NY Times Tells Bush to get overhimself
The ClubHouse: Archives: NY Times Tells Bush to get overhimself
Faerygdds | Tuesday, April 16, 2002 - 09:25 pm     PI??? what's PI??? I have on a DVD -- Thirteen Days... |
Misslibra | Tuesday, April 16, 2002 - 09:30 pm     Politically Incorrect. |
Faerygdds | Tuesday, April 16, 2002 - 09:31 pm     OH CRAP... Did I miss it.. I always forget to turn the DVD off at the right time... I love that show! |
Misslibra | Tuesday, April 16, 2002 - 09:31 pm     Faerygdds the same here your arguements were very good as well. |
Misslibra | Tuesday, April 16, 2002 - 09:32 pm     Yea you missed that portion of it now their on to a different subject. |
Faerygdds | Tuesday, April 16, 2002 - 09:38 pm     ET is on now... PI is on after.. I think they pushed it back cuz we had bad weather and pre-empted or something... Yeah, but now you killed it... I knew where you were going and my trump was Vietnam!!! Now I have nowhere to go but back to my little whole... care to debate the education issue in the thread I made the other day??? huh huh??? (dangling carrot) And so what if we get a little passionate??? If we can't get passionate about politics and/or religion... well... what CAN you get passionate about??? However I do apologize if I stepped over the line.. it was unintended... and for the record I know where to get a pair of those glasses... I think my Mother designed them! I shouldn't say that.. I love my Mom.. and she is wonderful... and I am SOOOOO bad lol |
Misslibra | Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 12:26 am     LOL I'm all debated out for the night. I know that because I laid across my bed after PI went off, it was only suppose to be for a second but I feel asleep just that quick. Didn't mean to leave you hanging. I'm going to take a shower and go to bed now you have a goodnight see ya tomorrow. |
Shakes | Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 10:30 am     Whoa, Faerygdds...in the future I'll be sure not to post my 'perspective'without first consulting a dictionary, encyclopedia and the history channel! I suppose my bias was showing....I was in NYC on 9/11 -- living it in technicolor. Kudos for your political savvy and passion. From here on out I'll stand quietly in the back with my morality. |
Oregonfire | Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 11:30 am     I like this dicussion. It reminds me of the good old days of the humongous "Gun Control" thread. BTW, Karuuna, where are you? My problem with the whole Middle Eastern debate: there's what I can intellectualize about the situation (i.e. freedom fighters vs. terrorists a matter of perspective), and my gut feeling about the situation: that Arafat is not truly interested in peace, and thus is a poor choice of leader for his people. It's what all the bigwigs say, and they seem quite adamant about it, so I tend to believe them. On the other hand, what happened in Janin on the West Bank sounds like a massacre on the part of Israeli troops, and only served to further escalate the retalitory violence of the Palestinis. This was a huge misstep on the part of the Israelis. I was in Israel for three months on a kibbutz near the border of Lebanon: you could hear the bombs detonating at night. I've been to the Church of the Nativity as well, where Palestini militants are currently holed up. I have an admitted bias in this debate. As a Western woman, I had some unfortunate incidents occur in Israel and Egypt that strongly contribute to my viewpoint. I can't separate my emotions from this discussion. |
Faerygdds | Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 12:01 pm     I don't know... I guess I have a little different perspective on it... My understanding (most of this is from people who were in Germany at the time) is that the Germans displaced the Jews... many of them came to America, but with no "immediate" room for them they were placed into refugee camps, which must have seemed like just another prison to them. Then they made a deal with the Palestines and sent them "home". (this is where I get fuzzy, so someone please correct my ignorance if I am wrong) Once they got back home they declared... "This is our home... now get out!" (to the Palestinis) The Palestines went... "huh?" (I know I'm being REALLY simplistic) And the now Isrealis said, "OK... you can have a piece... here..." and thus Palestine was born. Now... to me that's a lot like welcoming your brother who lost his job into your house (the family house) and coming home to find the locks changed! And worse your old key fits the pool supply room! Yet it's Isreal that we (the USA) supports. Why??? Why are we stuck in the middle of a dispute which can be likened unto the Hatfields and the McCoys? (if you don't understand this reference, don't say anything... you'll just prove to me that I'm getting old lol) Now don't get me wrong... I don't supprt Palestine and their use of aggression either, but when you get down to brass tacks, don't they have a point too??? Or am I just nuts??? (I know leaving myself WAY open) Someone help me out here.... |
Faerygdds | Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 12:09 pm     Oregon, Quote: my gut feeling about the situation: that Arafat is not truly interested in peace, and thus is a poor choice of leader for his people. It's what all the bigwigs say, and they seem quite adamant about it, so I tend to believe them. Response: While that's true I also think that he a "known factor". In other words, we know how Arafat acts and thinks... who knows what the new leader would be like. I think that's the ONLY reason people like He and Saddam have survived this long. Quote: On the other hand, what happened in Janin on the West Bank sounds like a massacre on the part of Israeli troops, and only served to further escalate the retalitory violence of the Palestinis. This was a huge misstep on the part of the Israelis. Response: Just like we react passionatly about the issue, this is their homeland they are talking about. Well, it was their homeland 3000 years ago.. of course they DID abandon it around 2500 years ago and returned in 1948, but eh... whatever... misstep... probably, but perhaps an understandable one. Perhaps just as understandable as the Palestines responding the only way they know how. Granted it's not a great method, but it does garner attention after all. (suicide bombers, etc) Quote: I was in Israel for three months on a kibbutz near the border of Lebanon: you could hear the bombs detonating at night. I've been to the Church of the Nativity as well, where Palestini militants are currently holed up. I have an admitted bias in this debate. As a Western woman, I had some unfortunate incidents occur in Israel and Egypt that strongly contribute to my viewpoint. I can't separate my emotions from this discussion. Response: I know I learned a lot about freedom the summer I spent with my uncle... one mile from the Berlin Wall. I heard plenty... I would love to hear more about YOUR personal viewpoints because you HAVE been there. |
Misslibra | Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 07:07 pm     Well they let emergency people in to collect the bodies, but when ever any news person ask people who have been there were there 100s of bodies in the rumble they have said they don't know yet. Just think, none of this would have happen if Arafat had of took care of business and arrested the people that were causing problems in the first place, and also if the homicide bombers hadn't started blowing innocent people up. Right now Arafat and his people could of had their own state. For me, and this is just for me don't expect everyone to agree with it, I really feel it falls back in the Palestinians laps. I think it's a disgrace how they are using the church as their combat zone. It's one thing to take up safe haven in a church and another to use it to fire your guns from. Israel won the land they are on right now in a war where they were protecting themselves from what I understand. Is it fair that they have to give that land back in the first place, after winning it in a war? |
Faerygdds | Wednesday, April 17, 2002 - 07:47 pm     Quote:I think it's a disgrace how they are using the church as their combat zone. It's one thing to take up safe haven in a church and another to use it to fire your guns from. Response: OK... I see your point, but they are being fired upon... what are they supposed to do??? Just let the Israelis shoot a hole through the wall and come in and kill them. It's a self preservationist act. We may not like their choice of buildings, but don't they have the right to defend themselves and fight back? Quote: Israel won the land they are on right now in a war where they were protecting themselves from what I understand. Is it fair that they have to give that land back in the first place, after winning it in a war? Response: The Israelis FOUGHT for this land in a war??? I must really have my facts mixed up about this... checking reference sources... ok... education time... From encarta.com (I am beginning to love this site): Israel (country), country in southwestern Asia, formed in 1948 as a Jewish state in the historic region of Palestine..... it goes on later to state: Jews clashed with the Palestinian Arab inhabitants of the region throughout the British administration of Palestine from 1918 to 1948. In the years after World War II (1939-1945) the United Nations (UN) developed a plan to partition Palestine into separate Jewish and Arab states. The Arabs rejected the plan, but the Jews accepted it, and the independent nation of Israel was created in 1948. ------------------------------- I'm beginning to see why the Arabs hate the Western World...... no war... just politics! |
Misslibra | Thursday, April 18, 2002 - 01:26 am     Jewish people won that land in a war when they and the Arabs started fighting over the land. Arabs rejected the two states proposed by the UN. The Jewish people accepted. This cause even more war breaking out over the land with Syria, Lebanon,Egypt and Jordan invading the land, but they also were beaten back by the Jews for the land. The Jewish army had secured the extended area proposed by the UN. This is why I said they won the land in a war. The Arabs fought for the land and loss. More war followed with the PLO and Arafat, representing the Arab people vowed to reclaimed the land and destroy the State of Israel. The six day war...The hostilities between Israel and it's neightbors continues, with both side building up its military on june 5th 1967 Israel launched a preemptive attack against Arab troops along it's borders. Israel took the Sinai from Egypt, Golan Heights from Syria, the west bank and old city of jerusalem from Jordan. The yom kippur war Oct 6th 1973, Egypt attacked Israel held lands during yom kippur. After this happen Israel fought back and regained nearly all of the territories they had occupied during the six day war. More wars continue between Arabs and Jews so it wasn't just A War but many more Wars over this land. I still believe this administration should of stepped in a lot sooner on this issue. It's a shame Collin Powell came back empty handed. I fear it only going to get worst before it gets any better. The church is no place for guns. And I'm sure the Jewish army arguement would be they are firing on us what are we suppose to do not fire back and just let them shoot us? So there is two sides to that arguement, whos shooting at who, and who is shooting in response to being shot at. |
Faerygdds | Thursday, April 18, 2002 - 06:19 am     Just read about the 6 Day War. The 6 Day War happened because Isreal "occupied" other countries. Let me explain how a territory becomes "occupied". OK... you have this war (WWII) and there are all these people that have to move when the war is done (Jews). There's no place for them to go, so the UN gives them the old Bill Gates "Where do you want to go today?" The Jews who have spent years saying, "Next Year in the Holy Land" decided to go to the Holy Land, but wait... That land is already jammed packed, so off to Palestine you go because they are at least welcoming you. But some of the Jews go to the Holy Land anyway (after all there are a couple of places to live.. and apartment here or there. SO... eventually... A Jew buys an apartment building and says... this is no longer Arab, it's Jewish.... repeat and rinse several times over 20 years... Now they have "occuied" territory. The Arabs of course are seeing this and have been trying to push them out because (to them) here these people moved in and took over and now they are expanding... a very dangerous prospect to the Arabs. But the Israelis know that they are really pushing the envelope. They would rather have a war on "Arab" Land than Israel, so the 6 Day war happens. You know... you are right about one thing... the UN really dropped the ball on the whole thing. It really does sound like the Jews were shuffled around mercilessly because no one knew where they "belonged", then they were dumped in the desert in the only country that accepted them. Of course then they just took over, started expanding, and occupying territory. Their method of occupation is very smart, but very shrewd. Thus I believe (now) that this is where that stereotype of Jews comes from. ---------------------- It would be like us saying to the survivors of a war... here.. we have this great state called (picking at random) Iowa that you can come live in if you want to. We do whatever we can to accomodate you, but we warn you that we don't have much to offer you. Now these people "occupy" Iowa... and eventually push out the Americans that WERE living in the area. Fearing the worst, Americans start fighting back because we were here first and it was our land that we welcomed them into. (Forget American policies.. it's just an example and doesn't apply) So the Americans start attacking Iowa intermittently. The Iowans (that's what I'll call them for the sake of example) start moving into.. I don't know.... Cleveland... they consider Cleveland to be the Holy Land (OK... my exmple just made ME laugh)... Anyway... they consider Cleveland to be the Holy Land (giggle)... and they begin to occupy Cleveland in much the same way. After 20 years they manage to take over a part of the Cleveland. They fear American retalliation as they had seen before and attack first... and win... so the land belongs to them??? As an American I would say "I think not", but the UN officially recognizes the Iowans as the new owners. Is this fair??? --------------------------- OK... that's the concept... you know... a month ago I was totally ignorant and kept thinking the Israelis were so "right" and I didn't even know the specifics... now.. I'm not so sure.... The more I read and learn about how they got there... and how they came to power there the less I see their "side". Now don't get me wrong... I hate war.. I'm a pacifist and belive anything can be worked out if we are willing to work together. But now I understand both sides of the argument. The Israelis just want to live SOMEWHERE they can call their own in peace.... and the Arabs think... HEY.. you just moved in and took over.. who do you think you are??? Who is right and who is wrong??? I SEE both sides! <<I still believe this administration should of stepped in a lot sooner on this issue. It's a shame Collin Powell came back empty handed. I fear it only going to get worst before it gets any better.>> I'm just glad Collin Powell made it back ALIVE!!! Both sides are righteous in their indignation and unwavering in their stances. Frankly.. I feel like we don't have ANY business being there and have to think that the only reason we ARE there is because now WE along with others have allowed and helped Israel become a nuclear power. Very politically unnerving... and yeah... it could get much worse before it gets better! The church is no place for guns. And I'm sure the Jewish army arguement would be they are firing on us what are we suppose to do not fire back and just let them shoot us? So there is two sides to that arguement, whos shooting at who, and who is shooting in response to being shot at. As far as the church thing goes... yes I agree, guns don't belong in a church, but the reality is that that happens to be the building they (Palastines) made it into, and that's where the firing IS occuring at. Oh Yeah... And what about Arafat being holed up in his office and it being fired upon??? Meanwhile Israel is saying... "We don't want to kill him... really..." You know... I have to side with Arafat (putting myself in his shoes) on this one with the attitude of... "not feeling real safe here" Sorry.. the argument just doesn't work the other way. The people holed up are MUCH more vunerable than the army surrounding it. --------------- Also.... The Germans "occupied" many places during WWII... After the war Germany was forced to give back that land... are you saying they shouldn't have had to do that???? Had they not... well... hope you like Schnitzel because that would have made them a MAJOR player in the Geopolitical arena! (By the way... had never heard of the 6 days war.. thanks for helping to expand my knowledge yet again, but unfortunately it did more to make me understand the Arabs than the Israelis) |
Faerygdds | Thursday, April 18, 2002 - 06:20 am     WOW.. sorry that was so long... but I do love to learn... |
Misslibra | Thursday, April 18, 2002 - 01:42 pm     Well in that case the Indians could say this is occupied land and they want their land back. It's Arafat's fault he is where he is. Like I said before if he had of arrest the people causing the problems he wouldn't be in the position he is today. If he had spoke out against the bombers he wouldn't be where he is today. Israel tore down his compound because of the bombings and because there was known people inside who were behind the bombings. There is always two sides to a story. Palistinians didn't accept the UN agreement, they chose to fight for the land and loss, even with the help of neighboring countries they loss. Which is why I say Israel won the land in a war. You know when looking back on history there has been a lot of wars over land. And some countries got their land in just that way through wars, and who ever won the fight ended up with the land. Palistinians loss the fight and Israel ended up with the land. So I can't fault Israel on the method in which they got their land, when you have other countries who got their land in the same way. I actually agreed with the Palistinians needing their own state. But they have showed the only thing they want is to destroy the state of Israel, and take back all of the land. Leading to another bloody war. Everytime they have tried to take back land they end up on the losing end of the war. They need to face it Israel is not going any where. And Israel should fac it the Palistinians aren't going any where. The cycle of violence will continue on. Palistinians loss any support I was feeling for them with the homicide bombers. And the Men in the church should surrender, but they are choosing to fight and die. From what I understand their is about 200 of them in there who will end up dying, I doubt if they will surrender. |
Misslibra | Thursday, April 18, 2002 - 01:49 pm     BTW Faerygdds I'm enjoying this discussion, very educational. |
Faerygdds | Thursday, April 18, 2002 - 07:33 pm     Sorry.. been gone.. digesting new information ... I am enjoying this also, thanks! |
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