Archive through May 22, 2002
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The ClubHouse: Archives: No Children: Archive through May 22, 2002

Wargod

Tuesday, May 21, 2002 - 11:20 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I love my kids, couldn't imagine my life without them. I think if a woman choses to have children or not that is her decision and I have no right to question it or force my opinions on her. You have the right to do was is best for you.

I do have to admit to a certain bragging about my kids....but thats just because I'm so proud of them most the time. I try not to annoy people, but know that on occassions I probably do.

Kstme

Wednesday, May 22, 2002 - 07:18 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I have found, with my friends who don't have children, have animals and treat them almost as children. Instead of little Johnny in their wallet, they have little Rover. Some of us with grown children now have animals that seem to take their place. (yeah, I'm guilty of the animal thing and my daughter still lives at home)

A dear friend of mine and I, both of us have new puppies and grown children, will sit over coffee and talk for hours about our DOGS! NOT about her grandchildren or our children! LOL

War...I don't think you bragged too much about your children. They are adorable and you should be proud!!!

Julieboo

Wednesday, May 22, 2002 - 08:17 am EditMoveDeleteIP
>>We've gotten rights for women with children <<

Mssil--What rights are you talking about? The only one I can think of is the FMLA. And all that is is 12 weeks unpaid off from work after the birth of a child (it is also if you have a sick parent, spouse.)

Karuuna

Wednesday, May 22, 2002 - 08:26 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I think if you want people to be understanding about your decision to not have children, it might be helpful to be more gracious about their decision to have children.

I see a lot of negativity going both ways, I'm just saying....

Personally, I think it's fine to not have children. I don't think you should have to feel defensive or to explain yourself. It's up to you how to live your life. Children or not, career or not, whatever. In fact, I think it takes a strong and mature person to buck the cultural tide, and decide not to have children, just cause it's "the thing to do." I've never quite understood the compulsion some folks have that drives them to tell others how to live their lives. I have enough trouble figuring out how to manage my own, let alone anyone else's!

I wasn't ready for children until my mid-thirties, so I'm an "older" mom. And unfortunately, having waited that late, I was only able to have one child (that survived). However, I don't see any of my friends using their kids to extend their own lives in some selfish way. What I see is people making tremendous sacrifices of their own free time, and things they might like to do otherwise, in order to be good parents and be there for their kids. I see them buying things for their children, instead of themselves. I see them going to endless activities, children's parties and play dates. I see them sacrificing sleep to sit with a sick child, suffering with a child who has been teased at school, worrying themselves sick over the safety (or lack thereof) in our public schools today. I think it is a tremendously *unselfish* act to be a good parent.

So, we see things differently. But again, I tremendously respect and honor those of you who have decided not to have children. I hope you can find it in your own hearts to respect and honor those of us who are parents as well.

Julieboo

Wednesday, May 22, 2002 - 08:36 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Karuuna
That was a GREAT post.

Mssilhouette

Wednesday, May 22, 2002 - 09:13 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I think the tone of negativity is basically furstration being voiced. I'm more ranting than anything else. Now if it seemed as if I was bashing women with children, I wasn't.

I don't think I wrote anything that disrespected those who had children I also never said anything really that bad about women with children.

I just didn't add a disclaimer to my post to balance my venting. I didn't think that I needed to considering the topic.

To be completely honest, I think those who are parents know what kind of job you do and how difficult it is. You don't need me to tell you that for validiation.

I thought this was a forum to discuss intelligently with those of us who had a decision to not have children with those who have kids.

Yes I do have a strong opinion on it and some have posted a stronger opinions. What I'm attacking is society's view on women who don't have children vs those who do. I'm also getting on some parents who may have the habit of forgetting that not everyone wants to hear about their kids.

If that's being negative then that's what it has to be. I also don't believe I should be subjected to different treatment at assumptions at work because I don't have children or any odd looks because I've made that decision.

Now I probably overstated the rights of women with children and should change it to "considerations" which is different.

I don't want this thread to breakdown into a "I respect you and you respect me" thread because I think as intelligent adults in an intelligent discussion we have that as a given.

I also don't want those with children to feel as I've put a ban on talking about their kids, because I haven't. I just gave my viewpoint on it, but you can do as you like.

I like reading differing opinions and I think we have plenty but I'd like to read more from those who are on the fence who don't know if they will or won't because I think their are plenty of those women who we should hear from.

Julieboo

Wednesday, May 22, 2002 - 09:26 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Mssil
I am still confused by >>Now I probably overstated the rights of women with children and should change it to "considerations" which is different.<<

What is "considerations"?

(BTW i'm just curious, and not trying to be confrontational)

I've been on both sides. I worked for well over ten years without kids. I've been working for about 2 years, with a kid. I really didn't see too many moms get away with much when I was a non-mom. Where i worked, they didn't get any more "consideration" than those without kids. The only difference is they may have called in sick more due to kid stuff. But then they used (or wasted) their personal or vacation days and that was their loss.

Karuuna

Wednesday, May 22, 2002 - 09:43 am EditMoveDeleteIP
MisSil - I'm not asking for validation, I'm just asking not to be dissed for deciding to be a parent, and taking pride and enjoyment in it.

Guess that's kind of the same thing that those who don't want to be parents are looking for. The freedom and respect to make their own decisions and not be put down for them. And quite frankly, y'all have that from me. I think it's ridiculous for anyone to tell you what you should feel and do; or to attack you or look at you in some strange way because you think and feel differently than they do.

But I did see this thread starting to take an ugly turn, and that was one of denigrating those who have chosen to be parents. I hope as you stated, that this is a place for folks to "discuss intelligently". But I saw from some posts above, that those of us who are parents were being told how we feel, that we're glad when our kids leave home, that we are selfish, etc, etc, etc. So I felt compelled to state a different view. I think that was discussing intelligently.

It's just my opinion, but I think everyone should feel free to respond - whether they're on the fence, have chosen to be a parent and like it, have chosen to be a parent and have some regrets about it, have chosen not to be parents and are happy with that choice, have chosen not to be and have regrets, and on and on.

I'm happy to listen to those with differing opinions. And I don't think there's anything wrong with an "I respect you, you respect me" attitude. But I don't think I'm willing to ignore it when someone calls me ugly and selfish for the decisions I've made. Guess that's probably as frustrating to me as it is to someone who has decided not to have children.

Julieboo

Wednesday, May 22, 2002 - 09:58 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Yikes, I just re-read this
>>It is my belief that having children is a selfish act. It is simply a way to clone yourself and create your own personal slave/punching bag. In the first few years it's all about goo goo gaa gaa stuff and isn't she/he precious, but then it turns to "I can't wait until he/she turns 18 and I can have my life back". Basically, parents want to re-live their youth through their children and form them into the people that they wanted to become. <<

My decision to have a baby was not to clone myself. Not to have a personal slave. Not to have a punching bag. Not all parents are child abusers. And I'm currently in the first few years and believe me--it is NOT "goo-goo-gaa-gaa". It is hard work. It is a labor of love.

Weinermr

Wednesday, May 22, 2002 - 10:01 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I’ve been married for 21+ years – we have no children, and we never will. It has never really been an option for us. My wife has had various health issues throughout her life, and we always felt the physical act of getting pregnant would be too much for her – would even be dangerous and possibly kill her. Besides that, she didn’t really want to have children in any case. It simply was not something she wanted for herself. Over the years I was OK with that. Sometimes I would fantasize about what it would be like to have a child, but it never became a burning desire, nor something that became important enough for me that I felt we needed to do something about it. Adoption was never really a consideration either.

So I am resigned to the fact that I will not have children, and all in all I can live with the decision. But there are times when I do wonder what it would be like – and I do become a bit sad when I realize the experiences I will never have. I wonder what my life would have been like. I don't condemn anyone for the choice of not having children, and I am happy for those whose children are a source of love and joy in their lives.

Twiggyish

Wednesday, May 22, 2002 - 12:34 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
It is a choice. I don't see it as cloning myself either. My child is very much an individual. She is the joy of our life.

I don't know if the posts against having children were meant to be negative. But, I don't view people who make the no children choice as wrong. There aren't any answers. We all follow our own paths.

Mssilhouette

Wednesday, May 22, 2002 - 02:41 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Outside of the pregancy period and the calling in sick for kids. I define some considerations as: Bring you child to work day, the selling of school candy and other various school sponsored merchandise at work. The company functions that are turn into "family" functions. The workplace has become more "family" friendly than before which can sometimes means that those without children are exactly factored into those considerations.

I don't want it to be a matter of those without children against those with. I think someone posted a very strong opinion and that may have sparked some comments but that's that person's opinion.

I'm glad to hear that everyone views personal choices as just that.

Julieboo

Wednesday, May 22, 2002 - 02:49 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Well, for me, I never brought my child to work, (no way would I be able to get anything done) and no way would my company just let me bring him and not work. Actually not many people here bring their kids on that day. And as for selling the candy, "just say no". (I think that is stretching the "injustice" or "consideration" a little.) And our company functions are strictly employees only. (that of course is a whole other story) Lots of employees get plenty upset about that, but if a company function is going to promote good teamwork, etc. then breaking people up into their "family sectors" goes against the point. But I hardly call that something that is "against" singles. Don't go to the function if ya don't like it.

Jewels

Wednesday, May 22, 2002 - 03:47 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
You know, I was going to respond to Gadzook's post...I don't even know where to start. As a parent, I am completely offended and appalled to think that I am trying to raise a loving, decent, caring human being and there are people out there who think I am being selfish and just trying to relive my childhood, among other things. (A punching bag?) Unbelievable.

MisSil...thank you for your intelligent posts. I have never thought about alot of your points from your perspective. I knew I always wanted kids even when I was single, it never occurred to me how others must be treated if they don't have or want kids.

As far as bragging or talking to much about kids goes...tough. I don't always like to hear about peoples' animals, or jobs, or cars, or vacations, or whatever, either...it's just a way of life.

Spygirl

Wednesday, May 22, 2002 - 04:13 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Well....being in my field of work, I have actually seen people exactly like Gadzooks posted about. It is sad, guys, but true. I know that isn't representative of all parents, but I've seen it -- waaaaaaaaaayyyy too much. And I've not seen it only in a clinical population either. I have a friend who is doing the "cloning" and "living vicariously" through her daughter. From the outside, it clearly seems that she has had children to meet her own needs. The daughter is doing all of the things that her mom never got to do and is being forced into activities I do not think the daughter would ever have been interested in on her own.

I have heard it said many times (by parents) that having children is a somewhat selfish thing. It is someone you can take care of and who by all accounts is required to give you love. On the otherhand, I've also heard that not having children is selfish because people do not give enough of themselves and their time up to provide for another human.

Do I want to have children? I have absolutely no idea. I know that I do not like children very much right now and haven't for many many years. I babysat as a teen like most people do, but I never enjoyed it. Maybe it isn't for me, I don't know. I do know that I also get those strange looks when I say I'm not sure. Heck, I get strange looks and comments when people find out I'm not married and yet I'm a marriage and family therapist. Such as life. I won't succumb to what society says I need to be happy and fulfilled.

Besides, everyone knows that money is the root of all happiness....right?

Car54

Wednesday, May 22, 2002 - 04:28 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I am one of those children Gadzooks posted about.
I was born to make my parent's marraige work...and a lot of other wrong reasons. I come from 2 very disfunctional families.

I love children, but have chosen not to have them. I honestly think with all the baggage and history I carry from a very difficult childhood, I can't think I would be able to raise a child, and I would never want to do to another what was done to me.

It is interesting...I grew up with 5 cousins. Out of all of us, only one of us chose to have children.

I call us the end of a bad gene pool.
Hell, I made my dog neurotic.:)

As a working woman, I work in a company where the employees are probably 95% women, and one thing that can cause bad feelings or feelings of inequity is when a woman chooses to have a child, takes leave and expects things to be the same when they return.

We almost always have someone on maternity leave and many times the person leaves...somehow those who are not on leave pick up the slack while she is away..we have to continue to get the work done (almost NEVER is someone extra hired to fill in) and then when they return, work has been re-distributed, things continued, and a lot of times they have trouble accepting that they made a choice to take time off and things HAD to change while they were away.

The issues I mean are not about money or status, but more about one's "role" or postion. They are never penalized financially for taking time, the job is there, but things have to change, and this happens all the time that they return and expect things to go back to exactly the way they were.

I am sure this doesn't happen everywhere, but I have experienced it a lot. I am the one who takes on extra, who fills in, who makes a plan, and then when the person returns, they are frustrated because their place is not exactly as they left it.

Karuuna

Wednesday, May 22, 2002 - 05:30 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Spy - I have no doubt *some* parents are like that. I've kicked a few in the shins at my son's soccer games. Purely accidentally of course.

However, I didn't choose to come to this thread and say that folks who don't want children are selfish, immature, self-centered, egotistical wretches who couldn't possibly make the sacrifices or be capable of the sensitivity or compassion necessary to be a good parent. But I'm absolutely sure that some folks who choose not to have children are exactly that way. (and thank goodness they don't have children!)

My point is, that there are severely emotionally handicapped people who choose to have children. There are also severely emotionally handicapped people who choose not have to children.

And there are mentally healthy, well-balanced, mature folks who have well-thought-out, legitimate reasons for making either choice as well.

It was my naive hope that we could have a discussion about the latter, without acting as if the former were the "typical" case. (I've heard that word before!) In fact, I still think that's possible.

In the case of employment inequities, I think the fault lies with the employers, not so much the employees. They ought to hire someone to fill in if someone is going to be out for a prolonged period -- for maternity leave, personal health issues, or any other reason. To dump on the other employees is cheap and unfair. I don't do that in my company, and I've had people out for a long period of time, in ways that were difficult to deal with. Because we care about them, and want them back, we accommodate them. But I also hire temps to fill in, so no one else is overburdened. And if someone is upset about their job changing while they were gone, then it's MY job to help them deal with that.

So, it's not the new parents who are at fault. The blame there lies in company policy-setting, and poor management.

Spygirl

Wednesday, May 22, 2002 - 06:41 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I really hope this discussion isn't going to die just because it is intense.

I was just talking with someone about this thread and we had a very interesting conversation about the heated feelings that have come out of a mere 42 posts. I now suspect that many people are avoiding this thread b/c of it I think that is sad. We have a very interesting topic here, made even more interesting because it is clearly something that means a lot to a lot of people.

Maybe we can remember that we aren't here to change anyone's opinions, but are simply trying to express our own views -- even if they are completely opposite of what we believe.

Why do you guys think this thread sparked such high intensity responses so quickly? I'm still wanting to hear from more older moms or people who decided against children because I feel I may fall in either category. At 27 without a serious relationship, I'm not thinking I'll be a "young" mom.

Just curious.

And Kar...watch that shin-kicking!! It may be confused with sh*t kicking that we do in Texas....hehehehe

Karuuna

Wednesday, May 22, 2002 - 07:18 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
well, Spy, I'm an "older mom". Waited till I was 35 to start trying, and then had to go the whole fertility route. What a trial that was! But it was worthwhile.

I'm glad I waited. Like Car, I grew up in an extremely dysfunctional family, and I know if I had children earlier in my life, they would have been a mess. I have so much more patience, and understanding now. And financially I'm in a place where I don't have to worry about taking time off to hang out at every school and after-school activity.

The only drawback I see to being an older mom is that I'm not quite as energetic as I was in my late 20's. So I have to be really conscientious about staying health and in shape to keep up with my extremely active almost-8-year-old.

Twiggyish

Wednesday, May 22, 2002 - 07:38 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
A good question.. In every life, there are certain milestones we are suppose to reach or achieve. One milestone was marriage, the next milestone had to do with children..etc. In the past, we were suppose to marry and have children. A woman who didn't marry by a certain age was an old maid and all couples were suppose to have children. In this day and age, men and women have choices. They no longer have to conform to the old rules. When someone makes the decision to not have a child, it goes against old standards. Plus, it can mean a part of you will not continue after you die. (I agree this reason isn't a good one for having a child)
For some women it is a very emotional and difficult decision to make because it comes with the realization of never being a mother.
Kar, I'm an "older" mom, too. =) She keeps me young! I notice a lot of the mom's in her class are my age. (I was 33 when mine was born)

Angelnikki

Wednesday, May 22, 2002 - 08:10 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
well i wasnt going to post in here because i felt weird. first of all, i would say that i fit into both catagories of the topic at hand. i grew up never liking children, in fact i disliked children very much and said i would never never have any. i wasnt the person you would ask to babysit because i couldnt stand to do it. i am the oldest child of four and in some ways i feel that i helped raise my bro and sisters and maybe thats why i didnt like kids. when i was in my 20's i met a man that ended up being my first love and needless to say, we werent very careful like we should have been. i cryed for days when i found out i was pregnant but i didnt want to and couldnt have an abortion so i decided, well, this is my life:(. 9 months later i came to find out that there is noone in this world that i could ever ever love with all my heart and soul than i do my son Nicholas. i dont want to think of what my life would be without him. i never ever think back and say, what if?? i am no longer with his father but he is somewhat a part of his life. i give props to all the mothers out there but i will never and have never thought any less of women who decide not to have children. its a personal decision and thats it.
:) thanks for letting me share my opinion, thats what i love about this board!!!!!

Kaili

Wednesday, May 22, 2002 - 08:44 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I'm going to go a bit off topic here and just babble away for awhile on whatever pops into my head and down to my fingers...I am 24 years old- just finishing up college etc. I love kids (I'm going to be a teacher so you gotta hope I do!)- and want kids, or more specifically a kid or two- but at the same time I totally fear the idea. I have sat in my living room trying to imagine a little person running around, having to gather up kid stuff and child everytime I want to run to the gas station or whatever- I don't want that now. Maybe it is selfish in a way, but at the same time I think it's the right choice because if that's how I feel then I obviously am not ready to have a kid. I'm young- I don't want kids until my late 20s to early 30s so I am more settled. Then I think, well I'll be new to my job and will I want to be a young pregnant teacher? If it doesn't happen then it wasn't meant to be.

I have one big fear (besides the actual birth)- although I would love to have a kid someday, I am terrified that it would be born and I would feel nothing for it- no attachment...nothing.

This really doesn't have a huge place here since I'm not really adding to the debate and not discussing a decision I made already (rather the decision I plan on making). I understand those who don't want kids- I've never really been around babies, I'm not totally comfortable around them, and I'm not a goochie-goochie kind of person (just not in my personality at all!).

I go back and forth-
yes I want one/them- I love them and would love to raise a young person thinking of all the changes they go through, watch them grow up and become adults, hopefully they would make a difference in the world for the better, etc I have a great relationship with my own parents and would love for them to be able to influence my child they way they did with me- they're the best
no I don't- I want to have a job and not have to worry about my child being hurt, what if I had a child with a disability- how would I afford taking care of the child, working, etc- what if I don't love the child, etc.

maybe these are just normal fears? Parents out there, what do you think?

Angelnikki

Wednesday, May 22, 2002 - 08:59 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
i can understand completely.
however, its hard to imagine having a child and not feeling any attachment what so ever, to me that almost seems impossible. but then again, i only have one child and i dont know if anyone has ever felt that way?
has anyone here ever felt that way??

Gadzooks

Wednesday, May 22, 2002 - 09:25 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
This topic has become very interesting. I enjoy reading every point of view and now I would like to throw a few questions out there.

I want to know what men have to say about "the no children" issue. Do you think any less of a woman who is determined not to have children? Is she marriage material or simply a freak of nature to you? Also, to those men out there who have children....do you really implicate yourselves in their lives or do you let "the wife" take care of things? Now that you have children do you wish for a child free life?

I know an awful lot of ladies out there who do all of the childrearing. The diapers, the feedings, the medical appointments, the homework, etc....and the men get off on a free pass. Sit there enjoying their ball games and tinkering with their latest electronic gadgets. If the mothers behaved that way they would be charged for child endangerment.

Why is it that so many men lose interest in their children? They stray so quickly. They would rather spend countless hours at the office eyeing the hot chicky assistant. Honestly, the amount of single mother's raising kids is depressing. It's almost a miracle if a relationship lasts these days. And then you wonder why I don't want children....hmmmmm.

Kstme

Wednesday, May 22, 2002 - 10:48 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
My dh was a "stay-at-home" Dad for one year. TheKid was in the second grade and he was awsome! It also helped that her teacher was a male and it was the first time he'd had a "Room Dad!" LOL Both my DH and I took an active role in TheKid's growing up. I was the Field Trip Mom and usually took on the "holy terrors"...for some reason I got along with them! My dh had two children from his first marriage and we had them every other weekend until they were well into their teens! We took custody of his son when he was 17 and he stayed with us until he graduated from high school. My dh has NEVER been a Dad who's lost interest in his kids NOR had he ever not paid support!!

It's odd...TheKid, at 25, does not want children. Never has. She loves animals, but isn't into children. She will NOT date a man who has children either. (I think this comes from a sometimes rocky relationship with her half-siblings and their mom) These are her choices which I respect. We've talked about them a lot. I also think she feels secure with her decision because we have a number of friends who chose not to have children, which was unusual 20+ years ago.