Archive through December 03, 2002
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TV ClubHouse: Archives: U.S. Gov't now requires high schools to provide names/addresses of kids: Archive through December 03, 2002

Max

Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 12:37 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Thoughts/opinions?

Uncle Sam wants your kid
Tuesday, December 3, 2002 Posted: 10:30 AM EST (1530 GMT)

The new law says that schools must give the military the same access to their campuses that businesses and college recruiters enjoy.

BOSTON, Massachusetts (AP) -- A little-noticed provision in a new federal education law is requiring high schools to hand over to military recruiters some key information about its juniors and seniors: name, address and phone number.

The Pentagon says the information will help it recruit young people to defend their country. But the new law disturbs parents and administrators in some liberal communities that aren't exactly gung-ho about the armed forces.

Some say the law violates students' privacy and creates a moral dilemma over the military's "don't ask, don't tell" policy on gays.

"I find it appalling that the school is sending out letters to do the job of the military," said Amy Lang, the parent of a student at Cambridge Rindge and Latin School, where Coke was once banned in a protest against the soda giant's investments in apartheid South Africa. "It's clearly an invasion of my daughter's privacy."

The No Child Left Behind law, signed last January, pumps billions into education but also gives military recruiters access to the names, addresses and phone numbers of students in 22,000 schools. The law also says that schools must give the military the same access to their campuses that businesses and college recruiters enjoy.

School systems that fail to comply could lose federal money. The measure also applies to private schools receiving federal funding. But Quaker schools and others that have a religious objection to military service can get out of the requirement.

Students and parents who oppose the law can keep their information from being turned over to the military, but they must sign and return an "opt-out" form.

Opting out
The Boston school system, which has 7,500 juniors and seniors, included the opt-out notice in a take-home student handbook, but fewer than a dozen parents opted out.

So far, 95 percent of the nation's schools are in compliance, said Pentagon spokeswoman Maj. Sandra Troeber. She would not identify the other schools. But Education Department spokesman Dan Langan said that the current focus is on cooperation and that no schools have been sanctioned.

Federal law already requires men to register with the Selective Service within 30 days of turning 18. The new law, however, enables the Pentagon to reach potential recruits when they are 15 or 16.

In New York City, Daniel Alterman was taken aback when his 15-year-old son, a junior at Stuyvesant High, received a recruitment letter.

"Parents are in the dark," Alterman said. "It freaked me out. I didn't sign up to support the military effort."

Alterman said after he opted out, his son received another letter, this one promoting scholarships. "It was very seductive. They didn't say anything about risk to personal safety," Alterman said.

Among those objecting to the new requirements is the New York City chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union. Executive director Donna Lieberman said that the opt-out provision is inadequate and that schools should be doing more to protect students' privacy.

In a letter last month, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Education Secretary Rod Paige reminded high school administrators of their duty, and cited "the excellent educational opportunities the military affords, as well as an environment that encourages the development of strong character and leadership skills."

'We had to comply with the law'
The Pentagon said better access to students could also hold down the rising costs of recruitment. Over the past decade, the cost per recruit has nearly doubled from $6,500 to $11,600.

Before the law, military recruiters could meet with students in Cambridge and Northampton on campus only if the student sought them out, and then only at a meeting attended by a guidance counselor. But Cambridge held a military career fair at the high school a month ago.

"It's a vast departure from the way we've done business," said Donna Harlan, an associate superintendent in the Northampton school system. "We are not in the business of giving lists of names of kids to anybody. That was tough. The issue was if we were to receive federal or state money, we had to comply with the law."

The law also spelled the end of a 6-year ban on military recruiting on campus in Portland, Oregon. After contending that the "don't ask, don't tell" policy discriminates against gays, the school system now gives recruiters a shot at its 16,000 students.

In Massachusetts, Framingham High senior April Middleton decided over lunch recently that maybe the military is in her future after talking with Army National Guard Sgt. Louis Perrin, a recruiter who visited the cafeteria.

Middleton, 18, said she plans to enlist after she graduates, and the prospect of war has not scared her off. "Sometimes you've got to make sacrifices," she said.

Sometimes, however, recruiters battle hostility.

"One teacher said we were trying to brainwash kids. All we were doing was handing out pencils," Perrin said. "We're not trying to invade anybody's privacy. We're just trying to protect their freedoms."

Goddessatlaw

Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 01:03 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I think it's the best idea I've heard in a long time. Many teenagers don't give a thought to what's coming next, and are completely undisciplined and unmotivated to go to college. The military - reserves, guard, and full active - provides a tremendous opportunity for otherwise directionless young adults to gain discipline, job training and pay for their college education when they're ready for it. Many wouldn't even stop to think about it if not approached with recruiting information. Frankly, after 9/11 I would imagine that many coming out of high school wonder what they might do to help this country in very dangerous times. Well, here it is. No one's forcing anyone to join - this generation is lucky there is no conscription. If the least that is required is to give the military access to provide high schoolers with recruiting information and lay out the possibilities that the military might open for them, well I'm all for it.

Crossfire

Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 01:09 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I have not really given this a lot of thought, and it has no effect on me whatsoever, but I think an opt in program would be better than an opt out.

Twiggyish

Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 02:18 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Ok, I'm going to be the opposing side to this issue. I think it is an invasion of privacy. When you sign your child up for an education in a public school, you are not giving anyone outside permission to access that information. What's next? Who's to say who will NEXT have permission to their files? Suddenly, the military can delve into private lives? Don't children have rights, too?

Goddessatlaw

Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 02:51 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
No, Twiggy, basically they don't until they're adults.

Wargod

Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 03:01 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Yeah, but aren't we as parents suppossed to make sure we protect them? Kind of hard to do when schools are being forced to give out their names, phone numbers, and addresses. OK, I know this is not the same as giving the information out to a stranger off the street, but whats to stop say credit card companies from trying the same thing. They stake out college campus's trying to get kids to sign up, why not high school.

I have no problem with either of my kids choosing to go into the military. My father, uncles, and cousins all went into the Marines, my husband the Army. I'd just rather have them choose it on their own instead of getting recruitment stuff in the mail when their still children. Some 15 year olds know what they want to do...some don't. Let them make the decisions themselves...they don't need their school sending all their info to someone else.

Twiggyish

Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 03:01 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
It doesn't seem fair to open private records to someone else. I don't care if it is the military. It's another government intrusion into the private lives of citizens.. just my opinion.

Goddessatlaw

Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 03:04 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I understand, Twiggyish - but my opinion is my tax dollars go to educate those children, regardless of the fact that I have no children myself and resent having to pay to educate those of others. And if the minor-league payoff is that the U.S. military is afforded to the means to reach these kids with opportunities to serve their country and pay back some of what they've taken while earning more, well so be it.

Mware

Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 03:08 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Even if the school didn't give the information to the military directly, in many cases it's still available.

How many local newspapers publish the names of the students who make the honor roll in high school each semester? And how many parents beam with pride over the fact that their kid's name was in the paper, rather than getting upset that their privacy was violated?

When I was in high school, I received dozens of brochures from colleges I'd never even heard of, much less requested information from. The military is one more choice available to a graduating senior, and one which they may not consider unless they receive that information at the same time they are making up their minds about life after high school.

In my opinion, if it's OK for colleges to send information to a student, it's OK for the Armed Forces to get the same information, and for them to use the same recruiting methods that colleges use.

Halfunit

Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 03:12 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I'm with Twig.

<<The No Child Left Behind law, signed last January, pumps billions into education but also gives military recruiters access to the names, addresses and phone numbers of students in 22,000 schools.>>

Yet another example of you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours.

I suppose medical records will be included also, since the recruiters won't want to waste their time with those who are flat footed, have psoriasis, are hiv+, or some other medical condition preventing them from enlistment.

Teens are already aware of what exists out there when it comes to the Armed Forces. There are commercials targeted towards them, recruiters already visit high schools, etc.

By accessing the phone numbers and addresses, the military is going to start harassing the PARENTS mailbox and phone line.

It irks me that high schoolers are now going to be targeted by, what boils down to, military telemarketers.

Goddessatlaw

Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 03:18 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Well, then maybe we should go back to the draft. With everyone complaining about the military spreading itself too thin in Afghanistan and Iraq, the military must need beefing up. Why should the very brave and very good people like my brother and cousin be the ones paying the price for this country? A few letters and a phone call or two is a minor, minor price to ask right now, particularly given what our preceding generations have suffered.

Marysafan

Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 03:42 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Many countries have mandatory military service. I have to agree with the Goddess on this one. You live in this country and enjoy it's freedoms...but are more than happy to let someone else do the necessary military time.

If more people had to do military service...then maybe ...just maybe we wouldn't be involoved in so many wars. I personally think that every congressmen who votes for war should have to send one of their own first...before they ask us to send ours.

At least now they still have a chance to choose military service...or not. There have been times in the not so distant past...when that choice was made for you.

Privacy is an illusion. There are people who have access to your personal information every day.

Halfunit

Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 03:46 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Goddess, I see your point. My BIL is "somewhere" in the Pacific as we speak.

I just can't imagine all the money that is going to be pumped into this type of recruiting. It strikes me as phone blitzing and junk mail. I don't mean "junk mail" in the sense that our Armed Forces are junk, just that I see these mailings being thrown out.

This is not going to instill the pride that our uncles, fathers, and grandfathers had when they enlisted. Perhaps a draft of some sort would be a good thing. I'm almost positive there are countries who make service mandatory for a couple of years upon graduation. Would something like that give the upcoming generations a greater sense of patriotism? I don't know.

Mosessupposes

Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 03:54 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Twiggyish ask: "Don't children have rights, too?"

Goddessatlaw responded: "No, Twiggy, basically they don't until they're adults."

I am asking this in all seriousness. Do children really have no rights? Where does it say this?

How about child labor laws?

How about the right not to be physically abused?

How about illegal search and seizure?

I could go on and on...maybe children really don't have any rights, but where in the law is this stated?

Maybe I have watched too many episodes of "Law and Order".

Twiggyish

Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 03:56 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Military telemarketing is a good point. I agree Half at the cost to tax payers, too.

I am totally for the armed services. I support our men and women in the military. I do not support using private school records to recruit. Reinstating the draft is a scary prospect, as well.

Denecee

Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 04:03 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
My . My son just graduated from highschool last year and all during his senior year he received several calls from recruiters. Now my daughter, who is a senior, is getting the calls and I have one more to go(not sure if my "adopted daughter(senior)" will get calls. I don't mind the calls and if they want to join, then I will support their decision. So you see, they already call and send stuff in the mail.

Goddessatlaw

Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 04:07 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Moses: child labor laws and laws against physical abuse and just that - laws. Not rights. Think about it - children have no right to privacy - their parents carry those rights, but even then only so far. Don't we have drug testing in schools? Aren't police allowed to search a child's personally assigned school locker? No right against illegal search and seizure there - something which requires probable cause in adult situations. A parent can consent to have their child, their child's car or their child's bedroom searched. There are human rights which attach, sure, universal human rights. Nonetheless, parents can still spank their children to varying degrees depending on state. Most children on the receiving end of spankings would consider this child abuse. Nonetheless, parents can do it. Striking another unconsenting adult is a criminal battery. U.S. constitutional rights in large part do not attach until you're 18.

Mosessupposes

Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 04:12 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
If they reinstate the draft, I hope they do it by the Nixon lottery method. It was so amazingly fair.

My first 2 years in college the Viet Nam War was just beginning to escalate. I was prime draft material. Anyone who went to college was not draft eligible. I wanted to go to college. I didn't want to go fight in Viet Nam. No one I knew in college wanted to go.

But others were less fortunate. They couldn't afford college, or their grades weren't high enough to meet entrance requirements, or they just plain had no desire to go to college. They ended up in Viet Nam.

My third year in college, Nixon (who I did not support) instituted the lottery. It totally evened the playing field for everyone. College was no longer a way out of the draft. If you were of draft age you became draft eligible...no excuses other than medical.

Although I admired Nixon for nothing else, I have always thought that the draft lottery was the fairest method to military conscription.

Yes, students who pulled a low lottery number had to leave college before graduating, but the local trade school student who pulled a high lottery number got to finish his education.

Of course people still managed to pull strings and get around the draft...but this has happened throughout history. You could legally buy your way out of the Civil War for $300.00.

Max

Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 04:15 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
The military has PLENTY of presence in kids' lives. Watched any MTV lately? LOTS of ads for military that make it all look like a walk in the park and a great way to explore the world while getting money for an education, too.

As someone else pointed out, there are lots of ways for the military to have access to recruiting teens.

I think it's fine that they are now allowed to actively recruit on campus. I have no problem with that. But I don't think it's okay for the schools to be MANDATED to send names, addresses, and phone numbers of students to ANYONE without express, written permission from parents. The "opt-out" clause is a joke. And what's next? Will there be lists of parents who chose to opt-out? Will this become the new source of blacklisting people ala McCarthyism? Yeah, it's a leap, but not that big of a one, IMHO.

And what if a student is openly gay? The military frowns on that. Will those students eventually be listed with an asterisk by their name?

Isn't all this a violation of civil rights? Don't parents have the right to at least feel SOME semblance of control over who has access to their kids?

I think this is one of many chinks in the armor of individual rights that is happening as a knee-jerk reaction to September 11.

This is one of those "sneak it in the back door" provisions which largely go unnoticed by the public until it directly effects them. It's what they would call "pork" attached to legislative bills. You put little nuggets like this as part of a bigger issue that has large public support. No one notices the little stuff or, if they do, they say that the big-picture item is more important. Then they discover that the little stuff is biting their ankles. Get enough bites on the ankle and your achilles tendon goes out. Then you're hobbled.

Just my opinion. :)

Goddessatlaw

Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 04:21 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Max: I don't understand why the "opt out" provision is a joke. If parents were so concerned about access to their child by military recruiters, they'd fill it out and send it back. The posted article said only 5% of parents filled it out in one school. Is this too much to ask when they're supposedly so concerned about their child's well-being and peace of mind? Is there concern that these concerned parents aren't paying sufficient attention to their school's mailers that they might miss it and their children suffer a recruiting seminar as a direct result of their failure to pay attention? I don't think they should be given an opt-out option to begin with - the kids should be able to listen and make up their own minds, instead of having the article-referenced anti-military parents deny them the opportunity to at least visit the subject.

Wargod

Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 04:21 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I'm with Twigs on this one. The part that bothers me is using the schools to gain access to the kids private records. I don't know how it is in other communities, but here at almost every community event you find recruiters. They have their own booths at the county fair and the jobs fairs..right next to the police and fire departments, and the community college. Our kids have easy access to the recruiters here. I just don't think a couple phone calls and letters will change their minds either way...if they want to do it, they will..if they don't want to they won't. I don't like the fact that they're using the schools to obtain personal info.

Halfunit

Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 04:24 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
...in a blackmail tactic to boot.

Goddessatlaw

Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 04:25 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Wargod: how is this different than college recruiters? I was contacted by at least 50 colleges and universities - unsolicited, mind you. I applied to and attended the one university I applied to for undergraduate work. Now how did they get my information?

Halfunit

Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 04:28 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Colleges don't threaten to withhold funding if there is noncompliance.

That's the part that bugs me. I know it's not the first time, and it won't be the last - but it's not right.

Max

Tuesday, December 03, 2002 - 04:30 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
To me, opt-out policies on most things are a joke. People simply don't pay attention. Many companies have opt-out policies for selling your name as part of mailing lists that go to telemarketers and junk mail folks (either electronic or snail mail). Most folks don't notice them and wonder why they get so much junk mail.

I just think that when it comes to passing a kid's address and phone number around, even to the government, the default should be NO with an opt-IN policy, not the other way around.

Why should ANY group be given blanket access to address and phone numbers for minors? Instead, why don't they just send recruiters to the schools to talk to kids (they do this) and send materials to the kids AT SCHOOL. For example, send a packet of materials to every member of every junior and senior class in each of the 22,000 schools. This would still get the information out to the target audience and would cost the taxpayers less money since the material could be sent in bulk to each school instead of individually to each student's home. Wouldn't that serve the same purpose? The opt-out would then be totaly up to the student in the form of taking the materials to read or dropping them in the nearest recycle bin.

I see no reason for a military telemarketing campaign. What a waste. Oh, and here in Oregon, we have a state-run program that you can participate in to prevent telemarketers from bugging you. I pay something like $6.50 a year and my name goes on a list of others who have chosen to participate. That list is then sent to all telemarketing companies a couple of times a year. If, after receiving the list, the telemarketers continue to call me, they are subject to fines. Wonder if the military is exempt from that? (By the way, it works wonders! No more annoying calls in the evenings. :))