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Archive through December 19, 2003

The TVClubHouse: Archives: Movies & Library 2003 -2004: Movies: May 2003 - April 2004: Lord of the Rings - The Return of the King: Archive through December 19, 2003 users admin

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Reiki

Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 4:47 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Here is a bit of the backstory for anyone who has questions about how Arwen can choose mortality. Not every elf has this choice.

Elrond (father of Arwen) and his twin brother Elros were the sons of Earendil (a mortal hero of the 1st age) and Elwing (an elven princess). The Valar (the gods of Middle Earth) allowed the brothers to choose their fate. Elros choose to be a mortal man, but was granted a life span of 500 years. Elrond choose to be an immortal elf.

Elros became the king of his people (the Edain) and ruled for many years. Elrond (called Half-Elven) settled Rivendell and married Celebrian the daughter of Celeborn and Galadriel. They had 3 children: Elladan, Elrohir, and Arwen. Did you know that Galadriel is Arwen's grandmother? Elrond's children were given the same choice. To be an immortal elf or a mortal human. Arwen follows her heart and become mortal. It is unclear what path her siblings follow, but they do not take the boat with Elrond at the end of the Third Age, they stick around and help Aragorn and Arwen rebuild Gondor.

The descendants of Elros were given no choice - they would be mortal humans but would have expanded life spans. Eventually this decreased as they intermarried with other humans. Through many generations Aragorn is a descendant of Elros. That's why he has such a long life. A scene on the extended DVD establishes Aragorn as being 87 years old at the time of the Ring.

Calamity

Saturday, December 13, 2003 - 6:04 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Thank you for all the info, Reiki! My dad has the Lost Tales (or is it Unfinished Tales?) but I don't know anything about them. He has The Silmarillion as well. I once saw that book described as being sort of the Bible of Middle-Earth but don't know if that's accurate or not.

The only other Tolkien I've read is Farmer Giles of Ham but someone just gave me a pb copy of Roverandom to pass the time while looking after my kitty cat. I guess it's a kid's book but that's about all my brain can handle right now anyway, lol!

The jigsaw puzzle my dad had was of Middle-Earth. Well, part of it. I always thought it was kinda scary looking actually. If I remember it correctly, the artwork was somewhat surreal. I think the puzzle image was actually part of a bigger picture.

BTW, EW has given RotK a glowing rave review.

Hippyt

Saturday, December 13, 2003 - 6:12 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
So,in some way Aragorn and Arwen are related? Ok,I'm confused.

Mocha

Saturday, December 13, 2003 - 6:35 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Yep very distant cousins. I love elf stories.

Reiki

Saturday, December 13, 2003 - 8:25 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Hippy you have asked about Elven immortality and I have been thinking on how best to explain it without getting just telling the entire history of Arda, the world that Middle Earth is part of.

When Eru/Illuvatar (god) created his children (Elves and Men) he gave them different gifts. Elves were given the gift of "immortality".

Elves inhabit both the physical world and the spiritual world at the same time. When Frodo wore the ring he saw the Elves in their spirit aspect - glowing with light. The body/spirit of an elf is bound to world until its end but their bodies can be destroyed. This disembodiment was extremely unpleasant. The end of the world is the end of elves body and spirit.

When the body has been killed their "spirit" does not pass beyond the world. It is summonded to the Halls of Mandos to wait until the Valar (demi-gods) judge him/her ready to be reimbodied. They are given a new body but retain all their memories. The wait can be very long especially if they had done any bad/evil deeds that the Valar wanted to punish.

They could then decide to remain in the realms of the Valar where time passed very slowly in keeping with their nature, or to return to Middle Earth. Most elves decide to stay in Valar having grown weary of Middle Earth were everything but them grows old and dies. Even in Valinor they must grow weary of life after a few hundred millenium. If a man were to be allowed into Valinor he would still grow old and die, but he would be living in paradise at the time.

Eru gave Men the Gift of Death. They would grow old and die, but their spirit was not bound to the earth and after a time of recollection in the Halls would pass into out of the world to a place unknown to the Elves. The Valinor told the elves that men would join in on the "Second Music of the Ainur" (the rebirth of the world). The fate of the Elves after the end of the world are unknown to all.

BTW - Hobbit are a kind of men and are subject to the same "gift" of death. Dwarves were not originally one of the Children of Eru and could not share in this gift. They die, but do not pass out of the world. They go to a special place in the halls and are sometimes reincarnated in a future generation, but most of them just hang out in the halls until the end of time.

Yankee_In_Ca

Monday, December 15, 2003 - 3:15 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
We had our LOTR: The Two Towers screening at our place yesterday, and now I'm really excited to be seeing the Return of the King on Wednesday!!!!

Yippee!

Hippyt

Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 10:08 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
The unkindest cut
Where's Saruman? Lee's villain axed from third `Rings'
By ANTHONY BREZNICAN
Associated Press
LOS ANGELES -- In The Fellowship of the Ring, Christopher Lee appeared as the traitorous elder wizard Saruman, whose snowy white beard and robe hid his black-hearted intentions for Middle-earth.

In The Two Towers, Saruman watched his power fade as enormous walking trees laid waste to his army of ugly orcs and trapped him in his stone skyscraper.

The final installment, The Return of the King, reveals that Saruman is ... well, where is he? Certainly not in the movie.

All of the 81-year-old Lee's closing scenes were cut from The Lord of the Rings trilogy, a move that has angered thousands of hard-core fans and may confuse the casual moviegoer who wonders why one of the story's main villains has simply disappeared.

In the books by J.R.R. Tolkien, Saruman escapes his tower and overtakes the Shire, a peaceful Hobbit homestead. His death comes at the end of the books, when Frodo and company try to eject him from their village.

That particular subplot was never filmed by Jackson. Instead, he shot an alternate climax for the wicked wizard character that he intended to place at the end of The Two Towers.

But that didn't work out, either.

"It seemed like an anticlimax," Jackson said. After that film's elaborate battle sequence in the mountain stronghold of Helm's Deep, the director said he felt audiences would want "to finish that film off as quickly as we could."

The seven-minute sequence that ends Saruman's story line was held for use near the beginning of The Return of the King, which opens Wednesday.

"As it is, it didn't work in the theatrical cut of Return of the King, either, because it felt like we were finishing off last year's movie instead of jumping in and setting up the tension for the new film," Jackson said.

Instead, the characters mention perfunctorily that Saruman is powerless -- then they move on to the rest of the story.

That explanation hasn't satisfied many fans. An Internet petition asking Jackson to reinstate the Saruman footage has gathered more than 40,000 signatures.

"I believe this cut will hurt The Return of the King," wrote petition founder Matt Shuster. "Please, Peter Jackson, at least consider putting this scene back into the theatrical version, and give us Saruman fans/haters some much-needed closure."

Shuster has since posted an addendum, acknowledging it was too late to change the film. "Signing the petition now will only serve to breed ill will against the filmmakers, and that is not my intent."

Jackson promised fans that the sequence would be included in the extended DVD edition of The Return of the King, which is expected to be released next fall.

"It will ultimately take its place as part of the greater package," Jackson said. "The scene is perfectly fine. Christopher is good in the scene, and there's nothing wrong with it."

Lee, who also plays the villain Count Dooku in last year's Star Wars: Episode II -- Attack of the Clones, has appeared in about 250 movies. The 6-foot-4 actor is best known for his suave, calculating evildoers in the Hammer horror films of the 1960s and is ranked along with Bela Lugosi.

Ocean_Islands

Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 2:22 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Wow Reiki I didn't realize you knew so much about everything LOTR. Thanks for telling us some and don't hesitate to tell us more.

I am looking forward to ROTK which I am seeing tomorrow night. I've read the trilogy nearly five times so I can't wait to see it realized.

Also I think Frodo is about 50 in the book, isn't he?

Spygirl

Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 3:12 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Ocean, I need someone to go with me to the show! Wanna go with?

No one here is into LOTR, so I'll be going alone, I think.

Ocean_Islands

Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 3:18 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Catch a plane and you can come with me tomorrow! :)

Calamity

Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 3:26 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
O_I: I think you're right - he was ~50. I wish I had my books here but iirc, Frodo was 33 at Bilbo's 111th birthday/going away party at the beginning of FotR. But he doesn't set out to destroy the one Ring for many years. I have no memory of how old Sam or Merry were (or even if that was ever mentioned in the LotR text)...Pippin was the youngest, almost 29, I think.

We saw the SE of TTT yesterday - more people at the theater this time. I didn't know if I'd be able to go but as of right now things are holding steady so we're planning to see RotK tomorrow as well.

Ocean_Islands

Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 3:36 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I remember that it is about 18 years between Frodo's getting the ring and Gandalf coming back to see him about it.

Spygirl

Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 3:45 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Dang. I wish I had frequent flyer miles! :(

Ketchuplover

Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 3:53 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
(((spygirl))) :)

Reiki

Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 5:37 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Bilbo and Frodo shared a birthday. The birthday party at the start of the book is both Bilbo's 111th Birthday, but also Frodo's 33rd. By reaching his 111th birthday (called his eleventy-first birthday) Bilbo either surpassed or matched the age of the Old Took, who I believe had been one of the oldest hobbits who ever lived. 33rd was important for Frodo, because it is the age when a hobbit reaches maturity (so roughly age 21 in human years). I believe when Frodo leaves the Shire he is the same age Bilbo was at the beginning of the Hobbit.

Last January 3rd at 9 pm GMT, fans of Tolkien’s around the world raised their glass to honor the Professor on what would have been his eleventy-first birthday.

I would go back and refresh my memories but I am determined not to re-read the books before seeing the final movie.

I won't be seeing the movie until Thursday. I don't know how I will be able to stand it. I think I have talked myself into taking Thursday off too and heading down the city early so I can see it earlier :) The weather reports for Thursday are just an excuse.


Yankee_In_Ca

Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 1:37 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Going tonight -- movie's at 8:10, but we're getting in line at 6PM. Have 6 friends joining us! I can't wait.

Ryn

Thursday, December 18, 2003 - 9:21 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Saw it last night - liked it - but MAN - 3 hours 20 minutes - lol

Won't spoil it for anyone - but I will say I was "happy" with the treatment it was given being as I am one of those who was comparing it to the book at every turn. its not perfect, but it could have been A LOT worse - Peter Jackson did an excellent job.

Ryn

Thursday, December 18, 2003 - 9:35 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Just read some of the above comments and I would like to clarify the age thing....

Bilbo left the shire after his 111th birthday party - then in the book - something in the neighborhood of 20-25 years pass before Gandalf returns to tell Frodo to leave the Shire. Thus Frodo is in his 50/60's (or thereabouts) and then Sam/Pippin and Merry are indeed in their 20/30's (they were youngsters to Frodo - and they had observered him over time and were aware of the ring because Frodo did use it from time to time to avoid people he didn't want to talk to). Frodo still would look young though because of the powers of the ring.

So after the LOTR main story Bilbo ends up passing the "Old Took" in age because he reaches the age of 134 or so (not 111 as listed above).

The real confusing part for those that never read the book is that 20 or so year gap between Bilbo leaving the Shire and Frodo leaving. During that time in the novel Gandalf is running all around discovering info about the ring, Golumn is tracked by Aragon and Gandalf working together, etc etc etc - there is a lot that goes on during that time that Peter Jackson had to omit because there was just no way to include it all.

btw - my local library has the 3 LOTR book on audio CD - un-abridged - its an excellent reading and I would reccomend it for anyone that wants to read LOTR but has more car time than reading time.

Ocean_Islands

Thursday, December 18, 2003 - 10:04 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I saw it and loved it. Some small quibbles but nothing major. I think I realized I had more of my own vision of the ending and how it looked than the beginning.

I won't know what I really think of it until I see it again. I was kind of thinking of the comparison with the book a lot during this first viewing and holding my breath that he wasn't going to screw it up.

I have to say I am not sure why they introduced the palantir the way they did, it kind of appears out of nowhere. It could have easily been explained.

Ryn

Thursday, December 18, 2003 - 10:51 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Just to update - in the novel it was about 17 years between when Bilbo left and Frodo left (the Shire).

Yankee_In_Ca

Thursday, December 18, 2003 - 11:35 am   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Ryn and Ocean -- I'm heading out for a much-needed vacation right now, but wanted to say that I saw it last night and agreed with everything you both said!

Even though it was REALLY long (maybe too long for the theater -- we had an 8:10 showing and didn't get out until midnight), I need to see it again to be able to say which my favorite scenes are, etc. I enjoyed it very much, there were certain things that bothered me, but in all it was good.

Ketchuplover

Thursday, December 18, 2003 - 3:21 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgh. are you people trying to drive me insane? the movie was too long (waaaaaa waaaaaaaaaa waaaaaaa) were you charged by the hour? Look at it this way-you get more for your money :)

ps. The movie was beautiful :)

Reiki

Friday, December 19, 2003 - 12:54 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
I saw it yesterday. I was prepared to be very disappointed and instead I was very moved. One of my favorite scenes was King Theoden's speech about the Red Dawn as the Rohhirim prepared to ride into battle. This part of the book always makes me cry too and the movie delivered. Glad that Sam got to be there hero that book loves know he was. I will be seeing this movie again and I cannot wait for the EE DVD!

Reiki

Friday, December 19, 2003 - 1:00 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
Thanks Ryn for clearing up the ages and what not. Like I said I was waiting until after seeing the movie to read the books again. I will be doing so soon. Only question is am I gonna start with the Silmarillion or with the Hobbit. LOL.

Calamity

Friday, December 19, 2003 - 4:09 pm   Edit Post Move Post Delete Post View Post    
****Return of the King Spoilers****

I saw this Wednesday as well and thought it was beautiful, exciting, and moving. Simply unforgettable, really. It may not have been perfect but it was gloriously close. Sadly for me, my memories of this film will always be a bit bittersweet but that’s a different matter.

Just a few quick comments for now; I’ll post a more detailed review later, when my heart is more into it.

- Proving that deviations from book-to-film are not always a bad thing, I thought the sequence showing the signal fires being light along the mountain range between Gondor and Rohan was stunning and got a lump in my throat when Théoden told Aragorn that Rohan would answer the call for help.

- I slunk down in my seat and held my jacket up to my face during the parts with Shelob so I could see a “halo” image of the screen without having to face the whole horror. It worked pretty well. There was a girl sitting alone in the row in front of us who did the same thing and I felt an instant bond with her.

- I’m also glad that the other Hobbits got their turns in the spotlight. I always liked Pippin in the books and thought the movies made him out to be too much of a buffoon but RotK corrected that image a great deal. Sean Astin, playing Sam, quite broke my heart a few times. He really was wonderful.

- Still enjoyed the banter between Legolas and Gimli but wish they would have had a little more screen time. Nice that Legolas again got a chance to show off his acrobatic skills though.

Oh, and not to veer OT but some movie reviewers really tick me off. I read one that solely focused on the "sexual imagery" of Frodo & Sam's fight with Shelob as well as Éowyn's fight with the Black Rider. It was written in that smug "C'mon we all know what this is really about." tone. That's what this reviewer got out of the film??!! And another critic struggled to make the trilogy into a political allegory. Sigh. I don't know, but for me these books/films have always been a refuge - an escape from our own world-gone-mad - and I'd rather not drag current events into the story.

I keep hearing the music in my head btw, and the closing credits were lovely. Guess that's enough for now.

Reiki, thank you again for the background info on the Elves. It intrigued me enough that I now want to read more about Middle-Earth. I also plan to see RotK again and am very much looking forward to the SE! And even more now than before, I hope Peter Jackson does get the chance to write/direct The Hobbit.