Not a day of uniting in Utica, NY
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TV ClubHouse: Archive: Not a day of uniting in Utica, NY
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Archive through September 12, 2002 25   09/12 11:43am

Observerx

Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 11:50 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Whit4you, I agree with you to a degree about some of what you said.

Unfortunatley it's not a black and white world, there are many shades of gray and change takes time. What you are describing would be great in a perfect world.. Again, unfortunately, we don't live in a perfect world.

There's no evidence or mention that Rev. Daly had any agenda other than be there for his paritioners. His role as the main speaker at the "official" public memorial was not to preach the acceptance of homosexuality but to speak as a member of the clergy about the events of 9/11.

He was asked not to attend because of his support of the Gay and Lesbian community (so I'm assuming also that Gays and Lesbians themselves would not be welcomed either). That is bigotry. So we come together in our own "family" to support and be there for each other. Not just gays and lesbians, but clergy, friends and family that DO accept us for who we are. You think by doing that we are perpetuating bigotry and our own segregation... Well what would you have us do? Sit around and wait for this magical day to happen when it doesn't matter who you are. It's just not gonna happen that way. We have to take action against the hatred and bigotry of this world, no matter what form it takes.

There were gay men and women who were killed in the 9/11 tragedy who have partners they left behind... partners that will not get the same benefits (or will have to fight very hard for them) as other families who lost loved ones, because "our" government and a majority of people do not believe that our relationships count. The least they could have, is to know there ARE people out there that know they were hurt by their loss just as much as anyone else.

Rev. Daly (and those like him) did not set us apart. Society has - and we deal with it the best we can. We have the right to come together with the rest of the nation in a time that affects all of us, but we are not welcome everywhere and that, IMO, was the point of this thread. You would think that at a time like this people wouldn't be thinking such petty thoughts, but they did and they asked Rev. Daly not to speak (again he was not going to be there to speak about any Gay agenda that I'm aware of). That is dividing and hurtful in a time when we have the opportunity to all come together as one.

I think what you are talking about is what we are trying to move toward. But it takes time and step-by-step we move closer. There will always be diversity (God/Goddess willing) in this country and there will always be groups of people that do not accept or like other groups of people. I really don't care if one particular group of people accepts me or not. It's society in general (and the govt). And there is a problem when a particular group has enough power that they can decide that because they don't agree with you that you should not exist and then do everything in their power to see that you don't. If a particular group of people are not hurting anyone and only want to be recognized and accepted for who they are, they should be allowed to co-exist with the rest of the human race in peace.

I should not be refused the same benefits of this country just because you don't like that I'm <insert favorite minority> (or support <insert favorite minority>). But it happens. The best I can do in the meantime is join with people or create a space where I can enjoy the freedoms of this country without fear of judgement. Allow me that.

I can't help but think you've misunderstood the point here. I get that you have good intentions and think I understand what you're getting at, but it's just not very realistic at this time.

Sanfranjoshfan

Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 11:50 am EditMoveDeleteIP
"Maybe he was attracted to men, maybe he wasn't. We'll never know for sure since he is dead and can't tell us himself. May his soul rest in peace."

http://uspolitics.about.com/library/weekly/aa030602a.htm

http://www.nlgja.org/news/newsoct2201.html

Yes, we do know....he was gay.

Mamaanja

Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 12:16 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Sanfran, let's agree to disagree on this one. My source says he wasn't gay your source says he was gay. Neither of us can truly know for sure, can we?

I personally don't care if he was or wasn't. From what I've read and heard about him, he seems like he was an incredible, kind and brave man. Which is what really matters anyway, in my opinion.

Karuuna

Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 12:18 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Well, heck, Whit - here you are at the center of a controversy. Why doesn't that surprise me, my friend?

I'm going to take 2 points of yours and try to briefly offer something to think about.

You wrote: <<Well I am simply don't understand why in the world someone would have to specify that a memorial for 9/11 is planned specifically for hetorosexual people and I think the gay community would be outraged if a priest said "We are planning a memorial for heterosexual Catholics" >>

Just because those memorials aren't *called* that, doesn't mean that they aren't that exactly. Thousands of churches, Catholic and non-Catholic alike had 9/11 memorials for white heterosexual Christians this week. The Catholics may think they're being open and inviting to gays, as someone pointed out in their official statement above. But IMO there is nothing warm and inviting offered by saying, "hey, you can hang out with us, but as long as you do, you are permanently denied the same opportunity to have a committed, caring, complete, intimate, loving relationship that the rest of us can." Just because they don't overtly call them services for white heterosexuals, doesn't mean that the message doesn't get thru. It comes thru, loud and clear.

However, to offer a 9/11 memorial service to gays and lesbians says: come here, grieve with us, you are *truly* welcome here, in all your fullness as a human being.

Second thought, you wrote: <<I don't think it's right for people to try to 'change the beliefs' of the Catholics anymore then I think it's right to change the beliefs of any of the other 543,013 religions out there. >>

Consider that the beliefs of the Catholic church and every other religion have changed over the years. Isn't it better that they change with the input of all people, since they are called to serve all people? When do you think the first black priest was ordained? When did they start allowing women to at least assist in mass? When did they stop excommunicating people for the "sin" of being divorced?

I applaud your hope and belief that someday none of this will matter; and we'll see people as people. But if we aren't out there educating and making noise and voicing differing points of view, how exactly will that come about?

Sanfranjoshfan

Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 12:38 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
"Sanfran, let's agree to disagree on this one. My source says he wasn't gay your source says he was gay. Neither of us can truly know for sure, can we?"

Okay....okay we can disagree....but you had just one source: "Father Felice said that in his close daily contact with Father Judge over a number of years, he never saw any expression of such an orientation."

Go to http://www.google.com and enter: "Father judge"+gay. There are *countless* articles...some regarding the honorable inclusion of his memory in a St Patrick's Day parade that was closed to gay participation. My "source" is a HUGE body of different sources.

http://www.thegully.com/essays/gaymundo/020327_m_judge_catholics.html

(I don't know why this link is not clickable)

The above link is all about the people and organizations that knew he was gay...it's an interesting read.

This reminds me of the women I worked with that were completelly shocked when Rock Hudson was "outted" when he contracted AIDS. It was a well known fact in the gay community for decades....just as Rosie O'donnell and Ellen Degeneres were. I think the publication you quote is only one biased source, but there is a lot more evidence that he was indeed, gay.

You are right, though...it doesn't really matter, no more than if someone published an article claiming that a priest had never seen him behave in any kind of heterosexual manner, thus implying that he was not heterosexual.

There are great gay heros and beloved gay people in this world, and all throughout history....denying their existence as gay just perpetuates the misnomer that gay people are not also decent and good.

Sanfranjoshfan

Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 12:49 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Just to add one more thing....right now, today, there are lots of gay men married to str8 women and those women have no idea their husbands are gay. (Some feel the need to "pass" because they are made to feel shame over who they really are.) Just because one friend of Father Judge never saw him "act gay" it certainly does not mean that he was str8, by any means.

Observerx

Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 12:55 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
"Since when do we wait for the Catholic CHURCH to fully accept something for us as a country to move on to the 2000th century."

BTW, it's the 21st century. 2002 not 20002... hopefully by then the human race will still be around and enjoying a better life with each other. :)

Maybe that's why you see things as you do.
You are about 1979 centuries ahead of the rest of us. :)

Whit4you

Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 04:14 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
The reason I really dislike discussing these issues is because people are so totally set in a certain way of thinking of things that they simply can not see any other way, and yes that includes myself.

I feel how I feel and I see things as I see them and I'm fully aware that nothing I can say could ever get anyone to have an eye opening experience - guess every now and then I just decide to put in my two cents.

As someone who lives just miles away from the Aryan nation marches - this thread hit close to home.

I do not believe that some who post here or read this post would say the exact same thing about the leader of the Aryan nations as they say about this priest.

If the leader of the Aryan nations were to decide to have a special 'white' only memorial service and THEN wanted to participate in a local memorial service... would you guys be outraged? Would you say that those opposed to him speaking are the bigots?

If we are having a service here to mourn the loss of this nation and all it's people of every walk of life then no I would NOT want someone who's planning a seperatist memorial to participate. I guess in some peoples book this makes me a bigot or racist... what I am in fact however is an anti-seperatist.

And as far as people expecting any and all religions to change to accept any and all types of people / activities / morals / values / ethics and so on that's more of a pipe dream then any I have. This world will NEVER come to a place where all people believe the same thing about all topics and I for one am glad about that. So lets live our live and except that not everyone is going to accept us and what we do. I for one was a young single mother in the 70's - I was a happy person because I didn't worry about what some holier-then-thou religious orginization thought of me or my life or my choices. As far as I am concerned I want no part of any religious organization who's going to sit on their high horse and judge me - it ain't their place to do so.

I suppose people because they were born into or their family was Catholic - think they need the approval of the Catholic church... but I personally disagree with that. Your choice of religion should be based on what YOU believe to be the truth and what YOU believe your god is all about.. and THAT is your religion. So your not "A Catholic" you are perhaps a TYPE of Catholic - the type that does not believe that X is a sin and you are going to burn in purgatory for that sin.

It's like the various types of Baptist - same thing applies here.

I personally think that people would be much happier and lead much more fullfilling lives if they learn to let go of trying to change any one of the many religions out their to their own beliefs. Life is short - enjoy it!

In my own personal religion telling anyone else they are a sinner is a sin.. so they can all join me in he** - and we can have some fun....:)

Observerx

Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 10:12 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I now totally agree with you Whit, at least on one point. Some people will never see anything other than their own view. Sometimes only Karma (walking in some elses shoes) will open their minds. (ummm... I think... It seems that, according to some, being in a minority and having personal experience, I still don't know what I'm talking about.)

I'm not sure how religion even became such a strong point in this discussion. I was under the impression that the topic was about discrimination in relation to a memorial that was supposed to be about coming together in Unity. The fact that this man, Rev. Daley, is a priest has nothing to do with the point here. He supports Gay and Lesbian issues and is therefore not welcome to speak at a function that had nothing to do with Gays or Religion but about remembering those lost on 9/11 and it's affect on the country. No one said anything about a "Gay Only" memorial, but a memorial where gays would be openly accepted along with everyone else!!!! Who's trying to change anyones religion??

Now Gays are being compared to the Aryan Nation... I, for the record, would not have any interest in an ALL GAY world and this is not what this subject is about. Just because you support something does not mean that you necessarlily comdemn everything else outside of it. The Aryans are against anyone that don't fit their idea of the perfect race. Gays and lesbians are fighting for equal rights not saying that all heterosexuals (or anyone else) should be put to death or have no rights or give up their sexual preference (I know how idiotic that sounds, but you know there are people think we are out to "recruit").

The only option you leave is NONE. We are discriminated against so we come together for each other and THAT is considered discriminating. You leave a no win situation for anyone that doesn't fit the accepted majorities idea of what should be.

It's like saying that people with severe depression problems should not be in support groups because that would be separatist. (not comparing Gays and Lesbians with those horrible mentally ill people). You may have a depression problem but don't discriminate against me as a mentally healthy person by banding together with other depressed people for support, since all you're going to do is plan an agenda to make all mentally healthy people insane.... Besides all this depression talk is a bunch of crap, just buck up and get on with your life! You have a choice! By the way since we've found out you have mental health issues we decided we do not want you to come and post in our thread because we don't don't believe in that mental health/Depression crap and we know you're planning or already have a support thread for mental health issues. We don't care that this thread may have any importance to you as a citizen of this board and it doesn't have anything to do with mental health. And you know that you are just stigmatizing yourself by coming out with it. It's your own fault. Sound ridiculous? (BTW, I do suffer from depression and anxiety, so I know how ludicrous and hurtful this sounds and IS).

I'm actually very offended and insulted by your comparisons and accusations. Comparing Gays and Lesbians to the Aryan Nation... accusing us of creating our own discrimination and rejection - and for profit at that!!! <mod>

Sanfranjoshfan

Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 11:07 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Gotta add a point - I think that the "special 9/11 remembrance mass for gay and lesbian Catholics" is one that I am SURE that NO ONE would be turned away from! There are gay pride parades every year all over the country and they are not for gayfolk ONLY....they are for gays AND those straight people that support gay rights.

I think the Aryan Nation would not be so welcoming of homosexuals or people of color at their rallies and within their ranks, even if they espoused the same rhetoric.

Right off hand, I cannot think of a single gay function or group that does not welcome ANY straight person that supports gay rights....although it is altogether too obvious that the "str8" memorial service mentioned in the first post did not welcome its own speaker...simply because he supports gay rights and gay acceptance.

JMO

Whit4you

Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 11:41 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Giving in and ..giving up.. Observex Kiss** :)

Whit4you

Friday, September 13, 2002 - 12:06 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Some final thoughts.. folks it's tough to NOT wanna respond when someone is responding to me but I do wanna walk away from this hopeless topic so perhaps respond to the points if you feel the need in this post and not me personally...


I'll try to end my visit to this agenda with the following...

If you want to spend your life trying to persuade one religion or another to believe how you do that's your choice.. if you like billions before you are persecuted for making that attempt then ... you can join the martyrs before you.

If you choose to live your life on what YOU believe is right or wrong then more power to you....:)

If you choose to support or defend seperatist regardless of their agenda then that's your choice just dont' be hypocritical about it that's all I ask.

A seperatist is a seperatist is a seperatist.

Live and let live... learn to accept and welcome those different then you .... and in time you wont SEE the differences.

'I am who I am and who I am is a man and so's my lolya....oh oh oh my lolya...."....:)

Guess I had to learn real young lot to let holier-then-thou's try to tell me who I am or who I may become as a 15 yr old unwed mother in the early 70's..and that aint changed...and no matter what anyopne in this thread tells me it aint gonna change.

I could care less what those holier then thou-sinners say my sins are and I'm sorry that otherts do give a shi* what they think...cause trust me they are NOT speaking for God..cause they ain't god no matter how much they want to believe they are............lol.

Since we are all sinners we will have a few billion or so years to debate these issues since we will all burn in he** together... I figure after a few hundred years we won't really notice... then we gotta few eternities to enjoy our fellowship. eh? :)

Whit4you

Friday, September 13, 2002 - 12:08 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Never mind my "final thoughts"

folks just.. be happy.....k? We dunno what the 'afterlife' holds s much as some might wanna.. so enjoy this one it's very very short. Don't worry bout what anyone else thinks of you live it as you wanna live it and how you think it fits you best.

Observerx

Friday, September 13, 2002 - 01:03 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Whit4you, I will "nevermind" your final thoughts because it so obvious that you did not even read my post... You just want to keep talking about religion and that is NOT the topic. <mod>

I have to say it one more time though. I have no interest in changing anyones religion. I have my own, I'm comfortable with it. I am accepted in it. I am NOT a separatist. I am NOT a hypocrite. I am NOT a martyr. I am not Aryan. <mod>

Thank you Sanfran for your added point. I have never ever gone to an event "for" Gays and Lesbians that would turn ANYONE away (unless they were there to just be down right nasty and cause trouble and then that would happen at any function).

Observerx

Friday, September 13, 2002 - 07:59 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I think that this (new and improved :) ) thread has probably just about run it's course and I would like to take the opportunity to end it on a more positive note...

Thank you Lovemarc for starting this thread and sharing this event in Utica, NY with us :)

Thank you SanFran, Mamaanja, Karuuna, Babyruth, Costacat, Twiggyish, Aunt_Bob, Wcv63, Squaredsc, Vanillarose and Faerygdds for your posts and input

And thank you Whit4you , for the pleasure of getting to express myself in my banter with you. No hard feelings. I do not doubt that we will probably like each other once we get to know each other. I look forward to reading your posts on other areas of the board.
back at ya.


I enjoy getting to organize my thoughts (as best I can) and putting them into written word. It helps me to learn about myself . Thanks again for the opportunity and I look forward to seeing you all on the board.

And I apologize to the moderator for the extra work you had to do...

Observerx

Friday, September 13, 2002 - 08:23 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Also, I sincerly apologize if I offended ANYONE,
it is not my intention to offend... well, not always :)
&

Babyruth

Friday, September 13, 2002 - 08:52 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
((((Observerx))))

I think you expressed yourself very well. Thank you so much!
I became much too angry (and overwhelmed with other strong emotions of the day) to write. I felt I had to choose to stay away from this thread.
Thanks for your excellent posts.
rainbow

Observerx

Friday, September 13, 2002 - 09:34 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
(((((Babyruth)))))

Juju2bigdog

Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 08:52 am EditMoveDeleteIP
{{{{{{{{Observerx}}}}}}}}}

{{{{{{{{Babyruth}}}}}}}}}}

Observerx

Saturday, September 14, 2002 - 11:05 am EditMoveDeleteIP
(((((Juju2bigdog)))))

Thank you Juju... for everything

Lovemarc

Monday, September 16, 2002 - 06:52 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Here is a report on the service:

http://www.uticaod.com/archive/2002/09/16/news/8248.html

Babyruth

Monday, September 16, 2002 - 08:28 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Lovemarc,

Thanks so much for initiating this thread, and now for the follow-up article. Sounds like it was a wonderful service, led by a wonderful man, inspired by his faith and love of God and fellow humans. What a fine example of wisdom and compassion he sets!

Juju, thanks for the hugs
Thanks, too, to everyone else who posted and shared their viewpoints in this thread. :)

Observerx

Monday, September 16, 2002 - 01:26 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Thank you Lovemarc for the update.

Lovemarc

Monday, September 16, 2002 - 03:22 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
You are very welcome.