Archive through October 21, 2002
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TV ClubHouse: Archive: Install hardwood flooring: Archive through October 21, 2002

Weinermr

Sunday, October 20, 2002 - 10:23 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I would post this in the Trading Spaces area, but I think it will get more exposure here.

Out of necessity, I will soon be replacing the wall to wall carpeting in several rooms of our house with hardwood flooring of some type. I'm going to start the project by replacing the carpeting in an adjoining dining room/family room area, which totals approximately 375 square feet.

Because of the economics involved, this will be a do-it-yourself project - I will be doing the installation myself.

I'm dizzy with all the product choices - way too many to chose from - but I have pretty much decided to go with prefinished "engineered" wood flooring, probably something made by Bruce.

I have been to Home Depot, and I've been to Lowe's, and other places, and I've read various sources of installation instructions. I don't need any website recommendations - but I am looking for any and all practical advice on installation of hardwood flooring. Any tips, tricks, horror stories, success stories, etc. that anyone can provide will be greatly appreciated.

I live in Southern California, and will probably be doing the installation sometime in early to mid-November. For the initial two room project, the flooring will be installed on above-ground concrete slab.

Any suggestions you can offer will be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

Car54

Sunday, October 20, 2002 - 11:06 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Weiner, I am certainly no expert, but the chain of retail stores uses the engineered laminate wood floors in our high traffic areas and they are fabulous.

They get constant traffic...people tracking in dirt, mud, water...we roll carts full of merchandise on them constantly and they hold up beautifully. I have watched the installers do it a bunch of times and it really does not look too hard. Kind of tedious..you have to go slow and fit the strips carefully...our guys use clamps I think, but when Vern does it on TS, he uses tape to hold the strips til the glue dries.

The big thing I notice when our guys do it is ventilation...they use some heavy duty really stinky adhesive and it is brutal...our stores are wide open during a renovation, but in a home, I would want some kind of serious air flow to push the stink out.

I tend to get really sick from a lot of chemical smells ...so I try to wait til they are pretty much done to spend much time in the store since the area they are working is near where I am doing my installs.

Good luck!

Car54

Sunday, October 20, 2002 - 11:06 am EditMoveDeleteIP
well dang...double post! :)

Zeyna

Sunday, October 20, 2002 - 11:31 am EditMoveDeleteIP
We completed our living room last summer with engineered Bruce flooring. No horror stories to tell thankfully, but here are just a few tips in addition to the directions:
- start on the longest wall and perpendicular to the joists.
- rent a pneumatic nailer, using a manual nailer is tough work and produces many calluses.
- have access to a good saw.
- we have a few pieces where the seams are too close together and this does not look very good. Try to pick the pieces in advance and make sure they are aesthetically pleasing.

That's all I can think of right now, but will add some more if anything should pop into mind. Good luck & have fun! The end result is well worth the effort.

Resortgirl

Sunday, October 20, 2002 - 12:04 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Wiener, We sell engineered woods floors, several brands. I'll do some research and get back to you soon! OK?

Weinermr

Sunday, October 20, 2002 - 01:15 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Thanks Car, we'll need durability, so it sounds like we're on the right track!

Zeyna, I'm glad to hear things turned out so well for you. Thanks so much for the tips. I'll use them.

RG, any assistance you can provide will be appreciated. Thanks! {{{RG}}}

Bob2112

Sunday, October 20, 2002 - 04:08 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Hey Weiner, I think you and Car may be talking about 2 different products. The terminology is very confusing, so maybe you are talking about the same thing.

Laminate flooring (i.e. Pergo and others) is certainly very durable, but is not necessarily the same as engineered flooring. The laminate flooring does not actually have any wood in it. It is glued or snapped together and "floated" on a thin foam underlayment. All the pieces are the same size and much wider than strips or planks.

An engineered flooring has a thin layer of hardwood which is laminated to a cheaper underlayment wood. This flooring is usually no more durable than a 3/4 inch hard wood with the same prefinish. All the pieces are the same width and length, but they are individual pieces around 3 1/2 inches in width.

You did say that you were installing it over a concrete slab, so I'm guessing that you are either looking at a glue down floor or one that you can "float".
<pneumatic or manual, it sure is hard to nail into concrete>
Even though it is above ground, you should probably test the moisture level of the slab to avoid any problems down the road.

If you are looking at the engineered flooring that has a thin amount of hardwood on the top, you should check to see how thick it is. Some engineered flooring may be refinished once or possibly twice, but I've just finished ripping out 700 sq. ft. of 1/2 inch engineered flooring (put in by the builder) that was too thin to be refinished.

Also, are you planning to make your purchase from Home Depot (or another store) or will you be ordering through the internet?
I saved close to 50% on my 3/4 hardwood flooring by ordering through the internet and it was shipped and arrived in 4 days. The shipping was much lower than the sales tax would have been from Home Depot, so even that was a savings. Also, it was a higher grade of wood (from the same manufacturer).

I don't know about the engineered flooring prices, but the laminate flooring did not seem to have as good a discount over the internet.

Anyway, good luck with your project. I'm sure someone will correct all the errors in my post.
Email/post any questions and we will help you get something installed in time for Christmas.

Nicoleme

Sunday, October 20, 2002 - 04:39 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
we JUST bought Bruce oak flooring for our living room/hallway. we are putting it down ourselves this week (hopefully) we got the prefinished (engineered? im not up on the terminology) we got the light oak, tavern grade at home depot. it looks nice in the box :) my husband kinda does carpentry on the side and said it was nice, durable, strong stuff. i just want to make sure its pretty :)

Zeyna

Sunday, October 20, 2002 - 05:18 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Good point Bob, I guess pneumatic/manual nailer would be out of question in this situation :) I totally missed the concrete slab part.
We also did a laminate floor in our basement (over a concrete floor), which was a bit of a headache. The glue part is very tedious, and messy. Joining the pieces perfectly is not the easiest thing as the glue is slippery. After a few rows, we went out and rented clamps which was helpful. They nicely alligned the peices, but we did have a few collapses in the beginning (when we clamped it too tight). This was actually the first time we tried such a thing, so it was a try and learn type of experience. It came out well in the end, but it was a big job. Our basement is about 300 sq. feet and it took the two of us an entire weekend.

Tess

Sunday, October 20, 2002 - 06:00 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Our entire first floor had to be redone in wood for health reasons. All of it was done over normal wood subfloor since we have a full basement but the entire new floor is also floated over a foam underlay. It is pre-finished and I think it's the stuff Bob's talking about. It is hardwood, but only the top 3/4" I believe. The rest is some other wood. It came in cartons and all the planks are made up of smaller staggered strips and all the planks are the same size. The brand was Vanguard and it was purchased from Home Depot.

We had a situation where it was necessary to tear out some granite floor and some ancient linoleum which contained some small amount of asbestos. That required very specific testing, handling and disposal.

We did have Home Depot contract out the installation of the wood but DH tore out all of the existing flooring. Sarah and I ended up moving into a hotel for a week due to the dust, fumes, noise, etc and that was well worth the money. You may not need to go to such extremes if you are doing one room at a time. All of our main floor rooms flow into each other (except for the bedrooms).

One thing I was very glad we did was seal off any rooms which were unaffected because they already had wood floors. We accomplished that with heavy-duty plastic sheets and lots of duct tape. That gave us some dust-free zones in the house which were vital due to our situation. We also sealed off all computer and electronic equipment and the piano and moved everything but the piano to the basement. It's rather amazing how much dust is generated.

I can't say anything about glue, clamps or nailers because every day when we came home to say hi, the crew was at lunch. Good timing on our part.

Weinermr

Sunday, October 20, 2002 - 06:24 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Thanks all. Great comments, and I'm taking it all down for future reference. Sounds like alot of success stories out there, so I'm being optimistic about my own situation.

Does anyone have any comments about dark wood vs. medium vs. light vs. red tones, etc.? Am I opening a can of worms with this question?

Car54

Sunday, October 20, 2002 - 06:44 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Weiner..did you see the Vern room where he used 2 colors and did stripes? Very cool. :)

Sia

Sunday, October 20, 2002 - 06:58 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
The hallway where my computer sits was previously carpeted, and this summer I had a local flooring/carpeting company install laminate flooring. I love the stuff because it's durable, attractive and very easy to clean. I learned a few things about the stuff that you might want to think about, however.

The plastic laminate flooring is installed over a thin foam pad (on a concrete slab, in the case of my hallway) and is just snapped together--the "floating" floor described above in other posts. When you're cutting the pieces to length, be careful at door jambs and corners, and allow a tiny bit of space (I think 1/8-in to 1/4-in is recommended) for expansion between the ends of the pieces of laminate and the walls/baseboard--but NOT TOO MUCH space. (The installers didn't account for the way the wood trim later installed by my carpenter would extend out over the flooring, and they trimmed some pieces a bit too short, and the gaps show.)

Tess

Sunday, October 20, 2002 - 06:59 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Weiner, it was impossible to match our existing oak molding, doors and cabinets on our budget. We also knew we would have to intall quarter round throughout the house after the floor went in. Our floor color I "think" is honey wheat....sort of medium tone and very warm. The quarter round was then stained in a shade between the existing wood color and the new floor color. Charlie did that part himself with stain containing polyurethane. Somehow it all works.

After 24 years I'm still trying to get used to living in an area where it is the norm to stain all the woodwork instead of painting it as we did in SF.

Sia

Sunday, October 20, 2002 - 07:57 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Weiner, I love my laminate flooring, but it does make for different ACOUSTICS in the hallway where it's installed, and that might be something you want to think about first. My DH works swing-shift, and he says the hallway (even with our bedroom door shut) just ECHOES now when the kids and I are talking at the computer.

Another thing; the sound is different on this flooring when it is WALKED ON with shoes. My kids tend to RUN THRU THE HALL as it (and the kitchen) lies in their path as they race from one bedroom to the other. A rug is needed in the hallway now, but I can't find one the right dimensions. I haven't looked hard enough.

Sorry for splitting up this post, but I had two instant-message convos going, and it got confusing! LOL

Weinermr

Monday, October 21, 2002 - 12:50 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Tess, thanks for the additional info.

Sia, no I don't mind you broke up your info into two posts. I'm very grateful to have your response, and the benefit of your experience. Thank you.

Car - I don't remember that particular TS. I'll look for it. Thank you.

Karuuna

Monday, October 21, 2002 - 01:03 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Well, heck, can any of you flooring experts tell me why my wood floor has buckled at the front door? The previous owners installed it 2 years ago. It's buckling along the length of the pieces, about 4 feet long, and about 1/2 inch high now. The buckle covers about 4 of the pieces width-wise. It sounds like the same stuff Tess is talking about, because it came from Home Despot. (Which is enough to trip over, if you're not paying attention, who expects a speed bump inside a house?! :))

The subflooring did get wet, because I had a leak around the foundation by the front door. But is my only choice to rip the whole thing up now? If it gets much worse, I won't be able to open the front door at all!

Babyruth

Monday, October 21, 2002 - 01:47 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
LOL. I see I'm not the only one who uses that HD name variation!
Great info here in this thread! I hope to install wood flooring in one room next year, so am printing out all this useful information. :)

Zeyna

Monday, October 21, 2002 - 04:09 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Karuuna, from my VERY limited knowlege, my suggestion would be to either screw the wood down & put carpet over that area, or cut out the section with a saw & replace the missing pieces. However, it may not be easy to find the exact same wood finish, and depending on how worn out/darkened (my cherry floors got significantly darker over the year from the light) the current floor is, it might look different anyway. The other possibility is screwing it down from underneath, that is if you have access to the foyer from below. This would probably be easier than cutting out the sections.

Bob2112

Monday, October 21, 2002 - 04:31 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Karuuna, since it did get wet, there could be a couple of things going on. None of them very good.

What kind of subfloor do you have? If it's plywood or OSB, then very likely it absorbed the water and has expanded. This is very common at the edges and could easily raise the floor 1/2 inch.

Does the actual flooring look warped? If so, then it would likely need to be replaced.

Another possibility is that there was not enough space left for the floor to expand. With the extra moisture from getting wet, it's possible that the floor has expanded more than last year and may be pressing up against the wall.

Your best bet would be to have someone look at it and tell you what the problem is and what they would do to fit it. Then tell us and we can help you figure out if you can do it yourself or if you need a professional.

What type of flooring is it? Most hardwood is 3/4" thick and the engineered flooring is about 1/2" thick.

Do you know how the flooring was installed? Glued down, glued together, blind nailed or stapled?

Karuuna

Monday, October 21, 2002 - 06:22 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Bob, I'll do my best here. I have a dropped ceiling in the basement, so I can see from underneath. There is plywood underneath, and there is a seam in the plywood right underneath where the bump is. But other than the plywood having been wet, from the underside, the plywood looks fine. I can see nails coming down thru the plywood. When I pull up one of the forced air vents, I can see only a piece of plywood, and some thin piece of black stuff between the plywood and the flooring itself.

The flooring could be warped by now, it's kind of hard to tell. The hump in the floor is from wall to open space on the other side (a carpet and about a 1/4 inch gap between the carpet and the last piece of flooring).

The flooring pieces themselves are tongue and groove, and 3/4 of an inch thick.

And everyone I've had look at the thing just scratches their head and says something wise like "well, heck, i've never seen *that* happen before!" Doesn't exactly instill confidence.

Tess

Monday, October 21, 2002 - 06:23 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Weiner, Bob brings up an excellent point. It's crucial to have that "gap" around the perimeter to allow for the natural expansion and contraction of your installed flooring due to weather changes including the amount of humidity in your home. Our installers didn't leave a uniform gap--1/2" in some places and a hair's width in others. There are also choices. You can rip out the existing molding and put it back up on top of the new flooring (huge job and you can damage the molding in the process) or you can install the flooring leaving the necessary gap between it and your existing molding. Then you cover the gap with the quarter round which can be purchase pre-stained and finished or in it's nekkid form. :)

You also need to be aware of high and low spots in your room. It's entirely possible that your floor may not be level. I can't remember off the top of my head what we were told is the maximum desired variance.

It occurs to me that you probably know all of this from watching This Old House. Maybe Car would loan you Norm for a couple of days.

Kar, give me directions and I'll come stomp down that floor for you. End of problem. I'm in a stompin' kinda mood these days.tess

Karuuna

Monday, October 21, 2002 - 06:29 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Tess, okie dokie, I'm uploading those directions for ya. But I have to warn you, all the kids and I have tried and all I did was hurt my foot. And even if you came, you couldn't get in the front door, 'cause I can't quite get it open....

Weinermr

Monday, October 21, 2002 - 06:29 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Tess. Thank you. We're going to replace the molding anyway. I'll try to make the gap around the edges as even as possible, and it will be concealed by the wonderful new molding we will eventually get.

Kar - From the sound of your situation it sounds like moisture is the culprit. I'm not an expert yet, but I'm larnin.

Bob2112

Monday, October 21, 2002 - 08:21 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Kar, all I can think of to say is,
"well, heck, i've never seen *that* happen before!"
Just kidding! LOL

It sounds like your floor and underlayment are the same as mine, minus the buckling.
The black stuff is most likely 15# roofing felt (or building paper) and is commonly put over the underlayment to help reduce squeaking.

I don't know for sure, but I would guess that the plywood would tend to swell upwards away from the joists since there is less force in that direction. So, it is possible that the plywood wood look fine from the basement. I needed to sand down many top edges of my plywood when I installed my floor for this very reason.

Do you have a digital camera? If you do, email me some pictures so I can get a better idea of how the area looks.

Depending on the strength of the wood, it may be possible for an experience flooring person to pull up part of the floor starting from the carpeting, but there's no guarantee that the tongue won't be damaged.

Maybe you could cut out a rectangle at the entry way, correct the problem with the floor and install ceramic tile. This is what I opted to do after ripping out the old floor and it looks very nice and keeps the snow and rain off of the wood.

(or you could just have Tess come over there and stomp it down for you!)