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The Matrix: Reloaded ***SPOILER THREA...

The TVClubHouse: Archives: Movies & Library 2003 -2004: Movies: May 2003 - April 2004: The Matrix: Reloaded ***SPOILER THREAD*** users admin

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Spygirl

Saturday, May 17, 2003 - 4:29 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I just got back from watching this and cannot wait to talk to others who have seen it. It was absolutely incredible! Faery, I read in the regular thread that you wanted to toss around some things about the movie, and I think that is a great idea.


Where in the world do we begin???

Or maybe we should begin with discussing the purpose of this thread

Mssilhouette

Sunday, May 18, 2003 - 8:03 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
LOL I have had several loooong discussions with my BF about the Matrix. So we've been dissecting this movie for a few days now. Normally we discuss these points:

The MAJOR mind job given to the resistance and the real purpose for Zion.

Agent Smith and his ability to insert his code into everyone & why was Neo able to control the machines outside the matrix

How the Orcale is really a progam, but is she a good program or a bad one?

and... this one dawned on me one late night...

Remember the scene with the Hedonist (french cursing guy) who asks NEO to watch while the blonde sexy lady is given a cake with "special" code that gives her an orgasm.

Well I started to recall that they really don't eat anything while in the Matrix.
Execpt that in Matrix 1 Neo eats:

1) a red pill from Morp - Which allows him to wake up so that pill must be code of some type.

2) a cookie from the Oracle - that after she tells him his not THE ONE makes him feel better.

Matrix 2: We see NEO accept another RED pill (even though it's only candy and he doesn't eat it)

This lead me to believe that NEO is being fed special code which allow him to have the abilities that no one else does. (Remember in the matrix everything and everyone is simple encoded representations of themselves)

Spygirl

Sunday, May 18, 2003 - 9:12 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
LOL - whooohoooo!! Let the discussions begin....


Okay, so the major mind job and the resistance... The Achitect, as smart as he is, could not eliminate the free will that is inherent within humans. The members of the resistance are the ones who did not "buy into" the world presented by the machines inside the Matrix. They were then unplugged and stored away in Zion. As the population of Zion increases and they continue their search for "the one" thanks to the false prophecy generated by the Oracle, everything climaxes into the war that 5 times has wiped out the entire population of Zion, except for a few (was it 17 men and 6 women? 23? I can't remember). They left the remainders so that they could do the whole thing over again and increase the viability of the Matrix each time.

Now, so based on that (assuming I got all that right), I do think the Oracle is a program that has a specific purpose to set forth the prophecy so that Zion will search for "the one", and then "the one" will then continue the belief that they can beat the machines, each time giving the Architect yet another "round" at increasing the efficiency of the Matrix and each time better understanding the idea of choices (presented to Neo by the Architect). The Oracle is a program with a purpose - and her purpose is to keep the members of Zion in check by having them search for Neo. When the population gets too high (I think it was 250,000 - which is .01% of the "Matrix" population), then it is time to wipe them out and start over. If they were allowed to grow beyond that point, they could begin to put up a fight in the attack.

So we know that Neo did choose differently this time than he did previously because of his love for Trinity. In the previous trials, Neo had developed an attachment for the human race that this time was overshadowed by his love for Trinity. But how was he able to control the machines outside of the Matrix?

I dont believe Neo and the "new Smith" actually gained powers from their experiences of late (from killing one another to the major fight segment in this movie), but instead still have the powers they would in the the Matrix and are copying codes from one another during their confrontations. What I think we'll find is the real world where Zion is located is nothing more than another virtual world itself. It is a world created for those who believe they have been freed or re-awakened - another form of control. And Neo...well, I think Neo really is the one and is just beginning to understand that - he can actually control the machines whether inside or outside of the Matrix.

One of the main reasons this makes sense is in his dreams in the beginning of the movie. How can Neo dream about what is going to happen to Trinity inside the Matrix, when Neo himself is in Zion which is supposed to be disconnected from the Matrix? He couldn't unless Zion is a second Matrix, connected to the first one, and Neo was programmed to dream that way, and to follow his course....to serve his purpose. So, I believe Zion is a second Matrix and the "real world" has yet to be revealed to us.


Finally, I believe that Neo is able to control the machines outside the first Matrix because he himself is a program - he is admittedly an anomaly, Agent Smith talked about being able to learn his code, and the Architect said something about the Neo code....I think he is something other than human.

I also think Agent Smith is a rogue program that is now personally intent on destroying Neo (or Neo's program) because Neo killed him, making his program obsolete. I think there was a reference from Neo in the beginning of "upgrades" to the agent's programming. Smith was outdated and pissed

Finally, the whole conversation with the Counselor in Zion includes a lot of foreshadowing about the harmony of man and machine that I think cannot be overlooked. I wonder who the counselors are (that panel of "old" people)...are they members of the currently re-built Zion? Was the Counselor the former "One" or previous Neo?

All food for thought!!

Ketchuplover

Sunday, May 18, 2003 - 1:12 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Sorry but my brain's on a diet :)

Faerygdds

Sunday, May 18, 2003 - 10:01 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
So glad this thread is finally here!!!

First of all I agree with a lot Spy has to say. I believe that they are not truly "unplugged", but Zion is a Matrix within a Matrix. What I disagree with is the choice he made for Tinity over the Human Race. I was watching the other monitors VERY closely during the scene with the architect. I believe that all the figures turned and went in the SAME direction. All the past Neos and the present one chose hope over humanity.

Which leads to spoilers for the Revolution. I believe that he has to, at some point, return to the architect as he has done in every other incarnation and chose humanity at last. But will he do this again? He stated at the end, "something is different" and then stopped the sentinel. Which to me, proves that he is still within the matrix. Another selling point for this theory is the rogue program, Smith. Smith is code. He MUST exist within a program. Therefore, for him to still be alive, they must be in a program, and therefore, Zion does not truly exist.

The architect gave the answer to what the Oracle is. Another means of controlling the program. I throroughly enjoyed her scene with Neo, as I did the ones in the first movie. The quote from the original that really gets me is, "What's really going to bake your noodle is would have broken it [vase] had I not mentioned it?" It's very telling. She is yet another means for the machines to control the humans.

So where do we go from here??? I don't know.. I have theories, but I can't wait to see where the Warshowski brothers take it!!!

Neko

Wednesday, May 21, 2003 - 1:48 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I loved how, not once, did The Architect say he was The Source.
And since Morpheus said, that once Neo met with The Source, he war would be over.
But since Neo didn't, that explains the not ending of the war.

Also, the guy, the one survivor of the blast and attack with the machines, I believe, is Agent Smith in disguise.
That would explain why he wanted to kill Neo with the knife back at Zion.

Which would prove the Zion is just antoher level to the Matrix, or another Matrix all together, since Smith is a program (A renegade one at that), he shouldn't be able to take a body in "the real world".

The twins aren't dead. Those two'll be back.

Also, Persephone will be back as well.
They wouldn't have made such a big deal about her if she was not..

And I don't like the French guy, I will know refer to him as "The Loser".

Lyra

Thursday, May 22, 2003 - 6:42 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Wow, Spygirl thanks for posting that -- you were able to put together all the bits that were floating around in my mind in a cogent way.

I definitely agree with Zion being a matrix within the matrix. My only real complaint was the abrupt ending - fade to black, "to be continued" and that's it.

Faerygdds

Thursday, May 22, 2003 - 7:11 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Lyra.. as I posted in the other thread. the movie was twice the length they needed, so they found a decent place and cut it in half for two movies. That's why the "abrupt" ending and cliffhanger. I knew beforehand, so I wasn't too shocked, but many were.

Just an FYI

Mssilhouette

Saturday, May 24, 2003 - 12:46 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
You know everyone keeps saying that Zion is just another matrix. But maybe it is the real world. Just because Agent Smith is a program and existed in the real world does not mean that they are still in the Matrix.

Ponder if you will....

The Matrix is hardwired to a humans brain. You plug in (sign on) and you're in the world of the matrix. This means that the computer is linked seamlessly with your brain. That's why abrupt unplugging is fatal and bringing older people out of the Matrix is risky. (Remember the Matrix 1 when they said that they normally don't unplug someone as old as Neo, cause they can't handle the stress of reality)

So I submit that Zion is in the real world and they are unplugged. The reason why Agent Smith exists in the "real world" is because of the process of the Matrix. If a program can essentially run itself inside your brain and kill you because your brain agrees with the Matrix's laws then being taken over by a program would essentially rewrite a person's personality and will.

I believe that's what happened to that guy. Agent Smith's "program" or persona overwrote the guy’s. Hence he lives in the real world and that small program survives. Let's not forget that humans are batteries and that the brain communicates using electronic pulses so a program can exist outside of the Matrix.

I do believe that Agent Smith has changed just as Neo has changed. The scene in the playground/park Agent Smith said as much. He said that he didn't know why but maybe some part of him was rewritten onto Neo or vise versa. Which is why Smith is able to copy himself and make his code dominant. Smith also said that he wasn't free. That when Neo destroyed him that he knew what he was supposed to do (be deleted) but he was COMPELLED to do otherwise. I believe this phrase is important because it says that Smith didn't really want to disobey his programming but he HAD to. Which leaves me to wonder who's really controlling the strings. I think Neko’s point about The Source might be dead on.

Also I believe that Neo and Smith are two sides of the same coin now. Where Neo has been altered (the Architect said so "While the process has changed you, you are still inextricably human...some of what I say you will understand and some you will not" ) so has Smith. And with the clips of the 3rd and final installment, one can see how this is so. Smith is the warrior for The Matrix and Neo is the warrior for humanity.

But then there’s the matter of The Oracle. She said that her ONLY interest was in “the future” and she knows that the machines and human have to work together.

In any case I think this final installment will be the best. But I can tell you that this 2nd one left a lot of folks either A) Loving it, B) hating it or C) completely confused by it. LOL

Meemo

Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 1:56 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
superb job spygirl!!

Spygirl

Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 3:56 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
LOL - I saw my name in the new messages view and had to come in and re-read my post to see what I was being complimented on :) Thanks, Meemo...can you tell I'm a tiny bit of a Matrix nut?

Neko

Saturday, September 20, 2003 - 9:54 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
So, how long till the new Matrix??

Can't wait to rent this when it comes out..
Or has it already?
LOL

Spygirl

Saturday, September 20, 2003 - 10:38 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
NOVEMBER!!

Neko

Saturday, September 20, 2003 - 7:29 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
*Does a happy dance*
Only two months away!!

Not even that!!