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The Hobbit: Chapter 5 Riddles in the...

The TVClubHouse: Archives: Movies & Library 2003 -2004: Library: June 2003 - April 2004: TVCH Book Club (ARCHIVES): The Hobbit: Chapter 5 Riddles in the Dark users admin

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Reiki
Member

08-12-2000

Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 8:45 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Here were go with chapter 5 - Riddles in the Dark. Enjoy.

Riddles in the Dark by Alan Lee

Riddles in the Dark by Alan Lee.


Lee was one of the artists who worked on the movie. I try whenever possible to find artwork by Tolkien himself, but there wasn't really any appropriate for this chapter.

Timeline for this chapter:

July 19 – Thursday. Gandalf and the Dwarves escape the Goblins, Bilbo finds the Ring, meets Gollum, escapes.

Picture link for this chapter.



Reiki
Member

08-12-2000

Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 9:52 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
A note on the changes made to this chapter:

From the Annotated Hobbit by Douglas A. Anderson:

The the first edition of the Hobbit (1937) contains a significantly different version of this chapter. As Tolkien wrote the sequel,...he found it necessary to revise The Hobbit in order to bring it in line with the sequel. The portrayal of Gollum has been substantially altered; in the first edition, he is not as wretched a creature. And the stakes of the riddle game are slightly different: It was still Bilbo's life if he lost, but if he won, Gollum would give him a present. The riddle contest if pretty much the same in both versions, but the conclusion in the earlier version is about half as long as that in later editions.


Reiki
Member

08-12-2000

Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 10:13 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Bilbo handles Gollum and the goblins very well in this chapter. It seemed to me that with the riddles Tolkien was trying to inject a children's story whimsy into a story which has become darker than perhaps he had originally intended. I can't remember if I guessed the riddles the first time I read the book. Now they are so familiar to me.

I never thought it fair that Bilbo won the competition based on the "What's in my pocket?" question. It was Gollum's fault for thinking this was a riddle I guess, and trying to answer it.

I think that Bilbo is already a much different hobbit than the one who set out without his handkerchiefs.

Wargod
Member

07-16-2001

Friday, March 05, 2004 - 12:01 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Definietly much different. It seems like his adventures have hardened him some. He considers killing Gollum, which he wouldn't have done before he started this adventure.

This chapter really reinforced to me what a sad and pathetic character Gollum was.

Reiki
Member

08-12-2000

Monday, March 08, 2004 - 4:13 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I always thought it said something that even the goblins were afraid of Gollum and had good reason to be. Another influence of the ring. I always imagined Gollum to be slimier. It's not until I read this first meeting again that I think that the movie got Gollum's look right.

Speaking of the movies - they are talking about making a movie version of The Hobbit. There are still some details to be worked out between the film companies who own the film and distributions rights, but Peter Jackson is open to making the film and I believe Ian McKellen has said if they make the film he will be Gandalf again. Peter Jackson is currently busy filming King Kong, so who know how many years we are talking about.

Yankee_in_ca
Member

08-01-2000

Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 1:19 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I'm finishing this chapter now.

I also found it interesting that when they first described Gollum, "Deep down here by the dark water lived old Gollum, a small slimy creature."

The annotations said these words were revised in 1966 -- before then, they didn't describe Gollum at all, it just said "Deep down here by the dark water lived old Gollum."

It says that lots of the illustrated foreign editions before this revision depicted Gollum as a large creature -- many times bigger than Bilbo. It says the 1962 Portuguese edition gives Gollum a beard, and the 1965 Japanese edition made him look like a huge reptile. (!) Interesting.

Yankee_in_ca
Member

08-01-2000

Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 1:23 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
And I must admit, I found some of the riddles very very difficult, even though this book is targeted at children & at one point Tolkien says "I imagine you know the answer, of course, or can guess it as easy as winking, since you are sitting comfortably at home and have not the danger of being eaten to disturb your thinking."

I guess I must have a very very dull adult brain :-)

To be honest, I wonder every time I read this book about the current state of education in the western world. This book was targeted towards 5-8-year-olds? (With exceptions), I know very few 5-8 year olds today who could read this on their own... But is it due to a "dumbing-down" of our culture, or just the mere fact that the language has changed? Food for thought...

Wargod
Member

07-16-2001

Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 1:59 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I'm gonna kind of disagree with you, Yankee, lol. Most 5 and 6 year olds probably couldn't read the Hobbit and get anything from it, but most of the 7 years olds I get to work with when I'm in my sons class could handle reading it and understand it.

Out here, from kindergarten on reading is a huge deal in class. When they finish working on a task, they grab a book and go read until it's time to start on something else. Even the little ones who can't read take their books and look at pictures. It's always exciting for me to sit in class and see kindergarteners reading to each other or the second graders tackling books like LOTR.

Having said that, lol, my son could read the Hobbit with no problem if he chose to. But, he sees a book that thick and gets overwhelmed. He goes through 2-3 chapter books (usually around 100, 120 pages each) a week, but show him a book thats a couple hundred pages and he won't even pick it up because "it's too hard!" or "I can't." As long as he's reading something though, I won't complain too much.

Yankee_in_ca
Member

08-01-2000

Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 3:39 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I hope you're right, Wargod. I don't have any children of my own, but my husband's son is 10 and to be honest couldn't easily read this book, nor would he have any interest in doing so, sadly.

And while it's not my profession today, I was an English Education major and do make a point of volunteering in schools from time to time. I've noticed that the level of reading, writing and spelling in the 4th-8th grades are far, far below what I would have expected, or what I remember about myself at that age. (I was reading everything I could get my hands on at a very young age, which is why in my original post I said there were certainly exceptions :-))

I think it's great that you have had a different experience -- and I truly hope that my observations are not indicative of a larger trend. I'm hoping there are lots and lots of children for whom reading is a huge deal. It's so important.

P.S. -- Reiki and everyone, I'm so sorry I can't seem to stay on topic in these threads!!! :-)

Wargod
Member

07-16-2001

Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 4:33 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Since I saw the first two LOTR movies before reading the Hobbit, everything described in the book pops up in my head as the movie version. It's kind of annoying because I keep having to remind myself that Bilbo is not an old hobbit, but a very young one in this book.

The riddles were lost on me. I think I got two of them right, lol. When I first read "What's in my pocket?" I thought, what kind of riddle is that? Then I realized I was a dope, hehe.

LOL, Yankee, this is on topic, kind of. Can kids read The Hobbit? One night in chat Reiki told me this was a good book to read to your kids, hehe. As I've been reading, I keep a pencil with me and mark off parts that I won't read aloud (anything too dark or frightening, or anyone dying gets marked off.) It's their incentive to pick up the book later and read to see what I left out!

The last school we went to (for Caleb's kindergarten) stressed reading. Everything in one way or another involved reading and they had some of the highest reading test scores in our district. This school emphasizes writing, but all the teachers we've had point out that you can't have good writers if you don't have good readers and that the two go hand in hand. We just had mid year assesments and in his class every student is either at grade level or above in reading. In Kota's class, 18 out of the 22 students are reading books for their age group on their own. It is very exciting to watch, lol. And like you said, it is so important. Teaching kids when they're this young to love to read is huge. Yep, just a little bit passionate about reading here, LOL.


Reiki
Member

08-12-2000

Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 5:49 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I think the kids in your school are very lucky war. I wish more schools stressed the importance of reading in the early grades. Everything we learn is built on our ability to read and comprehend what we read. Teach them to read and the rest of it will follow.

I always gave books as gifts to my niece and nephews (and now to their children). When they were little I read to them. As they got older I took great joy in having them read the stories to me. I used to think they must have thought I was a fuddy duddy auntie, but as they have gotten older they have told me how much it meant to them to have them share reading with me. It really tickles me when I see them buying and reading the same books to their children that I gave and read to them.

Twiggyish
Member

08-14-2000

Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 7:10 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I think Gollum is pathetic, too. He is influenced by the ring. (Agreeing with above)

I find it interesting that Bilbo seems immune (at this point) to that part of the ring.

Ocean_islands
Member

09-07-2000

Wednesday, March 10, 2004 - 4:34 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I've always thought this chapter represented some of Tolkiens' finest writing, mostly I guess because of the riddles, which I think are so cool. I wish he had done more riddle competitions in other books, but to my knowledge he did not.