Archive through October 16, 2003
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TV ClubHouse: Archive: Any Baseball Fans: Archive through October 16, 2003

Tabbyking

Wednesday, October 15, 2003 - 10:44 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
and that all-important statement: 'had alou made the second out'...(because if he hadn't caught it, it would have merely been a strike.) we don't know if he would have caught it. the fan who touched the ball was one of several who reached for it. i don't see anyone faulting them.
imagine if it were your husband or son or neighbor...it's easy for many to blame some stranger for the cubs' loss, when it was the players who lost. they played well. very well. they went to the 7th game. they lost. there are bad calls, things thrown on the field, bad wind, sun in your eyes, shadows in your eyes...things happen.

Beachcomber88

Wednesday, October 15, 2003 - 10:55 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Diehard Chicago fans know who Leon Durham is. Any serious baseball fan in 1986 knows who Bill Buckner is. And Jeffrey Maier turning Derek Jeter's flyball into a homerun is a part of Yankee lore.

Tabbyking, I respect your opinion, but if you are not familiar with the above mentioned well-documented October moments, then it is clear that we are trying to have a discussion on two completely different levels.

Yes, the Cubs themselves lost. They were simply outplayed tonight. And Steve Bartman had nothing to do with it tonight. But what will this series be remembered for? I'll bet my entire life savings and all my future earnings that even years from now, it will be the Foul Ball Fan. He is now a part of the sad history of the Chicago Cubs, whether he likes it or not.

Tabbyking

Wednesday, October 15, 2003 - 11:02 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
i am saying maybe the cub fans should get over it. so what if the others you mentioned screwed up or whatever. no wonder the cubs can't move ahead ;>)

this series will be remembered for the unforgiving fans who blamed an innocent man IMO. he had nothing to do with it last night, either, except to those who wanted to see it that way. i can't change that. this man cannot even go about his every day life and that is a travesty.

Azlen

Wednesday, October 15, 2003 - 11:59 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
The "foul ball fan" is not the first scapegoat in sports and he won't be the last. There are many reasons why championship games are won and lost, but people will always remember the scapegoat. Unfortunately for many players who have received this label, it ruined their lives. Donnie Moore, who was the scapegoat for the '86 Angels, was never the same after giving the Red Sox their second win in the ALCS. Yes, their second win. The series didn't even end at that point, the Angels had to lose two more times, but Moore was still the scapegoat. It changed him so much that he committed suicide a couple years later.
Is it a sad comment on sports in America? Yes of course, but unfortunately for the "foul ball fan" it doesn't make it any less true.

Ocean_Islands

Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 05:17 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Personally, I don't believe in the curse. However, I do believe in jinxes.

The 8th inning in that game was jinxed because the man leading the 7th inning stretch sing-a-long called the Cubs the "champs." That is enough to jinx a team -- right after that they gave up 8 runs in the 8th inning. It had nothing to do with the foul ball.

I did notice in last night's game the song leader made a point of saying the Cubbies instead of what had happened the previous night.

Jagger

Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 05:42 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I wished the Cubbies had won the game, but that's life, now they need to move on and look forward to next year, us Minnesota sports fans are use to that saying.

Congradulations to the Marlins on playing some excellent ball.

Congradulations to the Red Sox's for pulling out game 6 yesterday.

Aus10

Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 05:54 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I've got to agree with Beachcomber here. Only a lifetime cubbie fan can understand the pain we are feeling. I remember thinking how one more win to erase the feelings of so many years. I still can picture in my mind, so many players standing in Cubs uniforms....Sandberg, Grace, Dawson, Sutcliffe, Cey, Santo, and of course I knew that Harry was up above, cheering away. I can't help it...I've got a whole in my heart this morning and still can't think about the whole situation without a little stomach ache setting in. Few sporting events can evict such feelings, this NCLS, the 1992 NCAA Eastern Regional Final, and watching the Olympics where the USA lost the mens basketball final to the USSR(can't remember the year). :(

Goddessatlaw

Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 06:03 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I suppose I could write off this thing of being a Cubs fan as an abusive relationship where we love them and they don't love us back. But I've thought about it, and am convinced the truth is much more insidious. By definition, a Cubs fan is a masochist (see details in Beachcomber's and Aus10's posts). We crave the pain. By losing, the Cubs gave us exactly what we wanted all along - exquisite torture. We've just gotten so used to the chronic level of suffering that they decided to give us a little thrill by amping the torture this year. I am happy now. I got what I wanted. My psychological and emotional distress is so complete that it's reached the physical level - a skull-cracking headache. Thank you, St. Harry - you knew this about us all along. Thank you Dusty and the Boys - you are true sadists. We are in a sick and twisted relationship, but it works. Maybe next year you could just slide rusty fishhooks under our nails, hook them up to the Wrigley Field light pole generators and electrocute us. Same result, but it would save us all a whole lot of time.

Ocean_Islands

Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 06:04 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Ditto, Aus 10. I've been a Cubs fan for many years, being from Chicago. Now living in New York it's sickening to hear the Yankee fans bellyache all the time about their complaint of the day. I have to say that is one thing you do not hear in Chicago.

And GAL I don't think it's as bad as that. The Cubs went far this year, but not all the way. Look at the Red Sox -- they've gone all the way plenty of times but never got the prize -- and so often against the Yanks. That has to be worse.

Goddessatlaw

Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 06:15 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I have to say one thing, OI, I would like to root for the BoSox now but I can't because, like any narcissistic baseball fan, I believe I have the power and by rooting for the BoSox I am condemning them to lose. So please, BoSox fans, understand that I'm doing you a favor by being neutral during the remaining games, but when you win it all I'll be jumping for joy right along with you. Sigh. Thanks for trying to make me feel better, OI. On to next year.

Ladytex

Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 06:16 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I'm sad today.

Tabbyking

Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 07:19 am EditMoveDeleteIP
i can understand the 'pain of loss', i cannot understand blaming a fan for what seems to be ongoing problem for the cubs!

Sasman

Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 07:24 am EditMoveDeleteIP
GAL, the baseball god knows all and that includes knowing that cubbie fans will secretly be rooting for the bosox. so you might as well root for them openly!!

Grooch

Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 07:38 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Marlins

Bronxie

Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 07:56 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I guess it's not an original thought but is it possible this so-called curse has caused a defeatist attitude among fans and players? Sub-consciously of course, but putting extreme pressure on the team. It's really a dilemma.
I was just thinking, Chicago is such a great town, so full of energy and vitality, could it be your news media that starts publicizing the "curse" each Spring?...and then the pressure begins and spreads. (I bet little kids in the Little League all know about the "curse")...it becomes a self-fullfilling prophecy.

Wendo, you're such a consummate fan. Why not start a PR campaign right now. Have everyone write to the papers and TV/radio.
"From this day forward, any paper or sports commentator who uses the word "curse" will be publicly labeled an ANTI-CUBS PROMOTER.
You expend so much energy and effort in rooting for your team...why not start now by telling the media, "We're mad as hell, and we're not gonna take it any longer, etc."
It's just a thought but "better to light a candle in the dark then trip and CURSE the darkness".

Tabbyking

Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 08:16 am EditMoveDeleteIP
"curses! you're right!"

Badabing

Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 08:19 am EditMoveDeleteIP
My 2 cents: The Cubs just lost to a better team, who took advantage of every little opportunity that was given to them by luck, weather, umpire calls, strikes & balls and what not.

The Cubs had as good a team as the Marlins, but as in any other sports, "the puck just did'nt bounce for them" "the ball just did'nt roll for them" "the wind just did'nt blow their way" etc....

Crazydog

Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 08:21 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I don't really believe in the Billy Goat Curse. It's just bad luck that has come over the years. But the incident that happened in the 8th inning of Game 6 will forever be linked to that "curse" and the Cubs' woes. Is it fair to blame the Cubs' loss on Steve Bartman? Probably not entirely. But he definitely changed the momentum of the game. It's true that they had a chance to win in Game 7, but they had all the added pressure. They were up 3-1 in the series and oh no what if they lose. Losing Game 6 was critical.

Steve Bartman will forever be remembered in Chicago. Whether it is fair to blame him or not, he is the scapegoat that many will associate with 2003.

Tabbyking, I echo what others have said above that if you do not live in Chicago, you can't really understand how heartbreaking this loss is. You don't know the pains and anguishes that we suffered through when the ball went through Leon Durham's leg.

It is easy for you to tell people to "get over it" when you have no comprehension of how many years fans in Chicago were waiting for the moment. Cub fans are very passionate about their team. Today, many are probably feeling like their favorite pet died. For you to simply say "get over it" when our team lost is IMO just as insensitive as telling someone to "get over it" when their pet dies. And before you tell me that it's a faulty comparison and you can't understand how I can leap to that.... you're right. You can't understand, because you haven't had your heart broken by the Cubs for decades.

They were so close. Last year they finished 30 games out of first place. It was so improbable that they were going to be in the World Series. Everyone in the city believed.

Sigh. Wait til next year, indeed.

Jagger

Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 08:34 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Being an avid sports fan I know what all the Chicagoians are going through, they want so badly for their team to make it to that big game and to finally win it all. Us in Minnesota use to think the same way, we would make it to the playoffs and than chock, well we finally won the big prize in Baseball so that feeling has finally surcomed, but we still have it with our football team, made it to the big dance numerous time but never managed to finish the dance.

I know what you mean GAL about not wanting to root for the Red Sox, so far every team I have rooted for this season is out of the running. So I won't cheer for the Sox either.

Tabbyking

Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 08:41 am EditMoveDeleteIP
it doesn't matter where you live, you can be heartbroken over a loss. i am saying to quit blaming the fan. that's it. it just seems some cubs fans want to blame their losses throughout history on specific people. well, guess what? ALL losses for EVERY team in EACH sport have to do with specific people! wow! an ump, a catcher, a pitcher.......every single game that is lost, whether it be regular season play or a play-off or a world series game, comes down to a person, and what he or she didn't do. i just don't understand thinking the fan gave up 8 runs! if he is truly responsible for the cubs' loss, he needs to be paid all the big bucks their other players are paid!
we all know how many years the cubs 'waited for it'. we all know how many years every other city waited for the bulls not to get it! sports happen!

Aus10

Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 09:40 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Crazydog hit the nail on the head! It's all about momentum. And our fans "goof" changed the momentum. If indeed as we've heard players say, "Our fans support really helped", than why in fact are we questioning a fans ability to hurt as well? I'm not saying that 8 runs was due to the fan, but it sure did play a part in them. I've seen more momumental momentum changes due to things a lot less invasive.

Mak1

Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 09:52 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Cubs fans: I don't live in Chicago but I feel your pain. As a Red Sox fan, I've felt the same pain a few times myself. I'm hoping tonight won't be another of those times. Luckily, hope springs eternal and things look better in the Spring. It still hurts, though, whenever I see replays of the Sox '86 loss. One strike away, just one strike....In the end, in a great evenly-matched series, that's what it comes down to.

It's funny, I was expecting opposite results yesterday - a Sox loss and a Cubs win.

Tabbyking

Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 09:56 am EditMoveDeleteIP
invasive? sigh....

Beachcomber88

Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 10:14 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Crazydog, I agree with you entirely. Cub fans are the best fans in the world. For 95 years, this team has gone without a world championship. Yet year in and year out, Wrigley Field is packed with diehard fans. This despite all the knowledge that the team hasn't won in so so long. What other city has this kind of support? Perhaps Boston, but I would not know, since I have never lived there. Miami certainly doesn't. Just until one month ago, the Marlins were drawing less than 15000 fans per game. Yet now that they're in the playoffs, the fickle Miami fans pack the stadium to the tune of 60000 plus. Cub fans do not jump on the bandwagon - and that's because we have never jumped off.

Tabbyking, clearly you are not a Cub fan. So Crazydog, Aus10, and I don't expect you to understand how we feel right now. But that's ok. You are entitled to your opinion. Just as we are entitled to remember this series for the Foul Ball Fan. It may not be fair, it may not be right, but it will forever be remembered in the history of the Chicago Cubs.

Grooch

Thursday, October 16, 2003 - 10:37 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Beachcomber, after the last world series, Waybe Huizinga went and dismantled the whole entire team. It was heart breaking and a lot of fans were lost because of that. They better not do that again this year to us!!!!!