Archive through September 26, 2002
TV ClubHouse: Archive: Bush must stop:
Archive through September 26, 2002
Margie | Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 04:47 pm     ...And Goddess, Bush AND Dani? Why don't you just add Satan and you have the trifecta! (Ducks and runs screaming: "I'm just joking!" while weaving through the barrage of rotten tomatoes Goddess is whipping at me) |
Goddessatlaw | Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 04:50 pm     Oh Lawd Miss Margie - and we have to look at Joshie tonight - Satan's Final Solution. What are this world coming to? I've dealt with cancer, tornados, broken ribs, tropical storms and people picking on my man Bush this week. Do it go on? Do it get worse? |
Azriel | Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 04:55 pm     Margie, the Iraqis wouldn't have a nuclear factory with a big arrow pointing to it and Nuclear Factory printed on the top of it. If they had a picture of it, it would most likely be a picture of one of Hussein's royal palaces. You wouldn't be able to tell that anything was going on there from a picture. All of these things are hidden! That's why we had to send in weapon inspectors before and that's why the weapon inspectors were prevented from doing their job and turned away because they were getting too close to the hidden factories. |
Hillbilly | Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 04:57 pm     No Margie...I didn't say that at all. You said that. You took what I posted and twisted it to suit the purpose at hand. If we're not going to protect the Jews because its not our fight, then we need to pull our troops out of South Korea, South Vietnam, Bosnia, Kosovo, Croatia, Haiti, Somalia, Tiawan (which I'm sure would delight China to no end) and anywhere else we have them because those are not our fights either. And as for the oil/mine issue...that is just for the post above where they are saying Bush just wants Iraq's oil. The same could be said for Kosovo...we just wanted access to all their mineral wealth and to keep it out of Russian control. Milosovich (sp) and Yeltsin were close to completing an agreement giving Russia access to the mines. |
Ocean_Islands | Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 05:31 pm     We don't have any troops in South Vietnam or Taiwan. But I agree -- all these troops should be pulled out. |
Judyjetson | Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 05:39 pm     BTW - the quote in my previous post was from the mouth of Algore. |
Hillbilly | Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 05:46 pm     My mistake on South Korea (are you sure about Tiawan?), Ocean, but at least you understood the point I was making. |
Faerygdds | Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 05:46 pm     <<If we're not going to protect the Jews because its not our fight, then we need to pull our troops out of South Korea, South Vietnam, Bosnia, Kosovo, Croatia, Haiti, Somalia, Tiawan (which I'm sure would delight China to no end) and anywhere else we have them because those are not our fights either. >> I completely concur! |
Hillbilly | Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 05:53 pm     Well...at least you're consistent and not just discriminating against the Jews. Quite frankly, I firmly believe that Israel is capable of defending themselves. It's the US that is tying their hands. We are the ones that are keeping them in check to make Europe and the UN happy. |
Hillbilly | Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 05:57 pm     Does anyone know if its possible to get a list of where we currently have troops stationed? I'm not looking for classified info just general info stuff. Do they let us know that kind of info? I'm talking in a 'peacekeeping' role not like Italy or England stuff. |
Faerygdds | Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 06:41 pm     Hill... that's the biggest thing that bothers me when ppl pull the "exterminating the jews" card... I think it says more that those who say generally think that they won't win that battle... who says they won't?? Frankly I think that if Pakistan attacked they would lose. I think there is a verse in Revalations that says the same thing, been awhile since I read it though, so can't remember where it was... |
Kaili | Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 07:13 pm     Hillbilly- go to the Dept. of Defense website... I'll give you a link directly to the menu. Active Duty Military Personnel Go a little ways down the page to where it says "Active Duty Military Personnel by Service by Region/Country" The most recent report is Dec. 31, 2001 but it opens an Acrobat file where there are numbers of troops listed for all over. Hope that helps. It's the best I could do.  |
Hillbilly | Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 07:34 pm     Faery....your post kind of confused me. Would you mind clarifying a bit? If Pakistan attacked who? Thanks Kaili...I was just curious as to what countries we are currently in. It's hard to keep up sometimes. |
Kapow | Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 07:38 pm     I will add that one of my closest friends in the world went to the Gulf War.... and his actual whereabouts were NEVER disclosed in the media. He went "behind enemy lines" on covert operations that were NEVER known by the average citizen. He was in many areas that we (the USA) still say we never went. I have seen his personal pictures of these areas. Just goes to show you that the news does not/ cannot show us the whole picture - hence the idea of classified information. FWIW - my take is that the people in power know a heck of a lot more than we do, so who are we to second guess until after it is over. And even then, we never know the whole truth. While I would like to know EVERYTHING, I understand that it is in the interest of national security to limit what the average citizen knows. JMHO |
Faerygdds | Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 08:11 pm     Sorry Hill... I meant if Pakistan attacked Isreal.... Isreal has the military power to win that battle... therefore the "exterminating the jews" standpoint is invalid. I think it's more insulting for them to think that the rest of the world believes that if attacked they would just be wiped out. Does that make sense? |
Saph036 | Wednesday, September 25, 2002 - 09:36 pm     Why would Bush want to replace Saddam with General Al-Kharazaji? This is the field commander that was in charge of the onslaught against the northern town of Halabja. This was a 48 hour chemical weapons attack that poisoned and burned 5000 Kurds. No, this has not been reported in the U.S. media. This was reported in a reputable paper, "Herald Glasgow", overseas. First of all, why does our media NOT address this? Secondly, why does Bush want to replace Saddam with an equally evil man? This man literally poisoned the people of Iraq. Isn't that Bush's main srguement against Saddam? |
Hillbilly | Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 03:14 am     Faery....I wasn't aware that Pakistan wanted to attack Israel?!!! I know Pakistan and India are at odds over Kashmir. Please don't mistake my earlier post as advocating leaving Israel on its own. I still am for protecting and supporting Israel in any way possible. The 'exterminating the Jews' is not a card being played. It is a true historical event. For some reason I have yet to understand, the Jews are hated by almost all other nations beside the USA and many would rejoice at their destruction. It is unrealistic to think that countries like Russia, Germany, France, and China would stay out of the fray. While maybe not overtly participating, I believe they would be giving Iraq, Iran, and Syria covert assistance. They already have a rise in anti-semitic incidents within the last year. And this IS JUST MY OPINION, so please don't anyone flame me, I expect when we finally do go into Iraq, we are going to find that France, Germany, Russia, and China have been in collusion with Iraq to help them build their arsenal. I believe that is why they are opposing this war and have refused to deal with Iraq for 11 years while Saddam has broken every agreement and UN resolution made after the Gulf War. As far as not being in synch with every country and being on our own. How many times as parents have we told our kids 'so what if everybody is doing it, that doesn't make it right.' Sometimes you have to take a stand for what is right even if that means standing alone. And quite frankly, when the UN appointed countries like Libya and China to the Human Rights Commission, they lost ANY credibility they still had with me. The UN is irrelevant. |
Hillbilly | Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 03:17 am     "I think it says more that those who say generally think that they won't win that battle... who says they won't?? Frankly I think that if Pakistan attacked they would lose. I think there is a verse in Revalations that says the same thing, been awhile since I read it though, so can't remember where it was..." Also, could you post the specific passage in Revelations you are referring to? I don't recall anything regarding this in Revelations and would be interested in reading it. Perhaps you are mistaken on this. |
Faerygdds | Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 11:08 am     Hill... did I not just post that I don't remember WHERE in revalations it talks about this... It has been years since my last Theology class in Cath HS.. and I'm not dragging out my old bible to look for it. It doesn't say "Pakistan" but it talks about historical references when, you look at the map... the major players will be in Isreal, Pakistan.. and yep... Iraq... I doubt I'm mistaken as I loved Revalation growing up... used to read it as a bedtime story. If I feel like it I may look it up, but frankly I have other more pressing issues. Yes... Hitler tried to wipe the Jews off the planet... yes.. it was history, BUT that was many years ago... Now.. Isreal is outmanned by by their historical cousins, but they have them out gunned... point being... this war in the Middle East is an ancient land dispute. We are NOT going to be able to solve it. THey will have to solve it and according to Revalations (if you believe the prophets)... the war will come to pass and if I remember correctly... what is now Isreal will win. Hill... btw... the "exterminating the jews" card reference wasn't really made toward you anyway... it was made toward someone who basically slanted it to say that those who don't care about Isreal are anti-semetic. Frankly.. I don't care WHAT their religion is.. I just have no interest in fighting their centuries old land dispute... You see what happens when God tells you you are going to have a son and then you don't have faith and sleep with a concubine??? You create all kinds of problems... |
Hillbilly | Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 11:30 am     Faery...I didn't mean to get you so upset but I don't think there is any reference in Revelations dealing with 'Pakistan' either by name or in a historical reference sense. That is the reason I asked for the reference. I agree with Iraq (formerly Babylonia) as a major player in the end times but not Pakistan. Also, just because the Bible says they will survive and be here at the end doesn't mean we should allow them to be persecuted and slaughtered in the meantime. That just isn't right. I find your response unfortunate. I thought we were having an interesting discussion and I enjoy discussing things with you. All I asked for was the scripture you cited to support your argument. Perhaps you have Pakistan mixed up with Syria or Iran (formerly Persia). I find it interesting and quite frankly, unbelievable, that you used to read Revelations as a bedtime story growing up. The symbolism and prophecies are almost beyond most adults. |
Faerygdds | Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 11:56 am     Hill,... I know it's there.. I remember having to map the darned thing my Senior year... I also had to map Christ Journeys, etc... and the ONLY reason I rmeember it was because I have a photographic memory.. I may SUCK at Geography, but I remember the Revelation map vividly... Of course I also remember there is something in there about the fall of Babylon (Iraq). Jerusalem is also metioned in this one (again going from memory)... Jerusalem is kind of a border city... not sure if it belongs to Jordan or is part of the disputed West bank... But this is where I get all the "players... Bayblon is Iraq... The disputed West bank area is the conflict between the West Bank (just checked Encarta for a map...) bring us Isreal and... PALESTINE! DOH! I told you.. I suck at Geography... but I had the right area in my mind... just had the wrong P name connected with it... sorry... Now that I think of it.. why did I pull out Pakistan??? Hmm... just a P name I guess.. Anyway... Revelations prophecies the battle for Jerusalem and the fall of Babylon well.. Now... I may no longer be Christian, but I do believe in prophets and prophecies and have seen many thing sin Revelations coming to pass... I've been saying it for years... I don't want OUR kids anywhere NEAR Iraq right now... after all.. the fall of babylon is supposed to be blody, horrific, and the anihilation of the area is supossed to be total and devastating... nope.. don't want our soldiers down there for that! Do me a fave... since you probabably have much more access to a Bible than I do (mine's in a box somewhere in the pit we call a storage room)... look it up and refresh all of our memories... But the original point still stands.. this is a war that is inevitable (imo) and we should just stay the heck out! |
Faerygdds | Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 11:57 am     Oh and Hill... you didnt exactly make me mad, but I just KNEW I siad I didn't remember WHERE it was... and I just hate it when someone doesn't actually read the whole of what I say and make assumptions! |
Max | Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 12:05 pm     I'm going to jump in here because the whole thing about Revelations and what it does or doesn't say has come up and that's a pet peeve of mine. First of all, if you want to read the NIV translation of Revelations for yourself, go to the Bible Gateway website. You can choose another translation if you like, too. Second, the book of Revelation does not specify countries or times or even actual events. It recounts John's prophetic dream and the various symbolisms it uses can be interpreted in many ways (and have been over the years, including by the folks who have translated the original manuscript). The book has been very controversial in the Church since the beginning. Many argued that it should not be included in the Bible because of it's symbolic nature and the fact that it is so unclear as to what all those symbols represent. Third, Revelations says that 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel will be "sealed" by God and protected (chapter 7). Again, this is symbolism that people have interpreted in many different ways. If you want to take it literally, that's your choice, but remember, it only says 144,000 which in these times isn't very many people! If you choose to be a literalist, you need to be consistent with that choice. Being "from the tribe of Israel" doesn't necessarily mean the same as being Jewish or being from the country as we know it today of Israel. Finally, because of all the various translations and interpretations of Revelations, I equate it to the prophecies of Nostradamus: You can read all KINDS of things into both texts. It's like statistics. You can make them prove just about anything you like. Okay. Please resume discussion of the global and political ramifications of President Bush's approach to Iraq. I'll go back to my hole now.  |
Hillbilly | Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 12:15 pm     Sorry Faery...but I still have no clue as to what you're referring to. And besides, you're the one who cited Revelations to support your argument so shouldn't you be the one to find your own material. It's not my job as the discusser(this word also copyrighted by Hillbilly ) on the other side to support your argument. I did read your post where you said you don't remember but you piqued(is this the appropriate word?) my curiosity and that is why I was hoping you would find it anyway. <doesn't hurt to ask anyway, does it?> By the way, Palestine makes much more sense than Pakistan. I was trying to figure out why Pakistan would be involved! Of course, Palestine is a British invention from their take over of the area from the Ottoman Turks, I believe. The area of today's Palestine is what used to be called Canaan (the land of the Canaanites). |
Hillbilly | Thursday, September 26, 2002 - 12:26 pm     Yes, Max...the book of Revelations is interpreted different ways by different people. That's why I was asking Faery for HER interpretation. It doesn't matter if she interprets it differently than I do. I basically just want to see what she thinks. It's just a nice, interesting discussion we're having here. We're just having fun..no need for anyone to get uptight about this. |
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