Dear Abbey...

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Archive through March 23, 2002 25   03/23 07:05pm

Babyruth

Saturday, March 23, 2002 - 07:16 pm Click here to edit this post
Logan, I disagree. Expressing concern for the safety of children is never the wrong thing to do.
Placing a call to CPS to report a potentially dangerous situation is neither invading privacy nor defaming character.
Good for Jewels for having the guts to speak up on behalf of the kids!

Sage

Saturday, March 23, 2002 - 07:32 pm Click here to edit this post
I just have to agree with Babyruth on that too. Its for the children. Better to be safe than sorry. Jewels, you need to do what is in your heart. I think you know what that is. If I was in the same kind of situation you are in, Jewels, I would make that call.

Spygirl

Saturday, March 23, 2002 - 07:36 pm Click here to edit this post
Actually Logan, this idea of defamation of character is misunderstood in terms of abuse reporting. I'm glad you bring it up because it gives me the opportunity to clear up another common misunderstanding.

There is something called immunity for child and spouse abuse reporters. Immunity is provided for anyone who reports abuse in good faith. They are excluded from any civil and criminal liability. So, you cannot be sued for making a report in good faith -- i.e. with reasonable cause to suspect, which is what I've been talking about. If you have incidences to back up your idea, then you are okay.

Second thing is confidentiality. CPS and all law enforcement involved cannot divulge the name of the informants unless so ordered by a court of law to do so. If they violate your confidence as a reporter, then you can sue them - and you'd likely win hands-down.

Another interesting tidbit -- again, depending on the state -- this husband can be legally responsible for not reporting his wife, too. The only priviledged information is in attorney-client and clergy-penitent priviledge. Husband-wife priviledge does not hold up in these cases.

Weinermr

Saturday, March 23, 2002 - 07:38 pm Click here to edit this post
Logan I disagree too. I have been in a couple similar situations not involving children, but involving elder abuse. Jewels is not putting herself at risk, she is allowing the appropriate authorities to intervene and determine whether there is a danger or a threat to the children, or to the neighbor herself. And Jewels can make a report anonymously if she chooses, step aside, and let trained professionals assess the situation. Again, it takes alot of courage, but it sounds like Jewels has sufficient knowledge of this specific situation to take the next step.

Karuuna

Saturday, March 23, 2002 - 07:49 pm Click here to edit this post
Bottom line, drunk driving is illegal. And drunk driving with children in the car is unconscionable.

Some time ago I had lunch with a friend of mine. I hadn't seen her in about a year or so. She consumed three "grande" margueritas, even tho I repeatedly expressed concern, knowing that she had to go pick up her children at day care after our lunch.

When she left, I called the day care center, and let them know, and then I called the police. They waited for her outside the day care center, and when she tried to drive off with the children, they arrested her.

It broke my heart to do that to my friend. It broke my heart that she would put me and her children in that position.

But I still don't doubt that it was the right thing to do...

Buttercup

Saturday, March 23, 2002 - 08:02 pm Click here to edit this post
There are obviously a lot of strong feelings and opinions on this subject. I appreciate the fact that the members on this board can agree and disagree in a respectable manner :)

Merlin

Saturday, March 23, 2002 - 08:13 pm Click here to edit this post
Karuuna, that is a tough choice for someone to make.

It is one thing to put her own children at risk, but to put other parent's children at risk by her driving under the influence is something to think about also. I would like to think I would have had the courage to make the same decision to try to prevent innocent people from being put at risk.

Llkoolaid

Saturday, March 23, 2002 - 08:51 pm Click here to edit this post
Does anyone know anything about medicine. My best friends daughter gave birth to a baby girl yesterday. They took the baby 3 weeks early because when they did blood tests on the mother her platlette(sp) count was 33. When the doctor got those results he said it had to be a mistake and ordered the tests done again. After the birth they gave her drugs to help her not hemorage(sp).
She is scheduled for a liver scan on Monday and has another appointment with another specialist later in the week. They went back and checked all her blood work history and found that the platlette count has been dropping since 3 years. Don't ask why this hasn't been picked up until now, health care in Canada has been declining for years. This is her second baby in 2 and 1/2 years and when they asked her if she noticed feeling more tired than usual she said she was but thought it was the pregnancies and a very active little boy. She also had cervical cancer when she carried her first son 11 years ago, which was successfully treated. I am very afraid of what they are looking for and my friend is thinking the worst. I can't even say the word. Can anyone give me any information that this might just be a simple problem that can be fixed. I am not asking to be nosy but to be able to help my best friend when she wants to talk about it. I am trying to keep her positive but she is terrified. Any thing that I am hearing or reading is not good and I would like to know if anyone has any experience with this. I know that we will have the answers in time but the wait is tearing my friend apart. I also know it is normal to think the worst and I am hoping that we are worrying over nothing. Any information anyone has would be helpful. I want to know what to be prepared for in order to help my friend.

Spygirl

Saturday, March 23, 2002 - 09:01 pm Click here to edit this post
This is definitely outside my knowledge base. I'll keep her in my prayers.

spy

Logan

Saturday, March 23, 2002 - 10:47 pm Click here to edit this post
Perhaps, I did not make it clear enough. Let me try re-state. First and foremost, I do not ever believe a person should turn the other way when witnessing abuse or direct danger to children. I.E. as per Jewels reference to an intoxicated person transporting children. I don't argue that.
I also don't argue the issue of reporting someone.
I also don't intend to imply that Jewel shouldn't say anything because it might embarass their father.

My point is pretty legitimate. When a person is reporting another person, be it to Child Protection or the Police. They best have clear and specific cause. Weiner, you referred to elderly. I was not referring to elderly. I clearly referred to children, who over a period of 10 plus years were taken out of good loving homes by Child Protection (or Social workers) as we call it in Canada, based on both anonymous and not anonymous "tips". I don't berate the need for agencies such as CPS etc. There are hundreds of thousands of children who are taken out of dangerous home environments for their own protection and safety. I am talking about the children who are removed for unjust cause. That is the "other" side of CPS. When a report is made of parents to any authorities, it goes into a database and is extremely difficult to get removed. There are people who have suffered unjustly, unfairly, and lost their children for long periods of time, as a result. The data goes into a "criminal" database. I have been involved in countless situation, where families have been "persecuted" as a result of false, or mistaken assumptions. I've seen those children suffer the ramifications.

All I'm trying to say is: based on what Jewel has posted, I disagree weinermr how you would see "sufficient knowledge". Jewel has not said whether she has discussed her concern to extent with the husband, or the woman who seems to have a drinking problem. Only Jewel, knows the extent of what she has witnessed. Perhaps, the mother is in alcohol treatment, perhaps the mother was being truthful when she said to Jewel "having a sh*tty day". Geesh.....all of us have "sh*tty" days!
I can understand Jewel's concern. All I'm saying is to make sure she has specifics to back up her concerns. Yes its better to be "safe than sorry" as someone posted. However, in issues like this it's wise to proceed cautiously.

Otherwise its no different than reporting an adult for molesting a child, when that hasn't happened.

Personally, in terms of alcohol, Anyone I see who has had more than 2 glasses of wine, in my mind I would "deem alcoholic". That's my bias. That does not mean that I am right in my assumption, and should report everyone who in my opinion has a drink. If they are drunk, my conscience would have me stop them from getting into a vehicle.

Jewel hasn't mentioned if this woman's own family has done anything about this problem. Maybe the husband isn't aware the mother is driving the children while impaired. Perhaps thats where she could start. As far as CPS, sorry, they provide a good service, but many times they will step in and yank out children in a most destructive and psychological manner, while investigations occur.

There is a process for everything. A person messes up the process,,it can cause detrimental impacts to many people, in particular children.

In no way do I imply, that Jewel should keep quiet. I'm just saying, do it the right way. Don't jump into a fire, you may not be able to extinguish later down the road.

Logan

Saturday, March 23, 2002 - 10:54 pm Click here to edit this post
llkool, I don't know that this would help you at all. My best friends daughter had a very, very similar situation occur with her first and second child. The count dropped, etc. Sometimes part of the drop is simply from the pregnancy itself. However, with my friends daughter, they found some cysts. She had some cancerous ones removed prior to the first child.
Anyways..not to get lengthy, but the daughter is doing fine right now, two years after the second child was born. She lives in Edmonton.
Hope same will be for your friend. Its scary with the tests, etc. but keep hopes up.

Weinermr

Saturday, March 23, 2002 - 11:03 pm Click here to edit this post
Logan, respectfully, I am not sure there is one "right way". I don't think it makes any difference whether the issue involves children, the elderly, abused spouses, violence, dangerous conditions, etc.

I don't believe it is Jewel's (or anyone else's) responsibility to try to evaluate the situation down to the nth degree. She sees very clearly there are children in possible danger. There is an authority to which she can report the matter, and she should do so.

Of course there are situations where someone is reported and there has been no misconduct. Although that is unfortunate, I believe it is far better to report and find nothing is wrong, than to not report and someone gets hurt or killed because nothing was done.

There is no perfect solution, but in my opinion, this is the best solution under the circumstances. I understand the points you are making, but I believe better safe than sorry applies here. It is a tragic situation in either case.

Perhaps rather than stating what I think Jewels SHOULD do, I will state what I would do. I would make the call to CPS or whichever authority exists in her area.

Myjohnhenry

Saturday, March 23, 2002 - 11:06 pm Click here to edit this post
I think that based on the limited information that Jewels gave us (and she did say that it wasn't all the details, but the jist of the problem) that we cannot tell her what to do or what not to do, but what options exist. This is just the type of situation that we alll dread having to deal with. I think that all sides of the issue have been pointed out here and I do hope it can continue to be done with respect in the knowledge that we do not know everything about the situation.

There are many pros and cons to the system of reporting to CPS and I have seen both sides...the good and the bad of both sides. I think it is a great conversation to have because there is not a wide awareness of all of those sides and the issues, but I really think the best thing here is to point out the options for Jewels to think of.

OK...I am tired and having a blah day and rambling...and this thread makes me sad so I am outta here for now.

Logan

Sunday, March 24, 2002 - 12:41 am Click here to edit this post
myjohn well said and ROFLMAO with the last sentence :).
I'm going to sleep also.

Jewels

Sunday, March 24, 2002 - 02:34 pm Click here to edit this post
Thank you to all of you! I am sorry it has taken me so long to get back here to say that. You all have very valid points and I really appreciate everyon's input!

I have lived across the street from them for over 6 years...no, this wasn't the first encounter or the first time I had seen her drunk. It was the first time though that I had actually seen her drunk and get into the car with the girls and drive away. There have been multiple times I have seen her drunk, there have been multiple times I have seen her take the girls to school and then come home carrying a 12-pack of beer and do the same thing the next morning. Do I know that she drank that 12-pack and then went and picked the girls up from school in the afternoon? No. But I can assume. I know many of you are probably gasping at the fact that I haven't before called CPS. I don't have a reason for it...I guess sometimes it's just easier to turn the other cheek and hope someone else will do it. But, like some of you pointed out, I don't have alot of facts either, I just have my assumptions.

Some of you wondered about the husband and extended family... They have no extended family in this state (Oregon), all their family lives on the East Coast. The husband...he has his own issues...I wouldn't be able to go to him first, and I will just leave it at that.

I have alot of fears about calling CPS...breaking up this family, also of retaliation, towards me and my family or towards her from the husband (I honestly don't know what goes on in that house between them, but I have my suspicions, no, I don't suspect physical violence towards the girls). Because I asked the mom if I could take the girls to their party on Friday, she now knows that I know she was drunk (proven by the fact that she called me when she got home to say she wasn't). That scares me. I may be able to call CPS anonymously, but that only goes so far, I just know she would know it was me.

This isn't your typical All-American family...they are throw backs from the 60's, 3 Volvos in their front yard, only 1 that partially runs. The 5 of them live in a rented 500 sq. ft. house, that looks like it will fall over in the next wind storm.

This is probably more information that any of you wanted to know or care about knowing, I just felt like I needed to explain the situation a little more. I could go on and on with stories about these people...

I really appreciate everyone's help...I am going to call CPS tomorrow and at least talk to someone. I have to do something.

Spygirl

Sunday, March 24, 2002 - 03:14 pm Click here to edit this post
Good luck, Jewels. Given the additional information you shared of potential retalitation from this family, it might be the better choice to make the "hypothetical" call and let CPS decide what to do. Good advice from all above.

Julieboo

Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 07:19 am Click here to edit this post
Hi Jewels

So what's the update? Did you talk to CPS? If so, were they helpful? Hope all is going well...

Juju2bigdog

Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 08:42 am Click here to edit this post
Jewels may not be comfortable talking about it, since this is such an emotionally charged issue, and she is actually having to live through it, and continue to live with the consequences, if any. Just know there's lots of folks here who care if you want to discuss it further, Jewels.

((((Jewels))))

Jewels

Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 11:43 am Click here to edit this post
Thanks for asking Julie, it is very sweet of you, but Juju is right, I have decided not to discuss it further here. Although everyone here was so kind and helpful to me, I feel I crossed a line that I shouldn't have crossed by posting my situation. I really do appreciate all the advice and support that everyone gave me, you are ALL wonderful here. I know that if there comes a time that I do need advice again from my "friends" that I can count on you guys and that is a good feeling. Thanks.

Whoami

Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 12:53 pm Click here to edit this post
I don't think you crossed the line to seek advice here. You had a problem that needed attention, and you got some very helpful tips. However, it is admirable for you to decide not to post further about it. Posting all the happenings and goings on could be considered gossipy at this point.

Good luck! You, and that poor family, are in our thoughts.

Juju2bigdog

Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 09:49 pm Click here to edit this post
Well said, Whoami.