Archive through September 17, 2002
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TV ClubHouse: Archive: Iraq will allow full weapons inspection!!!!! (ARCHIVE): Archive through September 17, 2002

Hillbilly

Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 01:08 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Oh Karuuuuuuuuuuuuuuna.. please answer questons 1-4 above! :)

Faerygdds

Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 01:16 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Hill... ok.. I'll take your test... I'm glad you find it fascinating lol

1. Evil is a characteristic defined by individuals. It is usually used when a person has morals and beliefs contrary to those of the person using the classification.

1a. Suffice to say it would take a lot! I find people to be sociopathic, psychopatic, neurotic, but evil... well... that's just a horse of a different color that I don't buy into.

2. No... I can't off the top of my head think of a person that would be considered evil. I'll mull this one over while I finish the rest of the post and come back to it at the end. Nope... still don't believe in evil.

3. No... I don't think people are evil. True evil is something that I believe should be classified only by a God or Gods (whichever one you belive in )

4. I don't believe there is "evil" in the world. People do bad things... people do IMMORAL things, but again... evil... true evil is something that should should be judged by higher powers, and I am but a mere mortal in a chaotic world. FOr me to classify something as evil would be to put myself above others... and that is something I try to never do.

it goes along with my whole argument of the only difference between a freedom fighter and a terrorist is perpective. It really is an individual perception. I don't believe in it.. I think horrbile and tragic things can happen to very good people and it not be evil.

I used to believe in evil, but at some point in my ife I realized that you have to have opposites in the world... you have to have an up and a down, a black and a white... a good and a bad... happiness and sorrow... but I can't believe that the negative aspect of things come to pass as evil...

If I believed that, then a certain 22 year old boy would be considered evil for taking 4 years of my life and turning them into torture (car accident)... fact is... the kid was not evil, nor was the act of running that light... it was a tragic accident that just happened. I leave evil up to the "powers that be".

I hope that helps... let me know if you want to know anything else... I'm not insulted or anything... I love when people get inquisitive...

:)

Hillbilly

Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 01:27 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Thanks for answering...i really didn't mean for it to look like a test. :) I guess I'm wondering now how you define 'immoral'?

By the way, I would not consider something that was an accident as evil either.

I actually started an internet search in the last hour to try to determine how most would define the term 'evil'. It has been really interesting.

I believe that for a person to believe in 'evil', they must also believe in God and use His word as the guide to define evil. Would you agree or not agree with this...that 'evil' is a Christian belief?

So, no matter what you think of Bush Jr., there is nothing he could do to make you consider him evil? (folks...please don't use her answers as a means to bash her...this is a DISCUSSION not an ARGUMENT thread...I am also NOT trying to start another proBush or antiBush argument)

Karuuna

Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 01:28 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
LOL, Hillbilly ,that works so much better in chat, when my computer sounds out every "u" in pronouncing my name!


1 - Evil to me is a behavior or person who is truly malevolent, acting on pure hatred, and lacks any other motivation. Since I believe all hatred, anger and destructiveness spring from pain or fear, evil is therefore not possible.

1a. - I would never consider a person evil. Not even Hitler. (Hold those tomatoes!) As long as y'all are reading, you might try reading a wonderful work by German psychiatrist Alice Miller (and the name escapes me at the moment, but I'll look it up later); who analyzes Hitler's youth, and explains his later behavior in that context.

I read this book because my own father was one of the aforementioned Hitler youth, and later a young Nazi soldier (at 14). It gave me a tremendous amount of insight into how he became the person he did. Some people would call him evil. In seeing how he grew up, what he experienced, I see how those early events devastated and corrupted the innocent child he once was.

2 - No. I think people who do destructive things are damaged. It may be because of organic (brain) damage or dysfunction. It may be because they have experienced tragic or traumatic events.

3 - see above. I do not believe there are any truly evil people.

4 - No. I believe there are destructive behaviors, actions that appear to be evil, but not true evil as I have defined it above.

I realize my answers come from my faith/spiritual orientation; and without that foundation, may seem a little facile. I'm willing to explain further, if you're interested.

Hillbilly

Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 01:33 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
<Hillbilly wonders where Karuuna got chat software that speaks?>

Actually, in my internet search, I have discovered that there has been a lot of discussion on how one should define evil. Some have suggested using Depravity Scales. I guess my circle of family, acquaintances, and friends all share a belief in evil.

I think this is interesting.

Karuuna

Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 01:35 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Hillbilly wrote:

<<I believe that for a person to believe in 'evil', they must also believe in God and use His word as the guide to define evil. Would you agree or not agree with this...that 'evil' is a Christian belief? >>

I think this is fair, as long as you understand that someone can "believe in God" and "Her" word and not believe in evil. I would argue that the belief in evil is associated with a particular subset of Christians, not all Christians.

<<So, no matter what you think of Bush Jr., there is nothing he could do to make you consider him evil?>>

Nope. Extremely misguided, but not evil.

Hillbilly

Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 01:36 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
<hillbilly still wants to know about the chat software that speaks! :(>

Hillbilly

Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 01:40 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
<okay...I don't really know how to say this without it sounding tacky...so please remember I'm asking this simply out of curiousity.>

So...would it be fair to say that you just consider Hitler, a man who murdered 6 million jews, an extremely misguided man? How would you classify someone who does something like this?

Faerygdds

Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 01:44 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Can do a ditto on what karuuna posted above???

I would agree that if your circle of influence believes in evil, then you tend to believe in it.

Now... I define immoral behavior as bahavior which is contrary to a person's morals... FOR EXAMPLE...

Clinton was immoral when he accepted the BJ form Monica. He is immoral NOT because *I* belive in monogamy, but because HE is a Christian and one of the commandments says thou shalt not commit adultery.

I don't want to get into the Christian debate as I am not one. Which has colored MY observations in the world. I am Pagan... and part of my ideas stem from the fervent belief that all things in nature and humanity must remain in balance. So... There has to be both sides - good and bad... I call it karma...

And Karuuna -

<<So, no matter what you think of Bush Jr., there is nothing he could do to make you consider him evil?>>

Nope. Extremely misguided, but not evil.


I have to second this.. I laughed when I read it, but I have to second it wholeheartedly...

BTW Karuuna.. I loved your answers!

Twiggyish

Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 01:45 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I'm trying to put this in a frame of reference.

I believe Hitler is the epitome of evil, or the definition of it. If we use him as the model for evil, you can then understand our view.

So saying, I cannot think of a model for good, for your reference. Unless you worship the Goddess. (Trying to remember what I know of Wiccan) The Goddess is good and perfection. In my reference, God is good and perfection.

Can you see where Saddam would be considered evil? (Using the references I mentioned?)

Hillbilly

Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 01:48 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
<hillbilly showing his ignorance>
Is Pagan the same thing as Wiccan?

Twiggyish

Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 01:51 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I believe it is one of many religions, Hillbilly.
Just trying to use a reference for "good".

Faerygdds

Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 01:51 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Twiggy... what do you mean by a model of good... no person is wholely good or wholely bad...

I think one of the most SELFLESS people in my lifetime was Mother Teresa... But is selflessness the model of good??? no... see I guess the concept is that it isn't my judgement to make! People are people and they do good things and bad things as defined by societal norms. To make a judgment about a person's character is to put yourself in a position above others to have the AUTHORITY to judge them... and simply.. I don't do that...

I am no better or no worse than every other human on the planet. Does that make sense???

Twiggyish

Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 01:53 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Well I was trying to show the opposite end of evil. So, for that model, I would say Mother Teresa is a good reference.

Faerygdds

Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 01:54 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Got it backwards Twiggy...

Pagan is the general classification, Wiccan would be more defined... some Pagan philisophies (I prefer not to use the word religion) - Bhuddist, Wiccan, Druidic, Dianic, Shamanic... and many many others...

Liken it unto - Christian is the generalization, within that there are Baptists, Catholics, Presbyterians, etc...

Technically I am a Neo-Pagan because I belive things from different systems... my beliefs are primarily Bhuddist, Wiccan, and Shamanic.

edited to add: I was baptized and raised Catholic for most of my life...

Karuuna

Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 01:57 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
LOL, Hillbilly, re the chat software, get a Mac. Actually, I think it's available for Mirc too, but it's built into ircle, which is essentially Mirc for the Mac.

I think Hitler was an extremely damaged and hateful individual. I think what he did was horrific, and perhaps unforgiveable (but that's not up to me). I have visited Auschwitz and Dachau, and weeped at the horror, the devastation. I almost don't have words for it -- it was something I could hardly bear, so overwhelming.

But here is a conundrum for you. My parents grew up in eastern Europe, born in the early 1930's, and lived thru the devastation of WWII first hand. They and their families were far more terrified of Stalin and his army than they were of Hitler. Their families considered themselves Christians (as Hitler considered himself), and they considered Stalin far more evil than Hitler. However, the US considered Stalin as our ally against evil. Stalin was responsible for the murder of more people than Hitler. Would you consider Stalin evil as well? Or was his mass murder okay 'cause he was fighting a mass murderer? Or perhaps because he was an ally of the US?

It gets very complicated I think, and like Faery said, sometimes it's all a matter of perspective....

Karuuna

Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 01:58 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Thanks Faery, for your kind words about my thoughts. I appreciate that!

Twiggyish

Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 01:58 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Ok, well I've seen where it's listed separate from Wicca. But, as I said, I'm only trying to remember what I know.

The point is there are references you can use to define evil and good.
I'm leaving this conversation. I gave it a my best try.

Faerygdds

Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 02:03 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Twiggy.. don't run off.. I wasn't trying to be agressive or intimidating.. just said you got it backkwards... it's a simple error... HEY! at least you knew SOMETHING about it and didn't call me a devil worshiper! :)

Karunna... I visited Dachau when I was 13 (1984). when you were there... could you still smell THAT smell??? UGH... made me sick all by itself.. then when I realized WHAT I was smelling... I lost my lunch! It was a sad sad time in history - really tragic!

Faerygdds

Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 02:05 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
OH!!!! I thought of someTHING I consider evil!!!!!!! CHOCOLATE CAKE!!!!!!!

No.. I'm not being sarcastic... it is truly evil... it smells all sweet and wonderful... it calls to you... "Eat me! Eat Me!" But if I gave in it would really hurt me!(diabetic)

that's it Hill... Chocolate cake is EVIL!!! :)

Hillbilly

Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 02:05 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Faery, Karuuna...thank you for your answers. I think knowing WHY a person believes the way they do helps to get a perspective. This has been so interesting and educational.


PS Yes...I do believe Stalin was EVIL too. Anyone who purposefully and intentionally, with hatred in their heart, murders innocent people are evil for me.

Karuuna

Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 02:16 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Twiggy - I'm sorry you're leaving, I hope I haven't insulted you in some way. :(

I think all of us make distinctions between good and bad behavior, but perhaps not to the same extreme, as your labels of good vs evil people. They are different perspectives, and they can't fit neatly into each other. But perhaps we can try to understand each other, without feeling like we have to change each other's minds about anything.

I would personally consider the actions of Mother Teresa good, a model of selflessness. Some have jokingly told me I aspire to that. Personally, I think I'm not capable of it, I admit to being quite selfish, and, um, sometimes proud of it.

I would consider the actions of Hussein bad - in that they are destructive to other human beings. I don't consider Hussein evil, per se.

At the same time, I'm also very aware that our lives, and our brains effect how we are, and who we turn out to be. I don't think it's all a matter of simple choice. I only know from my own experience. I don't believe that my father, raised in a different environment in his childhood - free from war, from seeing his own mother and sisters raped by Stalin's soldiers when he was only 8, from being raised in the hatefulness of Der HitlerJugend from the age of 10 to 14 - would have turned out the way he did. In spite of all that, he still retained some remarkably gentle qualities. He was a person who would risk running out on the interstate to save a dog who had been hit by a car. But because of how he had been damaged by life, he was incapable of offering that kind of compassion to human beings, and in fact, was quite destructive to other people...

Karuuna

Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 02:18 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Okay, Hillbilly, just one more question for you...

Since we knew what Stalin was up to, yet claimed him as our ally, thus enabling him to murder even more people, were we evil as well?

Karuuna

Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 02:25 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Faery - I was 16 when I visited Dachau, that was back in 1975... I remember the smell, the pictures, the sight of the ovens, the pits that were once mass graves and standing in a gas chamber thinking what it must have been like to be packed in there like sardines, naked and waiting for death...

I also remember driving across East Germany to reach West Berlin, when one of the other students dared to take a picture of a guard tower. Our bus was stopped, and we were forced out, made to line up on the side of the road, while the film was ripped out of all of our cameras, and machine guns were waved in our faces. Our meager German was not enough to understand what the angry guards were yelling at us, but we knew it was bad, and many of us thought those might be our last days on earth...

Hillbilly

Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 02:26 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
It would seem that we were certainly an accessory, definitely. However, most of my WWII study has been with Hitler and the Third Reich. I'm sure there are many instances in history and today where the US has been/is duplicitious. Its the age old question, Does the end justify the means? And no...I don't have an answer about what should be done.