Archive through September 17, 2002
TV ClubHouse: Archive: Iraq will allow full weapons inspection!!!!! (ARCHIVE):
Archive through September 17, 2002
Azriel | Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 08:34 am     Adven, usually any mention of Hitler kills a conversation, but in this case, historically, there isn't a better analogy. Saddam has already demonstrated that he will practice ethnic cleansing in his regime. We have 10 years of brutal, sadistic proof that he is a mad man on the same scale as Hitler. |
Twiggyish | Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 08:38 am     Az, I think so, too. It's a frightening thought! |
Adven | Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 09:07 am     Faery, I'll stand by my Hitler/Saddam comparison. In regard to this particular argument, I think it applies. As for proof of Saddam's capabilities and intentions, Margie, I would invite you to read "Brighter Than the Baghdad Sun" by Shyam Bhatia and Daniel McGrory, two well-respected experts on the Middle East and award-winning journalists to boot. No, they don't have a picture of a nuclear missile with "Destination: Washington" written on it, but they did interview hundreds of the some 20,000 technicians and scientists involved in Iraq's nuclear weapons program and a number of people who had been in Saddam's inner circle. The message they send is singular: Iraq is determined to develop weapons of mass destruction to use on the US, has already had a significant hand in many terrorist activities aimed at the US, including 9/11, and will likely continue to use terrorist networks to deliver these weapons so that their use can't easily be traced back to them. There are also a wealth of documents available at university libraries and even on the internet that all point conclusively to this. I would also assume that US intelligence has gathered other information not available to the public that is driving the current administration's position in this regard. To me, it is more likely that the US government has alarming information that they feel needs to be acted on quickly, rather than that they are a bunch of cowboys with too much testosterone coursing through their veins and eager to pick a fight. Yes, North Korea poses a potential threat, as do a number of other countries, but, to my knowledge, only Iraq has made it's ambitions abundantly clear and is on the threshold of realizing those ambitions. |
Hillbilly | Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 09:16 am     Faerygdds...are you really trying to imply that members of the Replublican party in the USA are nazis? That's what is sounds like to me. Just because Hitler called his party 'republican' doesn't mean it equates to American republicans. Please advise. |
Hillbilly | Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 09:23 am     I would like to recommend a book called 'The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich' by William Schirrer if anyone wants to know the real story behind Hitler, his ascent to power, and the events of World War II. I think you will find it extremely informative and will dispel much misinformation that is tossed around about Hitler and his party and their beliefs. Anyone who would claim that Hitler was brilliant certainly is cause for concern. In my opinion, Hitler WAS a madman. Anyone who would claim that the extermination of 6 million jews in such horrific fashion and the human (inhumane) experiments done on human beings was the work of a sane and rational man is way off base and certainly needs a refresher course on WWII history and politics. Hitler was not brilliant. Hitler was EVIL. Saddam Hussein is EVIL. |
Whowhere | Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 09:41 am     I would like to thank, Goddessatlaw, Maris, Hillbilly, Adven (loved that last post), Azriel and Twiggy, etc. for continuing this discussion with my same view point. I've given up. Especially now, considering some are comparing Hitler to Bush. what-EVER! <mod> |
Whowhere | Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 09:50 am     Margie - Maris - my bad. I DID read your posts and have corrected mine. It was an honest mistake. PS: I didn't know I was bashing. |
Faerygdds | Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 09:52 am     <mod> And Hillbilly... I don't need to read a book to find out what happened during the reign of Hitler.. I can ask my grandmother in-law... am former MEMBER of Hitler's youth... or I can read the diary and manuscripts from her husband... a man who was forced into the SS lest his family be murdered. And if you want to compare the Rupublican Nationalist Party and the Republicans here in the US... you MIGHT find startling similarities. Now... I will say that no one has come right out and called the US republicans Nazis, but I have read nad heard enough about the philosphies and tactics taken by the Nazi's of WWII... and again.. I have found startling similarites. That being said... Believe whatever you want to believe, but do know this.. Hitler WAS brilliant... He was PSYCHOTIC, but he was also BRILLIANT! And as I have said MANY MANY times before... true evil lies within your own heart... if you find evil in another... then you need to look within yourself as otherwise... you would not be able to recognize it for what it is! I don't think Saddam is evil.... psychotic... definitely... sociopathic... possibly, but NOT evil... evil is a term used to evoke emotion rather than reason... Funny... most people say that women shouldn't be in he white house because they get PMS and react on emotion rather than think logically... funny... seems to me that Bush has been PMSing a LOT lately... If he were thinking reasonably... he would push for getting those inspectors in TODAY and then see if we need to invade, but the bottom line is that he doesn't want enforcement of the UN's laws... after all... aren't they (according to him) irrelavent anyway??? What Bush wants is war... and you know what... he's going to push to get it... so enjoy your civil liberties and your life while you have them... And enjoy the lives of the teenagers near adulthood while you still have them... for tomorrow.. they may be on the front line of yet another war dying for the "values" of Bush and HIS regime! Sorry if I seem angry, but I am... I am tired of us UGLY Americans thinking we are the enforcers of the world's problems... thinking that WE have to solve the world's conundrums... I'm tired of this country sacrificing it's YOUTH to these causes... |
Hillbilly | Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 10:00 am     Wow, Faery...that's interesting. Do you happen to have access to these diary and manuscripts now? I would love to read them but I'm sure that's not possible. I'm a WWII history buff. Have you considered having them translated and published? Also, do you happen to know what rank or how high up your grandfather-in-law was? Would you or could you share what your grandmother-in-law has told you. You should document these things before the people pass on and the knowledge is lost. Regarding the book recommendation, I still think you would find it interesting. While you have access to a very personal view, the book provides information on a much more operational and world political view, with information that was captured before the nazi party had the opportunity to destroy it. Very detailed information about how they selected the method of extermination, the types of human experiments that were conducted, etc. And I stand by what I say...Hitler was not brilliant. He lost afterall. He was EVIL. Saddam has proven his willingness and has openly admitted to using chemical weapons on Iran during the Iraq-Iran war, and on his own people. He is EVIL. |
Jville | Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 10:00 am     Perhaps you should find another country to live in if this one angers you so. We wouldn't want you to have to tolerate OUR ugliness any longer than necessary. <mod - this was extremely inappropriate, and if you continue in this vein, your account will be removed> |
Marysafan | Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 10:07 am     I don't see this as a partisan issue. I have been in contact with some of our representatives in the region. They don't seem to be hell bent on getting in a pissing match with a madman either. ...and for all the support people seem to have for this...I am not hearing of long lines at the recruiters offices. Have they started sending their sons and daughters to sign up yet?..or are they waiting for more proof. All I am saying is talk is cheap. |
Sbw | Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 10:07 am     Well, if I have to join Bush's regime or Hussein's regime, I will take the Bush regime anyday! |
Marysafan | Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 10:11 am     One more thing...discussion on this site has always been free flowing, but respectful. Personal attacks on posters are not welcome or permitted. We are all friends here...regardless of our viewpoints. Let's keep it that way. |
Jville | Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 10:13 am     Maris, I read your posts and Who's too. What happened? Whowhere has been in these discussions before and I'm confused as to what was said that made you so mad. Just curious..... |
Twiggyish | Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 10:17 am     I don't want to see any lives sacrificed, however, our country CANNOT let this go. Second, Hitler murdered 6 million innocent lives. There is no way this monster could be called brilliant. If we learn anything from history, it's that we can't let another monster like him gain power or weapons. At first, I was very skeptical of Bush's intentions, but the news lately convinced me to change my opinion. You say America should not be involved. What other country has the power to make a difference? Can you imagine if a man like Saddam had no opposing forces strong enough to fight him? |
Moderator | Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 10:21 am     Folks - let me remind you that the point is to discuss the issues, not attack other posters for disagreeing with you. The moderators of this board will NOT tolerate insults aimed at other posters. (K) |
Jville | Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 10:27 am     Well, call me oversensitive if you will, but I am offended and do consider it a personal attack when the man I voted for as President is compared to the likes of Adolph Hitler. |
Faerygdds | Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 10:28 am     <mod> I was born and raised a proud American. My uncle is a retired Colonel in the Army.. My husband is a former soldier who served during the cold war. What ANGERS me is not the philosphy this country was born from but it's CURRENT one! For those that think I'm a die hard democrat... well.. I was Reagan girl during the 80's... I was a Bush supprter (sr.) until he went into Iraq and didn't finish the job then... I thought Clinton was pretty much.. well.. a joke... but I supported him... but I DO NOT support Bush Jr! So as you see, most of my life I have not been one party or the other. I have a deep respect for this country, and excuse me, but I LIKE my freedoms. I am in NO hurry to see that flushed down the perverbial toilet for the whims of a president who wants to bully the world into his limited scope of what HE thinks is morally right and just. Sorry... not willing to watch our young soldiers die by the hands of ignorance... I will continue to shour from the rooftops until someone listens and sees. Hillbilly... I actually think I may have read that book when I was younger, but would have to read the first chapter to be sure. Somethng my grandfather in-law told my husband many many years ago... If you ever see a leader who is yelling about evil and moral rather than showing facts... then you need to wonder what the shouter is hiding and what he's really up to. He made my husband promise to never let another "Hitler" happen because he (like so many before him) was blinded by the words and emotion. No... you didn't read wrong above... I think we should have removed Saddam 10 years ago... bt guess what??? Sr BLEW IT! And I'm just not willing to sacrifice MORE innocent American solidiers to a cause that should have been taken care of. We had our shot at Saddam and we blew it.. and until he gives us a viable reason to go in and take him out.. I will not support an invasion... If you want to use force... send in the black ops to take him out like they did Noreiga... we don't need another war! |
Margie | Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 10:35 am     Adven, the Bush administration cleared Iraq in any connection with September 11th. They initially tried to find a connection and then had to admit there was none. If this administration had evidence why wouldn't they use it? If the evidence is so clearly available to Joe Schmo on the street, you would think the Bush administration would have just a bit to offer the American public. This "eat it, I'll explain what it is later" viewpoint drives me insane. North Korea poses a potentially much more serious threat than Iraq, and they have already threatened us in the past. I'm not saying we need to go after either one of these countries right now -- I am also not saying we shouldn't. What I am saying is that before I decide to support an invasion, I want to know it's absolutely necessary. I want to know we are doing the right thing BEFORE the casualty lists start rolling in. Jville, America, love it or leave it? LOL If our founding fathers thought that way about criticism of the government we'd all still be singing God Save the Queen. |
Hillbilly | Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 10:36 am     Okay, this is off topic. Faery...I very much respect that you at least HAVE an opinion about these things. I have coworkers who don't have a clue about what all is going on. Back to the diary and manuscripts....these are valuable records to an era that is slowly fading from collective memory. I really encourage you and your husband to contact an historical museum about preserving these documents. |
Faerygdds | Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 12:11 pm     Hill... these documents ar the only remains that he got after his grandfather died... i doubt I could gt him to relinquish them for any reason... But if you would like to discuss their contents... my e-mail is on the message map and I will reply... Historically though... Hitler was very indisideous rather than overt... maybe it would be better to compare Saddam to say.... Napolean... yeah... he was pompous, and was not isideous, but overt... I'll buy that one lol... eating lunch with buffalo wing fingers... later... OH... I don't know what rank Opa was... I onlyheard it once (in German) and I said... huh? and my hubby said... he was an officer when he was held POW in Russia. I'll find out though... |
Hillbilly | Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 12:19 pm     Faery...I'm not talking about GIVING them to a museum (I would have them in a safe deposit box myself). An historical museum would be able to give you advice on how to protect the documents (fragile paper and ink) and archive the documents on your own. They should be able to help you protect the paper from aging and the ink/pencil from fading. You might also consider having them copied to microfilm/microfiche like they are doing with the older census records to preserve the content. PS Hitler's beliefs and policies were actually published in a book 'Mein Kampf' before he ever came to power. His policies were never a secret. If anyone had taken the time to read his book, they would know what he was about. He was not covert about his intentions. He played on the emotions of a decimated German population after WWI. Their economy was in ruins (their fault...they started WWI) and were under the heavy burden of war reparations. The people were starving and destitute so they opted to follow a leader they knew was bad but didn't care. Hitler was a con artist who took advantage of the populations weakness. His extermination of 6 million people and ghastly human experiments are clearly the work of an EVIL man. I don't have to be evil to recognize evil. I don't have to be a murderer to recognize a murderer. |
Faerygdds | Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 12:40 pm     LOL @ Hill... I still don't like to label ppl as evil or not evil... that is for the Gods to decide, not a lowly human like myself... I misunderstood... a product of reading while nashing buffalo wings... I will have him do that though! He's translated it all once before, but his EXwife destroyed it because "she didn't want to remember that period of history" (don't ask my what I think of HER... it's NOT pretty ) What I meant by insideous was they way he accomplished getting the country behind him in the beginning. THAT was insideous.. you can look at the whole thing... once the world recognized what was happening and say it was overt, but if you knew how it all started - very slowly... I think you would change your mind. He really was brilliant -- still psychotic, but very very smart... Danielle (from BB) would call him the devil -- he was just that good at being bad! I don't want to compare Saddam to Hitler because, frankly.. a) I don't want to give him that kind of credit... seeing as b) Hitler was his self procaimed hero and I don't want him to get what he wants... But now... I think I can live with comparing him to Napolean..... and frankly... everytime I say it.. it makes me giggle! lol And... oh... a murder is one who murders... that's an act... so you don't have to have that quality to know one... he commits the act, therefore he is... evil on the other hand is a characteristic... Nice try on the rebuttal, but you KNOW I had to go there buddy! BTW.. I've been called a lot of things since I started speaking my mind aout all these issues... in one day alone I was called: A conservative, a liberal, a tree hugger, a facist, a communist, and a hopless optimist... I think I finally figured out what I am -- IF you should feel the need to "classify" a human... please... classify me as a homosaphien... it's the only one that totally fits |
Hillbilly | Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 12:52 pm     Okay...I have a few questions for you, Faery. 1. What is your definition of evil? 1.a What would it take for you to consider a person evil? 2. Is there anyone living or dead who you would classify as evil? Why or why not? 3. If not, do you just not believe that there are evil people? 4. Do you believe or not believe that there is evil in the world? I'm not be facetious...i think this is interesting. I've never met anyone who did not believe in evil. |
Karuuna | Tuesday, September 17, 2002 - 01:05 pm     well, hillbilly, now you've met two.  |
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