Andrea Yates confession

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Spygirl

Monday, March 18, 2002 - 06:11 am Click here to edit this post
I just watched all of the exclusives on the Today Show and I have some thoughts brewing about this. I was really bothered by the interview of the three jurors -- Lil (or Lilly) in particular. I'm gonna take the day to think about this and then come back with my thoughts.

spy

Twiggyish

Monday, March 18, 2002 - 06:22 am Click here to edit this post
Spy, Lil bothered me, too. She was extremely strict in her conviction of Andrea. It makes me wonder why she was chosen as juror. (imho)
I'm curious about your thoughts on her.

Karuuna

Monday, March 18, 2002 - 08:24 am Click here to edit this post
Sabbatia, I think there is a vast difference between shooting a convenience store clerk in the course of a robbery, and hearing voices and drowning your children because you think you're saving them from the devil. So I don't know if I agree with the idea that you have to "somewhat insane" to kill anyone.

I think she continued to have babies partially because she was pressured by her husband to do so, and partially because she didn't understand the nature of her own illness -- which is part of the illness itself.

The very fact that Andrea didn't deserve the death penalty because of her psychosis, and that she will not get appropriate treatment or protection in prison is why I think she should have been institutionalized instead.

Having had a schizophrenic father, and knowing that I could well have inherited it from him, or my son can, I find the lack of understanding about mental illness very frightening.

Spygirl

Monday, March 18, 2002 - 06:13 pm Click here to edit this post
Okay...I've not gotten all of my ideas out, but this trial is bringing out a lot of discussion in my classes. The idea of biologically based mental illness is not widely accepted in my field of study (marriage and family therapy -- MFT). MFT is based on the belief that the human interaction is where problems arise. In other words, relationships can manifest "dysfunction" (although dysfunction is also not a word embraced by this line of thinking). In fact, the original studies of schizophrenia were done by early marriage and family therapists. The results of their studies were that schizophrenia could be treated by doing therapy with the families of the schizophrenic person.

Okay, that was more than you ever wanted to know.

Anyway, I have never totally bought the idea that problems are only interactionally based. I was trained in a more "postmodern" institute that taught the biopsychosocial model that believes biology, psychology, and social context all play a factor in what makes us who we are.

I said all of that to say that I am very troubled by this whole trial for many different reasons. First, because it is sparking more division in my field about "why the medical community is out of control". Second, because people still seem to not understand what happens when people have a psychotic episode.

I think the medical community failed this woman miserably. She was taken off of Haldol just two weeks before she committed these murders. It took me 6 weeks to get off of a very mild antidepressant, Effexor, without suffering from any of the side effects that come from termination of treatment. Plus, that is just enough time to send her into a full blown psychotic episode. And this doctor removed her from the medication despite knowing that she had repeatedly tried and thought about killing herself. We are trained to assess whether clients are in danger of harming themselves OR someone else. If this doctor did not assess this, then this doctor is in serious threat of malpractice.

But what is hard for people to understand is how she could possibly have called the cops and asked when her trial was if she was insane. In her mind, she was driven by the psychotic belief that she was saving her children from satan and a terrible mother by killing them. She did this even knowing that it was against the law. I won't go on about this, but if this woman wasn't legally insane, then no one is. I really believe that.

Next, the interview with her husband today. I believe that this man did whatever he could have given the circumstance of the situation. I fully believe that this man never in a million years dreamed that his wife would ever do this. Just remember that it is much easier to look back and see things that in the moment did not connect. It happens all the time when reading mystery novels. The characters in the book just overlook things that the reader sees and knows what will happen in the future. The problem is that the book doesn't include the 445,970 other things that go on in a day that don't have any relevance to a central theme. He will suffer guilt for the rest of his life because he was not able to "put it together" before it was too late. Is he legally guilty? Not in my opinion. I've seen too many people who try to help their mentally ill loved ones who are simply not able to force them to seek treatment or who aren't able to force the doctors to see what they see. In this case, he did attempt to get her treatment several different times.

Okay -- what about the fact that they kept having children. Well, to this I say...probably the only rway Andrea viewed herself was as a mother. She hadn't always viewed herself as a terrible mother. It only began in recent years and got progressively worse in that time. At least three of the children were already born before things began to be worse than in typical post-pardum depression. I'm sure she -- just like MOST OF America -- was just not able to understand how such beautiful creatures could exacerbate a mental illness -- much less cause it by bringing them into the world. That isn't something that a woman is supposed to think about her children. And she likely defined herself as a mother, so why wouldn't she continue to have them if she didn't connect it with her mental illness. That is the catch -- the mentally ill aren't able to see things like that -- and sometimes, neither are the family members around. That is for professionals to assess.


Which brings me to my last thought before I rip apart the jurors on TV today. I believe that this trial will save millions of women and families tons of heartache and suffering. This trial and her plight has brought to light the seriousness of mental illness and how it simply defies all rational, logical thought. It is a shame that it brings out those how still want to blame the husband. I believe that is just our society's ingrained need to find a cause and blame one person or situation. There is rarely one person or situation that is to blame. Maybe this is a genetic condition she got. So maybe we need to blame her parents for not getting it diagnosed sooner, or for giving birth to her and passing it down. Maybe it was her husband who "forced" her to continue having children (although she had every say in the situation -- even if he was a controlling jerk). Maybe it was her faith that may have prevented her from using birth control. Or maybe it was the doctor who took her off of Haldol -- or the other doctors who missed her diagnosis.

My point is this -- we have to stop constantly looking to blame someone. She and only she can be responsible for what happened and she is receiving her punishment set forth by the laws of our country. I think she should have been declared guilty by reason of insanity, but my opinion doesn't matter.


Finally (and i'll be brief here), those jurors today really really hacked me off. Lil acted like the whole situation was a movie on the big screen there for her personal viewing pleasure. When asked if she would have liked for Andrea to take the stand, she said (to some effect), "Yeah, I would have liked to see that. That would have been very interesting to watch."

They seemed flippant, uncaring, and a bit disinterested in this woman's fate. They back peddled after first saying the Texas law of not being able to know what her fate would have been had they found her insane did not have any relevance in their decision, to saying that if they could have, they probably would have found her guilty by reason of insanity (which you can't do in TX). That sounds to me like they believed she was insane but they had to "stick by" their decision no matter what the outcome for this woman or anyone in the future in this situation.

Okay -- this is by far the longest post I've made in MANY MANY months. I'm not even gonna proofread, so if it makes no sense -- SORRY!

spy

Twiggyish

Monday, March 18, 2002 - 06:25 pm Click here to edit this post
Wow. That was well written. I can see your point in many areas. I can also see where the husband could have prevented this by choosing not to have children.
He has also made statements regarding a new wife and children. This bothers me about him.

Maybe none of us will ever know what happened. I don't think justice was served in this case. It's a terrible shame.

Soeur

Monday, March 18, 2002 - 07:51 pm Click here to edit this post
I just watched Rusty Yates on Larry King and found him to be very compelling. This is not a case that I have an opinion about regarding guilt or innocence. It is one that has elicited a horrifed fascination and a sense of incomprehensibility. I can't understand this. Assigning blame does not seem to serve any purpose other than as a way of highlighting ways to catch the signs in a future situation and prevent another tragedy from unfolding. Imagining the horror of what happened to Noah, John, Paul, Luke and Mary is so chilling and so sad. Here in Canada there has been a spate of situations recently where fathers have killed their children. It is sickening and very disturbing.

Sabbatia

Monday, March 18, 2002 - 08:08 pm Click here to edit this post
Yeah, I can see her points too. This whole case is really confusing to me, as it is to everybody. With the husband, I can see how he can live in denial. I remember one night in particular when my Dad was dying, that my husband chose to turn up the TV and ignore me instead of conforting his crying wife. I spent three months practically alone in this house after it was all over, leaving the house once a week for food. My emotional health was never addressed, even though several years earlier, I had been treated with antidepressants, and have had one kind of anti-anxiety med or another tossed at me since I was a teenager. I"m not defending him, I'm just saying sometimes, it's hard for them to face up to the way things are. On the other hand, when it came to my physical well being, he was a doll when I had three surgeries in two years. Anyway, sometimes, it is hard to face up to reality. Like her, he was and is living in a reality that he has created in his head. As for him saying she should have not gotten out of the hospital, I remember when a friend of mine needed to put his sister in the state hospital for drug abuse, it seems to me like two close family member were about all it would take to have her put in against her will. In other words, if he felt that way, he could have found a way for her to stay in an institution. Of course, we all know about hindsight.

On the other hand, I'd love to excuse her for what she's done...but it's really hard. To hear of wasted baby lives, when I'm someone that can't have babies makes it even more of an emotional issue. I can't get past her hair being gound in the oldest child's hand....and I know there are things said in court that we don't know. There always are.

I turned off the TV today when the jury members were on, because I didn't want to start off the day angry.

I wish she could get treatment and be in prison. I'd hate to see her put in an institution and be out again having babies in a year or two.

Told ya it was all confusing!! I have very mixed feelings.....as someone that's been treated for depression, as someone that can't have children, and as someone that has seen first class denial. So, as my own denial, I'm not watching anymore news! It just puts me in a funk.

Christina

Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 05:08 am Click here to edit this post
Well said spygirl, You took lots of words right out of my mouth. Never seem to have the time to post myself. I also find it very difficult to write all the thoughts down to make sense. I pray that Andrea Yates gets some help. It will be awful though when she fully recognizes the extent of what she has done. I think she must be very medicated right now. This woman has an awful long and hard road ahead of her. I honestly feel that if she could undo this horrible mess, she would. A person in there right mind would never do such a terrible thing.

Teddybear

Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 08:44 am Click here to edit this post
Have any of yall been here yet?

http://www.yateskids.org/

Angelnikki

Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 02:42 pm Click here to edit this post
teddybear, that page is soooooooooooooo sad i cannot even stay there long. i clicked on Noah's pictures and started cryed and i still am. Oh man why did this have to happen to these beautiful kids. Children are so innocent. I cant look at those pictures.

Julieboo

Tuesday, March 19, 2002 - 02:53 pm Click here to edit this post
Spygirl, that was a great post! You took a lot of words out of my mouth too. (And I think you only had one typo in that whole thing "post pardum"). I hope people take the time out to read it all.

Bigsister

Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 06:17 am Click here to edit this post
I have read every post in this thread and followed this case with great interest, but I have not written about my experiences with mental illness because it is too painful. But I am thinking if one person can gain some measure of understanding, maybe it is worth it. So here goes.

My daughter Patty was a normal 27 year-old single mom, struggling to support herself and her daughter and go to college. She lived only a few blocks from us, and we saw her about once or twice a week. The first indication we had of her illness was when early one morning she brought her daughter to our house to stay because the "bad guys" were after her and it was not safe for her to go to school. I knew immediately that something was terribly wrong with Patty. I later realized she was having a full blown psychotic episode, hearing voices, having delusions, etc. But she could not believe the problem was within her; she was certain that she really had been chosen to have this superhuman ability to communicate with "them" - whomever it was. She stubbornly refused to get medical treatment - why should she - nothing was wrong with her.

Her delusions varied from time to time. One time she thought she was an alien sent her from another planet on some kind of special mission. She devoured the TV news because that was where she received her special instructions, in code of course, so no one else could understand. At one period she believed the police were "the enemy" and hated and distrusted all policemen. Naturally she was unable to care properly for her daughter during this time. She also lost her job and became a tremendous drain on us financially.

Finally in desperation I went to the Prosecuting Attorney's office and swore out a warrant to have her committed. That was the hardest thing I had ever done in my life, but in this state it was the only way I could force her to get help. (Even so, she could not be put in the hospital against her will unless she was deemed to be an imminent threat to harm herself or others, and she had never given any indication of any violent tendencies.) After she was served the papers to appear in court, she finally gave in and agreed to get medical treatment if I would drop the proceedings, so I did. I really had doubts it would be successful even if I stayed with it.

Patty was diagnosed with paranoid Schizophrenia. For the next few months she dallied with her doctors and therapists but never did admit, to herself or anyone else, that she was sick and generally refused to take her medication. She resisted every effort to help her and felt that no one understood. Finally, after about six months of struggle, she committed suicide. She gave no warning and left no note. As suddenly as her illness came upon her (and us), it was over.

I can understand Russell Yates not knowing, not suspecting, not believing, what might happen. Anyone who has not been there just does not know what a terrible struggle mental illness can be and what terrible turns it can take.

Twiggyish

Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 06:29 am Click here to edit this post
One thing is clear, we all have strong opinions on this subject.

Cablejockey

Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 07:21 am Click here to edit this post
This morning on Good Morning America they had Andrea Yates neighbors and friends. They said they knew something was wrong and tried to talk to Rusty but he would hear nothing about his wife having problems, he said he would not hold her hand or coddle her.

Christina

Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 09:29 am Click here to edit this post
My heart goes out to you big sister. I to feel that others do need to hear of the experiences that the people who live with these issues live through. Each experience is different,difficult and unpredictable. If only we had a crystal ball. I feel these posts really educate. Thats what is important to me.

Oregonfire

Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 09:56 am Click here to edit this post
Big Sister, that is terrible. I'm sorry for your loss. I wish that more research was done in this area; I feel like we're in the Dark Ages. I bet in a hundred years or more, people will look back on the way we treat mental illness and the mentally ill with horror, like using leeches in the Middle Ages!

I'm hoping that advances in gene therapy will address some of these illnesses, because as a society, we need to do better than this.

Babyruth

Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 11:44 am Click here to edit this post
Bis Sis, thanks so much for sharing your painful story with us. ((((((((((((((BigSis))))))))))))))

Your desire to increase public understanding of the complex issue of mental illness is very important and much appreciated.

I agree with you, Christina and others that the education of patients, families, and the general public is the most important step toward a humane response to the mentally ill. Only by understanding the biological basis of severe mental illness will there be justice and compassion for those afflicted and their families.

Sharing personal stories is a wonderful act of educating and giving, and it means a lot. Thanks so much!

Juju2bigdog

Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 11:47 am Click here to edit this post
So sorry for your loss, Bigsister.

Moondance

Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 11:54 am Click here to edit this post
So sorry BigSis... thank you for sharing your story. I pray that mental illness will soon be looked upon in a different light and more energy goes into the system to help the patients and families.

Oregonfire

Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 11:58 am Click here to edit this post
Schizophrenia Gene Suspected

Wired News Report

12:30 p.m. April 28, 2000 PDT
Scientists have moved one step closer to homing in on a gene responsible for schizophrenia.

A researcher at the University of Toronto said Thursday she had localized the "neighborhood" that one of the genes lives in.

Anne Bassett, associate professor of psychiatry at the university, led the 12-year study of 300 Canadians in 22 families with a high incidence of schizophrenia.

"If we compare the human genome to a map of the world and gene localizing to finding the neighborhood the gene lives in, previous studies have been able to say that there may be a gene in North America, maybe even in Canada," she said.

"Our study tells us that there is a gene predisposing to schizophrenia in the neighborhood of downtown Toronto and that we should be able to pinpoint the exact location in the next step of the research."

Schizophrenia is a severe psychiatric disorder characterized by hallucinations, delusions, and an altered emotional and behavioral state. It generally manifests during late adolescence or early adulthood. Experts say the disease afflicts about 1 percent of the population in the U.S. and Canada, and is the second-most common mental illness next to depression.

Researcher Linda Brzustowicz of Rutgers University pinpointed the gene to a small region of chromosome 1.

"This finding is very strong," Brzustowicz said. "This is approximately 100 times stronger evidence for the existence of a schizophrenia gene than reported in previous studies."

Although previous research has indicated that schizophrenics have a genetic predisposition to the disease, this is the first study to pinpoint an actual gene neighborhood. The researchers say the next step will be to locate the gene itself.

www.wired.com

Weinermr

Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 11:59 am Click here to edit this post
{{{{Bigsister}}}}
Thank you for having the courage to share with us Bigsister, and so sorry for your tremendous loss.

Bigsister

Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 12:00 pm Click here to edit this post
Thanks to all of you for your kind and supportive words. It was really hard to write that story. I failed to mention one thing which I think is important - that I do feel great compassion for Andrea Yates, just as I did for my daughter. I can well believe that Andrea could have taken her children's lives with the full knowledge that it was against the law but still believing in her delusional state that it was morally right.

Twiggyish

Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 12:02 pm Click here to edit this post
I agree with Mr. Weiner. Thank you Bigsis.

Meme9

Wednesday, March 20, 2002 - 01:57 pm Click here to edit this post
Thank you for sharing your story with us.
I can't even amagine how I could have handled that situation and loss...anyway love and hugs to you and your Grandaughter!!!

Sometimes when I get to feeling down, I think of all the things that could be worst and then my troubles don't seem to big, your story and your courage will stay with me for sometime..Thank you.

Kearie

Monday, March 25, 2002 - 10:49 am Click here to edit this post
(((BigSister)))

So sorry about your loss. Thank you so much for courage in sharing.

I didn't follow much of the Yates trial. I know originally it was said that she suffered post-partum depression when she killed her kids. That was enough information for me to believe she had serious mental illnesses.

I find it sad, but I don't believe this tragedy will greatly effect how the mentally ill population will be treated.

That would take compassion. In this day and age people aren't valued. Government money is not spent on social service jobs. Mentally ill people often can not afford treatment and medication and are often left with government paid counseling and treatment. From experience, I can say these facilities are more than lacking in education and compassion. I don't see this changing because of the Yates tragedy.

Until individuals can stand up and say, "I suffer a mental illness" there will always be a cloud shame surrounding those effected. There will always be a tendancy to avoid treatment. And there will always be a fear and judgement of the general population.

I must also say that no one can understand mental illness unless they have lived with it. Psychiatrist don't have compassion, they have book knowledge. They can perscribe the right medacations but they can't understand the pain and shame that their patient goes through.

I hope that things change for the mentally ill, but I'm not very optimistic.

Whowhere

Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 05:56 am Click here to edit this post
Rosenthal weighs more charges in Yates case
By CAROL CHRISTIAN - Houston Chronicle

Maintaining the stance he took the day Andrea Pia Yates was sentenced to life in prison, Harris County District Attorney Chuck Rosenthal said again Monday he had assigned a member of his staff to look into the possibility of more charges in the case.
Rosenthal reiterated that it is too soon to talk about any potential charges, but media speculation has focused on Yates' husband, Russell Yates.
The 37-year-old Clear Lake mother, who drowned her five children and then pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity, was convicted March 12 of two charges of capital murder. The jury of eight women and four men sentenced her March 15 to life in prison.
Rosenthal has said several times that his office would not rush into any investigation of Russell Yates or anyone else connected to the case. He said only that he has assigned someone not involved in the initial case to "look at it."
"Right now, there's a vigilante mentality," he said. "We don't want to cave to that."
Yates was transferred Thursday from the Harris County Jail to a prison unit near Rusk, about 160 miles north of Houston. She will be there at least 30 days undergoing psychological and medical evaluations, prison officials said.
Yates will be eligible for parole after 40 years, receiving credit for the nine months she served in jail after her arrest June 20.
Yates called police to her home that morning and confessed to drowning Noah, 7; John, 5; Paul, 3; Luke, 2; and Mary, 6 months, in their bathtub. She was charged with capital murder in the killings of Noah, John and Mary.
While published reports have said Rosenthal's office may prosecute Russell Yates on charges of either child endangerment or negligent homicide, Rosenthal said Monday those reports were incorrect.
He said he had told a Newsweek reporter he had assigned someone to "see if anybody is guilty of anything." When the reporter asked for specifics, Rosenthal said he responded: "I don't know. The Texas Code of Criminal Procedures covers a lot of ground. I have no idea, but one (possibility) off the top of my head might be child endangerment."
Rosenthal noted Monday that Texas law allows prosecution for crimes of omission as well as commission.
"But are we going anyplace in particular? No," Rosenthal said. "Are we going to stampede? No. We're not going to do anything until we're sure what the facts are going to be."
But he said anyone guilty of contributing to the children's deaths will be prosecuted.
"If anyone had any criminal culpability with respect to those kids, I want to know about it," he said. "I want to see if we can prove it."
Russell Yates' attorney, Edward Mallett, said Monday it is Rosenthal's job to investigate crimes, but he doesn't believe his client committed any offense.
"He is a victim by the very definition in the penal code -- the next of kin of a victim of homicide," Mallett said. "It's an awful thing. A man who has lost his children and his wife now becomes the subject of gossip reported as though it's news."

Bigsister

Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 02:13 pm Click here to edit this post
Kearie, you make some good points about the lack of understanding of and help available to people with mental illness. Typically, most medical insurance provides for far less coverage for mental illness than for physical. I suspect this is rooted in the old attitude that they need to just snap out of it, that it is "all in their heads", to make a very bad pun. I can see that public awareness of mental illness has progressed a tiny bit since it became a part of my personal life, but our society still has a long, long way to go.

Kearie

Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 11:40 pm Click here to edit this post
Another note---

Most insurance companies only pay 50% of psychiatric treatment. I find most individuals see psych's for medicine...like $80 for a 20 minute med check. Counseling, actually, comes from therapists with master's degrees, which most insurance companies don't cover.

I know what you mean about it all "being in your head", pulling yourself up by the boot straps" and "stop feeling sorry for yourself" causing many people negative attitudes towards mentally ill people.

It's a shame that they don't have to walk a mile....