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Order of the Phoenix- Chapters 26-The...

The TVClubHouse: Archives: Movies & Library 2003 -2004: Library: June 2003 - April 2004: Harry Potter (ARCHIVES): Order of the Phoenix- Chapters 26-The End (Pages 570-end) users admin

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Squaredsc

Monday, June 30, 2003 - 11:52 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
ok ive finally finished the book. it was great, now im ready for the next one. woo hoo!!!

Rissa

Tuesday, July 01, 2003 - 10:40 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Hey all. I wanted to add something to a conversation going in another thread... but don't want to potentially ruin fun for anyone who hasn't read the whole book yet so will post here to be safe.

Before this book was released, I asked about the following:

Voldemort tells Harry that his father was a muggle JUST LIKE HARRY'S MOTHER... but Harry's mother was not a muggle, she came FROM a muggle family. Voldemort's father knew absolutely no magic, so it wasn't a case of him using the word to apply to muggles who are also part of the wizard world. The quote I referred to is: 'You stand, Harry Potter, upon the remains of my late father,' he hissed softly. 'A Muggle and a fool....very like your dear mother."

I was trying to ask how seriously we should be taking each word since it seems JK made an oops with the above. Someone said that Voldemort doesn't see the distinction........ I am wondering now if anyone has had a change of heart. Seeing how Voldemort has obviously kept his past secret from his followers (or rather they don't know his father was a muggle), so it seems Voldemort is massively aware of the difference after all, although I will agree that his followers probably lump muggles and muggle born wizards together.

Even more important though is HOW and WHY his followers don't know. I can't figure out how he has kept it from them, they seem to be so consumed with pure bloodlines. Any thoughts?

PS Want to go on record that I think Harry and Ginny will end up together. I have no idea why I think that, the books haven't really hinted at anything... I have just believed it from the moment Ginny was introduced as a character and can't budge it. :)

Allietex

Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 1:48 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I think it perfectly believable that Voldemort would hide his muggle background. This is exactly what some of the Nazis that had Jewish blood did during World War II. There have been many such examples of people hiding a "taint" through extreme behavior.

Rissa

Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 7:36 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Allie, oh I believe he would WANT to hide it... what I am asking is HOW. RFLOL They all seem to be so aware of everyone's parentage, especially the *pure-bloods*. Why is it that no-one is aware of who Voldemort's father is?

I have a bad memory but it seems to me that they all know who Tom Riddle is, right? They know about his parents and what happened to them..... so is it a matter of them not realizing that Voldemort is Tom Riddle? That doesn't make sense to me since Harry knows, and most if not all of Hogwart's knows.... but it's the only thing I can think of.

Hermione69

Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 8:47 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
It could just simply be a case of his followers wanting to believe in him and not wanting to look too closely at his credentials. Hitler had Jewish blood, after all. But those are good points, HOW did he keep it hidden given how into bloodlines his followers are?

Tashakinz

Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 10:15 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Re: Voldemort's bloodline - I always figured it was a case of he was soooo powerful that people overlooked the fact that he wasn't pure. If someone can kill you as soon as look at you, or conversely bring you along to the pinnacle of power, which route are you going to go?

Calamity

Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 10:31 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I have been trying to post this for over an hour and keep getting interrupted by work, darn it! This always happens to me.

Rissa: I'm drawing a blank as to whether we've ever learned how many people outside of Riddle’s inner circle at Hogwarts (with whom he first began using the name Voldemort) realized that it was Tom Jr. who became the Dark Lord. After all, he framed Hagrid for opening the CoS so most people probably never tagged Riddle as the heir of Slytherian. In OotP, when Harry confronted the DE with the fact that Voldemort’s own father was a Muggle, their reaction was one of outrage. Were they angry because Harry knew that their venerated leader was “imperfect” or because they thought Harry was lying about Voldemort? I don’t have my copy of the book with me so I can’t look that part over, but I’ll admit Bellatrix’s freak out had me confounded. And it’s almost unfathomable that Lucius Malfoy would ever deign to follow a “mudblood” (that is a nasty term, isn’t it?) so now you have me really confused!

Short answer...I don't know. Long answer...I suspect few people know that Voldemort was Riddle. Pureblood Ron only recognized the name because Filch made him polish Riddle's award and know-it-all Hermione surely would have made the connection if she had read about it. So that bit of important trivia doesn't seem to have made it into either the popular legend of Voldemort (which Ron would probably know) or the academic accounts of his reign of terror (which Hermione likely has read). Perhaps Voldemort simply lied about his family history so most of the DE might not know about his part-Muggle heritage.

That didn't answer your question, did it :) ?

P.S. I had always found Ginny kinda boring but her character really got interesting in OotP. Of course, I was always a Fred & George fan so her taking after them was terrific.

Faerygdds

Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 11:04 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I really don't think the DE know that Riddle is Voldemort. Dumbledore knows... Harry, Ron and Hermoine know, but I think the whole POINT of fashioning himself a new name was to erase who he was and "re-create" himself. I don't think the general population knows that Riddle is Voldemort. I doubt the DE stuck around after book 4 to thoroghly investigate the graveyard or anything. And then there's the concept of -- people believe what they want to believe.

If the DE KNEW that Voldemort was Riddle, and Riddle was a half-blood... there would more than likely be some trouble for him. I suspect many of the DEs wouldn't like it, but I truly don't think they know it. However, having said all that... I DO think that Harry was thought a liar when he revealed it. I do think that the thought of following a half-blood was outrageous and unthinkable to Bellatrix... and now that the cat is out of the bag... it will be VERY intereseting to see if any of the DEs or thier families follow up and end up confirming this "lie" told by Harry. :)

Tashakinz

Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 11:26 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Okay, but Wormtail at least has/had to know something's up with his bloodline because of the whole "bones of the father" ritual in Voldemort's rebirth. That was a muggle cemetery they were in...things that make you go hmmmm.

Twiggyish

Thursday, July 03, 2003 - 8:49 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Allie, I thought about that, too.

Why did Tom Riddle change his name to Voldemort? Was it to hide his muggle heritage?

I think Malfoy and other DE's choose to ignore the background. There is an irony there.

Rissa, I see Harry and Ginny together, too. It would make Harry an official member of the Weasley family.

Crazydog

Thursday, July 10, 2003 - 7:50 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Finally finished the book...

I really didn't like all the advance press that "A MAJOR CHARACTER WILL DIE". I felt it really took away from my full enjoyment of the book. With each dangerous situation, I kept thinking, this is it! I wish I hadn't heard of that and had been able to be surprised. We never had any indication that Cedric Diggory would die; it came as a great shock to me.

As it was, I was afraid it was going to be Prof. McGonagall. I didn't really like her all that much in the first few books, but after the movies came out, I now love her because Maggie Smith is one of my most favorite actresses. I wasn't really all that touched by Sirius's "death". I bet he comes back like Obi Wan Kenobi, and as Luna said, they are just beyond the veil.

I really don't think Lily and Snape had an affair so that Snape is Harry's father. Remember, this is a children's book, I just see no place for out-of-wedlock sex in this kind of material.

Umbridge? HATE her. I hope she gets sent to Azkaban for all of her abuses. I also thought all that unlimited power that was given to her was a little unrealistic. I think the rest of the teachers should have gotten together and done something about it.

Still hate both Malfoys. I can't understand why Lucius continues to have so much influence. Maybe now that everyone knows he is a death eater that he will be disgraced.

Don't really care for the Grawp storyline, I didn't think it added all that much.

I think in the end Harry will end up with Ginny and Ron will end up with Hermione. Then they will all be one family.

Nightcrawler

Sunday, August 03, 2003 - 9:41 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
ok I'm done with the book also.
I did not read it I got it on tape.

I don't think the DE's new about Voldemort famly.
I have nothing to back this up. thats just what I think by the way Bellatrix acked when Harry told them.

I'v got a ? to add.

Snape is a undercover DE for the order right?

how is it that Voldemort does not know this?

in book one he keeped trying to stop Quweral(spelling) from getting the stone and told him this to his face a few times.

1.st
Quweral was working for Voldemort and would have told him this

2nd.
as the book went on Voldemort was on the back of Quwerals head and would of heard Snape talking to Quweral. about trying to stop him from getting the stone.

3ed.
Harry heared Snape talking to Quweral when he was under the cloke.

so how is it that Voldemort does not know that Snape is not a fathful DE.

ether i missed something a long the way.

or Snape is really is a DE and is a spy for Voldemort.
if this is so Snape wouldn't of told the order that Harry was in need of help in this book.

I know Snape can hide what he is thinking. but like I said above. in book one he was trying to stop Voldemort from getting the stone and Voldemort was there to hear it.

I rest my case now and would like to hear what you all think.

I'v got all 5 books on tape. and I think i will just start over with one now to see if i misted anything.
NC

Jeep

Monday, August 04, 2003 - 6:59 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Nightcrawler - I think Voldemort does know that Snape (and others) are not faighful DEs.

In the Goblet of Fire, when Harry & Diggory were transported to the graveyard and the DEs were called there, didn't Voldemort state that one DE was too scared to come, one was unfaithful, etc. Indicating that he knew what each one was doing?

You make good points, too. I'm not sure why these instances are not consider in POF.

Calamity

Monday, August 04, 2003 - 9:35 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Nightcrawler: Snape is such an enigma it's practically impossible to figure out his story. I'm unconvinced that he has completely reformed - even if he longer supports Voldemort, he may simply be using Dumbledore for some yet-unknown reason of his own. That's getting off track though, isn't it, lol?

Harry has repeatedly been told that Snape renounced his DE days before Voldemort's fall. Let's pretend that's true. (I'm just saying "pretend" because we have no proof of that yet, only hearsay and circumstantial evidence.) It's possible Snape could have hidden his defection until the graveyard scene in GoF. When he did not return, Voldemort & the other DEs would have to know the truth.

You raise a good question about Quirrell. The only idea I have is that Voldemort never did speak to Snape while possessing Quirrell. If he did - and if Snape really was on Dumbledore's side - then wouldn't Snape have alerted Dumbledore? Perhaps Voldemort was too weak to communicate with anyone else until he had nearly sapped all of Quirrell's life from him. Or maybe he already suspected Snape was no longer on his side.


RE: the DEs knowing about Voldemort's family. We know some of Riddle's classmates knew he used the name Voldemort. And as Tashakinz pointed out, the muggle cemetary ought to have clued in the others (Wormtail probably already knew). Of course, Bellatrix was still in Azkaban at the time so maybe she doesn't know. I realized a while back that Lucius Malfoy might have already known the truth because it was he who slipped Riddle's diary to Ginny when they met in Diagon Alley.

Bookworm

Monday, August 04, 2003 - 8:33 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I just want to say that I have been reading the book a little here and there (between caring for 2 babies) and just finished it last night. I was so eager to get in here and read everyone's thoughts and was disappointed to see the thread had been clipped (probably just this weekend too) down to a few posts. If anyone would like to revoice their thoughts I would be so excited.

I realize that the clipping was a necessity to keep the board up and going, but I had been eager to get in here and was just disappointed last night when I could finally do so.

Mybbusername

Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 6:24 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Just a thought as to the mystery surrounding Snapes possible betrayal of either Voldemort or Dumbledore...if Sirius being able to become a big black dog was what kept the dementers from detecting his "non-human" emotions - then if Snape were (as has been speculated) able to transfigure himself into a bat (vampire) then would it be possible to turn on his bat like emotions to thwart Voldermorts ability to detect lies? Also, assuming all the while that he is able to transorm, he would be like Sirius, Rita Skeeter and others, that are not registered and therefore their abilitiy unknown.

Nightcrawler

Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 9:19 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
ok Snape could be aboule to turn in to a bat.

but, in the 1st. book when he was trying to stop Quirrell from geting the stone. Voldemort was right there to hear all that Snap was saying. and he had to know that Snape was trying to stop him from getting the stone and he was not a bat then.

I do think it's very posible that Snape can turn in to a bat. that could anser a lot of ?'s.

may be it's just an over site in the book.

then again there are 2 books to go and this might be anserd in them.

when is the next book do out?

Calamity

Thursday, August 14, 2003 - 11:03 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Bookworm: I am on my second (very leisurely) reading of OotP - have decided to pace myself because too much of Umbridge at a time just makes me want to reach into the book and throttle her, lol. That's no fun! (Or rational, for that matter.)

OotP was a very wintery book to me. Wasn't quite sure how I felt about the story when I first finished it. This second time around I am noticing some details that I missed before - just not sure I'll remember them all by the time I get around to the end again. I've certainly yapped enough about HP already but if you or anyone else is still interested in discussing the book, I'd love to read your thoughts.

Mybbusername: Interesting idea. Snape drives me up the castle wall so I've almost given up trying to figure him out!

Nightcrawler: Not sure if you asked the question in jest or not, but so far there is no word on when the next book will be out. My guess would be at least another year or two - perhaps much longer.

Mybbusername

Friday, August 15, 2003 - 6:21 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Calamity- I can relate to yapping to anyone who will listen about HP...I sometimes think that I like the wizarding world better than the real world...now if I could just figure out where to get house elves!!!

It seems like there is less discussion of OotP since its release than before, and while the book did clear up some of the mysteries, I think it opened up even more.

I, too, wanted to throttle Umbridge, and I loved the Weaslys-their charactors have really evolved-I'm not sure I get Cho Chang, and not sure that I trust her (she certainly has crummy friends), Neville rates right up there with the Weasleys in my book and I cannot wait to get to know him better in future books.

Finally, Minerva, one of my all time favorites, being attacked made me scream! I feel that she has a much larger part in all of this than anyone is giving her credit for...she waited all night on Pivot Drive, so right from the beginning she was involved with Harry...I think that while everyone is looking for a way to relate Harry to Dumbledore, JKR might have provided another (less obvious) relation.

And finally, Sirius...His charactor in this book was a shadier than I had expected, less likable to me, so I was not devastated when he died, but I am not sure that will be the end of him...

Jasper

Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 10:09 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
My two cents, I just finished the book and I was sorry that I didn't love it like the all the others.

It was good but I didn't enjoy it as thoroughly as the others. JK wrote a wonderful visual of the Umbridge character, I keep wondering who they are going to find to play her...I too wasn't devasted when Sirius departed. I did like how Neville became more of a main character but didn't really like how snarly she made Harry, I realize he's a teenager now and all that, but he was portrayed as a real pratt.

I love the Weasley's and also could have done without Grawp and the whole Cho thing. She explored that avenue as Harry was stuck on her last book, but was there not something developing last book between Hermione and Ron? That wasn't even touched on with the exception of the evident tension between the two at times.

I still look forward to the next installment and am rereading the first 4 books again.

Calamity

Thursday, August 21, 2003 - 3:57 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Hi Mybbusername: That's a good point about McGonagall - I hadn't thought much about what an important role she plays in Harry's life. But the way she stood up to Umbridge for him really impressed me. And yes, I'm also wondering if we've seen the last of Sirius. BTW, I think everyone wishes they could escape to a magical world every once in a while :) !

I’m approaching the end of my second reading of OotP. Had to put it aside because I’m almost at the part where Sirius falls and, well, I’m just not in the mood for that right now. Still not quite sure how I feel about the book overall but there were some elements that I really liked. In no particular order: the secret DADA club; the O.W.L.s. and career advice; Snape’s Worst Memory; the adventures of Fred & George; and finally, some very welcome character development for the second-stringers - most especially Ginny, Prof. McGonagall, and Neville - as well as the addition of the strange but intriguing Luna.

On this second reading, it seems much more obvious that Sirius was going to die. Didn’t he even tell Harry, “There are some things worth dying for.”, or something like that? Speaking of…when I first read Sirius’ death scene, I didn’t get as emotional as I was expecting to be. That detachment bothered me a bit but I just chalked it up to being preoccupied by turmoil in my own life at the time. However, I’ve since talked to others who felt the same way. I didn’t actually feel that broken-hearted until Harry found the two-way mirror.

Scattered thoughts about the book in general:
~I hadn’t really thought about Prof. Flitwick’s short stature before but Umbridge’s campaign against “half-breeds” now has me wondering if Flitwick might be something other than 100% human.
~Still think it’s odd that a Muggle family would have two siblings turn out to be wizards so I wonder what plans JKR has for the Creevey brothers.
~James’ levitation of Snape gave me an uncomfortable flashback to the parade of DEs tormenting that Muggle family at the Quidditch World Cup.
~Percy…for some reason I just doubt he’s being controlled by the imperious curse, and anyway I think it would be a cheat if JKR did use that excuse. The letter he wrote Ron was a puzzler though. Wonder if he will reconcile with Arthur and Molly or, like Sirius, remain estranged from his parents? Either way, I get the feeling that Percy has a big target on his back now. JKR could have him find redemption by sacrificing himself for Harry et al or, on a more depressing note, end up suffering Regulus’ fate.
~Did I feel bad for Snape when Harry caught glimpses of his unhappy youth (paralleling Harry’s own isolation and pain growing up)? Yes. Do I still hate him? Yes. In fact, I’m now suspicious of Snape’s motives even more than before. Even if he is no longer a supporter of Voldemort, he seems to have his own agenda, which may be quite different than Dumbledore’s.
~Draco’s always been malicious to Harry but for all the hostility between those two, it’s never amounted to much more than taunts, detentions, and a few hexes here and there. But in the last two books, I think Draco will be out for blood.
~Lupin - was so looking forward to his return and felt more than little let down at how dull his part was in this book.
~Umbridge’s ever-expanding powers did seem a bit absurd but they were effective at creating drama so I have to let that pass. (I gasped when Harry was banned from quidditch, lol.) And I was truly horrified by her sadistic take on giving students lines to write for detention, which proved JKR can still shock me.
~Why couldn’t they burn Mrs. Black’s portrait? The family tree had a permanent sticking charm on it too but Sirius and a few others’ names were burned off of it. The tapestry also got me wondering whether the Potters were a pureblood family. I always assumed they were but maybe they weren't. That could mess up the idea that Harry’s the last heir of Gryffindor though.

Oh gosh, the more I write, the more I think of, but that’s plenty for now! I didn't even get to comment on Dumbledore's horrible miscalculations.

Weenerlobo

Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 9:36 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
My head is spinning!!! I came in here to see what everyone was discussing, since I haven't been around for a while, and now I need a nap and a flow chart!

Everyone makes such good points and the way that JKR writes, almost anything could be possible. I mean to re-read the book, and I think I'll start on that real soon.

McGonagall has always been a favorite character of mine (Maggie Smith is perfect) and I've always looked on her and Dumbledore as Harry's Wizard World "Mom and Dad."

Just as a goofy aside, I recently bought a necklace from a friend who makes jewelry. It has a small silver owl for a pendant. My own personal Hedwig!

Honey51

Wednesday, August 27, 2003 - 4:34 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I read OofP in June. Now I'm listening to it on tape. I have done this with all the books and find I really pick up things I missed while reading (of course I read through them so fast that I miss a lot anyway).

Ginlei

Saturday, November 15, 2003 - 12:48 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I have read Pheonix now three times (working on my fourth! I get the impression Hermoine knows how she feels about Ron but Ron is completely lost. I don't think Ginny and Harry will end up together... Maybe Ginny and Neville?? There's soemthing about Snape that is just beyond understanding. Dumberlore's reactions and decisions make me wonder about his relationship with McGonall and Harry. They have never said anything about the Potter's being pure bloods and where is Harry's father side of the family now? Are they all dead? Nothing has been mentioned about this either. JKR has introduced serval second and thrid stringer characters and hints that they have something coming up to do with their characters. Maybe I am reading too much into this books. Umbridge's hatred of "half-breeds" and her physical description makes me wonder about her own hertiage. Just some random thoughts from this reader

Sillycalimomma

Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 3:02 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Well, I sat on this book since June 29th! I was slowly reading it inbetween others because I knew I would not be able to handle the loooonnnnngggg wait for the next one! Finished it last night. I have to say though that this one was not my favorite. I was so upset through most of the book and the way Harry was being treated and that darn Umbridge character! Ugh! I too was dissapointed that I already knew the spoiler that a major character was going to die. It seemed like my attention was focused mainly on that. There were so many times I thought "this is it!" and it wouldn't be. I feel so bad for Harry that he lost the closest thing to a parent. I am glad however that he has more answers-although I thought he should have been told the truth all along! Can't wait for the next one!