Archive through June 28, 2002
TV ClubHouse: Archive: Pledge of Allegiance Declared Unconstitutional:
Archive through June 28, 2002
Holly | Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 12:35 pm     I found this today by the late Red Skelton: http://home.att.net/~poofcatt/july.html |
Faerygdds | Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 12:49 pm     <<Ahhhh, but excluding faith from a pledge professing faith (to one's country) is an exclusion that divides. Diversity is a good argument except for the fact that the rights of many are being deciding by a few. I don't see how such an exclusion is supposed to unify. >> Ahhh... but to INCLUDE religion is in ITSELF divisive... and excuse me, but 4% is NOT that big of a majority IMO. At least not enough to INCLUDE it. The point is this.... you may not LIKE it... you may not AGREE with it... but it is, after all... FAIR and JUST. Look: I don't particularly like the idea of someone burning my Flag -- in fact it enrages me to no end... but darn it... someone has the right to do so in this country and that is a great thing. So my bottom line is this... I personally belive that religion has no place in the pledge... even as "benign" as it is/seems to most(including me). The fact that someone finally got upset enough about it to do something about it... well... good for them. That is, after all what this country is all about -- the fact that we all have the freedom to seek out justice and fairness FOR ALL. wcv -- btw.. I did see your point, but the reality is that neither argument wash. The reality is that as Americans were differ on opionion here... that's what this country thrives on -- our differences. And after all shouldn't our pledge be something we CAN all belive in???? If it doesn't, then what does that say about us as Americans? Ick... that's a question *I* don't even want to touch.... Btw... am loving the banter... and love being on "the other side" of the issue. And you guys are really good and making me have to THINK thanks for the mental stimulation |
Oregonfire | Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 01:10 pm     I was listening to NPR this morning, and a few interesting points were mentioned: 1. This may be an instance of rampant "radical individualism," in which a person objects to any form of communal act which counters his or her own beliefs, regardless of the ability to "opt out." (The guy on the radio explained it so much better.) 2. The P of A is largely considered a secular hymn, a civic ritual, not a religious one; thus the use of "under God" is invoked in largely a secular manner. 3. Eisenhower approved the 1954 change to the P of A, but included an eloquent explanation of his reasoning: Our country should have a moral and ethicial compass, and not just act in brute strength or greedy self-interest; our morals as a nation should guide our actions. In this light, it appears that the phrase was added with the best of intentions, not merely as religious strong arming. 4. No where in the Constitution does it specifically say that there is to be a separation of Church and State. It's more along the lines that the state should not interfer in religious matters. 5. On the opposing side, a fourth grade school teacher said that making her students recite the P of A makes her uncomfortable; apparently teachers have the right to opt out of leading the class in saying it every morning. I guess for me it's like Missy666 noted: Aren't there more important battles to be fought than this one? Try corporate greed and the World.com scandal. I'm sure Bin Laden's in his batcave somewhere having a good laugh over all this. |
Wcv63 | Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 01:16 pm     Fairygdds said: "Btw... am loving the banter... and love being on "the other side" of the issue. And you guys are really good and making me have to THINK" Ditto. It's a wonderfully civilized discussion! Do the words "under God" really include religion? Not really. It's not a prayer nor is it an organized doctrine of religious beliefs. Once again I fall back on the same argument I've been using re faith. Faith and/or religion aren't the same thing. I go back to the definition of faith: 1 a : allegiance to duty or a person : LOYALTY b (1) : fidelity to one's promises (2) : sincerity of intentions. Also something that is believed especially with strong conviction. Missy I agree that our country is facing bigger problems than the constitutionality of faith. Holly wonderful link. Thank you for sharing. Max yes my head is spinning. Happy to know that I'm not alone. |
Wcv63 | Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 01:22 pm     Oregonfire I'm very impressed with your post. I especially endorse this sentiment: "Our country should have a moral and ethicial compass, and not just act in brute strength or greedy self-interest." |
Oregonfire | Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 01:39 pm     Thanks, but I'm just paraphrasing the big honchos! nothing original here. NPR always inspires me. |
Faerygdds | Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 01:52 pm     OK..... wait... so The fact that I don't necessarily believe in one god or a god makes me immoral and unethical now??? (according to Ike) Wow... that's harsh... and SO untrue.... ;) |
Wcv63 | Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 02:25 pm     Fairygdds you made me laugh. You do have SOMETHING guiding your morals and ethics don't you? A belief in something? |
Max | Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 02:51 pm     Morals and ethics are driven by conscience. Faith and codified religion reflect conscience. Some people have a conscience and some don't. Of the ones that don't, some have faith and some don't and some follow a codified religion and some don't. It's sort of like the whole chicken and egg thing.... Which came first, a sense of moral/ethical conscience or the Ten Commandments (or whatever other codified belief system you want to substitute)? |
Lostinthefog | Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 03:05 pm     I recited the Pledge every school day from Kindergarten through 8th grade. I recited the Pledge by rote. It was a morning requirement in our school system. I know for a fact that reciting the Pledge did not make me a better person. I paid absolutely no attention to it as I recited it. My moral and genetic makeup did not suddenly undergo a radical transformation when I stopped reciting the Pledge in High School. I live in a free country. Why do my kids have to recite a Pledge? What is accomplished by it? My kids are not robots or zombies that have to be programmed into being good citizens. |
Ryn | Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 03:09 pm     Not sure if it was reported above.. But, from CNN.com A judge who ruled that reciting the Pledge of Allegiance in public schools is unconstitutional because the phrase "under God" violates the separation of church and state issued a stay today pending further appeals. The Justice Department, which was named as a co-defendant in the case, said it would seek a hearing by the full 9th Circuit Court of Appeals. |
Max | Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 03:12 pm     No one "has" to recite it and in may school systems they don't even ask that it be done. It's a voluntary thing. Granted, there is a peer pressure issue, but I don't believe there are any public schools (at least not in the California court's jurisdiction) that REQUIRE recitation of the pledge anymore as they did when I was in elementary school. As far as kids being programmed like robots or zombies, that occurs every day in schools, IMO. Sit still, pay attention, pass tests, don't ask too many challenging questions. Don't conform to those rules? You must have ADHD or something. Let's give you a little ritalin and you'll be fine. Okay, sorry, that's a whole 'nother thread! |
Wcv63 | Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 03:12 pm     Lostinthefog: "I live in a free country. Why do my kids have to recite a Pledge?" They don't. As someone mentioned in a previous post they can "opt out". Nobody is forcing anyone to recite the pledge. But it should be an option. |
Gail | Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 03:31 pm     I'm curious - if we get rid of "under God" because it is unconstitutional - do we also have to trade in all of our money because it says "In God we Trust?" If so, I will volunteer to collect up everyone's if they want to get rid of it. |
Max | Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 03:36 pm     Gail, that's the next lawsuit this guy will bring. He already said that was his original plan, but he decided to go after it from the angle of his daughter and the school system instead. I'd send you all my money, but I can't afford the postage after Sunday! |
Babyruth | Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 04:10 pm     In the 50's, during the red scare, at the height of McCarthyism, the words "Under God" were added to the pledge of Allegiance by the president, and the words "In God We Trust" were stamped onto our currency. This was done to unite the country against "atheistic commies" (most of whom were simply liberal patriotic Americans voicing their right to dissent). To me, those acts were the true definition of being "politically" correct, before it became a misused catch phrase for "socially" correct. Those acts served to advance and hold tight the political position of the men in power. Bush and Ashcroft use the same fear tactics to achieve similar results today. (You're with us or against us.....axis of evil....patriotism comes in one flavor...bla bla) It's way past time to undo these remnants of a divisive and hateful (not to mention STUPID) time in our history and return to the original pledge, and on our currency focus on the much more embracing and eloquent E Pluribus Unum ("out of many, one"). |
Babyruth | Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 06:53 pm     Oops! Well, I didn't mean to kill the thread with my strongly felt opinion.... Please resume your discussion... |
Faerygdds | Thursday, June 27, 2002 - 09:51 pm     BabyRuth. Frankly... you summed it all up in a nutshell for me. It's what I've been trying to get across all night... I read your post and TOTALLY agreed with it. It isn't that you stoped it because you were naughty in saying what you said, but you stopped me because you are IMO 100% correct and you stated it very well. And we could start a whole thread on the verbiage of our President and Ashcroft... ugh... everytime I heard the word evil on TV I would just turn around, glare and say, "Heil Bush"... why? Because as has been explained to me ad nauseum by those in my husband's family who were raised during the rise and fall of WWII in GERMANY... that's how Hitler got the country to hate the Jews just befroe he tried to exterminate them... see what I mean... could start a whole new thread for that one... but I loved what you said... |
Wcv63 | Friday, June 28, 2002 - 12:18 am     Babyruth you didn't kill the thread...that's MY job! I deplore the entire McCarthy era and everything that was done during his reign of terror. I also understand that because the words "under God" were included during that era several will use that fact to decry what is essentially an expression of faith. Oregonfire explained it so much better than I. It's not a religious statement but rather a secular ritual. One can always not participate in the recitation and/or leave out the offending words. |
Riviere | Friday, June 28, 2002 - 01:06 am     If the words "one nation united in spirit" are seemingly taken as too religious, there's always the phrase "one nation of united patriots" and that also has a nice ring to me.. American patriots defend the rights of others to hold their religions dear except when it comes to killing us, heheh, and has anyone thought maybe too much religious influence & burdens have been placed on USA to be a 'god loving god fearing' identity? A civilized country is not always a Christians-only country. As so many great opinions have been stated, basically USA didn't get to be a powerful force by claiming 'god likes us better because we all pray to him more' we got here by accepting everyone's diversity, bonded not by 1 god, just our own human spirit and love of our mutual homeland.. Whose god has much to do with running this country? Who wants to run it now or ruin it? I say the line between your patriotism and your religion is that 1 is very public and the other is simply your private free choice. Burn the flag, pass out pamphlets, run for senate, attend bible study, it's a free land! But if we're going to use 'god' in every day speech & pledges etc we'd better name all of them from Jehova to Zeus or tell congress to get rid of any religious affiliation that targets one god and doesn't recognize another, or the right to not believe in any.. What makes more sense? Wonderful variety of opinions here by the way! |
Squaredsc | Friday, June 28, 2002 - 09:21 am     i say we just all pray to the almighty dollar. |
Squaredsc | Friday, June 28, 2002 - 09:34 am     by the by, my kids are in elementary school(my oldest will be in middle school though this fall) and they say the pledge every morning, and kids take turns leading the pledge over the pa, now i don't know if they HAVE to say the pledge, because i have never made it an issue. but i will ask them if they have the option of saying it or not(they are at their grandparents house in delaware so i won't see them until tomorrow evening). |
Bob2112 | Friday, June 28, 2002 - 09:46 am     sc2 said "i say we just all pray to the almighty dollar." I'm here if you need me!
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Squaredsc | Friday, June 28, 2002 - 10:54 am     roflmao bob, great one. |
Magikearth | Friday, June 28, 2002 - 11:54 am     Faerygdds states: "The fact that someone finally got upset enough about it to do something about it..well...good for them.That is,after all what this country is all about--the fact that we all have the freedom to seek out justice and fairness for all." Here's my response to that: Doesn't this guy think there are more worthwhile causes to fight for- such as,the rights of Crime Victims,Abused/Neglected Children,Affordable Housing,in other words, issues that make a difference in people's way of living? Just an example- Candy Lightner founded MADD after her twelve-year old daughter was killed by a drunk driver..Laws were made to make drunk driving a serious charge. I don't mean to get off topic,just trying to put things in perspective. To me,this just doesn't seem like such a high priority cause worth fighting. Personally,I just don't like the idea of changing the Pledge Of Allegiance...I see nothing wrong with the words "One Nation Under God." Max is right-the next thing you know,"God Bless America" could be banished..it might not end there.Scary stuff. Anyway,these are just my thoughts.I,uh,hope they don't offend anybody!! Hey Squaredsc, Greetings from Delaware! |
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