Synchronicity
The ClubHouse: Archive: Synchronicity
Twiggyish | Saturday, September 01, 2001 - 09:46 am   Those of you from last year will remember this topic. I was trying to find something on it when I found this interesting site. It has a free meditation flash movie and tape, which is 10 minutes long. I clicked on the meditation link in (in the middle of the head) and was treated to a very calming and soothing experience. They have a free sample of their product there. Soo in light of all the tension lately (in the BB side).. Take a minute to breathe and relax.. http://www.synchronicity.org/ |
Ocean_Islands | Sunday, September 02, 2001 - 01:01 am   What a strange coincidence that you created this thread! I was just thinking about my favorite topic! |
Twiggyish | Sunday, September 02, 2001 - 12:00 pm   LOL We should discuss it all again. That was so fascinating. |
Twiggyish | Sunday, September 02, 2001 - 01:07 pm   I thought the site was a joke when I first clicked. Here is the Webster Dictionary definition of the word: Main Entry: syn·chro·nic·i·ty Pronunciation: "si[ng]-kr&-'ni-s&-tE, sin- Function: noun Date: circa 1889 1 : the quality or fact of being synchronous 2 : the coincidental occurrence of events and especially psychic events (as similar thoughts in widely separated persons or a mental image of an unexpected event before it happens) that seem related but are not explained by conventional mechanisms of causality -- used especially in the psychology of C. G. Jung For example: I was humming a song and then I heard it on the radio. |
Moondance | Sunday, September 02, 2001 - 07:15 pm   This is one thread I would like to see happen!... I missed the first one because I was in the game! Come one come all... this sounds interesting |
Whit4you | Monday, September 10, 2001 - 11:42 pm   Twig - the syncronicty thread was my ALL-TIME favorite thread online...'eva' I will never forget the first time I read it... I had been gone (faint) a few days.. and when I first read it there were bout 120 post to it and as I read it I was thinking.. um this is too weird... deep...strange...confusing... intense.. and so on and as I got further in the thread - I saw peeps I respected and admired saying basicqlly the same thing " this is too deep" or "intense" or "mentally challenging" or what have you... for me.. i doubt we can ever recapture it..specially since it died (something else was going on at the time) but I would sure love to.. I wonder if we could petition the mods to repost that thread .. it's still in the archives (I have it) or maybe we could repost a few dozen of the original posts to get it "going" again. I dunno the moment... the feeling - the intensity of that thread perhaps can never be regained but I would sure love to try... it had my mind going in incredible directions There were so many depths to it - so many different inuendos and ideals going on at once. Everythign said had double meanings - sometimes triple meanings I swear - in the 7+ years I've been online nothing ever taxed my mental thought processes as much as that thread and nothing made me feel better then to see some peeps that I respected SAYING (remember I was reading this days after it started) ... I'm backing slowly out of this thread, cause it made me feel like I wasn't the ONLY one who thought the thread was a bit too deep... LOL Anyhow - as I said I doubt we can ever really recapture the "moment" but I'd lvoe to try - I'll give the mods a few days to see this and consider reposting the original thresad to feed on if they dont wanna or can't perhaps we can post our top 10 or so fav post from the thread ad food for thought... |
Whit4you | Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 12:11 am   testing to see if I can repost.... the old Syncronicty thread here....(just gonna repost part of day 1 ... I came in on day 3 I think... cean_Islands Wednesday, October 18, 2000 - 10:21 am Synchronicity is the mysterious phenomena of strange things happening for supposedly 'coincidental' reasons -- which may in fact be due to the forces of synchronicity. Let me tell you a story -- the Death Thread started me thinking about this. Many years ago, a man grew up in Nova Scotia and across his lifetime became a famous writer. When he became famous he traveled far and wide. But when he came home to Nova Scotia to visit, he always told his loved ones, "I want to be buried here, in our little village by the sea, in Nova Scotia, because I love it here so much and it has been so important to my formation as a human being." He always believed and understood that this would happen. Years later, a worldwide influenza epidemic is causing literally millions of deaths. Our writer from Nova Scotia is traveling in Texas on his many cultural engagements. He catches influenza and dies. So many people were dying, and the disease was so contagious, that victims had to be buried where they died. The Nova Scotia writer was buried along the Gulf Coast of Texas, far from his homeland. Flash to many years later -- during hurricane season -- the wind picks up and waves crash on the Texas coast as a hurricane arrives. The storm surge crashes on shore, and across the many hours of the hurricane's landfall, the local cemetery is inundated with water. Towns people are horrified to find that graves have burst open. Some of the coffins are watertight, and float away, out of sight. The Nova Scotia writer's coffin meets such a fate. Two years later, in Nova Scotia, in the writer's beloved little village by the sea, a young woman walking along the beach is startled to find a coffin on the sand. It is the writer's coffin. For in death, the writer had clung to his wish and had returned home to be buried. === This is a true story, well-documented. If you have trouble believing it, go to your local library and look up 'synchronicity' -- you are more than likely to find a book on the subject containing this mysterious and perplexing event. Sandyc Wednesday, October 18, 2000 - 11:03 am I've always believed synchronicity to be when two or more unconnected things happen at the same time and end up being for the same purpose. Coincidence is when two unconnected things happen at the same time. Add in the purpose and it becomes synchronicity. Sort of like fate getting things together in order to create a happening or understanding or state of being. The difference in understanding synchronicity seems to be the time factor. But yes... the writer ending up where he wanted to be... fulfilled his purpose. I always thought of synchronicity as being created by 'God' or 'Cosmic Consciousness' or whatever you call it. If that is so than there must be a reason 'cosmically' why his body needs to be there. Doesn't Jung have something to say about synchronicity? I can't quite remember. But I digress from my live feed duties. Great topic. Wcv63 Syncronicity has been called the root of coincidence. And yes SandyC, Jung became facinated with syncronicity and tried to prove the existence of odd but related coincidences with mathematical equations. "Portable Jung" I believe. Syncronicity can be described as seemingly totally unrelated events that all come together in one huge incredible coincidence. Sandyc I looked it up in my encyclopedic dictionary: "Synchronicity -- coincidence that is felt to be significant or meaningful; especially, in the philosophy of CG Jung, the simultaneous occurrence of two or more events that seem to be linked in a meaningful or significant way without apparently being causally related, as, for example, the sudden stopping of a clock at the moment of a person's death in the same vicinity." Which reminds me of a such an occurrance in my life... My three finches died at the same time as my brother died suddenly and unexpectedly. Within the same hour. Strange stuff. Adven39 I'll offer a contrary view just to be obtuse. Also because I'm cynical and haven't had lunch yet. The world is full of millions and millions of random, unconnected events that happen every second. The odds of there seeming to be a synchronistic connection from time to time between any two events, in mathematical terms, is pretty good considering the sheer magnitude of human activity and our capacity for drawing parallels. Any significance we draw from them, however, comes from our perception of the events, not the events themselves. In other words, if the lifespan of a monkey was a billion years and you put a billion of them in front of a billion typewriters, at some point, one of them would, by pure chance, write "Hamlet". We would be astounded if it was the first monkey on the first typewriter, but less so if it happened after a few million years of typing. It is the conclusions we draw from the circumstances under which something improbable happens that makes it appear mystifying. Vasix I agree with Adven. Unless in the next two minutes the song Synchronicity starts playing on all our radios... Ocean_Islands The monkey at the typewriter idea has been statistically disproven, but it makes a nice story. A monkey might type some words, but Hamlet? No. Here's another incident of synchronicity: A man and a woman were very good friends, but not lovers. Due to the circumstances of life, they married and moved some distance apart from each other. Being convinced of each other's worth, however, they did manage to meet, not for trysts, but for the purposes of friendship, on a regular basis, across many years. They liked to meet in a town situated between where they lived, and this town overlooked the ocean. It was their favorite place, especially a certain hill overlooking a bay. At one point, the woman said, "My husband has been transferred overseas, we're moving and I don't know when we will be able to see each other again." They promised to meet in five years, at that very same spot. They realized the unlikelihood of their being able to accomplish this but at the same time they were determined. As it happens, after a couple of years, the woman was killed in an unfortunate accident. To honor their friendship and the memory of his very good friend, the man went to the spot on the hill five years from the time they made the promise. As he stood on the hill overlooking the water, his eye caught a piece of paper on the ground, just a scrap. He picked it up. His friend's first name was printed on it. They both had kept their promise. Adven39 Wednesday, October 18, 2000 - 01:42 pm [Click here to edit this post] Ocean, I don't agree that the monkey/Hamlet suggestion has been statistically disproven. If one of them is capable of writng a few words purely by chance, as you acknowledge under this scenario, then, reasoning exponentially, they are capable of a few more words or a lot more words. The number of words or the possible combinations that might arise are not finite, therefore, any combination is not only possible, it is a statistical certainty that all combinations of words will eventually be typed - including Hamlet. It is just a matter of time multiplied by the number of monkeys. Besides, whether that arrangement would ever translate into Hamlet is irrelevant. If the first monkey only wrote a few words, we would tend to be astounded and draw a larger inference from it than actually existed. Sandyc Adven39 -- "Any significance we draw from them, however, comes from our perception of the events, not the events themselves" and "It is the conclusions we draw from the circumstances under which something improbable happens that makes it appear mystifying." 'Our perception of events'. Seems to me that that is what shapes our lives. Each of us will see an event in a different way. Just because it's through different eyes, into a different brain. But who, because each of us are different, can say that their perception is the right one.? And can our collective unconscious not exist? Our conclusions are drawn to demystify the event. They lead us to our faith, our spirituality. Not necessarily a good thing, seeing as it could all be just imagination, or lead to a form of hell, if we let it. Yet, I believe in Karma -- as you sow, so shall you reap. With the above quote in mind, I would like to know if you believe that all of our being is shaped by our thoughts. That is to say - If we change our thoughts we can change our feelings and our physical state therefore. And from that, that each of us is responsible for our own feelings -- meaning that no one can hurt my feelings unless I choose to feel hurt. Are we getting convoluted here or what? Adven39 SandyC, you make some valid points and I do have a rebuttal, but, I think, you're right, this is getting convoluted and maybe not of much interest to anyone other than you, I and Ocean - and I think we're rapidly losing him. If you'd like to take this off the board and e-mail me directly, I always love a philosophical debate, even if it resolves absolutely nothing. Ocean_Islands Absolutely not -- don't do that, others might want to join in, that's what the board is for. Adven, I'm sorry but what you were saying is pretty much gibberish. Your drawing inferences to possibilities is the exact fallacy I'm addressing. And SandyC, why are you quoting the Bible to justify a belief in Karma -- which appears nowhere in the Bible? Adven39 Possibly, Ocean, but what is synchronicity, if not an inference? Elitist OK since I have been lambasted for only posting in the Banish Vykin thread, I thought I would add my thoughts here (and then you may wish me to go back). Synchronicity - nice definition, nice stories. But lets get to the root of what we are talking about here. Synchronicity is one of the bastions of New Age spirituality - i.e. there is no such thing as coincidence, that there is always a "purpose" behind everything that happens, and that "enlightened" beings can perceive and manipulate their environment such that they create favorable coincidences. Unforunately, this lies in the same realm as ESP, UOFs, and ghosts. Though a majority of people will tell you they believe in them, there is really no evidence that they exist. And truthfully unless there is hard evidence, it is more likely that these things are our minds doing what it tries to do best - trying to make order out of chaos. Now saying that, I try to keep an open mind. I have had experiences that I would like to say were ESP or UFOs or ghosts or synchronicity. But when I look at them critically, I am certain they were my mind organizing and explaining events that really had no order or explanation. Back to my hole. Sandyc Ocean - I didn't realize it was a bible quote. Is it? I was trying to explain what I meant by Karma. Maybe what the bible says is 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you' - but that seems a limited explanation as to what karma means to me. And 'justify'? Ocean_Islands It is actually a theory. Further on the Monkey Hamlet issue, here is an article which will help you understand why you are wrong: "The Mathematics of Monkeys and Shakespeare" http://www.nutters.org/monkeys.html Adven39 All theories are inferences until they become accepted as fact. Ocean_Islands If ever. I hardly said Synchronicity was fact. Resortgirl WOW, you guys are really smart! Adven39 I've read it, Ocean, and I'd have a lot more confidence in it if it came from a recognized academic journal and not someone who refers to what he has to say as a "constrained rant". Elitest and Vasix, get your collective asses back here. Elitist Theories are never facts. They are constructs that are put together to explain current observed phenomena and knowledge. Once a theory has been postulated, it is then subject to scrutiny by experimentation that either proves, disproves, or modifies the theory. So where is the experimentation on this "theory"? All I see is a bunch of anecdotal references trying to prove it is a universal concept. And please point me to a reputable source for discussion on this - a quick web search brings up sites ranging from new age to magic - nothing I would consider an authoritive source. Ocean_Islands Well, I just found that bit just now. I've seen more supported, similar articles elsewhere but I can't remember where. But if you look at the principles involved I think you'll see that they are sound. The universe has not existed long enough to produce this monkey creation. lol. But let's go back to Synchronicity. Have you ever telephoned someone, and after you compose the number you are surprised not to hear a ring. There's no dial tone either. You say hello, and your friend is there. He had just picked up the phone to dial you! Why did this happen? Elitist Also your Nova Scotia story is nice, but sounds too much like an e-mail scam for me to believe. It only needs "Send this to everyone you know" to make it perfect. Can you give me a source for it also? Ocean_Islands Some theories cannot be proven, for instance: the beginning of the universe, economics, the existence of time. That does not mean they are not real. I'm afraid I'm not at the library right now, or I would give finding the reference a shot. And what about the occurrence of dreams, which also is addressed in Synchronicity theory? Dreams that come true, for instance. Adven39 In purely philosophical terms no theory - even gravity - is absolute fact. In scientific terms, a theory becomes law or fact when the overwhelming preponderence of the empirical evidence indicates it to be so. Even evolution, which still has some doubters, is considered to be closer to law in most academic circles. Elitist Well your phone coincidence is nice too. But lets look at the chances of that happening. Lets see - you are friends - so there is a good chance you talk to each other. Maybe even phone each other. Now how often do you talk? And when do you usually phone each other. How long have you known each other? This has happened to me by the way - I will call my wife and all of a sudden instead of a ring I will get her punching in my number. But lets see, I have been married 17 years, I work a ways from home, we call each other 5 to 10 times a day during the week, I am only at work 8 hours a day, and there are certain times she knows I am not in the office (like lunch). And we also get into the habit of calling about the same time each day. Another way to think about it - how many phone calls do you make each day? Take this, multiply it by how many days you have been using the phone, then you have a good idea how many chances you have had of this happening. It is not suprising it has ocurred, and since it probably has ocurred at least once to many people, you can use it as an example for synchronicity. Of course it is all random probability. Adven39 Sorry, to me, dreams that appear to have a connection of some sort to an actual event, are coincidences, too. Wait, the beginning of the universe is not a theory. Either it began or not. Now there are theories of how the universe began, and those are tested by gathering of astronomical data to test them. And as time goes on, some theories are discarded and some go on. New ones crop up. Some are modified as new facts are found. The point is as long as it is a theory, it is unproven. And even laws are suspect and constantly being tested <grin>. And of course there is the theory that the universe never had a beginning... Resortgirl I was napping and the phone rang, I didn't want to get it but I thought, "what if it's my daughters boss saying she doesn't have to work tonight" I answered and it was a friend , long distance. Call waiting beeped in but I ignored it. After I hung up I was saying goodbye to my daughter and thought"I should check to see if that last caller left a message" I checked and sure enough.. It was her boss saying she didn't have to work. She has never called before to say that. Hmmmmmm..... Elitist As for dreams, isn't it more likely that the subconcious during sleep is correlating things that the conscious mind might not be aware of, then having it surface in dreams? Ocean_Islands Well obviously in certain cases the phone thing is totally understandable and even to be expected. However, for me it has happened when out of the blue a thought occurs to me to call my sister, for instance, and the same thought occurs to her at the same time. We don't speak that often, and not on a regular basis. So your explanation does not apply in this case. In 1865, the President of the United States woke up and said to his wife, "Last night I had a dream. I went downstairs and people dressed in black were around. I asked someone what was the matter. 'The president has died,' came the response. There was a funeral in the White House." Lincoln's assassination came not long afterwards. Adven39 How many time have you called your sister and she was NOT planning to phone you at the same time? If it happened virtually every time, you might have something there. Elitist And do you not think that Lincoln was under a tremendous amount of stress, that he was living in a time that death was constantly occuring? Did you think that Lincoln's subconcious might not have come up with a possible escape from the pressure he was under? Or that it knew the extreme dislike that many carried for him (probably the whole South) and this manifested in a "death" dream? And how many times have presidents had "death" dreams and nothing came of them. You don't hear about those cause they don't make a good story. Of course a lot of people might have liked Nixon to of had such a dream. The mind will latch on to these coincidences, but ignore the times nothing happens. So if you have a dream about your sister every night, and then one day you see her on the street, you say "synchronicity". But why didn't you see her every other day? And why are you dreaming about your sister every night? Adven39 Ocean, Elitest, this has been fun (I'm not trying to be glib, I really enjoyed it). I've got to go out for the evening. I look forward to seeing where this thread has taken off when I get back. Riviere76 Aye, synchronicity is alive and well. Too many instances in my own life to discuss and have heard of others as posted. Synchronicity rules my life more than any manmade religions, that I can say.. Ocean_Islands A man woke up one morning; he was rooming with some friends. They were in an isolated environment, without contact with anyone, without news or newspapers, or any information about the outside world at all. "I had a dream that the Concord jet crashed," he said. The Concord had crashed just days before; it had never crashed before in over twenty years of service, and was widely believed to be crash-proof. It crashing was extremely unlikely; it crashing that week was even less likely! His dreaming about it was even less likely than that! So why did Eddie dream this? Gomer After weeks of lurking I see something that holds an interest to me. Congrats to whoever (I tend not to look at posters names-just read the post) came up with this. I'm in the random acts of happenings camp,or as Vonnegut put it-"It was all an accident"in one of his stories-in response to the what's life all about question to his protagonist. While the monkeys may not type hamlet-they're sure to type something that someone will grasp as meaningful-case in point the Baby Ruth/Curtis Confection co. and the urban legend that won't go away story. Legend has it that it was named after Grover Cleveland's daughter born in white house in 1891-died 1904 of diptheria-whereas the bar debuted in 1921 a year after the Yankees bought Babe Ruth who proceeded to hit a record shattering (at that time) 54 homers-prev record being somewhere in mid 30's-and etching himself into the countries superstar legend forever. The 2 camps in discussion (candy company and rational thinkers) debated it because Ruth wanted royalties from company whereupon company stated their Cleveland daughter claim-even tho she (and the former pres) had been dead for almost 20 yrs-and out of the popular news for that long. Herein lies the synchroncicity of those events which prove something to someone who'll believe. Baby Ruth b'91 Babe ruth B'95 (4 yrs apart) Baby Ruth d-1904 G.Cleveland d-1908 (4 years apart) 4 yrs later (1912) scouts show up to watch Babe play in orphanage/sandlot league games Signed to contract in 1914 (4th yr of the decade) when Curtis confectioners where being formed. Played fulltime (pitcher AND outfielder-was pitcher previously) 4 years later-1918- Sold to Yankees 1n 1920 when he hit 54 (4 again)homers,and 4 yrs after Curtis'1st commercial candy bar (1916) When Curtis introduced the Baby Ruth bar it was their 4th commercialy successful confection. Babe Ruth died in 1948-40 years (4 decades) after Cleveland,and 44 yrs after"baby ruth"-and his body was viewed at Yankee stadium where it sat for 2 (x2=4) days for public viewing by (among others) 4 members of Cleveland's kin +4 members of the Curtis'clan. Unfortunately for the rest of the mourners/viewers (who totalled according to press reports of the time-at about FOUR hundred thousand) he was buried on the 4th day after his death-and the Cleveland clan was never heard from again in groups of 4-altho The Curtis' made a last ditch attempt at perpetuating the ongoing coicidences,when in 1951 (4 decades after the Baby Ruth Bar)they attempted to introduce a 4 musketeers bar-and were subsequently banned from any more serious attempts at their"originality in advertising"when it was pointed out that the Mars company already had a 3 musketeers bar. All those 4's coincidence?maybe-but-if you read this far and have that natural curiousity that attracts us all to get closure on events-remember this----- The next door you open could have someone with a pie in their hand in back of it [ ] [ ] [ ] Sometimes reality sucks-that is if you're the pie target Adven39 Sorry, I'm back for one more comment. Ocean, you're just citing anecdotes. There are millions of people having millions of dreams. Every once in a while someone happens to have a dream that, by chance, happens to mirror an event from their life. When it doesn't, it's just another quickly forgotten dream. On the rare occasion that it does, it's a coincidence that some see as having some kind of larger significance. What criteria are you using for separating coincidence from synchronicity? Ocean_Islands One often-remarked-upon aspect of Synchronicity is that the coincidences often seem meaningless but remarkable. This one would have to fit in that category. Here's another one, which you probably already know: President Lincoln's secretary's name was Kennedy. President Kennedy's secretary was named Lincoln. Abraham Lincoln was elected to Congress in 1846. John F. Kennedy was elected to Congress in 1946. Abraham Lincoln was elected President in 1860. John F. Kennedy was elected President in 1960. Both successors were named Johnson. Andrew Johnson, who succeeded Lincoln, was born in 1808. Lyndon Johnson, who succeeded Kennedy, was born in 1908. Abraham Lincoln died in 1865. Andrew Johnson died in 1875. Riviere76 Ok, an instance.. I rarely dream except IF events happen. I dreamed of TWA 800 crashing in a giant fireball, woke up sweating, shaking, crying, on Sunday night. I never see the details of the actual plane crashes I dream of, but they sadly always happen. Monday I went to the track after spending $70 on boxes to my son's new home, and won $200 making a profit. I was tired but sat down at 11pm to write my husband a letter about my dream and mundane events. I mailed it Tuesday. I wrote I saw a jet crash by a city, much fire, on the east coast, no other details, it was dark, it scared me, felt frustrated. I begged him to take a bus from his 2 wk business trip to Virginia, or let me drive down, just begged him not to fly, it affected me that deeply. I never write my husband when he's away and rarely call, so this is unusual alone. Then Wed I felt sick all day for no reason, just edgy and throwing up, nervous. I felt a need to talk to my husband and called him about 9pm CST, just to make sure he was ok, we didn't talk about my letter as he didn't get it yet. That's unusual for me to call, again, but I told him I loved him and worried, my letter would explain. Told him not to fly home, I'd drive all the way to fetch him, just no flying? He said ok and we went to bed. Next morning I woke up to the bad news, I literally fell down crying and so sad, frustrated it happened. I got a call from a lady an hour later saying Mark got my letter that Thur clearly postmarked Tues and he nearly fainted on watching the CNN news, how could I explain it? I don't know.. Precognition, I have too much of that. It goes with synchronicity in the order to events somehow. Why some do see into the future others are closed minded, I wish I did not have the visions and don't want them when I am just helpless to do anything. I try hard to block my visions out instead of use them, unless they're to the good. Long ago I had a real color dream of my husband winning at a casino, so we went, and it all came true, my dead grandmother sometimes will come to me and tell me lotto numbers, who knows why or when synchronicity or other factors play a part in life? That's a question best left for folks to answer for themselves I guess... Gomer A side note to my previous post-- I made up some of the"facts" to perpetuate the 4 theory. As many do with those Lincoln references-to wit the "dream"anothr urban legend.Wanted to see if any would bite-hence the smilies. It's been my life's observation that some will to any story.Color me cynical,but those are my beliefs-ESPECIALLY if said story references are on internet. Also have a healthy cynicism for the printed press to wit Chariot OF The Gods-which seems to bring synchronisity to bear,eg.times of the aztecs.Mayans.Egyptiasns,Babylonians re pyramid building. I just put it down to a natural evolution of Homo Sapiens and his brain's capacity at any given time in history,ie,they all had the same stimuli (fire,the stars,etc) to postulate what these things meant to his existence/survival and they all came to approximate revaltions. In today's society,with more facts,and more theories,to expound on it's only natural for some to look at synchroisity,astrology,numbers,whatever as a new enlightenment and I have no problrm with that-as long as people realize it's just an assumption not proven by fact-and could be POSSIBLY putting blinkers on people to alternate explanations-which I consider a waste of talent/brainpower when so many other REAL situations demand our intellect-case in point here a national election where some people will vote on a candidate because of a sun sign or some other equally,IMO,useless denominator. I'm squarely in the Aven-Elitist camp,in that some of these"new Age"theories are given WAY TOO MUCH attention-at the neglect of other more rational bases.Again MY OPINION-tho at least they provide brain exercize-which is not a bad thing Wcv63 I don't know if this is syncronicity - I've always viewed it as the hand of God but it saved my daughter's life. When my daughter was 8 months old I brought her to the doctor to get checked because her fingernails were white and wouldn't pink up no matter how much a rubbed them. Why did I notice that? I don't know. But I figured maybe she needed a formula with iron. The doctor gave her a blood test and said they would call me in couple of days. I got a call that night at 10:30 to rush my daughter to the hospital she needed blood transfusions immediately. Turns out she had a very rare form of viral anemia called transient eurithmoblastopenia of childhood and required 4 blood transfusions. Doctors say they don't usually catch this till the child has already gone into convulsions from congestive heart failure. Additionally, she was born with an atrial septal defect and her cardiologist said it was too big to close up on its own. After bringing her to schedule her for surgery the hole had indeed closed up and no surgery was necessary. All these events took place within a few months of each other. Today my little girl is 8 and couldn't be healthier or happier. Elitist Ok, Ok, Ok. I am back after a nice hour long drive home, some good Chinese take-out, Drew Carey and Spin City, and both kids to bed. I like your stories. Like I said, I have them to. But lets be real. There are 6 BILLION people on this planet. What are the chances that one of them will have a plane crash dream that scares them enough they tell people about it. And then a plane crashes? I imagine thousands of people every night have a plane crash dream. Probably hundreds tell someone about them the next day. Lets see, a thousand divided by 6 billion is what percent of the population? Chances are we will have a plane crash sometime in the year. For that matter, we have 6 billion people dreaming every night. And each person has several dreams a night. Now how many dreams are that which have the possibility of a similar occurence happening in real life. Probably enough where people remember their dreams then have something happen and then tell somebody. And voila - dreams and synchronicity. Now if everybody every night had dreams that came true the next day - that would be a different matter. Or even if a statistically significant portion did (I would even go for, lets say 1% - that would mean 60 million people would wake up one day and say "Hey there is going to be a major plane crash today"). Now that would be impressive. Ocean_Islands What are you trying to convince me of, that synchronicity does not exist, or that dreams can't come true? Adven39 Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 07:45 am [Click here to edit this post] Dreams do come true, it just isn't synchronicity when it happens. The only difference that I can see between synchronicity and coincidence is that we attach emotional or spiritual significance to one and we don't to the other. The more improbable the coincidence, the more likely we are to attach some larger importance to it. In order to strengthen the argument that synchronicity actually exists, you need to define it, separate it from coincidence and see if it is happening in statistically significant numbers to a degree that makes it something other than coincidence. As Elitest indicated, the universe is a chaotic, random, often seemingly senseless place. We look for meaning and order in the chaos and often don't find it. If the truth is the ultimate goal, I think it is counter-productive to take what I see as quantum leaps in logic in our search for answers. As a philosophy or belief for the individual, I think synchronicity is fine, if that's how someone wishes to view the world around them. To take that out of the realm of spirituality, and suggest it has an empirical basis, however, will take a lot more evidence than you have currently provided. Ocean_Islands Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 08:17 am [Click here to edit this post] Well I can see I'm the only one towing the line here and I am quite outnumbered. Naysaying is much more fun than something else, and it's also very easy. I'm not in the business of providing empirical evidence; synchronicity will never be proven, just like emotions cannot be proven. Quantum leaps in logic don't apply because what I am exploring is not at all logical. I'm simply exploring Jung's concept because I think it to be an intriguing one. I'm also happy to be someone who can bridge the gap between empiricism and the ethereal without having to deny one or the other. Digilady Shit, Oc, I agree... I just really haven't had the time to hark up a decent post on the subject. It won't be today, probably, either... but hang in! I =can= say that I've been a firm believer for 20+ years. YAH! Don't let me get started... back to work <craaack the whip> Sandyc That was fun. Imagine how boring it would be if we all saw things the same way. Gomer Ocean- On the Lincoln thing a few points 1-I've never seen a corrorobaration to the "dream"story-which was lifted from memoirs of a Lincoln "bodyguard" at the time-tho in his account a few other people were there. 2-The lincoln/Kennedy thing a couple points are-Oswald was"known"by 3 names because the press picked that up from Dallas police who book you under 3 names-since that's what is usually on any id (drivers license,passport,whatever)-tho any interview I've seen with his wife she referred to him as Lee-while Booth WAS billed with 3 names in the theatre (a theatrical family line)PLUS-if we're to believe the conspiracy theorists Oswald was not the killer-tho that person(s) MAY be known by 3 names-but that's another avenue I don't care to go. My point in my Babe Ruth Tale was that many things can be strewn together to create,or support,some theory-and for all I know in this wide world of instantaneous communication on the net-the Ruth thing may have been brought up before-and may even have a webpage devoted to it-altho I just made mine up on spur of the moment because of a conversation I had recently about the Babe. All the timelines were corrrect-until his death,so I embellished on it to try to create a story that had no meaning to me other than satyrical,but stories like that do have meaning for others,which is how a lot of"information" is disseminated in the media. I'm not looking for converts-merely tried to demonstrate how some"mystical"events aren't really what they appear on the surface-a fact that more than one salesman/conman/tout uses every day to get money from uninformed dupes. I'm not saying you,or your fellow believers in this particular idea are-but it's from these roots (the wide eyed believers among them) that they get their customers-and I consider that "trade"(snake oil salesman)particularly slimy Ocean_Islands Here is Lincoln's dream; he recounted it to his wife and some friends three days before he was killed: "About ten days ago, I retired very late. I had been up waiting for important dispatches from the front. I could not have been long in bed when I fell into a slumber, for I was weary. I soon began to dream. There seemed to be a death-like stillness about me. Then I heard subdued sobs, as if a number of people were weeping. I thought I left my bed and wandered downstairs. There the silence was broken by the same pitiful sobbing, but the mourners were invisible. I went from room to room; no living person was in sight, but the same mournful sounds of distress met me as I passed along. I saw light in all the rooms; every object was familiar to me; but where were all the people who were grieving as if their hearts would break? I was puzzled and alarmed. What could be the meaning of all this? Determined to find the cause of a state of things so mysterious and so shocking, I kept on until I arrived at the East Room, which I entered. There I met with a sickening surprise. Before me was a catafalque, on which rested a corpse wrapped in funeral vestments. Around it were stationed soldiers who were acting as guards; and there was a throng of people, gazing mournfully upon the corpse, whose face was covered, others weeping pitifully. 'Who is dead in the White House?' I demanded of one of the soldiers, 'The President,' was his answer; 'he was killed by an assassin.' Then came a loud burst of grief from the crowd, which woke me from my dream. I slept no more that night; and although it was only a dream, I have been strangely annoyed by it ever since." Adven39 Ocean, I'm not naysaying because it's fun (okay, sometimes it is) or to be contrary for the sake of being contrary. I honestly believe what Elitest and I and a few others are saying is true. I respect your opinion and the fact you are sticking to your guns when three or four of us are sniping at you. I would not keep contributing to this thread if I felt you were being ganged up on or weren't capable of defending your position effectively. Besides, SandyC is on your side and Digilady has yet to be heard from. Ocean_Islands The most beautiful and profound emotion we can experience is the sensation of the mystical. It is the sower of all true science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead." Albert Einstein Noslonna As a believer in Will-o'-the-wisps ... Syncronicity grabs your attention and imagination. All those mysterious and whimsical, or scary loose ends, neatly arranged in an orderly pattern. It would make sense out of a crazy world. But that takes away the fun. You are left staring at a boring old pattern, all synchronicity and randomness gone, all loose ends tied up in that four letter word -- Fate. Making a pattern out of coinkydink leaves nothing to the imagination except Ignus Fatuus. Gomer Ocean-that"dream'was lifted from the memoirs I alluded to before,which were written some years after Lincoln was gone-where is the corroboration from the other"witnesses"? I ask questions like why wasn't this in the press of the time (I've never seen it quoted as from the xx News of 1865) further if the dream did occur what significance should I apply to it-since an assassination attempt was a very real fear in those years because of Lincoln's anti-slavery stance-hence his"bodyguard" for the last year or so of his life (this man slept in/by Lincoln's room (s) and something that must have been in Lincoln's subconcious,if not an outright daily concern. It comes down to what we tend to believe whether we pursue these thoughts further-such as"could his death have been prevented".I doubt it since all the measures they knew about at the time were implemented-before the fact,to the best of my knowledge. Elitist Well lets get a little deeper - even with Einstein. The real thing about logical and mystical goes to how our brain works. The left side is the logic center which handles speech, reading, writing, mathematics. The right side is our symbolic and creative side, which handles shapes and forms. The right side can't speak, or read, or write, but works in symbols. In essence the left side of your brain is logical, the right mystical. There is some communication between the two, but they are pretty independent. In fact you can severe the connection (I think this was first observed in some brain damaged patients - and I don't have the time to do a search now) and your left hand (controlled by the right side) will not be able to write at all - it just can't comprehend writing. The thing is in humans one side or the other of the brain dominates. Logical and pragmatic thinkers tend to be left brained, artists and entertainers tend to be right brained. But both sides still exist for everyone. So you have this creative and mystic side that accepts and tries to interpret things in a symbolic matter - making connections such synchronicity real, or making spirituality real, while you have this logical side that is telling you "Hey this is bunk - Show me the evidence". Now the truly creative geniuses such as Einstein had a knack for tapping into that symbolic brain and using it to take the intuitive leaps that his logical brain could quantize and formalize. And it is not suprising that he made that quote, because the workings of the right side of the brain do seem magical, making connections that the logical side would never see, and in essence divining truths that we would not normally see with our left brain. Now how was that? By the way, there is a test out there somewhere that will show you if you are left or right brain dominated, and if your are visually or hearing oriented (I remember the executable was brain.exe). If you can find it, let's take it and see which of the believers in synchronicity are right brained and which are left brained. Now Ocean, don't you wish I would have stayed in my Banish Vykin thread? Sbw Couple of questions - What happens when the monkey named Shakespeare is the first one to type out Hamlet? At what point does something become so unlikely that it by appearance would seem to be fate? (As in the story of the pilot, what are the chances the plane would crash, what are the chances the wife would be helping out, what were the chances that she would visit her friends....statistical wise that percentage would have to very small.) Ocean_Islands Of course not, Elitist, I would say rather, Aren't you glad you got out of your little box? I'm afraid you're a bit mixed up on the split brain experiments, and I'd have to see back up on the logical/mystical brain split you are referring to, I've never seen it put quite that way before. When, due to treatment for epilepsy, the two halves of the brain have to be disassociated by severing the direct connections between the two halves, some strange things happen. Take one of the people who have had this treatment, and place in their left hand an easily recognized object. The object is behind a curtain so that the person cannot see it. This person CANNOT speak what the object is. But their left hand, amazingly so, can write down what the object is! Even after writing it (as long as they don't see the other side of the curtain), the person cannot say the object. Why? Because speech is located in the right half of the brain, and until that half of the brain can see the object, the person cannot speak what it is; however, the left brain knows what it is and can easily write it. What does this have to do with synchronicity? Simply that there are some things that are very strange which actually do have explanations. But the explanations are not always forthcoming. Elitist SBW - sure the percentage has to be small, but then there are 6 billion people in the world. So even though the chances of it happening are small, there are enough people and enough time that it probably will happen. Take for instance the lottery here in Texas. The chances of winning are 1 in 25 million. That is an extremely small chance of something happening. But people win, especially when tens of millions of people enter. And the guy who does win really talks it up. But you don't when you lose do you? So now you have billions of people dreaming every night. And they are dreaming about just about everything. And then the guy who has a dream that comes true will talk about it and all of a sudden he is psychic or it is synchronicity. Sure the statistics says there is a small chance of it happening, but there are so many chances being taken that it is almost guaranteed to happen. By the way, the link to the left/right brain stuff is http://commhum.mccneb.edu/cchurchill/brainquiz.htm Elitist Ocean you might be right about the writing and speaking, I can never keep it straight. But I think if you look a little deeper you will see that the two sides are logical/intuitive. Take the test and see. Elitist Here is another link to tell the differences. And like Al Gore, it seems I missed some of the details. But I think I got most of the big picture correct. And I promise I will do better and will always be right on the Big Items. http://brain.web-us.com/brain/LRBrain.html Adven39 In Einstein's book, "The Oscillating Universe", which I have read, but don't pretend to understand except at a rudimentary level, he discusses his theory on relativity. If you are looking to be awed and to experience the sense of the mystical, it is found in his constructs on light and time. What makes them so powerful and awe-inspiring is that they are very likely true: as you appraoch the speed of light, time may actually slow down. This sort of thing is what Einstein was referring to in his quotation posted above. To me, this is much more beautiful and profound than a theory that has no basis other than that we might like it to be so. Ocean_Islands I think Einstein was referring, in large part, to the sense of mystery leading one to discover the component parts of it in order eventually to understand it. But if you don't have the sense of mystery and awe, and dismiss it out of hand, then you never get to the discovery part at all. Don't get me started on the subject that relativity is a theory which cannot be proven. I'll simply say it is beautiful and profound and you may wish it to be true. Adven39 Okay, we'll save relativity for another thread and another time. I've pretty well exhausted anything I might have to add on this topic and sense neither one of us is about to suddenly come to our senses and realize the error of our ways. Besides, this cerebral stuff is making me hungry. Elitist Funny you should say that. I was about to write and say I was hungry too. Ocean_Islands Isn't it a coincidence that you both change the subject when your arguments have run out? Elitist OK where were we? I thought we had convinced you. Essentially I say your synchronicity is essentially statistically insignificant coincidence that the mind tries to pattern into something more significant. You say there is a purpose behind coincidence, i.e. that coincidence is not random but occurs for a reason. The thing is, I can't prove a negative. I can't prove synchronicity doesn't exist. I can't prove that God doesn't exist. But you can prove a positive by showing us good scientific fact and evidence that synchronicity exists. Use the scientific method to prove it, not anecdotes. Show me events that can only be explained by purposeful synchronicity, not by random coincidence. In other words, until you prove it exists, it is only a dream. And don't even say it is a theory because a theory at least has some hard evidence behind it. Again you only have anecdotes. Ocean_Islands It may be that synchronicity itself is not purposeful, but a manifestation, if you will, of something beneath that may indeed be purposeful (or not). In the middle ages, people believed that meat left out in the sun turned into flies. This was an anecdote, wasn't it. At some point, they understood what was happening. So anecdotes, while the term is dismissive, can be quite useful. Here's an anecdote for you: A guy had a triangular piece of glass. One day he placed it on the table where slivers of sunlight were shining down. One sliver of sunlight fell on the piece of glass. It created a rainbow! Isn't that strange? If he had said, "That's just a coincidence," then Isaac Newton never would have discovered the spectrum. Adven39 It isn't a coincidence that we were both hungry. Sounds more like synchronicity to me. Let's look at the facts: 1. Elitest and I have similar views. 2. We both get hungry - around the same time. 3. Our handles both start with a vowel. 4. You don't agree with either one of us. 5. His name's Elitest and I'm an egomaniac. 6. We both posted on the Vykin thread. 7. The word "Einstein" was used by both of us. 8. Neither one of us seems capable of dropping this topic, despite indications that we are about to. 9. We both have 7 characters in our handles. Coincidence? I think not. |
Whit4you | Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 12:15 am   Ocean_Islands Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 01:16 pm [Click here to edit this post] You forgot to add that you are both mistaken. Adven39 Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 01:24 pm [Click here to edit this post] I didn't forget. I was pretty sure you'd remind us. Ocean_Islands Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 01:29 pm [Click here to edit this post] Were you prophesying the future? Gomer Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 01:30 pm [Click here to edit this post] To add something to the right brain/left brain picture (and not for any sake of argument but maybe clarification)I was fortunate enough to happen upon a book called "Drawing on the right side of your brain"(or something very close to it. Was written by an art teacher in Calif.school system (can't remember the level) and I think I might have gotten the reference from the original Whole Earth catalogue-but if anyone ever has an inclination to learn (or get better) to draw/paint-I'd recommend this book highly (if it's still in print) As was mentioned left/right equates to logic/intuition-but each of us has both parts just one side rules more of our thoughts than the other. I bought this book and in a months time I was sketching the fruit bowls/portraits that are so common in art classes-but usually take a much longer time to absorb.Tho I liked the finished product I stopped after abt a year because of time constraints-but I must say those sketches left me as tired in my mind as my physical workouts leave my body-so much so that it felt like work,when I was looking for fun. The best part I got out of those drawings/exercises ,tho,was the insight that it gave me towards art appreciation in it's various forms.I can critique a painting,sculpture because of my newfound insight into the mechanics (My left brain) of composition,perspective,angles,etc. It taught my logical side what to look for.Sort of like watching and seeeing the end result of a mechanic's work that you know the theory of-but the practical application of the theory to the repair is a lot harder for me to do than the mechanic.(Tho in some cases-like the mechanic that"fixed"my AC at my house a few years ago-I would have done a better job at it) NEVER sign up for "homeowners maintence"contracts-you'll do better on your own getting tradesmen thru word of mouth-or even the yellow pages in some instances-oops different rant [ ] Elitist Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 01:32 pm [Click here to edit this post] Boy you really opened it up this time Ocean. First about the meat and flies. Yes they thought that meat turned into flies, pretty much like you think coincidences turn into synchronicities (is that a good term or what?). Hey I got meat, then I got flies, it can only be a miraculous transformation! It wasn't until people used the scientific method that they found out that "well look at that, flies lay eggs in meat, they turn into maggots, then those turn into flies, imagine that". The difference between the fly theory and synchronicity is that almost every time you put a piece of meat out, you would get flies. That isn't anecdotal, that was an observed fact. Now if they had come up with that conclusion when one day their brother-in-law told them it happened, then a couple of months later the butcher told them it happened to him, that would be anecdotal. So with Newton he saw a rainbow coming from a prism. And he said "Here is an observed phenomenom, why does it do that?" and then discovering the refraction of light through glass. That is not coincidence or synchronicity, that is a logical mind seeing something and trying to determine its causes. I am certain that seeing a rainbow through glass was not an unknown phenomena, I am sure thousands of people had seen it, and Newton had probably seen it before. I am sure he had seen a rainbow. But him placing a prism somewhere and seeing the rainbow then taking that to a logical conclusion has nothing to do with synchronicity. Him placing the prism was an event that triggered the scientific thought process, nothing more. I doubt very seriously that there was some underlying purpose that made him place it there. I ramble. But it seems your defense of your position is pretty shaky. It has gone from some pretty good, believable stories to things that have no bearing on the argument. Kinda fuzzy math to me. Adven39 Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 01:35 pm [Click here to edit this post] I was going to say, Gomer, kind of got a little off the topic there. Ocean_Islands Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 01:46 pm [Click here to edit this post] Alright, this is very interesting. If they put the meat out in the winter, there would be no flies. If Newton had not used a triangular piece of glass, he would not have gotten a spectrum. It just takes the right experiment to get the occurrence to be repeatable. No one has figured out the right experiment yet. Maybe no one cares to; the scientific world right now is so afraid of being laughed at (actually, the scientific world has always been afraid of being laughed at), that no one is addressing this and many other strange things that happen. After all, they laughed at Galileo and many others. Just a few years ago, scientists were saying it was a 'coincidence' that Africa and South America looked like the pieces of a puzzle. Someone figured out later that, in fact, at one time they had been joined together and they have been moving slowly apart for millions of years. Gomer Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 01:50 pm [Click here to edit this post] Yeah,but I didn't bring up the right brain/left brain stuff [ ] But that book did open up a new avenue of insight into something I wasn't particularly interested in at the time-so it can't be all bad. And my name doesn't start with a vowel-tho Oceans does-coincidence or ? Elitist Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 02:04 pm [Click here to edit this post] This is called serendipity, not synchronicity. And the reason that the scientific world is afraid of investigating this type of stuff is that there are so many hucksters and charlatans and con artists around that spout the stuff, and scam people with tricks, and make money off of pseudoscientific mysticism that there is no credibility in the claims to make investigating worthwhile. The scientific community got suckered enough with reputable members of their community with things like polywater and cold fusion. Do you think they are going to investigate something from mystics that has little hard evidence. Besides, they have investigated things such as ESP and UFOs and pretty much concluded there is not much there (I know, I know this is a whole other debate) but people still believe in them. And as I said, they cannot prove a negative. But when it becomes apparent that proving a positive is unproductive, why should they pursue it? And I don't think they laughed at Galileo, I think they wanted to excommunicate him. And the Africa/South America thing. So they called it a coincidence. Are they now calling it synchronicity? I think not. They now have new facts and evidence that support a new theory. Plate tectonics I believe. Adven39 Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 02:19 pm [Click here to edit this post] I assume the scientist who discovered that Africa and South America were joined at one point is one of these people who was afraid of being laughed at. Actually, science has the opposite problem - researchers who are too anxious to make a name for themselves and make claims that they can't substantiate in order to get grant money. Altering or fabricating data is a major issue. It's interesting that you seem to hold science to a level of accountability that you do not demand of yourself. Your argument seems to be that science isn't infallible, therefore, it is suspect. Yet, you seem to offer no verifiable standard that your theory is required to meet. As for why no scientist seems to be willing to conduct the right experiment, it's because the premise being studied has to be at least remotely plausible. They don't do research on whether coyotes can waltz, either. Ocean_Islands Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 02:31 pm [Click here to edit this post] Some excellent points. No, I don't think the scientific community at large will investigate some of these things. ESP has been investigated already. We're not going to start about UFOs, please! Cold fusion, etc., was merely a mistake or poor science if you will. I don't need to hold myself to any kind of 'accountability' regarding this discussion because I am not claiming anything. I'm not suspicious of science. However I am suspicious of 100% belief in the scientific method, just as I am suspicious of the justice system. These are things that we really don't want to think about being wrong or fallible, because it's all that we have. I think the premise is remotely plausible. However, being able to prove it via the scientific method may not be. (Synchronicity, that is, not waltzing wolves.) Elitist Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 02:57 pm [Click here to edit this post] Hey Ocean, I totally agree with you - I think the premise is remotely plausible. And I will continue to think about it and watch to see if anything develops. I will definitely not change my life believing it is a fact, though. The truth is, I think a lot of the crazy things are remotely possible. Ghosts, ESP, UFOs, the Roswell accident, God, channeling, spirit walks, and so forth. But I don't let them control how I live my life. And if they hit me over the head, I will look for the guy behind the curtain, then load my pants with sh!t, then fall on my knees and thank the heavens I am so fortunate. Adven39 Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 03:16 pm [Click here to edit this post] Don't let him turn you, Elitest! It's an old Jedi trick. Beware of the power of the dark side! Elitist Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 03:22 pm [Click here to edit this post] "Elitist, I am your father" - Ocean Islands Gomer Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 03:31 pm [Click here to edit this post] And now The end is near and as I face The final curtain------- F Sinatra words and music by P Anka (in response to the original question) Adven39 Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 03:31 pm [Click here to edit this post] Okay. I don't laugh much at posts - other than my own - but that was hilarious. Ocean_Islands Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 03:36 pm [Click here to edit this post] Are you saying Adven that you don't think it is REMOTELY possible? Please don't tell me you are closed minded! Katie Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 03:38 pm [Click here to edit this post] Ok I have been thinking about this since this thread started and debating if I should post to it or not and I have decided to do it. Slightly over four years ago I was in an really bad marriage. I stayed and stayed because I honestly felt that was all there was in life. Lousy relationships.Finally when I was as low as I could get, I decided that I would rather be alone then living like that and left my husband and moved into an apartment alone. I was ready and prepared to live the rest of my life alone. A month later I got a computer so I could continue to play on it like I had and during my exploring I found a site that has a listing for pen pal. I thought it would be fun to met some people from around the country or even around the world. I posted a reqest for a pen pal making it very clear I only wanted a pen pal and nothing else. I only posted once. I got 12 reponses, all male which wasn't what I had hoped for. I was hoping to find people who were in the same situation as I was hopefullysome women. Anyway 4 of the men were only interested in cybersex so I just ignored them and put them on block. There were four men that altough they were nice, were interested in a relationship so I politely told them I wasn't interested and then put them on block too. I was left with four men who were all very nice. One was a cardioligist from Pennsyvania, one was a cowboy from Texas and one was a engineer from California and one was a guy from the NW who did work in schools. I wrote to all of these guy regularly but one guy stood out from the rest. It as if we had always known each other right from the beginning. We enjoyed writing back and forth with each other. In time we started chatting and later phone calls. By the time my divorce was done two years later, we were best friends and I had realized that we were soul mates and moved to the same city where he lives. It is strange because I only posted that one time. He only read those posting every three or four months and that time he only read them that one day. I met my soul mate in this way. When I finally got strong enough to leave that marriage, I met my sould mate. Coincidence? Ocean_Islands Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 03:40 pm [Click here to edit this post] No. Gomer Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 03:45 pm [Click here to edit this post] Yes Adven39 Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 03:55 pm [Click here to edit this post] No, I'm not close-minded (although I suspect this is one of those Jedi tricks I was talking about). I knew as soon as I put "remotely" in front of "plausible" I'd made a mistake. I was just hoping it would slide. I should have known you'd both pick up on it. Gomer Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 04:31 pm [Click here to edit this post] [ ] Elitist Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 06:56 pm [Click here to edit this post] Well are you ready for my ghost story? Tough, here it is. When we adopted my son, we met the birth parents and they kept in contact with us. They took it pretty rough even though we were all committed to the adoption (adoption is really tough). About 6 months went by when we got a call from the birthmother about 11 at night. The birthfather had died unexpectedly. We felt really weird that night, my wife claiming she felt a "presence" in the room, but I kinda laughed it off. We noticed after that our son would start staring over our shoulders like something or someone was there. We said it must be his angel. (probable explanation - light or reflection of light that fascinated him). Then there was this electronic toy he had that you could push buttons and it would play sounds or music. The interesting thing about it was that if you moved it enough, it would play "Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star" (it was designed to do this). Well that was OK, but we would sitting in one room then all of sudden it would start playing that song. And this wasn't just once, this was a lot of times (more than 25, probably less than 100) over the months, and sometimes we would be in the room when it did it. (expl. - glitch in the electronics). Then there was the time we were watching television and he was in his baby bouncer fast asleep. I was watching him and noticed the bouncer was gently rocking of its own accord. He was not moving and wasn't really breathing that deeply. (expl. - he was moving just enough to move the bouncer - they don't take much). We weren't too worried, we joked we knew who it was and that we were haunted. Then at Christmas my wife decorated our mantle with all sorts of stuff and backed it up with a cheap full length mirror. Well I was sitting in my rocking chair with the baby and all of a sudden the mirror started sliding off the mantle place and crashed to the floor with glass everywhere. (the mirror wasn't put up there too securely). Finally, one night I was holding him in the chair, and we had a table next to the chair on which I had placed a plastic glass I had been drinking out of. All of a sudden the glass went flying off the table and onto the floor. (either it was unstable too, or I or my son knocked it off without knowing). What really got us worried though was our son started seeing "A Man" in his room when the lights were out. I just thought it was imagination, but of course we were predisposed to think otherwise. Finally one night the three of us were in bed when he started saying "That Man". I decided to use a little psychology and started talking to the air in a real mean voice "Get out of here, leave us alone, get out of our house". It started scaring my wife because she thought I saw something. It worked though, he never saw the man again, and our other phenomena seemed to subside. (purely imagination and psychology). I say subside. For some reason I have woken up in bed and the bed seems to be vibrating like a hotel bed you put the quarters in, but much more gentle. I finally asked my wife if anything like that had happened to her and she said yeah, it happens to her all the time. Who knows what that is (we must be having earth tremors in Texas or our house is extremely unstable). So what do you think? Coincidence, ghosts, synchronicity, Prozac? Should we call an exorcist? Oh by the way, all of this is absolutely true, no kidding. So even us logical thinkers sometimes have to wonder if there isn't more to it than we think. Sorry Adven. Elitist Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 07:13 pm [Click here to edit this post] Oh and Katie, thanks for sharing. But coincidence or not? Definitely coincidence. Adven39 Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 08:43 pm [Click here to edit this post] No need to apologize, Elitest, the dark side has powers we can never hope to comprehend. Actually, lest I be branded a total cynic, I have a true story of my own to share. A number of years ago my brother's seven year old daughter was rushed to intensive care with a rare, brutal and potentially fatal disease. She battled this disease for days, enduring some of the most gruesome procedures imaginable designed to keep her alive. She teetered daily between times that she might recover completely and other times when the doctors expected her to die at any moment. While in the hospital, my brother and his wife struck up a friendship with another couple who were in there because of a very difficult pregnancy the woman was experiencing. About a week after my niece was admitted to hospital, she stabilized. At the same time, the young woman went into labor and immediately there were life-threatening complications that put the baby at serious risk. In fact, this couple later said that one doctor admitted that he didn't think the baby could be saved and if it did survive, it would have significant brain damage. While this was going on, my niece, inexplicably, suffered a massive electrolyte imbalance and most of her major organs began to malfunction. She died within hours. Conversely, the baby, just as inexplicably, recovered and was delivered without incident and perfectly healthy. As hokey as it may sound, the hospital records indicated that my niece died at the exact minute this baby was born. The couple named their daughter after my niece and the friendship started at the hospital continues today. My sister-in-law swears that the daughter of this couple has many of the mannerisms and personality traits of my niece. Regardless, the relationship between this girl and my brother's family is remarkably close. So, to me, the argument of whether this story qualifies as a coincidence or something appraoching the spiritual, is secondary to the fact that this girl has helped my brother's family through an anquish that no parent should have to endure and the girl has another family that loves, cherishes and supports her. This in itself is magical. |
Whit4you | Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 12:16 am   Digilady Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 08:46 pm [Click here to edit this post] A quick shot for the synchronicity arg: In chat, just before Roger had his 10 minutes on the board, I made a quick joke about his computer locking right in the middle of it. And guess what? It did. He doesn't usually have puter probs, either. hmmmmmm Gomer Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 08:51 pm [Click here to edit this post] Altho he said on boards after the fact that he WAS having computer problems earlier and had a backup in case---seema closer to murphy's law than anything else Noslonna Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 09:26 pm [Click here to edit this post] I remember using the word, "Einstein" at least once in a post, for whatever it is worth. What can I say -- I believe in backwards forward thinking. But Billie Boy is my fav. Sandyc Thursday, October 19, 2000 - 11:36 pm [Click here to edit this post] Adven39 - Could it be that someone's need was so great that they reached out with psychic Einsteinian waves of power and touched another to create the effect needed? And to say 'may sound hokey' indicates to me that you are worried about being laughed at for having been moved by a synchronistic experience. Is there no one in the serious scientific community studying brain waves who is also trying to determine if we can project psychically. I think if anything the emanations are there, it's just the reception that is lacking. Or the awareness of the reception. Why are some of us more open minded than others? Why are some more magnetic? Why are some more empathetic? Why are our first impressions important? (Using the universal 'you' she continues) -- I have to confess. I believe that we are all connected by an energy force that we transmit on. In contact with you I can't read your mind but I can 'pick up' on how you are. I can sense your emotions. True, I can see, hear, touch, smell, and taste you -- that gets me the outside of you. My awareness of the inside of you must come from something else -- something you project -- in person. I can't get it from what is typed here. What's here is just part of your thinking mind being transmitted. Half or less of your brain power. Because of us and in spite of us, and through that energy that connects us all, synchronicity does exist, on purpose. Resortgirl Friday, October 20, 2000 - 06:04 am [Click here to edit this post] Katie, I think we are living parallel lives! Same situation, married for 7 unhappy years, left him, moved into a crappy one bedroom apartment but no longer felt lonely. One night some male friends were going out and I literally begged to go out even though they claimed it was a *boys* night out. I don' know why I was so insistant, but just felt I *had* to go. At about 12:30 am... minutes before they were getting ready to leave a man asked me to dance. The minute I heard his voice and saw his eyes I knew! We have been married for 11 years. I KNOW that it was not coincedence. Ocean_Islands Friday, October 20, 2000 - 06:47 am [Click here to edit this post] Musta been the "seven year itch"! Resortgirl Friday, October 20, 2000 - 07:05 am [Click here to edit this post] Not really Ocean... I tried to leave in year two and he threatened to kill me.... Adven39 Friday, October 20, 2000 - 08:05 am [Click here to edit this post] Ocean, is it just me, or is this thread starting to shift in your direction? SandyC, there have been a number of reputable research projects that have delved into the area of psychic phenomenon and the paranormal. I seem to remember reading somewhere that Duke University has an entire department devoted to this. My understanding is that nothing earth-shattering has yet been discovered - at least nothing that the academic community is willing to embrace or get excited about with any confidence. This could mean a number of things: the empirical method, and those who apply it, is flawed, this sort of thing exists outside the parameters of our ability to "prove" it or it simply doesn't exist. Although I believe the last one to be true, I am not such a rabid defender of science as to believe it can provide all answers. I do think, though, that the scientific method provides us with the best and most reliable means of separating truth from speculation at this point in our history. Science deals with what can be observed, recorded and independently duplicated. It's strength is in examining the physical world. If paranormal phenomenon exists, I believe it is on a metaphysical level that is beyond the reach of pure science. If this is so, we will likely not be able to categorically demonstrate it's existence for a very long time, if ever. Ocean_Islands Friday, October 20, 2000 - 08:27 am [Click here to edit this post] I agree with what you are saying about the scientific method. What I have a problem with is defenders of the scientific method who are blinded by their devotion. Amazing things can happen in science, you know; never rule anything out. "Everything has already been said." -- Egyptian novelist, 400 B.C. "Everything that can be invented has been invented." -- C. Duell, Commissioner, U.S. Office of Patents, 1899 Wcv63 Friday, October 20, 2000 - 08:44 am [Click here to edit this post] OI....when it comes to matters of the inexplicable I tend to be skeptical but not close minded. I am truly convinced that there are forces at work (call it coincidence, call it God, call it Karma)that have touched my life personally. Vasix Friday, October 20, 2000 - 08:57 am [Click here to edit this post] Okay, my two cents: 1. Incredible thread you guys. Way off the game but makes up for it in quality and accepting the diversity of thoughts. 2. I think syncron defenders are idealists trying to make Hope visible in portrait form. And I think people who don't see syncron (like me) are cynics trying to make sure every thing has a provable, scientific, documented connection. Because us cynics never want to be disappointed again. PS: The second cent was just broad sweeping stuff, I know its not all or nothing, I was just posing two views and used generalities. Flint Friday, October 20, 2000 - 09:39 am [Click here to edit this post] Synchronicity? The Police song? Oh no my bad, not the song. It is an interesting concept. Mind you, us Bluenoser's tend to call them forerunners. ( A Bluenoser is someone who lives in Nova Scotia, or was from here.) A forerunner is a sign, portent, foreshadowing of an event, usually a death. Most stories about them mention specific types. As someone else mentioned a photo falling off a mantle and the glass breaking, signifying someones (the person in the photo) death. Or three raps on a wall or door when no one is around. The noise coming at the time of a person's death. Sort of makes ya wonder when those damn tree branches rap on the windows a few times on windy nights, eh? ;) I am not normally a superstitious person, however, I do believe in forerunners. Years ago I had my own experience with them. There I was cruising around at 10,000 feet in the air with nothing between me and the air but a svelte blonde. Ooops, wrong story. It was back in the late 80's. My grandfather was diagnosed with cancer and in the hospital. The doctors felt they had caught it early and would be able to treat it. One night, my mother and grand mother (her mom) were off at the hospital visiting him. A couple of my friends were over, and we were in my room playing an RPG. My father was upstairs with the dogs. All of a sudden, out of the blue, the dogs (3 of them) just started howling loudly for no reason. Howling, not barking or yapping at a noise outside the house. Full out, loud howling. After a minute, they stopped but were very agitated. About 10 minutes later my mother called. My grandfather was dead. The time of death was at the exact time the dogs started howling. Coincidence? It could be, but who knows for sure? It wasn't the last time something like that happened. Years after my father died it happened again. My mom was home alone. Her mother was in Alberta visiting relatives. The dogs started howling for no reason. About an hour later, my mom's brother called to let her know their mother had died. The time of death was the same time the dogs started howling. You can slough it off as conicidence. That is easy enough to do. I can't say that though. There is coincidence and then there is something else. Anyway, enough rambling. As always, that was just ... My 2 cents. <file:///C:/BBFC/game1/clipart/habs.gif> Ocean_Islands Friday, October 20, 2000 - 10:53 am [Click here to edit this post] Hmmm -- that reminds about another study that I'm familiar with. They did experiments to try to test the 'extra sense' that dogs have. They put video cameras in dog owner's homes. They discovered that the dogs would go over to the window or by the door and wait there at the time that their owners were driving back home. This was not just at the end of a work day, which would be understandable, but on the weekends, during the day and at unexpected times. They have also discovered that some dogs are able to detect when an epileptic fit is approaching for an epilepsy sufferor. Severe epileptics have these dogs in their homes to tell them when a seizure is approaching. But scientists do not know how certain dogs do this. Fruitbat Monday, October 23, 2000 - 12:46 pm [Click here to edit this post] Ocean said......<<<<<What I have a problem with is defenders of the scientific method who are blinded by their devotion.>>>>> Well said. I just found this thread and am sorry I wasn't here to join you when you were the lone voice, Ocean. And who would have thought to find this conversation in the Game section? I must come over here more often. I forget now who adressed this but...science has NOT given up on trying to proove the existence of "god" and inexplainable phenonemon. The "spiritual" will be proved by science in time. Scientists, themselves, claim this to be possible and are working on this as we type. I use quotes as everyones verbal shorthand differs. That matters little to me, actually. So many of us are looking to be hit over the head with overwhelming proof, in our own immediate experience that we totally miss that it happens daily. I do not believe in coinsidence. Making a phone call to find that the line is busy because that person is calling us, is a common example of the energetic connection we have with others. To deny that something exists because we cannot prove it is curious to me. As science evolves it recognises it's own past errors. It is not the bottom line. Kudos, Adven and Elitist for sharing your curious experiences. I love an open mind. The death of your niece and birth of the baby gave me goose bumps, Adven. A dog story: Our neighbor, Buzzy, gave his dog, Morris, to a friend 25 miles away when he moved to another state and could not take him. A year later Buzzy came to visit us and several hours after his arrival Morris appeared on our door step. Coinsidence?.....(to be said in your best Rod Seiger voice.) Ocean_Islands Monday, October 23, 2000 - 01:30 pm [Click here to edit this post] That's really interesting; I had not addressed the phenomena of pets finding their way home, and so forth, which incidents have occurred so often. If you go in the game and read the "Death" thread -- that it what inspired this exploration of these issues. Flint Monday, October 23, 2000 - 01:44 pm [Click here to edit this post] When we lived in Ontario we had a grey cat, of course she was named Smokey. She had been with us for a couple of years, and would always sleep on one of my brothers pillows. One day she vanished. After a couple of months we gave up hope, she did have a habit of checking out strange cars if the windows were down. [ ] One day, about 3 months after that, my mother heard a noise on the screen door. She went to the door and saw a ratty looking grey cat. When she opened the door the cat rushed in and took off upstairs, right onto my brothers pillow. She slept for hours. Mom checked her out, and except for being a little thin, and having pads that were almost raw, she was fine. It was Smokey. [ ] About 6 months later we moved back to Cape Breton Island. Several years after we moved there Smokey would vanish for days at a time, a few times a week at a time. She would ALWAYS return home though. One day one of my brothers thought he saw her going into a house at the top of the hill, on the street next to us. My mother knew the people, and talked to them about it. Sure enough, one day our cat had decided to head into this house. The elderly couple thought she was a stray and decided to adopt her. They would worry when she vanished, which is when she would return home. So Smokey had two homes. A few years later my father got transferred to Dartmouth N.S.. The day the For Sale sign went up in our yard Smokey never strayed again. She would always be home every day. Mom got a call from the couple up the street, they thought something happened to Smokey. They were happy to hear she was ok, but sad to see her go. It is strange, but Smokey KNEW we were moving, and I guess she didn't want to be left behind. I don't know how science would explain that one. ;)That is just ... My 2 cents. Ocean_Islands Monday, October 23, 2000 - 02:01 pm [Click here to edit this post] Bless my whiskers, if a cat won't find a way to claw its way home through hell and high water, and no matter what happens, always land on all fours! As they say, "The cat came back" ! Sometimes a pvssy just needs some extra lovin'. She was getting some on the outside in more ways than one -- not to be catty or anything. Twiggyish Monday, October 23, 2000 - 02:11 pm [Click here to edit this post] My husband and I have had some very unexplainable instances in our lives. One really freaky incident involved our first dog. About 15 years ago, we had a mixed breed dog, Sandy. She was our baby, as we hadn't any children. Since she was still a puppy, we put Sandy in the screened patio at night with papers. Sometime in the night, I heard my husband mumble excitedly. It was then I felt something heavy on my legs and saw a black shadowy shape leap from our bed. Both of us asked loudly how the dog could have gotten in the house. My husband had seen her shape at my feet at the sametime I felt her there. When we turned on the light, both of us looked everywhere. Sandy was NOT in the house. We were both shocked to find her sound asleep in the patio. Ocean_Islands Monday, October 23, 2000 - 02:13 pm [Click here to edit this post] Don't stop the story there! What happened NEXT? Elitist Monday, October 23, 2000 - 02:48 pm [Click here to edit this post] Fruitbat, You made this statement: "To deny that something exists because we cannot prove it is curious to me. As science evolves it recognises it's own past errors. It is not the bottom line." It isn't that we deny something exists, we just ask for enough proof that it does exist. Yes there a lot of "stories" or spurious proof (many people have called someone and had the phone busy because they were being called) but these are not objective proof that a spirit world exists or that synchronicity is real. Most of these stories can be explained by natural phenomena, statistical randomness, or the subjective human mind. The real problem lies, however, in the waste of individuals in their time, effort, and money believing these pseudo-sciences and religions based on pseudo facts. For instance it is one thing for me to keep an open mind to such things as synchronicity or ghosts but another thing entirely for people to be duped out of their possessions to a so-called channeler, or even worse to give their life to a cult such as Heaven's Gate. And the root is there - the gullibility of people when they believe everything they hear because it "sounds" or "feels" right without true evidence. The scientific method, though fallible, is the best we humans have come up with to separate the wheat from the chaff. Does it scoff at some of the topics here? Yes it does. But researchers still investigate these topics using sound practices, at least until they are convinced that the pursuit is leading nowhere. And the real problem (again) with these topics is that researchers cannot prove a negative result. The best you can do is prove that something does exist or is a certain way. The only way I can prove the Earth is not flat is by proving it is round. How do you prove synchronicity exists? You either have to show that the coincidences are outside of what would be statistically probable or show the underlying "purpose" present behind it. Enough for now. Fruitbat Monday, October 23, 2000 - 04:13 pm [Click here to edit this post] Eli, It would have been better for me to have said, I don't require scientific proof to believe something exists nor do I believe something is true and acurate because science says it is. I do not believe anything is random, however. It really boils down to a belief system. Religion, cults, (if I wanted to start a fire storm I would admit I put those two together) palm readers and psychics (those that claim powers beyond everyones natural abilities to tap this awareness, on occasion) are in a catagory that I do not visit. Lumping everything that is not science into one catagory is an inaccurate assumption. I find it difficult to discuss this very interesting topic when this happens. I am not saying you are doing this, just that many often do. Adven39 Monday, October 23, 2000 - 04:30 pm [Click here to edit this post] I kind of expected you to re-emerge when this thread made it's way back to the top, Elitest. Welcome back. Watch out for your father, by the way, young Jedi. He's around here somewhere. Twiggyish Monday, October 23, 2000 - 05:45 pm [Click here to edit this post] Oceans, nothing further to it. Our dog lived to a grand old age and we never had any other nightly visits. Now from a scientific stand point, it is possible the whole incident was a dream. Who knows? I can tell you it felt real at the time. Ocean_Islands Monday, October 23, 2000 - 06:06 pm [Click here to edit this post] Well, if I had a black dog jump on me in the dark that wasn't really a dog, I'd try to forget about it too, Twig! ===== In response to Elitist and Fruitbat: I hate to bring this up, but there is a school of thought (admittedly, from the Renaissance) that God exists MERELY because we can CONCEIVE of God. So perhaps these things exist for this reason. Otherwise, why would we think of them? Adven39 Monday, October 23, 2000 - 06:57 pm [Click here to edit this post] And, if you want to get really esoteric, we exist merely because we say we do. As Descartes said, "I think, therefore, I am." |
Whit4you | Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 12:18 am   Bijoux Monday, October 23, 2000 - 06:59 pm [Click here to edit this post] Elitest and Adven39 - How would you go about determining scientifically the existence of synchronicity? For example, we would probably need to start with some assumptions. Let's assume that people have energy and that somehow energy can form connections between people (I know - the assumption of this type of energy has not been proven scientifically - but work with me on this.) Now we have an assumption, we need a theory. Probably standard theories of physics, etc. would not apply. Are you familiar with chaos theory (over simplifying - observed complexity and unexplained phenomenon can sometimes be explained by a simple model)? Suppose synchronicity is another application of chaos theory as applied to the movement of human energy. Just an idea I'm throwing out for discussion. Ocean_Islands Monday, October 23, 2000 - 07:15 pm [Click here to edit this post] Bijoux, great idea! You're a jewel! Bijoux Monday, October 23, 2000 - 07:17 pm [Click here to edit this post] Thanks ocean. [ ] Adven39 Monday, October 23, 2000 - 07:27 pm [Click here to edit this post] I am vaguely familiar with chaos theory, Bijoux. At least, I saw Jurassic Park. I think the problem with your suggested model, is that it requires that one assumption be built on another, if I understand you correctly. In order to "prove" anything, I think you need to start with a single, clearly defined assumption and work toward showing it to be true. In the case of synchronicity, the only way I can think of to show it exists is through statistical analysis. I don't even know if such a thing is possible, but you would define mathematically the odds of a particular coincidental event happening randomly, as you would by throwing dice, and then you would set up a model, again if possible, that would do the same thing for what we are calling a synchronistic event. If the incidence of synchronistic events in the analysis is significantly higher than should be mathematically expected through chance or coincidence, then you may have some evidence that something beyond coincidence exists. The problem then becomes, though, to define what has been discovered and explain how it happens. Ocean_Islands Monday, October 23, 2000 - 07:40 pm [Click here to edit this post] I think you're putting the proverbial cart before the mythical horse, AdV. First you have to find a predictable event, don't you? Bijoux Monday, October 23, 2000 - 07:58 pm [Click here to edit this post] Interesting response. A statistical analysis would need to rely on a definition of the observed event. A difficult task. I have a friend that I speak to about every 3 or 4 days. He is a news junkie, so I call him after the evening news programs, then dinner, are over. Whenever I call him he tells me that he was just thinking about calling me. Wow, must be ESP. He is quite entralled with the idea that we have some kind of ESP connection so that my observation that it is pretty much a habit when we talk goes in one ear and out the other. If the problem of definition could be overcome, I think that the method would work. Chaos theory relies more on the simulation of an event. The models used do not have analytical solutions, so statistical analysis does not apply. In this case, we would predict the outcome of an event based on a model. If the outcome of the event consistently matches what the model predicts, then that is one proof. What is different about chaos theory is that it is based on the assumption that choatic events can be modelled simply. Chaos theory was used to determine why Jupiter's red spot, a stable system, exists with the very chaotic system of swirling liquid that makes up the planet. As applies to synchronicity, maybe it is possible for human energy to create a stable connection between two people within the chaos of swirling human energy in a manner that can be modeled. Bijoux Monday, October 23, 2000 - 08:07 pm [Click here to edit this post] Forgot to add that no definition of what constitutes synchronicity is needed. Adven39 Monday, October 23, 2000 - 08:27 pm [Click here to edit this post] Ocean, I don't believe the event has to be predictable theoretically, but, I admit, I can't think of any plausible model that would allow coincidental or synchronistic human activity to be recorded and analyzed in any way that would clearly separate the two and allow us to draw any useful conclusions. Bijoux, I see what you are getting at and, yes, I believe that chaos theory could be useful as you describe it. Again, as with my reference to statistical analysis, I can't imagine what that model might be or how it might work. Bijoux Monday, October 23, 2000 - 08:31 pm [Click here to edit this post] I'd use a poisson distribution. It's for estimating the probability of events that happen, but rarely. Actually, I'd hire a statistican. Statistics weren't my forte in college. Digilady Monday, October 23, 2000 - 09:44 pm [Click here to edit this post] What is life itself but synchronicity? (I have not read all these posts, this may have come up). The Big Bang. A certain set of circumstances, the proper gasses, minerals, etc... Just right for a cell to form... multiply... and presto, in what is a small belch of time in the time line, humanity. Then again, one could argue Chaos Theory here as well. This segues (sort of off-topic) to something that has always fascinated me. Given the circumstances above, a life-sustaining environment occurs, whether random or not. Given the size of the universe. Is there any statistical probability that there is not life elsewhere? I personally feel that to think there is NO possibility of intelligent life anywhere but on Earth is the height of egocentricity. And you others? (Bijoux: in college, I was a Computer Sci major with math minor. Fair to middlin good grades <snark>. With ONE FOUL exception. Stats. The word itself turns me pale. Elitist Monday, October 23, 2000 - 09:51 pm [Click here to edit this post] Well luckily I have had some training in statistics, unfortunately I haven't had a chance to bone up on chaos theory. My understanding of chaos theory from what I have read though was more on the lines that even random/chaotic events had some pattern to them that could be elucidated through equations derived from the theory. That is why you get these sci-fi stories on guys using chaos theory to win Keno or the lottery. I think your basic assumption about a human energy would be the place to start, however. If you can prove that (which seems a much easier task than proving synchronicity) then you would have strong basis to explain a lot of things. Unfortunately until you do that, the basis of your whole theory is pretty shaky. Unfortunately there isn't a lot of evidence that such an energy exists, at least that has any significant influence outside of the body (meaning the electrochemical reactions that make the body and brain work). I like the idea about testing synchronicity. What kind of experiment could you make? Does it necessarily have to involve humans? How about this - take two decks of cards, pick one out of one deck, then throw the other up into the air. Count the number of cards that fall face up that match the suit of the card you picked. Repeat this thousands of times. If the suits match up more than statistics indicate, would this be coincidence or synchronicity? We could even vary the type/mindset of the person who picks the card and throws up the deck. I will think on this for a while. Elitist Monday, October 23, 2000 - 09:53 pm [Click here to edit this post] Oh, and Hi Adven. The Dark Side has not claimed me yet. But I do keep seeing dark dogs out of the corner of my eye. Elitist Monday, October 23, 2000 - 10:12 pm [Click here to edit this post] Twiggy, About your black dog experience. The only thing I find remarkable about it is that both of you experienced it at the same time. That lends some credence to what you saw/felt was real. There are a lot of things that can happen during sleep, or more importantly right between sleep and waking. Some of the phenomena are paralysis and hallucinations. Many of the so-called UFO abduction experiences in which the subject says they can't move can be explained by the paralysis phenomena (I can't remember the technical term - can someone look it up?). The real question is was what you saw real, or did one of you have a dream about a subject that you were thinking about (young dog on porch) that translated into some sort of communication to the other. Do either of you talk in your sleep. Or did your husband excited mumbling perhaps contain some reference to the dog that triggered your own waking experience? You will probably never know, but you will have your own "story" to tell for the rest of your life. Now if there had just been some black hair on the bed, or maybe a gnawed bone on the floor... Bijoux Monday, October 23, 2000 - 10:19 pm [Click here to edit this post] Thanks for a clearer explanation of chaos theory. I'll add that another aspect is that the equations represent an underlying simplicity to what appears random or highly complex. I.e., observed complexity is not derived from a complex system of equations. I've only been reading about chaos theory recently and hadn't heard of the use of it for gambling. Now we're back on the what's been proved and what's believed thread. I believe strongly in human energy and the use of it to make our own "luck." I would go on to say that the observed ability of people able to levitate, or change the temperature of their body represents the use of this energy. At least what I define to be this energy. Twiggyish Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 06:09 am [Click here to edit this post] Elitist, that is a possibility. My husband did say something about the dog. It is possible his suggestion did trigger my dream. Anyway, as you say, it makes for a good story. We had a good chuckle about it afterward. Oceans, haven't you ever had anything unexplained happen to you? Digilady Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 06:53 am [Click here to edit this post] Twig, can I respond to that one? (I think this falls under deja vu, though!) First time I ever went to London, I went with my Mom and Dad. I was about 15 or so. We went out for a bottle of booze and promptly got =very= lost. We had walked for blocks when my Dad finally said "Let's pack it in & take a cab." I said "No! Two more blocks straight ahead. Take a right, go one block, and take another right." We did so, and there it was - an ancient booze store. Dated back centuries, used to be (or still was, I'm not certain now) a pub. Memorized a map? No pubs on the maps I had. What explanation could there be? I'd never been to London, we'd only been there 2 days, and the first had been spent sleeping. Ocean_Islands Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 07:20 am [Click here to edit this post] You're a real booze hound, Digitalgirl! I must admit I have an incredible knack for finding Pizza Huts and Subshops. Fruitbat Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 07:55 am [Click here to edit this post] And apparently a real lush in the previous life when she frequented the joint. <file:///C:/BBFC/game1/clipart/teeth.gif> Elitist Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 08:52 am [Click here to edit this post] Bijoux - well lets talk about levitation and changing the temperature of one's body. I have seen and read a lot of stuff on levitation, and there really hasn't been any concrete proof that anyone has levitated. There were some pretty good hoaxes. I liked the one where they go to some distant village and the guy is sitting in mid-air in his robes with one hand on a walking stick that is touching the ground. The scientists were overwhelmed, took pictures, made sure there was nothing underneath him. Much later the villagers showed how it was done - the walking stick was actually anchored in the ground and an extension went through the arm of the guru's robe and ended in a small seat that he was sitting on. Villagers bamboozle scientists. Then you have the guys with their legs crossed hopping around the room saying they are levitating. They look more like ducks with their wings cut off (and get as far off the ground) and is both hilarious and pathetic at the same time. Then there were the experiment where they took a guru that claimed he could levitate and put him in a conducive environment and asked him to perform. The only difference in the environment was that he was sitting on a scale. The idea was that if he levitated, the scale would show some decrease in mass. He performed gyrations and did indeed get most of his body in the air, but there was always one part touching and the scale never varied significantly. He claimed he had levitated. Levitation should be easy to prove. If they are levitating, you should be able to go up to them and move totally around them to make sure there are no suspending mechanism, and voila', you have proved the point. But you can't let them control the environment - look at how many magic acts make you think they can levitate people when in actuality it is a trick of the trade. Look how gullible the scientists were with the villagers that used a simple trick to simulate levitation. Now the body temperature thing is a whole 'nother matter. Haven't read too much on this, but I can believe it. Physiological changes to the body that are controlled by the conscious mind are pretty common and I believe well documented. I don't see where this is any different and doesn't really require any extra "energy" to explain it. In fact, aren't stigmata a change brought on by the subconcious during a psychotic event (or an act of God if you want to go that way). Why do we have to evoke some mystical energy to explain things that can be explained in other, known, simpler ways? Who was it that said "Keep it simple, Stupid?". Elitist Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 08:57 am [Click here to edit this post] I would also like to say this has been a great thread and I am totally suprised that it hasn't degenerated into a bashing session (knock on wood). Suprised the Admin hasn't kicked us off, that the people here are having a good conversation with differing ideas and beliefs, and we are even getting a few laughs. Now if we could just get on Letterman. Wcv63 Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 09:46 am [Click here to edit this post] Actually Elitist, it seems as if Host and Admin have enjoyed the Syncronicity thread so much that they have made it a discussion topic in the house. {{Then you have the guys with their legs crossed hopping around the room saying they are levitating. They look more like ducks with their wings cut off (and get as far off the ground) and is both hilarious and pathetic at the same time.}} The mental image this paragraph evoked had me laughing till I cried! Bijoux Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 10:00 am [Click here to edit this post] Do I believe that people will create hoaxes to get attention? You betcha. Do I believe that levitation, etc. has been disproven? No. Maybe we do agree on something. I don't believe people who are able to change their body temperature are able to do so because of some "mystic energy." The ability to change body temperature, etc. is what I would call an example of the use of human energy. Let's go to something simpler. Medical testing of new drugs requires a comparison of the drug to a placebo. One reason placebos are used is because some people will get better regardless of what is used and also because some people will get better just because they believe that the medicine will cure them (one reason why snake oil salesmen are successful). Medical research is just beginning to explore the mind/body connection. If a person's mind is able to influence their physical being, then it seems possible to me that humans can also create an energy that can connect with another human being or animal. Would you settle for Leno if Letterman doesn't call? Karuuna Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 10:06 am [Click here to edit this post] Bijoux -- and one can add to those studies, the many new studies that show prayer makes a difference in both the ability of healing and the rapidity of healing. Well documented, scientific studies, using the scientific method. Interesting enough that such studies show that the patient's knowledge and participation in those prayers is beneficial. But even more interesting are the double blind studies that show that patients benefit when they *don't know* they are being prayed for, nor do their physicians. Elitist Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 10:23 am [Click here to edit this post] Wait Bijoux - you said "Do I believe that levitation, etc. has been disproven? No." Well that is what I was talking about before - we can't disprove levitation (you can't prove a negative) but we don't have to believe in it till it is proven. And as far as the mind influencing a person's well-being - Sure. But the step from there to creating an energy is the leap of faith that I don't see (at least the scientist part of me). Karuuna - I would really like a reference on the double blind studies where people were getting better from prayer when they didn't know they were being prayed for (is that good English or what?). If that study (or it should be studies to validate) is real, statistically significant, and reproducible, then that is something to go for. Please let me know if you can dig up some links for that. Has to be Letterman. I do have some standards. Fruitbat Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 10:49 am [Click here to edit this post] Elitist...I have not heard of a Stigmata ever being "real". Have you? They are investigated in the US and none have proven to be anything more than a hoax. I do not know about other countries but I suspect they are taken for real with no investigation in other places. I have seen the bouncing levitators it is humorous Wvc. What is even better, is to hear them talk after........they really believe they have done it. Bijoux <<<<I don't believe people who are able to change their body temperature are able to do so because of some "mystic energy." The ability to change body temperature, etc. is what I would call an example of the use of human energy. >>>>> I agree. There is the assumption, with some, that the power of the human mind and energy exchanges are mystical. Science and many spiritual concepts (I do not speak of religion here) are not seperate. The ability to affect another with the power of our thoughts and focus is very real as well. (Karuuna, above post) The word prayer, evokes the summoning of god and can confuse the actual phenomenon to be something ouside our own creation or control........for some, myself included. |
Whit4you | Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 12:19 am   aruuna Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 10:51 am [Click here to edit this post] Elitist - I know I've read more, but the only one I have at my fingertips is a book by Larry Dossey who did a review of the research in 1993. His book is called "Healing Words: The power of Prayer and the Practice of Medicine". He differentiates studies of petitionary prayer (praying for oneself), and two types of intercessionary prayer (when the patient knows about it and when they don't). I have a list of studies on hand, however I have to say it's been so long since I completed my degree and looked at this stuff, I can't remember which studies included the double blinds. I do know there are ongoing studies at NIMH, and Harvard Medical School, I don't know if those resources are online. Most of the studies have been done on patient attitude and religious belief, and the links between distant, intercessory prayer and healing are relatively new. I'll take a look on the net later this afternoon, and see what else I can find! Karuuna Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 10:57 am [Click here to edit this post] Elitist -- I take that back, I do still have one here - on distant intercessionary prayer. It's a study done by Randolph Byrd at San Fran General Hospital of 393 coronary care patients. Prayer groups from various parts of the US were assigned to treatment groups, and the study was double-blind, neither patients, doctors, nor nurses knew which groups were assigned to which test condition. The interesting result of this study is that patients who were prayed for did significantly better than non-prayed for patients, regardless of the distance away from their prayer group. The study reference is: "Positive Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Paryer in a Coronary Care Unit Population", Southern Medical Journal 81, no 7 (July 1988): 826-29. Karuuna Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 11:19 am [Click here to edit this post] Okay, now that I let myself get sucked into this thread, I can't stop. Is there a doctor in the house? Can we talk about my addictive personality? Earlier someone posited that a possible explanation for synchronistic events was some kind of energy transference. I'd like to hold out the theory that energy is not the medium. In quantum physics there is a phenomenon called a nonlocal event whereby two subatomic particles that have once been in contact will continue to effect each other even when they are no longer in contact, ie a change in one is correlated to a change in the other -- both instantly and to the same degree, *no*matter*how*far*apart*they*are. So far research has shown the following: nonlocal events are unmediated (do not depend on the transfer of energy), they are unmitigated (the strength of the changes does not become weaker with increasing distance), and they are immediate (they take place simultaneously). These events are repeatable, observable and predictable. However, they are, as of yet, unexplainable. <file:///C:/BBFC/game1/clipart/smirk.gif> Digilady Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 11:27 am [Click here to edit this post] Body temp? How about spontaneous combustion? I'm (relatively) certain that has been documented, in several cases. (Letterman??? NO! Leno, every time. LOL!) Wcv63 Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 11:33 am [Click here to edit this post] Digilady - A watched a television show about spontaneous combustion that was dedicated to proving that there are logical and outside factors involved in all instances. It was pretty interesting and I admit that by the time the show was over I was inclined to doubt that spontaneous combustion was real. Bijoux Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 11:38 am [Click here to edit this post] Karuuna, How is energy being measured? Digilady Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 11:59 am [Click here to edit this post] Bijoux - it's measured in "jewels" <sorry, there is just NO resistance, sometimes> Ocean_Islands Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 12:06 pm [Click here to edit this post] Karuuna isn't that phenomena known as the Uncertainty Principle? The charge of the particles is unknown until one of the two is measured; when the first one is measured, the other particle takes the opposite charge even though it may be miles away. That was a good one Dig! lol Elitist Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 12:10 pm [Click here to edit this post] And even though you have nonlocal events at the subatomic level, such events at the macro level are non-existent. An illustration: Wave theory and the Shrodinger wave function has an interesting outcome. If you put a particle in a two-dimensional box with the sides higher than the energy of the particle, the wave function does something interesting. Most of the probability of the particle is within the box, but there is some probability that the particle is outside of the box. Interesting outcome. More interesting is that the result has practical applications such as tunneling electron microscopes and I believe there are some tunneling electronic circuits. But lets take that to the macro scale. If I put you in a box, there is some probability that you will suddenly appear outside of the box. But when you go from the sub-atomic scale to the macro scale, that probability gets so small as to be insignificant (if I remember correctly there is a mass term in the wave functions). Likewise, I think if you look at the nonlocal events you describe, the distances you are talking about when you say the phenomena are unmitigated by distance are extremely small. And taking this and translating it to the macro scale and being meaningful or likely is pretty much like taking the tunneling effect and having Shrodinger's cat walk through walls. Of course we could put Leno in a box and see how long it takes him to appear outside of the box. And we would have to take into account the extra mass from his chin. And Digi - spontaneous combustion? Sure if you leave a bunch of oily rags in your garage you might see this, but in humans? Show Me The Money! Bijoux Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 12:17 pm [Click here to edit this post] Digi, You funny lady. Elitist Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 12:51 pm [Click here to edit this post] Well I have done a little reading on Chaos theory and wanted to share the following: Chaotic Systems are not random. They may appear to be. They have some simple defining features: 1. Chaotic systems are deterministic. This means they have something determining their behavior. 2. Chaotic systems are very sensitive are very sensitive to the initial conditions. A very slight change in the starting point can lead to enormously different outcomes. This makes the system fairly unpredictable. 3. Chaotic systems appear to be disorderly, even random. But they are not. Beneath the random behavior is a sense of order and pattern. Truly random systems are not chaotic. The orderly systems predicted by classical physics are the exceptions. In this world of order, chaos rules! In short chaotic systems can be investigated and equations built that model them. The difference is that traditionally there were only thought to be three types of systems - static, periodic, and random. The chaotic systems introduced a fourth type of system that did not fit the static or periodic model but still had some structure within them that could be modeled. Now how does this relate to our earlier conversation. Guess I will have to go back and look. Affinity Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 12:52 pm [Click here to edit this post] I have to take a class in Chaos Theory coming this January. I can share my thoughts after then ok Max Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 01:53 pm [Click here to edit this post] Well, I'm waaayyyy behind here, but I thought I'd butt in anyway and share. [ ] I prefer to call these kinds of occurances 'small miracles'. Here's one of my experiences. Not earth-shaking, but still... A friend and I were travelling in Europe together. It was the first time either of us had been there. We were daring and drove all over the place, through Germany and Austria, then flew to London and drove around England, ferried to Ireland, and so forth. By the time we got to London, it was apparent that we needed to ship some things home. Shopping was great, but carrying everything around was a drag! We looked up the local DSL office, consulted our trusty map, and started out. She drove and I navigated. Unfortunately, our communications got a bit messed up and we got off the freeway at the wrong exit. We were in a great part of London, but we didn't know where we were on the map. Traffic was a bear, of course, so I tried to pinpoint our location and she kept driving. Fortunately, neither of us paniced. We just figured we were taking the "scenic route." We turned a corner and right in front of us was a DSL truck. My friend was starting to feel a bit frazzled, what with driving on the 'wrong' side of the road and all that, so she said, "I'm just going to follow this guy!" I pointed out that he might still be making deliveries and we could end up with a complete tour of the city, but she said, "to heck with it, I'm following him!" I'm pretty laid back when on vacation, figuring everything has the potential of being an adventure, so that started sounding pretty fine to me. Anyway, we followed that truck and before you knew it, he pulled right into the DSL ofice where we needed to go! That kind of thing happened the whole three weeks we travelled. Every time we thought we were lost, we just went with the flow and the next thing we knew, we were right where we were supposed to be. Maybe it was just being open to the larger Karmic ebb and flow of the universe. Maybe it was because we didn't get crazy about it all. Maybe it was guardian angels watching over us. I don't care. It was a grand vacation. [ ] Bijoux Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 02:13 pm [Click here to edit this post] I brought up chaos theory in an attempt to open up some discussion on how we could try and determine whether synchronicity exists or if the events people claim are examples of synchronicity are just coincidental, random events. Since I had done some reading in chaos theory, the concept of order in what appeared chaotic seemed an option. The other issue that would need to be addressed though is what would we be modelling with chaos theory. What is the cause of synchronicity? Is it human energy? Is it something else? I don't know. I do believe that synchronicity does it exist though because . . . . My story to follow Ocean_Islands Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 02:22 pm [Click here to edit this post] It may very well be a chaotic system. The best way to understand a chaotic system is to think of the weather, which is exactly that. Affinity Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 02:26 pm [Click here to edit this post] ..or the stock market Adven39 Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 02:28 pm [Click here to edit this post] or the mole hunt Affinity Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 02:30 pm [Click here to edit this post] or Ocean Islands for that matter Bijoux Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 02:31 pm [Click here to edit this post] When I received my invitation to the Peace Corps it was stated in the letter that I would be working with small enterprise development in the Extreme-north province of Cameroon. When I showed people on a map of Cameroon where I would be working, I would point to the Adamaoua province. Even though a couple of people did point out to me that the letter said I would be working in an area two provinces away, I maintained that I would be working in the Adamaoua province. When I arrived in Cameroon I spent six weeks in language training and six weeks in technical training. About three weeks after I arrived I decided that it would be really nice if I could work with a woman boss because 1) I wouldn't be hit on (I had already had 2 marriage proposals by this time) and 2) I figured that any women working in a supervisory position in Cameroon would be twice as qualified as her male counterpart. During technical training we found out where our posts were. Three posts were in the extreme-north province, one was in the Adamaoua province. The one in the Adamaoua province had a female supervisor who had more education than anyone else in that office. The post was a last minute change and had only been finalized a week before technical training started. I was posted to the Adamaoua position. Since then I've had a number of experiences where I just "knew" something, even though all evidence existed to the contrary. Karuuna Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 05:48 pm [Click here to edit this post] Ocean - uncertainty is a bit more complex than that. I apologize in advance for this clumsy explanation, but it has been a few years since I did the physics thing. Anyway, it has more to do with the description of properties possessed by a certain entity, that pairs of the classical descriptors (position, energy, momentum, charge, etc) are interrelated, and cannot be simultaneously described in a precise way. The more we try to impose a particular descriptor, the more its related concept becomes uncertain, and the precise relationship between the two concepts is defined by the mathematics of the uncertainty principle. For example, if one tries to measure precisely the position of a particle, the momentum of the particle becomes hazy. Is that esoteric enough for ya? <file:///C:/BBFC/game1/clipart/crazy.gif> Karuuna Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 05:54 pm [Click here to edit this post] Elitist - in response to your comments about nonlocal events, and their improbability when taken to the macro level... I see your point, but your examples are dealing with the changed location of a large physical entity. But I'm applying that a bit differently re the studies about how prayer can affect a patient's recovery, when the prayer is not known by patient, or doctor, and the recovery effect is not mitigated by the distance that the prayer group is from the recipient. This is not quite the same as moving a cat out of a box. I'm just thinking out loud here... Ocean_Islands Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 06:15 pm [Click here to edit this post] Principally because one involves the physical world and the other the non-physical world, which brings us right back to Synchronicity and the difficulty encountered in even trying to approach a way to design an experiment to test it. Regarding the uncertainty principle, I gave the baby physics version, Ka, you gave the adult version. Ba ba goo goo. That's so much easier! Karuuna Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 06:35 pm [Click here to edit this post] I'm going to regret this later, but as I think about this more, more comes back to me. As I recall, one of the conclusions from uncertainty is that we *cannot* be an impartial observer, since the act of measuring changes the properties of the entity. Thus in studying the phenomena, we have an effect on it -- which changes a fundamental notion of science, that is that objects are totally distinct from each other. Rather it leads to a scientific view that the universe is better understood as an interconnected web, with actions in one area of the universe having a kind of ripple effect thru the entire universe... I'm going to stop now, all this complicated thinking gives me a headache. Actually I'm much better at inane, meaningless banter. Ocean_Islands Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 06:44 pm [Click here to edit this post] I'm not sure if 'impartial observer' is correct; I don't think that making a measurement indicates impartiality. It does, however, indicate interference. But that's what I was saying earlier on when I said that the particles were defined only when one was measured. I'm not sure what this has to do with synchronicity but it is yet another mystery. I'm not sure if I addressed, days ago, the fact that both quantum physics AND the theory of relativity cannot BOTH be true. Which is correct? Einstein didn't like quantum theory. This is one of the greatest conundrums of all. Ok, you can try some baby talk if you want! Twiggyish Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 06:47 pm [Click here to edit this post] **Dusting off my old Physics book and looking up Chaos Theory** I see this discussion going in many directions. Karunna, your prayer study did not mention which religion was involved. Bijoux, wouldn't your incident be a called a premonition? I wonder how scientists explain it. (Premonition) |
Whit4you | Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 12:20 am   aruuna Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 06:54 pm [Click here to edit this post] baa baa goo goo, and more inanity. Someone get me out of here and buy me a drink. Twiggy -- the prayer studies show that it matters not which faith you are, or who you pray to -- all the major faiths work equally well. Bijoux Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 07:00 pm [Click here to edit this post] Twiggyish, Maybe. It was also the case that I really didn't want to live in the extreme-north. The extreme-north province in Cameroon borders on the southern most part of the Sahelian desert. High summer temperatures were 110 - 120 degrees. The Adamaoua province is a savanna plateau. High summer tempertures 80 - 90 degrees, no humidity. I'd visit friends in the extreme-north during Christmas when the weather cooled off to a balmy 85 degrees. Synchronicity because I thought that was where I belonged and it happened or premonition? Twiggyish Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 07:06 pm [Click here to edit this post] I am sorry Karuuna, but the prayer study doesn't make sense. I wonder if a prayer from a minor faith made them sicker..lol It would seem (in my poor laywoman language) the prayer would have to be to an entity in order for there to be devine intervention. If that is the case, would this entity then be God? Your study did not state what illnesses the patients suffered or if their illnesses were exactly the same in both studies. Was a placebo involved? I question whether science can explain or prove prayer. In proving prayer, science would then have to acknowledge the existence of God. What an interesting study! Karuuna Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 08:29 pm [Click here to edit this post] Hi, Twiggyish -- I'm compelled to continue this discussion even tho I swear it ties my brain in knots. Is that synchronicity or obsession? There are various prayer studies. Some of them have folks praying for plant growth - the outcome of which is that the plants that are prayed for grow better and faster. I don't know that the studies prove anything at all about divine intervention. The studies do show that it doesn't matter if you're muslim or hindi or christian or universalist or buddhist (who don't pray to God per se, they pray to the universe), the prayer still works. There's simply no correlation between the personal beliefs of the prayer and the effectiveness of the prayer. In some studies, people are given a specific prayer to use, in others, they are only given a strategy -- such as use any psychological strategy you can to promote the healing/growth of this person/plant, etc. It still works. The one study that I did use as an example was of 393 current coronary care patients. All of the 393 patients were randomly assigned to the test conditions. None of those that were being prayed for knew they were being prayed for. I don't understand your question about the placebo... nothing in the study said anything about anything other than the standard medical care, other than the fact that some of the patients were prayed for and some were not. Again, I don't know that one can extrapolate the existence of God from these studies. I think that's a different matter entirely. The fact that it works, doesn't really tell us much about how or why it works. So no one's gonna buy me that drink? Okay, I'll just help myself. <file:///C:/BBFC/game1/clipart/updown.gif> Elitist Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 08:55 pm [Click here to edit this post] Karuuna - On the prayer stuff what I was trying to say was that you were taking a phenomenon at the subatomic level (nonlocal events) and extrapolating it to a macro event (the prayer study). Which is like taking the subatomic tunneling to the macro level of the cat. It just doesn't work that way. It might be an analogy, but is definitely no explanation of why the prayer thing worked like it did. It is like the observer affecting the observed comment I always hear. This is really only valid at the atomic level, and mostly because to do the observation you have to interfere with the observed to be able to observe it (how is that for a lot of observe words?). It doesn't matter a rat's a$$ at the macro level. Essentially the macro equivalent of observing something at the atomic level would be like determining the shape of a bowling ball by throwing other bowling balls at it and observing how they bounce off. Not too good for the bowling ball, and definitely not to good if you drop one on your foot. And the uncertainty principle - you can't know both the position and momentum of a particle. The more you know one, the fuzzier the other gets. Apparently scientists have been able to get some gases close to 0 K where the momentum of the particle approaches 0. Then they get this amorphous material that essentially act like one huge atom instead of a bunch of small atoms (you know the momentum, but you don't know the position at all). And if you shoot a laser through it the speed of light through the material goes down to about 38 miles per hour. Think about it. Elitist Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 09:00 pm [Click here to edit this post] I noticed that the board guests haven't quite taken to this topic as we have. And have a drink on me Karuuna. <file:///C:/BBFC/game1/clipart/smile.gif> Heck, everyone have a drink on me. <file:///C:/BBFC/game1/clipart/grin.gif> Karuuna Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 09:13 pm [Click here to edit this post] Elitist, there you go again, making my mind even more like a bowl of noodles than before. I have to confess my degree is in psychology with minors in biochem and philosophy, so I'm way out of my league here. I'll take that drink, and raise you one. And with that I'm off to my little hot tub to stare at the stars and ponder the mysterious subatomic universe. The more I drink, the fuzzier I'll get, and wrapping that 104 degree water around me should also reduce my light speed. By then I'll have all the answers, I won't care about the answers or I'll be sound asleep. <file:///C:/BBFC/game1/clipart/sleepy.gif> Elitist Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 09:24 pm [Click here to edit this post] Karuuna, you can't leave yet. With that type of background you have to give us a good long post on looking at synchronicity, prayer, spirits, deja vu, etc. from the point of view that they are not so much physical phenomena as they are the mysterious workings of the human brain. Come on, please, please, please, please? Hope you dream of quarks and snarks, Bosons, bozos and synchronicity. And when you wake with color and charm, You know where you are with some certainty. My treat. Karuuna Tuesday, October 24, 2000 - 10:44 pm [Click here to edit this post] Elitist -- I just can't say no to a man who begs. But I can say, you'll just have to wait till I'm ready. Thanks for the drinks, the intellectual stimulation (and resultant confusion!), and the poem. I'll write that essay for ya when I'm rested. 1000 words or less. I promise. <file:///C:/BBFC/game1/clipart/eh.gif> Lafatme Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 01:13 am [Click here to edit this post] i have to believe in synchronicity. it has happened on this board since the game began. during the time arreal was in the house katie and i were her biggest supporters. the game brought us together in a way i never thought could happen. because of arreal, katie and i are in love and having an affair! while i've read of things like this happening, i never thought it could happen to me! thanks neil! Twiggyish Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 08:35 pm [Click here to edit this post] Elitist, I am MADLY in love with you!! <file:///C:/BBFC/game1/clipart/kiss.gif> Elitist Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 09:44 pm [Click here to edit this post] Well Twig, I must admit that the first thing I did was go to the Truth or Dare thread to see if you had got caught in a dare. But now I am certain that synchronicity has reared its head again. I have been totally taken by the dark side. Adven, it is time for you to come to the rescue in the Millenium Falcon 'cause I am hanging by a thread here. Adven39 Wednesday, October 25, 2000 - 10:42 pm [Click here to edit this post] Sorry, Eli. There are forces at work here that I don't understand. Some might call it synchronistic. Some might say it is merely hormonal. It's why I hit the ejection seat button on this thread a little while back. I will say Twiggyish has good taste. May the force be with you. Noslonna Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 12:50 am [Click here to edit this post] What are the chances of Queen Amidala being mother to Princesss Leia? Not to mention Leia is twin to Luke. Coinkydink? I think not. Fruitbat Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 04:08 am [Click here to edit this post] Well, I bailed awhile back as my knowledge in physics is very limited and I had little to offer. I will interject a thought here and retreat until we exhaust the chaos theory. Take the word prayer and substitute focus. The phenomenon of which Karuuna speaks is not about religion. It just happened that the groups involved were Christian. (corrrect me if I am wrong but this is what I read) It was a group of people focusing on the healing of the patients. Their personal definition of god was irrevelent. This speaks to the theory that we all create our own experience with this same focus. We have many incidents that we ignore or chalk up to coincidense or luck. Is it really? We are back again to recognizing the gap between the provable and faith. Not in god, persay, but our own power of creating. Just thought I'd throw this out. The board is slow these days and I'm counting on this thread to move out of something I know nothing about. Selfish? You bet. <file:///C:/BBFC/game1/clipart/proud.gif> Ocean_Islands Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 04:15 am [Click here to edit this post] Well it did get a bit esoteric in the physics area which might have been better left alone, especially since none of us are physicists that I know of, and instead of making it simpler to understand we were going for complexity. I don't think it matters if the study groups involved were Christian or not as that seems decidedly beyond the point. However, Judeo/Christianity does address prayer more than other religions. The board is slow these days? Where the hell have YOU been? I think we could explore possible connections between Jung's synchronicity idea and the power of prayer. I don't think it has much to do with physics. Twiggyish Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 07:55 am [Click here to edit this post] Elitist, it was a dare..lol We had a fun time in chat last night. I hope you have a sense of humor, as it was meant in fun. Elitist Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 08:03 am [Click here to edit this post] Well I thought so, but I didn't think about the T&D moving to chat, even though I saw they did that. Duh. And I must admit my heart is broken. <file:///C:/BBFC/game1/clipart/smirk.gif> Well I promise to post more to this thread, hopefully today, and try to keep the physics out of it. But maybe not the psychics. Later Fruitbat Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 09:23 am [Click here to edit this post] Ocean...I have not been into the game. I came over to take a look and saw this thread. The rest of the board is a little slow. <file:///C:/BBFC/game1/clipart/wink.gif> The point I was trying to make was to get rid of the word "prayer" altogether. It's conotation is religious. It implies one is evoking a power outside of and greater than themselves. Focusing energy has nothing to do with any religions concept of a judgemental, all powerful, fear evoking, in charge, what have you, god. Ones own personal concept can be applied but it is not necessary to share the same belief system. If you want to do the organized relgious trip, fine, but this is more than that. Fruitbat Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 09:42 am [Click here to edit this post] T&D moving to chat? I am curious. [ ] Karuuna Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 10:23 am [Click here to edit this post] Fruitbat et al -- in the studies I've seen, the words "prayer", "meditation" and "psychological strategy" have all been used to denote the act that is used to promote healing. Let me just be clear too, while the perspective of folks on this board may be primarily Judeo/Christian, prayer is not. In fact as a matter of practice, Christians pray less than many other faiths. Buddhists are encouraged to pray constantly, they even walk around with prayer wheels to remind and reinforce that concept. The studies themselves have been multi-denominational, as I said before. Not necessary to categorize them as paying homage to an omnipotent, omniscient being of any sort, nor particulary a Christian one. Now Elitist, if I write that essay you requested, the challenge will be to include enough about synchronicity to keep it on topic... still want me to take a crack at it? I owe u for the drinks! <file:///C:/BBFC/game1/clipart/happy.gif> Fruitbat Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 10:43 am [Click here to edit this post] Karuuna...I absolutely understand what you say. Just making the point that some immediately associate the word prayer with organized religion. Just clairifying. I was attempting to head off a common misconception. There can be a hair trigger response when treading the waters of the unknown. [ ] Katie Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 10:53 am [Click here to edit this post] Yes T or D often moves to chat because it is easier. That is where the dare for Laf was too. Ocean_Islands Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 10:55 am [Click here to edit this post] Well bless my biscuits this thread is showing remarkable life! I don't think too many people would be confusing prayer with organized religion. I'm not sure that prayer wheels really count as praying, and prayer beads don't, either. These items are supposedly "representative" of prayers that are not actually made. Elitist Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 10:55 am [Click here to edit this post] Well I have a few more stories to tell, and I think they have a point. And maybe then we can get Karuuna's essay - and from where we have gone in this thread tying it into synchronicity may not be entirely necessary. Here is my first story - My Close Encounter With A UFO. My buddy and I had driven down from the University to Houston for a Doobie Brothers concert (OK this was around 1980) and decided to drive the 100 or so miles back afterwards. It was about midnight, we had the top down, probably had a few Heinikens in the car (dark only please - and at that time this was legal in Texas - go figure) and were, for some unknown reason, smoking Swisher Sweets cigars. Since I had grown up in the area we were taking the back roads, and when I say back roads, there was no-one else on the road and almost no lights in the countryside to designate farmhouses. I am sure we had been talking about UFOs - mainly because my bud claims to have seen one or two in his (at that time) short life. Well I glance out the passenger window and notice a small disc-shaped object pulsing a dark red in the field to our right. I nudge my buddy and say "What the he%% is that?" upon we both say "UFO!". Of course we were kidding but we had no idea what it was. He was driving about 70 to 80 miles an hour, and we noticed the disc keeping up with us. And we could tell it was getting closer because it was getting bigger and bigger. And it must have been using more energy or something because the deep red glow had brightened to a fiery orange. My friend was a photography buff and had his camera and wanted to stop. I told him he was crazy, don't stop now. But he did anyway and took some photos, hoping there was enough light from the craft to make a good exposure. The really spooky thing is the disc stopped when we did, then when we jumped back in the car and took off (at high speeds) it was back following us. Total elasped time was probably 10-15 minutes. I took one last look out the window, then looked at my buddy and said "You know we are total idiots - look again and you will see that is the moon". Yes boys and girls, we had let our predisposition to UFOs from our discussions color our thoughts enough that we mistook the rising moon for a UFO. Hey, we even have pictures to prove it! The point? It doesn't take much for our minds to fool us into believing something that is not real. |
Whit4you | Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 12:26 am   Ocean_Islands Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 10:57 am [Click here to edit this post] I think the point is that you were smashed silly drunk! Karuuna Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 11:05 am [Click here to edit this post] I'm off to lunch, but just a few quick notes: Ocean, I disagree that wheels and beads are not praying -- in fact, the words that go with them are prayers to the universe, generally to heal suffering. They are repetitive, petitionary and intercessory, so that fits my definition of prayer. Maybe you define it differently? Elitist -- are you a hard core materialist? (in terms of explanatory theories, not in acquiring stuff, but you can answer both if you like!) <file:///C:/BBFC/game1/clipart/updown.gif> Elitist Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 11:06 am [Click here to edit this post] No, I have been smashed silly drunk and definitely know the difference. We weren't really impaired at all. And I have never done any type of drug, so it wasn't a bit of the funny weed or a tab of something slipped into my RC Cola. It was pretty much the power of suggestion due to our conversation and a timely rise of a very red moon (the one in the sky). Ocean_Islands Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 11:08 am [Click here to edit this post] prayer Pronunciation: 'prar, 'prer Function: noun Usage: often attributive Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French preiere, from Medieval Latin precaria, from Latin, feminine of precarius obtained by entreaty, from prec-, prex Date: 14th century 1 a (1) : an address (as a petition) to God or a god in word or thought <said a prayer for the success of the voyage> (2) : a set order of words used in praying b : an earnest request or wish 2 : the act or practice of praying to God or a god <kneeling in prayer> 3 : a religious service consisting chiefly of prayers -- often used in plural 4 : something prayed for 5 : a slight chance <haven't got a prayer> Elitist Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 11:24 am [Click here to edit this post] Karuuna, I don't think so - of course it depends on which face you are talking to. I am a true Gemini. One of the reasons I brought up the left/right brain thing earlier is that I took those tests to find out which one predominates and whether you perceive things visually or auditorially. I am smack dab in the center, totally balanced as to left/right, sight/hearing. Makes for an interesting combination. I think one thing it does is allow me to totally believe two completely contradictory things. Thus I totally believe in God, UFOs, ESP, spirits, and also totally reject them. It is a fun life. I was also raised in an extremely conservative religious environment and an environment that stressed education and learning. These dualities persisted throughout my education, always focusing on science on one hand and religion on the other, to the point that I attended a church affiliated university (a Christian university if you will). Graduate school, however, pretty much ruined me. I believe the spiritual side of a person is just as important as the intellectual, emotional, and physical side, and that to be a whole human you must address and grow all sides. But being so engrossed in religion most of my life, I have seen too much chicanery to accept everything I see when it comes to religion and what people profess on the spiritual side (I guess that is true for the intellectual, emotional, and physical sides too). So I guess the answer to your question is yes and no. Now I have spilled my heart out. <file:///C:/BBFC/game1/clipart/redheart.gif> Whit4you Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 11:36 am [Click here to edit this post] I'd like to join this thread but first a disclaimer: ----------- Anything I say here is just my thoughts, I don't even have a highschool diploma - so I'm not pretending to know more then *anyone* else in this thread. That being said I'd like to at least give my take on some of these posts. end disclaimer [ ] -------------- First on the question, that I didn't see answered here "Does anything beyond coincidence exsist?" I have to say most definately, and one example would be the human brain. My brain can not concieve of an infinite number of coincidences happening to create the human brain. (next on coincidence) Every second trillions of combinations of things are happening, that have never happened before. Anything our brain can concieve of happening could just as easily happen tommorrow, as it could 5 trillion years FROM now. Trying to prove something exsists - that we have not yet found an explination for, does not mean it does not exsist. It just means WE have not found an explination for it, or scientific evidence of it. The problem I think is we as a society (and perhaps all societies before us?) believe we NOW have the tools to clearly understand the things around us. We are now using an insignificant fraction of our brains, with no measurable increase in capacity as there was 200 years ago. We doubt that Synchronicity exsists because we can't concieve of it being anything more then coincidence and have no proof otherwise. It's really no different then people concieving 200 years ago about getting across the ocean in just a few hours. Or being able to "talk" to someone 200 miles away. You'll say - but those events happened because of simple scientifically explained pre-exsisting things (such as elercity) - but your fooling yourself if you think we've even found a fraction of pre-exsisting things. We've really just begun. (making this post short, but I have a million things to say LOL) Ocean_Islands Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 11:38 am [Click here to edit this post] Thanks for telling us all that history -- but it's not your heart! Your history can only define you if you let it. Some of our greatest thinkers have traced the fallacy of body/mind duality to the studies of St. Augustine in the Dark Ages, and beyond that to some Greek philosophies encompassing the ideal as explored in Platonic writings. There also exists the Chinese yin/yang Tao te Ching philosophy of wholeness/duality. Mind could be split in two but it is a fact that it is all part of an indivisible whole. The two halves aspect of it is an illusion. Adven39 Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 11:42 am [Click here to edit this post] Whit, this is one thread where length isn't as much of an issue. We've all gotten a little wordy at one time or another in this one. Fire away. Wink Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 11:47 am [Click here to edit this post] Half of my mind wants to stay here and absorb all this but the other half is screaming to get the hell out of this thread. Unfortunately most of this dicussion is way over both my heads!!! Elitist Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 11:48 am [Click here to edit this post] Ocean - I think you lost me on that one. There is the yin and yang and all that, and it is an indivisible whole (unless you cut the connection between the two halves). My point was that in most people one side of the brain or the other dominate their thinking or how they think (I believe this is a well accepted fact, tell me if I am wrong). In mine there is no domination, so I am a lot more confused than most people. And also my heart tells me two things - I believe it - NO WAIT I don't - Yes you do - Shut up its my turn... Ocean_Islands Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 12:04 pm [Click here to edit this post] I'm a true Gemini also so I know how you feel. Part of that 'chicanery' you mention is prayer wheels. These are an organised religion constructions which tells those believers that each time the prayer wheel (which is a turning construction like a top or a spinning cylinder) spins, the prayers are being said. But prayer is a word or a thought, according to the definition posted above. Anyway. Let's all hope there are more meaningful coincidences in our lives and we will know how to interpret them when they occur. I think Eli, that the challenge for someone like you is to take a permanent stance instead of flitting from one to the next and risk being accused of mercurial fluidity as so many Geminis are. Whit4you Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 12:07 pm [Click here to edit this post] I think another example - of something that exsists that we have yet to fully understand or explain would be "instinct" - Take ants for example and how something with a brain smaller thn this dot -> . <-- appears to *understand* things. Instinct. It does exsist. Just as Instinct exsists so might syncrhonicity. There is a point where coincidence becomes to much of a coincidence to TRUELY be a coincidence - and in one example becomes Instinct. The thousands/millions of things an ant/ knows and understands are not a coincidence. Instinct is one of those things that can not be explained do to coincidence. And just as we can not explain Instinct yet it exsists, the same may hold true for Syncronicity. (I hope someone here grasps what I am saying hard to say the thousand thoughts in my mind in 1000 words or less hehe ) Elitist Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 12:26 pm [Click here to edit this post] I finally tracked down some info on the prayer study. Of course it is a critical essay on the study and Larry Dossey's use of it as the cornerstone of his teachings. http://www.hcrc.org/contrib/posner/byrd.html As I read it (discounting the somewhat picky point the guy makes about how much unknown prayer was going on) the study isn't that earth shaking. Apparently there was some statistically significant difference in the control and test group in 6 areas out of 29. There is some question whether these 6 areas were independent of each other (in other words if one changed the others always would also). It is also interesting to note that there was no difference between the groups in mortality or time within the hospital. And finally, this study is not the first of its type. Apparently 3 previous studies pretty much said there was no difference in groups that were prayed for or not. Oh yeah, and this was a strictly Christian study, so all you other religions are pretty much out of luck (sorry, couldn't resist). So unless there are more studies like this that validate the results (or hopefully show better results) I remain unconvinced. Elitist Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 12:29 pm [Click here to edit this post] Whit - Use more than a 1,000 words, I do. <file:///C:/BBFC/game1/clipart/smirk.gif> Karuuna Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 12:51 pm [Click here to edit this post] Well, I take a run and have some lunch, and find that you've all been in here running away as well! And nary a post on any other thread? Hmmmm... At any rate, thanks for the definitions, Ocean. I was a Buddhist for some time, perhaps mostly as as a rebellion against a rather hypocritical Christian upbringing -- nevertheless I did learn a few things from it! Sects of Buddhism differ at least as much and perhaps more than all the various permutations of Christianity, and the teachings I followed stressed prayer as words/thoughts in the form of repetitive sets of words. Those who used prayer wheels, used them as a reminder to silently repeat a particular prayer. I have to admit in practice they used it as sort of a shorthand to bring the prayer to mind again. Whether they repeated each word slowly and thoughtfully I can't say. Reminds me of just how fast I could say the little ditty we said at mealtimes to ask for blessing on our food when I was growing up! At any rate, I think you're being a tad unfair by characterizing them dismissively as chicanery. I think it depends on how you use it, as some kind of magical talisman or as a symbol for bringing you back to mindfulness and compassion for all those who suffer. IMHO. Wcv63 Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 12:52 pm [Click here to edit this post] Speed bump. Ocean_Islands Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 12:58 pm [Click here to edit this post] Yes Ka I agree, chicanery is in your approach, just like the stations of the cross can be an opportunity for prayer and veneration or a millstone around your neck that will send you to hell if you don't perform them. Karuuna Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 01:01 pm [Click here to edit this post] Elitist - thanks for your response, and what a nice heart you've shared! <file:///C:/BBFC/game1/clipart/happy.gif> In a way, I can identify with your mind-split. I totally rejected all forms of spirituality for a great part of my life. I followed science to the exclusion of all else, and if something couldn't be proven to me, I rejected it. Then I had one of those life-altering experiences (synchronistic? coincidence? divine intervention? hallucination?) that wasn't so easily explained scientifically. It was my quest to understand that that led me to studying philosophy, world faith traditions as well as science, both in concert and as opposed to each other. I confess the part of me that *wants* everything to be nice and neat is hoping to find a way to integrate the two. So after studying the two disciplines as almost completely distinct from each, I've been looking more at those thinkers that have "interesting" ways of combining the two -- The Tao of Physics, etc. The best I can say is that I've become a more balanced person, if a less fully integrated one! Karuuna Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 01:25 pm [Click here to edit this post] <<With that type of background you have to give us a good long post on looking at synchronicity, prayer, spirits, deja vu, etc. from the point of view that they are not so much physical phenomena as they are the mysterious workings of the human brain. >> Elitist, you are making me work! <file:///C:/BBFC/game1/clipart/updown.gif> Actually, I love this stuff, I'm just not sure I'm as smart as I used to be. I do love reading about it and contemplating these things! I don't think I'll make this long tho, I'll just throw some stuff out there, and generate some discussion, I hope! To be honest, I go back and forth on this question. Synchronicity? Prayer? Spirits? Angels? Are they real? Or are they just attempts by insecure humans to make meaning out of their lives? Ask me one day and I'll swear they're real (at least some of them), ask me another and I'll say "bunk", prove it to me! Mostly I think people don't make meaning for their lives, they make meaningless. What I mean by that is they don't look critically at what they think and what they know. For the most part I don't think they even distinguish between "thinking" something and "knowing" something. That sounds like a particularly negative view of humankind, but I don't mean it with any harsh judgment, I just mean it to say that most folks are content with that level of examination of life. They don't question or challenge what they think/know, to them it's all the same. I think it, I know it, and that's all I need. In many ways, I envy that position! I'll roll these things around in my mind for hours, never knowing what I "know" for sure, and what's just my opinion! But in more in line of your comment above, I think there are darn good scientific explanations for much of what we think is more appropriately attributed to soul or spirit. I even read recently that how spiritual you are is related to a particular area of the brain and its size and activity level relevant to other like areas. There wasn't enough in the study to determine whether that was a genetic predisposition or whether that was a result of environment/behavior. But I found it pretty fascinating! Of course that very question (is it genes or is it environment) is pretty silly in itself -- it asks an either/or question of something that's better understood as a continuum, and an interaction. Ultimately, I think there's still so much we don't know, to come down harshly on one side or the other -- it's all brain or it's all soul/spirit. My best guess is that like the genes/environment question, brain and spirit exist on some kind of interactive, changing continuum as well. Ultimately, for ME, it comes down to how you choose to live your life. That is assuming we really have choice and we're not all just some biological machines living out whatever it is that our genes interacting with our habitat determine us to be! (See how I can play both sides of this? Is Dr Dude around?) For me, believing that I have choice, and believing spirit/soul/something exists calls me to be a better person. Not out of some fear of hell or retribution, but some belief that somehow it all matters. I live my life *as if* synchronicity exists, because it forces me to be more consciously aware of the things that are happening in my life, and therefore forces me to continuely examine my life, and hopefully to grow thru that process. Did I say I was going to make this short? LOL! Karuuna Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 01:27 pm [Click here to edit this post] WCV -- u better thru another speed bump in there to slow me down. Wait? Didn't I extract a promise from you to drag my sorry butt out of here if I showed up again? <file:///C:/BBFC/game1/clipart/crazy.gif> Wcv63 Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 02:33 pm [Click here to edit this post] Ahh that you did Karuuna...thought the speed bump would remind you that you were playing on the freeway! Wcv63 Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 03:18 pm [Click here to edit this post] <Venturing out into traffic....looking both ways> I think what it all boils down to is faith vs science. If you have faith in God, religion, angels etc., then you don't have to have anything proven and it gives people a higher power to lean on. My father, God Bless him, is an atheist. He is scientifically driven in every aspect of his life. If it doesn't have a scientific explanation then he believes it to be a load of crap (his words). I don't argue with him (what's the point?) but I believe that God has touched my life in many ways. I can't prove it. But neither can I (or anyone else for that matter) disprove it. <Ut oh, truck coming....better get out of the way!> Elitist Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 03:18 pm [Click here to edit this post] As promised, more stories. Karuuna you ought to really like this one. Second Story - Hallucinators I Have Known Probably one of the most stable people I ever knew was my uncle. A farmer and accountant, he had his feet solidly planted on the ground. But he also was a heavy smoker and had heart trouble and was in the hospital on and off his latter years. After one of these hospital stays, he told me of his fun time in the hospital on a medication with hallucinatory side effect. One that sticks in my mind is the little man that kept sitting on top of his TV and talking to him. The other is when he was sitting in bed and the walls disappeared and he had no idea what was happening. All the rooms furniture and equipment was there, there just weren't any walls. The interesting thing was that to him all of this was totally real, even after he was off the medication and was at home (our discussion was several months after his hospital stay). Then there was my nephew who grew up seeing things that weren't there. He kept this hidden from everybody until his late teens, whereupon he went on medication. But apparently he used to see people (alive and dead) and animals and other things that no one else did. None of the apparitions were threatening or anything and it hasn't seem to have affected his development or personality any. But what he saw he believed and accepted as part of his world. The Point: the brain is a very complex system that can easily stretch reality. The instances I have stated are somewhat extreme with dramatic results. But how much of our experience is due to the small pertubations of our brain chemistry altering reality? And how easy is it for our brain to fool us into thinking we have seen, heard, felt, smelled, tasted something that doesn't exist? Elitist Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 03:20 pm [Click here to edit this post] Wcv - I have to say it again - you can't prove a negative (your can't disprove it either statement). But just because you can't disprove it doesn't mean it is real either. Wcv63 Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 03:21 pm [Click here to edit this post] Elitist - I have faith that it is. |
Whit4you | Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 12:27 am   Karuuna Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 03:48 pm [Click here to edit this post] Er, Elitist, are you implying that I have been hallucinating? That this thread, and <gasp> even you, are a figment of my imagination?! hehehe I agree that there are many things that are explainable via brain chemistry. So now for you Elitist, one to add to your file... When I was working on my masters (which i did not complete), I did an internship in a hospital in Denver that specializes in treating brain-injured patients. We had one woman who had been infected with a rare, short-term viral infection in her cerebral cortex. Apparently this particular part of her brain was the part responsible for allowing her to recognize her left leg as her own. After the infection was gone, the woman still could not "recognize" her left leg. She would complain about someone else's leg being in bed with her, and become severely agitated. You could poke that leg, and she would say she felt pain. You could instruct her to move the toes, foot, bend the knee of that leg, and she could. You could ask her to walk on it, hop on it, and she could. You could point out to her that it was the mirror image of her right leg, and that it was attached to her at the hip. But in spite of all those exercises, she continued to insist that the leg was not her own. No amount of logic or example of how she could use it and feel it could convince her that the leg belonged to her. That's a pretty strong argument for brain determinism. Our brain can not only stretch reality, but it can limit it as well. Karuuna Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 03:50 pm [Click here to edit this post] Wcv - skip the speed bumps. Get a large virtual gun and shoot out my virtual tires! <file:///C:/BBFC/game1/clipart/blah.gif> Elitist Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 03:50 pm [Click here to edit this post] Wcv - Good for you. Can't fault that. And don't get me wrong in all of this. I have the utmost respect for people who have a strong faith in their God or other beliefs. It is that type of faith that changed the world in the past, and probably will in the future. But even faith is based on some sort of knowledge/learning. The Christian faith is based on the New Testament. But what would happen if it was proven that there was no historical Jesus, that the books of the New Testament were written by a bunch of rebels that were bent on overthrowing the Roman Empire, and that most of the Christ story was just revamped pagan mythology made more palatable for the masses? Would you be able to still have that type of faith? (Not that I am saying any of this is true). As you said, your faith is based on the acts of God in your life, and that is a nice, strong base. I hope you are able to keep it through your life during the good times as well as through the troubled times. Ocean_Islands Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 03:53 pm [Click here to edit this post] But hold on just a minute folks! These documented cases of Synchronicity have nothing to do with brain perceptions. That's something totally different. Karuuna Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 03:59 pm [Click here to edit this post] wcv - I have faith, for my own reasons, mostly unproven and some "loosely" proven to my satisfaction. Right or wrong, true or false, I believe. i still have this yearning to somehow "prove" it though. Must be that incessant Virgo need to be right! <file:///C:/BBFC/game1/clipart/wink.gif> And leave it to Ocean to try and bring us back on topic. Good job! This is a complex subject tho, and I think the loose connection is the question about whether Synchronicity actually exists, or if it is manufactured by the human craving for meaning. Ocean_Islands Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 04:17 pm [Click here to edit this post] That's very well said Karuuna. To satisfy the human yearnings for meaning -- roots of spirituality. Are you familiar with Jung's synchonicity theory and how it relates to the collective unconscious? There is also a link to Hinduism and Buddhism -- that we choose our own destiny. Using this link to interpret the first story I told, about the Nova Scotia writer and his coffin returning home for burial, Indian religions would say that the man chose to die on a seacoast, in an area frequented by hurricanes. He died in the care of people who would bury him in a cemetery by the sea; in a part of the Gulf coast that would be subject to prevailing currents connecting to the jet stream, and the jet stream goes right up to Nova Scotia from the entrance to the Gulf of Mexico. He chose it all in advance. Wcv63 Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 04:21 pm [Click here to edit this post] <He chose it all in advance.> Or it's just one big coincidence!! HA!! Let the debate begin again! Karuuna Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 04:33 pm [Click here to edit this post] Thanks, Ocean. My Jung's pretty rusty, but I have some pretty good books on him here, I'll brush up a little later, and let you know what I think. I do know pretty well his theory about collective unconscious, and I can guess how that might support synchronicity -- but it would be my guess, not what Jung said. I honestly have to admit, I have some trouble with the whole "somehow I subconsciously knew that if I did this, that would happen" stuff. However, I will allow that this may just be personal emotional resistance to the people that take it so far as to say that we chose our parents and the particular situation that we were born into. If that is the case, then I'm going to have some serious explaining to do to myself someday! (Does that sound as insane as I think it does?!) Setting that particular idiosyncracy aside, I will allow that I do believe we often do things subconsciously, in fact I think we do most things out of mere "habit" versus chosen behavior. I don't know that I buy that we subconsciously *choose* since to me the act of choosing is a conscious one. The only way that could be true, is if there is some other part of ourselves that knows more than we know that in fact is doing the choosing. I'm familiar with that belief system, I just don't think it's as well supported as other belief systems. Vasix Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 04:59 pm [Click here to edit this post] Cover me WCV, I'm going in: Awareness (Perception) and thought (Cognition) are two different states. Choice is not a state but a perception of an active change of state and/or the illusion of voluntary selection between states. Therefore: So Kar you simply have to decide: of Perception, Cognition and Awareness which of the three are necessary and/or sufficient to prove or disprove the existence of synchronicity? Of course, be aware that after all your thinking you will: choose to believe and perceive you have a choice. thought/awareness/choice: only two are states, one is an illusion. Your "decisions" are your belief system. The strength of your beliefs are bounded by your perceptions enforced by your thoughts on the existence of choice. I'm aware of my belief that given a certainty or an uncertainty, I think I'll choose the chocolate chip cookie. Ocean_Islands Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 05:04 pm [Click here to edit this post] Actually, the whole Hindu thing is just that: choosing your parents. You choose the life you have with its particular difficulties. We choose the difficulties we need in order to grow. Ocean_Islands Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 05:10 pm [Click here to edit this post] Actually, WCV, we are not beginning the debate again: We have not yet explored the pre-destination of life which is at the base of the collective unconscious and synchronicity itself. Synchronicity is a mere 'trick' -- an accidental revelation of mechanisms operating beneath this world of pain and fleshly desire known as samsara. It is a level that we can only imagine, as it is invisible to us. But just as Newton knew there was a force which made the apple fall from the tree and it only took someone to describe and understand it, there is a force which operates beneath all reality and causes -- indirectly or directly -- these strange things to happen. Vasix Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 05:32 pm [Click here to edit this post] Okay, just one tiny off message post (actually it only appears to be off message). A friend and I were standing in a new building looking out at a courtyard filled with trees that obviously were "saved" during contruction. These trees of the land's original forrest were very tall, straight trunked and were swaying in the storm that had dumped 14 inches of snow in the previous six hours. As the winds increased the trees seem to stir the the storm's frenzy. Transfixed by the spectacle, we watched as one of the swaying mammoths fell to the ground without a noise. It simply fell as if shot. My friend turned to me, and breaking the silence said, "Are we here?" Karuuna Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 06:11 pm [Click here to edit this post] Okay, Vaxie, you lost me! Perception and cognition are different states in what way? I suppose you could perceive something subconsciously and react, ie, I perceive that there's a fly on my arm and I attempt to swat it off without ever having a clear cognition about it. But did I *choose* to brush off the fly? For me, choice is about thinking, hey, there's a fly on my arm, do I want to kill it, what are the karmic consequences of killing it and where's that darn cat when I need him? Then I make a choice to tolerate the fly, swat at the fly, or call the cat, or whatever. I'm being silly, but you get the idea. I'm used to awareness being used in a different way -- and perception being used as a property of the five commonly defined senses. Awareness to me is more than perception -- awareness is closer to the thought process that leads to making a choice. I cognize (how's that for a word) about all that's going on, all my options for behavior and the possible consequences, and that equals full awareness. As for illusion, are we back on that pretend thread? I'm starting to think this whole board is one big illusion. I think that most thoughts are illusion (for the most part), but total awareness as I described it is less of an illusion, but still partly illusory since it comes so encumbered with our preconceptions and biases. Now if you can tell me what I just said, and explain it so I can understand it, I'll give you chocolate chip cookies, AND I'll figure out how all this effects my perception and awareness of synchronicity! Whit4you Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 06:15 pm [Click here to edit this post] Well I think Syncronicity is just a word to define an event or series of events that APPEAR to be coincidence because of our limited understanding. Karuuna Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 06:16 pm [Click here to edit this post] Ocean -- yeah, that would be the whole reincarnation route, but the skeptic in me just won't go there, at least not yet. The first step toward proving that, would be proof that there is in fact, a distinct and unique part of ourselves that exists separately from our physical bodies. I'm not always entirely convinced of that, altho due to personal experiences (or hallucinations?), I'm relatively certain that's true. But then there's a huge leap toward believing that soul/spirit/essence whatever inhabits body after body after body in order to learn specific lessons before moving on to the next. In some ways, I'd *like* that to be true, in other ways, I think of some of the things I've done in this life, and I'm not looking forward to the karmic consequences! Karuuna Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 06:17 pm [Click here to edit this post] Vasix - we're virtually here. Neener neener! <file:///C:/BBFC/game1/clipart/blah.gif> Vasix Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 06:22 pm [Click here to edit this post] Kar Its not that I can't fold up maps, its what was I thinking when I unfolded them? I don't know what you said, but if you can fold it back up, lets put it in the glove box. Which is where,oddly enough, we never think to put our gloves. Vasix Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 06:38 pm [Click here to edit this post] And I can't wait to see where the re-incarnation thread takes us. I've spent lifetimes thinking about re-incarnation. Karuuna Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 07:57 pm [Click here to edit this post] Vasix -- hey was it the speed or the size of those 18-wheelers that scared you off? I'd put in the glove box but I need a few extra hands to refold it, and then I'd have to remove the owners manual and assorted papers. Those glove boxes have gotten a lot smaller since the advent of airbags. And I refuse to have anyone "read" my past lives. Everyone I know that has ever had it done has been a king or a princess or rich or famous in one way or another. Just my luck I'd come out to be a street sweeper, and then I'd have past life envy, not to be confused with apple tree envy which I already suffer from. Call the arborist! Sandyc Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 08:53 pm [Click here to edit this post] 'It is a level that we can only imagine, as it is invisible to us.' -- Just as thought waves are invisible. To use the word "trick" implies a joke. Mechanisms operating underneath our fleshy, cognant reality are our subconscious and our unconscious. Are you saying we are playing tricks on ourselves and those we are connected to. Or that 'something' is playing tricks on us. This can lead to paranoia on a grand scale. Some perception is conscious and some is not. Awareness is what our perception gets us. Cognition is consciously making up our mind that we understand what we are aware of. We can have instant karma. We don't have to be born again to grow. As someone else said, the mere fact that our brains are as they are is synchronistic in itself. Until we fully realize (there's a good word for you - make real) the potential. What does pre-destination of life mean? Our purpose in life? Do we have to have a purpose, a reason to be given life? Are we supposed to do or be something in particular? Isn't that kind of having our attention on ourselves and thereby limiting our awareness of the whole? Belief. We believe therefore it is. We don't all believe therefore it isn't,(yet). Elitist Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 09:51 pm [Click here to edit this post] Sandy - I think the tricks are really (as said before) our minds trying to place meaning where there may not be any. Thus coincidences become synchronicity. Of course the converse is true - the mind can refuse to accept meaning where there is. Elitist Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 09:58 pm [Click here to edit this post] Well I think part of the debate keeps coming back to this question: Is there a collective mind that all humans are a part of that we only dimly perceive, and that affects all of our lives, that shows up as phenomena such as synchronicity, spirits, esp, etc. Or is each person a unique and isolated ball of gray matter that has no connection outside of itself except through the machinations of the flesh? I think most people would want to believe in the first to some degree. Now there have been some hints in this thread, but I will ask the question - are any of you enlightened beings that have a higher perception of this universal mind? And if so spill. Elitist Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 10:04 pm [Click here to edit this post] And before I go to bed lets get really esoteric. If there is truly a univeral mind, then why not let it explain everything. It should know everything that anyone knows, so it should be close to omniscient and omnipresent. I believe it has been said it is not mitigated by distance. But to fully explain all phenomena, it should probably also not be limited by death. And since it is not subject to normal laws of distance, should it also not be subject to time? Is not synchronicity simply the grand unconscious dipping forward and backward in time to determine the best probable path? Good night. Misslibra Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 10:19 pm [Click here to edit this post] Do I believe in synchronicity ? How can you not believe in it ? That is the question ! [ ] Yes I'm a believer. Wcv63 Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 10:20 pm [Click here to edit this post] I have a headache. My brain is having spasms. I hope you're all happy |
Whit4you | Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 12:29 am   andyc Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 10:41 pm [Click here to edit this post] How can we all be 'a unique and isolated ball of gray matter that has no connection outside of itself' when the very space between us joins us? Does not air carry energy waves? 'Tis the receptors that are damaged or shut off. And does that omnipresent knowing exist beyond death if no thing is alive to be aware of it (going back to that wonderful tree falling soundlessly). I, in my simple way, really do believe in synchronicity (if that's what we want to call it). Okay, that's enough from me for awhile. It sure is nice to get away from selling Chinese food. Noslonna Thursday, October 26, 2000 - 11:07 pm [Click here to edit this post] ummm... I fell in this holy hell purely by coincedence <sp?> I just call it coinky dink cause I can never figure out how to spell it. I stand by my original theory... if life's amazing concurrent events are really just Synchronicity, then eventually the pattern will bore us to tears. Random acts and non-sense are much more interesting. Now get me outta this scary place. signed... another small bump, in the major intellectual pot-heads, pot-holes, pot-moles... whoever you linda blair type people are. Stop that head rotation! Vasix Friday, October 27, 2000 - 05:59 am [Click here to edit this post] Kar: Twas neither size nor speed that scared me off. I just was having too much fun watching the minds cavort like sea lions in the surf. And scarily you were making most my points anyways so I let you play in traffic while I ate my ice cream cone on the side of the off ramp wondering if I lost my right thumb would I ever be able to hitchhike again.. Adven39 Friday, October 27, 2000 - 06:08 am [Click here to edit this post] If this thread keeps going much longer, one of us monkeys is going to end up writing Hamlet. Twiggyish Friday, October 27, 2000 - 06:12 am [Click here to edit this post] I believe people explain some events as supernatural, which otherwise can be explained logically. Years ago, I was watching a special on the Bermuda Triangle. There was one particular event where 3 men were in a small boat (off Ft. Lauderdale beach) on the 4th of July. They were watching fireworks, when suddenly the water turned a strange glowing green color. Because one of the men was a priest, this event was classified as supernatural. There is a natural occurring algae, which does give off a greenish glow. (Bioluminescence) The whole incident had nothing to do with the Bermuda Triangle. http://edie.cprost.sfu.ca/~rhlogan/frye.html This doesn't mean there aren't unexplainables (for lack of a better word) in this world, such as synchronicity, etc. It is perhaps because we (humans) haven't all the answers. Vasix Friday, October 27, 2000 - 06:23 am [Click here to edit this post] okay first, what the heck is a priest doing out in a boat anyways? And second, my monkey wants to know if you want it double spaced or not. Adven39 Friday, October 27, 2000 - 06:25 am [Click here to edit this post] Single-spaced and see if the chimp can jazz up the "to be or not to be" soliliquy this time. Affinity Friday, October 27, 2000 - 07:07 am [Click here to edit this post] I am wondering how many people can pronounce "synchronicity" the correct way Vasix Friday, October 27, 2000 - 07:19 am [Click here to edit this post] I can't even pronounce half the screennames! And I love the line, "for what dreams must come when we shuffle off this mortal coil" (at least that is the way I carry the quote in my monkey brain). Twiggyish Friday, October 27, 2000 - 07:25 am [Click here to edit this post] So you aren't answering my post because I am not a scientist. I see some snobbery here. Twiggyish Friday, October 27, 2000 - 08:03 am [Click here to edit this post] Please excuse above post. I am in an aggravated mood right now (related to work). Karuuna Friday, October 27, 2000 - 08:34 am [Click here to edit this post] Wcv -- that your brain is having spasms is a good thing. It's when it totally shuts down, like mine, that you need to worry. At least it doesn't hurt any more. Elitist, I'm glad you went to bed. <file:///C:/BBFC/game1/clipart/angel.gif> Of course, the answer is to your question is that something that explains everything is no explanation at all. Universally. I did meet a man recently who claimed to be enlightened. Unfortunately, I'm not enlightened enough to know if he was telling the truth. He does have a nice kind of cultish thing going in Boulder. On the other hand, he is extremely intelligent, and uncannily intuitive. Luckily he seems to use that mostly for good, and while he does claim to be able to lead others to enlightenment (from the looks of his disciples, he's got his work cut out for him!), he doesn't seem to charging an exorbitant amount for it. So there you have it, enlightenment can be bought for a reasonable price, you just have to go to Boulder. For Vaxie's benefit: Karu'una (Kah-roo'-oo-nah), from the Sanskrit, meaning compassionate action. And you have a lot of nerve complaining about how difficult some screen names are to pronounce! Elitist Friday, October 27, 2000 - 08:42 am [Click here to edit this post] OK Twig, I will answer even though you aren't a scientist. I think a lot depends on the green glow the priests described. I think I saw the same show, and the way they depicted it was that it was a constant green light that lit up all of the water. Now I have seen the algae that you spoke about. It is pretty weird. We were camping out on the beach of the Gulf when my cousin brought a pail of water into the tent at night and started washing his hands. We were pretty astonished that whenever he moved his hands the water would glow. We all went out to the water line and you could see all the breakers glowing with the same glow. So we had to take a swim, and whenever you moved, the glow would appear. Pretty neat. I have seen this at least on one other occasion. Now the depiction I saw on TV didn't really fit this type of behavior. Either they embellished the truth (and would television do that?), it was a different type of algae that glowed all the time, something was agitating the water enough to create the glow, or it was something else. Karuuna Friday, October 27, 2000 - 09:01 am [Click here to edit this post] Eli -- now here you are again! And I was hoping we could distract you long enough over on those other threads so that we could let our unique and isolated balls of grey matter run away with the thread without having to verify our assumptions and cross our i's and dot our t's as well. (huh?) But since you're back... I did look at the critical article you posted yesterday. The author has some valid points, but I think there's some wiggle room, and give me some room and I'll be happy to wiggle! He objects that there was no control for prayer outside of the study, that is there was no way of telling how much outside praying was being done for each of the patients. Fair enough in a sense, however, he doesn't mention that such an experiment would never pass an ethical review board. Can you imagine calling folks and saying, "hey, we know your loved one is in coronary care and could die, but for the sake of furthering science, would you mind not praying for him/her?" Not gonna happen. I would have found his criticism more valid if he had voluntarily offered the limitations involved. By not acknowledging the impossibility, he implies that the experimenter's neglect of this matter was either a great oversight, or intentional. He also mentions that there were three other studies done previously that did not have the same results. Okay, but given that the first one was done in 1872, do we really think that's comparable? At the average of one study every 30 years or so in this area, I think at the very least we could say more study could be done. <file:///C:/BBFC/game1/clipart/updown.gif> I will say that the results of the experiment are less than stellar, and I'm not too happy about the leap that says because prayer worked, God exists. Seems to me there are a few steps in between those two positions. I do think because there was some clear statistically reliable difference in some of the parameters measured, the thing deserves another look. Of course, we'll have to wait another 30 years for the next experiment... Elitist Friday, October 27, 2000 - 09:23 am [Click here to edit this post] K - I totally agree about the "who else was praying for these people". I think I pointed out in my rebuttal that it was pretty picky. And yeah, I agree a few more studies should be done to see if there is anything there. I guess what bothers me is (like your enlightened friend in Colorado) is that someone takes something like this then makes a bundle off of it selling books and seminars, just because, as you said, most people except it "without having to verify our assumptions and cross our i's and dot our t's as well". (I know, I am a real pain in the ass, aren't I) Twig - I did go and read your link. The algae (actually I think it was something else - dinoflagellates - aren't they more animal?) behavior he described was pretty much what I remember, except that I distinctly recall movement being required before they luminesced, whereas he implies they do it spontaneously. Wcv - my brain is spasming also, but luckily I have a spare (Ocean, I couldn't resist). Wcv63 Friday, October 27, 2000 - 09:27 am [Click here to edit this post] Coincidence is nothing more than how we make connections between certain events. This could very well be mind gyrations. Faith is a different matter all together and doesn't rely on coincidence or syncronicity to exist. One of the premises of prayer is that you can pray for anything. Sometimes the answer is no. If you notice all 12 step programs are based on a belief in a higher power. As a matter of fact it's one of the very first steps. My penchant for playing in traffic is starting to concern me. I've never thought of myself as a risk taker or a dare devil. Yet here I am gleefully skipping across the freeway dodging semis and speeding cars. Karuuna Friday, October 27, 2000 - 09:40 am [Click here to edit this post] Eli-- I sort of agree with you about the making a bundle part, but I have to say that with the caveat that I'm making a very small "bundle" on the internet, and altho I'm not selling unverified conclusions that inspire hope, I am selling sentimentality to a certain degree. To ease my guilty conscious I donate a fair amount of it to charity. However, I'm not completely convinced that selling hope is such a bad thing. Fossey's book focuses *primarily* on the power of self-prayer/meditation, and it's decidedly non-denominational. My estimate is less than 10% of it focuses on the intercessionary-without-patient-knowledge kind of prayer. I think we can agree that praying for oneself does work, even if it's only placebic. Also, I don't know how much money is too much and when it becomes an ethical dilemma. I have my own perverse mental struggle with that... And lastly I don't think you're a pain in the (ahem!) at all, altho you do cause a few of us more than the ordinary amount of brain pain. I think that's a good thing, and so does Tylenol. Elitist Friday, October 27, 2000 - 09:55 am [Click here to edit this post] SandyC - Just my picky little self having to make you cross your i's and dot your t's. <file:///C:/BBFC/game1/clipart/smirk.gif> You said "Does not air carry energy waves?" Well actually, no, air does not carry energy waves. If anything it is a hindrance, or maybe a minor annoyance. Energy waves (I am assuming you mean electromagnetic energy waves) pretty much travel the best in a vacuum (the kind in outer space, not the one you clean your carpets with). That is how we receive light from the sun and can detect distant stars from their radio signals. Now if you were talking about other types of energy waves (unknown and unknowable) I would suspect they would behave similarly. Now sound waves - that is a different matter. You definitely have to have some medium to transmit them. That is why most sci-fi movies are so ridiculous when they show these big explosions in space with thunderous sound. It makes good cinema, but since there is nothing to transmit the sound in space, it it ludicrous. Twiggyish Friday, October 27, 2000 - 10:08 am [Click here to edit this post] Elitist, you missed the entire point of my post. The algae example was merely to point out a natural occurring event being misconstrued as supernatural. My feeble brain (although not as superior as yours) was trying to explain perhaps science has not found all the answers. This could explain unexplainable happenings. Thanks for not being condescending in your response. Wcv63 Friday, October 27, 2000 - 10:39 am [Click here to edit this post] Twiggy I agree that there are a lot of "supernatural" or "unexplained" events that can easily be explained away by science. I also think that Karuuna had a point in a much earlier post about syncronicity being manufactured as mankind's craving for meaning. I brought up faith as a totally different perspective on syncronicity. All the talk about duality, energy, statistics, protons, neutrons etc. is enough to make my head explode. I"m going to lay down with an ice pack on my head. Karuuna Friday, October 27, 2000 - 11:01 am [Click here to edit this post] Wcv -- I just want u to know that I really counted on u to keep me out of this crazy-making place! Now yer making me think and post more. Thanks for making me be responsible for my own actions, something I've spent a lifetime trying to avoid at all possible moments! <file:///C:/BBFC/game1/clipart/crazy.gif> Here's the conundrum as I see it. We know that events exist that we cannot yet explain. My friend's son has autism, and my son has an extremely mild form of autism called Sensory Integration Disorder. These are observable, somewhat predictable conditions altho there is great deal of variation from child to child. But we can't "explain" it in any meaningful way, nor do we understand it. The best we can do is describe it as a particular set of behaviors, without knowing its mechanism. We "observe" synchronicity, or at least we think/hope we do. But the nature of synchronicity is so different from the medical condition I've named above, it's not as neatly definable. In order to concretely call something synchronistic, we must say that the odds of that happening are greater than what would be allowed for by chance. But how do we calculate such odds? In order to attempt to calculate the odds, we have to concretely define a synchronistic event. Am I going in circles here? Here's another way of hurting your brains (did I tell you I just purchased some stock in the makers of Tylenol?). Suppose a psychic makes a living by predicting future events. Suppose that psychic is only right 10% of the time. Does he/she possess psychic abilities? In order to assess that, you have to assess how many of these events would have occured by chance, in order to compare the two numbers. But how could you possibly give a concrete number for how many times an infinite number of possible events would occur by chance? What if the psychic is right 30% of the time? 40%? What do we compare that to? Wcv63 Friday, October 27, 2000 - 11:08 am [Click here to edit this post] Luck? A direct line of communication with a higher power? Coincidence? Statistical probability (along the lines of if you throw down a coin x number of times it will come up heads x number of times). Arrrggghhh...get me out of here! Elitist Friday, October 27, 2000 - 11:28 am [Click here to edit this post] Twig - I stand chastised before you. Your point is valid. But what is the standard sci-fi reply - "Any technology superior enough will appear to us to be magic". Elitist Friday, October 27, 2000 - 11:33 am [Click here to edit this post] K - I was wondering how long it was going to take for someone to bring up people predicting the future. Well the way you test a psychic is to have a bunch of non-psychics make predictions also, and see how well they do, then see if there is a significant difference in the success ratio between the two groups. Of course what if there is not difference - does that make the psychic invalid or all the non-psychics really able to predict the future? Lets see that head spin around a couple of more times. |
Whit4you | Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 12:36 am   Well sorry I lied - after reposting the first 25 or so posts I realized it wouldn't be that hard - think I got 2/3's of the thing. I'm sorry if it offends anyone but I've been online 7+ years... lurked on dozens of boards .. participated in a few and this was by far the most incredible convo ever... I read it 3 times "back then" and once tonight as I reposted it, it actually makes my head hurt lol - to many thoughts going on at once.. it really - really was worth a repost, casue when it orginally was posted there was this huge "game I" battle of identities going on and it got lost int he shuffle - the best thread eva online - lost - I don't mean to offend anyone by reposting it here but it definately deserves a repost and I'd really enjoy opening any of the above thoughts to discussion again cause most were not "finished" .. many were not even "touched" upon.... my instincts answer (not sure if it was in the above reposts?) I *felt* at the time was profound... in answer to someone else's profound Q... |
Whit4you | Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 01:18 am   Ok well so much obvoiusly was touched upon that anyone reading the above should have a good headache by now lol... but I would really like to see this topic get opened again so I'm goinna give a lil push in giving an "opening question" out of the 1001 questions touched upon above the one that caught my eye... which was.. ""Does anything beyond coincidence exsist?" " answers anyone? |
Whit4you | Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 02:54 am   ""Does anything beyond coincidence exsist?" " My answer - for anyone not wanting to go through the archives, was in 1 word: Instinct (I'll spare you the 5,000 word version of that LOL)) |
Willi | Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 05:26 am   "Does anything beyond coincidence exist?" I believe the answer is yes. I will share the following story...You decide. My parents divorced when I was quite young. Both had their "own problems" hence I was raised and loved in all the important ways by my grandparents. I moved in with my grandparents when I started college and lived there a year before moving out of state. While living with my grandparents, I made a few very good friends. One friend in particular, David, was so close to my heart and he & I enjoyed one of those rare male-female relationships that didn't include any feelings beyond true friendship & caring. For years after I left CA, he would go check in on my grandparents and became like a grandson to them. I would marry and have two children before the Christmas cards stopped. I heard that he got married & moved away "through the grapevine." I still thought of him from time to time and hoped he was happy. This summer found me back in my grandparents home. My grandfather had passed away two years before. My grandmother was dying which is why I was there...To care for her. Fifteen years had passed since the summer I moved away. Grandma & I had eleven wonderful days together this summer. We reminisced and said everything we wanted to say. Her dearest wish was to stay home so I did my best to make that happen. She celebrated her 87th birthday on July 11. However, I had no choice but to call the paramedics on the afternoon of her birthday. Grandma was admitted to the hospital that day and she would never go home again. My sister and father were there. My grandma had her favorite sweater and slippers but later in the evening, she wanted her own pillow. The hospital was only three or so miles from her home but I didn't want to leave her. I finally decided to hurry and go get it. On my way back into the hospital, I was running in the "after hours" door and literally ran straight into someone. The pillow dropped. I started sobbing and I actually heard his voice before I saw him. It was David. For a moment, I thought, "How did he know?" "Who told him?" I found out that he was there because his sister-in-law was in labor and he came straight after work with a four hour drive from his home. His sister-in-law was brought in by his brother within the same hour my grandmother was. It was a long night. It seemed like days instead of hours. We spent our time holding grandma's hand and checking on his sister-in-law. It was one of the most bittersweet days of my life. My grandma wanted to live to see the day after her birthday...She did. David's sister-in-law, Kate, wanted to have her baby girl on my grandma's birthday...She did. |
Ocean_Islands | Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 05:41 am   Whit where did you find the file of this conversation? Was it from the downloaded game files? I agree that this thread was the most shining moment of TVCH so far; many of the posters never had better posts, and some of them have left the site for other things. |
Twiggyish | Tuesday, September 11, 2001 - 06:22 am   Amazing!! Thank you Whit! |
Ocean_Islands | Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 05:52 am   Some have commented on the strange fact that yesterday's tragedy occurring on September 11 can also be written like this: 9/11. These are the emergency numbers to call for help: 911. Synchronicitous occurrences often have an arbitrary and capricious nature without any explanation in evidence for the strange coincidence. p.s. Strangely enough most of the rest of the world would put the day first and write: 11/9. |
Gail | Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 07:20 am   I think I heard on the radio here that the Flight numbers of the planes also total up to 11, 12, 13, and 14 too. |
Twiggyish | Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 10:21 am   That is so strange. |
Ocean_Islands | Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 02:41 pm   Tragic twist for Irish survivor THE GUARDIAN Staff and agencies Wednesday September 12, 2001 A man managed to escape the World Trade Centre yesterday as it was hit by a hijacked jet, only to find out that his sister and young niece were on board, his family revealed today. Irishman Ronnie Clifford fled after the first plane struck the twin towers in New York yesterday, and escaped the second tower as it was hit by the United Airlines Boeing 767. In a devastating turn of events, his sister Ruth Clifford McCourt, 45, and her four-year-old daughter Juliana were passengers on the second plane - they died as he escaped. Meanwhile, British officials in New York believe that at least 15 Britons may be among the missing in the devastated rubble of the World Trade Centre. Consular officials are currently liasing with emergency services to try to establish identities. Mrs McCourt, originally from the Lough, Cork, was among 56 passengers on the hijacked plane which was travelling from Boston to Los Angeles. Mr Clifford's brother, John, today told of their deaths and his brother's escape. John, also from Cork, said he began fearing for his sister and niece after discovering that his brother was safe. He said: "Tragically my sister hit the tower building as my brother was on the ground floor. He's safe now. He's very traumatised." John Clifford said he became concerned when the two buildings collapsed because he knew his brother worked in one. However, he later "phoned to say he made it, he was OK, traumatised, that he was within an inch of his life". "He went through the front door on the ground floor and a lady was about three seconds in front of him. She was hit by a terrific fireball. She subsequently died," he added. "He said that unfortunately, while he was okay, he had a feeling that his sister - my sister - had left Logan airport to go to Los Angeles with her daughter at around 7.30 in the morning. "So we were then concerned that she may have been on either of the two flights that crashed into the towers, and that was confirmed," he said. A friend of Mrs McCourt, who lived in Connecticut and was flying to LA for a few days' holiday, was also killed. Mr Clifford said his sister's husband was absolutely devastated. Juliana was their only child. Mr Clifford said she was a "beautiful" girl and described his sister as "full of life". |
Namaste | Wednesday, September 12, 2001 - 03:28 pm   My Grandmother had triple by-pass surgery followed by over a year of recuperation, which was not ultimately successful. She had moved to a care facility and seemed to be doing fine, until the day my mother called to let me know she had taken a turn for the worse. I immediately left work to make the three-hour drive to her bedside. When I got there, it seemed like a false alarm. She had a sore throat and couldn't talk much, but there was a "flu bug" going around. We had a nice chat and she seemed much stronger, much better than I had been when I had the flu, in fact. So I decided to stay until she went to bed, then return home to work the rest of the week, promising to visit again on Friday. Just as I'd finished loading my car for the trip home, a horrendous thunderstorm struck, with tornado warnings until 1am - covering the exact route I needed to take to get home. Frustrated, I left a phone message for my boss explaining that I might be late in the morning, and returned to my grandmother's room to wait out the storm. The warnings were cancelled at 11pm, and I was about to set off for home when my grandmother took a sudden and extreme turn for the worse. Six hours later, she had passed away. If that storm had happened later, or finished sooner, I would have been somewhere on the interstate when she died, rather than there at her side. Serendipity? Synchronisity? Coincidence? Call it what you like. I call it a blessing. And I don't care if it proves a thing. But I do like to share it. I think anyone who has such an experience would believe that there is more than what we are able to perceive in our limited capacities as human beings. I for one am glad for that. My personal belief is that everything happens for a reason. (Like it or not!) |
Twiggyish | Friday, September 14, 2001 - 04:06 pm   I believe that, too. |
Wcv63 | Saturday, September 15, 2001 - 03:13 am   The syncronicity thread gave me some of the biggest headaches I have ever experienced. It also challenged, educated, and provoked reassessment. I don't know if I have the mental fortitude to do much more than be a sideline observer this go round but I sure did enjoy my forays into traffic....it made me feel so very brave! |
Twiggyish | Saturday, September 15, 2001 - 02:42 pm   I think over the next few days, we are going to hear amazing stories. Some of them, like the one OI posted are hard to believe. Yet, we see the names on the passenger lists and we know it happened. |
Twiggyish | Saturday, September 15, 2001 - 03:53 pm   One more thing to think about: The date of the attack: 9/11 - 9 + 1 + 1 = 11 September 11th is the 254th day of the year: 2 + 5 + 4 = 11 After September 11th there are 111 days left to the end of the year. 119 is the area code to Iraq/Iran. 1 + 1 + 9 = 11 The first plane to hit the towers was Flight 11 State of New York - The 11th state to join the Union New York City - 11 Letters Afghanistan - 11 Letters The Pentagon - 11 Letters Ramzi Yousef (convicted or orchestrating the 1993 WTC attack) - 11 Letters Flight 11 - 92 on board - 9 + 2 = 11 Flight 77 - 65 on board - 6 + 5 = 11 |
Whit4you | Monday, September 17, 2001 - 10:05 pm   O_I - it was the most amazing/interesting / headache-provoking threads ever for me on any newsgroup / message board so I have it saved on my hd.. (from the "Game I" archives) all the post I'd written to this board were late Monday night... I'm glad to see this and a few others still around. Hopefully some of the BB posters will find this area and this and other interesting threads |
Sandyc | Wednesday, September 26, 2001 - 08:51 am   Here we go again!! I too, had some thoughts about the 911 happenings and also had some thought about Ruth McCourt when seeing that name on the victims lists. For what reason I do not know. What I have found upon rereading this thread is that one has to be pretty much stress free to even consider any of these questions. For the past year my mind and attention have been completely occupied by my children and their problems. I have not had a chance to have a free thought. Oh to be free to let my mind wander again. |
Whit4you | Friday, September 28, 2001 - 02:39 pm   There's a story in the In Memory threads (terror attack area) about Ruth McCourt |
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