Archive through March 12, 2001

The ClubHouse: General Discussions - Jan -Apr. 2001: March: * Physical Abuse: What is your definition of "spanking" versus "beating"?: Archive through March 12, 2001

Guruchaz

Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 03:50 pm Click here to edit this post

This debate started in the Survivor II thread but I wanted to bring it out here so everyone can provide their viewpoint on disciplining a child.

Some people's definition of "beat" varies from their definition of "spanking". What is your definition and how do you think it affects a person as they grow into adulthood?

I've posted the conversation up to this point in the Survivor II thread below. Feel free to add to it.

Guruchaz

Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 03:54 pm Click here to edit this post

Eaglemagic
Tuesday, March 06, 2001 - 12:05 pm

I actually have heard some stuff about Mike and his violent
streak. Supposedly he shot at a deer while sitting in his car -
it crossed in front of the car. And someone told me that it was
captured on video that he was beating his son. I don't know
what show it appeared on.

It was obvious to me that he has a violent temper. I know he
has supposedly had a "spiritual awakening." I certainly hope it
is true.

Guruchaz
Tuesday, March 06, 2001 - 12:13 pm

They said the same stuff about Richard Hatch and how he
beat his son and blah blah blah. First, you have to define the
word "beat" by the original person who said that. It seems to
vary these days and probably one of the reasons why kids
aren't getting the discipline they need to keep them in line and
from shooting each other in high schools.

Parents fear being sued for another person's definition of
"beating" like with a belt or a fly swatter or the flat of the
hand. I seriously doubt they meant with a fist


Karuuna
Wednesday, March 07, 2001 - 08:53 am

Guru -- as someone who has suffered many "beatings" with a
belt, a brush, and the flat of the hand, I can assure you a
great deal of damage can be done -- both physical and
emotional. I would respectfully ask that you take a moment to
carefully consider your remarks and thoughts about this.

Guruchaz
Wednesday, March 07, 2001 - 09:32 am

Oh please. Like you're probably the only one to ever be
disciplined and dislike it.

I agree that some parents excessively spank their kids for
different reasons at the drop of a hat and that causes
problems later in life. I really don't know your situation but my
senses tell me that your situation was no different than many
others who were disciplined similarly and grew up to be caring,
upstanding citizens.

Again, I'm talking about the belt, flyswatter, and flat of the
hand. Not the fist.

Max
Wednesday, March 07, 2001 - 09:41 am

You can't believe everything you read or hear about what cast
members from these kind of shows are doing in "real life."

Just because someone says they saw the guy "beating" his kid
doesn't mean he was doing anything other than giving a swift
smack on the butt when the kid messed up. Acutally, all it
really means is that someone wants to get a rise out of you by
saying they have some dirt on someone who's in the media
spotlight. It's just gossip.

Guruchaz
Wednesday, March 07, 2001 - 12:20 pm

Exactly, in 90% of the cases.

Rollerboy
Wednesday, March 07, 2001 - 12:38 pm

Ah, finally, the idle gossip, wild speculation and baseless rumor
thread. Now we're having fun.

Guruchaz
Wednesday, March 07, 2001 - 12:38 pm

You got it.

Karuuna
Wednesday, March 07, 2001 - 01:49 pm

Guru -- your senses are quite wrong. I was *beaten* by a belt
till my legs bled and I couldn't walk. I was slapped repeatedly in
the face with an open hand, until my lips and nose bled, and I
was almost unconscious. I was also choked repeatedly, thrown
down stairs and locked in a small windowless closet for hours
-- all in the name of discipline.

You jumped to a quite erroneous conclusion without asking
questions and while making a lot of assumptions according to
your own biases. If there is anyone guilty of wild speculation
and baseless rumor, it would appear to be you.

Karuuna
Wednesday, March 07, 2001 - 02:30 pm

To be more clear, my point is simply this: that what instrument
was used is not necessarily the determining factor in whether
something could legitimately be called a "beating" or not.

Rollerboy
Wednesday, March 07, 2001 - 03:10 pm

Karuuna, I was the one who mentioned wild speculation and
baseless rumor, not Guru. I was simply making an observation
regarding the character assassination of Michael being
perpetrated here. Further, the observation was tongue in
cheek.

Karuuna
Wednesday, March 07, 2001 - 04:51 pm

Roller, I'm aware that you made the comment. However, Guru
agreed with it by saying "You got it." So I think I'm correct in
believing that he accepts that view.

As for character assassination, my comments about Michael
were my opinion, just as others have offered opinions about
other participants in Survivor, both positive and negative. It is
based on my years of working with both the battered and
batterers, and seeing striking similarities in the personality of
Michael with many of the batterers I've worked with and
studied. It is, however, MY opinion, as I have stated clearly
previously. I have never *accused* Michael of doing anything
in particular. I don't know the facts about any such
accusations, so I have chosen not to comment on their
veracity.

In looking over other comments, I don't see anyone wildly
assassinating character. I see people offering their opinions of
his character, based on what they have heard or seen. That's
what we do here, comment on the folks in the Survivor game,
and what our impressions of them are.

I did think your comment was tongue in cheek. I do not know if
Guru's was also. However, Guru commented about MY
character, and I do know that Guru was quite wrong about his
impression of me, and his assessment of ME was based on his
own wild conjecturing, and I presume his own biases. I think I
have every right to correct that.

Guruchaz
Wednesday, March 07, 2001 - 05:52 pm

Karuuna, just because in your paradigm you believe you were
"beaten" based on your own personal situation, it doesn't mean
that's the solid definition for everyone else's paradigm just
because a news article prints the word "beat" in its pages.

If you were treated that horribly, I am sorry for that but that
doesn't mean Michael is automatically guilty either just because
a supermarket "rag" says so.

Rollerboy
Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 08:07 am

I think you have tunnel vision Karuuna. Pre- judging others
based on your own experiences, without all the facts, leads to
flawed conclusions. Also, slandering someone and then stating
you were only expressing your "opinion" about them is a cop
out. Of course that's just my opinion.

Moondance
Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 12:57 pm

Rollerboy and Guru ... it was Eaglemagic who brought up
hearing he was a child beater not Kuruuna... I believe Kur was
just stating that Mike had characteristics similar to the people
she had worked with. She was open and expressed her
experience and feelings and shouldn't be condemned for that...
JMO

Karuuna
Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 01:27 pm

I don't know if I have tunnel vision, but I surely have a problem
with the logic being expressed here. Because I fail to see the
difference in my expressing my "hunch" that Michael was
violent, and Guru's "my senses tell me" comment that he made
about me; and RollerBoy's "I think you have tunnel vision"
comment -- both of which were negative comments about my
character.

All of these things are conclusions and opinions, based on
observations we have each made as individuals. They may be
right or wrong. They may be somewhat right or somewhat
wrong. They should be subject to change if new information
presents itself that contradicts them (IMO).

Perhaps one of you could enlighten me about why it is okay for
you two to speculate about my character, but it's slander if I
speculate about someone else's?

Guruchaz
Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 01:42 pm

The problem, Karuuna, is that I can't tell if you were properly
disciplined and just bitter about it or if you were actually
beaten senseless. It's the same for supermarket "rags". What's
true and what's not and how does your story fit in with Mike?
I'm confused as you now want to seem to talk about your
childhood.

Moondance
Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 01:49 pm

Guru "properly disciplined" is defined differently for everyone.
You seem to only think your definition is the right one when
there are others who would disagree.

Digilady
Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 02:01 pm

Absolutely, Moon. IMHO from what Kar wrote, there was
nothing proper in THAT discipline at-tall.

We call that 'abuse' in these parts.

Rollerboy
Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 02:07 pm

Please explain how the tunnel vision comment can be
construed to be a negative statement about your character. A
lack of objectivity is not a negative or positive state and it
isn't "good" or "bad". The ad hominum statement you responded
with didn't really advance the discussion or address the issues
raised.

Guruchaz
Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 03:10 pm

Karuuna, you are right. It wasn't my place to make
assumptions on the severity of your past.

Moon, you are also right. Some parents spank their kids and
some don't. In most cases both situations generate individuals
with positive, moral, upstanding character.

The definition of "beat" is different for everyone, but my
definition is a parent who hits their child for every little thing
they do wrong or drag them around on the floor at the
supermarket. They also use their fists and also hit them in
areas other than the legs and rump causing bruises or damage,
especially on a repeated basis.

Now you can use my definition of "beat" and see how it
matches up with yours.

I have got the belt from my dad in the past and I have got the
flyswatter from my mom a few times and was slapped once by
my grandmother for saying something smart to my mom. In all
those cases, I never grew up thinking I was beat or that my
parents were "beaters".

Moondance
Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 03:27 pm

I don't need to match and compare... I find the subject
interesting. I have worked in a Rape treatment and abuse
center and the people who do abuse usually have been abused
themselves ... it is a difficult cycle to break. I have met some
that have abused because they were disciplined with
physicality (anything from a slap to full force). I have met
some who have high moral character that their parents have
never touched them but yet disciplined with in a non physical
way.

I feel as a society we have tend to fall back on physically
disciplining because it is faster and easier when there are so
many more different choices to make. I want us as a society to
know that we can move forward in a more positive and fair way
of raising ourselves and our children.

Just to bring up a point ... the recent shooting in a California
School...Santana... there were many factors but the one that
stands out is how hard children can be to each other...
Granted this boy made a drastic choice ... he probably didn't
have the tools inside himself to make a better one but I feel we
all need to take responsibility for what goes on in the world...
These kids learned how to make verbal and physical fun of this
boy somewhere ... and the boy who decided to express himself
to this extreme learned this also... I guess what I am saying ...
the less abuse ... verbal and physical we can use the better.

Karuuna
Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 03:33 pm

Guru -- I appreciate your response. All I have been trying to
say all along is that one cannot deduce whether something
constitutes a "beating" without more information, which
appears to be what you are saying now. However, your initial
comment was as follows:
"Parents fear being sued for another person's definition of
"beating" like with a belt or a fly swatter or the flat of the
hand. I seriously doubt they meant with a fist."
From your comment, it certainly sounded as if you believed
that someone could hit a child with a belt or fly swatter or flat
of the hand, and that would clearly NOT constitute a beating.
From your comment, it sounded as if the only thing that
counted as a beating in your mind is if a fist were used. That's
what I responded to, because in my personal experience an
open hand, or a belt could be used for a beating. In fact, in a
town not far from here, a child was beaten to death by his
adoptive mother with a wooden spoon.

I have never responded in any way as to whether I thought
Michael beat his child or not. All I have said in response to that
was that I don't have enough information about that claim to
accept or deny its veracity.

My own personal definition of "beating" has to do with intent,
motivation and severity. When one's intent is to inflict great
pain, one's motivation is to vent anger, and the results are any
kind of marks or anything that takes time to heal, that's
beating -- whether it happens once or many times.

Personally, I don't believe in any form of hitting a child,
however, I certainly agree that there are variations in degree.


Guruchaz
Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 03:41 pm

That's a good example, Moon. Who's to say that the boy who
shot everyone at the school probably had been lightly
disciplined in the past? You get kids today who mouth off at
their parents and at authority figures at the drop of a hat. You
have other parents out there who basically expect their friends'
parents to raise their kids because they don't have time or
can't make time. You have those that are so liberal that they
let their kids run off and do whatever they want without
knowing where they are or what they are doing. Yet, when
interviewed, they probably state they are the best parents in
the world.

Who's to say that a historical smack on the butt wouldn't have
changed the future outcome of that boy shooting the gun? It
all adds up, one way or another.

Moondance

Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 04:13 pm Click here to edit this post

Karuuna Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 04:00 pm
--------------------------------------------------
Moon - thanks for your participation here. I always appreciate reading your viewpoint. I agree that often parents resort to physical discipline because it's faster. I also think it's because they don't know what else to do. It only makes sense to me, however, that if you teach a child by hitting them to make them behave, then what they learn is that the appropriate way to get others to do what they want is to hit them. And it helps if you're bigger than they are.

From what I've read initially about the young man who did the shooting in Santee, his father was very strict with him, and frequently used physical punishment. Again drawing from my own experience of such things, it would not be surprising to me to hear that his father bullied him much the way the other kids did. His learned response was to fight back physically. And since he was much smaller than most of the kids that picked on him, he found a way to equalize that.

I've known too many kids who resorted to violence out of the pain caused by the violence inflicted on them. That's the typical situation. And it breaks my heart that we, as a nation, don't seem to get it.

Moondance Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 04:08 pm
--------------------------------------------------
I agree Kur... children only do what they know.

I have not read into the history of that family but that would back up the point that the boy only acted out the only way he knew ... if he knew how to communicate without physical violence then I believe he would have not made that choice.

Kearie

Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 05:15 pm Click here to edit this post

I came from a physically abusive family. I would have to say that I have suffered a great deal because of it. As many of you know...my mental illness is a direct result of my abuse.

I was beaten. I didn't need to be bloodied or bruised. I didn't need a belt or a switch or a brush. I always got the wooden spoon.

What made this abusive was the rage in my mother at the time of the beatings. She would hit and hit and hit. Imagine being held by one arm and running, trying to get away from the pain...going in a circle round and round...all the while being hit. Sometimes this lasted for 5 minutes or more until my dad would step in saying "That is enough" and he would take the spoon and break it.

The other thing that made these beatings abuse was the reasons for the "punishment".

Once it was for lying, once it was for looking at her wrong, once it was for saying the word 'funky' (which sounds too much like f*ck).
I could get beat for telling the truth, or for getting mad. I got beat for crying, or for her finding a spot of dust after I had did my chores.

I laugh now, but I recall a time when she couldn't find the kitchen wash cloth. My brother, sister and myself all lined up in the kitchen as she asked who took it. She yelled and screamed and insisted we were lying and would all be spanked. I must have had some look in my eye that told her I was lying. My siblings got to leave and I got the beating. When all was over and I was sent to my room, she found the wash cloth...right under the lid of the pan in the kitchen where she left it.

We were beaten based simply on her rage. We had no defined rules to break. This also made it abuse.

Today I spank my daughter. I have a few times in her life. When she is caught lying and this lie is obvious...not speculation, she gets a spanking. We talk first, we hug and I reassure her it is because I love her...then she bends over my knee and gets two swats. Other times when she has behaved poorly...like back-talking or taking something out of my room or purse...she gets the option of a spanking or of being grounded. Normally, she chooses getting the two swats.

I don't think this is abuse. There are defined rules and the spanking is never based on my rage.
I may be angry, but before I spank I calm down and she does also...before we talk and before the discipline occurs.

My child is not violent, nor am I. My sister, who was beaten much less than me is the one who screams and hits her kids out of anger.

I'm sure the abuse that I suffered in this sense was less than others may have suffered. However...as individuals, we all make choices as to how we will deal with our pasts. Our personalities determine how we are able to cope with the abuse as it is going on...mine was to disassociate. We also all have different threshholds concerning what point we 'break' at is.

I also must add that through my growing years while I was being abused, I believed my mother was the perfect mom. I honestly believed that.
I was treated the way kids should be treated. I didn't understand why my friends didn't get spankings. I believed it was because other parents didn't care like mine did.

I believed my mom was wonderful...because she could always say I love you and I'm sorry.

Twiggyish

Thursday, March 08, 2001 - 07:14 pm Click here to edit this post

I have a totally different view. I have always advocated positive reinforcement. This means I give my daughter attention and praise for the good behavior. Some children act out to get attention. The attention received is negative and results in discipline by the parent.
If you reward the child for the good behavior, this starts being the norm for them. The good behavior will start to be all the time. This method works!!
As to discipline, we use time out and we stick to it. We are very strict on some things and lenient on others. Also, I try not to raise my voice when disciplining. I have a relative who feels a loud voice is the only thing her son hears, but over time, this child has learned to tune out her loud voice.
As to your question on spanking vs. beating, I was spanked as a child for minor offenses. My husband was punished even worse than I. He rebelled as a teen and I did not. I don't believe in spanking or beating.

An example: A beaten dog will grudgingly obey his master, but a well praised and loved dog will happily do as he is told. I know children are not dogs, but think about this a minute. If your boss is positive and appreciates your work, you will gladly do any task assigned and probably perform at your peak. If your boss is negative and abusive, your work will reflect this, as well as your attitude.

If my child grows up to be a happy, well adjusted and positive person, then I will feel satisfied in my role as her parent.


Kearie, this isn't in reference to your post, but to answer the one above by Guru.

PS. I have a well behaved little girl who continually makes her mom and dad proud!

Moondance

Friday, March 09, 2001 - 12:17 am Click here to edit this post

Kudos to you Twiggs! What a great Mom you are! That is exactly how I feel and believe

Negative responses only feeds more negative behavior... I don't believe in physical discipline in any form ... Positive breeds positive! I wish as a society we could move away from the mentality that spanking is the best form of punishment. The way to get respect from children is to show them respect.

Norwican

Friday, March 09, 2001 - 07:34 am Click here to edit this post

IMO, there is a definite difference between beating and spanking.

Beating is a form of abuse and spanking is a form of punishment.

In my experience, the kids that I know that are disciplined with the "time out" method are the worst behaved. Maybe their parents do not stick to it as Twiggy said but it is apparent that these particular kids do not feel that the consequence of a time out is serious enough for them not to behave badly.

I do agree that positive reinforement is important also.

Max

Friday, March 09, 2001 - 09:13 am Click here to edit this post

I don't identify myself as someone who was abused as a child, but by today's standards, I suppose I was to some extent.

My mother was not cut out to stay at home with the kids. She just didn't have the patience for it, I guess. She would fly into rages over odd things, like a drawer that would stick in the kitchen. I remember many times when she'd be cussing up a blue streak (I learned long strings of cuss words by the time I was four) and throwing things and kicking that darned drawer. I used to go hide in the back of my closet because I was afraid she'd turn that rage on me.

I got slapped a lot. There often was no reason at all for it, just a sudden hand across the face. Bloody noses were the worst that generated, if you don't count the demoralization a slap brings. One time, I was out playing with a friend. We had gone down the street (it was a very rural area) and were heading home through a small patch of woods. We were totally within our time limits and our distance restrictions, having a good time. Looked up and there was my mom's car going down the road. All of a sudden, she stopped on the side of the road, jumped out of the car and started stomping towards us, yelling at me all the time. I knew I was in for it, but I had no clue why. She slapped me reallly hard right in front of my friend and the bloody nose started. I still don't know why I got in trouble that day.

When I was around six, my dad, sister, and brother went to visit my grandparents. I was sick, so mom and I had to stay home. We got in an argument over something stupid. (I got in a habit of trying to defend myself with words, which didn't work, but at least let me get my anger and frustration out.) I was in the bathtub. She was standing in the doorway across the room yelling at me. We had a little brush for scrubbing your fingernails. It had a hard plastic handle that was sort of scooped so it left these high ridges of hard plastic (they'd never make something like that these days). She threw it at me from across the room, telling me to scrub my filthy fingernails. I missed it but it didn't miss me. It hit me full in the face. That made me madder because it hurt, plus when I put my hand there, it came back bloody. I thought I had another bloody nose and yelled, "See! Now you've given me a bloody nose!" Meanwhile, my mom was getting pale in the doorway. It wasn't my nose...my lip was split open. We had to go to the doctor and I got 3 stitches. I'd love to think that was the last time she ever hit me, but it wasn't. She didn't stop until I was a teenager. She raised her hand to me one last time, and I looked her straight in the eye and said, "Go ahead. Hit me. See what happens next." She never raised her hand to me again.

You could never please mom. Anything you did, she'd find something bad about. I think that's the part that has had long-term effects on my life. Psychological abuse is much harder to overcome than physical, IMHO. Physical abuse is at least tangible. Psychological abuse, you don't think anyone else will believe is happening.

I think what kept me from being messed up behind all this was my dad. He was the most patient man I've ever met. Dad's form of discipline was to sit me down and explain why he was so disappointed in what I'd done. That was SO much worse punishment than mom's rage!

Anyway, I do believe in spanking that's reasonable. Time outs are great if you're consistent. Sometimes, a swift swat across the rump with an open hand gets the attention you need to enforce a time out.

However, I don't have kids, so I'm really no expert!

Twiggyish

Friday, March 09, 2001 - 09:24 am Click here to edit this post

But the difference is I am strict as well. I give my child guidelines and adhere to them. However, I also let her have fun, too.

An example would be bedtime. She has a set time during the week. Her friends may have a later time but there is no discussion and she knows it.
Homework is another thing, she must do that first above all else.

But, we also know she is a child and we take that into consideration. She has lots of time to play and use her imagination. We have friends who schedule ice skating, gymnastics, sports, etc.. and the poor kids never have time to play.

The time out vs. spanking issue I think depends on many factors.
I could write on so many things involved in parenting, such as communicating, listening, respecting, etc.. A parent who invests their time , will have a well balanced and highly successful child. I can attest to that!! It isn't just discipline, it is the whole package. One last thing, some children who misbehave are acting out. This means there might be a reason the child is not behaving. You never know what is going on in the home.

Kearie

Friday, March 09, 2001 - 09:48 am Click here to edit this post

I think spankings work up until a certain age and then the discipline has to change.

Did you also know that is it considered abuse to put a child in time out for more minutes than their age is? (A six year old is being abused if they are in time out more than 6 minutes...etc)

Sounds like Max went through a similar upbringing to me. I would agree that in this type of situation the not knowing when or why...ie...the psycological aspect of the abuse...was much worse.

I know I learned that nothing I did was ever good enough; I learned to fear my mom; I learned that love is pain; and I learned not to trust.

I was also one of those kids that decided I was going to get beat whether I obeyed the rules or not...so...I had fun and to the beatings simply because I couldn't obey them not knowing what they were.

I wasn't rebellious nor did I get into trouble...I just did my thing and stopped worrying about the beatings knowing I couldn't avoid them no matter what I did.

Twiggyish

Friday, March 09, 2001 - 12:18 pm Click here to edit this post

I didn't know that Kearie, but time out doesn't have to be long anyways. Just the thought sometimes works.=) I bet you are a terrific mother Kearie. By the way, time out is used in my daughter's classroom, as well.
Those lessons taught to you as a child, were the same taught to me. I think self esteem is difficult when the people you love the most are critical of you. I have memories too of being punished for small things. Perhaps it is for this reason, I am very careful to think through everything before administering discipline.

Kearie

Friday, March 09, 2001 - 12:41 pm Click here to edit this post

I like to think my daughter is well behaved. At 15 she's had lots of opportunity to get into trouble. However she has been in competitive gymnastics since she was 8 years old. She is making honor roll in school and she recently tried out for cheer leading.

She got into some trouble last summer when she began hanging around one person in particular.
the friend is now off limits. lol

She still gets into normal teenage trouble...not getting off the phone at bed time, leaving her junk in the living room and bathroom...you know stuff she sees her mom do.

But thats another thread...shhhhh :)

Lafatme

Friday, March 09, 2001 - 05:15 pm Click here to edit this post

oh no!!! she leaves her junk in the bathroom and living room too? does she also require that i make coffee for her in the morning?

what am i getting into?

Noslonna

Friday, March 09, 2001 - 05:50 pm Click here to edit this post

Trust me Laf... run for your life with a 15 yr old girl moving in! One of my 4 girls is 15!

Kearie

Saturday, March 10, 2001 - 08:21 am Click here to edit this post

I must admit, first thing out of my mouth in the morning is..."coffee"...funny how people always take that to mean..."get out of bed and go get me some coffee" hehehe

And they do. :)

Guruchaz

Saturday, March 10, 2001 - 08:28 am Click here to edit this post

Ok, I think we can put 2 and 2 together.

uh huh huh!

Noslonna

Saturday, March 10, 2001 - 08:41 am Click here to edit this post

Really Kearie? I must try that... usually when I mumble coffee first thing in morning I am stumbling to the coffee maker.

Merlin

Saturday, March 10, 2001 - 02:16 pm Click here to edit this post

Spanking versus beating?

My first reaction to this question puts the focus on the person who is doing the physical punishment. For me, it has to do with the amount of anger/upset present in the person dealing out the punishment. I have seen many parents who are so upset about something their child has done, they become physically enraged and they exhibit this anger with the amount of force demonstrated by the physical or mental harm dealt to the child. They may use a belt, flyswatter, switch, bare hand or even words out of their mouth.

In my personal experience, my mom always dealt the punishment in my family. She would get angry at something one of us would do, and we would get a spanking. As I got older, I became aware of how the anger present would determine if the spanking bordered almost a beating. As an adult, I realize now that many times it did approach a beating. A healthy dose of screaming and yelling by my mom would accompany the spanking.

My dad rarely was the one to dole out any punishment that was physical. His manner of punishment was to take me to the garage and talk about what it was that I had done. He generally had this terribly hurt and disappointed look on his face and that was more painful for me than if he had taken a belt to my rear end. The last time I ever remember him taking me out for a talk, I remember wishing he would just spank the heck out of me because that would have been less painful than seeing the hurt in his face for what I had done.

As I became a parent, I had to choose how it was I wanted to discipline my children. At a very young age, my daughters would get A spank on the hand or A spank on the rear with an open palm. A stern look, accompanied by an equally stern no would be included. I found that at the age of 3 or so, I could achieve the desired results with just the look and the stern voice.

One thing I chose to do was to never yell or scream at my daughters. As they got older, there were many times they might do something that would initially make me angry/upset. I always remembered how powerful it was that my dad did not scream and yell at me, and the disappointment in his face was more of a punishment for me. I found that this would help me get over the anger before I would vent it on my daughters. I would then be able to talk to them in a more mature and reasonable manner and I was able to tell them what I was upset about. Somehow, all this has seemed to be successful for me because none of my daughters have ever gotten into trouble or done anything severe.

I have to laugh to myself occasionally when they start boasting they have never been spanked or yelled at. There have been a couple of times where I have lost it and did yell at them when they were very young and apparently they don’t remember getting spanked as a toddler.

I did have one of my daughters skip school one day in her junior year because she had not done her homework for a particular class and did not want to face the teacher. What she told me when we sat down to find out why, was that she did not know how to study. I had never realized that this child had never needed to study to understand her classes. This particular teacher was presenting the class in the same format as classes are presented in college and it required studying. The punishment I gave my daughter was to spend all day Saturday and Sundays with me learning how to study. When we started, my daughter was begging to drop this class because she hated the teacher. When the school year ended, this same teacher ended up being her favorite teacher. I can look back at this and think of all the punishments I have seen other parents use for their child skipping school and be glad that the both of us could sit down and calmly find the best solution and the best punishment.

This is the best way I can explain my viewpoint on disciplining children.

Guruchaz

Monday, March 12, 2001 - 08:15 am Click here to edit this post

This has been a very informative thread and I'm learning something by reading each individual response.


I wanted to pose a few questions to everyone, especially to those who have never really punished their kids beyond grounding, time out, or other non-spanking alternatives.

Have you ever been pushed to the limit as far as truly getting your point across to your child/children/teenagers?

Have you ever considered the possibility that your kids may just be going through the motions because they know what is coming as far as a talking to or whatever and that, in their mind, it would never get any harsher than that?

Sometimes I get the impression that kids who are alternatively punished (as opposed to a moderate spanking) can already expect certain consequences for their actions. Is it enough to make them think about future behavior / decisions?

Just questions.

Twiggyish

Monday, March 12, 2001 - 09:23 am Click here to edit this post

No, I cannot say that has happened. I have seen cases where children who do get punished severely end up pushing their parents for a reaction. It doesn't seem possible for someone to do this, but it is true.

If a child is not taught why something is wrong, they will do the wrong thing when the parent is not present.

A parent has to explain or at least let the child know WHY something is wrong. Otherwise, the child will sneak and do the thing anyways, when the parent is not present.

I know a woman (ok my sister-in-law), who screams and hits everytime she "catches" her son doing something wrong...now he has learned not to get caught..

I once had a philosophy teacher who was an atheist. It boggled my mind that this man could have morals, because he did not believe in a higher being. Over time, I realized he did have a good point. A person should do good, because they want to do good. The good should come from within. A person should avoid the bad, because they want to avoid it and not only because of the fear punishment. Perhaps, that is the lesson we should teach our children. Yes, know there are consequences to a wrong doing, but also avoid the wrong thing in the first place, because the child chooses not to do it.

A severe punishment is NOT teaching the child any more or less the lesson of less harsh one. The lesson which needs to be taught is something which comes from within..the knowledge of right and wrong.

A survey of prisoners has shown a large percentage of them came from abusive homes. Think about it. What lesson did their parents teach?


I hope that makes sense..it took me a while to write.

Karuuna

Monday, March 12, 2001 - 09:29 am Click here to edit this post

Guru -- I think it takes some intelligence and really knowing your kid(s) to know what works and what doesn't.

Does my son sometimes "push me to the limit"? Absolutely. But what do I want to teach him about how to behave when someone really tests your patience? I want to teach him to behave honorably, and calmly, no matter what someone else is doing. I want him to learn that he's not responsible for the other person's behavior, but he is responsible for how he reacts to it. The best way to teach that, is to model it.

On occasion it's clear that my son prefers committing the offense and taking the consequences. Then it becomes necessary for me to find consequences that matter more to him. I have to admit, tho, that these occurrences are rare. I find I *rarely* have to correct his behavior in that way. It's more a matter of teaching him what works to get him what HE wants in life.

For example, if he doesn't want to pick up his toys or finish his homework, we don't get to go to the park (or some other pleasant activity together). There is *nothing* that my son enjoys right now more than spending time with me. Of course, he's six, and I know that won't always work.

I think using logical consequences for undesireable behavior works far better than spanking, for this very reason. What my son is learning is that he will always have to bear the consequences for his actions, regardless of whether someone "catches" him in the bad behavior or not. I believe that our ultimate goal as parents is to teach children to make appropriate choices not so they don't get punished, but so that they learn to make choices that get them the results they most desire. That way, they learn independence of thought (not peer or adult pressure), how to evaluate possibilities independently, and how to really live their own lives in productive and meaningful ways.

Twiggyish

Monday, March 12, 2001 - 09:36 am Click here to edit this post

Exactly Karunna!

"I believe that our ultimate goal as parents is to teach children to make appropriate choices not so they don't get punished, but so that they learn to make choices that get them the results they most desire. That way, they learn independence of thought (not peer or adult pressure), how to evaluate possibilities independently, and how to really live their own lives in productive and meaningful ways."

Karuuna

Monday, March 12, 2001 - 09:41 am Click here to edit this post

Twiggyish -- looks like we wrote about the same philosophy. Thanks for sharing and taking the time to share it!

Here's a story of mine that happened last summer. My best friend (for over 25 years) brought her two sons to stay with us for a two-week vacation. She and her husband have always believed in spanking for bad behavior. They also yell at their kids a fair amount (not screaming, just raised voices); and generally speak condescendingly and disrespectfully to their boys.

About a week into the visit, after all three boys were in bed, she and her husband approached me about problems they were having with the boys. They mentioned that the older boy was talking back more and more to them, speaking disrespectfully, which surprised them, since they had always taught them to "respect their parents." (Note: these folks are devout Christians, so this was part of their parenting philosophy.) I tried to politely point out to them that this boy sounded just like they did, when they got frustrated with their boys. Unfortunately, they just didn't get it, no matter how I tried to explain it.

Then the night before they left, the two boys approached me, while their mom was sitting in the room. They had a very straightforward question. They wanted to know why I never yelled or got mad at them, or at my own son, and why I cared so much about what they thought. Their mom was visibly hurt. I answered that it was my philosophy to treat everyone with respect, regardless of their age. I told them that it was my way of living the golden rule, to treat others just exactly the way I wanted to be treated. After all, I don't want people to get mad and yell at me.

They looked quietly at their mom, and then thanked me for teaching them something. After they left the room, their mom said "well, it's easy for you. After all, you don't have two kids who constantly bicker..."

Guruchaz

Monday, March 12, 2001 - 10:54 am Click here to edit this post

Twiggy,

I think you and Lance should have a private chat in regard to something you stated above. Seriously.

Guruchaz

Monday, March 12, 2001 - 11:02 am Click here to edit this post

Karuuna,

You'll find that most people will ask you all kinds of questions or ask for advice and then proceed to make excuses when the finger points at themselves.

Your best friend is an excuse maker who fears change within herself.