Archive through September 25, 2002
TV ClubHouse: Archive: Bush must stop:
Archive through September 25, 2002
Azriel | Tuesday, September 24, 2002 - 11:59 pm     Faerygdds, I understand if someone disagrees with Bush and thinks he is making a mistake. I understand if someone doesn't support Bush and thinks he is doing something stupid. What I don't understand is how anyone can seriously believe that he is a mass murderer, because THAT is what you are saying if you actually believe this. You can disagree with someone's ideology without demonizing them. I HATE Clinton's politics and I think he did some very questionable things in his personal and financial life, but I would NEVER accuse him of something so heinous and inhuman. I repeat again people, THINK OF WHAT YOU ARE SAYING! |
Saph036 | Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 12:31 am     A few Bush quotes: "A dictatorship would be a heck of a lot easier, there's no question about it." "I am mindful of the difference between the executive branch and the legislative branch. I assured all four of these leaders that I know the difference, and that difference is they pass the laws and I execute them." "The liberal media and many of the pundits said I was stupid . . . They misunderestimated me." Yes, he really said this: "I know the human being and fish can coexist peacefully." Yes, these are actual Bush quotes and there are hundreds more... This man is leading our country and ready to send our nation into perpetual wars. I'd dig out my passport but I'm not quite sure where I'd be safe anyway... ;) |
Saph036 | Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 12:58 am     Azriel, It was my post that got you a little miffed. So, I shall respond on my behalf and give faerygdds support. This is highly sensitive issue and most people do NOT want to believe that their president could allow such a horrific tragedy. It took me awhile to stomach it. I still try to deny it. However, there is just too much information out there to ignore it. I do not like to address the whole issue but it happened and it should not be ignored. If we leave it up to this administration and media to be truthful then I wouldn't hold my breath. There is a huge cover up and ALL people may not know the truth for years and years to come. However, the information is out there via internet. Yes, the internet because it's not run by huge government corporations yet. If you are anyone would like to read the articles and search sites dealing with 9-11 and Bush I will accomadate you. I am apprehensive to post links and such because I do not want to violate any board rules. So, I hope no harm nor foul has been done here. |
Hillbilly | Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 04:01 am     Saph...most internet providers allow their customers so much space to put up their own personal websites. If you have alot of documentation you could publish there and provide a link. That way you could continually add as you got more. I personally disagree with you on this but I also think you have the right to speak your mind as long as you're not advocating violence or slander. |
Muttley | Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 04:45 am     Saph, I'm glad to see you here. I never (okay, rarely) jump into the Bush admin discussions here. I'm relatively new, and my opinions on the man, the myth, and the posse are negative-- extremely so. I want to know why I must go to a war I most certainly do not want with a congress who is somehow afraid to raise any objections to a man who is president with no mandate? Back in 2000, I was angry, but mostly I had an unexplainable feeling of fear and dread. It seems I was justified. He hasn't the faintest idea how to participate with the rest of the planet on the world stage. He has isolated us with his policies on the environment and human rights, but now he is dangerously out of step with the UN (and every other country besides England and Israel) and willing to jeopardize important relationships-- all for a "regime change" that will put us in a terrible position, ultimately. I am tired of this inept bumbler who has reduced my retirement fund to cat food on his watch, given me an ill-advised tax cut while robbing the government for these wars, regime changes, and whatever else he, Poppy, and his energy baron buddies need to increase their own personal fortunes. |
Fluff | Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 05:39 am     Hey Saph. You're not alone. I love those quotes. I think our president would be a great comedian, if he ever took that on as a career. I always laugh at him for some reason. Not to be mean, or anything, I just think he's funny. |
Margie | Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 07:12 am     Saph, you are definitely not alone. Before anyone completely dismisses the idea that Bush may have known, check out these articles. If Bush knew, he should be impeached and tried for treason. If he did not know, he should be impeached and tried for criminal stupidity. http://www.buzzflash.com/perspectives/2002/Bush_Knew.html That is a page full of links to articles pointing out that: Jeb signed a martial law order in Florida four days before the attack, On 9/10 top pentagon officials cancelled their flights for the next morning citing security concerns, Ashcroft stopped flying commercial airlines before the attacks, and we had numerous warnings both from our own intelligence sources and foreign governments. |
Saph036 | Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 07:30 am     Muttley, I am happy that you expressed yourself. I feel exactly as you do. I mean that man can rarely put a sentence together. Where is the media? When Clinton was in office we basically knew when the man went to the bathroom. I do not want to become a relentless poster here. So, for you and anyone who may want to get information or discuss Bush politics: e-mail me at Saph036@hotmail.com. Also, for basic knowledge you can go to democrats.com Ok... |
Saph036 | Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 07:56 am     Margie, Thanks for the site link. I believe I have every other site. lol. After looking it over it is exactly what I have UNFORTUNATELY already read... You would think that if all US common folk are aware of this info that the media would run with it! What will it take for people to become aware? Anyway, if you can't tell i'm one of those "conspiracy theorist!" I've got BUSH KNEW bumper stickers that I place everywhere. I'm going to my first demonstration this weekend. I'm in Houston and the prez will be here sat. I'll be the one holding up the sign to IMPEACH BUSH! Well, you made my day, Margie! www.democrats.com |
Margie | Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 10:35 am     Saph, I'm impressed! I live in the Chicago area, and I'm not so sure I'd have the guts to put a Bush Knew sticker on my car. Some of the more fanatical wingnuts might ensure my car had less of a resale value when I got back to it. With Texas being largely republican, not to mention Bush's adopted home State, have you had any problems? I love democrats.com, they're one of the best sites out there. Bartcop.com is a terrific site too. It's more of a political humor site, but if you want to speak to like-minded left leaning people, you can't beat the bartcop forum: http://www.bartcopnation.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi I'm generally not a conspiracy theorist. I didn't want to believe that Bush could have known in advance, but after looking into it, that really may be the case. If he didn't know in advance he's incompetent. Either way he's in the wrong job. ...And if there's any coverage at all of the Houston demonstration, I'll keep a look out for you. |
Azriel | Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 10:35 am     Okay this is what I don't understand in your way of thinking. The government gets hundreds of intelligence reports every day and there is no way they can just go arrest people for what they might do. Why do I think that? Well, go look at the rest of this thread. All of you are saying you don't care what intelligence reports Bush has, you think he shouldn't go into Iraq and stop Hussein before he does something. Make up your minds! I guarantee you before 9/11 if the government had gone on raids of the terrorist sleeper cells and arrested people that had done nothing yet we would be all be involved in a discussion of civil rights for the terrorists right now. So now Bush is trying to stop a madman based on intelligence reports he has recieved and all of you are saying NO! He shouldn't listen to intelligence reports, he should wait till Hussien does something. Good grief, classic damned if you do and damned if you don't scenario. |
Margie | Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 10:47 am     Azriel, if you were referring to me at all, you've got it wrong. I DO care what intelligence reports he has. I DO care what proof he has. The problem is, he hasn't presented any. Tony Blair came out with his *proof*, but the newspapers over there ripped it apart saying just like Bush's *proof* there was nothing there but 10+ year old accusations. I think I'm being entirely consistent here. Bush should have paid attention to the evidence he had before 9/11 and done something about it. And he should pay attention to whatever evidence he has about Iraq. Unfortunately, he hasn't come up with anything. We still haven't gotten the terrorists who hit us and now we're going to be turning the countries (whose help we need to go after the terrorists) against us. They're not going to turn over Al Queda or give us intelligence against them if they're up in arms against us. You see, by going into Iraq right now, we're actually easing up a lot of the pressure on Al Queda. Why the heck would we want to do something that stupid? You bet we would be discussing civil rights if the government had rounded up, detained and questioned all the middle easterners before 9/11 like they did after 9/11. As a matter of fact we should still be discussing it now. It is easy to throw away your freedoms because you are afraid, but darn it this is outrageous. They are locking people up INDEFINITELY without any proof. Without releasing their names. Without lettings them see lawyers. Without even letting their families know they have them. This is not nazi germany. This is not communist russia. This is America and we do have civil rights. It is more important to protect those rights in time of war than in a time of peace. If we let our rights be taken away so easily, then we don't deserve to call ourselves Americans. |
Judyjetson | Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 10:53 am     AMEN Azriel!! I know exactly where you're coming from and couldn't have said it better myself. If Gore were in the WH, they'd be singing a whole different tune. It's ALMOST humorous. |
Marysafan | Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 11:17 am     Well said, Margie. |
Fluff | Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 11:17 am     Hey Margie. I just wish that they would go and get the other guy first. You know, while Bush is busy planning attacks on Iraq, Osama could be in a cave somewhere planning another attack on our country or somewhere else. I don't get it at all. We had proof on that guy. Why let that one drop? |
Judyjetson | Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 11:22 am     "Despite our swift victory and all our efforts since, there is no doubt in my mind that Saddam Hussein still seeks to amass weapons of mass destruction. You know as well as I do: as long as Saddam Hussein stays in power, there can be no comprehensive peace for the people of Israel or the people of the Middle East. We have made it clear that it is our policy to see Saddam Hussein gone." |
Margie | Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 12:29 pm     Fluff, I agree. Bin Laden and Al Queda hit the WTC and the pentagon a little over a year ago. The country was up in arms. Bush's opinion rating had been abysmal, but when he said we're going to get the guys who did this to us, it skyrocketed. Everyone wanted payback -- me included. I wanted the heads of whoever was responsible. Dead or alive, Bush said. I was totally in agreement. So what is happening now? One year later we don't hear the words Bin Laden from this administrations lips. Bush said he doesn't matter anymore. His heirarchy is intact, he's still alive and has never been brought to justice, but Bin Laden still "doesn't matter" to Bush anymore. Well I'd like to say that he matters to me. He matters to everyone I know and he matters to everyone who was hurt on September 11, 2001. Bush is trying to change the debate to Iraq because he's been a failure at getting Bin Laden. Our attention spans are not THAT short. We don't forget so easily. Judy, Just like that old commercial... "Where's the Beef?" Bush has shown no proof to the public, yet he expects us to back him 100%. Not likely. We've seen enough crooked politicians to not follow them blindly. Every other president has come forward with some kind of proof to the American public when they want to mobilize us in a war. Is GWB so special that we should follow him without question? I don't follow anyone unquestioningly. |
Kaili | Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 02:24 pm     That's the big problem here- show us the proof regarding Saddam. Before the Cuban Missile Crisis we were shown that there was cause to do something. They could get support because the nation was shown evidence of a threat. Right now we have nothing. We are being told to just go along with it because they know what is best and they have proof. Well, without seeing it, I don't believe it. I just got done teaching a lesson about the Punic Wars. In the third Punic War, Rome went in and attacked Carthage after 50 years of peace. Why? They didn't want Carthage to have any chance of being able to attack again even though there was no immenent threat of attack. So they went down and burned the city and took over the land to make it a part of their empire. Yeah, it's a weird comparison but it applies in a way. Iraq was beat in the Gulf War. They haven't done anything to us since, but we want to go and attack their country to make sure they never can. We want to put in a new regime (this I compare to turing Cathage into a part of the Roman Empire). I don't think that was a fair attack. They didn't have proof that Carthage was building up their forces to attack again. Not to mention the fact that we switch sides in the middle east at our convenience. It wasn't that long ago that we sided with Iraq against Iran. It's all about the oil. I'm sure they've been sitting around for awhile now planning their attack and dividing up the oil fields in Iraq for our use. If that is the case, maybe GW and his boys would prefer to attack alone- then they wouldn't have to share. |
Faerygdds | Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 03:03 pm     Kaili... what I love best is that many ppl say... they are aquiring weapons of mass destruction (Iraq) and they are going to bom us... well... all the intell I've seen states that his weapons can only go 700 miles... I think we are a LOT further than 700 miles, so I just don't get their thinking... And for those who will retort with "Well... you think we should just LET them bomb Isreal?" I say this... The reality is that the Middle East Crisis has been raging for centuries.. and no matter how hard we try we can not stop the war brewing between the sons of Abraham... the Children of Isaac and Ishmael WILL battle it out at some point or another... it's inevitable... and frankly.. I don't see sacrificing OUR soldiers to the cause helping it... only delaying it. Meanwhile... we are isolating ourselves from the rest of the world... I can recall another super power doing this... it was called the USSR! They too thought that they didn't NEED the rest of the world's support. They too alienated a majority of nations and what was the result??? Well... where are they NOW??? I'm NOT saying we are the same as the USSR, so don't jump to that conclusion... I'm just saying that we are isolating ourselves like they did and it brought THAT super power to it's knees... as it will do to us if we do not learn from their mistake. |
Goddessatlaw | Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 03:58 pm     Nuh uh, you guys . . . LOL. (Sorry - that's the best I can muster right now - I'm in too good a mood. I'll set you straight later - maybe if Dani wins). |
Azriel | Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 04:16 pm     LOL, Goddessatlaw, I don't think anything you can say short of giving them all a top security clearance so they can see 'the proof' would make any difference. I hope you do jump on next time the merry-go-round goes around, though, cuz I love hearing your point of view on this subject. |
Hillbilly | Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 04:18 pm     I hope we never ever stand back and watch as another country tries to exterminate the Jews again. I'm all for supporting and protecting Israel. Funny, I don't hear anyone saying the Balkans have been an area of contention for centuries and we should not be protecting the Muslims in Kosovo. Should we not just let those people fight it out among themselves as well. After all, that's not our fight either. If I remember right that is actually the area that started WWI. And as for the argument that we just want the oil....what about the Stari Trig mines in Kosovo. Some have said that the real aim of sending our troops into Kosovo was to protect our interest in these mines. "But the enormous mineral wealth of Kosovo is never publicly discussed by U.S. United Nations Ambassador Richard Holbrooke, President Bill Clinton or the Pentagon generals. They speak only of "self-determination" of the Albanian population of Kosovo. Of course, they never mention what U.S.-imposed "self-determination" means. It means colonization under the guise of "liberation," like what the U.S. did to Puerto Rico, Cuba and the Philippines a hundred years ago." For the rest of the article, http://www.workers.org/ww/1998/kosovo0730.html |
Margie | Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 04:37 pm     Hillbilly, you can't be saying that because you think we're in Kosovo to protect our interest in the mines, it's therefore ok for us to invade Iraq for their oil?? On top of that you're saying that Isreal's security should come before our own? First things first here. Take care of the guy that DID attack us and poses a real and immediate threat to US RIGHT NOW. (While we are at that maybe we can scrounge up some proof as to why we need to attack Iraq.) Then, after we've brought justice to OBL and Al Queda, we can take on Iraq. If we take out Iraq first we will never catch OBL. He'll have havens world wide. The president gets paid the big bucks because he's supposed to think in the long term interests of the United States. When Bush was running for office, his campaign people said that the president doesn't have to be very intelligent, his staff does the thinking for him and Bush will assemble a terrific administration. Well with all the failures of the Bush administration either his staff isn't as bright as it looks or they're letting Jr. do the thinking for himself. |
Margie | Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 04:42 pm     Azriel, The troop movements are in the paper complete with a detailed map. Everytime there was a fight in Afghanistan it was all over the paper. We all know the timing of the invasion and you're saying we'd need top secret security clearance to know what Hussein is doing? They're constantly giving out information that will put our troops at risk, but saying "Hey! here's a sattelite picture of a nuclear factory!", would tear apart our intelligence structure? Somehow I doubt it. |
Goddessatlaw | Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 04:44 pm     Hillbilly, I agree with every word of your posts on this subject. I can't believe that 50 years later, with a mass extermination of Jews which occurred in my parents' lifetime (blows my mind), that the lessons of WWII have been forgotten. I read the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich many years ago and it had a great impact on me. But, you're right, Azriel - wasted breath. If a Jew-and-American hating mass murderer scouring Africa for uranium isn't worth fighting against, I'm not sure what is. |
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