Archive through May 21, 2002
The ClubHouse: Archives: Pappy was robbed!:
Archive through May 21, 2002
Whit4you | Monday, May 20, 2002 - 07:08 pm     I dont get it - I just dont get it. Pascal had never recieved a single vote - those two both recieved votes - why didnt they draw straws to determine which of them would go rather then put Pascal on the chopping block? I wasn't really rooting for Pascal, wasn't really rooting for any of them, but the bottom line is he'd never recieved a single vote and yet he lost because why? cause neither of the other two were willing to draw straws ? Still dont get that one. Survivor likes changing the rules as they go I guess - but having someone who's never had a vote ever - take that walk makes no sense to me. Nelah agreed to 'never vote for Pappy" but by not working out a unanimous decision she put him on the chopping block - same as a vote to me - to save her own butt. |
Weinermr | Monday, May 20, 2002 - 07:15 pm     This is just what I said earlier Whit, EXCEPT that Paschal could have spoken up for himself in any number of ways, and he didn't. He just rolled over and let himself be a target, let himself be put at risk ... and for that reason I don't think he was robbed. He gave it away. |
Lancecrossfire | Monday, May 20, 2002 - 07:25 pm     Can you imagin this happening early in the game? Let's say there are 8 that walk to TC the very first week. THe vote is 4 and 4. In this situation, all 8 people (including the one to get voted off) would all have to agree within two minutes. I just don't see that happening. Then with the stones, we would have 8 people up for getting booted, when originally, only 2 were considered. What an interesting turn of events that would be for the person voted out if it was a favorite of the group. Something Jeff has said a number of times about Survivor--it's all about choices. And as Neleh said, this one sucks. |
Joan | Monday, May 20, 2002 - 07:42 pm     Neleh had no way to know that the rocks would be used to determine a tie breaker so I wouldn't blame her at all for what happened to Pappy. Personally I hope they keep the rocks because it certainly makes a tie a very very unattractive thing to arrive at! No group will ever reach a consensus unless someone sacrifices him/herself. Frankly I was surprised Pappy didn't do that. Roger did it for Elisabeth. |
Spygirl | Monday, May 20, 2002 - 07:50 pm     Neleh did know what would happen. Jeff explained the complete tie breaker after the vote was tied, but before they had their 2 minutes to 'un-tie' the vote themselves. Anytime during that 2 minutes, she knew that Pappy could go. They all knew that. That is why I agree that the rocks are not an effective tie-breaker. We saw in BB that they would MUCH rather have the control out of their hands rather than make it themselves. Nothing interesting about that. |
Spygirl | Monday, May 20, 2002 - 07:56 pm     And pappy couldn't have sacrificed himself for neleh -- only neleh could have sacrificed herself for pappy. |
Twiggyish | Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 05:31 am     Hiya Whit!! I am sure MB knew none of them would be able to come to an agreement on the winner. He knew they'd have to use the rocks to decide. I liked Pappy in the end. He was a real gentleman. |
Rissa | Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 06:54 am     I keep thinking that if they had been given more than a rushed 2 minutes they just might have booted Neleh on their own. If either Vee or Kathy had made it clear that Pappy was definately at risk of going they could have made a case that it being soooo far into the game that hard decisions had to be made by him. Pappy might have relented and changed his vote to Neleh. Especially if they took his focus off Neleh and put it back on his wife who was counting on him to win and his own (REAL) daughters. Kathy could have said that she was willing to take the risk or a vote but Neleh could have been guilted into not risking Pappy. I think by that point (39 days) their ability to be totally rational, their defenses were down. I wish MB would have given them time for the implications to sink in and then given them a lot longer to argue it out. What does it matter? It's edited anyway, not like the viewers would have had to watch the whole time. And the jury should have been removed and just heard the rational afterwards for whatever decision they made. I was not rooting for Pappy to win anyway but it could have changed the whole end to the game. Pappy would definately have been first down on the endurance challenge and Kathy would most likely have won the million. |
Julieboo | Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 07:37 am     Good point Rissa. 2 rushed minutes is not enough time to figure things out. |
Joan | Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 02:38 pm     Rissa, Neleh still would have had to agree to boot herself because it had to be unanimous. Spygirl, did Jeff say they couldn't decide on Pappy? I know he wasn't nominated but I am wondering if they all could have decided on him anyhow. |
Webkitty | Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 03:02 pm     The four of them had to come to a unanimous agreement to vote out either Kathy or Neleh. If Neleh had agreed to be voted out, they wouldn't have had to pick rocks and Pappy would have stayed. Same thing for Kathy. All four of them seemed to be relieved that there was an alternate way, and especially relieved that it was left up to chance. IMO, all four of them were physically and mentally drained at this end point of the game. They were in front of the jury, and felt uncomfortable taking about this, no matter what the time limit. Pappy would not have been able to make it through that next rigorous day that started at 3:00 AM much less stand on a pole. He seems to have taken this in stride: how many times in your life do you get a purple rock? To me, the best, and most poignant line that came out of this season  |
Micknrc | Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 03:03 pm     Joan- Are we sure? My take on 'unanimous' was that everyone except the bootee would have to agree. Otherwise it would NEVER work--who would agree to be booted rather than let the others take a chance on going? I'm with Lance up to a point.... Can you imagine this happening earlier in the game? say 6 or 8 people--10 post merge (an even merge tribe?) I think it would be WAY more dramatic and exciting and less anticlimactic than what we saw with Pappy. If I were one of 6, 8, or 10, I would be a lot less willing to take a chance on the Purple Rock. So, I would be a lot more amenable to changing my vote. ESPECIALLY as it would be more buried in the flurry of activity to save the collective butt from the Purple Rock. EVEN if I had a 'pact' with someone special, it would be more understandable to give way in the face of an overwhelming group push to 'settle this before it's settled for us'. So I think that EMB's logic was sound (although I still think there are better ways of settling ties). I just think he got unlucky in that it took till the last epi to come into play. It would have been way more dramatic earlier on, and in the end, might have given the final four in that position a bit more to think about. Either way, if he keeps that rule for next time, the Survivors will now know what to expect---they'll have been able to think about "Would I rather stubbornly stick to a vote (if others start to waver)or take a chance on getting the Purple Rock?" |
Rissa | Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 03:22 pm     It's possible Neleh would have agreed to boot herself. My reasoning is that Vee and Kathy could have really layed it on thick about it not being fair for Pappy to get booted. Kathy being willing to risk it since it wasn't her and Pappy that were so close but was Neleh willing? As for Pappy? "Paschel!! You get past this vote and you have a major shot at the final two. You think your wife would price out a one month friendship for a million bucks? Would she write that cheque? It's time to finish up this game and you have to make a decision. You gonna play or quit right here, right now. Cause keeping Neleh means that whether or not you luck out with the stones... you have effectively given up on this game, because you think your wife would agree that your little friendship was worth the both of you losing a million dollars. A friendship so strong that Neleh is sitting there more than willing to let you take a fall on HER behalf." And the more Neleh protested, the more it would look like she was stabbing Pappy in the back or at least was willing to. I *think* it could have been done but they would have had to have a lot longer to really argue it out and wear each other down plus the jury could not be present. They would be reluctant to get down and dirty with the manipulations if they knew the jury was listening to every word. |
Sunshinemiss | Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 03:43 pm     I think they should have been informed of the tie-breaking procedure at the beginning of the game. What is the point to keeping it secret? It is as effective, if not more so, when people know what the consequences will be ahead of time, and can make decisions accordingly. Don't care for it, especially the crunch time aspect of it. Takes a lot of the personal strategy and responsibility out of it, IMO. Pappy got robbed. Whether or not he could have continued is irrelevant, he should have had the opportunity. He proved himself to be a survivor, and may have been able to eke that last ounce of energy. I will be very curious to see if they carry this new rule over to S-5. |
Lancecrossfire | Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 03:46 pm     I wonder if the players were informed, but we wouldn't be until it was needed? (I guess we have no way of knowing that unless it comes up in an interview with one of them) |
Pagal | Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 04:06 pm     I don't think they were informed because, when they were chatting before the vote, Kathy said that if Vee aligned with her that Kathy would take the questions in the event of a tie and at that point Jeff said that they (the players) didn't know the specifics yet of how a tiebreaker would be played out. |
Joan | Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 05:08 pm     I took unanimous to mean unanimous otherwise Vee and Neleh shouldn't have any input. What I really didn't like about that TC is that Jeff allowed Kathy and Vee to form an alliance and discuss their vote right there at TC. IMO once you are at TC, it is too late and they should not have been allowed to talk about it. Kathy would have voted Pappy, Vee would have voted Neleh and Vee would have gone home 2 to 1 to 1. |
Gina8642 | Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 05:16 pm     Joan, I think the producers of the show would LOVE it if the players made more alliances at Tribal Council. That is where they want all the drama to happen. It is rare that it does, and most know long before they get there who is going that night. That time was one of the few where there really wasn't any time to talk prior to the meeting. The vote was basically immediatly after the challange (fallen comrades questioning) ended. Why should Vee be disadvantaged because that immunity challange was followed directly by the vote? |
Lancecrossfire | Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 05:24 pm     Joan, it would have been Kathy either going home (3-0)or at best in a tie (Kathy and either P or N), as Vee had immunity. I'm guessing that MB will evaluate this new twist he threew in, as it is very drastic (kind of like having Survivor in Africa instead of the beach). I think he will either really like it (it creates potetial turmoil and intesnsity, beacuse very few will roll over and leave), yet it also creates a situation where in just about every case, it will come down to chance. While there may be suspense it that for a few moments, it does throw everyone into the mix to go that wasn't in it before. Does he really want that. Interesting experiement MB. |
Llkoolaid | Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 05:40 pm     I am confused, did they have to break the tie or did they all have to agree. Does anyone know for sure? |
Lancecrossfire | Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 05:44 pm     Kool, they first got two minutes to try and come to a "unanimous decision" (Jeff's words, but he didn't define for sure), and if they could not, then it would be decided by draw of stones. (and all but immune person would be on the block) |
Seamonkey | Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 05:45 pm     Maybe they all should have agreed to rush Jeff and push him into the fire along with his stones. |
Grooch | Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 05:48 pm     LOL! Good one, Seamonkey. |
Lancecrossfire | Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 05:55 pm     Or get that ladle things Jeff fills with water to put out the person's tourch, douse him with it, then all at once say "the tribe has spoken" A wet Probst with a ladle on his head--hehe |
Heyteach | Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 08:34 pm     Lance, I like that idea! The idea of the stones is okay, but should apply only to the two people involved in the tie. It isn't fair that Paschal got the boot when he had never been voted against. (Life isn't fair, yeh,yeh...I know...) |
|