Archive through September 23, 2002
TV ClubHouse: Archive: Child Abuse Case in Indiana Caught on Tape:
Archive through September 23, 2002
Karuuna | Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 03:44 pm     Bo - our conversation seems to be getting confused about criminal law and child abuse law. If I have been unclear, I apologize, and let me try again. There are several states, as we've discussed, that include the "closed fist" definition as either part of a legal definition of child abuse via statute OR in their reporting requirements for child abuse. Note that the Dept of Health and Human Services annually issues a state by state compilation of child abuse reporting requirements. They show 5 states with either statutes or reporting requirements that include hitting with a closed fist. However, this woman is charged with felony battery - the same charge someone would make against you if you walked up to them and punched them (closed fist attack). She has NOT been charged with child abuse. EVERY state does have laws against battery that would include such an attack. For your information, battery does NOT require proof of injury. The videotape clearly shows evidence of battery-- slapping, beating, hair pulling, shaking, throwing the child and closed fist hitting. I can't be any more clear than that. |
Hillbilly | Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 03:56 pm     Okay...this gal has turned herself in...but they still don't have the little gal. Shouldn't someone from the state be checking this little gal instead of taking the word of this attorney and this woman's family that the gal is okay? |
Karuuna | Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 03:56 pm     Rig - the Community Child Protection Initiative came out of the Child Welfare Project of the National Conference of State Legislatures (headquarters in Denver & Washington DC) in the late 90s, as a response to increased Federal requirements in investigating child abuse. This is the site of the original 4 test cities: Child Protection Clearinghouse http://www.cssp.org/cpc.html This is the site for Arizona Family Builders, tho it's not terribly informative... you can call for a copy of their study. http://www.de.state.az.us/links/preserve/annual.htm |
Hillbilly | Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 04:04 pm     They just reported that they do have the little gal and she's being checked out at the hospital. |
Denecee | Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 06:41 pm     If I ever see somebody beating their child or a child like that women did, I will not look the other way. If I had been the one taping that scene, I would have ran to the vehicle and intervened. I would love to beat the daylights out of that woman, but that wouldn't help the liitle girl and would probably just get me into jail. I think I would run up to the lady and ask her if she needed me to call 911. She would say no probably and I would tell her that the police have already been called because that is the first thing that needed to be done. The woman has an anger management problem big time and needs to be hospitalized. |
Bohawkins | Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 12:33 am     Karuuna -- Yes, all states have laws prohibiting battery. However, my point is that parents in all states, and in some states also teachers, are given special rights concerning hitting children which grants them immunity from prosecution for the same acts which would constitute battery for anyone else. Some states do specifically preclude certain acts (such as closed fist striking) from that immunity. Yes, the mother has been charged. However, that does not mean that the charge is a valid one. That is the prosecutors venue to bring charges which they think are appropriate. Luckily, here in America we have a court system where a charge is not a conviction, and the mother, right now, is innocent until proven guilty. That is why she has a defense attorney. We will find out the truth when any evidence submitted is cross-examined. The case must be tried as to fact (the jury's responsibility), and as to law (the judges responsibility). I have tried to point out to you that the facts may not be as they appear on the surface from a 15 second video, and the law may not permit conviction of a parent based on whatever are proven are the true facts of her actions on that day. The jury cannot make new law based on their emotional response to the situation. Incidently, while battery does not require injury, without damage to the other person, the charges seldom carry much weight. Thank goodness we don't live in a society where such protections are not available to all citizens. If she is guilty, then she should be dealt with appropriately. Otherwise, she should not be punished, and right now she is innocent. It will be interesting to see how it plays out in the system. |
Northstar | Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 01:40 am     Bo, thank you. I've spent time reading your convincing arguments and must agree on many points. Foremost, this mother is innocent until proven guilty in our system, and this system is one of many reasons that I'm very grateful I live in this country. And honestly, I am finding it very, very challenging to move past my initial response to the tape. So for now, let's just say I'm glad I won't be facing the question, "Do you believe you can remain an impartial juror throughout this trial, listening only to the facts and following the Judge's orders?". Maybe it'll be different for me tomorrow. |
Halfunit | Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 08:45 am     I have seen the first press conference with this mother, and am now watching her live right now. I am no expert but this woman seems to have issues. She may just be nervous, but she comes across as not being all together. She left Indiana, went to Maryland, and had her daughter checked out by a doctor in New Jersey, and then returned to Indiana to turn herself in? She keeps saying that she knew she'd come across being bad, being "what she is". And that "being what I am, I have minimal rights". What exactly IS she? (Aside from an accused abuser.) Her speech and thoughts just seem to jump around and she rambles... almost as if she is sedated... However, she did admit that she hit her child's backside, pulled her hair, and thumped her daughters' head with her fist because she was having a bad day. She is willing to go to jail for 3 years for what she did. Anyone else watching this? |
Hillbilly | Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 09:07 am     Half She is an Irish Traveler...I think that's similar to what used to be migrant workers. They are folks who move or follow the work. They have no permanent place of residence. Historically, migrant workers have been treated badly. Have you ever seen or read 'The Grapes of Wrath'? I actually came away with a different impression than you, Half. This woman seemed truly remorseful, took full blame, admitted what she did was wrong and horrible, and said she would do whatever was required to make sure Martha wasn't punished for what her mother did even if that meant never being near the child again as long as Martha was with folks she knew. What more can you ask of a person. She said she would separate from her husband and stay away, if they would give the child to her father. This woman loves that baby. Maybe, I'm a pushover but I think I would hope they give her probation, return the daughter on condition of very close supervision, and family parenting and counseling sessions. I would like to see this family stay together if possible. |
Halfunit | Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 09:35 am     H.B., I agree that she is stepping up to the plate and taking responsibility, which isn't the easiest thing to do in front of the world, but I have to wonder if it's only due to being caught. Would she truly be this sorry if the episode was not made public? My opinion is no, today would just be another day in that family's life. If this truly is an isolated incident, then I do hope that the family stays together. I didn't want my above post to seem as if I was judging this woman as a wicked witch - I'm not capable of doing that. Something just didn't seem "right" in what she was saying, but that's just me. And yes, I am cynical and jaded when it comes to the boo-hooing of suspects. Hard not to be when you live with law enforcement and you hear about so much "bad" and then everyone involved is "sorry". Thanks for filling me in on "what" she is... While I've never read "The Grapes of Wrath", I am familiar with migrant workers, gypsies, etc. Everyone has faults, and mine is probably being pre-judgemental with damning evidence (and sometimes too opinionated?? )... I'm trying to be cautiously optimistic about this... |
Hillbilly | Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 10:27 am     I would expect that the little gal was xrayed to look for previous injury and to see if there is evidence of continuing abuse. But if even the Child Welfare doctors looked and said this child is okay then what can you say. I'm not saying just turn the little gal over and that's it. I would expect close family supervision by social services to ensure that things are being handled properly. As for her English...she stuck me as a person for whom English is a 'second' language and had some grammatical mistakes. She didn't seem sedated to me...she seemed distraught and scared to death about all the media coverage and hype. Here is a woman whose life is now NATIONAL and INTERNATIONAL news. Even the English news sources I peruse are covering this story. I'd be distraught too. Sometimes, I really detest the media. They can ruin someone's life just for a sensational story. Look at the guys in Florida...their lives are now in chaos and we don't even know if they were guilty or innocent. |
Halfunit | Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 11:41 am     H.B., I am with you 100% on the media angle... case in point: Yesterday, hubby and I were getting ready to meet with friends for go-cart racing.... I was in the bathroom with the door open, listening to tv cable news about the situation at Arafat's compound. When I am only listening and not watching, I tend to pay more attention to the actual words being spoken. There was the desk anchor in NY, talking to a field reporter near the compound who had just spoken via phone with one of Arafat's officials. The field reporter indicated they could hear "yelling" going on in the background. When the anchor recapped the story, the "yelling" had now turned into "screaming", which to me, is completely different. I think the biggest hang-up I'm having about this is that on the tape, this woman was in an all out rage. She started, stopped, started, stopped. What made her continue after she stopped the first time? Unless she completely SNAPPED, her attack seemed too intense for being the "first and only time". The more I think about it, since she has admitted attacking her own child, she really needs to be punished - I'd hate to see the "I was having a bad day" defense become a popular one in court. |
Car54 | Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 11:56 am     If indeed the family are Travellers, there will be no way for authorities to keep track of the child if she stays with them. The Travellers are a very closed group and live a totally migratory life. That child will simply disappear. |
Karuuna | Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 11:57 am     Bo - I don't really get your point. The charge isn't necessarily valid? She has *admitted* to punching her child. It's fine to be skeptical, it's fine to abide by innocent until proven guilty. However to me and many others, we know what we saw on the video tape; and now the mother has copped to it as well. I believe that at least part of the reason that she did admit it, was that she (and her attorney) realized that the video was valid proof of her guilt. Personally, I agree with what Hillbilly said long ago, that the truth is that this woman was likely abused as a child as well. I'm not at all for jail time; but I think the point needs to be made that such behavior IS in fact, illegal; and regardless of the allowances made to parents in various jurisdictions, I don't see ANY state that would not have charged this woman for some reason or another. While it is regrettable that her own life and the life of her child have been turned upside down by the media attention; I for one, am glad this is in the news. Public attention turned to this issue can be positive in the long run, especially here in the states where we have some of the least progressive attitudes about treating children like human beings deserving of respect. |
Hillbilly | Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 12:25 pm     Here is an interesting article I found on Irish Travelers http://www.wndu.com/news/contact16/contact16_2450.php |
Yuhuru | Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 12:45 pm     Some of you guys are scaring me. The mother was wrong, should be punished, and the child should be put in a safe environment. (of course I live in Georgia and state custody unfortunately is anything but safe). But, I don't think Bohawkins is guilty of doing anything wrong. I think it's amazing that Bo can be so rational in his/her thought processes when he/she is opposed to even spanking. It's okay to disagree, but be kind and stop judging |
Hippyt | Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 01:33 pm     Irish travellers aren't exactly the most upstanding citizens. They basically run scams for a living. If they gave the girl back to her family right now,you can bet that child would disappear.Kind of interesting how the mom dyed her hair,and has been running all over the country. |
Whit4you | Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 01:38 pm     Yuh - possibly because some of us might take this a bit more personally. It's taken me a few days just to calm down enough to return to this thread. I Say 3 years is a pathetic sentence, what if she'd killed the little girl and she easily could have. We had a little boy die here a few months ago from the exact same sort of treatment. The sister of the abuser stood by and watched (both are now in jail) One facing murder charges, the other facing felony child abuse charges - for allowing it. This woman needs alot stiffer sentence then 3 years (concidering that means she will probably be out in a year or two) If I EVER saw someone beating a child like that in front of me - *I* would probably end up facing attempted murder charges myself. I just hope this little girl doesn't have perminant brain damage from all the abuse I imagine she's faced. |
Earthmother | Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 02:07 pm     Unfortunately kids are not safe..The law requires that I report any and all suspected cases of child abuse to Child Protective Services or I could get fired. I did just that 5 years ago. A child of a very well known and respected member of the community came in with a huge bruise on her face and when I asked her what happened she told me her mom hit her in the face with a hair brush because she wasn't getting ready for school fast enough. After I filed the report I was told there was an open case on this woman for past abuses. CPS came and took the child and placed her in a Foster home. One week later the mother came to the school and picked up the child's records as she was changing schools. I called CPS and was told they had returned the child to her mother and she had every right to change her child's school. They promised they would keep a better eye on this kid. Now the child is in Middle School and guess what? I work at this school, and I advised her teacher to keep an eye on her. The teacher came back to me and said that she wondered if there was a problem cuz the kid has bruises all over her arms. The teacher immediately called in the authorities, but so far they have not taken the child away from this woman. Even if the abuse is physically mild, the years of torture have probably damaged this poor kid forever. I blame the authorities as much as I blame the perpetrator. I have to agree that it has to get bad enough for the media to step in before anything happens to save these poor kids. I believe you are innocent until proven guilty, but unfortunately a kid could be really injured in the time it takes to find that out. So who's rights are we protecting then? |
Curious1 | Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 09:14 pm     I wanted to see this tape and I clicked on the posted link but it seems that I can't play it without belonging to cnn newspass. I have a goldpass real player account, but still can't seem to find the video of this any where on the internet. Can anyone help? |
Observer_X | Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 09:20 pm     Curious1, try this: Link |
Curious1 | Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 09:45 pm     For some reason my RealPlayer won't allow me to play that. Something about no AutoUpdate plug-in available! This is really frustrating. I have heard about this news story and I can't find the video clip anywhere. As a victim of severe child abuse this story angers me and I feel the need to defend this child against "it was just discipline and that's what's wrong with the world today we can't spank our kids" However without seeing the tape it's hard for me to sound credible. |
Observer_X | Sunday, September 22, 2002 - 10:14 pm     hmmmmmm.. Have you tried going to "Tools" on the bar menu of your real player and then clicking on "Check for Update"? Maybe your player needs to be updated. I actually just went there and there was an update available for me. Anyway, the link I posted above works for me. |
Observer_X | Monday, September 23, 2002 - 12:15 am     Curious1, Click the link to go to a place where you can download a Real Media file that I recorded from ABCnews.com It's a 5.72 Meg download
Download Child Beating Real Media File  |
Hillbilly | Monday, September 23, 2002 - 03:42 am     Curious...I don't see anywhere on this thread where anyone has said "it was just discipline and that's what's wrong with the world today we can't spank our kids". This mother has come forward and admitted her guilt. |
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