Archive through September 10, 2002
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TV ClubHouse: Archive: Sept. 11...: Archive through September 10, 2002

Kat

Monday, September 09, 2002 - 06:08 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I lost a neighbor on 9/11 and I agree with Maris. I will be in my church on 9/11 praying for us and for our lost friends. I am sure that God will listen too.

Vanillarose

Monday, September 09, 2002 - 06:48 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Maris, Kaili never said that we were not wronged, that what the terrorists did on Sept. 11 wasn't horrible.

While we were in no way to blame for Sept. 11, and it was an entirely unprovoked attack, we still need to look at the reason why a group of people and some other nations would hate us enough to wish so many innocent Americans dead. The rhetoric you hear about "They hate us for our freedom" is way too pat.

Azriel, you're saying that it seems cold to use Sept. 11 to further a political agenda. You'r right, it certainly does, and that's just what Bush is doing. He's using Sept. 11 to further his agenda with Iraq.

Twiggyish

Monday, September 09, 2002 - 06:55 am EditMoveDeleteIP
On that day, I'll allow myself a good cry. It's hard to hold in the sadness on a day such as Sept. 11. After which, I'll dry my eyes, and do something positive. Perhaps, a trip to a homeless shelter, a donation to the local crisis center or take clothes and toys to the local charities who GIVE freely to the poor. We can let this day crush our spirits or we can take action and do something in memory of those who died. September 11, 2001...
Let's leave the politics at the door. It's not about what could have been done or who's to blame. It's about 3000 people and their families. Sept. 11 is a day to remember them.

Vanillarose

Monday, September 09, 2002 - 06:58 am EditMoveDeleteIP
One more thing I just want to say. Just because I don't agree with all of the actions that our gov't and it's leaders have taken before or since Sept. 11, I do not want to diminish anyone's loss, or belittle the pain and anguish that Sept. 11 caused us all.

Twiggyish

Monday, September 09, 2002 - 07:12 am EditMoveDeleteIP
By the way, my post isn't directed at anyone in particular. (just wanted to add that)

Maris

Monday, September 09, 2002 - 07:28 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Actually, I thought that Kali making the statement that we killed civillians too seemed to make a comparison between us and terrorists.

quote:

What makes our deaths so much more tragic than other deaths in the world- including those that were caused by us? We killed civilians too- we killed MANY civilians and not just in the so-called war on terror. We've been doing it for a long time. But who cares right? Their deaths are just collateral damage and why should we want God to bless their innocent dead?

unquote


I had a problem with this and I dont agree with the sentiment or admit that anything we have ever done is comparable to a terrorist attack.

Marysafan

Monday, September 09, 2002 - 07:44 am EditMoveDeleteIP
*stepping up and taking my place right next to Kali*

Kali, Thank you for saying what you said so well! I share your opinions, and also your concerns. Bravo! I am so glad to know that I am not alone in these thoughts.

Vanillarose

Monday, September 09, 2002 - 07:53 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Maris, Kaili was stating a fact, not calling us terrorists. It's ok with me if you disagree, but I agree with Kaili that it is not ok for the US to kill civilians. It is not ok to dismiss or minimize the deaths of innocent men, women and children by calling their deaths "collateral damage." Just because these people are killed in response to something horrible that was done for us does not make it ok in my book.

Marysafan

Monday, September 09, 2002 - 09:43 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Twiggyish, I am so sorry. I wish it could have been the way you wanted it. The way I would have wanted it too. I wish September 11 could have been a day of rememberance.

Instead, our President and his administration have chosen to make it a rallying point to go ahead with his plan to take care of "unfinished business". He is using those emotions that we have for all those who were lost and is exploiting them to further his polical agenda.

But we don't have to let him. We can stand up and tell him that we will not be manipulated this way. WE can honor those who have died in our way. We still have those rights.

Twiggyish

Monday, September 09, 2002 - 09:52 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I don't care about Bush right now. On Sept. 12, I'll start grumbling about him.
However, as private citizens, we all can choose do something on our own. Who needs politicians to tell us what we should or shouldn't do on that day.
For myself, I'll cry (as stated) and then go out and do something in honor of those who died.
As far as I'm concerned, politicians should stay the h#ll out of it on that day. Yup, I'm being Pollyanna here. But, one can only hope.
NOTE -- Notice, it doesn't say NOT to be concerned over the issues involved, just set them aside for one day and focus on those who died. (jmo)

Oregonfire

Monday, September 09, 2002 - 10:18 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I agree with you Twiggyish. It seems fitting to leave politics at the door and mourn in peace that day. That said, it's pretty easy for me to edit out the hype and political jockeying and focus on the families, businesses, and towns around NYC that were hit hard by 9-11. Not to be crude, but the bullsh*t seems readily apparent next to what is true and heartfelt. I'll just go get a soda when the TV turns maudlin and/or manipulative.

(BTW, side note: I was sad to see that Bill Maher was eventually pulled off Politically Correct and replaced by a less confrontational host. What he said may have been unpopular, but this is still a free country, right? I did agree with him that the word "cowardly" was being misused, and still cringe when I hear it used in relation to the attacks. However, that the terrorist acts were evil is beyond doubt and appropriate.)

Maris

Monday, September 09, 2002 - 10:22 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Any civillians that were killed in the WAR in afghanistan were not intentional. However these are the people we are fighting:

11/98 UNITED NATIONS: A UN report on Thursday gave grisly details of alleged Taliban massacres carried out in the northern city of Mazar-i-Sharif that may have left up to 8,000 people dead.

This was just one of many massacres that were done by the Taliban against their own people. We are in a war and people are going to be killed. That is a fact of war. There is a big difference in intentionally targetting civillians and civillians getting killed in a war zone. The United States hasnt even come close to killing as many civillians that the Afghan Taliban did in that one massacre in 1998. Nobody says a human life is worth less than an American human life.

I go back to my statement which is that the Taliban were given numerous warnings to turn over the terrorists and they refused. They were warned. So if anyone is to blame for the war in Afghanistan it is the taliban and Al Qaeda. Aside from all of that, human rights organizations were crying for years that the United States and the United Nations had an obligation to do something about the killings in Afghanistan. What if that had been the reason for the war? How many civillians would have been killed then?

As I have said, we are damned if we do and damned if we dont.

Twiggyish

Monday, September 09, 2002 - 10:55 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Oregon, exactly and I miss Bill Maher, too.
I'm sick of a lot of things right now. I just want to shut off the tv and go do something proactive. I know, now I sound like a motivational speaker.

Vanillarose

Monday, September 09, 2002 - 12:02 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Maris, I haven't seen anyone here defending the Taliban or Al Queda. I don't think anyone at all would deny that they're really nasty fellows. I just don't agree that it's ok to take lives in return for what some of their people did to us.

Maris

Monday, September 09, 2002 - 12:32 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
My point is in a war, people get killed including some civilians. Civilians were killed in Dresden and civilians were killed in Hiroshima. Both German and Japan declared war on the US. The fact is that war is not neat.

We are at war. This was not an eye for an eye. This was about telling another government hand over the criminals. The other Government refused and we went to war. This was not a one sided incident where the US just went in and bombed a country indiscriminately.

Kaili

Monday, September 09, 2002 - 01:47 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
My point is simply that war or not, I don't see that as a very good justification for killing people. I agree that Bush is using Sept. 11 for his own agenda (thank you, Vanillarose for addressing that- I had already copied the line to address it, but you covered exactly what I was thinking). I don't care if it is a war- I'm not comparing us to terrorists, but I don't feel state sanctified murder of innocent lives is that much more justifiable. I'm not condoning anyone because I feel we are in a big, nasty mess right now. And, yteah, I'm against the death penalty too and proud to live in a state that does not have it. Our governments response to Sept. 11 was not the best case scenario. Mistakes or not, we killed innocent people.

As I have said, I feel for those who were hurt, lost loved ones, or had any negative anything come out of the attacks. They were awful and wrong. However, there are things our government does that makes people hate us. I think people should step back from their emotions about the attacks and try to figure out what it is that people hate about us. No, the people we are dealing wih are not likely to be reasoned with, but maybe we should try another approach. For every person we kill in our war on terror, how many new terrorists do you think WE are creating? Why do you think people were dancing in the streets after the attacks celebrating what happened to us?

Kaili

Monday, September 09, 2002 - 01:49 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Maris..."This was not a one sided incident where the US just went in and bombed a country indiscriminately"....

I'm just curious as to what you think about the bombing of Iraq?

Azriel

Monday, September 09, 2002 - 02:04 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Kali, I went back and read your original post that started all of this discussion. When I was in Europe I had a few discussions about this. We are viewed as arrogant. But guess what? The French think Germans are arrogant. The Dutch think French and Germans are arrogant. The Germans think the French are arrogant. Well, you get my point.

I had glass bottles of beer on my carry on and I was let through. Sorry, but I feel glass bottles are more dangerous than fingernail clippers. I haven't been in first class in a long time, but are meals still served with wine glasses and metal utensils? As for not being allowed past security without a ticket- they do not ask for ID at this point but only look at your ticket. If someone really wanted access to that part of the airport they could purchase a ticket to walk though- even a ticket in someone else's name. But regardless, I don't believe the next attack will involve airplanes.

All the glasses and utensils are plastic now. You cannot get on any plane without showing your picture id and ticket before you enter the boarding gate. You got through with a glass bottle. Yes, people still get through with things because unless they strip search every person and go through every piece of luggage and have perfect security personel that are 100% observant, then they can't be 100% sure that nothing gets through. We will never be completely safe flying. The logistics of securing that safety are impossible and I don't think we can expect the airlines to maintain perfection.

People have always hated us, and to be honest I believe that we should be looking at why we are hated around the world rather than having a "with us or against us" mentality.

Call me arrogant, but there is nothing that our nation has done to justify the terrorism of Sept. 11.

We do not understand that the people who do suicide bombings and that are willing to die for their cause often do not know any other way to live.

Sorry, I don't buy ignorance as an excuse for suicide bombing. The majority of the suicide bombers are young, but well educated. The problem is what their being taught by their religious leaders and their government and we have no control over that. I don't understand why you think that somehow excuses their actions. It seems like you think if we send people over to talk to them and tell them how wonderful freedom can be it will change everything?

Timothy McVeigh was an American and he killed as heartlessly as did the Sept. 11th attackers.

The campaign against terrorism does not have any borders. The terrorism in our own country is also under attack.

So, in closing, I know that many will probably disagree with me on 99% of what I said and I can deal with that. We all have our own opinions. I stand by mine, but I respect you for yours

Yes, we agree at least 1% here. I do respect your opinion and your right to disagree with me. :)

Maris

Monday, September 09, 2002 - 02:21 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Kaili -

I against the bombing of Iraq for the following reasons:

1) I haven't seen enough evidence to support that Sadaam Hussein has nuclear weapon capability.

2) The UN should deal with this since Iraq is in violation of Security Council resolutions. Let the UN send troops in if they feel it is necessary.

3) Who is Iraq a threat to? If it is a threat to Saudi Arabia, let them take care of their problems. I have had enough of US going in and saving people who turn around and say we didnt need saving. I dont see an attack of Iraq is in self defense.

I have no problem with this country going to war if we are threatened or if it is in self defense. I dont see that is the case here.

Kaili

Monday, September 09, 2002 - 06:54 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Okay everyone...I've been gone most of the day. We all have our own opinions on this and as I said, I would not like to not have varied opinions in the world. Still, I stand by mine. I support freedom and am glad we can be free to discuss this. Rationally.

Azriel- I appreciate that you took the time to look at my post and address my thoughts. About the ID, yes you need it at the gate, but at the security checkpoint I have only been asked to show my ticket. That's what I was referring to. The glass bottles- I actually passed through twice with beer bottles in my bag- once in March and again in July. But again, that's how I see it- I don't think airports are that much safer than they were before.

Maris- I also appreciate your reply regarding Iraq. I respect you even more for your opinion on it because it shows that you are NOT blindly following as so many, in my opinion, are. You are obviously looking at each event that comes up as a seperate situation, and I applaud that.

We will never agree on this, I'm sure. I won't change my mind and I know I can't change anyone else's. I'm not trying to either- I just wanted to put my opinion out there and I'm glad I got responses. Regardless of the fact that we may disagree or agree and that it's a no-win argument- I enjoy discussing stuff like this.

I was thinking that maybe a "World Events" thread should be started since we went off the 9/11 topic and into Iraq. Rather than multiple Sept. 11 threads and Bush must Stop threads we could have one single one for any big event that may occur. I know political discussions can get heated and sticky but as long as everyone is respectful of eachother, they can work. I think that despite our enormously varied opinions on this thread, we did quite well.

Grooch

Monday, September 09, 2002 - 08:22 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I was just emailed this website tonight.

http://www.rollingrequiem.org/

Willsfan

Tuesday, September 10, 2002 - 01:01 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I wonder if our world will change again this Sept. 11th? Will the bombing of Iraq start? I hope the President and our Congress think everything through and not rush into something that could last the rest of my lifetime.

BTW I am thankful that as Sept. 11 nears all my family and friends are alive and well. The past year has been no better or worse for me and I am thankful for that also.

Twiggyish

Tuesday, September 10, 2002 - 05:48 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Grooch, that's a beautiful global memorial. I might try to make the one south of me.

Babyruth

Tuesday, September 10, 2002 - 10:05 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Helpful info on coping with 9-11 anxiety:

Coping with 9-11 anniversary

Maris

Tuesday, September 10, 2002 - 10:39 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Thanks Kaili, but I am still not sure what the coorelation is between the Afghan War and Iraq.

I do not think that they are even remotely related. This isnt a Bush foreign policy issue, this isnt about Bush and whether you are republican or democrat, conservative or liberal. This is about trying to eliminate a force of evil that is so great it is incomprehensible.

If you are interested in reading a long but detailed article, page two goes into some detail about he co dependency between the taliban and Al Quaeda.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/09/10/international/asia/10QAED.html