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Archive through May 21, 2002 25   05/22 10:01am
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Archive through May 27, 2002 25   05/28 01:46pm

Max

Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 07:22 am EditMoveDeleteIP
As an adoptee, if I really wanted to have kids (since I couldn't manage to do so biologically), I'd pursue that route. There are so many kids without a stable home, especially older ones stuck in foster care.

Julieboo

Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 09:05 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Well that route (adopting) is a long and expensive one. My sister, who has been trying for 2 years to get pregnant, is researching it. It costs about $33,000 for an international adoption and then you also (usually) have to take at least 2 months off from work (both parents) to go to the country, etc. Adopting here is a long and expensive deal also. Some of the adoptions here are way too "open" for my sister. Where the birth mother wants to spend certain holidays, etc, with the kid...

Max

Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 09:30 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Yes,if you want to adopt a baby, it can be a long, expensive road. Especially with international adoptions.

However, there are alternatives if your options are open to adopting older children. It's still not easy, but having kids is never easy, no matter how you go about it.

I have a friend who works with Bethany Christian Services. They place babies as well as older and special needs children.

I'm just suggesting that there are alternative avenues to explore if someone really, really, really wants to have kids.

Then there's always other ways to get involved with kids, too. Not the same as having your own by any means, but there are always organizations looking for folks to help with kid's activities. Church youth programs, big brothers/sisters, and so on.

Just some thoughts. It's one of those "when life gives you lemons, make lemonade" kind of things. :)

Julieboo

Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 10:23 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Thanks Max. I just emailed my sister and she told me she just attended a meeting at the place you suggested about 3 weeks ago. This group believes in "completely open" adoptions. That means the birth mother can be as involved in the life of the child as she wants. Of course this is not what the law says, but b/c this is a private adoption place, they can put any restrictions like this they want. They even had an adoptive couple and the birth mother there to speak to the group meeting she went to. They named the baby after the birth mother and the baby has 2 easters, 2 christmas, etc. - one with "adoptive" family and one with birth family. The birth mother comes to their house about 2 times a month, etc. She said it seemed like a divorce where the kids is divided up between 2 houses.

Twiggyish

Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 11:07 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Julie, my prayers are with your sister.

Julieboo

Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 11:24 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Thanks Twiggy!

Car54

Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 11:33 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I have a close friend who has a daughter in an open adoption. She and her husband were "too old" technically to adopt through normal processes, and the teenaged daughter of a family friend became pregnant and decided to give the baby up.
Their experience has been a beautiful one- the little girl has a set of loving mature parents, and she knows her birth mother and her family so she has no real un-answered questions about her past.

My friend is an amazing woman and they have done a beautiful job in both families keeping things right for the child. She is a lucky little girl.

Tess

Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 12:39 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Julie, my daughter is adopted and it didn't cost $33,000 nor did we have to go to Korea to get her. She was brought to us to our airport 15 minutes from our house. If my health would allow, we would adopt another child in a heartbeat.

Yes, the cost required some sacrifices on our part but those were unimportant compared to the rewards at the end. My husband saved up his vacation for 2 years to be able to stay home with us after our daughter arrived. I've been completely disabled since 1992 so my staying home was never an issue. Yes, we required special letters and such because of my health issues and we were told that no family of an american infant would chose and older mom with such health issues. However, international adoption was always the route I had wanted. I just had to wait for my DH to get on the same page.

I'll say a prayer for your sister that it all works out for her as it did for us. I wouldn't trade my child for any other--not ever.

Julieboo

Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 12:45 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
My best friend adopted a Korean baby last fall. (well the adoption won't be final for a few weeks yet) but he arrived in Iowa last September. I think it was $20,000 for that. (They went with the Korean adoption, in part, because they "delivered.")

They are in love with their baby and he is adorable.

It took my friends over a year to get their son. (Then again, it takes nearly that long to do it the "traditional" way!)

Jenhavins

Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 01:46 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I have halfway read the entire thread and intend to go back and read more, however I am just back from vacation and am swamped with work, so I will wait until this evening. I wanted to share my opinion on this subject when I get little breaks in the day.

My mother was an only child, and so was I. My grandmother passed away(I was all she had since my grandfather and mother preceded her in death), so I am all that is left on my mother's side. I am 36 years old and am married to a wonderful man and have 2 stepchildren (14 and 16 and don't live with us but visit when they can). My father's side is rather large but I am not very close to anyone on that side since I live so far from them.

We are currently trying to have a child. I wanted to be in a place in my selfish life where I would be smart and strong enough to raise and love a child in this day and age. One problem. It is much harder to conceive now than I thought it would be. I have always wanted children and I just wanted to be prepared. I am afraid I have waited too long. We will be trying fertility later on this year. My husband will also be going through a battery of tests as well to make sure all the plumbing is still working.

I just watched my best friend have her first child and it was a wonderful experience. I am so happy for her. I am Blake's godmother and consider it to be an honor.

I am forever having people ask me if I have any children and do I plan on having any so late in life (even my father has put in his two cents). It doesn't bother me when they ask, but I don't personally feel that I am that long in the tooth just yet. It does scare me that I might not know the joy of motherhood, but I haven't given up hope yet.

We have talked about adoption, but we are going to try for a couple of more years.

Thanks for listening!

Buttercup

Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 03:50 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Jen, more and more women are having children later in life these days. I sure don't consider you too old! As a matter of fact, the word smart comes to mind instead

Good luck to you and your husband :)

Buttercup

Jenhavins

Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 05:38 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Thanks for your kind words Butter. I have all along thought I was doing the smart thing, and have seen and heard about people waiting. I hope I am not too late. I am doing all the HP testing and have the ovulating down to a fine science! I am keeping my fingers crossed.

Twiggyish

Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 05:50 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Jen, relax and don't worry about it. I know that seems hard to do. Sometimes too much worrying can hinder things.

Schoolmarm

Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 06:14 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Hmmm....I find it mildly amusing that this thread is about women who have CHOSEN not to have children. In my case, the choice was out of my control. I would give my eyeteeth to have a child of my own. Alas, I'm 41, single and, well....Tess can tell you about the lack of eligible men in this tiny town I live in.

I've always wanted to be a Mom! I was everyone's babysitter, and most people assume that I have children, as I am a teacher. Now, I prepare teachers. My office is full of toys because I give a workshop on teaching with toys and early childhood music is one of my specialties.

I AM (however) rather grateful that I didn't have children with my ex-husband, because now I don't have to see him or know anything about either him or his dysfunctional family. My strong desire to have children was one of the things that broke up our marriage...you know, that would have required EFFORT on his part! For many years I resented him for wasting my prime "baby-making" years...as we were married for ALL of my twenties.

My thirties found me with an abusive boyfriend and then to graduate school, where I didn't have time to sleep, let alone procreate. AND in a school of music, well, I just wasn't most guy's "type". SIGH. Then I moved to this tiny town where I have very little in common with most of the "eligible" bachelors--who aren't very good husband material.

So now I'm in my 40s. No husband, no children, very little hope of either. I pray that I'm wrong about that, but I'm resigned to living alone and I HATE it. My nieces and nephew are all out of state and I HATE that I'm not near them, however, I'm single and I have to support myself and college jobs are VERY hard to come by. I've been trying for four years to move out of this town and to a more populous area or to closer to my parents. I HATE the fact that I will grow old alone and will have to rely on a couple of nieces or my nephew to care for me in my old age.

I find it interesting to note that I have never dated a guy who had children. Spy, butter, what do you make of that?

I would give up most of my career for the right husband and children. I don't want to adopt. I know that it is wonderful for most people and that there are kids out there that need great homes. I've always worked with that kind of kid...and I'm not sure I would have the energy for a high needs child. I also know that you don't get complete medical information on the adopted kid. I've dealt with more than my share of crack babies, and I KNOW that I could not deal with that erratic behavior 24/7. Before anyone disses me...let me tell you that I worked in the inner city for 8 years with high risk children. I've also worked as a music therapist with severely/profoundly handicapped, autistic, hearing impared, etc. etc. etc. I was excellent at working with these children and enjoyed all of these opportunities, however, from these opportunities, I realize that I CANNOT deal with a high needs child 24/7.

I doubt that any agency would allow a single women over 40 to adopt. I couldn't bear to hear them say "No". I've considered just getting artificially inseminated, but will wait until I get tenure next year. I don't want to be the ground-breaking woman to try this at my university.

I have decided to give this little town one more year. Actually that decision was made for me by not being successful in getting hired elsewhere. Just another example of how outside factors in life "make" the decisions for you.

I still have a glimmer of hope. My grandmother didn't get married until her late 30s and had her children when she was 40 and 44. And that was back in the 1930s.

I just returned from visiting a pair of friends (I was their match-maker) who are expecting their second baby in three weeks. They marveled at my exciting (!! have they BEEN in my little town!!) life...all my travels and my upcoming European adventure. They were rather envious. I however, coveted THEIR life. They live in a very interesting mid-sized city, have a delightful fifteen month old son, have a great church home, wonderful music in their lives, and a sense of family. The husband stayed home with their baby last year, and this year the wife will stay home with both of the babies. They have a great marriage and are very happy.

In the meantime, I will continue to live life to the fullest. Maybe I'll find someone wonderful on my European adventure....


By the way, in education, you use your sick leave if you want paid maternity leave. If you run out of sick days, you go unpaid. Call me crass, but I resent the use of personal sick days for a child who is MILDLY sick. We all get overworked, and there were a couple of mothers who would abuse their personal sick leave to stay home with a cranky (but not REALLY sick) kid. Thus, they had a paid sub in their room (whom WE all had to help) and could stay home and get their grading and other work caught up. If someone who was single tried this, they would be written up for taking a "mental health" day. I've covered many a class for working Moms and Dads...sometimes (but not often) they would return the favor when I needed a class covered to present a workshop.

Thanks for letting me rant!

Schoolmarm

Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 06:16 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Good grief....that must get the record for longest post! Sorry about that!

Lancecrossfire

Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 06:17 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
No Marm--I have longer posts--lol

Jenhavins

Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 06:58 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
That was a wonderful post Marm.

I was lucky enough to find a wonderful man by accident and while not looking, however, if it hadn't been for him, I would have forged straight into my career (which is a large part of my life), climbed the corporate ladder, and who knows what would have happened or where I would have landed. I had pretty much decided on two things...never ever ever date a bodybuilder (first husband) and never date anyone with children. I wasn't interested in an ready-made family.

I was asked three times by a good friend to go out with her brother. He was on leave from San Diego. I thought that he must be a total geek or they think I am so hideous that I can't date on my own. The third time I went after a lot of pleading and the rest is history. We kept in touch for a year and then he moved here. I love him with all my heart after 7 years and wouldn't trade him for the world.

I am lucky that I have someone to grow old with. Children or no children, I have already been blessed. He has a great heart, loves his children, has strong convictions, and makes me laugh.

I hope you find your soulmate. Oh, I also think that sick leave should be used for maternity leave. We have too many people who abuse it where I work. It irritates me that I don't try abuse the system, but alot of people do.

Oregonfire

Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 07:13 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Schoolmarm, that's one of the main reasons I decided not to go for a Ph.D--the scarcity of jobs in academia forces you to take a job anywhere, regardless of personal preference or working on other areas of your life.

I couldn't tolerate living in a tiny town myself (or a polluted big city for that matter).
My friend I went to grad school with stayed in the tiny town where we got our degrees. She's got a great job at the university there, recently lost 40 pounds, is going to rent a great house, and should be happy right? Wrong. The lack of available men has really got her down. But she refuses to move, so part of me thinks, well, take a risk and move if you really want to bag someone! Luckily, she already has two grown sons from a previous marriage, so that's not an issue.

My current schooling has a secondary purpose--I'm more likely to meet "the marrying kind" in a corporate environment than in my current, erratic teaching gig. I also think that graphic design is a field that attracts more men. In my current profession, female English instructors often outnumber the men, and further, a workplace that has some continuity is needed to build relationships. Seeing someone once every two months at the copy machine is not going to make you "imprint" on anyone.

It's all part of my evil plan...

Twiggyish

Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 07:23 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Marm, both open and private adoptions give plenty of medical information. Also, not all adopted children are from high risk parents. There are many wise young women who choose a better life for their unborn babies by placing them up for adoption.

Schoolmarm

Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 09:01 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
You're right twigs, but I still think that the priority for a healthy newborn would be to a happily married couple in their 20s or 30s....I realize that I'm not on the top of the "desirable" list. A colleague of mine recently adopted a little girl after waiting many years. She and her husband are both in their early forties....they were in their thirties when they started their wait.

Oregon...you go girl!! By the way did I tell you that lots of guys in my town are completely intimidated by a woman with an education OR a house. I have both. The last guy here whom I seriously dated was 46 and still lived with his parents! And thought that THAT was completely normal. GET ME OUT OF HERE!!!

Riviere

Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 09:03 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Schoolmarm ~ I've seen plenty of Hollywood's elite mid-age women adopt but I guess they have money.. My grandma had a dau out of wedlock in 1939 who finally tracked her bio father down but he would not say anything about my grandma, until after her death in 1985.. My Mom (b.1941) always knew she had a sister out there somewhere and was delighted when contacted in 1988. Turned out this aunt of mine had survived a skin cancer just like Mom had and both shared a similar lack of basic maternal instincts.. Mom let this aunt have her pick of my grandma's jewelry and gave her all 4 old photo albums spanning 1925-1980, to copy photos from, then after a couple yrs of Mom corresponding with her and 1 visit, her sister chilled out.. It was a miracle in 1992 a box with those old family picture albums arrived at my door! I knew a few were missing (all my life Grandma and I would sit looking at the photos) but I never said a word, just grateful having most of them returned! I do think my adopted aunt had a sweeter life than Mom with paid college & other privileges unknown by most of my kin in that generation.. I never had a dream of getting married & having babies, just the opposite! But I was raised by grandmothers that told me never have kids they'll break your heart, with no idea how to prevent pregnancy since they wouldn't talk about birds & bees either.. When I married I had to read a book about contraception! Married young, wanted out, his idea to trap me was get me drunk on my 19th birthday and take me when I was passed out.. I met the responsibilty and still cherish my firstborn son, despite his bio father & I divorced anyway when he was age 1.. My third marriage I reluctantly agreed with my husband to have a child (another c-section) and that worked out more happily! I've at times had my regrets that I "got stuck" raising kids when truly I never wanted any, but I've never resented my beloved sons or neglected, abused, abandoned them, as my Mom often did me.. I'm an honest and responsible woman above all, and have raised my 2 sons to try and be likewise! Becoming an accidental grandma was a shock, but I also adore my grandson.. Have total respect & admiration of women and men alike who choose not to have kids and have the smarts not to. For the accidental parents (like me) who get the hang of it, I don't have to say most clouds have silver linings, you already found out. For the people who leap to assumptions, you've never walked the miles in my shoes to judge me, have you, and just because an honest opinion doesn't gel with yours it doesn't make parents like me bad or resentful or abusive. I broke the chain my Mom started, raised happy boys, but yes! If I had it all to do-over I'd take the do-over and never have any children. I can further say if I had a do-over I'd choose to be adopted, too. :)

Tess

Tuesday, May 28, 2002 - 09:25 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Our daughter came through the "special needs" program. She had excellent care in Korea and we received very detailed medical records which we were able to take to a specialist before we were required to make our decision. I have to interject that we had made our decision several weeks prior with just a xerox of a photo to go on. The rest was just a formality. Nothing has cropped up in the past 5 years that are beyond our abilities to cope and she is a very lovely, happy and bright child.

With every child there are unknowns and chances you take whether they are adopted or biologically yours. I think it's worth it.

Jewels

Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 07:28 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I think adoption it is worth it too. And I'm really glad my parents thought it was worth it or I wouldn't be here!

Oregonfire

Wednesday, May 29, 2002 - 09:34 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Before this falls to the bottom of the list--what do you think the effects of endometriosis are on the ability to get pregant? It's a really personal question, but I think I may have it--am setting up an appointment tomorrow morning.

Tess

Thursday, May 30, 2002 - 12:03 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Oregon, it depends an awful lot on the extent of the endometriosis. That's an honest answer, not a dodge. Only a doctor can answer for certain and I would suspect that answer would only come after extensive tests which might include a laproscopy.

I will think good thoughts for you in the morning. I've never had endometriosis myself but do know several women who have.

Tess

Thursday, May 30, 2002 - 12:15 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I did a very quick Google search and came up with this snippet. It appears to offer hope that fertility is not necessarily destroyed by having this disease. The parts I read on various sites all did confirm that diagnosis is made by laporoscopy. I've had that surgery myself and, although all surgery is to be taken seriously, it is relatively minor and recovery time is generally short. Good luck to you, tomorrow.

Btw--if you DON'T have this, there are other conditions which mimic the symptoms. A good doctor will explore different avenues. There are new diagnostic tests which weren't available when I was trying to have a child just 6-9 years ago. Two years ago they were, however, and I was able to finally get a diagnosis of my particular problem.
~~~~
Endometriosis:
Treatment Options

Although there is no cure for endometriosis, a variety of treatment options exist. Goals may include: relieving/reducing pain symptoms, shrinking or slowing endometrial growths, preserving or restoring fertility, and preventing/delaying recurrence of the disease.

PAIN MEDICATION: Over-the-counter pain relievers may include aspirin and acetaminophen, as well prostaglandin inhibitors such as ibuprofen, naproxen sodium, indomethecin, and tolfenamic acid. In some cases, prescription drugs may be required.

HORMONAL THERAPY: Hormonal treatment aims to stop ovulation for as long as possible and may include: oral contraceptives, progesterone drugs, a testosterone derivative (danazol), and GnRH agonists (gonadotropin releasing hormone drugs). Side effects may be a problem for some women.

SURGERY: Conservative surgery seeks to remove or destroy the growths, relieve pain, and may allow pregnancy to occur in some cases. Conservative surgery can involve laparoscopy (outpatientÊ surgery in which the surgeon can view the inside of the abdomen through a tiny lighted tube that is inserted through one or more tiny abdominal incisions.Ê Also referred to as "belly-button" surgery.) or laparotomy (more extensive procedure, full incision, longer recovery period). Hormonal therapy may be prescribed along with conservative surgery. Radical surgery, which may be necessary in severe cases, involves hysterectomy, removal of all growths, and removal of ovaries.

ALTERNATIVE TREATMENT: Complementary treatment options may include traditional Chinese medicine, nutritional approaches, homeopathy, allergy management, and immune therapy. To learn more about alternative therapies, see: The Endometriosis Sourcebook, Overcoming Endometriosis, and EA newsletters Vol. 17, nos. 2, 3, 5-6.

Schoolmarm

Thursday, May 30, 2002 - 04:23 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Oregon...one of my best friends has/had endometriosis and one of her treatments was to get pregant ASAP not because of reduced fertility, but because of the hormones. She popped out three kids and that delayed surgery.

I've had several friends who have severe cases of this. In one case she is 43 and only has one working ovary and massive scarring. She doesn't want to have kids and is single. She has four dogs and at last count 5 cats...probably more since I haven't seen her for a couple of months. The other friend is married and in her late twenties...she likes kids, but I don't see them having any. She has also had a couple of surgeries.

Both of my friends have had SEVERE cases. Many others have milder cases that don't require such invasive treatment.

Here's hoping for a great report from the doc!

Oregonfire

Thursday, May 30, 2002 - 08:30 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Thanks Tess and Schoolmarm! There have been sharp pangs coming from one ovary area for the past week. I remember a friend in grad school had it, and she was so pale--I'm really pale too. Not the strongest correlation in the world, but I trust my intuition on this (She also had a baby immediately during and after--good for her!)

The good news is that if I DO have it, I'm in a very early stage, as supposedly the more the hurts, the less advanced it is. Better go make that appointment.

Urgrace

Thursday, May 30, 2002 - 01:31 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
It's taken me a while to try and catch up on the posts since I've been gone, and it took me a large part of the time reading this thread.

While I have known quite a few persons who do not wish to have children, their reasons have been quite diverse. My own neighbor has no children, due to problems and a hysterectomy at a young age, but I noticed that the older she got the more she ranted about not wanting children. It seemed a good protective shield, but I am still not convinced that she didn't want children. She has always had cats to fawn over and give attention, and that is probably the best for her.

Yes, I'm guilty of conversing about my children and grandchildren. They are a huge part of my life that I would not ever want to give up. We all talk about the people or things that are important to us, and it saddens me that childless persons who say they don't want children say they don't want to hear about other people's children. That indicates that they are not interested in the person, too, not just their offspring. I have had many a conversation with parents and non-parents where the subject of my offspring never came up, while indulging in listening to their excitement over a material subject like new golf clubs or some hot date they met in a bar. I'm only generalizing not claiming anyone here has done that. My children were and are more important to me than material aggrandizing. They are people I know and associate with. The subject comes up.

BTW I wanted all four of my children. I had the first three when I was very young and the last when I was 30. One of my children is a special needs child with severe/profound disabilities from cerebral palsy. He has never walked, talked, or chewed a meal, but he is a joy. God gave him to me. I am blessed.

Moondance

Thursday, May 30, 2002 - 01:44 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
>One of my children is a special needs child with severe/profound disabilities from cerebral palsy. He has never walked, talked, or chewed a meal, but he is a joy. God gave him to me. I am blessed.<

I had the pleasure of meeting him and He is a joy:)

Urgrace

Thursday, May 30, 2002 - 02:44 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Moonie!