Archive through July 06, 2003
TV ClubHouse: Archive: Road Rules - South Pacific (ARCHIVES):
Archive through July 06, 2003
Cjr | Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 08:01 pm     I understand and agree with Pantageas statements on violence in theory. The difference is that we don't have to live 24/7 with someone who is constantly taunting and belittling as Donnell was doing. People have their limits. I do not agree with Pantageas regarding Abe acting worse than Donnell. I don't agree that Abe hit Donnell because his apology wasn't accepted. He actually tried to talk to Donnell several times. As I stated in an earlier post, in order for talking or discussing to work, you have to have listening. I have seen improvements in Abe's attitude on this show. He has listened to people, unlike Donnell who continued with the same behavior. The staff of the show will not intervene until violence happens. I saw what was coming. MTV staffers must have seen it coming. But they let it go on. I wonder what would have happened if Abe would have went to the Producers and said he couldn't take it anymore. Would they have threatened Donnell with expulsion from the show if he didn't stop with his comments and constant taunting and remarks? I doubt it. History of RW and RR doesn't point in that direction. When people are backed into a corner they will come out fighting. Nothing that Abe said to Donnell in the days leading to this fight did any good. Donnell learned a lesson the hard way. I still stand by my statement of him being a bully and he got what he was asking for. Maybe he'll learn to stop being a bully. Okay, I'll edit to add he didn't deserve to get hit. But he needs a good lesson somehow!  |
Puttergirl | Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 08:04 pm     No offense, Pantageas. Glad to hear your views too. Thats what makes this board fun. Most of us can argue on an issue like this without taking it personally. And believe me, few of us really condone violence, although it may sound like it. |
Seamonkey | Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 08:20 pm     Yeah, I'm not putting down your feelings Pantageas, not at all. I hate violence of any kind. But, I don't find most of the comments all that outrageous, either. Unfortunately we know that Donnell may not have learned a whole lot.. since he went back home and is alleged to have beat up the girlfriend once again |
Cjr | Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 08:44 pm     If he gets sentenced to jail maybe he'll learn a lesson then. I would suggest he not taunt his cellmate.  |
Max | Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 09:16 pm     Great point, Cjr. Having been in a marriage where verbal abuse was an almost daily occurrance, I can honestly say that words may not break bones like stones can, but they break something that mends a whole lot slower: spirit. I can't tell you how many times I dared my ex-spouse to hit me instead of taunt, belittle, and degrade me. What would have happened next would have been VERY clear cut. That never happened, though, and it took me seven years to find enough gumption to leave and more time to overcome all the negativity. Abe was wrong to come out with fists swinging, but believe me, I totally understand the desire. There is a limit to how much a human being can tolerate and, when you absolutely cannot walk away, everyone has a breaking point. Abe could have left, but the next time he saw Donnell, I'm 100% positive Donnell would have started in with the same verbal abuse as before. Would you want to be in that situation? Believe me, it ain't pretty. |
Cjr | Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 09:54 pm     Max, I think what you posted about your marriage is the reason so many people understand why Abe lost it. I doubt that the people that posted these views, including myself, are people who have rooted for fights on reality tv shows in the past. Even though my marriage wasn't like yours, I have a few good friends who have gone through similar relationships and I watched their spirits break. It is unbearably sad. I am very glad you were able to leave and make your life better.  |
Monkeyboy | Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 09:58 pm     I stand by my mis spelled quote!!!!  |
Seamonkey | Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 10:44 pm     Max, I totally hear you about that type of situation.. my marriage lasted 13 years, partly because I don't like to give up and the mind-games and verbal assaults didn't start in the first years. If Donnell ever does have to do some time, it won't be pretty for him.. somehow I don't think he'd get much sympathy from the inmates OR the staff with his attitude. |
Alisons | Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 09:46 am     I haven't seen the hitting episode yet, so I am kind of puzzling over some of the remarks. For example, why is it racist to refer to eating cornbread? I have never heard of any particular connection between cornbread and any ethnic group except perhaps my own, since I am a Native American. Donnell comes across as a jerk to me, but I would just ignore him or point out his liabilities as a mission member when he starts his usual. I get the feeling that there is a lot going on that we are not seeing. |
Puttergirl | Friday, July 04, 2003 - 01:28 pm     I just watched it again and my opinion hasn't changed. I am so repulsed by Donnel its hard to describe. I don't condone Abram's resorting to violence, but I completely understand it. Donnel seems to have made himself an expert at how to push people's buttons and he is quite good at it!!! Anyway, on second viewing, I'm convinced from the preview from last week that Abram is staying. There were 2 big clues: 1. Donnel seems disgusted with the decision in several shots and Abram seems satisfied. 2. The editing of the male dancing strongly suggests that Abram is there. The shots are cut in such as way that I was led to believe Abram is in them but blocked out. My last observation from second viewing was about the girls: 1. Cara- without any real discussion or seeing the tape, Cara jumps on the chance to kick Abram off. I was disappointed in her for that. She needed to at least view the tapes before deciding. 2. Marybeth- admitted that she had teased Abram and was now aware how wrong it was and that she shouldn't have done it. I was glad to see her come to that realization. 3. Christena- I was really proud of her. Even when told that there was a racial remark involved, she understood how badly Donnel had pushed Abram and was willing to give him another chance. She, of all of them, understood that Abram had only uttered something that would get through to Donnel since Donnel wouldn't let him get a word in. And he was sorry for doing so. |
Disappear | Friday, July 04, 2003 - 09:20 pm     (c) I don't condone violence, much, and I wasnt one of those gung-ho war guys. But it was obvious that words weren't getting to Donnell... |
Alisons | Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 05:31 pm     Well, saw the episode. No one came off well, but as they say, "It takes two to tango," and I think that Donnell was right in there adding to the situation - it is hard to watch his actions and say, "Oh yes, he was a victim." |
Seamonkey | Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 10:23 pm     I was busy watching Trading Spaces but flipped during commercials and saw the taunting and really more how Abe kept trying to calm down and communicate calmly and Donnell just got snarkier and snarkier and more and more condescending. UGH |
Tishala | Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 11:13 pm     I saw it completely differently. I saw the Other Guy trying to take Abe away because he had made it clear he wanted to hammer Donnel; Other Guy talls Abe to chill. Abe then gets lose, begins walking, then charges Donnell. The attack was premediated. I firmly believe that, if Abe were black [a la Steven] and Donnel were cute and blond, opinions about this incident would be different. One either condones or condemns violence; there really cannot be a middle ground if you think hitting people with whom you live is wrong. |
Theowl | Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 07:48 am     I didn't see this episode until yesterday, but from reading here, I knew I was going to be on Abes side. Not because of the black-white or the cornbread-gay situations, but because Donnell reminds me of my sister and I when we fought as kids. I tried to keep my cool, but she kept making comments under her breath and egging me on. She was so cool, and knew that she would get to me eventually, and it worked. And that GRIN!! Boy, I don't blame Abe for going after D. He was asking for it. Abe knew he would get in trouble with mom and dad, I mean the producers, but I could only take so much, I mean he could only take so much!! Boy, I'm getting confused now. Having flash-backs, must go call my sister!!  |
Seamonkey | Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 12:17 pm     Tishala, I totally agree that hitting is wrong but I also consider the person who purposely works to elicit the violence as equally violent. Like Donnell did, like Puck did to LA David on the RR challenge. Like Will did to Nicole. Reality shows now have this unfortunate dynamic where some people are working to evoke behavior that will send someone else home. Abe has MANY faults and heaps of ignorance, but IMO so does Donnell. One difference is that Abe was beginning to admit some of his faults. Donnell knows but tends to brag about it in that "I'm so cute" way in his confessionals to the camera. I don't think it is a black/white issue.. I came into this season totally stoked that Donnel was there, because he doesn't fit the reality show stereotype and I hoped he'd kick some butt (by succeeding himself, not by tearing others down) and change some minds. My first impressions of Abe were very negative and haven't gotten TOO much better, so I'm not predisposed to take Abe's side. If one is sent home, both should be sent home. |
Tishala | Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 12:34 pm     Only one did the hitting, however, and it wasn't Donnell. Maybe I am all alone here, but someone who scars himself for whatever reason is not really the most...shall we say "balanced"?....person on the planet. Sure, Donnell egged him on, but if I responded to everyone in my life who egged me on, I'd be i prison. People who create scars on their bodies might do better to add more scars than they would be to try to harm others. You may not think this is a "black/white" issue, but I respectfully disagree. It started with a racist comment. That makes it inherently a black/white issue. It's interesting that we are reading Donnell's relationship outside the show into this discussion, be we are not looking at Abe's very visible habit of configuring violence even though we can see it on his arms and on his chest. Oh well. Simple double standards is all I will say. As I said before, one either condemns or condones violence against people with whom one lives. I condemn it. |
Sweetbabygirl | Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 12:50 pm     Okay, just finished watching "THE Episode" - my comments.... Donnell - Reminds me of my cousin, who was extremely obnoxious when he was younger. Michael would find a person's achilles heel and harp on it until you either walked away or told him to shut the <> up. My opinion of Donnell has changed drastically since reading a few of the articles at The Smoking Gun...he's a timebomb waiting to explode, and he will likely be the next person voted off. Abe - Let's face it, some of the comments he has made HAVE been ignorant (i.e., his views on interracial dating, his treatment of the ladies). Montana, Russia, Philadelphia - I don't buy the excuse of "Well, all his life he's been around people that think the same." What, you don't want to broaden your horizons? You don't want to question what you observe in your daily life? It is one thing to have that type of mentality as a child because you don't know any better, but to not take advantage of learning about diversity as an adult is inexcusable. That said, while Donnell was a straight-up jerk to egg Abe on, Abe should have just walked away with a hearty "F-you!" and, unless it had to do with remaining missions, avoided him like the plague. By returning to fight Donnell, HE made the choice to stoop to a level that was unnecessary and will likely send him home. (c) |
Seamonkey | Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 01:34 pm     I thought the problems in this episode started out with homophobic remarks. Abe's scars seem to come from the same place as wanting a tattoo or piercing. I don't think he's a self-mutilator in the classic sense of being a "cutter" or using burning, etc., to keep control, or feel real. I think both guys have many issues and insecurities and flaws (so do I, but I don't take it out on others) and not much maturity in either case. Argh.. I need to get off the board, I'm still wanting to think about the good tennis I've been watching. |
Tishala | Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 01:36 pm     Sea, he has already talked about his cutting rituals. |
Cjr | Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 02:11 pm     Tishala, I can only speak for myself, but the black/white issue is dead wrong in my case. I didn't like Abe's comments at all but Donnell's comments re: homosexuals are just as bad. Neither is a person I would to be around in my life but I just happen to see Abe as the one trying to talk to Donnell time after time and not getting anywhere. Both could have walked away, neither did. While hitting is wrong, so is verbal abuse. |
Puttergirl | Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 02:21 pm     Here's a couple of things about Abram I bet most of you didn't know: (from the Bozeman Daily Chronical) 1. "Abram Boise has been invited back to MTV to participate in a Road Rules/Real World challenge show, which MTV will begin filming in July. He said he knows little about the challenge show." 2. Boise, a native of Livingston, has always been outspoken. He is a senior studying prelaw at the University of Montana-Western, in Dillon, and will be the student body president in the fall." |
Cjr | Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 02:24 pm     Wow, thanks Puttergirl. This is very interesting and I certainly didn't know about Abe being in pre-law. Hard to picture. |
Tishala | Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 02:29 pm     He mentioned pre-law in the first episode, if I remember correctly. |
Seamonkey | Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 02:34 pm     Tishala.. yes he has talked about his cutting/scarring.. and that isn't typical of someone doing it because of self-hate/childhood issues.. mostly they hide the cutting and the evidence. I agree his actions are strange. Donnell not only makes homophobic comments but he's suggesting that Abe is gay.. because he knows that will get to Abe. Believe me I see all arguments here and dismiss none of them. The sad truth is these two aren't showing much class or dignity here. Yeah, I knew MTV would be pulling Abe into the challenge.. he's a natural for the challenge part and unfortunately he has the attributes MTV loves.. ignorance and the joy of sharing his ignorance without thinking and a hot temper |
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