Archive through July 07, 2003
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TV ClubHouse: Archive: Road Rules - South Pacific (ARCHIVES): Archive through July 07, 2003

Tishala

Monday, July 07, 2003 - 08:13 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I see plenty of people criticizing the homophobia, but I also see people who are not willing to call the "cornbread" comment racist, even though Abe admittd it was.

The unfortunate, or fortunate, part of discussions about hot button issues like race is that one doesn't necessarily get to talk to Martin Luther King Jr about them; sometimes, one has to talk to people like Donnell. And one can learn just as much, if one listens, from a Donnell as one can from a Dr. King.

Again, if people find self-scarification fine, that's great. But the analogies don't hold up: tattoo parlors, which I'm sure there are less of than there are, for example, here in L.A., have people who do the tats on others--they don't do it to themselves. That doesn't even happen in prisons. And in Native American cultures or African cultures, scarification rituals are part of the culture and are done by tribal leaders, not something one does to one's self as a way of expressing latent violence. So I didn't cast "dispersions" (do you mean "aspersions"?) on the ritual itself, but I did question the balance of someone who cuts himself.

Perhaps Donnell has "homosexual tendencies," but I don't know him well enough to say. Perhaps you do. I do know that someone who admists he made racist comments in an effort to hurt someone else has what might generously be called "racist tendencies."

Finally, regarding University of Montana-Western: I didn't make the rankings for universitites; USNews and the Chronicle of Higher Education did. Some state schools have a long tradition of excellence in its university systems--California and New York are two--but others don't. I didn't call them "bad"--let's get that clear, and let's try not to pretend I said something I didn't--but I won't back off the truth, which is that Montana-Western, the only school I discussed, is ranked very low nationally.

Puttergirl

Monday, July 07, 2003 - 08:39 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Squaredsc, here is how the MTV website described it. But, what they leave out was that right before the cornbread comment, Dave was trying to calm things down and asked them "What should we have for lunch?". Otherwise, it went like this:

"Donell has no concept of "taking it too far," so he keeps pushing and pushing until Abe cracks. Abe lets it slip that he thinks cornbread is being served for lunch and Donell is not pleased that he "went there." Abe quickly apologizes knowing he took their argument to another level with that kind of remark. But he also admonishes Donell for talking down to him and treating him like he's some "stupid redneck" from Montana."

Alisons

Monday, July 07, 2003 - 09:20 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Gina wrote:

"As far as the Abe self-mutilation thing. It is extrodinarily close minded to cast dispersions on him for it. It is similar to tatooing, IMO. If you'd ever been to Montana you'd know that tatoo parlors arn't on every corner. He did what he could. Also, it is typical of some native american tribes of that area to self-mutilate."

That is so true! As a Native American, I rolled my eyes over comments that this somehow made you less than sane. Of course, it is often the first person to cry "racist" who ends up offending everyone else! I am also puzzled as to why people think cornbread is more a reference to black people than to Native Americans, as we were the first ones to grow and use corn. The only time I have ever heard anyone refer to "cornbread" or "corny" it has been more as a synonym to "dorky" than to anything else. But hey, if you only have one horse to ride, I guess that is how you are going to arrive!

Gina8642

Monday, July 07, 2003 - 09:21 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Squaredsc

I missed the comment when watching the show, so I don't even know what was said. Maybe someone can post it? All I saw was Donnel ragging and ragging and ragging on Abe. Abe - like a complete idiot didn't walk away and was actually letting Donnell get under his skin. Next thing I saw was Abe attacking Donnel. It wasn't one of these little slaps we've seen before on these shows. He had Donnel in a head lock and was wailing on him. Very violent. Donnel got some shots in as defense, but clearly Abe was the agressor and really tried to hurt Donnel.

Tishala

I'm sorry you feel the need to jump down everyone's throat here. Especially my own. I was trying to defend Montana and some of the traditions of people in the area. It was not a personal attack. You choose to attack me. If you read this board much, you will see that there is very little of this sort of attack here, that is why I post here so much. People generally try to go out of their way here to see another person's point of view - you appear to do the opposite - deliberately misinterprete them so you can argue some more. Try to realize that these posts and discussions aren't meant to be personal. There are all sorts of places out there where you can yell at your fellow posters if you like that sort of thing. Can we keep it off these boards? Personally, I don't like putting down other poeople. I'd like to try to discuss the issues without attacking people (or entire states), can you try the same thing? Please?

I prefer not to judge other people and it is the lack of that judging on these boards that I appreciate. Thanks to all who do not!!!!!

I suppose race is a hot button issue. None of my comments even refered to it except my perception of what is really bugging Donnel. Donnel, IMO and IMO only, exhibits many 'Queen' like mannerisms. I fully admit I could be completely wrong - but I've seen it before. I base this perception on personal experience. I had a friend in middle shcool - he had some of the 'queen' manerisms that Donnel has. I was really too young to quite 'get' what it might havce meant then. Many of the other kids teased him (ie - the homophobia thing). Anyway, he was my friend and I stuck by him. I could care less. Frankly, his 'high drama' act was usually alot of fun. Unlike Donnel, he didn't pick on people either. Later in high school we drifted apart after his family moved away. Years later I ran into him at the movies, except 'he' was dressed up as a 'she'. I called him by his male name (Eric) and he pretended not to understands me and said it was 'Erica'. 'He' was my friend and I could care less how he was dressed, I just wanted to know how he was doing. He appeared to be uncomfortable being 'recognized'. Again, my 'gaydar' has been wrong before, so I could be wrong, but IMO I think this is what is going on Donnel. IMO, it is easier for him to complain about race because that racism is an acceptable complaint to hold against another person. (and rightfully so.)

Anyway - If you jump all over my post again, I'll know you aren't interested in reasonable discussion - Just interested in putting people down. I'll do my best to stop posting after that - 'cause I'd like to avoid that sort of thing here. Good Luck Everybody!

Squaredsc

Monday, July 07, 2003 - 09:21 am EditMoveDeleteIP
shukran puttergirl.

Squaredsc

Monday, July 07, 2003 - 09:25 am EditMoveDeleteIP
well alisons since the cornbread comment was made to donnell i would assume it was a slur against black people such as making a chicken or watermelon comment.

Gina8642

Monday, July 07, 2003 - 09:29 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Thanks for backing me up on the Native American thing Alison. BTW - I've heard cornbread referred to all three ways. Ie - meaning Corny, meaning something to do with Nat. Am.s, and meaning something to do with African Am.s. Maybe the need a little reference guide to go along with the show so we'll know what each comment means? LOL

Tishala

Monday, July 07, 2003 - 09:30 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Gnia, I'm sorry if you feel I'm attacking you. I am merely stating my opinion. I'm sorry you don't like it, but I post here a lot too, and I have never had anyone say I attacked them. In fact, my post only mentioned "you" when it asked a question about "dispersions", so I never "put you down" at all, nor do I see anything you said that could be construed as "misinterpreting." I merely defended what I believe, which is what these threads are about. If you don't like my posts, I respect that and I hope you will avoid reading them.

Instead, I am atacked for discussing the factual rankings of Montana-Western and for my correct assertions about scarification in tribal rituals.

Mpls

Monday, July 07, 2003 - 09:47 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I've been on many different web sites and have read many arguments about whether the word "cornbread" is a racist term?

Only an idiot would think the word in and of itself has anything to do with race. However, anyone with any iota of sense must know that in a certain CONTEXT the word can take on the meaning of a racial slur.

I'm African-American. I went to college in a rural all white area. Numerous times at bars I had to endure walking past tables where a loud voice would say.., "damn I feel like some watermelon" or "hey, we don't serve fried chicken in here".

Watermelon and fried chicken in and of themselves are not racist words. But clearly the context they were used at me were bringing in the aspect of race and stereotypes.

So please people, cut out the false naivety. Abe knew he was spewing forth something racial. He later admitted it. There is no need to act like it was just some innocent word.

Sweetbabygirl

Monday, July 07, 2003 - 10:14 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Alisons, TRUST ME that when Abe made the 'cornbread' comment, it had absofrickinlutely NOTHING to do with Native American maize, being corny, whatever....he made the comment to piss off Donnell, an African-American, in retaliation for Donnell pushing his buttons. And before I get branded as 'Pro-Donnell', let me make clear that his stock with me dropped when I read about his antics on The Smoking Gun....furthermore, I have nothing but contempt for any man or woman who feel like they have to bully others to make themselves look good.

Bottom line, Abe should have just walked away from Donnell's bullying....the fact that he CHOSE to come back and open up a can of whup ass makes him come off as wrong, and because of that he will likely be sent home.

Tishala

Monday, July 07, 2003 - 10:17 am EditMoveDeleteIP
*applauds SBG and mpls*

Monkeyboy

Monday, July 07, 2003 - 10:29 am EditMoveDeleteIP
It's just a show! They both need to go home.

Tishala

Monday, July 07, 2003 - 10:32 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Oh Monkey...so is BB and I discuss THAT to death too! And I already know that all of them need to go home and it hasn't evn started!

Heehee

Squaredsc

Monday, July 07, 2003 - 10:33 am EditMoveDeleteIP
yay mb is back. and ya think?

Seamonkey

Monday, July 07, 2003 - 10:52 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Wow, I just discovered "shukran" this morning watching Ground Force on BBC-A and here I see Squared using it here.. woohoo.

===

OK, as far as the ratings of various universities, colleges, etc. I have a firm belief that it is more up to the student to GET (not just take) the education and that often that matters more than the ranking of the institution.

I went to and graduated from Cal-Berkeley (in the days when we really considered it the ONLY UC.. in fact our decals and such simply said "University of California" and it was understood that it didn't mean UCLA or Santa Barbara, etc. Things have changed in the interim..

Anyway I attended for a year and ended up doing my second year at our local community college and I must say, due to my own motivations, some fortunate choices of instructors, I got SO much more out of that year. However I did return (after getting married and working and savig money) to Berkeley and graduated and relished everything about the campus and some great profs in my upper division classes and oh all the bookstores and people and events and such.

But I'd say a motivated and intellectually curious person can still emerge as well educated, no matter what the school ranking.

(Can't speak for what Abe is getting there)


(CNN on in the background here.. say it ain't true, Kobe :( I've had such admiration for him and hope he is cleared (if innocent).)

Monkeyboy

Monday, July 07, 2003 - 11:13 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Well bosta, Tish! :)

Pantageas

Monday, July 07, 2003 - 12:00 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Hi Tishala. Just stopped back in from the holidays to see where the thread was going. Glad to see that other people saw things the way I did.

Here's enough tidbit for folks to chew on:

Making a crack to a homophobe about being gay is not the same thing as making a racist comment to someone of anothe race. Discuss.

Max

Monday, July 07, 2003 - 01:08 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Let's not and say that we did.

Mpls

Monday, July 07, 2003 - 01:10 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Being gay crosses racial barriers. So as I see it, when there is gay bashing it is different as you are attacking a racialy diverse orientation of people based on sexual preference.

On the other hand, when a particular race is attacked, it is usually made with the intent that the race being attacked is LOWER than the race of the attacker. That is the entire purpose of the put down. For that person to say that you who I am talking to is not even worthy nor human, therefore I am showing my disdain by pointing out the funny little things we laugh about your entire race. You know, like how we laugh at the monkey's eating banana's in the zoo?

Obviously, to attack someone for sexual orientation or for race purposes is vile. I see them as different, yet similar.

Seamonkey

Monday, July 07, 2003 - 01:37 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I think most homophobic attacks imply that the gay/lesbian person is LOWER and often evil and subhuman.

And, as in many cases, it is being made as an accusation that this person is gay and is denying or lying..

What is worse? Very individual and what is worse is what hurts another person.

The G/L/B/T community is way behind other groups (racial, gender) in obtaining equal rights and privileges and it is still considered more "righteous" in all too many cases to keep down/attack/shun the non-straight people.

Heck people may laugh at the monkeys in the zoo but usually they aren't all outraged if said monkeys touch or hug or whatever in public.. they aren't told it is ok for them to be a monkey but I don't want to hear about it or see it.. so I think homophobia is directed at those seen as LOWER than also.

But of course each individual case stands alone.

Pantageas

Monday, July 07, 2003 - 03:56 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Actually Sea, I think that making a homophobic comment to a gay person is EXACTLY the same as a racist comment. But Donell wasn't belittling a gay person - he was tweaking Abe's homophobic buttons.

I think that Donell's gay teasing(it wasn't denigrating gays as much as it was jabbing Abe about his feelings)had fewer teeth than Abe's comment. Abe tossed the gay "cloak" back at Donell too, remember - it just didn't bother him the way it bothered Abe. And as lame a racial jibe as "cornbread" was, it was still that.

The double standard I see with the majority here is that Abe seems allowed to make ignorant comments because he has been sheltered and knows-no-better. Donell shouldn't issue biting/saracastic replies to any of those comments/individual because hurting the feelings of said individual is equivalent to...say...running up to them to issue a beat-down. Or as some say, even WORSE!

Anyhoo, it looks like Abe goes and Donell stays - which is how it should be...for now.

Theowl

Monday, July 07, 2003 - 04:38 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Does anyone have any comments about Donell calling Abe his "B)tch"??

Tishala

Monday, July 07, 2003 - 04:45 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
It's incredibly misogynist.

Grooch

Monday, July 07, 2003 - 04:48 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Pantageas, I think a reason that a lot of people are defending Abe is because of the editing.

RR is portaying Abe as the misunderstood one who is shunned from the group except for Christina who is going out of her way to be nice to him. They keep showing confessionals of Abe saying how lonely, misunderstood, etc, etc he feels. That they only make an effort towards him when it is mission time.

Meanwhile, they keep showing Donnell saying things like, I like to push people's buttons, he's my ••••• on this trip, etc. They didn't even bother to show a Donnell confessional saying how he felt at the moment when Abe made that comment to him, etc.

And why was Abe being shunned from the rest of teh cast for the most part? Why did no one want to sit in the front with him while he is driving? Why does Donnell want to push his buttons?

Christina even told Abe that he is lucky they are not allowed to hit each other because she wanted to hit him. What has Abe been saying and doing to make people act this way? RR has not let us know that.

Ever since I read that Colin from Battle of The Sexes wrote that he lost all respect for the producers when John Murray spent a whole day negotiating with two 30 year old men about spitting on each other, I have to agree with Colin. (Even though I don't like him.) I have no faith that what we saw is the way it happened, in the sense of riling up my emotions for one against the other.

I still am not crazy for either of them, but I guess it is easier to defend Abe because I feel bad that he lost a great opportunity to change himself for the better. And what I know about Donnell is that he beat up his girlfriend when he got back home.

They are both wrong. But Abe should have been a man and walked away from the situation and clear his head. He could have easily refused to partake anymore with the show until a solution was worked out between him and Donnell.

Pantageas

Monday, July 07, 2003 - 05:48 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
TheOwl, The "b-tch" comment is born of ignorance. It comes from prison terminology where the "tough" inmate makes a lesser one serve as his "woman". You have to wonder about any phrases brought into contemporary jargon from incarcerated felons. While I think its stupid and juvenile, it's what the "kids" say nowadays to be cool. Remember, Abe said the same thing to Christina when she said maybe all the girls should dye their hair blond.

Grooch, I also wish they'd edited things differently. What would people's opinion of Abe had been if they'd shown more of his alienating comments? If people cut Abe slack because of the things Donell was shown to say, would they give Donell credit if someof the things said to him by Abe were shown...?

P.S. - The both act like children, and won't miss either of them once they're gone...