Archive through June 20, 2002
MoveCloseDeleteAdmin

The ClubHouse: Archives: "Plus-size" passengers pay premium: Archive through June 20, 2002

Max

Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 09:13 am EditMoveDeleteIP
This was in the news yesterday:
Southwest starts enforcing plus-size passenger policy

Basically, if you need a seat belt extension,
overflow the 18-3/4" seat, or can't get the
arm rests to go down flat, you'll be required
to purchase TWO seats on the plane. The policy has been in place for a long time, but they are now going to start enforcing it consistently.

Comments? (I have some, but I wanna see yours first. )

Abbynormal

Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 09:17 am EditMoveDeleteIP
All I know is if I had to pay for 2 seats, the seat next to me better dang well be empty!

Max

Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 09:28 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Here's more coverage of the issue:

'Passengers of Size' Pay Double on Southwest
By Jon Herskovitz
DALLAS (Reuters) - Passengers who are too large to squeeze between the arm rests of Southwest Airlines Co. seats will be charged double for flying the low-cost carrier, the company said on Wednesday.

The Dallas-based airline, which does not have first or business class sections with larger seats, said the policy has been in effect for some time but will be more strictly enforced beginning next week.

Starting next Wednesday, its "people of size" policy will require passengers who need seat-belt extensions or cannot lower the arm rests on their seats to purchase two seats if they are flying on a plane near or at capacity.

"If you consume more than one seat, you will be charged for more than one seat," said spokeswoman Beth Harbin.

Harbin said that under the existing policy, fewer than 1 percent of Southwest passengers have been asked to buy a second seat, which is offered at the same rate at which the passenger purchased their original ticket.

Southwest seats are 18-3/4 inches (48 cm) wide.


When the plane is not crowded, a larger passenger can apply for a refund for the second seat, she said.

Southwest said that about 90 percent of the letters it receives on the issue have been from passengers complaining that their seating has been encroached upon by larger neighbors. The airline said one of the top complaints it receives are from passengers who say they were "sat on" during their flight.

Fat activist Marilyn Wann, author of the book "FAT!SO?," said airlines should provide seating that accommodates people of all shapes and sizes who are paying for a trip.

"You are buying passage from point A to point B. You are not buying real estate," Wann said.

SENSE OF FAIRNESS

David Stempler, president of the Air Travelers Association, said that airlines have had an informal policy for years of encouraging larger people to buy an extra seat.

He said the topic will likely gain greater attention as Americans grow fatter and airlines try to keep seats narrow to comply with federal mandates on aisle size and their own need to pack passengers on planes.

The extra seat policy is not unique to Southwest. American Airlines said the "purchase of an additional seat will be necessary for customers whose bodies protrude extensively into an adjacent seat," while other carriers have formal and informal policies on the extra seat requirement.

Stempler said he supported charging certain people for two seats out of fairness to other passengers and the potential safety concern of having people of size shoehorned into a small coach seat.

"If people are taking up two seats, they ought to pay for two seats," Stempler said. "They are really impinging on the sense of fairness."

Southwest was sued eight years ago on the issue by a larger passenger forced to buy a second seat and the case was dismissed, Harbin said.

The airline said the move to more strictly enforce the policy was prompted by its decision to stop giving out its trademark plastic boarding passes on a first-come, first-served basis to passengers at its departure gate.

Southwest, which does not have assigned seating, is starting to dispense paper boarding passes instead in an effort to cut waiting time for customers who have to pass through more stringent security measures after the Sept. 11 attacks.

The new boarding passes, which are given out at Skycap counters, ticket gates and at departure gates, provide an opportunity for Southwest workers to show greater discretion in enforcing the people of size policy, airline officials said.

Morgan Downey, executive director of the American Obesity Association said his organization is considering lawsuits against the carrier for a policy he called highly subjective.

"They are packing us in like sardines and they say it's our fault that their seats don't fit the traveling public," he said.

Rissa

Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 10:00 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I have so much sympathy for those poor airlines... NOT!!!! I am 5'6", totally average for a woman and I am not telling you what I weigh except that it's smack in the middle of ideal and that means thinner then most. I have not been comfortable on an airplane for years. My knees touch the seat in front of me and my arms are squished in. My husband is 6 feet and if he can't get an aisle seat, I don't think he would get on the plane at all. LOL The dimensions of those seats are so out of touch with reality. The last time we flew, just last month.. we paid extra to get bumped to first class because the time before I literally had to OD on pain killers to survive the flight. my back was throbbing for 6 hours. You can't cross your legs or shift at all to get comfortable. I cannot image what an average sized person goes through much less those who are more overweight.

As far as I am concerned.. I am paying the airline to get me from point A to point B, it's their problem to get everyone fitted in and to make it comfortable enough that we will use their airline again. If they want to charge extra for some guy who had the bad luck to get fat genes then I also want to see higher charges for the passengers who have *forgotten* to bathe anytime recently, those who spent a couple hours in the airport bar before the flight, those with too much perfume, those who can't figure out how to fly without yapping on-stop and those who had chili for dinner the day before. And if they are going to charge more for larger folks to travel then there should be a cost of living increase for them as well. Minimum wage raised for every pound above *average*?

This whole issue makes me angry.. it amounts to punishing someone for not being Twiggy. No, #&*$@ that, twiggy wouldn't fit either.. was too tall.

Fruitbat

Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 10:01 am EditMoveDeleteIP
It makes sense. Is there another solution? I think they should get double the bonus miles though. If you are paying for an additional seat then you should get double credit.

Julieboo

Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 10:07 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I'm with Rissa. I don't think it is fair. But I wouldn't want to be the person getting "sat on" either. Don't know the solution, except make more room altogether. And if you have to increase ticket prices in order to do so, so be it.

Pottedplant

Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 10:24 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Its not just fat people that impede on your space in the flight. I have flown with people who have taken sleeping pills or tranqilizers, & they have constantly drifted onto my shoulder, even though I kept trying to move them off. And what about large sports players, who have a small waist but huge shoulders, they nudge me too. Or next to a hyper active child. They fit into the seat next to me, but somehow get in my space. I even had one guy put his carry on in front of my feet!!! (he did move it when I asked him to).
I wish they would stop the seats from reclining. When the person in front of me reclines, sometimes i get about 6" between the back of their chair & my nose. I say fix the seats!

Sia

Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 10:38 am EditMoveDeleteIP
There are narrow seats everywhere. I am unable to comfortably fit into the chairs in my doctor's waiting room. You know the type: the industrial row of seats all fastened together in an immovable line like the ones with metal arms that you find all over airports. The doctor is likely to find me perched on his little swiveling stool or already on the exam table when he finally gets into the exam room, since I can't fit into the chair that matches the waiting room chairs unless I sit on one hip and tolerate the pain of the chair's arms digging into my outer thighs.

At a cookout last weekend, I stood on the deck of a friend's home for an hour rather than cram myself into one of those white molded-plastic lawn chairs that everyone seems to buy by the dozen. The hostess kept trying to bring me a chair until it reached the point of embarrassment; I retreated to the sofa in the house.

I don't WANT to be heavy, but I am. I would love to weigh about 89 pounds. I haven't weighed that little in years and years. Even when I was an "acceptable" weight I didn't realize it. I've found myself unacceptable for as long as I can remember.

Whoami

Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 11:17 am EditMoveDeleteIP
"I've found myself unacceptable for as long as I can remember."

Boy, is that ever a sad statement, but it cut me right through the bone, cause I can totally relate!

I flew on Frontier last year, and the belt barely fit (with my sister's help), and it was VERY tight. On the way back, I noticed another woman who was given a seat belt extension, so I asked for one too, so I could be more comfortable. The flight attendant looked at me like I was crazy. She said, "well, I only had that one, so I'll let you use my demo belt after we do the pre-flight routine." (ok, I don't know if she called it routine, just can't remember what it's called).
We were almost taxiing down the runway before she finally brought it to me!

So, they only had ONE seat belt extension? *sigh* You know, I realize I am severly overweight, but I also know I am not the fattest person on the planet. What do those other poor folk do?

How humiliating for the airlines to do this to an overweight person. And, the other above posters are right, we aren't the only ones who infringe on the space of other passangers.

Julieboo

Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 11:26 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I think some people are so mean. Do they think that overweight people choose to be that way? Like there is that much of a choice? Grrrr. (If you really want to get your blood boiling read a post in Survivor-Why Rosie-May 19th. I will not mention the poster by name, as to not flame him/her. But you will recognize the post when you read it. It is one of the first posts from May 19.)

Azriel

Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 11:26 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Having just made a 7 hour flight across the Atlantic, I have ALOT to say on this subject.
The seats are entirely uncomfortable for a person of normal weight. I had a slim 16 year old boy next to me and he had long arms and his elbows kept poking me.

I was in an aisle seat next to the restroom. I could hardly breath when everyone lined up by my seat. They were all breathing down on me and making me sick with thier bad breath. I was trying to get some sleep and had my face turned toward the aisle and I kept getting butts and crotches in my face!

I didn't even have my legs or feet in the aisle and I got nicked twice by the stewardess cart which hit every other seat on it's way down the aisle because the aisle was much too narrow for it.

Before they charge ANYONE for two seats they need to make the seats more comfortable for everyone. If we weren't shoe-horned into our own seat then their might not be as many supposed complaints about overflow from others.

Karuuna

Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 11:39 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Didn't one of the airlines move to new, roomier seats on their planes? Whatever happened to that? I'd fly them every time if that were true, and I could remember who the heck they were. This senility thing is getting darned old! :)

I find airplane seats impossibly uncomfortable. I'm very thin, but I'm also six feet tall, and my legs just don't fit. If I don't get an aisle seat, my legs are asleep about a half hour into the flight. And don't get me started about those folks that recline their seats making an already intolerable situation impossible!

I've actually tried to "buy" an empty seat next to me if I know the plane is going to be crowded, and the airlines wouldn't let me. Paying a discount fare for a second seat is much less expensive than upgrading to the roomier seats in business or first class.

I say if they're going to force some folks to purchase a second seat, you ought to let everyone do that if they want to. At least that would be consistent.

But bottom line, the airlines need to get more consumer friendly. Year after year they increase their prices and decrease their service. So much for free market capitalism.

Ryn

Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 12:00 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Karuuna? only one question - I paid $235 to fly from Indy to LA.... and that was an excellent fair.... in 1985 - I think fairs are pretty darn low since I paid almost the same amount ($260 I think) in March, 15 years later.

Rissa

Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 12:03 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I want to add that I fly at least 3-4 times a years, that's at least 8 flights if there are no stop-overs and I have never EVER been bothered by an over-weight person beside me. They might be rammed into their teeny little seat but the arm rest keeps them from taking any of my seat. So it's not at all a problem for other passengers. It's the shoulders that bump and that happens no matter what size the person next to you is. Azriel, you are absolutely correct. Let the airlines begin by making the seats they have adequate for a normal person.. normal being the societal average, which for a woman now-a-days is a size 14-16. Until they do that, I don't even want to hear anything they have to say. Why the heck should the airlines get to determine that anyone over 5'2" and 100 pounds is overweight? That's what they have done, because those are the only people who can possibly fit comfortably. I have a 28" inch waist but I have to suck it in to get that damm tray down and then literally have to crane my neck straight downwards to eat because the tray is where my stomach WOULD BE if I was able to exhale. My husband always takes the aisle seat because he is 6 feet tall and he is constantly being whacked by people walking by and the stewards trays. If he gets up to let me go to the bathroom and the person in front of us has his seat reclined then I have to stand on hubby's seat to get out, it's a damm joke. Bottom line is that if only stick figures flew then the airlines could ramm them in tighter and make more money, the rest of us are just messing up their net profit line.

Schoolmarm

Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 12:54 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I have been "consumed" by an overweight person on an airplane....yes, those armrests DO go up. This has happened to me several times. I don't like it. On the other hand, I would hate to have to buy two seats, if I gained another 100 pounds.

I'm only 5'1" but on those 50 seater little jets, I don't have enough room at all. Knees up against the seat, and I can't even stand up. I don't know how a "regular" height person does it! My cousin is 6'4" and is the PILOT for these jets. I have no clue how he gets his long legs into that tiny cockpit.

I hope my planes to Europe have bigger seats. All of the airlines that I know of that increased their seat size/legroom have been bought out by someone else.

I usually love to fly, however, I'm reminded of what one of my other cousins said about flying....it's just a high-classed bus. And with discount fares, more people who have uh....shall I say...hygene or personal space issues are flying.

And we don't have to worry about the tray table as much...most of the airlines aren't serving food unless you are going across an ocean.

<marm makes a note to take a bath, not wear perfume and to brush teeth and carry mints before she boards her plane to Europe>

Llkoolaid

Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 12:54 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I don't fly often, It terrifies me and I only do it when I have too.

I am big and I have no problem fitting comfortably into the seats on Air Canada, I have only flown once on Southwest. It was a 55 minute flight from LA to Vegas and it was horrible. Lucky for me we had our daughter who was 4 sitting between us so my husband who is average size and I had enough space because Hilary didn't take up much room. My husband was uncomfortable because his knees were under his chin and my hips were aching when I got off. The only way I got the seatbelt on was with my husbands help.

Never again would I give them a penny of my money. If we had of know we would have rented a car and driven.

Willsfan

Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 12:57 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I always get a window seat since I can press myself up against the side of the plane. I hate the middle seat! The aisle seat means every single person hits me on their way past and I attract carts like a magnet...they veer toward my lap.

I weigh 104-109lbs. (I am definitely a petite woman) and have had all shapes and sizes of people sit next to me over the years and usually the overweight people are the ones that try the hardest not to invade other people's space. Of course, there's probably some that are rude too, but so far I've not had any complaints about them.

If anyone has to pay for two seats then they should get 2 seats. The middle one should be vacant. This is discrimation.(sp?) I don't know it seems like every day the public gets less and less for their hard earned money.

My complaint would be about children. eeek..I better not even go there except to say that after one flight I was so badly bruised I could barely move the next day.

Calicocat

Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 12:59 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I have had the experience of sitting next to a "large" person on an airplane and I agree that it's not pleasant on a long trip.

However, that person is my husband so I'm willing to make the sacrifice (he gets the aisle, I get the middle seat). He fits between the arm rests but is more comfortable with a seatbelt extension.

I would be very upset if I had to pay for an extra seat when together we only take up two seats. We don't fly all that often, but we obviously won't be flying Southwest. (I wonder how much business they'll lose because of this?)

Karuuna

Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 02:07 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Ryn - I'm sure that in some areas there are deals to be had. But it used to be that you could get that excellent fare, even if you arranged your flight only a week or two before going. Now to get decent fares, you have to arrange your flight months before, and make sure you include a Saturday night stay. :)

They've always gouged business travellers, or people who fly at the last minute. But now if I try to book a flight to NY (where I go frequently on business) less than 2 weeks ahead, and not including a Saturday night stay, the fare is around $1400. I've been doing business travel for about 16 years, and it's never been that outrageous.

And remember the days when you could actually exchange or return an airline ticket without penalty? Now almost everything sold is nonrefundable; or they charge you $50 to $100 to change your flights, AND you almost always have to pay an increased fare.

And most airlines have done away with paying a commission to travel agents. So now you have to pay it on top of the fare.

It all adds up....and I don't think the sum is attractive.

Juju2bigdog

Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 02:26 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Karuuna, the airline that removed the seats is American. I am also your height, most of which is legs, and have a hard time fitting in the seats from back to front, rather than side to side. Usually I am in mortal fear that the person in front of me will recline their seat, and they usually do, FOR THE ENTIRE flight. Flying American really does make a difference. I actually crossed my legs!

On a lighter note, here is one of my flying stories. I was flying somewhere or other, and ended up with a very large man in the middle seat next to my aisle seat. When most everybody had boarded, he very kindly moved to a vacant seat. Then they started loading the standby passengers. Here comes a man who is TWICE the size as the one who left and sits down next to me. Not only that, he had a BABY! I seem to recall moving over and giving him the aisle seat. At any rate, I thought this was going to be the flight from pure living hell, and it turned out not to be. When the man sat down, his huge belly turned into a platform he put the baby on, and he played quietly with the baby the entire way, and the baby did not cry a bit, or even throw up on me or poop his pants or anything! They turned out to be quite charming.

Another pointer for Karuuna and other tall, able-bodied people. Check in as early as possible for the flight and inquire whether or not there are any emergency row seats. These have extra legroom. I almost always when asking, explain that I am requesting because of my long legs. Occasionally, especially when I have been dressed up for business, this ploy has gotten me a complimentary upgrade to business class.

Jujuairwarriordawg

Karuuna

Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 02:29 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Check in early????? ROFLMBO! Like that would ever happen... hehehe...


It is a good idea, Juju, if I was actually ever early for anything. But, well, that's another thread..

Another good thing about those emergency row seats is the seats in front of them can't be reclined. I'm stretching out my legs in relief just thinking about it!

Llkoolaid

Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 02:50 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Grrrrrr, Julieboo, I went back and read the Rosie Thread. Totally discusting.

Too bad it is still socially acceptable to be prejudiced to people of size.

So glad to see that most of the posters in the Rosie thread were as appalled by the comments as I was.

I am biting my tongue trying to keep myself from retaliating, but since I prefer to be the BIGGER person I will restrain myself with a big seat belt extender.

Julieboo

Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 03:11 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Good idea LL! I was happy to see all the other posters we appalled too.

I gotta run, so you'll have to hold the fort in the riddles....

Donut

Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 03:47 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
i wanted to instantly complement Rissa for her wonderful writing on the subject, but then everyone who followed has been eloquent. Didnt expect this thread to be such good reading
i do have more negative memories of perfume and flailing arms than being impinged on from the hip area, but i must say that your stories have inspired me to be happy that i have developed a flying phobia.... maybe i will not try to work on it....

Sia

Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 04:31 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Julieboo, do you mean "the other posters we appalled" or "the other posters to whom we appealed?" LOL, Julie. You made me smile tonight!