Archive through December 29, 2001
The ClubHouse: Archive: Am I justified or just a b**ch?:
Archive through December 29, 2001
Max | Friday, December 28, 2001 - 11:30 pm   Whoami, I agree. She's outta there! Some people do seem to expect the world to revolve around them. As they say of Erica Kane on All My Children, "It's Erica's world and the result of us just live in it!" Those are folks I choose not to have in my life. Much healthier for me! Plus, it really doesn't do these kind of people any favors to accommodate them all the time. Abby, Too bad your DH isn't willing to 'handle' his sister. When you do talk to her, tell her you will certainly inform her of anything serious that occurs with her brother, but that otherwise, it's up to him to initiate any future contact. Since he's not interested in doing that, the ball is pretty much in her court. I don't know if it will get you anywhere by mentioning what she did. CHances are she'll either deny it or use it as an opportunity to light into you about how you've poisoned him against his siblings (which of course isn't the case at all). Either way, it might end up making you more angry instead of less. Aren't "out-laws" wonderful? NOT! I'm so glad I don't have to deal with my ex-husband's family anymore. Dysfunction-junction! |
Littlebreeze | Saturday, December 29, 2001 - 05:56 am   Whoami.... are you wrong? Read my lips... N O. With the cards and email, you went much farther than most would have gone after the way she was obviously steering clear of you for so long. You don't need that kind of person in your life. Noone does. Your case, as with Oregon's case, amounts to inconsideration, disrespect and the utter self-involvement of the other person. Unless there is some serious extenuating circumstance, there is no excuse for such behavior. Being "busy" just doesn't cut it, not by a long shot. I don't care if you have 10 kids and work 2 jobs, noone's so busy that they cannot find 2 lousy minutes out of a 24-hour day to pick up the phone. You just do it. We're all busy. We all live hectic lives. We all have monkey wrenches thrown at us on a daily basis. I know I do. But, unless there were some very serious extenuating circumstance, personally, I would never do to a friend or even an "acquaitance" what was done to you or to Oregon. I don't want it done to me therefore I don't do it to others. No matter how busy I may be, I will absolutely find those 2 minutes to avoid hurting another's feelings. Not to do so demonstrates a lack of respect and consideration for not only that person but for that person's time which is as valuable as your own. I cannot except flimsy, transparent excuses, like the "I was so busy" excuse. It just doesn't fly with me. It's an insult. You find those 2 minutes and you show the other person the common courtesy, respect and consideration that defines friendship. Whoami and Oregon.... please, don't either of you be "doormats", to use your term, Oregon. It seems obvious that both of you are very kind, caring, giving ladies. Those on the receiving end of your friendship are lucky indeed. Remember that. People such as both of you have many wonderful qualities to offer another person. You deserve the same in return so don't accept less. |
Resortgirl | Saturday, December 29, 2001 - 06:09 am   Oregon, I have a girlfriend who has done that to me on several occasions. I invite her to gatherings and she doesn't show up (and doesn't call to tell me she won't) so I have quit calling. After 4 months I called (because I miss her friendship) and when I mentioned that it had been 4 months since I heard from her, her reply was " I have been sooooo busy" She would also blow me off when I'd call to see if she wanted to go to lunch or shopping saying she HAD to clean house. Oh well, I'm done. No one needs friends like that. I am also married and own two businesses but I tell you what, I MAKE time for my friends. If they call at the last minute I do every thing in my power to get together with them. By the way I'd love to go to the movies with you! P.s. I should mention that this friend lives two miles from me... |
Solidsnake | Saturday, December 29, 2001 - 07:23 am   My mother used to say that friendships are momentary and false. I disagree with her all the time when we discuss this but again and again what she says turns out to be true. I am not saying that friendship is a bad thing it just depends on how it works its magic for each individual. Most of the friendships have been momentary not because of my doing but because people just get tired of listening to you and communicating with you after a certain while. Kinda like the been there, done that theory. So I keep it pure and simple. Aquaintances. Its life I guess, not everyone gets the golden egg. peace out. |
Christina | Saturday, December 29, 2001 - 07:24 am   Hey Ore, You sound so much like me. I feel like an easy going person, I expect people to treat me the way I would treat them. Instead they seem to walk all over me. I am the single one too. I need to know where do you start, with the people you know to quit thinking that you are so independant and such that you dont matter as much. I always feel like an after thought. |
Kstme | Saturday, December 29, 2001 - 09:16 am   Oregon and everyone else...I feel like I've walked a few miles in your shoes! I have a "friend" here that used to live next door to me, we walked 3 miles every day for almost 7 years, talked about everything and anything...she moved last year and now when we make plans I have the attitude "I'll put on my shoes when I see her car!" Doesn't matter if she's called me 5 minutes before or not! I love her to death, but she's so lacking on the consideration angle, I groan! She is the only person I let get away with this and here's why... NO SYMPATHY GUYS! OK? I have vision problems that don't allow me to drive...I have a license, but think the world is better off if I don't hit anyone. This means I have to depend on others to get from point A to B. It's very demeaning and hard to always ask others to "come and pick me up" or have family "drop me off". It's very hard to use the bus system in Vegas under good circumstances and when you can't read the numbers of the busses it's harder, so I don't use them. TheKid and Dad don't want me to use the busses here either. I also have some annoying health problems that cause me a whole lot of pain, tiredness and swelling. I don't know day to day or hour to hour, how I'll feel or if I'll be able to go out for coffee or lunch. If I get the opportunity to go, my friend knows, I suck up and deal no matter what, just to get out for a few hours. What does make me want to hit her with a wet noodle is when she's almost to the door and calls to cancel or doesn't call at all when I've taken time to get ready...some days that's the hardest part. She's beautiful, older and single...her boyfriend takes priority...he's married. Would I have picked this person as a friend? NO, not in a million years. I did tho...because I live in an area where it's hard to meet people, I don't work, I don't have small children in school, I don't have to "explain" to her what is happening with my health and she's truly the only person I know outside my family of three in Vegas and we've lived here over 10 years. I have other great friends in Seattle...some I've known for over 30 years. Getting together just isn't possible, but the email and phone lines burn. We've been through it all together and I know how lucky I am to have them...so I let my friend down here be just a little wacko when I would never tolerate it from anyone else. I once told someone "We make choices in life others can't always understand, but once we've made them, they're ours." I've made the conscious choice to have this person in my life, frustration and all. If I knew other people my age down here, this person and I would probably not be friends. yeah, enough of my rambling this morning... |
Oregonfire | Saturday, December 29, 2001 - 09:33 am   Kstme, thank you so much for sharing (just saw your message!)Thank you so much all of you. Your comments and personal stories really do mean so much, and I'm glad I have such a supportive place to go when venting my frustrations. It seems like this topic really struck a chord with folks, and it isn't one that's broached often enough, I guess. I've moved a lot, so I know all about friendships that don't pan out! But I do still talk to my friend from grad school every week, who never seems to tire of my boring B.S.! I also made another friend at my work, who is also married (but no kids), and who invited me to her house for Christmas, and seems to not mind at all when I call her on the phone. I've developed a more practical philosophy about these things over the years, my "Throw a batch of spaghetti at the wall" approach. Whatever sticks, works. The other friend, by the way, did invite me to her house for Thanksgiving, which was really very nice, but I think that friendship is going to stay mainly a workplace one. I do like her and we have a good rapport, but I hit the wall with the not calling bit. It further irritated me that when I called yesterday, she said that she didn't think she'd hear from me again. Last I checked, she has a telephone too, and if she was invested in the friendship at all, would've taken the time to call me sometime this past week to see if we were cool. All of this is not to say that she's a bad person or "wrong," but just not as personally invested in the friendship as I am (was). I also don't enjoy being made to feel that I'm just overreacting and do not have a valid concern, and unfortunately I can project where that line of thinking will lead. She may also think that if I'm going to freak out out such a little thing as not calling, that it's not worth the effort. I actually read in an advice column a few years ago that friendships, not being marriages, are not worth the trouble of negotiating. I thought it was pretty rotten advice, but that's probably just how some people feel. |
Soeur | Saturday, December 29, 2001 - 09:58 am   All of these responses are so good. I think there are categories of relationships. Not everyone is what I would call a 'friend'. There are colleagues and acquaintances and there are also a couple of very precious 'soul friends' (the gaelic term is anam cara). There are 4 women in that category for me. We tend to never let each other down, the opposite of that coin is that we also don't place burdensome expectations on each other. I am extremely grateful to know them and to be able to share my inner life and a trust that is well placed. Over the course of time, in the case of two of those relationships, both women have really disappointed me in certain situations and if I had acted on my initial impulse they would be friends no longer. Instead I took some time, swallowed my pride and kept the door open. What a relief it is, looking back, to know that I did. In one situation I never did find out what caused my friend to behave the way she did as she made her need for privacy clear. In the other I explained what bothered me and it brought us closer. Sometimes false pride or the need for validation can get in the way. On the other hand, I had a friend who I really admired (and had put on a pedestel) who was very fickle about making plans. She would cancel for reasons like needing to reorganize her basement (!) and suggest that in the interest of conserving gasoline (and protecting mother earth) I should not drive to meet her (!). It took a bunch of experiences over a number of years before the accumulation of incidents caused me to feel completely at peace with erasing her from my address book. From mutual acquaintances I understand that she'd 'love' to get together with me and it ain't gonna happen. Bah! For me the real issue is whether there is a genuine connection with the person. If so, then I can forgive (and also enjoy being forgiven) for sometimes cancelling and letting too much time lapse before picking up the phone. I have decided not to let that stuff bother me too much while also trying my best not to be inconsiderate and tardy. How's that for rambling?  |
Karuuna | Saturday, December 29, 2001 - 10:28 am   A wonderful ramble, Soeur. I think sometimes we expect so much from people. Yes, there are times when we need to cut folks off. There are other times we need to cut folks some slack, just like we would like them to cut us slack when we're inconsiderate or fickle or just plain stupid. I've known my best friend for over 25 years. She's done some awful things to me (mostly in the past when we were both young and stupid), and vice versa (truly!) Yet, it's the forgiveness and understanding throughout those tough times and stupid acts that's forged a relationship that's more trustworthy to me than any other. That's not to say that there are no friendships that I've walked away from because we weren't on the same page. When to hang in there, when to go-- those are highly personal decisions. |
Whoami | Saturday, December 29, 2001 - 12:54 pm   Wow! Soeur and Karuuna, you make me wonder if I SHOULD give my friend another chance. I have always wondered what exactly went on. I mean, we were having good conversations (mostly through e-mail) up until the day of our dinner date. I did try to call several times, and perhaps I annoyed her by so many attempts (either she saw it on Caller ID later, or heard/felt her cell ring each time?). Or, maybe she was embarrassed that she blew me off like that (like she was so drunk she didn't know what she did till the next day?), or that maybe she was so drunk she didn't remember she said she'd call me the next day. On the other hand, all she had to do was pick up her cell and call me once she realised she couldn't make it. I'm no ogre. If she was with friends, and needed more time to reflect about the person whose funeral she was at, I would have had no problem rescheduling. Or, she could have picked up the darn cell when it rang the first time! That's why I gave her the chance with e-mails and cards during the last year. But, after no response whatsoever, I have to say I am done. In fact, I usually didn't think much about her until I'd come across her name in my address book, and would have to decided whether to include her in my forwarding list or not. Then, suddenly one night, I woke up and thoughts of her popped into my head and I couldn't get back to sleep! It was so ridiculous. That's why I decided to delete her from my address book the next morning when I got up. BTW Abby, you were not a b*tch to expect ANYONE to keep the heck out of your DH's wallet. And you should always be the first person to call if anything happened. Maybe you could just tell her, "thanks for the emergency card. I've revised it to put my name first on the contact list. I'll put you down as second contact, and will leave it up to you to contact the rest of the family in case of emergency." Kstme, I wish I lived in Vegas! I'd drive to here and there in a heartbeat! I was 40 by the time I could afford to own my own car, and relied on the busses often. The kindness of anyone who would save me from waiting on the corner in a snowstorm, or waiting an hour for a bus connection, by giving me a ride home was always appreciated. I'd love to return the favor to someone someday. I also have a friend who can't make plans in advance, cause she doesnt' know from day to day (or hour to hour) if her body will allow it. |
Weinermr | Saturday, December 29, 2001 - 01:36 pm   I am very closely acquainted with someone (not me) who has serious health problems, and doesn't know from day to day, from hour to hour, from minute to minute how she will feel. She makes plans and often has to change or break them, often on a minutes notice. The point is, she is absolutely scrupulous about calling people, letting people know how she is feeling, if she can make it, if she can't make it, why she can't make it. She worries more about how the other people will be disappointed that she broke the appointment than she is about herself. She would never leave someone hanging, or waiting by the phone, or wondering whether or not she remembered the appointment. She is absolutely 100% dependable and reliable in that regard and I admire her greatly for that. |
Sunshinemiss | Saturday, December 29, 2001 - 03:25 pm   Abby, DH's sister was waaayyy off base, firstly in even touching the wallet, and leaving you off the contact list? Sounds like she has definite issues, and if the DH prefers not to deal with her, I would opt out of the contact issue entirely, unless it bothers you to the point of needing to do/say something, then suit yourself. Maybe a note could solve it without the opportunity for denial and recriminiation (you can't argue with a piece of paper). The friend issue is a tough one. I am 42 and have yet to maintain a good friendship over a length of time with anyone other than ex-boyfriends. My female friends have all fallen by the wayside, the 3 closest ones having all done the big betrayal (fooling around with the man in my life at the time, NOT the same one, thankfully, I guess) It has been a good 8 years since the last incident, and I am having a really hard time letting myself get close to anyone again. I wonder if this is something I bring into my life? The people in my past seemed trustworthy, and I truly had no clue with any of them, I guess I am just too trusting or incredibly dense. I can tell it still bothers me as I am getting a little tearful just typing this. I do want to have close and loving people in my life but I don't have a ready-made formula for telling who. I also come from a history of abuse, which by its nature puts you apart from others (family secrets and all) so getting close to others doesn't come easily to me. So maybe I should abstain from advice in this area, I could probably use some of my own. |
Buttercup | Saturday, December 29, 2001 - 03:34 pm   Sunshinemiss, I am a female and I will be a long-time friend
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Karuuna | Saturday, December 29, 2001 - 03:38 pm   I think there are no perfect relationships, because there aren't any perfect people. However, a relationship can be "perfect for you". I'm willing to forgive some things, not others. When we were much younger, my best friend also betrayed me a few times by dating someone I was dating (behind my back). It took me a long time to forgive, but it also taught about what kind of guys I could and couldn't trust too! I think everyone has to make those kinds of decisions for themselves-- exactly where the lines are. My best friend also stood by me when I did some awful, and unforgiveable things in my life. Sometimes we couldn't talk about the difficult times right away, but we did eventually talk them over and work them out, and offer profuse remorse where necessary. But we hung in together, even if it took years for that to happen. For me, the value of a friendship where you know you can be your true and flawed self, and know you're still loved, is something that can't be replaced by anything. But that kind of friendship is truly a miracle, and difficult to find and maintain. |
Oregonfire | Saturday, December 29, 2001 - 03:57 pm   Sunshinemiss, that is horrible! I went through that situation myself with a former friend. The first time it happened with her was okay--I could forgive her because this guy and I had broken up, and they went out for a long time. But it did come back to haunt me later, because I think she fooled around with a later boyfriend of mine (just a hunch no way to prove it). He was a total loser anyway, and it was about five years ago, so like ancient history to me. My head was in a bad place too, so I'm sure I wasn't the most perfect girlfriend either. But trust is very difficult as far as that whole thing goes, and I do wish people would try a bit harder to keep it in their pants once in a while. BTW, I was the "other woman" once in college, but the absentee girlfriend was not a friend of mine, and frankly I needed the ego boost badly because my gorgeous roommates were always snagging every cute guy that walked through the door. I broke it off after a few weeks from guilt. He went on to marry the woman and have babies, and I don't think he was a louse, but a nice guy. OMG, did I just tell that to the entire world? |
Sunshinemiss | Saturday, December 29, 2001 - 04:03 pm   Aw thanks Butter! If your merry roadtrip brings you in the vicinity of Sacramento, CA, email me and we'll have lunch and girl talk. Some things are easier to forgive than others. I think it was the dishonesty of the lie more than the infidelity that bothered me. |
Meme9 | Saturday, December 29, 2001 - 05:28 pm   I've been trying to forgive some people in my life also....if I could just get that dam knife out of my back maybe it would be easier. I've forgiven others that have done bad things, but this one is hard(no it's not my hubby or family). But these were people I care about very much. When they had a family member die, I prepared food, and purchased food for them to eat that day because I know what their day was like. I cried, and prayed for their grief and loss to be short. Took the food to them and hugged them all and offered to helping in any way that I could. Told them all I love them so and meant it. Less than a month later, I find out they had been making the plans of betraying me and my family (I won't say how). (I guess the grass always looks greener in the other yard.) At first I could not believe it, second I was angry and would just glare at them, but now I just pretend that they aren't in my world, if I pass one I don't acknowledge that they are there at all. (My way of coping I guess) And I think that maybe that is best, because just the other day as I was coming out of the grocery store I over heard one of them saying "she doesn't even say anything to me" So I'm also having trouble TRUSTING people, as now I'm always looking for the KNIFE in their hand, and I feel everyone just wants something and I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop. Forgiving is something I pray about often, for some reason this one is harder to do. I know I need to but for now I haven't been able to. *ok, now I'll stop venting and go sit in the corner. No matter what they do I'm not getting a knife of my our. I refuse to be like them...no matter what that little voice says in my head..hehehe |
Buttercup | Saturday, December 29, 2001 - 05:57 pm   Okay, ya'll...I'm fixin' for us all to be friends for a loooong time! Buttercup is picking up on her new hometown drawl and language
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Car54 | Saturday, December 29, 2001 - 06:06 pm   Meme, you are not alone in this. I struggle with this everyday. I was an only child and when my mother died, her brothers and their wives were beside me helping me for the last 3 months with her care. My mother died a terrible, painful death that took months. I was the only child in our family that did not grow up in their town, so I was very grateful for the support. My mother left a letter warning me not to trust her family ( tho she loved them very much). My mother was a very paranoid person and I thought she was just doing some of the same old thing. The afternoon that I came home from planning her funeral her beloved younger brother woke me up from a nap and proceeded to tell me his plan for "helping me settle the estate". Somewhere in the plan, my mother's house became his step-daughter's and she would "help" me by taking over of all the furnishings. My mother worshipped him. She was 16 when he was born and helped to raise him. I was so shocked and appalled that I put him off and got through the funeral. I only told one aunt I felt especially close to. She told me-"you can never tell anyone this, it will ruin the family." I got through things. Saw the uncle one time after, saw my other relatives a couple of times after that and then never again. As a child, because we lived away from the family, I yearned to be with these people. My entire childhood all I ever wanted was to be part of the family. I am left with so many questions- how my mother knew what they were and still loved them, why she left me the letter, telling me many family secrets. Meme, you are right. It makes it very difficult to trust. I try to be as independent as I can, and not to need others. I am terrible with money- as a reaction to the family that put money over people. Your story struck a nerve with me. I am sorry this happened to both of us. |
Highlander | Saturday, December 29, 2001 - 06:09 pm   Meme as they say to forgive is divine. Sometimes things happen that are impossible to forgive, not because of the actions but more because it forces you to realize that the person was never who you thought they were and you are better off without them in your life. It is a life experience and just chalk it up to a lesson learned. |
Meme9 | Saturday, December 29, 2001 - 06:45 pm   Car, sorry you had to deal with it too. Highlander, yes I did learn they were not the people I thought they were. And what is so funny is that others saw this about them before and I being the trusting one always let people show their selves to me instead of taking others people opinions. I thought I know them well (over 30 years). But as it played out I really didn't know them for who they really were. I think that is why it's harder to forgive. Yep, a rat is easy to forgive, because I know he's a rat. Friends are not as easy, because I didn't know they were rats. hehehe that's almost funny. Oh you know what I mean! |
Car54 | Saturday, December 29, 2001 - 06:52 pm   Exactly- In my case, I still don't understand the whole family history and dynamic. My mother did, and tried to protect me, but it really hurt me, and unlike my mom, I just wasn't able to stay a part of the group and pretend things were ok when I knew what the reality was. Probably pretty immature of me. I have always been too idealistic, and when people turn out to be something else, it really hurts. |
Soeur | Saturday, December 29, 2001 - 06:53 pm   Sometimes apologies aren't enough and people have to accept that they are basically incompatible. Wish each other well and move on.  |
Highlander | Saturday, December 29, 2001 - 06:55 pm   Meme nothing wrong with trusting someone. Its like the old phrase, fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me. You take things as lessons learned and move on. Don't put pressure on yourself to forgive, the key is to forget. lol. |
Logan | Saturday, December 29, 2001 - 07:04 pm   Meme,,,the knives you don't have in your back, are sticking in mine. I have come to a point in my life where I too look for those "knives" in others hands a bit more carefully. I've been betrayed in virtual and in reality. Fact of the matter is, one loses either way. You try to be nice to people, it doesn't work. I'm tired of doing the "forgiveness" thing to people, who refuse to get real facts to an issue, or only take one side, or worse: draw their own misguided conclusions. I became really good, over time at letting those people "walk all over me". I've stopped the "be nicey nicey". It doesn't work. I found after a while, I was more often surrounded by "betrayers" whom I forgave, than the good people who's friendship I value and trust, unequivocably, that relates to real and Online. It doesn't work to make amends. I now find the best solution for me, on a conflict or betrayal, is to remove my relationship with that individual, whomever it is. They only serve to provide bad karma on me. There is no use in trying to beat honesty or truth against dead horses, so to speak. I use my mental "delete" button on them now, move on with the happy things in my life, which are many. For the record: Any of the comments I make above, are not related in any manner to people at this website. They relate strictly to situations which have occurred in other areas of my virtual world and parts of my real life, where I felt I had true friends, only to find they preferred stabbing me in the back. When you remove the "enemy", they can't stab you anymore ~~ (sometimes it takes a while and a lot of pain and heartbreak, but eventually, hurt leaves). |
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