US States with More Gun Owners Have More Murders
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Loppes | Sunday, December 08, 2002 - 09:15 pm     This discussion is interesting. I grew up on a farm also outside of Regina. We didn't have guns, or any need for them. Living in Alberta there is a strong push here for relaxing gun laws. Here is an article which may add to this discussion. http://www.cdc.gov/nasd/docs/d001001-d001100/d001082/d001082.html I will only post the first paragraph, as the article is lengthy and has a breakdown of statistics also. Lon " Lynn Graham Iowa State University Extension Accidents kill more children than disease, kidnapping, and drugs combined. Each year, an estimated 300 people under age 19 die and approximately 24,000 (65 every day) are seriously hurt on our nation's farms. The rate of death is higher in agriculture than in mining, construction, or the timber industry, and children who live on farms may be exposed to dangers 24 hours a day. In Iowa, at least one out of every five farm injuries is to a child. The most common causes of these injuries are from slips and falls, animals, farm machinery, and all-terrain vehicles. " |
Nightcrawler | Sunday, December 08, 2002 - 09:24 pm     Kat, the different opinions is why I love this bord I guess we can agree to disagree on this one. the only reson I posted again was because when I went back and read my 1st post it could have been taken that my son could go get his gun anytime. and I wanted to clear that up. I'm guessing that you must live in a city? Bryan, you are right I would be lost in new york city or any big city. living in a small town or in the country all my life. I could not stand to live in the city there are to many people. the houses look so close together that you could pee out your windo and hit the house next to you. well if you were male. (if a female can do it the houses are really to close together) I know you city people would hate it out here. the closrest house is 1 mile away from us. and if 5 cars go by are house in 1 day that would be rush hour. ok back to the guns now. |
Sia | Sunday, December 08, 2002 - 09:30 pm     Kat, I was trying to "mess with" Bryan's head on the sneaker-color issue. I may live in the country, but I didn't just fall off the turnip truck: they had to PUSH me!! Besides, I was born in my state's capital city and spent my childhood years there, so I don't consider myself a total rube. I get the feeling that other people don't share that opinion. |
Nightcrawler | Sunday, December 08, 2002 - 09:31 pm     thats funny Kat, my boots are black and my sneakers to. I guess I need to chang my boot and sneaker color. or move to the city? |
Bryan | Sunday, December 08, 2002 - 09:51 pm     Sia, my head is messy enough with anyone having to try to mess with it. I am still trying to comprehend the intent behind Loppes post. |
Kat | Sunday, December 08, 2002 - 09:54 pm     Yes I live in a city and we live in worlds that are light years apart. I have never been on a farm in my life. My vacations have all included hotels with an ice maker ten yards away. I dont need to pee out my window to hit the house next to me, I just have to stamp on the floor to bug my neighbor. I go back to the Arkansas killings. The young boys took guns from their grandparents house, where the guns were locked in cabinets. They knew where the key was kept they had been trained in gun use and safety by their parents. Nobody understood how something like this could happen. I see that most of these shootings involving children occur in states where gun ownership and childrens access to guns are accepted and promoted. Parents take pride in their parental duty to ensure their children observe gun safety procedures but the children seem to be desensitized to the ramifications of shooting a gun and killing a living thing. What is the difference between stopping a deer or muskrat and stopping a human?????????? Why expose children at a young age to the experience of taking a life? It escapes me. |
Sia | Sunday, December 08, 2002 - 10:18 pm     Kat, I wanted to stay out of this discussion, but I do have an opinion about this topic: rural kids who pick up guns to shoot classmates because they are desensitized to violence may have become so (desensitized) due to the influence of the media on them--not, as you imply, due to the fact that they are permitted to hunt animals which are allowed to overpopulate unchecked until they pose a public health hazard. Kids across all socioeconomic strata are exposed to violent films, cartoons, rock-and-roll and MTV. Kids everywhere have access to drugs, pornography, tobacco, alcohol and weapons. Any type of kid CAN become a violent kid. Rural kids who use guns in a violent manner are no different, in my opinion, than city kids who are "required" to kill someone with a gun as part of being initiated into a gang. City kids have been found guilty of participating in drive-by shootings. Why single out rural kids as the only potential sociopaths among our young people? I'm not trying to start trouble here. I'm just saying that a kid who shoots a deer to put a meal on his family's table or who learns to hunt because it is a family tradition and an enjoyable pastime for him isn't necessarily going to commit a mass-killing with a hunting rifle. A boy who would shoot someone deliberately with a gun is a boy who has no regard for human life, period. The boy can be from anywhere and can have any number of reasons for being angry at the world. And an angry teen who would commit a violent crime doesn't even have to be a male; increasing numbers of girls are involved in crimes with firearms, as well. All that aside, anyone here eat meat? Someone had to kill the animal that you ate today. Here today, breakfast tomorrow. |
Kaili | Monday, December 09, 2002 - 05:14 am     No, Sia, as a matter of fact I don't eat meat |
Kat | Monday, December 09, 2002 - 09:03 am     This is the state by state data for the year 1999. There are three numbers, how many children aged 0-19 killed by guns, the population of that age group in the particular state and the crude rate. If you look at the crude rate you will see that the rate is highest in states such as Alaska, Missippi, Washington D.C., Montana, New Mexico and Wyoming. I look at the numbers and I would guess that in the states with the exception of Washington D.C. more than likely a significant amount of these deaths were due to accidents. The fact is that while California and New York have a high number of deaths, their crude rate as it relates to the population of that age group is half that of Montana and Missippi. I dont know the statistics for youth killed in crime related gun shootings or accident related shootings but I would not be surprised if accidental deaths are higher. It seems that it is more commonplace and acceptable for children to have guns in rural areas versus an urban area which would explain the higher ratio of deaths in those states. I could be wrong about that. Either way that is a lot of dead children in one year due to guns. That doesnt even include injuries. State-by-State Data Gun Deaths among Children and Youth, 1999 State ....Number.......Population......Crude Rate Alabama....84........1,200,079.............7.00 Alaska.....23..........219,286............10.49 Arizona....88........1,475,466.............5.96 Arkansas...40..........738,213.............5.42 California.404.......9,916,162.............4.07 Colorado....63.......1,189,422.............5.30 Connecticut.19.........906,576.............2.09 Delaware.....5.........203,500.............2.45 Wash D.C....45.........107,509............41.86 Florida....137.......3,943,050.............3.47 Georgia....117.......2,290,843.............5.11 Hawaii.......0.........325,194.............0.00 Idaho.......23.........396,546.............5.80 Illinois...230.......3,533,467.............6.51 Indiana.....91.......1,707,927.............5.33 Iowa........23.........810,786.............2.84 Kansas......31.........784,992.............3.95 Kentucky....39.......1,088,203.............3.58 Louisiana...93.......1,343,190.............6.92 Maine........9.........325,304.............2.76 Maryland....99.......1,445,137.............6.85 Mass........20.......1,622,645.............1.23 Michigan...117.......2,852,281.............4.10 Minnesota...45.......1,417,777.............3.17 Mississippi..73........847,879.............8.61 Missouri.....92......1,563,812.............5.88 Montana......19........253,134.............7.50 Nebraska.....18........498,180.............3.61 Nevada.......27........537,977.............5.02 New Hampshire.4........335,691.............1.19 New Jersey....32.....2,207,376.............1.45 New Mexico....45.......552,563.............8.14 New York.....134.....4,924,845.............2.72 North Carolina.93....2,149,565.............4.33 North Dakota.9.........181,667.............4.95 Ohio..........82.....3,176,247.............2.58 Oklahoma......67.......988,897.............6.78 Oregon........33.......924,467.............3.57 Penn.........124.....3,174,575.............3.91 Rhode Island...8.......266,861.............2.99 S. Carolina...5.......1,074,79.............4.75 S. Dakota.....14.......223,710.............6.25 Tennessee.....85.....1,498,458.............5.67 Texas.........254....6,370,377.............3.99 Utah..........21.......797,188.............2.63 Vermont........3.......156,615.............1.91 Virginia......86.....1,864,049.............4.61 Washington....62.....1,659,646.............3.74 West Virginia.19.......457,621.............4.15 Wisconsin.....74.....1,511,102.............4.90 Wyoming.......11.......144,442.............7.61 a Data include deaths for youth of all races and both sexes, ages 0 to 19. Rates are calculated per 100,000 population. Source: Office of Statistics and Programming, National Center for Injury Prevention and Control, Centers for Disease Control. from http://webapp.cdc.gov/sasweb/ ncipc/mortrate10.html on April 18, 2002. |
Halfunit | Monday, December 09, 2002 - 09:45 am     Kat, I also went to the CDC and did a query on all unintentional deaths for 1999 for ages 1-19 and this is what it gave me. (Not sure why we're getting different numbers.) Cause of Death, Number of Deaths, % MV Traffic----------7297----62.49 Drowning-----------1218----10.43 Fire/burn------------659------5.64 Suffocation----------360------3.08 Other Land Transport------------350------3.00 Poisoning------------334------2.86 Pedestrian-----------274------2.35 Fall-------------------220------1.88 Firearm---------------214------1.83 Unspecified----------145------1.24 Other Transport-----144-------1.23 Struck by-------------118-------1.01 Other Spec., classifiable----------113------0.97 Natural/ Environment---------107------0.92 Pedal cyclist, Other-------------------46------0.39 Machinery--------------37------0.32 Other Spec., NEC--------------------37------0.32 Cut/pierce--------------4------0.03 Were your numbers for 1999, or through 1999? I'm just trying to figure out where the big difference is coming from. |
Kat | Monday, December 09, 2002 - 09:53 am     I just went to CDC and here are total numbers of intentional AND unintentional deaths due to Guns: http://webapp.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate10.html Number ofDeaths........Population...CrudeRate 3,042..................78,553,555....3.87 Try the link. I dont know where you got the number of only 214 deaths due to guns in 1999 nationwide. |
Halfunit | Monday, December 09, 2002 - 10:04 am     CDC - Click Here is the page I went to. I changed the year to 1999-1999, and made a custom age range through 19 years. |
Halfunit | Monday, December 09, 2002 - 10:19 am     Ed. to say, I think the difference is I'm looking at unintentional data. Sad, but still half the number of automobile accidents, and society doesn't tell us we shouldn't drive. I truly believe the problem is not guns themselves. Access to the firearms can be made into an issue, and that is the responsibility of an adult. The children that you reference in Arkansas shooting people had serious underlying psychological problems that were not recognized. And IMHO, that is the cause, not the guns. OK, I'm done ranting. Thanks Kat. |
Kat | Monday, December 09, 2002 - 10:20 am     I tried that link half and didnt get a listing including gunshot. Regardless, I got the numbers from the CDC for the year 1999. Try the link I posted and see if you come up with 214. I feel pretty confident with the numbers I posted as being accurate and not inflated. some more food for thought: A Gun in the Home: Key Facts From 1990-1998, two-thirds of spouse and ex-spouse murder victims were killed with guns Guns are the weapon of choice for troubled individuals who commit suicide. In 1999, firearms were used in 16,599 suicide deaths in America. Among young people under 20, one committed suicide with a gun every eight hours. A gun in the home also increases the likelihood of an unintentional shooting, particularly among children. Unintentional shootings commonly occur when children find an adult's loaded handgun in a drawer or closet, and while playing with it shoot t hemselves, a sibling or a friend. The unintentional firearm-related death rate for children 0-14 years old is NINE times higher in the U.S. than in the 25 other countries combined When Tragedy Strikes Home: Recent Incidents On March 21, 2002, a 14-year-old South Carolina boy deliberately shot and killed his 12-year-old foster sister. The boy had taken live shotgun shells from his father's house and used them in a shotgun that he had taken from his mother's bedroom. ("Alleged shooter under house arrest," The Herald (Rock Hill, SC), March 27, 2002.) On March 28, 2002, 15-year-old Quinton Bridges was shot and critically injured by his 15-year-old friend, Derek Scott Oaks in Tucson, AZ. The youths had been tossing water balloons and wrestling before Oaks loaded his father's rifle and aimed it at his friend's head while the teen sat at a computer playing a game. According to police, the boys were not arguing; Oaks didn't think the firearm worked because he tried to pull the trigger before he went in the room and it didn't fire. Oaks has since been charged with attempted second-degree murder. ("Teen charged with attempted murder," Tucson Citizen, March 30, 2002.) On March 30, 2002, a 9-year-old Seattle boy was wounded when a .22-caliber rifle he and his 13-year-old brother were playing with discharged. The boys were playing with the gun in a bedroom in their uncle's home. ("9-Year-Old Boy Wounded In Apparent Accidental Shooting," KOMO News web site, March 30, 2002.) On April 6, 2002, 3-year-old Stephon Starks shot and wounded himself with a .22-caliber pistol that he found in a dresser drawer in his mother's bedroom in Nashville, TN. Police said Stephon had gotten up to get some clean underwear after he wet the bed when he found the gun. He was climbing back into bed when the gun went off. ("Boy, 3, wounds himself after finding gun in mom's room," The Tennessean, April 7, 2002.) On April 8, 2002, a 4-year-old Jacksonville, FL boy died after unintentionally shooting himself, while playing with his grandfather's gun while the rest of the family was sleeping. ("Boy, 4, accidentally kills self," Florida Times-Union, April 9, 2002.) Specifically, in the nationwide survey of 806 parents, 43% of households with children have guns, and 23% of gun households keep a gun loaded. 28% keep a gun hidden and unlocked. 54% of parents said that they would be highly concerned about their child's safety if they knew there was a gun in the home of their child's friend. Despite many parents' concern about the immediate dangers that guns left in the house pose to their children, they are failing to take the necessary steps to help ensure their children's safety. Perhaps most significantly, many parents simply do not view guns as a personal threat to their children or their family whatsoever. Too often a parent drops off their child at a friend's house for an afternoon play session or a sleep-over party not knowing that the car ride would be the last time they would see their child alive. Why? The study found that most parents don't discuss the issue of guns in the home with the parents of their children's friends. Amazingly, only 30% have asked the parents of their children's friends if there is a gun in the home before allowing a visit. 61% of the parents included in the survey responded that they never even thought about asking other parents about gun accessibility. Clearly, parents don't think about the tragic possibilities of an innocent visit to another home. While parents are asking each other about supervision, food allergies, adult television access, they are ignoring guns — the one factor that could mean the life or death of their child. |
Kat | Monday, December 09, 2002 - 10:37 am     Society does tell us that you cant give an automobile to a child and it also tells us that you have to have a license to drive. So we do recognize the dangers of automobiles but chose to ignore the danger of guns. |
Marysafan | Monday, December 09, 2002 - 10:51 am     The licensing laws for driving vary from state to state. In Iowa, young people are permitted to drive to and from school at age 14. Many of the them have already been driving for years. I think people realize that in the wrong hands both automobiles and guns are dangerous. The question is how to keep them out of the hands of the wrong people...and the allow the others the rights and priveledges they have earned. Also a note on the article above...I notice that it says guns are the weapon of choice for most suicides. This is another of those skewed statements. Of course it is. It is not the "METHOD" of choice, but only the "weapon" of choice. A knife would take longer...and not many folks have acess to a guillotine. |
Halfunit | Monday, December 09, 2002 - 11:15 am     What I was trying to say is there are more than twice as many deaths for children in automobile accidents. Does this mean that we never let kids in cars again? Of course not. In Ohio, you have to be 21 to purchase and own a handgun, and only 15 1/2 to drive a car. Laws are on the books to attempt to protect kids whether it involves guns, cars, wearing a helmet on a bicycle, child abuse, having a fence around an inground pool, fireworks, etc. Do all of these things protect kids all of the time? No. Why is one thing more dangerous than another? It is what people are unfamiliar with that frightens them the most. I would bet my 401k that there are many many more children harmed in this country by emotional and physical abuse and neglect than by weapons. These are the ones that I worry about. |
Kat | Monday, December 09, 2002 - 11:31 am     That is true Half and Ohio also has a provision for no use of any firearm by person less than 16 or 17 years of age. For people interested in knowing more about specific states laws: click here |
Halfunit | Monday, December 09, 2002 - 12:02 pm     From your site: <<Juvenile Possession Law -- bars possession of handguns by juveniles (usually those under 18). Some states grant exceptions for guns used for hunting and target practice.>> I know that in Ohio, teens can hunt providing they follow the same rules as adults (I'm not sure, but I would assume there has to be an adult present). The 12 year old daughter of a co-worker just tagged her first buck this season. |
Cmore | Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 05:00 pm     Kat Wrote....." So we do recognize the dangers of automobiles but chose to ignore the danger of guns." If that statement is true, then why do the 1999 statistics say this? Cause of Death, Number of Deaths, % MV Traffic----------7297----62.49 Firearm---------------214------1.83 More than 62% of all unintentional deaths for 1999 for ages 1-19 were automobile related, while less than 2% were gun related, yet you believe we recognize the dangers of children in automobiles, but ignore the dangers of guns??? Better splain that one to me. |
Bastable | Sunday, December 15, 2002 - 07:04 pm     I don't think we can digest the numbers appropriately until we take into account ALL deaths caused by something, not just the unintentional ones. I'll bet a few people die unintended deaths from slipping on banana peels every year, too--but unlike guns, bananas weren't designed for the express purpose of killing things. How many people die from guns every year in America? A lot. And I also think we should consider the deaths of ALL human beings by guns, not just kids. |
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