Miss Manners
The ClubHouse: Archive: Miss Manners
Mssilhouette | Monday, December 03, 2001 - 04:55 pm   I liked all the answers and suggestions. I know everyone's responses will help others as well as myself. I think I will invest in very nice 'thank you' cards and call it a day. But feel free to keep making co-work/boss/people who aren't really friends but we interact with them all the time, gift suggestions! |
Schoolmarm | Monday, December 03, 2001 - 10:53 pm   And another plug for Heifer.org....I've seen some of the recipients in Mexico and Guatemala, and you wouldn't believe how one cow, goat or pen of chickens can change the economy and nutritional health of a village! They also built fisheries in the African desert regions that have helped the land return to fertile statis due to the moisture from the fish ponds. Glad to see Karuuna and office helping out with this project! |
Oregonfire | Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 12:02 pm   Unfortunately, an update about the irksome student from before. The last paper from this student was a scathing opinion paper on the Darwin fish, which I had mentioned in passing at the beginning of the quarter as being on the back of my Blazer when we were discussing visual arguments. Believe me, it was a light-hearted discussion, one girl mentioning that she has on the back of her car a big fish eating the two smaller fish. Nobody seemed particularly bothered, no ideology was discussed, and most students were laughing about the whole fish war. I just brought it up as an example of a visual argument, and the different versions of the fish were even illustrated in our textbooks as examples of such. That was probably that only time that my personal beliefs in any form were mentioned in the classroom, other than the time that we had the discussion on a teacher's proper attire in classroom, and even then, I acknowledged that the whole dicussion struck a nerve with me and was an unexpected topic. Anyway, I walk out to my Blazer today, and *someone* had defaced my Darwin fish. Hmm, I wonder who? The student hasn't picked up his last two papers yet, which I gave As to because I'm sick of the whole thing and don't want an all out war. But the Darwin fish defacement is too far. Should I let this go too? I think that I'm actually going to have my spine surgically removed, because it's become evident to me that I don't use it much. |
Grooch | Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 12:48 pm   I'm sorry to hear that Oreganfire. That really sucks. I hope they didn't do any extra damage to your car besides the fish. I don't think there is much you can do in this situation other than report the damage to the police or campus security and chalk this up to experience. This kid sounds like he has much bigger problems than you thought, if he did do this. Remember, even though you believe this kid this this, you have no proof. There is a small chance this could be a coincidence. And you don't want to get in trouble for accusing him on something you have no proof of. If I were you, I would go out right away and put a new fish on my newly washed and waxed car and act like nothing has happened. Taking the high road would get to him. As to the papers, did he deserve the As? I'm assuming not. But at this point, I would leave his grades alone. It has become personal now, and even if you wanted to go back and regrade them, it would be very hard to be objective and you already said you can't trust your boss. The semester is over and I would move on and try not to dwell on this, and don't fret about it. Think of it as a learning experience for you to use in the future. That kid has a lot of growing up to do, and it's his problem not yours. |
Babyruth | Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 12:49 pm   Well, here's my 2 cents, Oregonfire: I say, pick your battles--let this jerk go--he's not worth it and it's too far gone. There's a difference between not using your spine and having the wisdom to know when it's not worth it. You've learned some good stuff about yourself and about handling classroom jerks, and it will serve you in the future. Take this measly fish-headed kid with the nasty bite off your hook and let him go. The less you feed him, the sooner he'll get bored. (But document this damage in case you need it in the future) |
Twiggyish | Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 01:33 pm   I agree about documentation. Also, you should mention it to an administrator. This kid might not stop at defacing your bumper sticker. |
Oregonfire | Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 01:43 pm   I'm just going to let it go, because of the above-stated reasons, and I'm not compelled to change his grades at all. However, I'm not thrilled about sending the message that I will tolerate anything in the name of keeping the peace and my job, and, in my opinion, this act borders on a hate crime. |
Weinermr | Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 02:22 pm   Oregonfire - I agree that you should just let it go and move on. You are trying to act within the bounds of proper behavior, and trying to act properly in your role as teacher at the same time. Even if he was not the person who defaced your car, this student is way out of control, and who knows how much worse things might get if things escalate between the two of you. For your own safety, if not peace of mind, document the damage, replace it quietly, and be glad you never have to deal with him again. He chose a role as adversary right from the very beginning. He's simply a bully. Ignore him, and he will go away and pick another target. It's unfortunate you had to be subjected to his abuse, but it's true that you have probably learned some valuable lessons in the process. It's like the terrorist attacks. If we don't let them change our lives, they haven't won. Take care. |
Logan | Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 03:53 pm   Oregon, you may not like what I say, but I will base my post on 10 years working directly in education and another 10 years on school board. 1. Don't ever give grades to students, just to avoid confrontation or conflict, it doesn't address the real issue, and both sides lose. You by compromising your authority, the student by not grasping a clear understanding of what his class assignments are. 2. Check and see what your college process is, I have no doubt the student knows his rights, you should be fully aware of what your responsibility is. 3. Don't bring your personal "biases" or "preferences" into your classroom. You seemed intimidated by the paper on proper dress to point you asked your mother for money for new clothes. This shows to the student, that he/she got to you. Same applies for religion. Not everybody's view is similar. You must always remain objective especially in college environment. 4. You have acknowledged on number of posts, that you have some quick to "anger" issues yourself. You are allowing those characteristics to come thru in your resentment toward the student. I venture to guess,,the student sees this in you,,,,he pushes your buttons, because you allow them to be pushed. Maybe your teaching association or college offers some conflict resolution or anger management classes which may be helpful. 5. This should not be the forum to discuss the student/teacher problem to extent you have. There is issue of breach of confidentiality....I hope the student never finds this website, for your sake. You are best to take any problems you have with students, to your supervisors, or those above ur supervisors, whatever the chain of command is. 6. Sometimes in education, teachers feel they are in a position of authority and know everything. This is not always the case. So its important to consider the thoughts and expressions of students. This is what Enables Learners...exploring all aspects of an issue. 7. I don't pretend to know what your evaluations, or experience is as a teacher in totality. Perhaps college level is not where you feel most comfortable at. Maybe it would help to reconsider whether you are better suited to Elementary or Secondary school level teaching. 8. I note on your profile you are 31 years old. I suspect the young age..gives more fodder to students who "push buttons", after all they are most likely only 10 years younger. They don't feel teachers at your age know all there is in the world. That's just the way they are. So, they tend to "test" the younger teachers, especially if they are at college level. Many times students graduating from highschool feel they are now adults...so they will exercise their right of passage against professors in college/university. Because,,they are now equals. 9. If you want to be respected as a professional, you can't compromise your principles. Again, I am troubled by giving this student high marks, to avoid the real problem. 10. Practice being objective rather than subjective. All teachers have students they like better than others. When it comes to grading them, all teachers should be fair, and have an open mind, without bringing their own personal experiences or preferences into the situation. |
Oregonfire | Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 03:58 pm   Yes, you are right Logan, I shouldn't even be bringing it up. |
Highlander | Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 04:12 pm   unrelated, but there are similarities. Last year my fourth grader took spanish for the first time. His teacher was an old school teacher from Spain, the children had to stand when answering a question and the work was extremely difficult. My son and this teacher did not hit it off and it escalated to the point where the whole relationship was a disaster. He was failing spanish and there was a mutual antagonism going on between both of them. The teacher would single him out which would only make him angry and resentful and provoke him to an eventual visit with the principal. Last year I knew the year was a bust and I told the principal that I knew I was looking at an F but that I hoped both my son and the teacher would make a fresh start this year. When the year started, I told my son, keep your mouth shut, keep your eyes down and do not make eye contact...not the best of advice but advice I thought was the only way to go. Well time for the first homework, the teacher walks in and says to my son I bet you didnt do your homework. Last year my son would have answered her but this year he didnt. She would make other comments which were similar and I told him keep your mouth shut. He kept his mouth shut. Well he just had his final exam and got an 82 which thrilled me no end. It took a lot of restraint on his part. Teaching is a two way street and it is important for teachers not to get down to the level of a student and let their personal feelings towards a child come out. If they do, with a younger child, they lose the child and it is hard to get that trust back. |
Car54 | Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 04:49 pm   Highlander, you taught your son an invaluable lesson about dealing with difficult situations. |
Spygirl | Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 04:58 pm   Logan, you may not like what I have to say, but I don't think it is fair to say that Oregon shouldn't be doing what she is doing based on this incident. We need good educators and good educators aren't born, they learn -- and they learn from mistakes. I don't think shaming someone is the best way to help one learn. I think that several of your comments were out of line, condescending, and based on some sort of button/reaction of your own. JMO. Oregon, I disagree that you have violated confidentiality by coming here with this problem. Do we know you? Do we know where you live? Do we even know where you teach? How about which section of that class you teach that has that particular student in it? Or which student IN that class you are talking about? How do any of us know that you didn't change the gender of your student, or certain details like whether you really teach at a college or not? We don't. And frankly, if this student were to find this site and read this, only he or she will know you were talking about him or her, but how do you think he or she would prove it? E-mail Neil (site owner) -- and have Neil tell him what your ISP is? Yeah, right. I'm SURE Neil would do that in a heartbeat! (NOT) And even if he/she did find out, what then? Take it all to the college dean/principal? Yeah, right. And the dean is gonna ask how the student knows you were talking about him/her without admitting he did all of those things. He/she can't. You used no names and gave no specifics that would violate confidentiality. Even as a therapist I can mention vignettes of cases as long as I don't reveal anything that would give away the person's identity and my profession has much stricter codes regarding confidentiality than education does. Look in another thread -- I mentioned about a husband pulling a knife on his wife in a session. I'm sure if they read this board, they would recognize themselves, but so would probably 2,000 other husbands who did the same thing. How would anyone else know which couple I meant? I didn't even mention where I had that case (i.e. what location). Ensuring confidentiality is making sure no one ELSE can determine a person's identity based on the information revealed. You have ensured confidentiality. |
Highlander | Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 05:06 pm   Or at the very least, knowing when to keep your mouth shut. lol. Funny thing is now he feels sorry for her. Apparently last month she was ganged up on at open school night by a dozen parents who reduced her to tears. My son, being the softee he is, felt bad that she cried and thought the parents were wrong. It made him realize that his teacher was a human being. So now, here he is, the only kid in the class who defends her. |
Moondance | Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 05:08 pm   We teach to learn and we learn to teach... We do need all the GOOD educators we can get.. Hang in there OF! |
Spygirl | Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 05:09 pm   Exactly, Moon!  |
Oregonfire | Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 05:18 pm   Thank was very nice, Spygirl! But my user name IS *Oregon*fire... Seriously though, I do feel a little weird about the whole thing, and have been using this thread to vent a bit too much. I had to rewrite my response to this student's last paper *twenty* times on a separate piece of paper until it was at an acceptable level of objectivity--and even then, I'm still not sure. And then when I saw that on my car...now I really do understand how wars get started. When I was in high school, some vengeful teens put a "Get out B*tch" sign in my yard and wrote it on my driveway because of a lawsuit that was going on (long story). It was horrible, and my mother always denied it was happening, so it was just more "grin and bear it" for me. Dealing with these sorts of issues has always been very difficult for me. Powerful stuff. But I will try to keep a lid on it in the future. And thanks again Spygirl. |
Spygirl | Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 05:22 pm   You're quite welcome, but I really feel that way -- I wasn't just saying it to make you feel better. And last I checked, Oregon is a pretty big state, right? By the way, I'm not really a "SpyGirl"...hehe.  |
Car54 | Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 05:35 pm   Highlander, sounds like your son did a lot of growing up this year. Sometimes we find ourselves in a situation we personally cannot fix-some of us choose to confront it, fight it... and often there is just no way to change things. OR we can stick with it, get through it, do our best within the situation. That is a very grown up thing to be able to do. I think I like your son. |
Highlander | Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 05:44 pm   He can be a real pain in the neck at times Car but everyone who meets him says the same thing, he has a heart of gold and that goes a long way. |
Merlin | Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 06:17 pm   Oregonfire, I don't see any harm in your sharing on this message board of your experience with this student in your class. It appeared to me that you were asking for opinions and you definitely have received them. You have offered insight into some particlar events and how you perceived them and responded to the situation. It helped me to see things from the perspective of the teacher. I didn't see a problem with you bringing this up, but then again my experience has never included running for school board. |
Highlander | Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 07:33 pm   I wouldn't assume that this student is the one who damaged the car. |
Logan | Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 07:44 pm   Spygirl not gonna get into a debate with you, because I sense your post toward myself is personal, if it wasn't you would clearly know there is a code of ethics, code of conduct, policies, rules & regulations, and professional designation rules and guidelines to follow. My post to Oregon was not condescending, but based strictly on professional experience. Merlin, I definitely know your last sentence is a direct jab. I have no doubt Oregon is completely aware of avenues in which to deal with her problem student, within her place of work. I could post here and make Oregon "feel good" against the jerk student, (which he probably is), but thats not helping her solve the problem. You do not issue grades to a problem student. I think Oregon wants to be a professional and a good teacher. I don't think she wants the way she does her job, (which is a commendable profession), to compromise her career. |
Spygirl | Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 08:04 pm   Sorry, Logan, but my post can't be personal seeing as how I don't even know you and can't remember ever seeing you post. I'm sure you have posted, but nothing that I remember at all. Fact is, I felt you were condescending. Period. |
Oregonfire | Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 08:12 pm   Please don't fight because of me. Based on both of your posts, I'm sure that you're equally consummate professionals, and I did ask for feedback, regardless of whether the response I got back made me feel warm and fuzzy or not. Actually, Spygirl was not trying to make me feel better, but I felt better anyway. Sometimes the universe is a cold hard place, and persistent whining from anyone can be annoying. I do admit that I don't enjoy being an authority figure at all, partially because it entails much *more* personal accountability, not less. I'm no guru, that's for sure. But, well, rent's gotta get paid, principles or otherwise. |
Logan | Wednesday, December 05, 2001 - 08:18 pm   Spygirl,,,I have absolutely no doubt Oregon would like to be a good or great teacher. I think she is striving to be just that. My advice to her was based on that assumption. I don't think she wants to be intimidated every time an idiot student enters her class and creates stress for her. |
Buttercup | Friday, December 07, 2001 - 12:54 am   Hmmm...interesting discussion. Who says Oregonfire isn't a good/great teacher already? Surely she can't be judged solely on an incident that some people may consider a mistake.
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Oregonfire | Friday, December 07, 2001 - 06:38 am   Thanks Buttercup...but I did put myself out there! This week has been very stressful--living off cigarettes and coffee and feel like binge drinking (but have not)...sure signs that I've temporarily gone over to the "bad" place. Carol Ann..don't go into the light... |
Spygirl | Friday, December 07, 2001 - 06:59 am   <SpyGirl shudders....> That movie scared the begeezus out of me when I was a kid. Didn't sleep for two years.  |
Babyruth | Friday, December 07, 2001 - 10:43 am   I loved that movie. For a while there I did a great impression of the little "exorcist" lady and knew most of her lines! She had a great funny little voice. LOL "Stephen!! Throw me the ball marked number one!" "This home has many hearts" "Stay away from the light!" Sorry to take off with this tangent, but I couldn't resist. I may have to rent Poltergeist just for the laughs again. Oregonfire, you have a very good heart and a very good mind. Try not to beat yourself up over this painful learning experience. I mentioned your problem to 3 teacher friends of mine (all Community college instructors--experience levels from 4 years to 30) and all three nodded their heads and said they had experienced similar situations early on, and they just had to learn what they could from those yucky situations and move on. One said it seems a universal rite of passage in teaching to get a student like that who pushes all your buttons, and you just deal with it the best you can, and learn from it and move on. They also all said that commisserating and getting support from your peers is essential and is not whining! |
Dahli | Friday, December 07, 2001 - 12:39 pm   Oregonfire, come on over to the 'good place' the Who wants to Quit Smoking Thread!! LOL |
Oregonfire | Friday, December 07, 2001 - 02:44 pm   Thank you all again for your support. This problem touches on a much more serious one in higher education. Someone I know was just told that she is not allowed to teach multicultural sensitivity in her classroom, and that basically students have the right to call her any horrible name they want, without fear of reprimand, because of their right to freedom of speech. She will be seeking work elsewhere in the spring. Meanwhile, over the break, I will be contacting the Department of Education over some of the other issues mentioned previously, and reading up on constitutional law. |
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