Are vegetarians right?

The ClubHouse: Archives: Are vegetarians right?

Ocean_Islands

Friday, February 23, 2001 - 07:43 pm Click here to edit this post

Do chickens have feelings? Should we just live and let live?

Gail

Friday, February 23, 2001 - 07:45 pm Click here to edit this post

I'll get back to you after I finish eating my steak dinner. :)

Mishamisha

Friday, February 23, 2001 - 07:53 pm Click here to edit this post

I don't like Kimmi very much, but on the morning show she said she just thought it was proper to make sure that the chickens had food, water and shelter. That doesn't seem too wild of an idea. Also, if she really was against the eating of them, why did she make an effort on the challenge, and not let the chickens loose when they did win?! I definitely think she's a whiner, though, and made some pretty dumb comments like "what kind of people are you?" or something, in reference to the killing of the pig.

Ocean_Islands

Friday, February 23, 2001 - 07:54 pm Click here to edit this post

Well they definitely weren't Jewish.

Guruchaz

Friday, February 23, 2001 - 09:06 pm Click here to edit this post

I have no problem with vegetarians. Announce it to those you meet once or twice to make sure they understand and then keep the comments to one's self.

Kimmi had to announce it over and over and then make a big issue out of every move her group made.

Max

Friday, February 23, 2001 - 09:17 pm Click here to edit this post

I agree with Guru.

Hey! What's that sound!!! Is hell freezing over?

Seamonkey

Friday, February 23, 2001 - 11:29 pm Click here to edit this post

Me too.. i have vegetarian and vegan friends and
just want to know so we can find places to eat that give us all options. But no sermons are
wanted or needed.

I wonder if Kimmi wears leather?

Ocean_Islands

Saturday, February 24, 2001 - 11:41 am Click here to edit this post

Why, would that turn you on?

Lancecrossfire

Saturday, February 24, 2001 - 12:47 pm Click here to edit this post

Vegetarians are right---for them. And meat eaters are right--for them.

Ocean_Islands

Saturday, February 24, 2001 - 03:01 pm Click here to edit this post

Lol.

I personally think that all animals (mammals and birds anyway) have feelings. The fact that we kill them for food is a fact of existence which to some could seem heartbreaking.

Karuuna

Saturday, February 24, 2001 - 05:10 pm Click here to edit this post

Well, I'm a vegetarian, for the most part. Even tho the producers claim to have given sensitivity and a voice to vegetarians by choosing Kimmi for the show, I think Kimmie was not the best qualified representative, at least compared to most of the veggie-folk that I know. Someone more serious, and less sentimental, about their ethics would have been better prepared for the Australian outback by studying the indigenous plant life and being able to provide alternatives to eat (IMHO). In that way they would have been extremely useful and shown some understanding to the basic need to eat.

I try very hard not to impose my beliefs/practices on anyone else. However I do insist that they respect them. I can't tell you how often people try to coax you into eating meat, much like some drinkers try to coax you into drinking with them, and are insulted when you don't. I don't drink either, so I've experienced that as well. (Am I boring, or what?! ) And just today I attended a day-long conference where there was not a single vegetarian option at the provided lunch, besides saltines and fruit. I coped without complaining, but later casually mentioned to the planners that since one of the topics we discussed was embracing diversity that here was a little way they could practice that!

On the other hand, I think it's wise to be humble about your practices, whatever they are. It's virtually impossible to be a total vegetarian, no matter how diligent you are, as I pointed out to some particularly pious veggie friends of mine. They sat munching their MacDonald fries, proud as punch that they obstained from any of the meaty items on the menu and completely oblivious to the fact that while MacDonalds has switched to an all vegetable cooking oil, they impregnate the fries with something they call "natural flavor" -- which is derived from beef. Go figure.

I doubt that I could ever be so good at anything, that I have the right to preach to anyone else on how to live. At the same time I strongly believe in an Buddhist principle called "ahimsa" which means to do as little harm and to cause as little suffering as possible. Personally, I used to do marketing consulting for both the American Lamb Council and the Beef Industry Council and I've toured some local butchering operations. These are not, by any stretch of the imagination, industries that practice ahimsa. I'd have less problems with eating meat, if we could do it in a more respectful and less brutal way.

Moondance

Saturday, February 24, 2001 - 05:19 pm Click here to edit this post

Thank you Karuuna
I find myself lazy sometimes and I don't respond to a topic because it would take to long to explain along with the reasoning etc... but you have summed it up so nicely and once again I am saved by another poster that is a wonderful writer!

These are my sentiments also.

I am a proud vegetarian and I do not wear leather:)

Noslonna

Saturday, February 24, 2001 - 08:15 pm Click here to edit this post

Chickens do not have feelings. Their eyes are bigger than their brain for goodness sakes.

When I was a child the chickens scared me. They seemed to live only to run after me and peck my bottom. I am sorry if I do not have an affinity to chickens.

Last time I felt emotional about a chicken, my dad chopped the head off one and I freaked when the headless body jumped off the stump and chased me around! I refused to eat chicken that night and I still can't think about it if chicken is on the menu.

Max

Saturday, February 24, 2001 - 09:07 pm Click here to edit this post

We had chickens when I was around 4 years old. They were a breed called "banti" (not sure of the spelling). They were small and the roosters were viscious! They used to chase me all over the yard pecking at my heels. Scared the heck outta me! The hens would climb in the woodpile and find places to lay their eggs. We had to go out there and hunt to find the eggs, usually getting pecked in the process.

Every once in a while the darned things would get out of the yard and start running down the street (we lived in a small, rural town, but not all the way in the country) and the neighbors would call to let us know. Then my mom and us kids would have to go chasing after them trying to round them up and get them back in the yard. I was SO happy when we finally got rid of those little buggers!

Anyway, ever since that time, I have had no sympathetic feelings for chickens.

Misslibra

Saturday, February 24, 2001 - 10:12 pm Click here to edit this post

Nos said> Last time I felt emotional about a chicken, my dad chopped the head off one and I freaked when the headless body jumped off the stump and chased me around! I refused to eat chicken that night and I still can't think about it if chicken is on the menu.

Your kidding the chicken was actually chasing you around without a head !? That would of scared the shit out of me ! Come on Nos you just imagine that didn't you ? LMAO !! I can't help but to laugh because I picturing the visual right now. Poor Nos... poor chicken too !

Riviere

Sunday, February 25, 2001 - 02:26 am Click here to edit this post

Hey, you guys have a lot in common with my Mom! At age 5 her dad killed a chicken and the corpse flapped at her, to this day she is terrified of all birds. She does eat chicken, but having my Amazon parrot loose in the house when she visits is a sure way to make her visit brief.. I like those feisty lil banty roosters (bantam as they're known) but we mostly had Rhode Island Reds for eggs, they're good layers and I admit it pains me seeing the S2 idiots prefer a bonepile & fat belly for a couple weeks than steady protein diet with eggs. There's never a reason to treat an animal badly or with cruelty. Not even if you are raising it for food. They need food & water & shelter same as any of us so called superiors.
They do say man's inhumanity to man is surpassed only by his inhumanity to animals. Although Kimmi had her app. sent to Survivor in error when she needed Temptation Island, she had compassion and tried to tend the chickens knowing their days were numbered whether she dined or not. And no, chickens ain't dumb, haven't you seen the famous hens who play a tune on a lil piano to get seeds to drop down a chute? Now a domestic turkey, that is a dumbed down bird, not to be confused with the wild turkeys Ben Franklin wanted as America's national symbol instead of the bald eagle.. ;)

Moondance

Sunday, February 25, 2001 - 10:02 am Click here to edit this post

Go Riviere!!!

I find it interesting that some find animals emotionless or brainless if they fear or don't like them... reminds me of the way some people treat people too:)

Karuuna

Sunday, February 25, 2001 - 12:32 pm Click here to edit this post

Hey, Moondance! Thanks for the kind words!

Chickens have feelings of course. Even the most primitive of life forms perceive pain in some way -- some have more sophisticated neural systems than others. When a chicken gets it head cut off, the interruption of the spinal cord triggers autonomic responses for flight in the muscles of the body - the reflexive action of the body is to flee or defend itself, as a reaction to extreme pain. When you jerk your hand away from a hot item, it's all mediated by the spinal cord. The thought "da** that was hot!" comes a fraction of a second after you've moved your hand.

So do chickens feel pain? Sure, they have feelings. The next question is, do they have emotions? Do they think "da** that hurt!"? Beats me. But it makes sense to me not to cause pain if its unnecessary.

Now, time to slaughter the tofu. And believe me, when I cook anything, it does resemble a slaughter!

Max

Sunday, February 25, 2001 - 04:10 pm Click here to edit this post

Just to clarify a little. I don't know if chickens have emotions or not. Yes, I know they feel physical pain and I know they aren't as dumb as domestic turkeys and sheep. Just 'cause I don't like them doesn't mean I think they are wooden little things with no nerve endings.

In college, I trained rats in Skinner boxes and mazes for psychology classes. The school switched to training chickens for pecking responses because too many students got emotionally attached to their rats and wanted to keep them as pets. Then, their landlords would get upset at them having the rats for pets and the kids would let them loose on campus. You'd be climbing the stairs and a bush would move. Look over and you'd see 2 or 3 big white lab rats picking berries for lunch! No one was ever reported to want to adopt a chicken after training it.

Fair? No, but true. Furry is more appealing to most than feathers, I guess, and white rats are much less messy than chickens.

I don't condone cruelty to any animal and would like to think that the chickens I consume had been dispatched as humanely as possible. I realize, though, that's not necessarily the case.