Archive through June 29, 2002
TV ClubHouse: Archive: Pledge of Allegiance Declared Unconstitutional:
Archive through June 29, 2002
Faerygdds | Friday, June 28, 2002 - 04:23 pm     lol@ majick... I agree... there are MUCH more worthwhile things to go after... (so to speak) That is probably why this has never been addressed... And YOU may not be offended by "under God", but obviously some DO find it offensive. And as far as you having a problem with the pledge being changed at all... ummmm IT HAS BEEN CHANGED!!!! LOL!!!!!!!!!!!! The version WE say now is NOT the original, so I got a really good chuckle out of your post... and I mean that in a good way, not a bad way, so if you think I was angry or just dissed you, go back and read my post and smile while you read it... because I am smiling while I post it. I just find that argument so humorous. My dad and I went 3 rounds on it last night and he said the SAME thing. I told him how we got to the version we currently say and then he sat there and just stammered, "Wow, I didn't know that...really?" He called me back like 2 hours later and said, "You know what, I don't know what to think now." Of course, then again... I was blowing his mental buffer at the age of about 5 with questions like, "If God was going to kill the dinosaurs, then why did he make them in the first place?" (this was after explaining why they disappeared to my big brother lol) How the heck did I get so OT... oh yeah... just woke up and the brain is still asleep. |
Faerygdds | Friday, June 28, 2002 - 04:30 pm     Oh and I forgot to say... don't EVER worry about offending me. The only way to offend me is to give a personal attack. I EXPECT to have LOTS of contrary posts toward me as I almost ALWAYS take the counterpoint. You see... seeing both sides is a knack of mine. And believe it or not.. I am NOT a Libran... I'm a Cancerian!!!!!!!!!!! I know... shocking... |
Magikearth | Friday, June 28, 2002 - 06:55 pm     Faerygdds,I think its great that you can see both sides of the coin! I always learn alot of information whenever I read your posts.That is a cool thing! The fact that you are able to play devil's advocate in such a spirited, thoughtful,charming way..hey, that makes it even better! |
Faerygdds | Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 01:27 am     WOW... what a compliment!!! Thank you SO much. You really have NO idea how much that means to me. It's just part of who I am. When I was around 8, I started asking really tough questions... My Dad invited Father Lynch over for dinner -- OFTEN. I guess you could say I was a born philosopher. Funny thing though... I always thought Father Lynch came over for the Irish Whiskey we always kept on hand... rofl |
Riviere | Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 01:43 am     After not discussing this issue with my 18 yr old high school son, I asked if he could recite the Pledge, he did. I asked if he'd seen the news of the court case, he did. I asked his opinion.. He told me he's always felt 'funny' about the 'god' thing in there since he attends public school with a variety of kids who love America but don't believe in this wording making it seem like we as a united country believe in what he called 'Baptist idea of god' televangelists started. Hmmmm... |
Azriel | Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 02:38 am     Well, let me put my 10 foot pole aside and wade in here. This country was founded by Christians and they weaved their beliefs into the fabric of our nation. Through the years we have continued to modify and change things, but Christian beliefs have prevailed because even if our country is a 'melting pot', the majority of our citizens believe in Judeo-Christian ethics just as the founders did. I feel like this man has just wasted government time and money. If there comes a time when our government forces anyone to say the pledge, then I'll get all riled up and fight to have the words changed or the pledge abolished. The pledge reflects what the majority of the people in this country feel and there is nothing unconstitutional about it. |
Azriel | Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 02:54 am     Someone said something about Muslims and Allah. Allah is the name for the Muslims' one God. The Christians, Jews and Muslims all call one God by different names, but historically you can see that they all worship the same God. |
Llkoolaid | Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 08:25 am     I am Canadian, your pledge is absolutely none of my business, but if I may express my opinion on the ruling it is simply this. After Sept 11, your country seemed to pull together in a way that I have never seen before. With all the turmoil that is going on I think it is petty and disloyal to be messing with the pledge of allegance (sp). There are bigger and more important issues that your government need to be dealing with. I hope for the sake of the American people that this issue is resolved very quickly. At times like this you need to be pulling together, not apart. Ignore me if you wish, it really is none of my business. |
Faerygdds | Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 09:30 am     OK... let me preface this by saying that I was in tears almost all night, with the exception of about 20 minutes when Magik made me feel a little better. I got into the discussion with my Mother... and now... I really need to vent... I hope that's ok with all of you, but frankly... I need opinions... not attacks, but opinions... <sigh> Let me start by saying That I was born and raised Catholic, but I questioned everything from the time I could talk until well... what time is it now??? I was the kid who every week made us go to church.. I sang in the choir... I was very devout. Unfortunately for me... I began to see the hypocracy of the Church and it's parishoners at a young age. There was a girl at school that was being beaten by her parents.... and i used to sit behind them at church... you get the idea. Moving on...Remember I said out Priest used to come over for dinner? well... as I got older I sought him out for answers. When I was around 14, the big revalation came -- I did not believe in what the Catholic Church believed. So I wandered from Church to Church... religion to religion... until I realized that none of it was for me because I didn't believe in, well... Christianity. I knew I believed in something far more "Earth based". I searched some more and found a bit of solace in my ancestry... I'm part Indian. And when I was in my early, early 20's... I went to a sweat... and everything thing became CRYSTAL clear -- I was Pagan. I'm not Wiccan, or Druidic, or Bhuddist, or Hindu... I'm "technically" a Neo Pagan. What that means is that I believe in a little bit of all religions rolled into one. It's an ecclectic view of the heavens. I, personally, don't believe in ONE God, but rather millions... let me explain... (note: I'm not trying to convert anyone, just trying to let you know where I am coming from k?) I believe in the collective unconscious. That somehow we are all connected, each person to every other person on the planet -- in some cosmic type way. That collective "omnipotent" knowledge is what others point to and call "God". To me, it's why God is all knowing and all powerful, because He is US. I know that may seem like a difficult concept to wrap your brain around (not to mentioned it's a really simplified version)... my goodness.... it took me 6 years to wrap my brain around it, but that's ultimatly what I believe. Now... back to my Mother -- She is still a devout Catholic in her heart, but does not attend church or anything. I call her a "convenient Christian", meaning that she only belives in God and thinks about "Him" when it's convenient for her. Not to say that she doesn't have FAITH! She has a ton of faith, she's just not a "very good Christian" if you go by attendance, etc. She knows what I believe and her comments on it go somthing like this: - I know in your heart you still believe in Christ - One day you'll come back to the church - I'll keep praying for you to find your way back to the light. UGH! I have told her for the last 6 years that I don't want to convert her, but I simply ask that she repect my beliefs, and thereby respect me for who AND what I am. Needless to say... we don't discuss religion most of the time because well, frankly... it hurts too much. Well, last night it all came to a head. We started talking about the pledge and were having a civilized discussion about the politics and history involved, when she suddenly got very anrgy and started yelling into the phone, "All these stupid athiests and Pagans are trying to take OUR god away from US! THEY want to take it out of the pledge and off our money... what does that leave us with?!" My reply was -- "It leaves you with your FAITH!" (I said this in a very calm tone... to try to calm her down, but it seemed to just make her more angry) She kept yelling and after about 5 minutes of hearing US and THEM (Christians vs non) I began to realize somthing that literally shattered me... *I* was one of the THEM that she hated! I started to say something (can't remember what) about -- "what if *I*, me Mom"... I got cut off and she yelled at me - don't say it!!! I then changed to, "What if an athiest..." It stopped me cold - I guess the child in me... HER child... felt betrayed and utterly -- rejected. I realized that she has no respect for my beliefs, even though I have the utmost repect for hers. That she didn't accept me for who I am and what I am -- a Pagan, when I accept totally who she is - A Catholic. I realized that bottom line - I idolized her for her morals, ethics, and values. I realized that I loved my Mother UNCONDITIONALLY, yet she denies who I am and that is the only way she can love me, because , after all -- she could NEVER love a Pagan. I spent the whole night crying and finally fell asleep aroud 5:30 this morning. Now here's where I need your help in understanding something... My Mother argued that WE (the athiests and Pagans) are trying to take religion away from you (the Judeo-Christians). OK... here's my thoughts. The Christian Church (esp the Cath Church) has taken religion away from us for hundreds of years. They have held inquistions, burned people at the stake, drowned innocent women in the sea -- simply for not believing in their "version" of God. Pagans have been not just denyed their faith, but persecuted for it for CENTURIES! Now, you would think that evolution had taken care of little of the fear and animosity, but it doesn't seem so. It still happens today. My husband got a job a few years back at State Farm. A closet Wiccan saw his necklace (a Celtic pentacle) and told him to not wear it. She then explained that if he were to be seen by "certain employees" that he would be reported as being in a CULT and practicing the OCCULT!!! She told him that he would be fired, no questions asked and those "facts" would be on his perm record with State Farm and would be given out during ANY reference call. He was also told that someone tried to sue SF for being fired over bring a book about Wicca to work, basing freedom of religion, and it was thrown out of court -- meanwhile they added a line to his perm record at SF - "Employee was deemed as a possible danger to others." I was shocked! ( I say this because many don't realize that this still happens today) So here is my dilemma - Christians (My Mom) feel(s) that we are trying to take God away, but meanwhile Pagans are still persecuted in this country for their beliefs. Do you see what I'm getting at... "We" have been hiding our religion for hundreds of years to make "you" more comfortable, while holding our faith dear to ourselves. Now we are at a precipuce. A chance to make it right again -- a chance to embrace each other as patriots rather than be divided as Christians and Non. What's wrong with that? I got a little upset at her at one point and said something to the effect of... "We leave you with your faith, which should be stronger than any words or any declaration, so if your faith isn't strong enough to not have the reminders... WHOSE PROBLEM IS THAT?" My tone left a lot to be desired... I was hurt and anrgy... after all... I had just been denied in every way by the woman that I idiolize MOST in this world -- My own Mother. I calmed down and as usual changed the subject so she would... well... still love me. It wasn't until hours later, and 5000 replays in my brain that I just totally broke down... Can someone PLEASE PLEASE explain to me how I'm supposed to feel compassion and understanding for a woman who feels her religion is being taken from her while she meanwhile OVERTLY takes mine away from me each and every day? I know there are others out there that feel the same way she does -- that we are trying to take your God away from you. It's your help I need. All I ask is this... I need help, but right now... I'm still a little fragile... but I just can't figure this one out... How is it fair to say that we are trying to take your religion away when for hundreds of years we have been hiding ours for you? Why are you "allowed" your faith, when we are denied ours? How is that right??? I just DON'T get that part. Let me end by saying I brought this here because I really do love you guys and I'm rambling again. You have all been EXTREMELY respectful of my views even though you don't necessarily agree with them. And I think you would all agree that if nothing else... I AM respectful of yours as well. Again, please, no personal attacks. Opinions (even heated ones) are welcomed, just don't attack me - I just don't think my heart could take it right now. Blessed Be, FaeryGdds |
Faerygdds | Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 09:57 am     Just re-read through that whole diatribe above... sorry for rambling on too long, but I have ISSUES! |
Bob2112 | Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 10:01 am     Here's a spongey hug! {{{{{Faerygdds}}}}} |
Spygirl | Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 10:22 am     Faery, this issue is bigger than I can possibly explain in text. I do happen to feel the way your mother does about my God being taken away from me -- not my religion. Religion is persecuted in more ways on a daily basis than I can begin to explain. I also see your side of the coin about paganism being persecuted against as well. Unfortunately, Christians and Pagans are on opposite sides of this particular issue and I don't think there is an answer or a solution. It is unfortunate that you and your mom happen to be on the opposite sides. Accepting you and accepting your religious preferences are two different things in my worldview. I can accept someone but not agree with many of their life choices. Many people cannot do that. That works both ways in this case. Can you accept your mom even though she disagrees with your religion? I'm not sure, but I wish you luck in what I know must be a very difficult and hurtful situation for you  |
Wcv63 | Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 10:32 am     Fairygdds it seems to me as if both you and your mother feel betrayed on some level. Sometimes when talking to my mother on the phone I find myself making little noises of agreement because I realize that she is venting and not really looking for anything but someone to understand her. Doesn't mean I necessarily agree with what she is saying but she feels validated when our conversation is over. Just so that you know I do understand your point, I'll have you know I'm a lapsed Catholic as well. My beliefs have changed to the "God is everywhere, prayer can by done by word and deed everyday, a church is not necessary in order for God to know my love." However as you know, devout Catholics believe that if someone doesn't accept Christ as their Lord and Savior......well you know the rest. Perhaps your mother is in fear for your immortal soul? Not unusual for a parent, and depending on the strength of her own beliefs may have her very conflicted. Believe me I am not suggesting that your immortal soul is in danger...that's not for me to judge. A parent never stops being a parent. This is something I didn't fully understand until I had children of my own. I can see how my own mother worries about her four grown children constantly. Try seeing your mother's words and actions not as a lack or respect for your beliefs but instead as those of a worried parent. Ultimately the only person who has to be comfortable with your faith is yourself. Good luck..... |
Llkoolaid | Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 10:38 am     Faerygdds, perhaps your mother is speaking out of fear for you her child. She strongly believe in her faith. Because of her love for you she is striking out against what she believes will hurt you. Mothers are mothers no matter how old you are and I think she is angry at what she sees as a threat to her child. |
Faerygdds | Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 10:39 am     I DO accept her and her religion. COMPLETELY! I guess why this is so hard for me... I'm 3 days away from turning 31 and I've just realized that I have loved her UNCONDITIONALLY for 31 years, meanwhile, when I am around her I am constantly denying who I am (not just religion, but a variety of things), censuring myself, in order to obtain her love in return. And well, it just hurts. I accept her - warts and all, but she only gets the pre-screened abridged watered down version of me. Even my Father sees it. We've had many discussions on it. You know, the fact that I am completely different when she is not in the room. He notices it. He calls it "Natalie Light". His take is that I should just keep denying myself to her and hold on to her in any way that I can because she won't be here forever. I know he is right, but somehow it just never feels right. I feel like a liar around her. I guess it doesn't matter how old I get.... the child in me needs her love and desires it more than anything else in the world. And right now I'm just -- well, devastated because I know in 3 days we will all sit down to celebrate the day of my birth and I will be with all the people I love, and only half of them at the table will know who I am and love me - warts and all. Hey Moderator: can you move this discussion into my member folder as it seems to be veering WAY OT... Like I said... have issues... no... scratch that... I have SUBSCRIPTIONS! |
Llkoolaid | Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 10:42 am     I was posting at the same time as Wcv63, but they said it much better than I did. |
Spygirl | Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 10:49 am     Faery, just to clarify, I didn't ask if you could accept your mom and her religion, I asked if you could accept her even though she does not accept your religion. Those are two different things. Can you continue to love her even though you know you know for a fact she hates what you believe? She doesn't hate you, but what you believe. One thing to add, although this may not come across very well, is that it has been your choice all along to pretend to be something else in order to gain your mother's love. Your feelings of resentment right now cannot be blamed on your mother because it was your choice to pretend and be something you are not. Take responsibility for that and decide whether continuing to have those feelings of resentment is worth gaining some perceived love by a woman who would likely love you anyway. I respectfully but clearly disagree with your father No, she will likely never love your religion or even accept it -- see Wcv's post for clarification on why -- but she will still love you. Just food for thought.  |
Wcv63 | Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 10:52 am     Fairygdds, your mother does love you warts and all. Love does not preclude disagreements with ones choices and beliefs. Acceptance of those choices and beliefs would not necessarily make her love for you greater...it would however make you feel validated. Just as she believes that you have rejected her belief system, you feel as if she is rejecting YOU. I certainly know what's it like to not be able to fully be myself around my loved ones because they don't understand very fundamental parts of who *I* am. It's not that I don't trust them to continuing loving me. I don't trust them to continuing supporting me. It's a trade-off. I need their support so I hold back certain elements that might compromise our relationship. Should it be this way? I don't know. Who knows. Maybe it's the way things have been done since time immemorial. |
Karuuna | Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 11:10 am     Faery - In some ways I can certainly identify with your story. I never bought the straight-line Christian faith, and still don't. But even tho I still identify mostly with Christianity (with an eclectic mixture of other faiths thrown in); many Christians don't consider me a Christian. Sigh. Here's how I've dealt with that. Their sincere desire to "reconvert" me is out of their love for me. They want me to go to heaven, and fear that I am not. Personally, I'm not worried about it. However, from them I can accept that what they want for me is out of their love me for, even if they think I'm on the wrong road. So, when they tell me I need to "accept Jesus", I say thank you very much for your caring. I truly appreciate it. Okay, and under my breath I say, thank you for teaching me patience! |
Karuuna | Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 11:11 am     And by the way, in true faith, no one can take God away from you. Just ain't possible. What some are trying to do is to keep others from forcing their "view of God" on them. That's a whole 'nuther animal. |
Faerygdds | Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 11:15 am     I see what you guys are saying... and you guys are REALLY fabulous. My husband is is awe right now... saying things like, "Wow, what an enlightened bunch of people". I smiled and told him that this is why I post here, because you guys ARE so great! The tears are free flowing while I type this. I get it now... and yes... I have always taken responsibility for my choice of hiding myself, but in the past I have seen the consequences of trying to be myself around her. I even told her one day that she didn't really know me. We talked about it and I revealed some little things about myself to her that I knew she would not like. The result was that she barred me from her life and "OFFICIALLY" cut me off from the family for 6 months. Since then... well... you know the rest. I don't know. maybe wcv is right... maybe it's just the way things are with parnets and children. Just another one of those Cosmic Tangos of Truth that we play with them. You all are right... it IS about validation. And more than that it's about being sad because I really WANT her to know who I am to my core. I want to celebrate with her the wonderful, special person that SHE helped create and I can't because I fear she will cut me off forever... I guess the big question I have to ask myself is this... How long am I willing to go on like this in my relationship to her until I can no longer look myself in the mirror? And is it worth the risk to just be myself even if it means never seeing them again? BTW... I have been "officially" cut off 3 times in my life since I was 17. So yeah... I'm REALLY scared but I don't know if can keep lying to her anymore. I no longer sure if it IS worth it... ok... now I'm losing it... I hate paradoxes... |
Karuuna | Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 11:19 am     Faery - one other caution as I read your post -- if you really want to accept your mother unconditionally, that means you have to also accept her dismay about your choice of religion. Does that make sense? It's only when you stop trying to change someone, to get them to be what you want them to be, that you really accept them fully. I suspect if you can start thinking of it that way, and stop trying to get her to understand and accept you (which you have no control over); and spend more time trying to accept even the ugly side of her, the more at peace you will feel. |
Faerygdds | Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 11:20 am     Karuuna... THANKS.. you just cracked me up!!! You see... I have believed for a VERY long time that my life's lesson is patience. Congruently, I also believe that we choose our parents. And have, therefore, always known that I this battle is pretty much my trials with patience. No one can try it more than my Mother. Complete stranger on the street can spit in my face and I will laugh... but she says one word, and I fall apart. ISSUES ISSUES ISSUES <<And by the way, in true faith, no one can take God away from you. Just ain't possible. What some are trying to do is to keep others from forcing their "view of God" on them. That's a whole 'nuther animal>> You see... now that's what I think... of course... I could be wrong... |
Faerygdds | Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 11:23 am     <<Faery - one other caution as I read your post -- if you really want to accept your mother unconditionally, that means you have to also accept her dismay about your choice of religion. Does that make sense? >> don't get me wrong... I accept it... it just HURTS! edited to add: I call it "Mom's Rose Colored World". She's really cute about it... you know... if your hair isn't a "natural" type color then you are a punker... you know LOTS of wierd stereotypes. She really is cute about it... I can recall driving down the street and she saw a man with tatooes and she looked at me and gasped, "He must be on drugs!" I just gave her the funniest look and cracked up on the inside, so yes, I do truly accept her ugly side. Heck, sometimes I even find it amusing.  |
Wcv63 | Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 11:30 am     Fairygdds you do realize that "cutting somebody off" and putting them out of their life is a way for that person to build a wall to protect themself right? It's an action based on fear and inability to emotionally cope. I don't agree with putting up emotional armor but I've seen it done many times by many people. Your desire to be fully accepted is not unique but it may be a little ambitious. For example: Even though I love my children unconditionally it doesn't preclude me being disappointed or dismayed by certain traits they may have. Doesn't mean I don't love them. Doesn't mean I don't accept them. And it certainly doesn't mean I'm gonna keep my mouth shut about it! |
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