Archive through July 25, 2003
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TV ClubHouse: Archive: Queer Eye for the Straight Guy (ARCHIVES): Archive through July 25, 2003

Squaredsc

Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 01:58 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
no calamity, i wasn't. <sigh> its just that, hmmm, how can i say this without offending anyone? i was/am really enjoying the show till the discussion took a turn. that doesn't mean that i think people shouldn't post their viewpoints, it just kinda took a little of the sparkle out of me, imo.

Calamity

Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 02:21 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Well, I'm with you there, Square! I thought the show was great fun and not at all meant to be divisive. I just wanted to explain myself since my wording had been questioned and someone likened it racism. That was rather unpleasant. Okay, that's my final word on the subject.

Bastable

Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 02:30 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Square, if you're allowed to say that my personal opinions have taken the sparkle out of you, then I'm not going to feel bad for saying this show takes the sparkle out of me.

And Calamity, Amos and Andy was more than a radio show. It was also on TV with black actors.

Everyone has every right to cherish whatever TV show they like. That should go without saying. But I do think that when someone voices some sensitive issues, it's not very respectful to tell them that their being offended is a buzzkill. That implies that the very thing that someone found offensive made the other person elated. If we were talking about something like minstrel shows, such a thing would never be done.

Sanfranjoshfan

Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 03:40 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
As a gay man. I'll admit that this show has entertained me....but I will also admit that I cringe all the way through it.

Weeks or more before it aired I saw promos on BRAVO's website advertising for str8 men (and their friends) to submit applications of this upcoming show. The str8 guys on this show are all very gay friendly....they *asked* to come on the show.. They are not homophobic and they take all the kidding just fine.

My problem is that Carson, for one, is always making sexual comments to the fashion victim. There have been remarks about "making out", how cute the guy is, etc.. Those remarks are often punctuated with him caressing the face and hair of the str8 guy, etc...

My problem with this is that it is NOT how most gay people are to most str8 men! It IS, however, how gay people are often *mistakenly perceived* by many str8 men. In fact, it's that very idea that supports "Don't Ask, Don't Tell".....they think that the soldiers will all be distracted bacause they'll have to fend off all the unwanted advances by the gay soldiers!

It just bugs me that they are presenting this overt, str8 man pseudo-seduction crap, because that is NOT what gay people are all about. The gay guys on the show see it all as simply playing it up for fun. The str8 guys on the show see it the same way......but I am sure that some people that watch this will come away with their anti-gay bigotry reinforced because they saw actual gay men "coming on" to actual str8 men. When people have a predisposed idea that gay men are all predators, and then see what appear to be gay predators on a REALITY SHOW, it just reinforces those misguided, ignorant notions. They won't all see it as simple kidding around.

Don't forget, the defense in the Matthew Shepard case was that they beat the poor kid half to death and left him tied to a post in the middle of nowehere to DIE alone in the cold...."because he 'came on' to us". No, that was never actually proved, but it was a stereotype that many were ready to believe without question (that a gay guy just "comes on" to str8 men all the time) and the killers in this case even felt that their murder was JUSTIFIED because of an *alleged* attempt at seduction by Matthew.

In any case, to ME, the show is entertaining because *I* know it's all just playing up the stereotypes. What bothers me is that I also watch it through the eyes of how I perceive str8 society sees it. (Btw, for all the years I knew I was gay before I ever acted upon it, that's how I HAD to live, in order to survive. Gay men learn early on to see themselves and others like themselves through str8 society's eyes...it really is a matter of survival.)

JMO...

Oh yeah....I am actually looking forward to Boy Meets Boy. I want to see what some str8 guys think when they realize just how difficult it is to stay in the closet in a society where their sexual orientation is the one that is abnormal and has to be hidden! Non gay-friendly str8s often say stuff like "I don't hate gays....just so they don't advertise the fact that they're gay!". This show will be interesting....some str8 guys learning how difficult it is to hide one's orientation and how much it eats away at one's soul.

Hippyt

Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 04:44 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Sanfran,very good points! I never really thought much about the flirting. It is a little over the top.

Squaredsc

Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 04:59 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
darn, the flirting just went right over my head, now im going to look for it, if i can remember it comes on.

Twiggyish

Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 05:02 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
What if the show is about facing stereotypes?
The title of the show..Queer Eye..is a direct hit to those who use that term in a derogatory way. Why didn't they write gay eye?
Perhaps the intention of the show is to face the gay stereotype.

I'm just looking at this from another perspective.

Maris

Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 05:38 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Sanfran, you have a short memory. You dont remember marcellas saying what he would like to do with Roddy to Roddys face, or what he would do to Eric. Marcellas was doing what this guy did, he was acting out a part for the camera and for fun.

I love this show and think it is really camp. I have gay friends and most are not like that but I am surprised that you dont know any gays at all who queen out. I certainly know a few especially when we go out for an evening or are at a party, my friends love to act out. I see this as a bunch of guys queening out. No big deal. I am sure by this point in time most people dont believe all gays act this way.

It could also be most of my friends work in the creative field and a flair for the dramatic whether you are gay or straight is the norm.

Sanfranjoshfan

Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 05:47 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Twiggyish - The word "queer" is not really considered a slur like it was in decades past....the gay community has reclaimed it in many places. It used to be on the same level as "f#g" but the word "queer" has lost it's bite after being adopted by so many gay people and organizations. (Btw, in the newest TV Guide there is a small blurb about Boy Meets Boy on page 8. There, they actually referred to the str8 guys as "breeders", which is a rude term (slur) that some gay people have sometimes used to describe heteros. I'm not saying it is okay or that's not rude, just explaining what it means in case some of you haven't heard the term before)

Yes, I do think QEFTSG is facing the gay stereotype, but while doing so, it reinforces it to those who don't "get it". I think that gay folks and gay accepting folks will all understand, but people that only know about gay people through Will & Grace and shows like QEFTSG get a very distorted view.

Sanfranjoshfan

Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 06:07 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
"Sanfran, you have a short memory. You dont remember marcellas saying what he would like to do with Roddy to Roddys face, or what he would do to Eric. Marcellas was doing what this guy did, he was acting out a part for the camera and for fun. "

No, I have a pretty good memory. I remember Marcellas making an ass out of himself like a performing monkey last year. I couldn't stand him! None of my friends are like that little self involved twit! Not a single one!

Please tell me that you are NOT suggesting that Marcellas is representative of gay men! If that is the case, then may I hold up BB4's Robert as an example of the typical str8 man? How about BB2's Eric...was he a typical average guy that represents str8 men everywhere? Are you saying that since Nicole was a psycho that she is represenative of all str8 women?

And yes, I know some guys that act nelly, but they are by far in the minority when it comes to the gay guys I know. If the queeny gay guys are maybe a couple % of the gay population, why do they make up 99.9% of the gay characters on TV?

Anyhow, Maris, I DO understand that you are gay friendly and that you have gay friends, so you are one of the people that I referred to in my post as the ones the "get it". My issue is with presenting this kind of negativity to those that DON'T "get it", the ones that don't realize it's all a joke.

Hippyt

Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 06:23 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I swear to GAWD,some of you could spend the entire day debating over a freakin donut!

Maris

Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 06:54 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Of course he isnt representative of Gay men. I am just saying I have friends who like to behave that way on occasion when we are out in a group just to camp it up.

I understand your position totally but I still love this show. My favorite is actually the guy who I think is the stylist (hair, skin, etc).

I also think that the straight men in the show do not promote homophobia in any way at all and if anything are very relaxed and comfortable even when someone is coming on to them. It makes the show that much more friendly in my mind and a fun time is had by everyone.

Scorpiomoon

Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 06:58 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I just saw this show for the first time tonight on NBC. This show rocks! I love it!

Aren't debates only reserved for the BB board?

Maris

Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 07:08 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
It is a friendly conversation, why not.

Sanfranjoshfan

Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 07:30 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I understand Maris....like I said, I find it entertaining, too. It just might be easier for you to understand my reaction if ALL women on tv were *always* (and always had been) portrayed as sad, pathetic, needy souls that cannot survive without being on the arm of a successful doctor. That's an ugly lame stereotype, but I'm betting that it would affect you if that was the ONLY way women were portrayed on TV for all of your life. At least you actually have many tv shows to choose from that have strong, intelligent, normal women characters. The only gay characters on TV are stereotypes....either the pretty boys or the big nelly queens or sexual predators.

It's truly rare to see a gay character on TV that is simply a person like all the rest of the cast. If he's not there for comic relief, he's there to present some big gay issue. Remember back in the 60's when "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner" came out? Same thing...back then, if there was a black character on TV it was either for comic relief, shock value or a political statement....but they were never or rarely just "people". That's how it is with gay shows today.

I'm not suggesting that you don't empathize or understand my point on an intellectual level, but until someone has lived a lifetime with NO role models in the media other than laughable or hated stereotypes, then it's hard to truly grasp.

Maris

Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 08:38 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
This is an interesting article.

Boston Globe

Sanfranjoshfan

Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 09:17 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Good article, Maris....it mirrored many of my own feelings. Thanks for posting the link!

Hippyt

Thursday, July 24, 2003 - 09:46 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Very good article Maris,thanks for posting that.

Skypilot

Friday, July 25, 2003 - 07:23 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I haven't seen this mentioned on this thread but the producers of this show would be doing gay men a big favor if they would keep any of the five gay men from sniffing another man's jockstrap (or other underwear) on TV. This show sank to a new low right off the bat with that scene and everything that came after sort of got filtered through my memory of that indignity. I won't be watching this show. I checked it out out of curiousity and my curiousity is satisfied although I'm not. Frankly, as a gay man, I'd love to see a show where straight men give gay men makeovers. So many gay men are focused on surfaces and they will work on those surfaces until they acquire a certain slickness and gloss which is fine in smaller doses but after a time can leave me craving for people who are more natural and unselfconscioius. Imagine always being surrounded by fashionistas and people who have to be "fabulous" all the time. I suppose that I personally have just been exposed to this "glossy" type too often and I find that I'm attracted to a more earthy type. At the risk of sounding like a "predatory" gay man who's after the straight guy, I have to say that there is something about the type of man that Butch represents that I find more appealing than anything about the five men who were making him over--although I'd have to say ixnay on the messy apartment. I loved the fact that after the five makeover guys had left and Butch finally got himself ready he took most of their advice but nixed the idea of a suit with wingtips and no socks and instead slipped on his beat up jeans. The suit with no socks thing made me think of Miami Vice but the jeans were a reminder of the natural and unselfconscious guy who wore them. And it's easier to get away with not wearing socks with jeans.

Seamonkey

Friday, July 25, 2003 - 09:56 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Butch put on his NEW beat-up jeans and still didn't wear socks, I believe, and I think the style guy adapted and applauded the finished product and the fact that Butch was taking his new ideas and adapting them already.

The wingtips will lurk in his closet until or if he has to attend some event where he feels they are necessary.

Lots of good points about stereotypes here.. but I do think my overall feeling is that this show is that it has flaws but is still quite enjoyable. Maybe I'm just used to What Not to Wear on BBC where someone's wardrobe is heavily criticized and there is also alot of touching that might make one uncomfortable to watch or experience.. Actually I think QEFASG is less abusive in this sense.

I saw the repeat of episode three last night and noticed that the str8t guy turned the tables and told his mentor to try on and model the swim trunks himself.. which he did!

Anyway, I'll acknowledge the flaws but continue to watch and enjoy this show.

The dating show is another matter; what a shame that they had to put in that shameful twist and have the hubris to think that they are being creative.. Not even new.. can we say "Jenny Jones" and "ambush"?? Yes we can.

I have to admit that the product placements had, for the most part, gone over my head, Not as blatant as what I saw on the partial episode I saw of "The Restaurant". (and I love that the BB houseguests delight in talking about the product placements they must endure (Burger King this year)..

Sanfranjoshfan

Friday, July 25, 2003 - 11:12 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Seamonkey - " can we say "Jenny Jones" and "ambush"?? Yes we can"

I'm not sure exactly what you are referring to here. I will agree that yes, it is a typical sensational ambush "twist", similar to what they had in "Joe Millionaire" and "For Love or Money", although, rather than a twist on sexual orientation, those shows had a twist involving financial motives vs love. Even this twist on orientation in "Boy Meets Boy" is similar to that...it is also a twist on motives.

However, if you are referring to the famous Jenny Jones case where a gay man professed an attraction for a str8 neighbor on her show...who then, a couple of days later, murdered the gay guy out of embarrassment, then I must disagree. Gay guys are beaten and killed all the time by homophobes, but I have never heard of a case where a gay guy murdered a str8 guy in a similar circumstance.

Seamonkey

Friday, July 25, 2003 - 12:38 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I did mean that infamous Jenny Jones debacle and my Hello? was referring to the creators of the gay dating show with the surprise str8 guys in it.. in other words setting someone up and using that as entertainment. Not a good thing.

Twist on motives, yes.

So I don't think I disagree, but if I do, cool..
I just don't think this new dating show is a good thing, but of course they never ask me.

Maris

Friday, July 25, 2003 - 02:50 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I thought of the Jenny Jones too but didnt really think in terms of the homophobe aspect of the case. To me the Jenny Jones case represents any kind of ambush situation where the intent is to humiliate someone on tv just for enjoyment.

What is the purpose of this show? To have a gay guy pick a hetero as his dream date and then what? Laugh at him, ha ha the joke is on you? That is pretty low and mean spirited in my view.

Queery Eye to me is just a fun camp show with everyone enjoying themselves.

Bastable

Friday, July 25, 2003 - 03:06 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Maris--the guy killed the other guy because he thought it was the worst thing in the world to be called gay. (BTW, in that case, there are some people who say indeed he was.) That's homophobia. He was ambushed with the information that a guy had a crush on him. I was appalled that there were people who thought that was a justification for murder.

Tishala

Friday, July 25, 2003 - 03:33 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
It seems to me--and I admit that I might be wrong about this--that whatever program featuring "openly" gay performers or performers perceived to be gay, is that they have to be all things to all people and they necessarily fail to meet competing consumer demands. THis is the case, for sure, with WIll and Grace: people in the gay press and many gay folks generally kvetch that Will should have a love interest instead of being castrated, or that Jack is too fem, or whatever.

The same thing may be true of Queer Eye, which offers five very different types of gay men, from what I can ascertain. Sure, one pretends to chase the straight guy (even though neither of them takes the flirtation seriously), one is a great cook, one loves hair and skin care, etc. This may look, to people in urban metropoles, like a form of oppression or a way of maintaining hegemonic (and perhaps patholopgical) standards of gay male behavior, but for someone in a small town in the flyover, or someone who is alienated for whatever reason from the mainstream gay community (economic, racial, etc. factors), this can look like liberation--a place where gay men can unapologetically express themselves as themselves, instead of lurking in closets or tricking in tearooms. Indeed, it is a gay culture that isn't focused on bars, which should make a few people happy.

So, it seems to me, that the show will never be all things to all people--is "Everybody Loves Raymond"?--nor should it be. But it can be transformative to gay folks...and the cultural work it does with straight folks (i.e., this is one time Bill O'Reilly can't complain because of the myth about gay folks ONLY engaing in sex, etc) is maybe inestimable.

This may not makes lots of sense. I'm still not feeling well...but I tried.