Archive through October 12, 2003
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TV ClubHouse: Archive: Any Baseball Fans: Archive through October 12, 2003

Bob2112

Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 07:51 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Manny Ramirez was the instigator in 4th inning on a pitch that was not close to hitting him. If anyone was thrown out, it should have been him.

I love Zimmer from his days with the Cubs, but he has no business rushing on to the field, seeking out the opposing teams pitcher and trying to hit him with a left hook. I watched it over and over in slow motion and it is clear that Zimmer was trying to hit Pedro Martinez in the head and Martinez side stepped the swing and pushed Zimmer to the ground. Martinez then walked away from the incident. He did not attack Zimmer or even throw a punch.

News of a second incident in that game are just coming out:

Two Yankees will be charged with assaulting a Fenway Park worker who was cheering for the Red Sox in the New York bullpen during the AL championship series Saturday night, police said.

Police spokesman Michael McCarthy did not release the names of the players, but Red Sox spokesman Charles Steinberg said Jeff Nelson and Karim Garcia were the players involved.

Reader234

Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 07:52 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
OK, I just want to say that when or why ever would a pitch go to a players head? Give me a break, lose pitch my ________!!! There should be a rule, period. This insane attitude that clears benches has got to stop!!

BTW Zimmer did charge him, and I (*cough) agree with Mak, he deserved to defend himself... but did he have to grab the head of a man that has a metal plate in it? Did he realize the man was 70+ yrs of age... again, I say it goes back to the rules of baseball, as long as you allow these stupid melees to occur, you get what you ask for.

Another reason why I like hockey!! Penalty boxes!! Makes a big difference when you are 1 to 2 men down, when there are all stars, or playoffs, you rarely see 'boxing'... and I think the penalties are stiff enough there no longer are bench clearing melee's...

(background, my beautiful sensitive hearing impaired kids, play hockey!! Its easy to blame hockey, I blame the media!! The media perpetuates fights, so fights are to some extent encouraged... I can even believe as boring as baseball usually is, bench clearing bouts ALWAYS make the news, so it is encouraged!! The fines compared to salaries seem insignificant...

*stepping down on soap box, I hadnt realize I was on... wow!!

Bob2112

Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 07:56 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Did Zimmer realize he was a 73 year old man with a plate in his head when he attacked Martinez?

<...remembers Marlin pitch that went into dugout in game 2...>

Bob2112

Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 07:57 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
... and another thing!

Cubs Win!!!
Bob

Babyruth

Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 07:58 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
YAY!!!!

Reader234

Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 08:03 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
LOL, good point Bob!!

Unbelievable...WTG CUBS!!!

I love the signs!! Its just amazing!! Maybe that is why the weather is hot here... wonder what the temperature in Hell is these days!

Bob2112

Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 08:07 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Hell Freezing Over!

Tishala

Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 09:23 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Here is what I saw. Again, I don't have a dog in this fight:

Pedro throws at Garcia's head and hits him in the back after having a couple runs scored on him in the 4th.

At the end of the inning, Pedro and Garcia exchange a series of "F- you"s to each other. Yankee catcher Jorge Posada, from the Yankee's dugout, also yells at Pedro and Pedro responds by pointing to his head and saying "I'll throw at your head too" (or words to that effect). He does this for quite a while. For so long the umpires should have seen it and warned him (or thrown him out right then).

In the bottom of the 4th, Clemens throws a high and slighly inside pitch to Ramirez and another imbroglio begins. Ramirez refuses to drop his bat. yadda yadda yadda. After the game, the Boston manager admits that the pitch wasn't inside, which is what he thought at the time.

Everyone converges in the middle of the field. Zimmer, who not only has a plate in his head, but has also had two knee replacements (and is 72) approaches (charges? I don't think one charges after two knee replacements) Pedro, who throws him to the ground by the head. Did Zimmer look like he was going to hit Pedro? I didn't see that. Maybe he did; if he did, both should be thrown out.

Everyone on Boston is now afraid of Clemens, who is known as a headhunter anyhow. If Pedro wants to play--probably a bad choice--Roger has no compunction, based on his history, of retaliating. They actually BACK OFF the plate (ESPN showed this) so they won't be his target. Pedro's antics effectively make Boston's offense DEFENSIVE and they cannot hit him.

Anyhow, I don't like Clemens at all--I remember Piazza!--but Clemens didn't do anything wrong and Pedro did. I think he needs a fine and probably something more.

Zeno39

Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 09:34 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I agree there that he needs to be fined. I also could tell that the umpires were clearly biased in favor of Boston. Never again will I ever think good thoughts of Boston and the people there who love to egg on fights. Children, all of them!!

Hypermom

Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 09:52 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Can the Marlins just lay down, roll around in bread crumbs and jump into the skillet already? lol

27 more outs with a win..hopefully...then the World Series!

Go CUBBIES!!

Jefe

Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 10:03 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Okay I,m putting my cents in here to. I think I would do the same thing that Pedro did. Not with the thing he did with Zimmer but the words he had with Jorge Posada and the Yankees bench. Both Martinez and Clemens are known as inside pitchers, this a fact that is known around the League. What I mean is I would say the same thing to get in their minds that you never know the ball might slip and I might not hit you in the shoulder. Now I'm not saying I would hit him in the head I would never do that on purpose,but I would want the batter to have that thought in his head when he's standing close to the plate.


Okay flame me I know what I said is against the norm but I can take it I have my Teddy Bear in my lap.

Tishala

Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 10:08 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Jefe, you are right: they are known as inside pitchers who like to intimidate hitters. It is different, however, to say to Jorge Posada "I'm going to throw at your head, too" and point to your head repeatedly than it is to work the inside corners of the plate and back/brush a hitter off. The second is a standard practice most great pitchers have employed, whether they are named Carlton, Kauffax, or Maddox. The first is Bush league.

Ladytex

Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 10:14 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Dang, I'm glad I missed that game!!

Anyway on to my important message:


Ready?


GO CUBBIES!!

Jefe

Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 10:38 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Tish I'm disagree with you. It's the same thing as your second point he just aims above the waist with the Yankees leaning in. The Yankees were crowding the plate and it's not bush league. Brush backs have been going on since the start of baseball Pedro just throws harder. Also Pedro said he was going to throw at Posada he never did, and the next time Posada was up he whiffed.

Tishala

Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 01:22 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Oh Jefe, I agree that the plate is always contested (I said that above); all great pitchers and all great hitters try to get ownership of the plate. It's the way things go.

My objection is that he said he was going to throw at Posada, which I think is bush league. You don't do that as a threat to ONE player, but to the team. Even if he were going to go headhunting--and I don't have a problem with that, BTW--it's bush league to announce it. DO it and get it over with.

BTW, it's not true that "Pedro just throws harder": Rocket throws a harder fastball than Pedro. And he is 40.

Mak1

Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 04:19 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I saw Zimmer running at Pedro while hollering and with a fist raised. That's what I referred to as a "charge". I feel that Pedro could have deflected that fist without having to grab the man's head with both hands and throw him forcefully. I can't understand grown men acting this way. I'm still disgusted and disheartened.

I'm surprised nobody mentioned the real earth-shattering news to come out of the game...Ben and Jen were there, all cozy together!! LOL

Ocean_Islands

Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 09:11 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I think the whole thing is silly, but it is the Yankees that are to blame. Not only is the team overdone, but they are lousy winners. Of course, they win all the time which means they are just lousy.

Bronxie

Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 10:46 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Did anyone hear that the stadium immediately stopped the selling of beer after Zimmer was pushed. I think an eviction at that time would have further infuriated the crowd (and teams) that were minutes away from total riot.. There was a third incident that didn't get as much publicity when a fan jumped into the Yankee bullpen...a scuffle broke out with a yankee player and was quickly stopped when police and teammates interacted. I hadn't realized the animosity between these two teams was so strong. Hope things are cooler today.

Bronxie

Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 11:09 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Question..........Do the announcers for the Marlins/Cubs games annoy anyone else as much as they do me? Or maybe I should be asking if we all hear the same announcers? The threesome I get (on TV) spend ALL the time discussing various pitches, how, why and when, over and over, what the pitcher did wrong or what they would have done, etc. None of them tell how various hits were scorred (hit or error, etc) and they talk so much there's a rush to squeeze in all the commercials (between the innings), and then, back to the game which has already started and sometimes the first batter is finished. with no info as to what he did. ALSO, whenever a long hit is made, they immediately rerun the same player hitting a similar ball in the PAST, I could go on - but I won't. Now I feel better! Thanx!

Bob2112

Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 11:26 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Broxie, the TV announcers annoy me to no end! Ack!

When I watch the game live, I have the radio on and listen to the local Cubs announcers. Much more entertaining and much more informative.

Unfortunately, I usually record the game on a DVR and don't start watching until there's at least 30-60 minutes queued up. That way I can skip the commercials and pitching changes and save an hour of sitting. The radio doesn't help me in that case, so I'm then stuck with the TV guys! Blech!

I usualy catch up to real-time by the 6th to 7th inning and then I can switch to the radio.

Mak1

Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 12:13 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
You know Bob, it did freeze over a couple years ago, allowing the Patriots to win the SuperBowl. Can it happen again so soon? I hope so! Go Cubs!!

Wendo

Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 04:49 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Bronxie, the third incident wasn't a fan jumping into the Yankees bullpen but a Fenway groundskeeper watching the game from there and cheering for the Red Sox. This groundskeeper was allowed to be there and the Yankee pitchers in the bullpen crossed the line.

As to Pedro/Zimmer incident and the high and inside pitching; inside pitching is common and to be expected. It's a mental tactic that many pitchers utilize to keep hitters from crouching the plate. Additionally, listening to some sports people comment, pitchers do not aim for hitters heads purposfully. Most times, the intended pitch leaves their hand wrong and goes a way that's not planned. I would imagine most pitchers would agree. Being hit by a pitch is a risk. Being hit in the head is too.

Now, as to Pedro and Zimmer. Yes, Zimmer is 72 years old and no one wants to see a 72 year old man tossed to the ground. However, from what I saw, Zimmer was rushing Pedro with the intent of throwing a punch. Should Pedro just stand there and take the punch just because the guy throwing it is 72 years old? I don't think so. IMO, Pedro handled it as best he could considering the incident happened in seconds. A man is coming after him about to throw a punch so Pedro backs up, grabs the guy by the head and gets him to the ground. He didn't hit him, didn't take a pot shot, nor keep him in some sort of head lock. Would people be as upset if the Zimmer hadn't been 72? I don't fault Pedro for defending/protecting himself. In fact, I fault Zimmer. He created the situation that lead to himself being thrown to the ground. A man who's played ball and been in management for years; he should've known better.

Well, at least the Yankees and BoSox will have another day to cool off. Game cancelled tonight due to rain.

And, :( , Cubs lose 4-0. Beckett of the Marlins pitched a great game and the Cubs were just unable to hit and get on the scoreboard. So, the series returns to Wrigley Field Tuesday night. Let's hope they clinch Tuesday instead of going to a seventh game. (Wow, clinching in Chicago, it will be mayhem in Wrigleyville.) I give the Marlins credit, they keep on fighting. They'll have to face Prior and Wood to take the penant though. That won't be easy.

Go Cubs!

Tabbyking

Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 04:58 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
wow, this is just like the days of old 'billy ball'! that's what we called it when billy martin was the manager of the A's. some very volatile moments...
it's getting to be more like hockey every year!

Tishala

Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 05:10 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
punk

Mak1

Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 05:20 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Tonight they showed the press conference where Don Zimmer apologized to the Yankees, Red Sox and fans. He was crying and left quickly after his statement. I cried along with him, sheesh. Watching yet another replay of the incident, I saw that Pedro was shocked when Zimmer was swinging at him and had really a short time to react to defend himself. I'm just glad I wasn't there. Four players are being fined by the baseball commission....the Yankees' Zimmer and Garcia, and Sox' Martinez and Manny Ramirez.

Good point Bronxie, about the umpires trying to avoid a riot.