call him sleazy. I think it is good that Vee and Sean (and Rob) apologized for anything they did that hurt anyone. I guess I can't imagine how anyone could play a game where the sole intent is to get every single other person out of the game could do it with no regrets. Maybe that was Neleh's early strategy...make them love you so much they just give up and go home because they can tell you are a good person. It finally took her 24 days to figure out...not gonna happen. I can't see how anyone coulc consider playing this game let alone winning and not being able to recognize you will have to do things you regret. That is the point of the game..not life, just Survivor. Just don't get this one. |
Moondance | Monday, May 20, 2002 - 02:04 pm     WAIT! You mean Hunter didn't win? DAMN! He is beautiful! |
Moondance | Monday, May 20, 2002 - 02:06 pm     >At the point in the game where Kathy and Vee joined forces, was the agreement for the endgame or just for that TC.< The agreement was for the next TWO TCs |
Car54 | Monday, May 20, 2002 - 02:09 pm     But Moonie, we DID find out he and Gina are not an item!!!! Thanks...that is what I thought! |
Karuuna | Monday, May 20, 2002 - 02:14 pm     Merlin -- lol, want me to put a good word in for ya? Car, my opinion was that Vee and Kathy talked about going into the "final two" together when they made the deal. And they talked about it all darn day long the next day, as Neleh attested. It was a given that if either one of them won, they would take the other to the final two. And Vee has told two different stories about that challenge - the first time (last night) she said she could have kept going "for hours"; the next time I heard her refer to that challenge (this morning), she said she didn't think she could beat Neleh. <shrugs shoulders> Again, it's what Vee has said about it herself, and her own regrets that makes me believe that she herself feels that she broke that promise (among others). And Sean was sleazy too. He was just openly sleazy (more Richard Hatch-ish). I guess there's something more abhorrent (to me) about being sneakily sleazy; while claiming you're something else. But to say either one of them was sleazy at times, doesn't mean that I don't find redeeming qualities about both of them, 'cause I do. I just find it more fun sometimes to talk about the other stuff. That's how I'm sleazy.  |
Julieboo | Monday, May 20, 2002 - 02:23 pm     Good points Karuuna. Especially the Sean-sleazy-stuff. |
Car54 | Monday, May 20, 2002 - 02:27 pm     I agree that Vee intended to go to the finals with Kathy. But Kathy let go or slipped. Vee only had 2 choices... hang on when you have been up since 3 am, are hungry, probably have to pee, and you MIGHT win immunity, at which point you must give it to Kathy...to fulfill your promise, knowing Kathy stands a better or equal chance . Technically she did break her promise and I bet she does feel bad about it. But the choices she had to make were pretty extreme. I think if she was really sleazy she would have pretended to fall and accidentally let Neleh win, knowing Neleh would probably pick her. The only self serving thing she did was bargain. She cut a deal with Neleh. Frankly that part was very Richard Hatch-like (I think Rich is the gold standard for Survivor players). I think you would have to go pretty far to find a player in that situation who- if they were still thinking well enough to see the opportunity, would have done any differently. I didn't think Sean was sleazy...I thought he was acting. He put on a show for the TV program he was on. Grooch, I totally agree with you about wishing the editing had allowed us to see more of what game Vee was playing. This is Survivor 4...and most of us have watched since the beginning. Mark Burnett changes the game to stretch the players and make them grow. I wish he would give us a chance to grow too. I had fun playing the "who's out" game every week, but I think there is a lot more to the game and the players that would make for some very fascinating TV. |
Webkitty | Monday, May 20, 2002 - 02:48 pm     I agree with Grooch. I blame this all on MB and his editing. He didn't let us get to know Vee at all. Except that she didn't like drama, and did like God. I wanted Kathy to win because he let us get to know her and understand where she was coming from. I went on the whole roller coaster ride with her. Why did he do this to us. I feel that we, the viewing audience, are his bread and butter, and I feel cheated too. I want to KNOW my Survivor winner, for good or for bad. By the end of S1 I knew who Richard Hatch was, I knew where he was coming from. Its gone downhill every year since then, this year is just ridiculous. Really. As far as the purple stone, they had free will to go another route, and choose not to do it. Someone said above that Pascal would have collapsed in the final IC anyway, I believe that. I can understand how if you were a big Pappy fan it would seem unfair. I would probably be grumbling myself right now if Kathy had picked the purple stone! |
Penpoint | Monday, May 20, 2002 - 02:57 pm     Since all my favorites were voted off fairly early, I didn't really care if it was Vecepia or Neleh who won. It's a game and whoever wins deserves to win as long as they followed the rules of the game. From what we could see, I think both V and Neleh followed the rules. Anyway, I was okay (if not exactly enthusiastic) about V winning. But I really found it disappointing when in response to Rosie asking how she felt, V said how proud she was to be the first African-American to win Survivor and how people of color were backing her. This attitude is so sad because Survivor is not a game in which races are pitted against each other--individuals are pitted against each other, but not racial groups. Except perhaps in Sean's mindset, it never appeared that race was an issue here. So why did V make that an element of her victory? |
Wink | Monday, May 20, 2002 - 02:58 pm     >>>>I agree with Grooch. I blame this all on MB and his editing. He didn't let us get to know Vee at all. Except that she didn't like drama, and did like God<<<< I believe Grooch agrees with me and neglected to say so in her post. |
Grooch | Monday, May 20, 2002 - 03:02 pm     I love you the most, Wink.  |
Lancecrossfire | Monday, May 20, 2002 - 03:04 pm     I was the one who said that I thought Pappy would have the same medical problems if he had stayed in the game. What I didn't make clear was that I wasn't using it as an excuse/crutch for being happy he got the purple stone. I was merely commenting that I thought it would have happened, and taken any chance or skill issue out of deciding who the final 2 would be. I think the issue of not gettting to know what Vee was all about is valid--and I also believe that MB doesn't show us everything so that we get twist and turns, and everthing isn't out there in front of us. He rides a tight line in doing so, as you have pointed out it would make a difference for some if he had shown what she was up to. We wou;d have gotten to know her. That has beena recurring issue from the start though--getting to know the players. IT was said about Zoe all along. I think we tend to root for or against someone we know--if we don't know them, we just wonder who they are. I thought that MB let us know about most of the players in S3--Mama Kim being anm exception. As best as I remember it, Vee did indeed agree to an offer that Kathy made that included them doing actions so both Vee and Kathy would be the final the final two. Vee did what she thought was best for herself. The game allows that. It doesn't mean you aren't slimy for doing it, though. |
Moondance | Monday, May 20, 2002 - 03:12 pm     I agree Penpoint!... Nice to see you! |
Webkitty | Monday, May 20, 2002 - 03:14 pm     Lance, I wasn't happy that Pappy got the purple stone, I was just happy Kathy DIDN'T get it As I was typing what was happening last night, I was saying to myself, please don't let it be Kathy! lOL! I thought his comment this morning about ~how many times in life do you get a purple stone?~ was precious. |
Webkitty | Monday, May 20, 2002 - 03:15 pm     Oops! Sorry Wink!  |
Car54 | Monday, May 20, 2002 - 03:23 pm     Lance, I thought the same thing last night when Paschel got sick...he was probably so weak he would not have been able to do the final challenge anyway. When it happened, I actually thought THAT might be the key to the surprise ending...that the jury would have an even number and then there might have been a jury tie! Hey I like the drama...coulda happened! Oh, and I agree with Wink, too. Penpoint, I agree race is not what Survivor is supposed to be about, but in the past 3 seasons, the minority players have not done the best. I can't fault Vee and Sean for being proud of having done so well. I really can't imagine having watched the game from their perspective. |
Spear | Monday, May 20, 2002 - 03:39 pm     Why would MB cut out footage of Vee talking about strategy or footage showing her doing some scheming? Don't you think it would have made things even more interesting? I guess I don't see him intentionally making things duller just to hide the winner. I don't think there was anything else to show about Vee, just like it now seems that there was nothing else to show about Zoe. |
Car54 | Monday, May 20, 2002 - 03:41 pm     He hid a lot of what was going on with Tina and Colby. |
Moondance | Monday, May 20, 2002 - 03:45 pm     Yes he did and I wish we could have seen her story devoloped more! She had a game plan and we didn't get to see it until the last minute... it would have been great to get to know Vee (other than JC every other word) and then cheer her along. |
Penpoint | Monday, May 20, 2002 - 03:47 pm     Car54, you say the minority players have not done the best. However, in the four seasons of Survivor, the winners have been a gay man, a middle-aged white woman, a young Jewish man, and a black woman. The fact that they were gay, straight, white Jewish, black, male, or female was not the dtermining factor--or even much of a factor--in their winning. So Vecepia's racial statement was out of place--she won because she survived the longest and had the most votes of the jury--not because she represented a racial or ethnic group. Her statement detracted from the validity of her victory and made it appear that she won because of her race. |
Lancecrossfire | Monday, May 20, 2002 - 03:49 pm     Spear, I don't know why MB would do that--just like I don't know why he thought it was worth wasting time for Jeff's entrance with the votes. He must have seen it as entertainment, where we didn't. One other possibility was that Vee didn't say much to the camera to reveal what she was doing. One of the things I remeber about the Tina/Cobly alliance was her comment when asked about it--she said that it was an unspoken alliance. I have a feeling they just kind of aggreed to it without so many words and trusted each other more and more for it as they went alond. It might be hard to build on that, so he just left it alone. MB doesn't miss too many beats though--he's bound to make a couple goofs out of all he has to decide on. I just hope he gives up a little somethig on each person, even if it leads us away. That way we can feel we've gotten to know something about them while we are evaluating the game. |
Julieboo | Monday, May 20, 2002 - 03:51 pm     Very good points Penpoint! I totally agree with your posts. |
Car54 | Monday, May 20, 2002 - 03:59 pm     Spear, I stand corrected. In the the universe of minorities you are absolutely right a diverse group of people have done well. The standard 2 African Americans who have regularly been cast have not made the finals yet before S4. I in no way think that Vee won for any reason other than she plotted, strategized and played the game very well. I think in the game she was in, she absolutely deserved to win. I also think she is the first African American to win, and if that makes her proud it is ok with me. I AM glad that an African American won because now no one can feel that an African American CAN'T win-that myth has been debunked. I feel the same way about the fact that she calls on God a lot and credits her faith. If that is important to her and part of her, it really doesn't bother me. |
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