Archive through September 12, 2002
TV ClubHouse: Archive: Not a day of uniting in Utica, NY:
Archive through September 12, 2002
Lovemarc | Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 12:24 pm     This absolutely disgusted me. Justifying your bigotry by saying this is a "day of uniting"? Sounds like dividing to me. Pro-gay priest removed as 9/11 speaker Planners of a Wednesday night interfaith 9/11 memorial service in Utica, N.Y., removed the scheduled main speaker from the program because of his advocacy of gay rights, according to the Utica Observer-Dispatch. The Utica Fire Department threatened to pull its participation in the memorial, titled "One Region United," if the Reverend Fred Daley were allowed to speak. Firefighters reportedly were upset because Daley had announced plans to host a special 9/11 remembrance mass for gay and lesbian Catholics on Sunday. "Basically, I wanted him removed as the speaker," assistant fire chief Russell Brooks said. "All these other issues and crusades should not cloud what this one day is all about. September 11 is supposed to be a day of uniting and healing. I think it's very inappropriate for [Daley] to bring this to light on that day." Utica mayor Tim Julian and the event's publicist, Tracy Taylor, said the fire department was so greatly involved in Wednesday's service that event organizers decided they needed to ask Daley to step aside. "To have the lead speaker as someone who speaks out on a controversial issue is something this day was not meant for," Julian said. "If this was a rally, if it was gay pride day, then Father Daley would be very fitting to have as one of the main speakers. But again, this is a day for people who gave their lives." Taylor said she is "heartbroken" about Daley's removal after all the work she and others have put into the event. "There's no room for bigotry of any kind in tonight's celebration," she said. "I do not support the decision. In fact, I'm appalled by it." Daley said he does not believe the decision reflects the opinion of the greater Utica community but rather the homophobic views of a few city leaders and public employees. "I think it's a disgrace to our community," he said. "Gay and lesbian people will feel very hurt and once again experience pain and rejection. That is certainly not in any way living out the values that our nation is supposed to stand for." |
Observerx | Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 12:53 pm     Lovemarc, I've read this like three times now and it makes no sense to me. It appears to be bigotry, hypocracy and stupidity to an unbelievable degree. What do "plans to host a special 9/11 remembrance mass for gay and lesbian Catholics on Sunday" have to do with "a Wednesday night interfaith 9/11 memorial service"? Did they have some kind of information that Reverend Fred Daley had plans to push some Gay and Lesbian agenda at this memorial? "supposed to be a day of uniting and healing"...???? so let's turn it into a day of dividing and wounding...??? WTF?!?! |
Lovemarc | Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 01:04 pm     It is stupid. Gay people died too. |
Babyruth | Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 01:32 pm     I am too angry for words. |
Costacat | Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 06:20 pm     You know, you'd think by now that I'd be used to the intolerance and bigotry that still runs rampant in this country. Yet today, of all days, this shocks me. A day of unity is intended to include all persons, regardless of race, religion, sex, sexual preference, or color of one's eyes. This saddens me. Very much. Ironically, this morning at 6:03 PDT, the only bells I heard tolling at the time the second tower was hit was from University Christian Church. A church comprised of largely gay, lesbian, and transgendered members. I am thankful I live in San Diego and not Utica. |
Whit4you | Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 06:46 pm     Well I don't understand why someone would need to make a planned ceremony for people of just one sexual persuasion regarding 9/11 that makes NO sense to me! Imagine if a priest had "a plans to host a special 9/11 remembrance mass for white Catholics on Sunday" or a "a plans to host a special 9/11 remembrance mass for heterosexual Catholics on Sunday" what on earth does ones sexuality have to do with 9/11 and why on earth would someone try to segment people that way? whoever this priest is he sounds like someone trying to stir up problems and looks like he has. 9/11 is a day for everyone and certainly not a day for anyone to promote some agenda and hosting a "white" or "heterosexual' mass would cause outrage - and so would on earth would anyone do something like that. It's flat wrong for anyone to use this for any agenda - and clearly someone saying we are having a 'gay' rememberence is doing so. What on EARTH does ones sexual preference have to do with 9/11 absolutely nothing...sheesh. |
Twiggyish | Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 07:06 pm     I think it's horrible and unexcusable. |
Lovemarc | Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 07:28 pm     Whit4you: I think most people are aware that many religions, including Catholicism, are hostile towards gay people. Keeping that in mind, gay Catholics in many communities have organized and been ministered to by sympathetic priests. I don't understand how holding a 9/11 service for his parishioners constitutes an "agenda". "What on EARTH does ones sexual preference have to do with 9/11 absolutely nothing" It shouldn't, but unfortunately it does to certain people in Utica. If you still don't understand, then there's probably nothing I can say to change that. |
Babyruth | Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 07:29 pm     Whit, I suppose when gay and lesbian Catholics are fully accepted in Catholicism, and when gay and lesbian relationships are legally and socially accepted with the same rights of survivorship as heterosexual couples, there will be no need for separate memorial services for them. What a kind and compassionate thing for Reverend Daly to have done. I share your outrage that there is a need for separate services. Someday, maybe, discrimination will be unacceptable. |
Vanillarose | Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 08:07 pm     Grrrrrr!!! These attitudes are positively Medieval!!!!!!! Human beings, straight and gay died on 9/11. On this day, of all days, there should be respect for life and humanity. |
Karuuna | Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 08:23 pm     amen, babyruth |
Observerx | Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 09:05 pm     "Well I don't understand why someone would need to make a planned ceremony for people of just one sexual persuasion regarding 9/11 that makes NO sense to me!" People of common experience and understanding often come together in times of crisis to console one another. I do not believe that "straight' people would have been asked not to come to such a service (as Rev Daley was dropped from speaking at the memorial) it's just that it would be a service that has an accepting atmosphere for gays and lesbians and their family and friends (of either persuasion). Why would Baptists plan a ceremony for a baptist crowd? Why would a catholic plan a ceremony for a catholic crowd? Why would TVCH'rs creat a special thread for board members... Common Bond. Why can't we all come together as just one people? In many ways we do and have, but segregation, ignorance and bigotry exist and won't be gowing away too soon. "whoever this priest is he sounds like someone trying to stir up problems and looks like he has." Daley, however, said his message would have been appropriate and universal -- one of love, peace and non-violence. "I was asked to give a message of peace and good will," Daley said. "And I would have. In reality, the core of the terrible evils of terrorism and homophobia are the same. It's based on ignorance that leads to fear that leads to hatred. To the extent that we foster that, we are endangering ourselves." Yeah, sounds like a big trouble maker to me. |
Whit4you | Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 11:29 pm     Well I am simply don't understand why in the world someone would have to specify that a memorial for 9/11 is planned specifically for hetorosexual people and I think the gay community would be outraged if a priest said "We are planning a memorial for heterosexual Catholics" - if gay people wish to not be thought of differently and wish to be accepted then why go out of your way to set yourselves appart and segregate yourselves - makes no sense to me. I'm into religion but I certainly can not fathom me going to a memorial because it's for 'heterosexual Catholics' I wouldn't go to something like that - it reminds me of the Aryan nations to have someone try to set our 'group' apart like that and I don't understand why a gay person wouldn't be offended by someone trying to do that! I can't see that any aspect of this nations loss on ANYTHING to do with whether or not I happen to love a man or a woman in my own personal life.... it has NOTHING to do with that in MY opinion. And yes I think it's a trouble maker who'd try to open something like 9/11 into a issue about who someone happens to love or whatever - because it has NOTHING to do with that. I know both sides on this issue are polorized so me talking here won't matter will it... but still I just think it's ironic that people are blaming those who are against him using 9/11 the way he has. Imagine if you could open your mind - if say someone decided to have a "white heterosexual Catholic memorial for 9-11" now your telling me that anyone who was OPPOSED to the person doing that would be the trouble makers??? That if say a black person or a gay person or gawd forbid a gay black person found offense to someone setting up a 'white hetersexual Catholic memorial" - that that person would be the true trouble maker? I doubt it. I seriusly do. But to turn around and say 'but it's different' because we are treated differently so we've got preist who set us appart and treat us differently BECAUSE we are treated differently. Um what?? You just can't have it both ways - if you want to be treated like everyone else because you are in fact LIKE everyone else then why would you support people trying to set you appart and make you different and make it seem like you are not like everyone else but that you need your very own memorial for the nation based on who you happen to love????? I know I'm wasting my breath here dunno why either I never bother with anything related to this topic because people just do not have the ability to see this thing from other angles. Three of the gals at my work are gay - they are no different nor treated any different then anyone else at my work. There's an entire industry however that relies on bigotry to stay in the money...and as long as people allow them to they will continue to ensure that gay people are looked at and treated differently by all the things they do to promote it... such as "Gay and Lesbian 9-11 Memorial" Now if the three gals I work with had to have their own ceremony to morn 9-11 then ya we would probably start to look at them differently. And that's the whole point of this agenda as I said. If you had ANY idea the amount of money the gay and lesbian foundations bring in and the sheer # of people making their living off of promoting their agenda you'd faint. And maybe just maybe feel a little used. And just in case someone wants to imply I'm homophobic for some reason - this is a family board so you'll just have to trust me that I'm not <efg> |
Aunt_Bob | Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 11:33 pm     Lovemarc, thank you for posting this info representing some of the memorial tributes of this day. All day long, we have been seeing, hearing and reading about the wonderful events taking place around the world, but this shows that all is not wonderful in our nation. While this situation is SO HARD TO BELIEVE; it, at the same time, is SO VERY BELIEVABLE if we are not living in today's society with blinders on our eyes and plugs in our ears and believing that "all I have to do is think good thoughts and all will be right with the world!" Though it is sad and brings pain to my heart, I thank you for enlightening me today. Vanillarose: My initial thought to this post, which I read over 4 or 5 times, was -- humans died, not only Americans, many countries sustained fatalities . . . it is hard for me to believe there were no homosexuals, no women who were pregnant and planning on having an abortion, no anti this, anti that (non-violent) zealots, no ex-criminals, no sinners . . . PEOPLE died !!! because of IGNORANCE, because of HATRED, and because of MISGUIDED Religious beliefs, almost 3,000 lives were 'murdered'. Why do I feel that somewhere in the masses of unbelievable pain and grief and shattered lives, there are mothers, fathers, sisters, brothers & extended family members and especially the CHILDREN of these Gayes, Lesbians and others of 'controversial life styles'. On this day, this one day out of 365, they ALL deserve to be honored, without prejudice. |
Whit4you | Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 11:50 pm     Babyruth Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 07:34 pm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Whit, I suppose when gay and lesbian Catholics are fully accepted in Catholicism, and when gay and lesbian relationships are legally and socially accepted with the same rights of survivorship as heterosexual couples, there will be no need for separate memorial services for them. What a kind and compassionate thing for Reverend Daly to have done. I share your outrage that there is a need for separate services. Someday, maybe, discrimination will be unacceptable. -------- Since when do we wait for the Catholic CHURCH to fully accept something for us as a country to move on to the 2000th century. With that philosphy all catholics would have 8 children running around until the Catholic chuch fully accepts birth control... LOL Honestly if I worried about being judged by the countless other religions out there - I wont mention one by name but basically everything I've ever done has been a sin in one religion or another. I hate discussing religion these days because it gives me a headache.. but what I'm trying to say is Everything about you and your life regardless of your sexuality or morals or anything ARE a sin in one religion or another so WHY let it bother you personally??? If you live your life to not sin in any religion then you might as well lock yourself in a box somewhere - oh well that's a sin too I am sure... I'd say then you might as well kill yourself but we all know that's a sin sooooooo - do you get my point at all? You might be thinking - 'ya but I'm catholic' and it's different when it's my OWN religion.... no it's not different... Obvoiusly your religion if your a gay Catholic is NOT the SAME religion as a Catholic who believes their god is going to send all gay's to hell or whatever their beliefs might be. What sets a Catholic and a Buddist or what-have-you apart is what they happen to believe... and what sets YOUR religion appart from some other Catholic religion is what YOU happen to believe. I don't think it's right for people to try to 'change the beliefs' of the Catholics anymore then I think it's right to change the beliefs of any of the other 543,013 religions out there. Even if it is right there is simply no way relistically to ever concieve of changing the minds of all the various religions out their to all believe in the exact same things being sinful or not etc. So bottom line what I am saying is this: It does not make sense to ME to have a priest promoting an agenda - espeically at a time like this... and setting apart a particular group of people that the Catholic church feels are sinner IS an agenda... Anyhow ya know this topic gives me a headache and I know nothing I can say will ever change anyones mind and if ya'all think I'm closed minded on this subject because I don't think we are DIFFERENT just cause of who we happen to love and don't think we NEED to differentiate ourselves based on that - and I don't think we need to continue to line the pockets of the people promoting this then so be it. I'll be around SOMEDAY - when someones sexuality or race or hair color will have nothing to do with a memorial service and hopefully then you will agree it's much better that way..... till then you can continue to support and promote those with an agenda to keep racism and bigotry alive. |
Aunt_Bob | Wednesday, September 11, 2002 - 11:58 pm     I want to add that I'm not saying that I think the city of Utica had an issue with honoring ALL of the victims of the 9/11 massacre, what I am saying is - if Malcolm X or . . . (mental block going on here) or even the Reverend Fred Daly wish to be a part of this memorial event, today off all days, one day . . . one that was created from hatred, but should now represent peace and good will towards all . . . then so be it. You can always and will most likely, go back to INTOLERANCE tomorrow. |
Wcv63 | Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 05:28 am     Whit, the speaker was planning a separate memorial event on another date and it should not have been considered as a reason to exclude him from being a speaker at this event. It was stupid and bigoted for Daly to have been removed as a speaker because of a few homophobic individuals especially considering the event's message of unity. Bah. |
Squaredsc | Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 06:00 am     its a crying shame, but par for the course in this country. segregation, racism, predjudice(sp), classism, and any other -ism is still alive and well.  |
Mamaanja | Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 08:15 am     Here's what the Catechism of the Catholic Church has to say about homosexuality: "2358 The number of men and women who have deepseated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. They do not choose their homosexual condition; for most of them it is a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition. 2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of distinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection." The Church calls all people to chastity, not just homosexuals. There is way to much in the Catechism to copy, but homosexuals are in no way singled out! Other offenses to chastity listed include: rape, pornography, prostitution and lust. My point with all of this is that LoveMarc said that Catholics are hostile to homosexuals. I really don't think that's the case. The Church teaches that they should be "accepted with respect, compassion and sensitivity" How is that hostile? I'm sure that there are instances of catholic people being hostile to homosexuals, but those are individuals, and not the Church itself. The Church takes a very conservative stand on sexual issues. But it applies them to ALL people, no matter WHO they are attracted to. I do not want to start a fight about Catholic sexual teachings. I just want this thread to have accurate information about the Church. By the way, if he TRULY was not there to push his agenda, then I think Father Daley should have been allowed to speak. |
Babyruth | Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 08:48 am     Whit, your statements that gay people and organizations run by gays and lesbians have "an agenda to promote racism and bigotry" against ourselves in order to make money is one of the most amazing, ignorant, and insulting things I've ever encountered. |
Lovemarc | Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 10:17 am     Mamaanja, I'm not Catholic, so I only give my views as an outsider. I'm aware of the teachings you have detailed. I don't exactly consider them to be accepting. In fact, I think they can be very damaging to the emotional health of young gays that are attempting to accept their sexuality. That's just my opinion. You're free to disagree. I certainly didn't intend to start a debate over Catholicism. |
Sanfranjoshfan | Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 10:39 am     Whit4you - "If you had ANY idea the amount of money the gay and lesbian foundations bring in and the sheer # of people making their living off of promoting their agenda you'd faint. And maybe just maybe feel a little used." I hate to jump in here, especially to defend a postion that is contrary to one of my FAVORITE and most level headed posters, but... The gay and lesbian organizations are only here to combat the HUGE industry of hate known as organized religion in this country. Remember....Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson claimed that the WTC tragedy was *caused* by gays and lesbians, claiming that god turned his back on America because all of America does not embrace his brand of hate and discrimination. Please note....all beaurocracies get out of hand and there will always be people at the top that make a great living off the pain and discrimination of others (look at Pat Robertson or any one of those other TV evangelsists that drive around in limos and wear designer clothes while the people that send him money are living under the poverty level). My point is just that gay and lesbian organizations would not even exist if it were not to combat the "already-in-place" organized discrimination that is perpetrated by right wing religion in this country. There is no gay marriage, solely because of right wing "christians" that pool large amounts of money and lobby congress and the president to deny it on religious grounds. (Side note, there are a lot of bonafide religions that perform and sanction gay unions, but I don't see the Baptists or Catholics trying to stop the Metropolitan Community Chiurch from doing so....they want to make it a political ban, so that *everyone* that does not believe thier brand of faith must still live by its rules) As far as it being wrong for a gay priest to host a ceremony for gay christians, just stop and think about how uncomfortable many gay christians feel in settings where they are condemned for loving who they love. "And just in case someone wants to imply I'm homophobic for some reason - this is a family board so you'll just have to trust me that I'm not <efg>" Whit4you - I firmly believe that you are NOT homophobic in any way , shape, or form. In closing, I'd just like to point out that the universally respected FDNY priest that died in the WTC tragedy was a priest that happened to be gay, and he has been memorialized and been grieved over by everyone. In the very first list of WTC victims names he was numbered "001". |
Faerygdds | Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 10:52 am     It still inspires awe in me at how many people are willing to hate and be angry at another human being for them simply being who they are... Whether the difference is race, religion, sexual orientation, or culture... we MUST as a SPECIES learn that what matters is a person's character and heart... an not focus on and loathe someone for their differences... I stayed out of here yesterday because I cannot help but be angered by the sentiment behind the decision. I could not help being emotional and I didn't want to say something that would HURT someone.. Today I can be more level headed and say that I still have hope for all us... but things like this just sadden me. |
Mamaanja | Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 11:32 am     From "Our Sunday Visitor" Sept. 15, 2002 issue Vol.91, No.20 page 21(www.osv.com) "Father Felice said the late chaplain was 'a very human, flawed, complex person, just like the rest of us,' who demonstrated that 'such is the stuff of greatness.' Although some press articles published after his death have claimed that Father Judge was a homosexual, Father Felice said that in his close daily contact with Father Judge over a number of years, he never saw any expression of such an orientation. Father Judge always responded to individuals who needed help, but was not the sort of priest who takes up 'causes', his provincial said. The late priest's approach to service is expressed in a prayer he wrote and often handed out on printed cards: 'Lord, take me where You want me to go. Let me meet who You want me to meet. Tell me what You want me to say, and keep me out of Your way.'" Maybe he was attracted to men, maybe he wasn't. We'll never know for sure since he is dead and can't tell us himself. May his soul rest in peace. |
Mamaanja | Thursday, September 12, 2002 - 11:43 am     I forgot to add, Faerygdds, I totally agree with your post from 10:57. I do not have hate and anger towards those who disagree with me, and I would hope that those who disagree with me would have the same respect for me! You hit the nail on the head when you said that what matters is one's character and what is in their heart. And we hurt each other when we assume we know this about another based just on a nugget of info...he's gay...she's a devout Roman Catholic....he's athiest...she's Wiccan... You get the point. By the way, isn't it great to have this forum? I learn so much from everyone and I do think we manage to keep it fairly civil considering we talk a lot about politics and religion!! Hugs and Kisses to all of you! |
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