Archive through July 07, 2003
TV ClubHouse: Archive: Road Rules - South Pacific (ARCHIVES):
Archive through July 07, 2003
Puttergirl | Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 02:38 pm     I did a Yahoo search for Abram and came up with this. THIS PROVES IT!!! (By the way, if you've never done a search using your own name, do so. You may not believe what you come up with. I have alot of things on the net about me that I didn't know were there!!!!) http://www.umwestern.edu/shares/senate_share/bios.htm |
Puttergirl | Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 02:45 pm     He was also on the Dean's List: http://www.umwestern.edu/news/index.htm#springdeans It required a 3.3 average |
Alisons | Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 03:14 pm     Hmmm, if it is a black/white issue, I guess I am out in the cold since I am a Native American! Seriously though, if it were up to me I would either let both stay or send both home. Preferably send both home! |
Tishala | Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 03:27 pm     Yes, I'm sure life is very competitive for Abe with what seems like a very diverse population, on a secondary campus of a non-competitive state university system. Kudos to him. Just as a note--and this was really hard to find, unlike at most universities, Montana Western has only 886 full-time students, of which 3 are "Hispanic" and 3 are Alaskan Native < link>. |
Max | Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 03:50 pm     Tishala, you said you thought the incident started with a racial comment. I guess that all depends on when you consider the whole mess to have actually started. In my opinion, it started with Donnell continually making snide comments to Abe about possible homosexual tendancies (as they were learning the dance moves). Abe kept saying over and over that he was okay with what they were doing, but Donnell just kept picking. That's where I see the percolation of Abe's frustration and anger originating. Abe's racially-centered remark to Donnell came MUCH later after Donnell had continued picking on him and making all kinds of comments about homosexuality, where Abe is from, and other personal attacks disguised (thinly) as "jokes." I don't see this as a racially motivated incident at all. I do see it as two ignorant, immature people with clashing personalities pushing things beyond the limit and one of them breaking down and turning physical. As for Abe scarring himself, he compared it to getting tattoos or piercings, he just felt doing it himself to mark important passages in his life was more meaningful. Yes, I find it odd. It's not something generally accepted as "normal" in our culture. However, there are lots of cultures where what he has done is very tame. Just because it's out of our norm doesn't mean it's twisted. If he did it (as others mentioned) to act out control issues or in a self-destructive way, then it would indicate a psychological problem. However, the way he's done it is really not that different than getting your tongue or belly button pierced followed by seven holes in your ears and assorted piercings in other locations. And THAT is behavior you see a LOT of these days. I'm not sure why you have it so in for Abe, but that's your perogative. I just see that both he and Donnell have some issues to overcome (and I say that without regard to what the Smoking Gun has uncovered). |
Tishala | Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 04:08 pm     I really don't wanna discuss this to death, but I will. Pantageas seems to have left the convo and only SBG and I think Abe is culpable. "Abe's racially-centered remark to Donnell came MUCH later" It is kind to call it "racially-centered," but that is just a PC way of saying racist. Abe admitted it, and no amount of prevarication can change that. Yes, Donnell made gay jokes, and I think they are terrible too; but it was only after Abe made his "cornbread" comment, which he admitted was racist, that whatshisname had to take Abe away and EVEN THEN, he refused to stay away because his little racist remark didn't annoy Donnell the way he wanted it to. "If he did it (as others mentioned) to act out control issues or in a self-destructive way, then it would indicate a psychological problem. However, the way he's done it is really not that different than getting your tongue or belly button pierced" OK, you think Abe's ritualized self-scarification is OK, or at least within the bounds of normative behavior. I think that kind of self-imposed masochistic behavior is probably, but not certainly, indicative of deep emotional problems. It's not that important to me, but it says more about Abe's character than even his cornbread comments did. I think there is a difference between piercing one's self and scarring one's self ritualistically, BTW. "I'm not sure why you have it so in for Abe, but that's your perogative. I just see that both he and Donnell have some issues to overcome" I don't "have it in so" for Abe at all. I just think what he did was vile and that he needs to go. I would feel the same way about anyone who intentionally, and with premeditation, attacked someone else. That's all. And you'r right that they BOTH have "issues" to overcome, but only one of them started throwing punches when he had already started to walk away. |
Cjr | Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 04:12 pm     Tishala, from your earlier post: I saw it completely differently. I saw the Other Guy trying to take Abe away because he had made it clear he wanted to hammer Donnel; What did you notice about Donnell's actions before this part? edited to say, never mind you answered my question in the post above. |
Max | Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 04:13 pm     We have different opinions and that's fine. HOwever there's one factual thing that I do believe you have stated incorrectly. You said, "Donnell made gay jokes, and I think they are terrible too; but it was only after Abe made his "cornbread" comment.." That's not true. In the first part of the episode when they were learning the dance moves, Donnell repeatedly made comments to Abe about how the dancing was bringing out his homosexual side. Abe kept saying he was totally okay with what they were doing. The important part here is that Donnell made bigoted comments WAY before Abe made one statement about cornbread. And, oh by the way, Abe apologized for his statement, but I never heard anything CLOSE to an apology out of Donnell for any of the bigoted statements he made. Just wanted to clarify that. On many of the other points, I think we have different views, and that's what makes this a discussion.
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Tishala | Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 04:19 pm     Max, you are missing the subordinate clause in my comment above, which says: "it was only after Abe made his "cornbread" comment, which he admitted was racist, that whatshisname had to take Abe away and EVEN THEN, he refused to stay away." It's disingenuous to quote it any other way. |
Max | Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 04:25 pm     End of discussion, Tishala. Sorry I didn't quote your entire statement. Look back at the quotes you pulled from my post and you'll see you did the same thing. So, now I guess we are both disingenuous. I'm walking away from this. We don't agree and we're not going to. That's fine with me.  |
Tishala | Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 04:29 pm     Even in my rehash of my own statement, I didn't quote the entire sentence. But I didn't change the MEANING of your comments, which is what I objected to in the way I was quoted. To quote someone in a way that changes the meaning is always disingenuous. |
Cjr | Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 04:30 pm     Tishala, where my view seems to differ from yours is the fact that Abe walked away, Donnell didn't. When Abe came back he apologized and tried to talk to Donnell, who continued his same comments, futher provoking Abe. Donnell seems to be the constant provoker, not just on this one episode. |
Tishala | Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 04:37 pm     But Cjr, I think that's because Donnell didn't have anything FROM WHICH he had to walk away. He wasn't becoming violent and needing to be restrained. Donnell correctly observed that racist comments are a bit too far--Abe could have said the same thing about homophobic comments, BTW--and I really think it infuriated Abe that Donnell didn't become animalistic as Abe wanted. Again, I don't think Donnell is a saint--I frankly think he's foolish and a dreadful person in many ways--but I don't condone violence in these situations no matter what. There is NO provocation sufficient to attack someone when you have left, been restrained, started to leave again, and been restrained again. |
Grooch | Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 05:23 pm     My 2 cents here which really mean nothing. I think Donnel and Abe are 2 peas in a pod in a certain way. If the fight didn't happen, I think by the show's end, they would have become good friends like Coral and Mike from NY2. One thing you have to watch for is the editing. They keep showing Abe discussing his side, but you don't see Donnell doing the same. Before this episode, they have both been going after each other with little digs at each other. But when it comes to mission time, they both put it aside and work togther. Before the mission, I see both Donnell and Cara picking on Abe for his ideas/pov. I also see Christinia talking with Abe about his views re interracial dating, etc. Obviously, Abe must have made his opinions known that he is against it. How would this make Donnell and Cara feel (along with Christinia)? Christinia talked with Abe saying that his opinions/ views are not going over well with the rest of the group and that they get upset when they talk to him and he just laughs at them in response. Is Abe a bad guy for this? Maybe for his viewpoints but at the same time he is trying to learn more and change them. Also, at the same time he is getting "picked" on too, and starts to close up, emotionally. Now, comes the time of their new missiion. The 3 men have to dance in a thong in a gay club. I think this is a very stressful thing for all 3 of them, but esp Abe who admits he is a homophobe. He just wants to be left alone and get through the mission. I have a problem with this mission, because why don't they ask the girls to do the same thing? Go and dance in a thong in front of a bunch of men or women? Because it would be considered demeaning to them. I think the same consideration should be taken for the men. MTV is wrong with this mission. I know when I am totally stressed out, I just want my space and be left alone. My nerves are stretched to the nth degree. I do not want to hear any jokes or wisecracks from anyone. Otherwise I will snap. These guys have no where to go and escape from this. Donnell makes a bunch of jokes, but I do think he is stressed out too, and is making jokes to cover it up and reflect from his own insecurities. They both should have stopped then. When they get into it, Abe makes the cornbread joke. Took me a while to get it, because I never would have considered corn bread could be taken in a racist way, but Abe managed it. If you take the same exact conversation and substituted watermelon for the word cornbread, I think we would have a lot more people sitting up and taking notice. Why would Abe choose a racial joke over a fat joke, a gay joke, an ugly joke, etc? I think when Abe was apologizing, Donnell was trying to refrain from pyhsically going off on him. He looks really pissed off and trying to control himself. Why didn't mtv show any interview clips of what Donnell was thinking at this time? I think they have both been going after each other, and they were both extrememly stressed by this mission and Abe went for the jugular. And like I said before, if they got to stay togther on this trip, I believe they would work it out. But Abe got pyhsical, and he needs to go. Violence is violence. Just my thoughts. Neither one is a saint. |
Puttergirl | Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 05:41 pm     I think I've made my opinion clear. I personally feel more for Abe's position than Donnel, but don't condone violence. I have said that if one goes, they should both go. I still think that. Verbal abuse (Donnel) should not be tolerated any more than physical abuse (Abe). Unfortunately, while MTV makes the physical against the rules (and rightfully so), I think they encourage the verbal, not realizing that it can be just as dangerous!!! Oh, one other thing. I want ya'll to know that when I did those searches above and found those facts about Abram, I also did them for Donnel and found nothing but the recent articles about his domestic violence charges. I would have posted whatever I found, good or bad, if it hadn't already been discussed here. |
Tishala | Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 05:45 pm     wondering how many people would actually be on the shows if verbal abuse weren't permitted..... |
Puttergirl | Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 05:50 pm     If you mean what I think, Tishala, thats a pretty cynical viewpoint and I'd been seeing your posts as more positive than the rest of us. I would hope that most people go on it so they can have an exciting experience they would never have otherwise. Maybe that's naive, but its why I would do it. The better question is probably how many of us would watch it without conflict. Its obvious that conflict makes for better ratings on reality shows, but when it gets to the level this one did, I think most people found it painful. Whichever way you feel, I think you can tell from the posts that most people experienced a sense of deja vu in watching Donnel and remembering times in their own life when they were bullied/verbally abused and felt helpless about it. |
Tishala | Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 05:52 pm     No Putter, it's just they are ALL so abusive. Donnell uncommonly so. But look at....oh, any season of Real World and they are ALL guilty. Especially the season with Tanya. |
Puttergirl | Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 05:53 pm     BTW, Tishala, I really appreciate the stimulating conversation you kept going here. Since most people didn't agree with your viewpoint, it took yours to keep this discussion fresh!! |
Puttergirl | Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 05:55 pm     I agree with you there, Tishala. Which I think strengthens my point that MTV not only condones it but probably encourages it. But, unfortunately, violence is where it often leads. I wish they would take the clue from similar programs such as Amazing Race and The Mole, that things can be done more civilly (sp?) and without as much sex and still be something people want to watch. |
Tishala | Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 05:57 pm     I don't mind the sex, except in LV maybe, but I agree about the verbal confrontations all the time. I think they think that's the way people are supposed to talk to each other--and heck, maybe we do at this point. But I don't think we need to celebrate that, and MTV apparently disagrees with me. |
Seamonkey | Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 06:08 pm     Tishala, I totally agree with
Quote:wondering how many people would actually be on the shows if verbal abuse weren't permitted.....
I think that increasingly, MTV has recruited for these tendencies and probably those who apply are also self-selecting for those tendencies. And unfortunately, Putter is probably right about ratings being better this way. Personally that isn't true.. I was originally hooked by the psychosocial aspects of reality tv (your basic people-watching fascination) and I much preferred the kinder, gentler BB1 to the later versions (this isn't saying I'm not hooked to this day). |
Seamonkey | Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 06:14 pm     Tishala, you posted while I was.. I think the "houseguests" have learned that they get way more camera time (which they crave) and more important to many, if they are confrontational they are more likely to get invited on the challenges. Sad, but true. Once in a while they are tricked.. Like, Ruthie was loved by the MTV people for her outrageous behavior (I loved her for coming back from it and, althought it seemed to take lots of time, seemingly kicking the alcohol habit) but although she CAN dish it out, on the last challenge season, she was pretty much the touchstone for many of them and she seemed to hold the sanity of the bunch and kicked butt in the challenges along with Ellen . |
Squaredsc | Monday, July 07, 2003 - 07:20 am     dang i wish i had watched this show from the beginning so i could make an intelligent comment, but i didn't so i can't. btw could someone post the cornbread comment? |
Gina8642 | Monday, July 07, 2003 - 07:28 am     Personally I wish they'd stop casting people like Donnel. I think we'd get a lot more out of seeing Christina slowly talk to Abe about race etc. And possibly see his opinions change. (In contrast to seeing Abe and Donnel pick at one another until Abe attempts to beat up Donnel.) Donnel, to me, is just like Puck. I never enjoyed watching Puck. Obviously some did. Guess that's why they keep trying to cast a new one. As far as the Abe self-mutilation thing. It is extrodinarily close minded to cast dispersions on him for it. It is similar to tatooing, IMO. If you'd ever been to Montana you'd know that tatoo parlors arn't on every corner. He did what he could. Also, it is typical of some native american tribes of that area to self-mutilate. Read up on the Sun Dance and prayer flags of the Sioux (Dakota, Lakota, etc...) people if you don't believe me. While I don't 'get' the Sun Dance - I don't cast dispersions on people for taking part in it. I grew up Catholic. If you look at the whole taking of communion from an outside point of view - it seems pretty bizzare too. However I'd be just as offended if people cast dispersion on it. Also as far as the quality of the Universities in Montana. I went to school in Montana and am extrondianily offended by calling them bad. They offer an excellent education for those that want one - like the kids on the dean's list. There are also certain diciplines (forestry, Wildlife management, Range Management, Ag, etc. where they excel.) Montana is a HUGE state. Income levels are pretty low and unemployment is high. Even families that have a lot of money on paper (say they own a mult-million acre ranch) are very cash poor. The vast majority of families in Montana cannot afford to send their kids out of state and pay out of state tuitions. Just traveling in and out of Montana costs three times as much as anywhere else. I'm not going to judge someone because his parent's weren't rich enough to send him out of state. Anyway - Abe hit someone, that is wrong. If they kick him off for it it, fine by me. I still think it would have been a better show without someone like Donnel. Personally I think Donnel's issues with this challange had more do with the fact that he has homosexual tendencies. I think he's afraid the guys might call him on it. I think resorting to the 'race' issue for him is ducking what is really bothering him. BTW - how come no one is getting on Abe's case for his homophobia? (Which I think is very real, unlike his 'cornbread comment' which was only designed (poorly at that) to piss off Donnel) |
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