Archive through September 21, 2002
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TV ClubHouse: Archive: Child Abuse Case in Indiana Caught on Tape: Archive through September 21, 2002

Gentoo

Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 01:01 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Not cool. But why's it front page world news?

Whit4you

Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 01:31 am EditMoveDeleteIP
What bothers me about it is the way she USED the leverage of the truck to beat the girl.. honestly I don't know why it bothers me... but it really bothers me the way she couldnt hit her child hard enough on her own but had to use the leverage of her vehicle to do so... it boethers me that this matters to me but it does...

I dunno - I guess I'm saying a women hitting a child in the head over and over and over is bad enough but ..using that vehicle to stablize herself so she could hit harder is beyond sick in the head.

Bohawkins

Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 02:04 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Anyone who received a severe beating like has been described here would suffer serious damage that would not be gone in a week. I would like to wait for any judgement until the evidence is clear. A video from that distance and that angle is not sufficient for us to come to a conclusion.

If, in fact, the attorney (Rocket Rosen) is correct, and a physician has examined the child and found no evidence of abrasions or bruises, then these preliminary conclusions about the severity are invalid.

Bruises take weeks to go away. A scratch or cut will take 21 days to heal.

I personally am opposed to even spanking children. I raised two sons without even a spat. However, if the laws in Indiana permit corporal punishment by a parent, then this case needs to be examined under the bounds of those laws.

Campaign to change the laws which permit parents to spank or slap a child if this bothers you. It is a cultural quirk, but slapping and spanking children is permitted and encouraged all over the country.

Whit4you

Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 02:17 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I taught my son and I taught my son and I taughty my son ( over protect mome..okkkkkkkkkk kkkkk??)

to look both ways then both ways.. before ever TOUCHING the street..not halfway across the f'n street as some parents seem to teach... and THEN after checking both ways twice before entering the stree to glance both ways to half way.. and THEN ... look both ways again...

OK?

The worst spanking my son ever recieved I'd be PROUD to be played on national tv...cause it was above and beyond any teaching I could do on this walking across the street thingy... after the first few times he 'forgot' to look both ways.. I didn't want him dead... and I wanted him to remember.. that no matter WHAT you will look both ways or you wont' sit for a few weeks....lol.

Look I'm NOT against so called 'corporal' punishment .. I'm agaisnt the sosciety that's raising our children to know THEY ARE THE BOSS ..

but for anyone to suggest this little 4 year old child had any say... before or after she was strapped in...before or after her mom started using the leverage of the truck..WATCH THE VIDEO this lady was using leverage to get more forceful blows that's truely sick

my son's worst 'spanking' was to save his life .. not to attempt to end it.

This gal needs an attempted murder charge cause with those blows with those jerks to the little girls neck ..she coulda killed the little girl.

Bohawkins

Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 02:25 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Let's just wait for the evidence before we convict.

There is no way any injury to the child can be masked. If no abrasions or bruises are present then the mother should not be charged.

I don't like any spanking, but even a slap to the face by a parent or legal guardian is permitted in most jurisdictions in America.

Hippyt

Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 07:17 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I don't know where in the country slapping a child is encouraged!!! And Bohawkins to be frank if watching this video doesn't bother you,well,nevermind........

Hillbilly

Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 07:19 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Hippy...the sad part is...that this mother herself was probably abused by her own folks in this manner and the cycle is just repeating itself.

I'm not against spanking a child if its the only way they will remember something as in Whit's case. Better a sore bum than smashed flat on the road somewhere.

But...I don't think a child or anyone should ever be hit in the face. Even adults know this is a humiliation tactic. And for a small child, it is very dangerous.

I do spank and was spanked when the occasion called for it. But it is a measured response after time of the offense has passed. It is short in duration (I think I've only done three whaps at the most) and it wasn't hard enough to send them flying across the room. <plus...my little gals have me wrapped around their little fingers and it is very hard for me to spank them>

I believe that if you do spank a child for a misdeed, you need to wait a sufficient amount of time so it is not done in anger.

Car54

Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 07:25 am EditMoveDeleteIP
The mother's attorney was on the morning TV shows. According to him (he has only talked to his client over the phone..never met her), the little girl has been seen and is not injured, and the mother is going to turn herself in today. He says his client is remorseful.

The interviewer said they could not interview WHO had evaluated the little girl, or where the mother and child were.

Karuuna

Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 07:57 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Hitting a child with a closed fist is already illegal in every state of the United States. Period. It's called assault... not spanking.

Cillysue

Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 08:01 am EditMoveDeleteIP
If, after watching the tape of that monster who appears to be the one who gave birth to that sweet darling little girl, doesn't make you so mad you want to kill, there is something wrong with you. The fact that it brings out such strong emotions in us is the first sign that this so called mothers behavior was not right, normal or anything close to being called discipline. I will be very happy when they finally capture her and rescue that little girl. If anyone EVER did something like that to my grandson, OMG, I imagine they would have to put me in jail. But when she is finally sentenced and goes to jail, she will truly be punished. Prisoners DO NOT LIKE CHILD ABUSERS!!!! God Bless that little girl, because she will not want to be seperated from her mother.

Bohawkins

Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 08:35 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I am for ending all corporal punishment for children. Unfortunately, it is still legal for parents to strike their children. Hitting with a closed fist would, most likely, be considered unreasonable force in most states, although the specific prohibition of a "closed fist" is not defined in the laws of states I have reviewed. The language is generally like this: "a parent has the right to reasonably discipline a child by physical punishment and may administer reasonable punishment without being liable for battery." The reasonability is almost always determined ex post facto by the examination of the condition of the child by an expert third party witness.

I would like to see these laws stiffened, and made more specific, outlawing any kind of corporal punishment of a child. Currently, parents have wide latitude under the laws concerning impunity from battery accusations.

I am also for defending the legal rights of the accused. I do not want a posse type of law in this country, with kangaroo court justice, brought on by a media frenzy. The video tape does not show enough to convict without seeing whether the child was actually struck (the mother could have been striking the headrest), and if the child suffered any injury. Abrasions and bruises don't heal quickly.

The problem with a video tape is the angle. If you look at a tv show or a movie you will see fight scenes where the actors are being beaten up with obvious blows to the head and body. All the abuse is captured on film and video. However, if you are on the scene, or you see an "out takes" video from another angle, you will see that the "blows" actually are not striking the actors at all, or that they were "pulled" at the moment of impact doing no damage.

We cannot convict someone on a video shot from a distance at one camera angle. We must examine the child to see if any real injury has occurred.

Hippyt

Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 09:44 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I'm sure the woman will get fair treatment,we here at TVCH aren't her jury. Her lawyer is very expensive.Personally,I say she needs to have the cr*p beaten out of her.I don't give a rat's a** about the angle of the camera. The woman has no self control,and even if she didn't leave a mark,what I saw was abuse,physical AND mental.

Bohawkins

Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 10:08 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Her attorney, Rocket Rosen, is well known and quite competent. I would imagine that he has taken the case pro bono. He has a history of being involved in some high profile pro bono cases like the Waco Branch Davidian trial, and he was also the pro bono attorney for Kerry Max Cook who was freed after being on death row for 17 years.

He is a man who fights for justice and the rights of the accused.

Incidently, he is the son of the former mayor of Miami Beach, Florida.

Karuuna

Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 11:24 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Bo - using a closed fist to strike a child, and striking a child in the face are found not only in state statutes of child abuse; but are also used in practical determinations by Child Protective Service agencies. It is a very common test for case workers to use in evaluating appropriate and inappropriate discipline, as well as the number of strikes, amount of bruising and whether bleeding was caused. Case reports of incidents specifically state whether the child was struck with an open or closed hand, and the location of the blows because such details are used in legal evaluations of what charges can be filed.

Child abuse laws in *every* state that one cannot cause "physical OR emotional injury" to a child. To watch that video, and that woman throw her child around, beat her while she is lying on the seat, grab her and shake her by her pony tail, and then slam her fist into the child repeatedly, it's clear to me that both physical and emotional harm were caused. While an examination of the child is necessary, it is clear from the video itself that this would not fall under "reasonable corporal punishment" as defined by Indiana state law.

In fact, that the charges filed were not even "abuse", but were "assault" speaks volumes about the legal view of this case under Indiana law.

Jmm

Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 12:38 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Ok, let's just for a minute assume that Bohawkins is right and the mother was just hitting the headrest instead of the child.... wake up folks it is still "battery" just the emotional kind, and in my experience the emotional battery can cause a lot more severe scaring than the physical type.
JMHO

Bohawkins

Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 12:56 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Karuuna... of course, I realize that third party expert witnesses can attest to excessive or unreasonable practices of corporal punishment. I stated that in a previous post. The wording which I have seen in the state codes (although I have not seen them all) does not specifically mention "closed fist." I would be interested in your references.

My own opinion (not as an expert in child abuse cases) is that if a parent were punishing with a closed fist, almost certain damage to the child would occur. That damage would be apparent in injuries, which could be documented. Therefore, specfic statements in the code prohibiting use of a "closed fist" would not be necessary. Incidently, a hit from flat hand can kill a child, so how the child is hit is not as material as what injury, if any, resulted.

I don't believe that you can adequately determine child abuse from a fifteen second video. Some other corroboration is required. Determination of emotional harm would also need some study of the child over several sessions with a trained child psychologist or other mental health professional.

I would imagine if you saw the videos of thousands of children receiving spankings and punishment, which is well within the law in homes and schools (in many states) you would be made quite ill. Parents and teachers scream at children while spanking them. They legally use switches, whips, belts and paddles (as well as their hands). Combine the parents arms flailing with their raised angry voices and the children's cries and you have a very unsavory picture. However, such actions are not only not considered abuse, but are legal and even encouraged by certain parts of our culture including religious groups.

Change the laws if you wish, but don't deny any parent the rights to punish their children within the bounds of the law. Every accused person has the right to counsel. The Sixth Amendment to the United States Constitution states: "In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right . . . to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence."

I am only providing a view of logic which could be utilized in assuring that this person is not charged and convicted unjustly.

Mystery

Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 01:01 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
There isn't a crime of emotional battery. Battery requires physical contact with the victim. A threat, or an action that makes someone believe they're about to be hit, but without actual contact, would be assault.

Bohawkins

Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 01:15 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I have found that in a few jurisdictions (Washington state and Delaware, seem to be the only ones) new laws are now in place which say that any punishment that involves hitting with a closed fist or an instrument, kicking, inflicting burns, or throwing the child is considered child abuse regardless of the severity of the injury sustained.

This is indeed an improvement in the code, and anyone proven to be in violation of such a code should be punished.

Other jurisdictions still have the requirement of determination of the presence of injury, and while we, on an emotional level, would like to see those people punished as well, they must be defended within the bounds of the law which applies to them.

Incidently, INDIANA Law does not limit right of parent/guardian/custodian to use reasonable corporal punishment when disciplining a child. Sec. 31-34-1-15.[Ci.]

Twiggyish

Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 01:30 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
If a teacher ever used any of those things on my child, I'd have them fired and put in jail.

Bohawkins

Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 01:43 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Twiggyish... that would depend on what state you live in. 27 states prohibit corporal punishment in the schools, but 23 permit it. Your profile says you live in Florida, which permits it, so I think you would just be "whistling Dixie."

Every industrialized country in the world now prohibits school corporal punishment, except the U.S., Canada and one state in Australia.

These are the states which allow corporal punishment and the number of cases in each state in the year 2000.

Alabama 45,610
Arizona 346
Arkansas 40,811
Colorado 0
Delaware 95
Florida 12,850
Georgia 27,559
Idaho 17
Indiana 2,482
Kansas 20
Kentucky 2,584
Louisiana 19,986
Mississippi 49,859
Missouri 9,717
New Mexico 2,935
North Carolina 7,080
Ohio 903
Oklahoma 18,581
Pennsylvania 90
South Carolina 5
Tennessee 36,477
Texas 81,373
Wyoming 56

Hillbilly

Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 01:46 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Bo...could ya please provide yourn sources?!

Karuuna

Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 01:47 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Bo - Arkansas, Minnesota and Colorado also specifically prohibit the use of a "closed fist" or "striking in the face" as a matter of law. However, I will again note that regardless of the legal description these terms are routinely assessed by Child Protective Services in deciding the severity of abuse in a particular case and therefore the proper protocol in handling that case.

In terms of the Indiana case I have to believe that anyone seeing that video would call the mother's behavior outside the bounds of "reasonable corporable punishment." And, she's not been charged under Indiana child abuse law anyway -- she's been charged with "felony battery".

Frankly, Bo, your stance puzzles me... and it might behoove you to visit some child welfare websites -- this woman would be determined in need of intervention by Child Protective Services using the existing federal standard and almost all state standards, simply by virtue of that one incident captured on video.

The end of child abuse will not be brought about by more strigent law... it will be brought about by early intervention, parent education and community assistance before the abuse rises to the level of legal repercussions. Already 15 states have enacted legislation and community level programming with prevention in mind. The model programs were developed in Iowa and Missouri, the best supported and most successful program is Arizona's Family Builders program.

Karuuna

Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 01:49 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
And by the way, Bo, since I worked as a children's counselor in a safehouse for 5 years, I've seen more than you can possibly imagine in terms of what parents can do to their children.

Rig

Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 01:57 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Karuuna, what is the best way for an ordinary citizen to work toward getting a program like the Arizona Family Builders program going in other states?

Bohawkins

Saturday, September 21, 2002 - 02:26 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Yes, Arkansas is the third one, but not others unless it is legislation which just passed (and not in my database). It is a far cry from "every" state as you stated in your original post. (My sources cited are the state codes: ci means civil, cr means criminal).

Colorado - Any investigation of child abuse shall take into account the child-rearing practices of the child's culture. Child abuse and neglect does not include acts which can be reasonably construed to be a reasonable exercise of parental discipline. Sec. 19-3-303(l).[Ci.] A continued pattern of conduct which results in cruel punishment or accumulation of injury which results in death or serious bodily injury is child abuse. Sec. 18-6-401.[Cr.] Parent/guardian/ person with care and supervision of minor can use reasonable and appropriate physical force, if it is reasonably necessary and appropriate to maintain or promote welfare of child. Sec. 18-1-703.[Cr.]

Minnesota - Parent/legal guardian/caretaker who intentionally uses unreasonable force or cruel discipline that is excessive under the circumstances is guilty of malicious punishment. Sec. 609.377.[Cr.] Parent/legal guardian/teacher/caretaker of child or pupil can use reasonable force to restrain or correct a child or pupil. Sec. 609.379.[Cr.]


Karuuna - evidently you are not reading my posts. I do not defend or advocate child abuse. I don't even advocate corporal punishment. I am only interested in defending citizens from being unjustly accused and convicted of any crime based on the emotional outrage of suspect evidence. Above all, the law is paramount. I am sworn to defend it, even if that means allowing people to go unpunished when I think they deserve more than the law permits.