Archive through July 01, 2002
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TV ClubHouse: Archive: Pledge of Allegiance Declared Unconstitutional: Archive through July 01, 2002

Faerygdds

Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 11:40 am EditMoveDeleteIP
oh man... wcv... I wish I knew how to do that little rolling and giggling icon... Because that had me ROFLMAO!

Thanks... you guys are the best... maybe I am a little ambitious....

And yeah.. I realize the whole wall thing... I just don't want her to do it again... BUT I don't like lying to her... double edged sword... hey... anyone for sushi??? :)

My heart feels better now and it really is thanks to all of you... as usual, I know that I'll have to been the one to compromise and change. I don't mean that badly, but I know that I am simply more mutable than she is.

Oh... and also... don't get me wrong.. I may be upset about what happened last night, but she is still one of the greatest people I know... warts and all! And she was the BEST Mom... now if I can just learn that patience thing....

Faerygdds

Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 11:42 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I'll be back later on... my hubby is taking me to Marble Slab Creamery for ice cream -- YAY!!! COMFORT FOOD....


yeah... like my BUTT needs that right now! lol

Oregonfire

Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 12:56 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I don't have much more to add, because everyone above said such wonderful things!

Mother/daughter relationships are hugely complex. I don't think we ever really forget the womb, and so always unrealistically expect comfort instead of strife in our relations. Our mothers also see themselves reflected in us, for better or for worse.

Faery, have you ever read Joseph Campbell? I'm sure you have. Anyway, I find his observations about religion to be very enlightened, and maybe almost comforting. I think that religion is a very personalized thing, that no two people are ever going to have the exact same view on things.

Tess

Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 01:00 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Faery, I've pretty much stayed out of this conversation because others were already stating similar views to mine and doing it very, very well. But your post above about your conversation with your mom touched me.

My mother tried out several different Christian variations in her teen years and finally decided when she was 17 to convert to Catholocism. We kids always joked that she picked being Catholic because they had the hardest rules to follow. My father was never baptised into any religion although he did believe in the Christian version of God. We kids went to Catholic schools back in the 60's and early 70's, attended church every Sunday and I sang in the choir. You know the drill. When I was 19 I was engaged to a guy who happened to be a Lutheran and mom had a cow. We didn't get married (not because of religion, though). Sometimes I still wonder how big that cow would have been if we had actually gotten married. Four years later my sister married a Jewish man and the world did not come to a screeching halt. Go figure. :)

Now, many years later as I approach my 50's I am the only remaining practicing Catholic in our family. Even mom doesn't do the church thing anymore. Dad died in 1999. My sister is a scientist and says, "As a scientist, I cannot accept the existence of God. Science explains everything." My husband is also a scientist. He says, "As a scientist I cannot help but believe there IS a God." Two of the 3 people I love more than life have diametrically opposed belief systems. How does one reconcile that?

The answer for me has always been easy. I know what I believe and I hope I live it every day through my words, my actions and the example I set for my child and others. My sister and my husband, although they believe opposite things are both very moral, honest, caring, loving and compassionate individuals. What they believe with regards to God or the way the universe works is irrelevant to me. How they live their daily lives and how they treat others matters very much. I have no need or desire to ever convert others to what I think because I'm secure in the knowledge that while it works for me, it doesn't for everyone.

I, too, was a very curious child. I wanted to know everything about all religions and cultures. That always sent my mother into a tailspin, frantic that I would abandon the religion she chose for me. She didn't have the faith she needed to let me explore. I explored anyway and ultimately came full circle because it works for me. My hope is that as my young daughter grows I will have the strenghth to let her explore as I did and as you did but without recriminations or fear. If she has been raised well, she will do what is right for her. You are doing what is right for you. I sincerely hope that your mom can come to that realization at some point.

I truly believe she does love you but is frightened of what she doesn't understand. That is never an excuse for bad behavior but now that I'm a mom, I can tell you that we don't always appear rational to the outside world when it comes to our children. I'll be thinking good thoughts for both of you. Hang in there.

Faerygdds

Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 01:36 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Well... I'm back from the creamery.. I have half a waffle cone in the freezer...

Oregon: I have the Pawer of Myth DVD set sitting on my shelf right now. Want to come over and watch it??? :)

Tess: I guess I always knew the world is very black and white to her... good or bad... And like I said... sometimes she says things and I'm like, "Where the heck did she even GET that from?" I swear she draws some of the WILDEST conclusions. Usually I can sit back and laugh, but wow.. last night it just hit me like a thunderbolt...

I see my Mom and I as 2 parts of the same tree... I am the leaves/branches... bendable, blowing in the wind and just accepting whatever comes my way and occasionally dodging a strange bird that is flying toward me out of control...

Mom... she is the trunk of the tree... unyeilding and unable to see the branches and leaves.

Of course, what do I expect??? This is the same woman that I actually scolded for saying, "I like gay people, I just wish they would have stayed in the closet!" (This was a recent conversation too!)

Funny... I used to think of Mom as a M'Lynn from Steel Magnolias... when the heck did she turn in Ouiser???

Wink

Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 02:27 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Faery as the mom of three "20-something" young adults I can tell you that there have been more than a few heated discussions in our home about religion, sexuality and stereotypes. I have to tell you as a mom that there have been many days those rose-coloured glasses provide a big fat comfort zone. Trust me on this one. When you become a mother you're gonna want a pair.

You are a bright, articulate young woman and I am confident your mother is extremely proud of you. You may think the tree trunk is unyielding but look at what a wonderful job it has done making those branches strong enough to withstand many storms. That trunk may not have a "clear" view but part of the reason is because it has simply forgotten what is was like to be young and growing. Or it has remembered and it is fearful.

Faerygdds

Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 03:08 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Wink... First of all... I won't ever get to have children... medically impossible. So I will never know. :(

But on the second note. I tell her that all the time. It's funny... she is always going off on what a terrible Mom she was, which is her way of getting me to validate her. I finally told her to stop because everytime she says she was a terrible Mother, she insults the product -- me. That worked for a while. She still does it... and I still validate the job she did. She really does run off of fear. It's what makes her tick. Always has.

Mom's biggest problem is that she never learned who SHE was. She hides behind selective memories, selective religion, selective reality so she doesn't have to face what she's really afraid of -- and that's who she really is. I know WHY she is like that. We've discussed it. (it's her business, so nuff said) She tells me I am the wisest person she knows and calls me for advice constantly. And the family joke is my Father has no conscious -- and I am his Jimminy Cricket.(sp)

I can remember when she thought her house was haunted. (personally, I thought it was too, but I wasn't going to tell HER that!) She asked what I would do. I said, "I could tell you what I would do, but wouldn't you rather I tell you what YOU should do? " She wanted an explanation for THAT comment.. I told her *I* would light a candle, smudge the house and do a blessing. Then I told her SHE should call a priest and have the house blessed. :)

FYI all... I JUST figured out why it bothered me so much... I watched the movie Vanilla Sky for the first time yesterday before we talked last night. Great movie btw... I loved it! I think I was just taking things personally after being so reflective all day long.

Wink

Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 03:38 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Faery please accept my apology for my "foot in mouth" remark.

Merlin

Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 04:25 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
What a great discussion..........I love this place.

Grooch

Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 05:22 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Wink, that is beautiful advice.

Magikearth

Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 05:55 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Faerygdds,
I'm a little late to this discussion because I just got back from attending a co-worker's wedding. I read your post and all of the wonderful responses from the many enlightened people who posted above.

I agree with Wink-you are a very bright and well-spoken,intelligent soul who has a gift for educating people in such a considerate,non-judgemental way.I wish I had some words of wisdom but I am keeping you in my thoughts,okay? ((Comforting,healing thoughts are being sent your way,Faerygdds)))

I wish too,that people can rise above each others differences,such as Religious Beliefs,(although I prefer the word Spirituality),Gender Preferences,Political Affiliations,etc. Just know that your Mom loves you and you are very worthy person,deserving of every kind word that has been said to you! :) <Magikearth is a very wordy person,huh?> LOL

Just as a side note,if I ever start a rock band,can I use "Cosmic Tangos Of Truth" for the name? I LOVE IT!! Yes,I will give you the credit should I ever become a smash success!

Faerygdds

Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 09:52 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Magick... you have my permission to use Cosmic Tangos of Truth.

I just woke up... seems I passed out for a while.

My husband used to wonder why I spent so much time at a message board that dealt with TV (I've been coming here since Season 1 of BB). I told him last night when I was in hysterics that I was going to take my feelings to "the board". He was SO wary. He feared what you all would say and I was in such bad shape... then today I started reading him the responses. Now he KNOWS why I spend so much time here!

{{{{{{{{{{Hugs to all}}}}}}}}}}}

Thanks guys... btw... I talked to Mom just before I passed out. I got to scold her for trying to make Dad sick during his dinner. She is SO bad sometimes!!! I won't give details, I'll just say she works for a podiatrist. I was scolding her and saying, "You are so cruel... my poor Dad..." and she was doing her famous "Serial Mom" (that's my nickname for her) giggle. She says she just getting even for all the pranks he played on us growing up. I asked to talk to Dad, relayed that tiny bit of info and he said, "What should I do?" I said, "Hide the knives and be very very nice to her -- you did a LOT of pranks in my life you know!" Anyway... we were all laughing. :)

Yep... my family is nuts!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Faerygdds

Saturday, June 29, 2002 - 09:56 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Oh and wink... np... I've learned to accept that fact that I can't have kids. It's just a natural assumption... I've always been a very maternal person! My whole life I have been told what a great Mom I would be. Guess not huh???

Besides,.... patience is my life lesson -- not sure I would survive kids! Wait... no... not sure THEY would survive... lol :)

Magikearth

Sunday, June 30, 2002 - 10:41 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I don't know if there IS such a thing as a "normal family.." I still don't know the definition of that word! :) It sounds as though there's alot of fun and laughs in your family,along with the differences.I know it sounds cliched,but sometimes,we just gotta focus on the good,if we can.Its alot more easier said than done,for sure!

I've always had to defend my jobs to so many relatives-"Why am I *just* a 'Substitute Teacher' instead of a 'Real Teacher'...Why am I *just* a counselor for teenagers in a clinic,(which only requires a two-year degree) instead of going on to bigger and better things,so I could make more $$$...?"For me,its simple because I never really cared all that much about the whole money thing,anyway.There are waaaaaay more important things in life than that,IMO- but I digress!(Such as the case in these Spirited discussions!
<Magikearth loves the word Spirit>

BTW-I wasn't really serious(well,..) about starting a band but if I did,Cosmic Tangos Of Truth would be a perfect name!

Squaredsc

Sunday, June 30, 2002 - 03:20 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
hi magik, are you from delaware? we aren't, though my father works in dover now, he's been there about 5 years, i think. anyhoo, the kids are back, and i just asked my oldest son if they "had" to say the pledge, and he said yes, unless you are a jehova's witness. interesting....

Max

Sunday, June 30, 2002 - 05:01 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Gee, I go away for a weekend and the place goes wild! :)

I'm terribly late to the conversation, but did want to add my $.02 worth (borrowed from Flint, of course).

Somewhere online (can't remember where now), there's a test you can take that returns a list of major world religions and how likely you are to be in line with their beliefs. My pastor, several of my close friends from church, and I all came in with Neo-Pagan at the top of the list. Methodist (which we are) was in the top 5. I don't remember what the others were.

When you talk about the collective unconsciousness and your concept of multiple Gods as being a part of each of us, I can completely relate. I simply put my Methodist background over the concepts to describe everything. It works for me because that's the labeling I grew up with.

To me, the concept of the Holy Spirit is a piece of God that is in each and every one of us. It's that collective unconsciousness you spoke of. We are all tied to each other through the Spirit and to those we have known and loved throughout time. Some Christians speak of waiting for the second coming of Jesus. I think he's been with us all along. That, to me, is what the imbuing of the Holy Spirit was. An awakening to the fact that God is in each and every one of us. It's that still small voice inside. However an individual tunes into that spirtuality, it's all good.

As you can probably imagine, there are many churches who would not welcome me with open arms if they knew the extent of my full beliefs. :) That's cool. It's just their journey. Everyone is here on earth, in these vessels we call bodies, to experience and learn. When we leave this mortal existence, I believe we will have our spirtual eyes opened to reflect upon what we've learned in this journey and in others that have come before it. Then we will have opportunities to learn and experience new things. Some may be on this plane of existence, some not.

Some people talk of Heaven and Hell and absolute places. To me, they are both with us all the time. What you choose to make of your life, how you choose to react to experiences, how you treat others, what you choose to appreciate versus ignore, all those combine to make your experiences on this earth Heavenly or Hellish. Sometimes there are things that happen to us that are beyond our control, but it's still how we react to them and build from them that colors our experience of them. The book of Job is a good reflection of that.

I've rambled on. I guess the point is that I totally understand where you are coming from. I agree with others who have said that your mother's reaction and the negative reactions of others to your beliefs is one of fear based in ignorance. Both are powerful negative forces.

Magikearth

Sunday, June 30, 2002 - 05:03 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Hi Squaredsc! Yep,I'm from Delaware! Today would have been a perfect day for the beach(or the shore,if you're from New Jersey :) )

Faerygdds

Sunday, June 30, 2002 - 07:49 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Wow.... Max...

I was reading your post and SCREAMING at my mointor...

YES! Someone gets it!!! I have friends that I have had since HS that have no clue that I'm Pagan. They all think I'm Christian... not because I say anything, but because of my actions. I wish I had that website... And can I borrow some of your post??? You were able to explain some concepts that I have trouble explaining to others.

Funny Story... My husband worked with a man named Mr. Hankey (I'm not kidding - and yes I would ask him how the Christmas Poo was doing). Mr Hankey was an ex-minister who wanted to "save" teenagers. He wanted to to this through fear tactics and coersion. My husband, of course, refused to help him. We kept telling him, "You can't fight the Devil with the Devil's tools... you can't fight hate with hate... you have to fight it with love and understanding." Now you would think a minister would get this, right? OH NO!!! He was one of those "I'll get them any way I can" people. Well... For a year and a half, the Christmas Poo thought my husband was Christian... until that Celtic pentacle fell out of his shirt one day... I would still pay good money to have seen the look on his face... (I did not care for Mr Hankey... had nothing to do with his religion and EVERYTHING to do with his tactics...)

Funny... some Pagans I know are better "Christians" than some Christians I know... ironic huh? I may not believe in everything in the Bible... I mean , really... you will never convice me that Jonah survived whale stomach acid for 3 days and came out unscathed... but I do believe in it's OVERALL message to us - just be nice to each other. :)

But I mean that though -- the whole.. "you can't fight the Devil with the Devil's tools" thing. I live by it!

Max

Sunday, June 30, 2002 - 08:30 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Now I know what woke me from my nap!

I found the test. It's on SpeakOut, which is a great resource site for a variety of things. Anyway, presenting (drum roll, please), the Relligion Selector. Enjoy

Of course you can quote me to whomever you like.
It's not really me you're quoting, just a summation of some universal truths (as I interpret them :)).

Oh, and if you have a good sense of humor about religious institutions in general, check out Betty Bowers is a better Christian than you. It's total satire and, IMHO, hilarious. :) Be sure to look in the latest news section for Betty's take on this thread's issue, entitled "Did You Wake Up "Under God" This Morning?"

Faerygdds

Sunday, June 30, 2002 - 09:40 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
<<"Did You Wake Up "Under God" This Morning?" >>

Oh... I don't think I want to go there... for some reason that little devil made me interpret this question in a way that is just -- WRONG!!! lol

Riviere

Sunday, June 30, 2002 - 10:45 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
This case has really given me some laughs.. When the plumber came over I said, well, if I show you the money printed with "in god we trust" would you take my word that I have it, just not enough cash today? He laughed and said he'd just take plastic, the American way!!! It IS stupid to get folks stirred up over some prejudicial allegiance revision of the 1950s, but it makes it no less unconstitutional IMHO.. Laws are laws and religion is religion, church and state matters diverge from our founders' outlooks. Say if I believe in Tooth Fairy and must per dogma wear a gossimer veil, can I sue a state that won't give me a driver's license? Say if I worship a Satan who commands me to kill, wouldn't being arrested violate my civil rights to free worship? There has to be law and order and public safety. And preferably without the stamp of the word 'god' anywhere. I've studied and rejected many of the religions you all post of, but defend your right to freely practice them, and agree with all in so many ways.. But this is about constitutional issues and not letting anyone's religious beliefs run amok dictating what AMERICA is. Isn't it???

Oregonfire

Sunday, June 30, 2002 - 11:35 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Hey Max! I took that test (link needs to be updated), and top of the list was Neo-Pagan too!

In case anybody cares, this is how the list turned out. I think I should start my own church based on my results: The Universal Church of Whatever.

1. Neo-Pagan (100%)
2. Unitarian Universalism (95%)
3. Mahayana Buddhism (92%)
4. New Age (92%)
5. Theravada Buddhism (87%)
6. Liberal Quakers (80%)
7. Hinduism (70%)
8. Taoism (69%)
9. New Thought (67%)
10. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (66%)
11. Secular Humanism (61%)
12. Scientology (58%)
13. Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (52%)
14. Jainism (51%)
15. Nontheist (47%)
16. Reform Judaism (47%)
17. Orthodox Quaker (42%)
18. Sikhism (42%)
19. Bahá'í Faith (33%)
20. Seventh Day Adventist (28%)
21. Orthodox Judaism (21%)
22. Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (19%)
23. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (18%)
24. Islam (12%)
25. Jehovah's Witness (9%)
26. Eastern Orthodox (7%)
27. Roman Catholic (7%)

Wcv63

Monday, July 01, 2002 - 02:40 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I took the test and I turned out to be a Liberal Quaker although by looking at the numbers I seem to identify in high percentages with almost all 27 attributed to the results for my answers. Hmmmm. I don't remember answering a single question about aliens or cults so I have no idea how Scientology snuck in there.

1. Liberal Quakers (100%)
2. Unitarian Universalism (97%)
3. Reform Judaism (96%)
4. Neo-Pagan (93%)
5. New Age (88%
6. Mainline to Liberal Christian Protestants (85%)
7. Mahayana Buddhism (78%)
8. Sikhism (73%)
9. Bahá'í Faith (72%)
10. Orthodox Judaism (70%)
11. New Thought (68%)
12. Orthodox Quaker (67%)
13. Jainism (65%)
14. Scientology (63%)
15. Islam (63%)
16. Theravada Buddhism (61%)
17. Hinduism (58%)
18. Secular Humanism (52%)
19. Taoism (49%)
20. Mainline to Conservative Christian/Protestant (44%)
21. Christian Science (Church of Christ, Scientist) (44%)
22. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) (43%)
23. Seventh Day Adventist (41%)
24. Eastern Orthodox (36%)
25. Roman Catholic (36%)
26. Jehovah's Witness (32%)
27. Nontheist (30%)

Faerygdds

Monday, July 01, 2002 - 03:13 am EditMoveDeleteIP
The funny thing about when I took mine... My top 4 were...

Neo-Pagan (100)
New Age (88)
Hindu(80)
Mahayana Buddhism (80)

and Roman Catholic was NOWHERE on the list... I even looked for it. Scientology was on mine too... right around number 15... I too was a bit puzzled...

Wcv63

Monday, July 01, 2002 - 05:04 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Oh and another thing, I can assure EVERYONE that I would never be knocking on their doors handing out Watch Tower publications and asking to talk to them about religion.