"Plus-size" passengers pay premium
The ClubHouse: Archives: "Plus-size" passengers pay premium
Max | Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 04:33 pm     I appreciate all this discussion very much. Here's my perspective. I travel occasionally on business as well as for pleasure. Despite everything any airline's ad campaign tells you, there is no such thing as being "comfortable" in a coach class airline seat. I've been comfortable in first class, relaxed in business class, and spoiled rotten in transcontinental first class on British Air (I think the only airline with better service is probably Singapore Air and I've never flown them). But I have never been comfortable in coach, even when the flight is virtually empty. Yes, I'm above-average in size. How much has varied over the years. I'm also tall, which doesn't help matters at all. As others have said, leg room is always a problem when you're tall. I live in fear of the person in front of me putting the seat back, something I never do 'cause I don't want to inflict that on anyone else. The absolute worst offenders in regards to taking up space on airplanes are men traveling on business. Now, in general, men are not socialized to worry about how much space they occupy. In fact, they are much more prone to take up as much space as possible as a sort of territorial statement. I'm not making a judgement about that, it's just the way Americans are socialized. And, yes, there are always exceptions. Women, on the other hand, are always made conscious of how they look, how much space they occupy, how much noise they are making, etc. I always take a window seat (for the same reasons some of you cited, plus I like to look at the landscape). I've had guys sit in the middle, promptly spread their legs as wide as possible into my space, put both their arms on the armrests such that they are poking me in the side, then wrestle their big, overstuffed briefcase around on the floor to get out their computer. The rest of the flight, they are juggling paperwork, typing on the keyboard (don't get me started on how much company confidential information I've been able to read on flights!), and generally spreading themselves all over everything and everyone around them. Such creatures seemingly have no idea that anyone else is present on the plane. I've also had the joy of some strange guy spreading out in similar fashion sans computer, then falling asleep, ultimately with his head on my shoulder. Someone mentioned kids. I agree -- don't get me started! Actually, it's not the kids who are the problem, it's their parents. A child kicking the seat in front of him/her for an entire flight is NOT "cute" behaviour. I've had parents get extremely angry with me because I asked the kid to stop kicking the seat. Let's charge all THESE folks extra! Maybe we can create a new class for them on the airplane so they can all disrupt each other's travels. Hey, let's put the incessant small-talk folks back there, too. I really hate it when I'm trying to read or just relax and some stranger sits down next to me and wants to chat. I've only flown on Southwest a couple of times. Now I'll make a point not to. I think large people are much more conscious of how much room they need than Southwest Airlines is giving them credit for. I have known some VERY large people who, when they fly, automatically purchase two seats so they will have room. They are aware that it won't work any other way for them and make accommodations. I don't know how it computes, but what size clothing would you be wearing if your butt fit neatly into an 18-3/4" seat? I don't consider a size 14 to be excessive, but QVC lists the hip measurement for their size 14 as 41-1/2". Would someone with that hip measurement fit in Southwest Airlines' seats? Enquiring minds want to know. |
Julieboo | Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 05:10 pm     I meant...the others WERE appalled! (oops!) (Made myself laugh at that one! Whoops!) |
Faerygdds | Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 05:20 pm     OK... I can speak with a little bit of clarity on the issue. I live in Dallas and most of my extended family is in San Antonio, so I fly SW a LOT! The seats are small because frnkly the flights are short and comfort is really not the issue. Anyone can survive anythng (cramped space) for an hour. When I was a teenager and was 116 lbs I remember being cramped. Last year I flew SW again for the first time in about 10 years. I was NOT comfortable. Of course... I DO have back issues and am now a person "of size". Whoever said that overweight ppl don't choose to be that way is SO correct. My family is plagued with thyroid problems which really contribute to our larger sizes. Couple that with my back problem (I can't PHYSICALLY do much exercise) and I am doomed to be above 175 for the rest of my life. Now.... consider that at the time of the car wreck I was 170 at 5'3", and now I am 3 inches shorter and about 15 lbs heavier.... Bottom line... it's a tight fit... and not one that I choose. BELIEVE me! I used to be an aerobic JUNKIE. At 175 lbs I wore a size 14 in my skirts and pants, and a 18-20 on my tops (I am very top heavy... was at 116 as well) In other words... even though I weighed 175... I could lift more than most men and leg press more than most men. I used to really impress some of the big boys at the gym who thought I was just this chunky little weakling... then they see me lift and... in the infamous words of one DALLAS COWBOY, "What are you hiding under that outfit?" No one chooses to be overwieght... sometimes it is just our natural body shape/physiology, or by circumstance. But because I got into a car wreck and my whole life got turned upside down... NOW I have to pay for two airline seats??? Oh yeah... THAT'S fair! NOT!!!!!!!!!!!! All I can say is this... as a disabled person in America I have to ask... How many times in my life am I going to punished for being the PASSENGER of a truck that was hit by a 16 yr old who got his license for 2 weeks before plowing into our truck?????? nuff said... sorry for the rant.. it's just upsetting to think that some people can be so OBTUSE! |
Oregonfire | Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 05:32 pm     This is such a sucky issue for many people. I like many of the points Karuuna made on the subject. I let plane ticket expire rather than pay the $100 rescheduling fee. What a rip off! Most passengers are already treated like cattle with a credit card in those tiny seats--so uncomfortable for just about anyone. And since the 9-11-induced airpline recession, it's only going to get worse. I'm so glad I got the traveling bug out of my system in my 20s. Ugh. |
Webkitty | Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 05:49 pm     I've only flown in first class one time, what a difference! I agree with everyone that flying in coach is just miserable all around. I think the problem is there, not the size of a person. Its just too crowded for ANYONE to be comfortable. I'm not a large person, and I get off the flight feeling cramped and sore and weary. You can't get up and go the restroom just any time you want to, the flight attendants give you a hard time when they are trying to wheel those carts up and down the aisle. Ack! The airlines should just take out every other row and forget the food, its awful anyway, I never eat it. I haven't had to fly for business reasons for years and years, and I'm glad. I empathize with everyone who does, small or large or anywhere in between. The last time I flew for "pleasure" (ha!) was two years ago and it was a nightmear, I can imagine what it must be like now, especially after 9/11. I'm not anxious to get on a plane again. Its kind of sad, because I do like to travel and see new places, but we'll stick with the car for now until things get sorted out. (I know, keep dreaming!) |
Sia | Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 06:23 pm     Okay, now that we've all commiserated about how excessively overweight and/or grotesquely tall we are, let me tell you something that will make you laugh: my son begged me not to get out of the tub the other day because he and his sister weren't done playing yet. When I protested and said I was done with my bath, I asked why he wanted me to stay. His answer? "Because, Mom, when you're in the tub with us, the water's really, really deep!!!" Out of the mouths of babes, huh? |
Hippyt | Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 06:27 pm     I agree with what everyone says,and I'll take it a bit farther. It isn't the size of the people on the airplanes that is the problem. It's the greedy airlines,stuffing people into airplanes like sardines,so they can can make more money. Now I understand the airlines have been hurt by 9/11,but this sort of thing was a problem WAAAY before then. I remember a flight I took from Florida to Texas with my in-laws,what hell! I was 5 months pregnant,and my stomach was maybe 2 inches from the back of the seat in front of me. I'm a thin person too. My father in law is over 6 feet,he was folded up like a cheap suit,with his feet in the aisle. I must say,maybe a couple of airlines will try this,but it won't work. Other,smarter airlines won't do it,and it will only result in a lose of business to airlines who are stupid enough to try it. Disgusting idea,sad,really! |
Mamaanja | Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 07:40 pm     I have to speak up for parents traveling with children. We had the flight from Heck with our first son when he was almost two. It was an evening flight from Phoenix to Kansas City. We thought he would fall right asleep. Well......he didn't. He screamed. He kicked the seat in front of him. He screamed more. We tried everything we could think of. I nursed him SEVERAL times but he would not fall asleep. We got so many dirty looks and rude comments. But, geez, what were we supposed to do? With his car seat in the seat, his feet were about 5 inches from the seat in front of him, so DUH of course he was going to kick it or mess with it. It was right in his lap! When we held his feet down to keep them still, he screamed. You can not reason with an almost two year old! My husband walked him up and down the aisle, which did calm him down, but you can't walk up and down the aisle the whole flight! We tried everything short of beating him or drugging him. (neither of which we were willing to do, even though people behind us suggested it) I guess the point I would like you all to understand is this: the parents are probably trying as hard as they can to prevent their children from annoying you. But it is unreasonable to expect a toddler to remain silent and still for a flight of any length. Belive me, I would love it if they would put us in a little sound proof compartment, so I wouldn't have the stress of worrying about the other passengers on top of my normal fear of flying. |
Mamaanja | Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 07:43 pm     Oh, and I find airline seats incredibly uncomfortable. I'm slightly above average in height and weight. Fascinating discussion. This is quite an interesting ethical dilemma. |
Donut | Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 07:47 pm     hippyt just mentioned pregnancy.. do pregnant woman have to pay for 2 seats too,if they need a seatbelt extension??? i think the airline is gonna lose more money in lawsuits trying to enforce this, than they will make in extra seat sales... |
Max | Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 08:18 pm     Mamaanja, I totally empathize with you about travel with a toddler. I'm much more tolerant of toddlers because, as you said, you can't reason with them. The kids I've had problems are older, probably 6-ish, and could definitely be taught to behave. They simply had parents who chose to treat them as if everything they did in life, no matter how rude, was precious beyond compare. Donut, I wondered about the pregnancy issue, too. Interesting. Still wondering what size clothing a person wears who fits easily into 18-3/4" wide seats. Having "listened" to so many viewpoints, I think I'mready to drop a line to Southwest Airlines customer service department now. Southwest Airlines Customer Relations P.O. Box 36647 - 1CR Dallas, Texas 75235-1647 They don't accept email. Here's what the website says (emphasis added): "Why We Don't Accept E-Mail "Call us traditional, but we elect to steer clear of the chat-style, respond-on-demand, quick casual format and focus on meaningful Customer dialogue. This is not because we don't care. It's because that style counters our 30 plus year commitment to Customer Service. "Our Customers deserve accurate, specific, personal, and professionally written answers, and it takes time to research, investigate, and compose a real business letter. We answer every letter we receive in the order it arrives, and we streamline in order to keep our costs low, our People productive, our operating efficiency high, and our responses warm and personal." I say, let's see if they mean this and keep 'em busy! Oh, and here's their "official" statement on the rule (emphasis added): "Since 1980, Southwest Airlines has maintained a policy, for purposes of Customer safety and comfort, of requiring a Customer to purchase a second seat if the Customer needs extra space, or if the Customer's girth is larger than one aircraft seat. Below are a few points to help clarify our policy:
- Customers who reserve and purchase a discounted, advance purchase fare will be charged the same fare for the second seat, even if the advance purchase requirements are not met at the time of the second seat purchase. A Customer who is holding an unrestricted walk up fare will be charged the appropriate discounted Child's Fare for the second seat.
- Once travel has been completed, if the flight is not full, the Customer can request a full refund for the second seat by contacting Southwest Airlines' Customer Relations Department.
- This policy was designed to safely accommodate Customers needing extra space.
The policy is intended to promote the safety and comfort of all Customers onboard and to ensure that no Customers are deprived a portion of the space they have purchased." |
Karuuna | Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 08:27 pm     Okay, so can I complain when I don't get an armrest? Cause I've purchased at least one, and if I get stuck in that middle seat, invariably I get none. Somehow I'm always on the losing end of the elbow wars for the armrest territory. Harrumph! |
Sia | Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 08:30 pm     Mamaanja mentioned having a soundproof compartment on the plane, which reminds me of the "cry-room" at a church where I attended a wedding when my son was almost a year old. He was perfect, never made a sound, but I went to the cry-room before the service started, just in case. It was a C of C service (no instrumental music), and the bride's family was singing a cappella and it was recorded, so I didn't want to take any chances. My son wasn't going to be the one to make noise and spoil the wedding and/or the recording!! LOL Anyway, it's the nicest cry-room I've ever been in: huge glass wall so I could see everything, had a speaker system so I could hear the service perfectly, had cribs wall-to-wall like cages! It was carpeted, had a rocking chair, toys, changing table: everything a mother could want!! And ideal view of the wedding. What a concept for an airplane. And movie theatres! Let's get together and form a corporation, okay? |
Schoolmarm | Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 08:47 pm     Ok...in an 18 3/4 inch seat....assume that you are 17 inches "wide" (giving you about an inch on either side) that would be 34 inches if you are 0 inches thin....since a thin person would be at least 6 inches thick add another 12 inches. So a "thin" person fitting into a 17 inch seat would be a minimum of 46 inches around. You could probably easily add another 12 inches (6 inches per side) in "thickness" So at 58 inches around someone would be 17 inches wide and 12 inches "thick" That's almost 5 feet! Just my rough estimate. |
Kaili | Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 08:54 pm     I'm just curious and I didn't read the archive so I don't know if this has been discussed- what id the price difference between buying 2 coach tickets or one first class ticket? |
Max | Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 09:01 pm     Lol, marm! Somehow I don't think a person with a 58" hip measurement is gonna fit in a 17" seat. Methinks you've mixed your girth and your width in the calculations. |
Sia | Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 09:04 pm     Hey, this would be a good problem for the "Riddles" thread! Where's SpongeBob when you need a slide-rule, anyway? LOL |
Juju2bigdog | Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 10:42 pm     We could tell Merlin we need women measured; he'd do it then. |
Bob2112 | Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 11:25 pm     Being a Sponge does have its advantages! I have short legs and arms (as you can see in the picture below) and can pretty much sqeeze myself in the narrowist of seats. I even fit in the overhead compartment, but that was patrick just being silly. I did have a problem one time when I fell asleep on a plane. The person next to me (not saying large or small) also fell asleep and apparently was using me as a pillow (Click Here) (I can be plush and cuddley!). Well, lets just say this person was a bit of a drooler when they sleep. By the time I woke up, my bottom had absorbed so much water that it completely cover my seat belt release. It took 2 hours and several buckets before they were able to sqeeze enough "water" out of me to release the belt. There was some talk about charging me for an extra seat, but once I stuck myself in the overhead compartment (thanks for showing me that, Patrick ) they agreed to refund the price for the seat I was no longer using. Sia, what was the question? Anyway, that's my story. Have you guys seen my Juju costume? I made it for the chess game because I thought the Juju clipart was the neko clipart and I want to fill in for Neko while she's gone. I've since corrected that, but I'm hanging on to this one just in case. Which is the original and which is me? Hard to tell, huh?
Well, us sponges aren't to swift. I posted the wrong picture, but corrected it in the post below. Please do a mental cut and paste, and everything will be "normal" |
Bob2112 | Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 11:28 pm     That was supposed to be Juju, not Neko! Argh!!
Well here's the Neko costume, then  |
Weinermr | Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 11:35 pm     Max, we should all send letters to SW Airlines, crammed into envelopes too small to hold them, and make them pay the extra postage. Maybe then they would get the hint. |
Bob2112 | Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 11:36 pm     We could also send them a sponge.  |
Weinermr | Thursday, June 20, 2002 - 11:39 pm     Bob, you keep mixing up Neju and Juko. You're not absorbing their identities. |
Sia | Friday, June 21, 2002 - 03:34 am     Bob, that's such a great photo of you that you linked above! Has anyone told you that you're just really cute in a David-Letterman sort of way? I'll bet all the other pillows hit on you! (Warning: if you're a pillow and you're filled with kapok, do you realize that it's like being filled with tiny bits of *GULP!* sponge?) |
Mamaanja | Friday, June 21, 2002 - 07:29 am     All right guys. I just sat down on my stairs and measured how much room my butt takes. 19 1/2 inches! No wonder I'm uncomforable on airplanes. Wow. Now, I could truly stand to lose 30 pounds. but a lot of it is my belly. (I've had two children in less than three years...) I'm 5 foot 8 inches, so I'm not a petite woman. I'm just kind of fluffy. Like Wynnona Judd. They just need to make airplanes more comfortable. I was joking about having a sound proof compartment for children, but, hey, why not? The more I think about it the better it sounds. If my son could be in a little room with his train table and Wiggles videos we'd have a great flight! Max, thanks for your comments about toddlers. My husband and I are striving to raise respectful, polite and intelligent children. Hopefully our next flight will be better.... Another horror story: I was on a flight and a young women started to paint her fingernails!!! The smell was awful. I was about to say something to her when the flight attendant told her she had to stop, and explained about fumes, recycled air on an airplane, etc, etc. Duh..... |
Rissa | Friday, June 21, 2002 - 08:11 am     I have 3 kids and flew with them several times when they were younger and I have to add a comment as well. First on their behavior.. my first two were angels. I would mildly starve them <EG> before the flight then depending on their age I would either nurse and they fell asleep or just keep piling in snack after snack in teeny amounts. I also gave them an antihistamine before the flight which made them drowsy (for the record, the antihistamine was to help keep their ears from popping, the drowsiness was just a great side-effect). My third was (and is) a terror. My hubby and I keep joking that she is either going to grow up to be a rocket scientist or an axe murderer, seriously could go either way. LOL She is a great kid but energy is unltd. and she is incredibly curious and talkative. Keeping her quiet was always my first concern, like Max said woman tend to be more concerned about appearances and offending people. Most of the time I succeeded and I can only recall one flight that she upset anyone (besides me) and that was with crying not directly bothering others. I have no qualms at all about blaming the airlines for the kid problem too, seriously!!!!! First of all they tell you that they offer those *cots* that attach to the wall in front of the bulkhead and even reserve one for you and note it on the ticket but when you get to the airline the majority of times they tell you that kids are not ALLOWED in the bulkhead row for safety reasons (They need adults near those doors in case they need to be opened). The bulkhead is the only place those cots fit for babies and that toddlers can sit on the floor and colour or play with toys. So you get stuck in those teeny seats where the kid has to be sucked to your body to even fit and then can still reach out and grab the seat in front with little effort. Anyone have a child that appreciates being body hugged with it's arms held down for hours on end??? If you do, then something is wrong with your kid.... see a doctor quick. RFLOL Second problem? Like I said earlier, I gave my babies an antihistamine and planned for nursing or bottle on takeoff. The sucking stops the ears from building up pressure which can be very painfull for a baby. But I was told over and over again that I could NOT nurse or give a bottle on takeoff for (again) safety reasons, I had to hold them over my shoulder until we reached altitude. You know the one thing that works better then anything in getting RID of plugged ears (for a baby I mean)? Crying !!! High level full blast shreiking. LOL And when you (as a mother) have worked up a panic over your noisy child, developed a permanant guilty look in response to the dirty stares and am sweaty from the physical effort of repeatedly grabbing and restraining your child.. well, you could really use some quick energy in the form of food. Think again!!! Cause there ain't NO WAY that tray is coming down with a child on your lap. No food, no drinks. You get to sit there and watch others eat while your mouth waters and your child tries to grab food from the nearest tray. By the time the plane lands the mothers are in tears more than the kids. And I haven't even mentioned the absolute joy of trying to undo your pants and get them down around your ankles with one hand while the other arm is holding your squirming bundle of joy in the washrooms. If the airlines don't want to provide anything approaching an adequate seat for mothers and babies then they shouldn't allow babies to share seats. At the time my kids were small you had to pay a regular 2nd fare for a second seat. Heard rumours that that had changed but don't know for sure and it doesn't matter anymore because I now have two teenagers who glare at other mothers with loud babies and a 6 year old who wants to "borrow" anyone smaller then she. (LOL She seriously goes up to mother's and says "Could I borrow your baby for a little?") I have never minded the loud babies on flights because I have been there. I just feel immense sympathy for the mom. PS I am reading this over and realize I have neglected dad's but I was always flying alone to visit family with the three kids in tow so that's my perspective. |
Sia | Friday, June 21, 2002 - 03:05 pm     Mamaanja, a manicure is bad enough on a plane, but can you imagine the looks that woman would've gotten had she whipped her foot up onto the "seat-back tray-table" and begun a pedicure?!?!?! ROTFL! Rissa, you're a wonderful storyteller. I hope you have other similar tales in other threads; I'm going to start looking for your posts because I found your post very entertaining. |
Mamaanja | Saturday, June 22, 2002 - 06:36 pm     By the way, I have a picture of my Angel boy that screamed from Phoenix to KC. Just click on my profile! (It's sideways, I couldn't figure out how to turn it....) |
Sia | Saturday, June 22, 2002 - 09:06 pm     MamaAnja, what a sweetheart he is! He doesn't LOOK like a child who would scream for the entire duration of a plane flight! |
Seamonkey | Saturday, June 22, 2002 - 09:40 pm     What a cutie!! |
Riviere | Saturday, June 22, 2002 - 09:51 pm     Talk about stupidity in seating passengers! My hubby is a big guy (6'4" 220 the Tom Selleck build type) and he flies so much he knows all the exits & safety drills by heart. One flight we took, saw a small woman with an infant & son about age 3 were seated at the mid wing exit, to give her room to fuss with her kids, our seats behind them. Mark politely asked her to swap with us and she got real nasty, so he called an attendant over and asked what she thought of that peculiar seating arrangement? After a couple of minutes the young mother was begging to swap and didn't want the responsibility of wrestling the exit door open in 2.2 seconds when my hubby was bigger and more capable of saving 140 passengers including her darling children.. Turned out an uneventful flight and her kids slept the whole way anyhow! |
Mamaanja | Sunday, June 23, 2002 - 01:44 pm     Thank you. He really is a sweetheart. |
Sia | Sunday, June 23, 2002 - 10:41 pm     I want to post a pic of my kids, too, but can't remember how. I've followed the directions, but it keeps screwing up. I just give up!! |
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