Archive through February 26, 2002

The ClubHouse: Archives: Andrea Yates confession: Archive through February 26, 2002

Sunshinemiss

Saturday, February 23, 2002 - 02:42 pm Click here to edit this post
What a horrible, sad story. I couldn't even read all of it. I just kept thinking of my darling son over whom the sun rises and sets for me. That human beings are capable of doing such awful things to each other makes me want to crawl into a cave and wall it up behind me and my loves ones.

That being said, also having had personal experience with mental illness in my family (with the physical and emotional scars to prove it) I don't feel you can hold the mom responsible. Clearly there was a problem. I do feel some of the rest of the family should bear some responsibility ,to what degree I can't say.

I agree that one of the few bright spots in all this is the attention it brings to the need to legitimasize (?) mental health issues- it is so often used as an excuse that people tend to not lend it credence, but when it is real it is clearly life threatening.

Sad, sad, sad.

Twiggyish

Saturday, February 23, 2002 - 03:43 pm Click here to edit this post
Sunshine, I don't think any of us hold Andrea responsible and you are right about mental illness and the physical scars.

Car, it's ok. I agree that we can disagree. =)

Karuuna

Saturday, February 23, 2002 - 04:00 pm Click here to edit this post
I'm not entirely sure the law won't find her responsible. One of the legal definitions of insanity is whether someone knew the difference between right and wrong. I think the prosecutors can make a good argument that she knew killing her children was wrong. She called the police when she was done. She said she did it in order to be punished for being such a bad mother. She said she did it in order to be executed.

On the other hand, it's clear to anyone who has read anything about the case that she was mentally ill.

Dahli

Saturday, February 23, 2002 - 04:23 pm Click here to edit this post
The law needs to be cognizant of what mental illness is and adjust accordingly. If these children and Andrea need to be sacrificed so we all become wiser - that is the price that is sometimes exacted for the greater good. I am absolutely riveted by this, it takes my breath away,and that 'but for the grace of God....'
Thanks you all again for the incredibly gentle feeling this thread continues to offer - it's like we are all so tender and sore from this,but this thread is a safe place for some of us to finally talk about it.

Christina

Sunday, February 24, 2002 - 06:12 am Click here to edit this post
I dont know who a person can blame for the tragic death of these young children....But it does bother me when people want to blame the father. Only becuz I live with a person with mental illness that has done done silly things, I in all my power could not have stopped most of it. The person who is sick has many rights. I have called the dr. myself and have been told that he has to be the one to want help etc. there is such a fine line as to what a person can do for another even in such circumstances. Usually the person doesnt even feel that there is anything wrong. Once again I am rambling...but a spouse, a brother whatever cannot make some of the important decisions when thay need to be made. I remember once saying he is not ready to come home, they sent him nayway, I looked after him and he was back in a week. I was right, he wanted it his way and he won. The dr. waited till something terrible happened.

Holly

Sunday, February 24, 2002 - 09:05 am Click here to edit this post
I don't think any one could have seen this happening.It's just so unbelievable to know that it really did happen so how does any one foresee it happening? I know Andrea had to be sick but I'm thinking after she drown the first child something should have kicked in for her to realize what she had done.It's like she had a plan and followed through to the end.Maybe I'm wrong I have never dealt with mental illness to that degree.I remember having "The Baby Blues",as we called it,after my second child but NOTHING compared to what she went through.Only God knows how to judge her so I won't do that but I will pray for her.

Karuuna

Sunday, February 24, 2002 - 09:19 am Click here to edit this post
Christina - I'm sorry you've had to deal with such a difficult situation. You're correct that you often can't predict what a mentally ill person will do; nor can you always prevent it.

However, in this case, the husband knew that his wife had thoughts about killing the children, especially Noah (the oldest). According to the Time article, after she killed the chidren and called the police, she called her husband at work and said "it's time, I finally did it." and then she hung up. When he called back to ask what happened, all she said was "it's the kids."

With that cryptic conversation, he knew she had killed at least one of them, because all he asked then was which of the five.

So it's pretty clear that he knew that she had thought about and was capable of killing the children. I know that hindsight is always clearer; but I still don't understand with him knowing that, and knowing the difficulty she was having since the death of her father, why he would leave her alone with the children. From the articles I've read about him, it's clear that he understood the seriousness of her illness. It may be that he felt helpless to do anything else. Still, I don't think I would have ever left my children alone with someone who was so mentally disturbed; and who had previously confessed to having serious impulses to kill them.

Twiggyish

Sunday, February 24, 2002 - 05:51 pm Click here to edit this post
Exactly Kar. This in no way blames family members for the actions of their mentally ill relative. This is a unique case and is not to be equated to anyone else.

We have a mentally ill person in our family (sister-in-law) and I would dread ever having anyone hold us responsible for HER actions.

I do hold the husband responsible. I know he tried to get her help, but it doesn't excuse the fact he chose to father or have another child.
My heart goes out to you Christine. You have a lot in your life to deal with.

Sunshinemiss

Sunday, February 24, 2002 - 10:41 pm Click here to edit this post
Christina I agree with you in regards to the fact that one of the worst parts of mental illness is that the person who is sick feels that they are fine, and that nobody else will see or understand them, which only escalated the situation for everyone.

IMO increased awareness helps everyone but it is such a shame it has to come at such a cost. I especially hope the police and mental health professionals take this as a wake-up call to
PLEASE back up the folks who say they need help, or more importantly their care-givers or relatives who try to get help for them. There needs to be some change to either laws or guidelines to allow enforcement of necessary medication under threat of incarceration in a mental health facility.

This all started way back in the 60's when they discontinued the state mental institutions. Those places were a horror at the time but nobody has ever come up with a viable substitute since... an ongoing problem that needs to be addressed. So many homeless are mentally ill and end up in the penal system just for lack of anywhere else to go and that is NOT what they need- they are frequently victimized and seldom given the help they need, plus our police are already overworked and our jails overcrowded.

Just observations. I have no ready answers, only sympathy and prayers for the victims on both sides.

Christina

Monday, February 25, 2002 - 04:37 am Click here to edit this post
Hi Sun, just had to say that you are so right!! I mean when a person has an illness such as this , education is so IMPORTANT. When this person or the caregiver is asking for help, it is so helpful to know you are not alone. My other is an extremely intelligent man, very responsible, exellent job. He has it all, plus a mental illness(bipolar) It all began at 36 yrs old. I remember asking for help in the beginning. Noone understood. They all figured he would just snap out of it. People figured we must be awful behind doors because of the things he said. They thought I must be real hard on him and stuff. Actually I felt we have a wonderful relationship,and when he was well he felt that too. Unless you walk in the shoes it is very hard and frustrating. Juat like any illness that you cannot prevent. It isnt anyones fault...it is a chemical imbalance, some take well to meds, others not. Education is important.

Christina

Monday, February 25, 2002 - 04:45 am Click here to edit this post
I just reread your post sun and wanted to add something. Regarding doing something for these people when they are sick. It comes down to rights again. People also wont take responsibility for another because when they are well , the other person helping can also get blamed for all the wrong reasons. See, when I wanted my other to go to hospital,during an acute episode, his parents stepped in and wouldnt let me take him. They figured it would look terrible for him and such. They waited 3 days until I was going to call police. They decided then to take him. They still feel they were right and I feel I was right. So everyone has there own proffessional opinion. I want too add that you guys are a very understanding group and love being able to vent this to someone. Thanks

Karuuna

Monday, February 25, 2002 - 08:25 am Click here to edit this post
You raise a good point, SunshineMiss, about the Mental Health Act of the 60's. The idea was to deinstitutionalize mental health care, because of the awful conditions of mental health hospitals. It was also motivated by the advent of anti-psychotic drugs, which meant that those who had to be hospitalized could be self-sufficient with medication. But the second part of the act was to institute Community Mental Health centers that would provide care, counseling, group living environments and medical/psychological evaluations. Unfortunately the funding part for the Health Centers was never passed by the legislature.

It is true that those with mental illness often think they are absolutely fine. I remember a time when my father stopped leaving his apartment, even to go to work. He had become convinced that the ongoing road construction around the city where he lived was aimed at him. That each time he drove on a road, the next day they would purposefully dig it up and close it due to construction. He insisted that he had to stop going out, or pretty soon he wouldn't have any escape routes left. No amount of rational explanation could undo that amount of delusion. Since he refused to go on medication (another conspiracy!), there was really nothing I could do.

Whowhere

Monday, February 25, 2002 - 08:41 am Click here to edit this post
I started this thread and choose to not state my opinion, as I have a VERY strong one and am very emotional about this entire subject.

Here is the Yates family web page that Rusty has created. Lots of pictures and video of those poor children, as well as their parents.

http://www.yateskids.org/

Oregonfire

Monday, February 25, 2002 - 03:37 pm Click here to edit this post
My dad's mentally ill too (bipolar) and hasn't been able to work in 20 years. There have been many violent close calls with him--he's often been on the verge of being completely out of control. It's a bloody miracle that nothing truly horrible has happened to or because of him. If it weren't for my sister acting as guardian, he'd be out on the streets or in a halfway house. I'm hoping that Post Partum Psychosis is a mental illness that "goes away," because bipolar disorder never does. Finding out when I was little that my dad was "sick" was like finding out that there is no Santa Claus. (I've chosen not to deal with him much, so no sympathy vibes in my direction!)

Christina

Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 05:31 am Click here to edit this post
bipolar has so many classifications. I must be lucky because my other (bipolar) can function as well as the rest of us. Mind you when he is sick ughhh. I know exactly how you feel when you said Oregon that there was no Santa. At first, I didnt know what to do. I got educated atleast, but yeah, when the times come it is hard. Mental illness is so difficult to understand. I have alsoworked in the field for 22 years. Probably gives me more understanding. When I see the Yates case and others like it , I am not always quick to blame anymore. As I have stated before it is a chemical imbalance in the brain. The same as a valve not working properly in the heart and some times we have a stroke and sometimes meds are the answer. But its is a life time sickness and that person never asked for it. I certainly understand where your coming from, because, you never really know when or what is next. Some people are worse off than others. I am not saying either that the Yates woman cannot be held responsible in some way, at least she should have to commit herself to some intensive care, for a while. Ofcouse this is all my opinion.

Jville

Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 07:18 am Click here to edit this post
Excerpts from Yates' television interview
The following is from Sunday's 60 Minutes interview by Ed Bradley with Russell Yates, who spoke about the mental stability of his wife, who is accused of drowning their five children at their Clear Lake home.
At the request of 60 Minutes, the entire transcript is no longer available from HoustonChronicle.com.

YATES:
I don't blame her a bit. And that's, I mean people find that just outrageous, I know. But I don't, I don't blame her one bit, you know.
...If she received the medical treatment that she deserved, then the kids would be alive and well. And Andrea would be well on her way to recovery. And we'd be unknown.

BRADLEY, speaking about Andrea Yates' mental condition earlier this year when she was discharged from Devereux Hospital after a 12-day stay:
While she said she was feeling much better, hospital records show she had improved but still exhibited "paranoid thought patterns, impaired judgment, and was described as 'somber, flat, and withdrawn.'"
YATES:
I mean there's not, there's absolutely no reason she should have been let out of that hospital. It was just incomprehensible.

BRADLEY, speaking about Andrea Yates' appointments with Dr. Mohammed Saeed as an outpatient:
...Two weeks before the murders he stopped her anti-psychotic medication, indicating that she was developing serious side effects. She stayed on anti-depressants.
YATES:
The doctor took her off her anti-psychotic medicine, when she'd, had psychosis. I mean, he diagnosed her himself. Postpartum depression with psychosis.
BRADLEY:
Rusty Yates says, and medical records confirm, just two days before she killed the children he took Andrea to see Dr. Saeed at his office and told him her condition was deteriorating. He adjusted the dosage and her anti-depressants.
Were you hoping that he would hospitalize her that day?
YATES:
I didn't actually come out and say it. But yeah, we were desperate. I mean, we were desperate. She was so sick. And I was at my wits' end. I mean, I, I'm just like, she's been sick for this long. Help us. And he ended the meeting with, by giving her a pep talk. And he kind of looks at Andrea and he gets in her face and says: "Andrea you need to think positive thoughts. Not negative thoughts. You need to think more positively."

Jville

Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 07:22 am Click here to edit this post
He knew she was sick, needed to be hospitalized and still chose to leave her alone with those kids. You don't leave someone who's been diagnosed with having Postpartum depression with psychosis alone with FIVE children. Think about it. He claims she should have NEVER been released from the hospital, but she was, and HE made the decision to leave his severely mentally unstable wife alone with HIS children, his own flesh and blood. He's an accessory.

BTW - definition of psychosis -A severe mental disorder, with or without organic damage, characterized by derangement of personality and loss of contact with reality and causing deterioration of normal social functioning.

Would you leave some you love alone with a person who has a severe mental disorder, when you yourself think they desperately need to be hospitalized???? I wouldn't and he shouldn't have either.

I wouldn't even leave my daughter alone with her great-grandmother, who was a wonderful person and I loved and respected her more than anyone in my life, but, she had an aneurism that could have burst at any moment. I didn't want to risk the chance that she would be a witness to her grandmother passing out and possibly dying. No, I didn't EXPECT that it would happen, but I thought that it was a real possibility. I wasn't willing to take the chance.

Responsible parents think about things like that. What if.......

Twiggyish

Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 07:48 am Click here to edit this post
Exactly. He also could have done something to prevent the next pregnancy. (In extreme cases, snip snip vasectomy)

Grooch

Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 08:41 am Click here to edit this post
This is what I heard. He had to leave for work. His mother was on her way over to watch over Andrea but she was running late. I am assuming he knew not to leave her alone with the kids, but I guess for some reason, he chanced that bit of time he did leave her alone.

Imagine taking care of someone with her condition plus taking care of all those kids. There really is no support out there for people in these situations.

Insurance usually does not cover these conditions, so you are on your own. I am sure he is probably worried about losing his job on top of it. He has probably called in numerous times to take the day off to handle the situation, or went to work late, handling things. His position is worse than being a single parent.

Plus, Andrea had rights. He can't force her to do anything or have the doctor tell him what she is saying in there.

I am sure he was frazzled at his wits end and exhausted and made bad judgement calls. I certainly wouldn't want to be in his position.

He never should have had children with her. That ws his mistake. And now he is paying for it for the rest of his life.

AS to Andrea, it is obvious that she is insane. She had been hearing voices in her head for years telling her to do this. She may "say" she knows right from wrong, but people with these conditions have no control. So I don't understand the death penalty.

But I do believe she should be locked up in a mental facility for the rest of her life. Not prison. She should be helped, but she shouldn't be let loose again. Because if she does become well again through medication, what would be stopping her from going off them again, or any other problems.

Christina

Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 09:52 am Click here to edit this post
yeah grooch, thats what else I wanted to say. Thanks ,

Twiggyish

Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 10:14 am Click here to edit this post
I agree, you have good points Grooch! I just hope this case serves to help others in this situation.

Jville

Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 10:39 am Click here to edit this post
The Accomplices Of Andrea Yates

by Cindy Hasz

(AR) -- It's been over two weeks now since Andrea Yates killed her five children. Immediately after it happened I heard snippets of news about the horror, and saw the supposedly grief-stricken father holding a family photo out on the lawn of the family home as he talked poignantly about his wife's mental illness.
I successfully avoided letting it touch me for awhile -- I went numb. I saw Marie Osmond on talk shows talking about Post-Partum Depression -- everyone jumped on the PPD bandwagon. It was the tidy answer to the unthinkable: a mother who kills her babies.

That had to be it. Yates was another woman who fell over the hormonal edge into the abyss of a peculiarly feminine psychosis.

And the father! Can you imagine his grief? Yet even in the magnitude of his loss, modeling (as one expert in the field wrote) "an incredibly humane response," he assured us how much he loved his wife. In an interview for Time magazine Rusty Yates offered his reflections in an "eerily lucid, coherent" (read detached) way about what responsibility he might have had in all this. I still felt confused. There was something missing.

As I read about her history, I found myself absolutely amazed to find that Andrea Yates had been on the powerful antipsychotic, Haldol. As a portrait of a woman struggling desperately to meet expectations emerged against a background of significant others who were equally out of touch, I found myself up on my feet and raging about the systemic failure that led to a preventable loss of so much innocent life.

As a medical professional familiar with Haldol, I know it is not your ordinary pick-me-up or mood stabilizer. It is an infamous anti-psychotic that should throw up a red flag to anyone in the field that a serious psychosis is present. DANGER is what Haldol says to psychiatry professionals.

The thought of someone on this medication caring for one child alone is itself crazy. To have expected Andrea Yates to take care of five children when she had a known history of PPD, had already attempted suicide and was on Haldol is just plain unthinkable.

It's my experience -- one common to anyone working with families -- that rarely is just one person in a family "ill" to such an extreme degree. Carl Jung, the famous Swiss psychoanalysist, observed that many times the one who the family presents as having "all the problems" is simply mirroring the pain, dysfunction and yes, evil that the others refuse to acknowledge.

This is what I see in the Yates case, but analysis aside, I'd like to ask some simple questions:

Where was this devoted "humanitarian" of a father -- a literal rocket scientist -- as his wife cared for their five children and her own ailing father, whose death two months before the murders reportedly devastated her? Why did Rusty Yates not get her help (with childcare, schooling, counseling) that she so obviously needed?

Why didn't he give his children the protection they needed?

What sane parent would jeopardize his children's welfare if there was even the potential that harm could come to them?

Rusty Yates knew his dutiful wife was going over the edge. In the Time interview he said he watched her as "she just spiraled down." He spoke like some catatonic air traffic controller who sees a plane is in serious trouble and sits back to watch what happens next.

Just what lurks in the heart of this man? Andrea's brother, Brian Kennedy, alludes to it, I believe, when he says, "The truth will eventually come out"

Andrea Yates should be held accountable for her actions, but I think she should not be the only one in prison. Rusty Yates, the high-profile "Christian" who found it necessary to pray before, during and after simple outdoor activities with his children, ought to be thoroughly examined -- so religious in the outside world and yet so hard- hearted with his wife and children at home.

Sadly, it is not rare to find an overtly religious person being quietly cruel to his or her family. Such exhibitionist religious behavior often belies an underlying imbalance and rigidity. In an atmosphere of competition and repression that was apparently the Yates family culture, ungodly things can flourish.

Yes, I think Rusty Yates, who looks as squeaky clean as the bathtub his children drowned in, ought to be locked up instead of his wife for callously ignoring his wife's needs (if not worse) and for criminal neglect of his children.

Maybe you think I am being too hard on poor Mr. Yates -- unfairly singling him out for blame. All right, I'll pass the blame around. How's this:

The doctors and nurses involved in this case who simply turned the other way when they should have intervened to save this pitiful woman and her children belong there, too. Doctors, nurses and social workers are legally bound to report to the appropriate protective agency a suspected incident of abuse, and are under at least a moral obligation to act decisively when abuse is not only possible but probable.

This hits home for me, because I recently lost my job protecting a frail, elderly woman from a potentially abusive situation. There was a price to pay when the business entities involved did not appreciate my proactive approach. But the patient and her family did, and that's all that matters to me.

Anyone who paid attention to the very unambiguous medical aspects of this case -- which clearly dictated an appropriate path of action -- would tell you that we don't leave children alone with a suicidal psychotic and then wonder why they were murdered; PPD was not the prime suspect here.

Yes, the principals in this case will most likely hide behind the "complexities" involved -- Andrea's illness and other convenient smokescreens which absolve the conscience from passivity -- but in this case the prescription was crystal clear.

Protect the children.

Andrea Yates was going down for the final time. They all suspected it. Her husband knew it. She needed someone to throw her a lifejacket. But no one cared enough to intervene. They couldn't get up enough moxie to lift a finger to save her from drowning in her own sea of psychosis and taking her little ones with her. That is the real pathology.

Karuuna

Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 10:50 am Click here to edit this post
Grooch - you do have some good points. It is extraordinarily difficult to be responsible for someone so mentally ill. And five kids as well. You're right that it's easy to get exhausted and frustrated and make bad judgment calls. But sometimes bad judgment does get punished legally as well. Perhaps the loss of his children is punishment enough. I'm not one to say.

Even if his mother was running late, I have to wonder how late she was to allow time for Andrea to fill the tub, take "several minutes" to drown each child, and even chase one of them down?

It's not that I don't sympathize somewhat with Rusty. Let's even say that since these problems didn't crop up until after the first child was born, it wasn't really a mistake to have Noah. But after that?

And I still can't get over leaving her alone with the children, even for a few minutes, or whatever he thought it was going to be. When my son was 2 months old, my alcoholic mother came to visit. I never even left them alone in the same room, even tho she'd never threatened to kill anyone. And even tho it made her plenty angry at me, because I didn't trust her. There was simply nothing more important to me than ensuring that my son was safe.

This is also a man who made Andrea live in a bus for a couple of years (with 4 children), because he like the "simple lifestyle", even tho he was making $80 grand a year. He only finally bought a house at the urging of friends and family, because they thought it might help Andrea. Methinks that Rusty has a few thought problems of his own.

Whowhere

Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 11:27 am Click here to edit this post
Excellent post Jville. I think Cindy hit it right on the head. I completely agree with you too, Kar.

Dahli

Tuesday, February 26, 2002 - 12:56 pm Click here to edit this post
Amen Jville - Excellent post. That gave me goosebumps plus you made all my earlier points better than I was or am currently capable of. Thank you.