Archive through July 29, 2002
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TV ClubHouse: archives: Where Are All The Educated Bachelors?: Archive through July 29, 2002

Lostinthefog

Thursday, July 18, 2002 - 10:31 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Okay, I got this off ABC.com...it is very long but very interesting...and I do mean interesting. If you are a single person of either gender it is fascinating.

Where Are All the Educated Bachelors?

Sure, it's the 21st century and all, but many single, professional women of a certain age still sweat over the lethal mix of a dearth of educated, successful bachelors and the cruel march of Father Time.

Believe it or not, ladies, the situation appears to be getting bleaker.

Women now comprise 57 percent of all college graduates in the United States. Among Hispanics, the gender gap is even greater — only 40 percent of college graduates are male. Among blacks, two women earn bachelor's degrees for every man.

Some demographers and labor studies experts fear this trend portends ominously for the mating game. American men are becoming less literate, less ambitious, less responsible, and less employable than women, they say. This can only mean bad things, the argument goes, for high-achieving women who want husbands who, say, contribute to society, hold their own in conversation and pay their own way.

Andrew Sum, an economist with the Center for Labor Market Studies at Northeastern University, calls this effect the "marriage squeeze."

"The choices for younger women will be more constrained than they were 20 years ago," he said. "This is a serious economic and cultural problem. Men are less mature today then they were 20 years ago. Not everyone will agree with me, but the evidence supports that."

Women Mature Faster

Sum's research shows that an average of 62 percent of women in Massachusetts' large central and inner cities graduate from high school and enroll in college, compared to 48 percent of men. His data also reflect the education gender gap's impact on marriage, he said. An estimated 59 percent of men with only high school diplomas were married compared to 75 percent of men with Master's degrees or better, Sum said.

Nationwide during the last two decades, women have increasingly earned greater numbers of associate's, bachelor's, and master's degrees than men. There is no state in America where men can claim more bachelor's degrees than women.

Explanations abound for why women are more likely to enroll in and graduate from college. Educators say that in general, women are more prepared as students, more mature, better writers and readers, and more ambitious.

"Women may feel they have to try harder," said Stephanie Coontz, a family researcher and co-chair of the Council on Contemporary Families.

Indeed, there has been much public debate recently about the plight of successful women looking for mates and families. Perhaps most notably, Sylvia Ann Hewlett raised a ruckus with her book Creating a Life about professional women's often quixotic quest for children, which made 60 Minutes and the cover of Time magazine.

Must Women Go Slummin'?

The academic gender gap shows no sign of abating, which means women may have to start waiting even longer to marry, or they may have to consider "marrying down."

Traditionally, men have been more likely to marry women with less earning potential and professional stature, although that trend is shifting. Women have been more likely to pair up with partners who have at least as much academic achievement — 80 percent of women with bachelor's degrees marry men who also graduated from college.

Not all experts see trouble ahead, of course. Many see the trend as a reassuring development for women, and for men, eager to break out of traditional marriage roles.

Kathleen Gerson, a New York University sociologist studying work and family attitudes of the 18-to-30 crowd, pooh-poohs the notion that less educated men herald the apocalypse for heterosexual couples.

"When men outnumbered women [in college], it didn't seem like a social crisis," she said.

If women are less dependent on men for financial support, couples can make more honest decisions about being together, says Coontz, who's writing a book on the history of marriage.

"It's not a sign of disaster, but a sign that people are able to develop more true free choice and are willing to do so," she said. "This is a good example of the fact that marriage is more of a choice than it's ever been."

Put less delicately, the concept of the marriage squeeze is a lot of "hooha" about nothing, says Carl E. Van Horn, a professor of public policy and director of the John J. Heldrich Center for Workforce Development at Rutgers University.

Resourceful Women More Attractive Mates

"It's not like there are no men graduating from college," Van Horn said. "It's not a big enough change that it's so noticeable."

In fact, much research shows that women, just like men, are more likely to be married if they have greater educational attainment and more earning power, says Scott Coltrane, a senior scholar with the Center on Contemporary Families.

Economic equality also translates to more equality in marriage, Coltrane said. "When women have more resources, couples tend to make decisions that end up sharing more," he said.

"I don't see the institution of marriage being in any trouble. It's a different vision of marriage. Marriage will be helped by equality of men and women in the workplace."

Of course, even though women are getting more college and professional degrees and are improving their own earning potential, it remains to be seen whether they can bust through the corporate "glass ceiling" that still marginalizes them in executive suites.

If women are to translate their educational achievement into true earning power and professional stature, corporate America will also have to change, some experts say.

"[Women] still face inflexible workplace structures and job opportunities that are gender-biased and biased against parents," Gerson said.

No 'Take Our Sons to Work Day'

Despite these arguments, Sum sticks to his theory that less educated men comprise a social, economic and marital drain. And, he said, if you ask young women, they'd back him up.

"Many women perceive this problem to be real," he said. "It is not our imagination."

The college gender gap damages young men even more, Sum said. Men not only lag behind female students but lack many of the directed mentoring opportunities designed to encourage professional development after college. After all, there is no "Take Our Sons to Work" day.

Surely, scholars may disagree on whether the economic deficiency of men is a social plague or a potential leveler of restrictive gender roles. But, Coltrane said: "There's no putting the genie back in the bottle. There's no way to reverse this trend over the next few decades."

Max

Thursday, July 18, 2002 - 11:16 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Well, as a semi-educated, intelligent working and single woman, I can tell you one thing for sure. Once you turn 40, there are more obstacles to relationships than intelligence.

I'm very independent, always have been. If I don't have some time to myself on a regular basis, I get a little nuts. Seems that some men find this intimidating. My ex-husband never understood why I didn't want to do EVERYTHING with him.

I make great money doing a stressful, but rewarding corporate job. My ex-husband always made way less than me and said it didn't bother him, but his actions proved otherwise. (Oh, was the more educated of the two of us?) Many men find it intimidating to make less than the woman in their lives.

I'm over 40--okay, let's be honest, over 45. Single men in my age group are usually either gay, dysfunctional, or seeking a 20-something trophy for their arm.

I own my own home, my own car (paid for), my own credit cards (with zero balances). I don't need anyone else's money, protection, or shelter. I have a very active social life with lots of friends with varying interests. I don't need a man to entertain me, although it would be nice to have a 'partner in crime', so to speak.

In fact, I've long said that the ideal situation for me would be for the man in my life to live next door in his own house. The fence separating the two houses would have a gate with a lock on both sides. If the locks are off, come on in! Otherwise, it's time to be on your own for a bit. :) Of course, then we don't have to hassle over things like stray socks in the hallway, either (which would probably be mine).

I do miss having a relationship. I miss the intimacy (which is more than just sex, IMHO). But I don't let that stop me from having a full life and enjoying myself. Heck, even as a teenager I went to movies and dances and did some traveling on my own.

I guess the bottom line is this: intelligence is important to me in a potential mate, but that doesn't necessarily equate to education in the institutionalized sense of the word. What matters most is compassion, openness, independence, and a sense of humor.

Okay, I confess, a decent body and the ability to enjoy (as Kevin Costner says in Bull Durham) "long, slow, wet kisses that last for hours", wouldn't hurt!

Schoolmarm

Thursday, July 18, 2002 - 02:13 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
And we all wonder why I'm "single--again"??

And stuck in a small town to boot!

Interesting article and it hits close to home!

Adven

Friday, July 19, 2002 - 04:17 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
You are in luck, Lost. I happen to be both a bachelor (well, divorced with baggage that is the envy of most major airport carousels) and well educated (more degrees than the equator). I do have warts covering parts of my anatomy that shall remain nameless and drool uncontrollably at inconvenient moments, mostly on the pillow, but I am, otherwise, quite a catch. So, this notion that prospects are bleak for today's woman is nonsense. If you promise to take care of any excess bodily fluid on my pillow, I might just turn out to be the man of your dreams.

Max

Friday, July 19, 2002 - 07:59 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
LOL Adven!

Merlin

Friday, July 19, 2002 - 08:15 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Adven said I do have warts covering parts of my anatomy that shall remain nameless

TVCH has some very creative people and I am sure someone could suggest some names for your warts Adven.

Adven

Saturday, July 20, 2002 - 06:44 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Way ahead of you, Merlin. My warts are already named (Blackie, Fluffie, Snowball and the Thing), alphabetized and color coded. My organizational skills are another reason I'm quite a catch. I do have another one beginning to appear that, by early indications and with any luck, could grow into the size of a Buick, so if you'd like to open this up to a "Name That Wart" contest, I, and my wart, would be honored.

Maryann

Saturday, July 20, 2002 - 07:38 am EditMoveDeleteIP
In fact, I've long said that the ideal situation for me would be for the man in my life to live next door in his own house. The fence separating the two houses would have a gate with a lock on both sides. If the locks are off, come on in! Otherwise, it's time to be on your own for a bit. Of course, then we don't have to hassle over things like stray socks in the hallway, either (which would probably be mine). <--Max
---
I think that this worked for Susan B Anthony as well...and she had six kids! (that is if I'm thinking of right feminist)

Karuuna

Saturday, July 20, 2002 - 08:22 am EditMoveDeleteIP
And there ya go! With a fine warty catch like Adven around, how can anyone believe the media? All you need to go with him is a big bottle of wart remover and a porter to carry all that baggage. Life is good, isn't it?

Urgrace

Sunday, July 21, 2002 - 07:28 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
This opens up an interesting idea. There are a lot of men these days, attractive, bright, witty, some college men some not, who are just not getting married.

Times have changed. Dating is mostly no longer the way it used to be. The rules of tradition gone. Young people don't have a stencil of action to go by, and college 'intellect' is not necessarily the perfect solution.

Not all these men are looking for jail-bait, same sex partners, or their 'mommy' to date. Some would be happy to have a life's partner and a family of their own.

Having said all that, would you happen to know about a dozen ladies who are interested in some very attractive men between the ages of 27 and 37, all looking for the perfect partner, some of them have degrees, others who are very intelligent despite not finishing college? <my brother, very attractive, graduated with a 4.0 gpa, just turned 47 and finally found a lady (near his age) and married in May> My family and friends would like to know?

Merlin

Sunday, July 21, 2002 - 07:58 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Hi Urgrace. You requested about a dozen ladies but failed to specify how many men are involved on the other side of this equation. Is this a one on one situtation or is some alegbra involved?

Spygirl

Sunday, July 21, 2002 - 08:06 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
<Raises hand.....>

Spygirl

Sunday, July 21, 2002 - 08:24 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I've read this thread now and I have some comments.

This whole education thing has been bothersome to me for a while. At this point, I have no idea what effect my education will have on my....what would you call it....appeal(?) as a wife. It has bothered me, but clearly not enough to stop pursuing two advanced degrees. Some people have commented to me over the last several years that I'm only seeking these degrees because I haven't married yet and if I had married then I would not have done this. Well, I think that is crap, especially since I'll never be able to answer the "what if" scenario.

Is it possible that simply by pursuing something I love very much that I have eliminated a big pool of eligible bachelor's?

Merlin

Sunday, July 21, 2002 - 08:28 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
yep, unless you want to marry down

Max

Sunday, July 21, 2002 - 08:36 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
It depends on what you consider "eligible," Spygirl. :) If you consider someone eligible who might not understand conversations you'd like to share, then yes, you've cut down the pool.

However, there are lots of intelligent people (guys and gals) who don't have degrees from universities.

I remember dating a really hunky guy way back in my 20s. He was a lot of fun to party with and was absolutely goregeous. He wasn't the sharpest crayon in the box, though. One time we were in a club with a bunch of people and something had happened (I don't even know what) and he asked me if all was okay. I said everything was copacetic and he got this mad look on his face and said, "WHAT did you call me?!" At which point, all I could do was laugh hysterically (yes, I was a bit drunk at the time). THen I had to try and explain through my laughter that it just meant everything was okay. I don't think he believed me.

Anyway, that was when I knew that he was definitely not in the eligible bachelor pool, despite the fact that I lusted after that beautiful body like nobody's business!

Spygirl

Sunday, July 21, 2002 - 08:39 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Actually, I was thinking of the reverse. Have I narrowed the number of men who would be interested in dating and/or marrying me simply because of my education?

Karuuna

Sunday, July 21, 2002 - 08:57 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
all this conversation reminds of my growing up, when I was always at the top of my class. My mother, instead of being proud of my accomplishments, would say to me "now don't get too smart! No one will ever want to marry you!"

Sheesh. No wonder I have a few screws loose!

Max

Sunday, July 21, 2002 - 08:58 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Isn't that still the same thing? I mean, would you really want a man who wanted you to be less intelligent and educated than you are?

For me, I'd rather be alone than settle for a man who doesn't cherish every little part of me, mind, body, and soul. I've done it the other way before and it's not worth it, IMHO. That works vice versa, too. I don't want to ever settle again. :)

Spygirl

Sunday, July 21, 2002 - 09:08 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Well, Max, I do have some strong opinions about that. And your stories are pretty much indicative of why I have my strong opinions. I have always wondered if problems would develop if a woman was two degrees more educated than a man. I fully expect to be slammed and ridiculed for that comment, but hey -- I'm putting it out there.


This is in theory and somewhat what I've seen in classmate's lives. But, honestly, I have done very very little dating since I started graduate school 4 years ago, so I have no idea what will have changed about how I interact with men.

Recently, an old boyfriend from high school started calling and emailing me and I realized that it would never work because he is completely in "party" mode still. He has made snide comments about how much "homework" I have and how stupid it is to spend "that much time" studying. That is the main reason I haven't dated during school, and now coming out on the other side, I'm wondering what will happen.

Would I date someone without an equivalent degree? Well, duh -- I'd have to. How many single men are out there with a Ph.D.?? Not many, I'm thinking.

Would I date someone without a degree at all -- no bachelor's degree? Well....I'd have to probably say no. Education is a big thing to me, so how could I find someone attractive who does not value it at all?

Would I date someone somewhere in between? I have absolutely no idea.

And Max -- you're right on -- if they can't love every little part of who I am...too bad. I'm not ever going to settle. I'm perfectly happy being single if it comes to choosing between that and something less than I deserve :)

Marysafan

Tuesday, July 23, 2002 - 09:24 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Hmmm...very interesting discussion going on here. I married young (18). It was a different time. The Viet Nam war was at it's height. College was not in the cards for most of the young men in our mining community. Their choice was either to enlist or wait to be drafted. Most enlisted.

My hubby was very intelligent (IQ tested at 152)so he was given the opportunity for advanced schooling in elctronics (and also secret stuff). We got married because we wanted to be together during this time.

Since our marriage, I pursued college and have a degree. He still doesn't. I admire his intelligence, and he admires mine...although we are intelligent in different areas.

The ironic thing about this match is that my hubby was my best friend's boyfriend. She went away to college, he joined the Navy. When he came home from boot camp. She told him that she could never marry a man who didn't have a college degree or a "profession". They parted ways.

He called me to "talk"...and the rest they say is history.

He now owns his own sucessful business. I sure am glad she felt way.

Warprulz

Tuesday, July 23, 2002 - 09:13 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I'm right here. Bachelor of Arts in Computer Science from Simpson College in Indianola, Iowa.

Would I marry (or should I say get re-married) a woman without a college degree? I'd say yes provided she's intelligent, share the same value system I do, etc. I wouldn't feel threatened by someone who has a higher degree than I. I know I'm capable of getting the higher degree, but I don't think it'd help to make more money in the Information Technology (IT) industry with its current shake-down. A Master's probably would, but I've heard both ways so who knows.

Just my opinion.

Aussiedeb

Wednesday, July 24, 2002 - 07:31 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Guess I am lucky then, since I am in college now full time and work as a tutor at the college due to my wonderful GPA, and hubby started this semester part time as he works full time.

We dont have time to socialize and spend our weekends at home doing homework in different rooms. We both love it.

But my ex husband back in Oz wouldnt let me go back to school for a degree, he felt threatened. He knew I had more intelligience and therefore keeping me out of college made him think he was superior..duh!! look who is laughing now..

My hubby now is lucky as I tutor he gets all the free help at home lol..although I told him its not free

Schoolmarm

Friday, July 26, 2002 - 12:17 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Spy....the PhD DOES get in the way...BUT it depends on the guy. Some guys are threatened by a smart woman (degreed or not) just as some are threatened by a woman who brings in a sizable salary. Again, there are many freeloaders out there as well.

About guys with PhDs...most are in the sciences and most are introverts. Go look in the grad section of the library on Friday or Saturday night or take a stroll through the science labs. There they are! Many are nice guys, some are real social geeks, many you would probably not want to date, but some are real catches. There are LOTS of lonely academics on the online dating sites. Enough said...we spend our "datable" years in the library or lab, and then move to where there is a job!

By the way...often times a high IQ does NOT equate with social skills, the ability to fix things or good old common sense...or in my ex-husband's case the ability to carry on a conversation.

If you find an extra "great" man out there save him for me!

Ocean_Islands

Saturday, July 27, 2002 - 09:48 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Where are all the uneducated women?

Snee

Monday, July 29, 2002 - 03:40 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
adven, you made me laugh so hard i just about spit a raspberry out my nose!

(where are all the refined snees?)