Pledge of Allegiance Declared Unconstitutional
TV ClubHouse: Archive: Pledge of Allegiance Declared Unconstitutional
Faerygdds | Monday, July 01, 2002 - 05:06 am     LOL... I read the page on their site about what a Liberal Quaker is... certainly nothing WRONG with it... seemed nice |
Wcv63 | Monday, July 01, 2002 - 05:12 am     Liberal Quakers do seem pretty cool. I can't get over being labeled a Quaker though. It sounds so....old fashioned and Amish. My last post was made by the 32% of me that is obviously somehow a Jehovah's Witness. |
Faerygdds | Monday, July 01, 2002 - 05:25 am     ROFLMAO!!!!!!! |
Goatgirl | Tuesday, July 02, 2002 - 12:09 pm     I'm a little late to this thread but enjoyed reading everyone's posts. About that religion selector test, I took it a few months ago when I saw it posted somewhere else around here. On my list, Jehovah's Witness was dead last at 7%. I got a good laugh out of that since I was raised a Jehovah's Witness. I escaped in my late teens/early twenties, so I enjoyed seeing that name last on my list. Like a "See that? I knew we were wrong for each other!!" By the way in the 10+ years that I have lived on my own after moving out of mom's house, I have not had one Jehovah's Witness come to my door. If you want to develop immunity maybe you might try becoming one for a short time! To get back to the Pledge of Allegiance, that is one of those things that JW's don't do (in fact they have had their own big court cases over this), so I was one of those weird little kids in your class who sat quietly while you were standing and reciting. I still have never recited it, I am sure I must have been to some event where it was done and maybe I just didn't because it still felt a little strange to me. I don't remember. So I have sort of a dumb question - at what other places or occasions outside of school is the Pledge of Allegiance recited? |
Wcv63 | Tuesday, July 02, 2002 - 01:18 pm     Goatgirl...good question. Probably political rallies and conventions recite the pledge but as I've never been to one (other than fund raisers this is strictly a guess). Sporting events just sing the Star Spangled Banner...no recitation of the pledge. Ummmmm....hmmmmm....anybody else have an answer? |
Faerygdds | Tuesday, July 02, 2002 - 01:47 pm     Been wracking my brain and I can't think of any other time..... hmmmmm |
Karuuna | Tuesday, July 02, 2002 - 01:57 pm     The boy scouts recite it at every meeting. I can't think of any others. |
Oregonfire | Tuesday, July 02, 2002 - 02:01 pm     I was accosted by a fundie today whilst parking my car--he said some very unflattering things about the Jewish faith, but I managed to walk away without losing my temper. I told him about an online quiz saying I was mostly Buddhist (forget about saying Neo-pagan unless I wanted to get doused with holy water!), but he said that was impossible because they are from a different culture. Out of all the religious groups, certain fervent members of this one in particular manage to really get under my skin. If you fervently believe anything, a whole logic sytem can be created around it, and I could just tell he was trying to engage me in a religious debate/conversion based on his convoluted, circular logic. But I guess if I'm really a Buddhist, I better keep a lid on my temper and be accepting of people who are annoyingly condesending, because they are everywhere, regardless of creed. I had a philosophy prof in college who was a secular humanist, and he would condescend to me as well. |
Max | Tuesday, July 02, 2002 - 02:13 pm     Oregon, tell him you'll be glad to meditate and pray for his enlightenment. Of course, you need to have a very centered, peaceful smile on your face at the time. Then, just walk away. I cannot stand people who proselytize, no matter what they are pedding. It's one thing to have a belief, it's quite another to try and shove it down other peoples' throats. |
Dahli | Tuesday, July 02, 2002 - 02:25 pm     Again I want to say how much this site means to me, just to be able to have these threads to read makes my day sometimes. I hear you Faerrygdds - I know what you're saying and Max - what a beautiful post... I was raised a Catholic and as soon as I could start to make my own decisions find my own way and ask questions I became a Baha'i - one of the teachings of the faith is 'independent investigation of the truth' that spoke to me bigtime! Many of the religions I have had contact with remind me of communism.... if it is so good and so true, why the scare tactics, coercion and heavy handedness... what are they so afraid of?? if the only way to keep people there is to lock them in how 'true' is it? On the other hand if your thing is good, won't people want to come and stay?? Without a large congregation the income decreases...sad but true, so much of organized religion is about power money and fear. |
Goatgirl | Tuesday, July 02, 2002 - 03:13 pm     Dahli I agree. When someone decides that they don't want to belong to a church or religion, it would be so cool if that group could just say: OK, be on your way and we hope you find what you are looking for, but we are going to keep on doing what we're doing since it works for us. Instead most often it is Their Way or No Way. And in my experience the same thing can happen not just when you reject a certain religion or church, but also if you already belong to it and believe in it, but question any part of it. That is how it felt in the church I grew up in. If you questioned, it wasn't viewed as a healthy exploration of your faith or the workings of that church, but instead like some evil force was leading you away and trying to take others with you by planting seeds of doubt. Within the church I mentioned earlier, they refer to themselves as "THE truth". How much clearer can that message be - you believe what they teach or you are just plain wrong. |
Faerygdds | Tuesday, July 02, 2002 - 05:55 pm     Ok... I have had LOTS of experience with angry Christians!!! No... I don't mean that to be mean, but it's just the way it is. This is how I deal with them... I explain to them very briefly that while I may not be religious, I am extremely spiritual. I say, "One of the teachings paramount to my belief system is that to hurt another is hurt oneself." I then say, "I know from years of debating religion that my spirituality is unbreakable, but if someone ever actually DID manage to break my faith... well... it would be extremely hurtful... and I would never EVER want to hurt another human in that way, so I prefer not to discuss religion." (If they persist, which, not sure why, they usually will) I go to say, "Now, because of my faith, you probably consider me "the enemy" in this litttle scenario. Keep this in mind.... you are not the first person to try to "save" (yes, I do the little quote in the air thing) me.... and I know much more about the history and philosophies or your religion than you understand of mine.... Now... do you REALLY want to go there???" MOST of the time higher logic and reason clicks in to the other person and they realize that I MAY actually know something that MIGHT actually make them change thier mind, and they drop it. Every once in a while they continue to try to convert me. The more persistent they become, the calmer I get and the more insistant that I get that I don't want to convert them, and they are never going to convert me, so let's please change the subject. To date.... I have only LOST it on ONE person.... you don't want to know how that went... let's just say this... when I say I know the history and philosophy of Christianity, I'm not kidding! I went to private Catholic HS and suffered through theology like any other parochial school student. So I know all my facts, dates, passages, etc. Information is knowledge and knowledge is power. Power is PERSONAL! One of us walked away questioning our faith.. and it wasn't me... and it was the WORST feeling I EVER had... It only takes me once to learn... If you don't believe in a "mainstream" religion... get used to being very Zen about those who feel the need to save you and thank them for caring about your spirit. It's really the BEST way, but if you get an "in your face - I WILL SAVE YOU" fundie... see above.  |
Squaredsc | Wednesday, July 03, 2002 - 11:11 am     max that was a great post. i don't consider myself religious but spiritual. i was also raised a catholic, went to parochial(sp) school for 1st thru 5th grade, then public school, and baptist church. needless to say i am just spiritual now. but i will try the test to see who i should be joined with. |
Faerygdds | Wednesday, July 03, 2002 - 11:12 am     oooh... let us know the results! inquisitive minds want to know |
Llkoolaid | Monday, July 08, 2002 - 09:33 pm     I am 100% Unitarian Universalism, what ever that is. |
Highdesertgal | Monday, July 08, 2002 - 09:57 pm     The only place I have heard adults asked to recite the Pledge of Allegiance was at a Naturalization ceremony, where foreigners became citizens. I don't remember a controversy amongst a very diverse group of people...but I guess none of them would feel in a position to refuse to say it, until maybe after they said it and became a citizen. What a conundrum! |
Kaili | Tuesday, July 09, 2002 - 07:12 am     I go to a Unitarian church on occasion and I love it there. I always hated "regular" church services where they read the Bible to you- it was always meaningless to me. I only went to one church like that- my grandfathers- a few times (mom is spiritual but doesn't need to go to church- feels a lot of church is social and to show other people that you're there). The UU church is very different- you learn about all types of religions and can pretty much take what you want from any of them. Everyone there has their own beliefs basically. I would love to hear their take on the pledge issue. Anyway, don't want to get too far into religion and what a UU is in the pledge thread so I will now quietly step back... |
Gail | Monday, July 15, 2002 - 03:05 pm     Here is something I received in my email today. Thought it was pretty good. "The Pledge of Allegiance - Senator John McCain From a speech made by Capt. John S. McCain, US, (Ret) who represents Arizona in the U.S. Senate: As you may know, I spent five and one half years as a prisoner of war during the Vietnam War. In the early years of our imprisonment, the NVA kept us in solitary confinement or two or three to a cell. In 1971 the NVA moved us from these conditions of isolation into large rooms with as many as 30 to 40 men to a room. This was, as you can imagine, a wonderful change and was a direct result of the efforts of millions of Americans on behalf of a few hundred POWs 10,000 miles from home. One of the men who moved into my room was a young man named Mike Christian. Mike came from a small town near Selma, Alabama. He didn't wear a pair of shoes until he was 13 years old. At 17, he enlisted in the US Navy. He later earned a commission by going to Officer Training School. Then he became a Naval Flight Officer and was shot down and captured in 1967. Mike had a keen and deep appreciation of the opportunities this country and our military provide for people who want to work and want to succeed. As part of the change in treatment, the Vietnamese allowed some prisoners to receive packages from home. In some of these packages were handkerchiefs, scarves and other items of clothing. Mike got himself a bamboo needle. Over a period of a couple of months, he created an American flag and sewed on the inside of his shirt. Every afternoon, before we had a bowl of soup, we would hang Mike's shirt on the wall of the cell and say the Pledge of Allegiance. I know the Pledge of Allegiance may not seem the most important part of our day now, but I can assure you that in that stark cell it was indeed the most important and meaningful event. One day the Vietnamese searched our cell, as they did periodically, and discovered Mike's shirt with the flag sewn inside, and removed it. That evening they returned, opened the door of the cell, and for the benefit of all of us, beat Mike Christian severely for the next couple of hours. Then, they opened the door of the cell and threw him in. We cleaned him up as well as we could. The cell in which we lived had a concrete slab in the middle on which we slept. Four naked light bulbs hung in each corner of the room. As I said, we tried to clean up Mike as well as we could. After the excitement died down, I looked in the corner of the room, and sitting there beneath that dim light bulb with a piece of red cloth, another shirt and his bamboo needle, was my friend, Mike Christian. He was sitting there with his eyes almost shut from the beating he had received, making another American flag. He was not making the flag because it made Mike Christian feel better. He was making that flag because he knew how important it was to us to be able to Pledge our allegiance to our flag and country. So the next time you say the Pledge of Allegiance, you must never forget the sacrifice and courage that thousands of Americans have made to build our nation and promote freedom around the world. You must remember our duty, our honor, and our country. "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." |
Twiggyish | Monday, July 15, 2002 - 03:24 pm     Wow, that's something. (sniffing) |
Loppes | Monday, July 15, 2002 - 11:33 pm     Gail, I am making my way around the folders. I just read your post. Yesterday eevening I watched a special by Robin Williams. I had to share a little joke he made, after I read your last line which refers to "one nation under God". Last night Williams said something like, "We are one nation but under Canada and above Mexico" It was a joke, I hope I didn't offend you, as what McCaine said is very moving. Lon |
Gail | Tuesday, July 16, 2002 - 03:42 am     I'm not offended. |
Bridgetlovesbb | Saturday, August 10, 2002 - 10:37 am     woo hoo! im 100% Jehovahs witness! LOL its accurate! |
Gentoo | Friday, September 20, 2002 - 09:59 pm     I just read through this somewhat interesting thread. Personally, and obviously to those who've read my posts before, I'm all for this decision. People shouldn't be forced to speak an endorsement of religion when they are non or anti-religious. It may be true that children can opt out of the pledge, or it may not be so true in some areas of the country. It is probably not true that atheist teachers can opt out. I found it interesting that somebody brought up the "in god we trust" on the money thing. It wasn't originally "in god we trust" either. Finally, I found it interesting that people brought up the swearing in of testimony in courts. I live in Canada, where we also have state-directed worship - our constitution and national anthem both include God. But here, you have a choice, you can swear or affirm. Non-christians will usually affirm. No bible is needed. You just affirm to tell the truth. Affirmation is a fairly recent thing. 40 years ago people who were not god fearing were not allowed to testify. It was thought that without the fear of god and threat of hell for their lies, they wouldn't be honest. |
|