Archive through March 12, 2002
The ClubHouse: Archives: Andrea Yates confession:
Archive through March 12, 2002
Jville | Friday, March 01, 2002 - 05:59 am     If your emotions are getting stirred up and impacting you personally, perhaps "lurking" wouldn't be a good idea either. |
Christina | Friday, March 01, 2002 - 06:38 am     no, not impacting me personally...Just making me want to say alot more, not sure if I can write it all down, thats all. It is very interesting to get the different views out there. |
Whowhere | Friday, March 01, 2002 - 07:12 am     Read this..... http://www.760kfmb.com/miscellaneous/vandam/rick_source_info.shtml |
Twiggyish | Friday, March 01, 2002 - 07:41 am     One thing to note about the Yates case and as we are seeing in this thread..there are many many people dealing with mental illness in their families. Although this is a painful subject, I have learned from reading. If my view has hurt anyone's feelings, I do apologize. That wasn't my intention. |
Urgrace | Friday, March 01, 2002 - 07:49 am     I just wanted to say one last thing in this thread. I do not have strong feelings about Rusty Yates because he happens to be male. That woman who drowned her children in the car a couple years ago, drew the same reaction from me. I knew she killed her kids and am very glad she got caught. And both parents, father and mother of the little beauty queen Jon Bonet Ramsey in Colorado, got my anger stirred. They were both guilty in my eyes. |
Tksoard | Friday, March 01, 2002 - 08:11 am     If this thread is going to die now, I want to thank all of the posters here. I haven't had to deal with mental illness in my personal life (except alittle depression compared to this, but big to me I thought) and this has opened my eyes to a whole different life. It has been alittle uncomfortable reading here, but very enlightening. Thank you everyone. |
Oregonfire | Friday, March 01, 2002 - 08:14 am     Don't worry about it, Twiggyish. One of the worst things about mental illness is the issue of accountability. Being logical and sane human beings, we want logicial, clear cut explanations and reasons for things, and mental illness can be irrational, illogical, and unpredictable. Often it's not a "curable" illness--my dad's been through dozens of drug cocktails, most with limited success (that is, if he choses to take them). The fact that I was told I could never blame him for his behavior because of his illness was also maddening--I always felt entitled to my anger over his condition, both for his sake and the sake of my family and myself. I'm glad I'm not a juror at the Yates trial--luckily I have the luxury of speculating about assigning blame, instead of being one who has to administer punishment based on it. I think one thing we can all agree on is that the deaths of those five children was a horrible thing, and steps need to be taken to prevent such a tragedy from happening again. |
Twiggyish | Friday, March 01, 2002 - 08:17 am     I couldn't be on that jury. It would break my heart. TK, I have also learned. |
Christina | Friday, March 01, 2002 - 08:21 am     |
Karuuna | Friday, March 01, 2002 - 09:03 am     I just wanna say you all are great! Personally, my bias is to talk about all these things, and all the varying opinions. I appreciate that people can do that respectfully here. It often takes great courage to talk about subjects that are close to your heart; but I truly believe that as a community and as a society, we grow from such discussions. I know that sometimes it's hard not to have difficult subjects stir up our own feelings about these things; and I find that in myself as well. My father was extremely mentally ill, my mother mildly so. I'm sure my own opinions are colored deeply by my own experiences. But it's the sharing of views of people who don't agree with me that help me to learn and grow. And I appreciate and admire the willingness of people to share their different opinions, because I benefit from that. I try not to take it personally, even in the extreme case when someone takes a deliberate jab at me. I also recognize that's not an easy thing to do. Please know that even if I disagree, I deeply respect the opinions of the others who have posted here. For those who have had deep emotions stirred, I wish you peace. And if I've done anything to offend, even unintentionally, know that I am truly sorry for that. I would never knowingly hurt someone else, or even cause them discomfort. |
Aussiedeb | Friday, March 01, 2002 - 10:26 am     So wonderfully put everyone. I belong to a Bulletin Board for Irritable Bowel and you should have seen the discussion on this topic over there. I lost my cool when someone posted that he felt someone who abandons their kids is only one step above killing them. At least here everyone was caring and restrained in their replies. I think people on this board have class.
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Whowhere | Friday, March 01, 2002 - 10:49 am     Not to be repetitive, but I wanted to add my appreciation too. Thanks for the kind words. I hope this thread doesn't 'die'. I hoped to continue the discussion throughout the trial. I think we've all learned a lot by talking and getting different viewpoints. I, like others, learn from that. Sometimes you need someone to pull you out of your own personal perspective. Thanks everyone, too, for joining in this discussion. Often times in life, you feel like you're the only one who is deeply touched or affected by what's happening in our world. It's nice to know that there are a lot of other mothers in this world who think like me AND, more importantly, the ones who don't and are willing to share their perspective so that I can look at things from a different angle. Bottom line is, whether or not we agree with each other opinions, we still have something in common: we are good people trying to make sense of something that is completely senseless. Too bad we can't have a group hug. That would be the best. {{{{HUG EVERYONE!!!}}} |
Grooch | Monday, March 04, 2002 - 10:21 am     Mom kills, dad kills: Two takes on tragedy By DOUG SAUNDERS Saturday, March 2, 2002 – Page A1 LOS ANGELES -- The case has all the elements of a media sensation: five children dead of asphyxiation; a parent charged with first-degree murder in their deaths; the other parent horrified by the apparent act of homicidal depression that destroyed the family. But this is not the case of Andrea Yates, the Texas mother on trial for the drowning of three of her five children last year, and who could yet be charged in the deaths of the other two. Instead, it is the case of Adair Garcia, 30, charged last week with murder in the deaths of five of his six children, who died from inhaling the fumes from a barbecue ignited while they slept. The Yates trial has become the biggest U.S. media sensation of the year, its every detail splashed on front pages and analyzed in lengthy TV discussions. The Garcia case has so far failed to make the front page of any major newspaper, even in the family's home town of Los Angeles, and has quickly disappeared from the news. There is only one obvious difference between the two: Ms. Yates is a mother, Mr. Garcia is a father. Popular opinion has shown one of its perverse turns. People are obsessed with mothers who kill their children, while little interest is shown in fathers who do the same. The distinction lies deep in human psychology. When fathers kill their offspring, it is viewed as a serious crime; when mothers do it, it is seen as a deep sickness, one that garners both sympathy and profound horror. "Killings by aggrieved fathers are generally done out of jealousy and anger, directed at hurting the ex-spouse or ex-partner," said Jordan Steiker, a law professor at the University of Texas. "Our society is very ambivalent in labeling women as murderers. To make sense of a crime through mental illness is much more common with women, and especially with mothers," she said in an interview yesterday. Mr. Garcia's case certainly fits this pattern. Police initially thought that five of his six children had died in a terrible accident. Mr. Garcia's mother-in-law, arriving to babysit on the morning of Feb. 20, found seven bodies in a bungalow in Whittier, a neighbourhood in south Los Angeles, and a smoldering barbecue in the living room. Five children, ranging in age from 2 to 10, were dead after breathing the fumes all night; a nine-year-old was unconscious, as was their father, Mr. Garcia, found lying beside the barbecue. When the horrified mother, Adriana Arreola, showed up on the scene and collapsed in grief, police began to doubt the case was an accident. The marriage had been on the rocks; she had moved out for a week, and Mr. Garcia had spoken ominously of depression and revenge. He was soon charged with five counts of first-degree murder and one count of attempted murder. He will be arraigned on March 19. It remains to be seen whether the jury and sentencing judge will treat him differently from Ms. Yates. Well-established precedent says he will be treated much more harshly if he is convicted. Michelle Oberman, a law professor at DePaul University in New Jersey, argues in her recent book Mothers Who Kill Their Children that juries rarely assign murder convictions to mothers accused of killing their own offspring, or request tough sentences such as the death penalty. This, she speculates, is because these cases are almost always matters of deep clinical depression, generating considerable sympathy rather than rage. "Throughout common-law history, juries and judges have tended to agree on one thing: When a mother kills her child, it is generally different from other forms of homicide," Prof. Oberman wrote in an opinion article on the Yates case this week. "Different because these cases are not only about the horror of dead children, but also about desperate and deeply troubled women." In Texas, the public is divided between those who wish Ms. Yates would be given psychological treatment rather than a criminal trial, and those who argue strenuously that she should be sentenced to death. No such debate has arisen over Mr. Garcia. Instead, the few Los Angeles citizens who have noticed the case have expressed mystification. "How do you understand this?" asked Los Angeles County Sheriff's Lieutenant Don Bear on the day of Mr. Garcia's arrest. "There really is no way that you can understand this or why someone would do something like this." The Los Angeles Times carried Lt. Bear's mystified remarks, along with all other coverage of the Garcia family tragedy, on page B4. |
Karuuna | Monday, March 04, 2002 - 10:39 am     I think the article makes some good points, but is off-base on some others. It is true that we are less surprised when a father kills his own children. We are also less surprised when a man kills anyone for that matter. It is a more common occurrence in our society (unfortunately); and the more something happens the less shock value it has for us. The author says there is only one "obvious difference", but I don't find that convincing. Another obvious difference is that Andrea Yates was mentally ill for years, and was in and out of treatment. One of the important issues in the Yates trial is the failure of the health system to treat her adequately (in my opinion). This article makes no mention of whether this particular father had been diagnosed or treated. We don't know if he had hallucinations or psychosis, as Andrea Yates did. All we know is that he "self-reported" depression. One thing that these two do have in common, is that five children are dead in each case. And we ought to do everything we can to understand why and how this happened, so that as a society we can act in ways to prevent it whenever possible. |
Tksoard | Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 04:29 pm     The jury deliberated for three and a half hours. They came back with a verdict of guilty on two counts of capital murder. How sad. |
Karuuna | Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 04:33 pm     As I had fearfully predicted. Under the legal definition of knowing the difference between right and wrong, Andrea Yates was found sane. Now that's crazy. |
Angelnikki | Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 04:42 pm     i hate to disagree with you all but i think she deserves to die. i think she was totally sane and still is!! im sorry but i hope for the death penalty if i had feelings at all whatsoever of KILLING my son i would call 911 immediately and say please come get my son out of this house i want to hurt him and i would run run run!!!!!!!!1 sorry just my opinion, im sure i will get slack for this but its how i feel and it is how i have felt since i heard about this sad story. |
Karuuna | Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 04:53 pm     Angel- you have a right to your opinion, and please feel free to share it, even if you disagree. However, my understanding is that Andrea Yates suffered from paranoid schizophrenia, which is a biological brain disorder. It was neither a choice, nor was it caused by her upbringing or anything else in her life; altho it may have been made worse by her life circumstances and her pregnancies. It is characterized by hallucinations that appear absolutely real to the person having them. (For a great example, go see the movie "A Beautiful Mind", which is based on the true story of the great economist John Nash.) It is a hereditary dysfunction of the brain, that is characterized by irrational thought and behavior. Your thoughts about what you would do in the same situation are admirable, but your thoughts ARE rational. Having dealt for years with a family member who was also a paranoid schizophrenic, I know that it's not realistic to expect them to think and behave rationally. They simply aren't capable of it. |
Buttercup | Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 05:01 pm     Angelnikki, anybody who is mentally healthy would think like that. A person with a mental disorder such as Yates, does not have rational thoughts. I know it doesn't make any sense if you don't have an understanding of mental disorders. Oops, I see Karuuna posted again just before me. She said it well. |
Angelnikki | Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 05:03 pm     i can agree with you karuuna because I dont know what it is like to live with a person with schizophrenia or any brain disorder. just from hearing things and seeing all the stories and news all the time of the events of that horrific day just upset me more than anything i can even explain. i cannot shake the feeling that something else is wrong here. I just have this feeling that she knew what she was doing was wrong because she had stated that she thought of doing it several times but didnt. Now, irrational people dont think like that, they feel it and they just do it without thinking of the consequences but Andrea did not do that, instead, she picked a perfect day and she did a horrific terrible unthinkable act that day that i will never ever forget about. |
Buttercup | Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 05:07 pm     Irrational people may not think like Yates, but Yates is sick--not irrational. |
Angelnikki | Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 05:10 pm     sorry i meant SICK people dont think like that. |
Karuuna | Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 05:15 pm     Angel - in some ways I agree with you too. I think of what those children must have suffered in those last horrible moments of their lives, and I almost can't bear it. And I want someone to pay for their suffering. Yet, even tho Andrea had some sense of reality, it was clearly distorted and irrational. She believed she was saving her children from a bad mother, from the devil, and was sending them to heaven. She thought she herself was possessed by the devil, and scratched herself completely bald in a spot where she believed she was tatooed with the number 666. She'd spend hours staring into space. She once stood stock still for 45 minutes staring at a cartoon because she believed it was "speaking to her and the children". While she did plan her actions for a time when no one was around to stop her, I think she really did believe she was doing the right thing in her very distorted understanding of right and wrong. |
Angelnikki | Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 05:25 pm     Karuuna, those things you talk about that she did, I had NO IDEA she did those things im sooo sorry! I cannot even fathom(sp?) what was going through her head! I dont want to think about it. I feel soooo sorry for the children and maybe when Andrea gets some help for her condition, she can explain it to us so we may better understand her. |
Fruitbat | Tuesday, March 12, 2002 - 06:46 pm     Possibly...... is our own fear of death behind some of our posts? I believe death is a graceful transition and it may be a soft and gentle choice for her. I cannot imagine awakening to the horror that is before her. She seems divorced from it now. That is a blessing. She is mentally ill. I would want to die.......I think. Living with this horror is a burden that is beyond my comprehention. |
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