School shootings
The ClubHouse: General Discussions - Jan -Apr. 2001: March:
School shootings
Resortgirl | Friday, March 23, 2001 - 02:52 pm  I am so frightened by what I see on the news lately regarding these tragedys. We live in a small town, my daughters graduating class is 45, but it seems none of us is safe. I'm wondering what your feelings are on the media coverage of these shootings? My husband and I were discussing it the other night and wonder if it wasn't publicised maybe it would not be repeated the way it has been lately. We were remembering when people were tampering with over the counter meds and that it seemed to be running rampant, and now you don't hear about it at all. Is that because it never happens or because the media realized that making it their "top story" only enticed unstable people to become a part of history. Just looking for some opinions and input. |
Twiggyish | Friday, March 23, 2001 - 04:02 pm  Copy cat crimes do occur.. but this time, I think it is something more.. We don't want to hide our heads in the sand. If we stop the coverage, it won't stop the shootings. The problem isn't with the media. I think the shootings are a reflection of a deeper problem. We can't just blame the kids, either. Stopping the media won't cure what ails us. |
Twiggyish | Friday, March 23, 2001 - 04:24 pm  Resort, this is a good question by the way. |
Resortgirl | Friday, March 23, 2001 - 04:43 pm  Twiggy I agree that this problem goes deeper, and it's not just the kids problem. I think that the problem partially lies with school policies that allow some degree of "teasing, harrassing... ect. The old "boys will be boys"... "kids can be cruel" stance needs to be examined and in my opinion, not tolerated. I feel for these kids who are berated and ridiculed by there peers, and no one takes it seriously until it's too late. My children have been taught from an early age that "teasing" someone who is different is not going to be tolerated. Whether it be that they wear glasses, don't have "designer" name clothes, are not athletic, whatever, they should be treated with kindness and respect. I realize that this is not going to fix all of societies ill's, but it is a start. I wish I knew the answers to save all the children from these devastating circumstances, but I don't. |
Schoolmarm | Friday, March 23, 2001 - 04:49 pm  This is a great topic. And I have some additional insight after I went out to a school yesterday to get a placement for a student teacher. I ran into a metal detector for the first time! And my Altoids box filled with change set it off. They searched my bags more thoroughly than when I visited the White House or Senate or Library of Congress!! Since Columbine, most schools lock up and make visitors buzz in and report in to the office. All personel wear name badges and visitors must wear visitor badges and sign in with the time and location of where you are going in the office. This is even at TINY schools...and our local Catholic Schools as well! I taught in the inner city for eight years and never had any problems. We worked hard to build a COMMUNITY amongst the students and parents/guardians and the neighbors. In 8 years there was NO graffiti, NO vandelizism, Nothing stolen. The people had respect for the school and the students were proud to go there. Now, every morning the custodian had to clear the playground of condoms, needles, etc. And there were violent crimes nearby, by not at the school. We have SO many neglected children and social misfits. I'm afraid that our beloved internet and computer/video games are partially to blame. Students aren't socializing and learning how to get along with others. They are isolated with a machine....ye gads, I'm a victim too...sitting here with the computer on Friday night! I'll probably have more thoughts on this later. |
Resortgirl | Friday, March 23, 2001 - 05:01 pm  Schoolmarm, Thank you sooo much for your dedication to our children. I was going to post on "unsung hero's" about who I believe them to be... TEACHERS!!! I know your job is underpaid, underappreciated, and you have in some areas become parents, daycare, social workers, I'm sure the list goes on. As parents, we need to make sure our kids learn tolerance. As a society we need to make sure the "misfits" find a place of sanctuary. All I can say is I am so scared! |
Resortgirl | Friday, March 23, 2001 - 05:18 pm  Just a note... I can't use spell check here because every time I do it says "you have performed an illegal operation"... and then shuts down the browser... I see I have some misspellings... oops! |
Schoolmarm | Friday, March 23, 2001 - 05:19 pm  Resortgirl....Thanks!!! However, I'm not on the frontline anymore. I got tired of our new teachers coming out of University trained by profs who HADN'T taught or HATED teaching. So I decided to do something about it and get my PhD and get into teacher training at the college level. I'm a rare one who is STILL teaching children. I can't give it up. I'm always hauling my methods students out to the schools, and am teaching a few classes myself. I'm very concerned about our marginalized students. The TEASING is one of the most destructive things to a child. And just giving praise and "positive reinforcement" aren't enough. Did you know that out of a wide demographic the group with the highest self esteem was PRISONERS!! They thought so much of themselves that they thought they couldn't get caught. Teaching is tough, but very rewarding. It makes a great second career for those retiring from the military or other job. There is a need throughout the US. Please LISTEN to your children....there are rarely surprises as far as run-aways, drug use, suicides, shootings....but unfortunately hindsight is 20/20. We can't afford to have any "throw-away" kids...they will grow up and could have massive problems for society later. Oh, if only we could have a magic wand and make all children be safe, loved and secure! These problems cut across ALL gender, racial and socio-economic lines as well as living situations. There are lots of "at-risk" kids out there. Are we doing anything to help them? |
Schoolmarm | Friday, March 23, 2001 - 05:22 pm  Resortgirl...I don't have spell check either, and my editing on this antique email system leaves lots to be desired. Forgive my misspellings, too, please!! |
Resortgirl | Friday, March 23, 2001 - 05:31 pm  I had, have a "throwaway" child. I begged the school not to let him fall through the cracks. He was teased and worst of all ignored. He is a bright, handsome kid. But he had some problems. He was "diagnosed" with ADD...I'm still not sure. The school district didn't want to deal with his problems. He could learn, but not in a traditional setting. He started acting out and we were told that he was too disruptive. I asked them to help us, but they said there was no money. In my lowest moments I screamed at them, if you won't help now, someday you may be spending the money on him in a prison system somewhere. We went to counseling, we struggled, we never quit loving him. He is 22 now and one of my best friends, but his childhood in the school system was a nightmare. We are lucky, he pulled himself out of it... some are not so lucky. I'm sorry I am not as articulate as some here... I just type what I feel |
Schoolmarm | Friday, March 23, 2001 - 05:45 pm  Resortgirl...congratulations on raising an "at-risk" child to adulthood. Just think of what could have happened if he hadn't gotten your love and nurturing. It's very different talking about "schools" and "kids" and "society" in the abstract....quite different when someone injects something "personal" and REAL...It really hits home. SIGH, I really wish that your school had been more accomodating with your son. And there are SO MANY others like that...needing help, but falling between the cracks, or victims of untrained professionals or children who don't have a parent or teacher advocating for them. Here's another shocker...I was visiting a school in southern Indiana that had a sign reqiring firearms to be checked at the office. And when I went in, there was a big hunting rifle and a pistol checked in. This was an ELEMENTARY school. But the good new is....there are lots of wonderful schools out there as well. We just need to keep our children safe while we chip away at this problem. |
Resortgirl | Friday, March 23, 2001 - 05:52 pm  We are in a different school district now then we were, it's small and everyone knows everyone. But I don't let that put me in a false sense of security. There are children out there hurting and we are not listening to them. I wish there was more I could do. I guess the best we can all do is make sure we love and nurture our own children and the affect of that trickles down until love and acceptance embraces us all.... in a perfect world... |
Resortgirl | Friday, March 23, 2001 - 06:02 pm  Again, schoolmarm I want to applaud you for being on the "frontlines" and caring about our most wonderful natural resouce... Our Kids!! What dedication you have had over the years! Please, everyone lets give her a standing ovation!!!!! |
Schoolmarm | Friday, March 23, 2001 - 06:03 pm  Well said!! I'm finding now that I'm back in a small town/rural area, that you can't let that false sense of security take over. I had something stolen the day I moved here....and never a problem while teaching in the inner city. I also believe that there are equal or high rates of drug/alcohol and child abuse in the rural/small town areas. Also, there may be easy access to guns/hunting knives, as hunting and fishing are popular. We really need to build a community where everyone is valued! I'd love to hear other's opinions on this topic later! |
Schoolmarm | Friday, March 23, 2001 - 06:06 pm  Oh, gosh....my "well said" was for two posts ago, not for giving me a standing ovation. OOPS! Thank you...and I'll share your son's story with my methods students. That will be 77 new teachers who hopefully will give an "at risk" child the help he/she needs!! Well, I must get to practicing. I'm playing on a recital on Wednesday, and there will be no standing ovation if I don't hit the organ keyboards instead of the computer keyboards!! |
Schoolmarm | Saturday, March 24, 2001 - 05:00 am  They are doing an interview/news report about school shootings this morning on the Today Show. There have been several "copycats" aborted recently because someone listened when the kids were "telling" or making their threat. All of this rage needs a healthy outlet. People need to learn some coping skills...road rage is another manifestation of this anger. I really think that organized extra-curriculuar and co-curricular activities do wonders for kid' sense of self-worth. They usually get great work ethic and team building skills from being in band, choir, athletics, church groups, etc. etc. Of course, if the adult leader is a tyrant, then the rage and self worth issues may end up being worse. |
Resortgirl | Saturday, March 24, 2001 - 05:52 am  It's funny you should mention extra curricular activites Schoolmarm.. We put our son in them all, we tried little league, football, wrestling, band... he didn't have alot of success because the same kids that teased him in school or worse.. ignored him were in all these activities. When the abuse would get way out of hand, and I regret not stepping in sooner, I would go to the coaches and there response? "He needs to learn to suck it up" "you don't want him to become a mama's boy" You get the picture. He WAS athletically inclined but unfortunately he had never had a dad who played sports with him and some of his skills were a little below his peers and that became the focus of their teasing. My son was so filled with rage and anger back then, I just shudder to think of what could have been. When I hear of kids being shunned or teased in our local school I ask my children to try to befriend them or at the very least acknowledge them every day with a "hello" I don't know if this will help but I sure hope it does. |
Guruchaz | Saturday, March 24, 2001 - 10:20 am  School shootings are a scourge. Why would anyone want to shoot at a school anyway? The bullets just ricochet off, but I suppose it does cause exterior damage. |
Digilady | Saturday, March 24, 2001 - 10:24 am  I heard that several states already indite parents if a child uses one of their guns and does the deed. I'm behind that. IMHO if the parents spent more time with Johnny, more love, Johnny wouldn't be so angry. So yes indeed. Nab the parents. At least parents would start excersising better gun control. |
Rollerboy | Saturday, March 24, 2001 - 11:15 am  I know no one probably wants to hear it, but the only way to really get rid of gun violence in the schools and elsewhere is: GET RID OF THE GUNS. I've heard all the pro gun arguments, including the ever popular "if guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns" and they are all BS, in my opinion. All anyone has to do is look at the stats re gun violence/murders in the US vs. the rest of the "civilized" world. We have the solution to the problem, we just don't seem to have the will to implement it. Cheery topic for a Sat morning. |
Twiggyish | Saturday, March 24, 2001 - 11:31 am  Oh boy Roller, you are opening a big can of worms! But, I agree with you about the guns. It is still important to dig deeper and find the source of anger. |
Rollerboy | Saturday, March 24, 2001 - 11:55 am  Society has evolved into a giant consumption (of consumer goods) machine and people can't stop the train. They feel pressured to have things, then frustrated, then resentful and finally murderous towards "THEM". Meanwhile the gulf between the haves and have nots widens which only exacerbates the pressures and frustrations. We've also turned out at least 3 generations of kids who expect instant gratification for all their wants, real and perceived. They aren't held accountable for anything including education. Just move 'em thru the system and let someone else deal with the cumulative results. This generally being the penal system, the fastest growing industry in America. Yes, finding the the source of anger is good, but in the meantime, let's get the guns off the streets. |
Moondance | Saturday, March 24, 2001 - 12:07 pm  Rollerboy said >We've also turned out at least 3 generations of kids who expect instant gratification for all their wants, real and perceived. They aren't held accountable for anything including education. Just move 'em thru the system and let someone else deal with the cumulative results. This generally being the penal system, the fastest growing industry in America.< I felt that was worth repeating!!! I feel it is that and the lack of parental supervision, love and support… That said it does my heart good that we have some fantastic parents on this board! Twiggs, Rgirl, Wink, Bama, Fruit, Nos, Norwican, Merlin... sorry if I am leaving anyone off but I feel this is such an important point... Parent= hardest but the most important job in the world! |
Rollerboy | Saturday, March 24, 2001 - 12:42 pm  All readers can take it for granted that I would never critize any educators/parents on this board. An implied, "present company excepted", as it were. |
Lancecrossfire | Saturday, March 24, 2001 - 02:23 pm  Rollerboy, the part that Moon quoted is something I agree with a passion! It also seems that the issue of respect (or lack of) has cropped up, especially in the most recent generation. I say that not to include everyone that is growing up today--there are lots of great kids out there. It just seems that too many younger folks lack respect for themselves, their parents, their teachers, common rules, and even a lack of respect for life itself (including their own). I think Moon has hit on some of the actions that can result in an increased level of respect--although there must be more (or so it seems to me at least). One of the things I saw while working at 2 different universities was the difference is how students viewed their education based on how it was being paid for. In general, those who had to pay at least some portion of their expenses seemed to take it more seriously. Those who had every penny paid for were the ones I'd hear not taking any of it seriously. Ok, I'll stop rambling now. |
Resortgirl | Saturday, March 24, 2001 - 04:04 pm  Lance, I agree with you about those who pay for education and those who don't. My younger sister went to college and our parents paid for her first year. She had a good ol' time... the result was a "c" average. She was required to pay for the next 3... (actually 3 1/2, because she screwed up the first one) and she really got down to business when it was her sweat and tears putting her through. |
Moondance | Saturday, March 24, 2001 - 06:12 pm  I agree Lance... I paid for mine! |
Gail | Saturday, March 24, 2001 - 06:53 pm  Just my opinion . . . I think there are several issues that need to be addressed with in these school shootings. Guns are just one issue. Much of it needs to be addressed with the parents but as anyone who is a parent knows, you can not control your children all of the time. Especially when they start spending more and more time with friends outside of your home. I feel like TV and Movies play a part in this as well. Growing up, the scariest things I remember seeing were those grouchy apple trees and the flying monkeys on the Wizard of Oz and in the move Charade, (I think it was) James Colburn as a one armed man. To me, those things scared the shit out of me. I did not see an R rated movie til I was probably 19 or 20 years old. There just weren't that many R Rated movies back then. Television was just as tame. Nowadays, the R rated movies are on tv with the cuss words and nudity edited out. I recall a few years back, I went to see TimeCop in the theater. A few rows in front of me was a man with his five year old son. This movie had a very detailed sex scene along with some really gross violence. Another movie I recall is Air Force One with Harrison Ford. Some very disturbing violence. There was a woman in the theater with her two daughters who appeared to be around 4 and 7. I wonder though - if as an 8 year old, I had nightmares about those apple trees throwing apples, what impact did those younger kids have seeing people get shot in the head? I for one am fed up with these a$$holes that bring their kids into R rated movies because they don't want to leave them somewhere else. There is no excuse for subjecting kids to movies like that. Today - renting and buying videos make it really easy for children to have access to things they shouldn't be seeing either. I know that many of my friends have several televisions in their homes so they can watch one set while their kids watch another. Even if you don't have a dish or cable, there are some pretty intense things on network tv that are not suitable for children. I have seen a couple episodes of the X Files that made me turn my head. I also think gun control is an issue that needs to be addressed. Not gun control where citizens can't own guns but gun control where parents control guns and are held partially liable when their children committ crimes with uncontrolled guns. It is not enough to take the bullets out of the guns and hide them. The guns need to be locked away so kids can not get them. But, they need to be checked up on. Doesn't do any good to lock away a gun and then not notice if it has been taken by a child. Anyways, I could go on and on and on . . . with most of these shootings one common thread pops up and that is that the shooter was someone who was picked on or teased and made to feel unwanted or humiliated and finally took action. There is no excuse for taking a weapon and killing people the way these kids are doing it. But, maybe people will start recognizing that the bullies and teasers play a roll in pushing them over the edge. |
Moondance | Saturday, March 24, 2001 - 07:04 pm  Sorry... just wanted to add to my list of favorite parents... Willi and my Mom. |
Schoolmarm | Saturday, March 24, 2001 - 09:20 pm  What on-target posts! I agree that guns need to be NOT available to children. Every year that I've taught, I've had a student or colleague die tragically. About half the time a gun was used. One child was "playing" with his father's park ranger rifle while he was suspended from school. Killed his best friend, as they were unsupervised. SIGH. Another ten year old had hidden a pistol in a stereo speaker and had threatened to kill the assistant principal. Video games and scary movies are problems. Some kids don't have a strong grip on reality, and think that you don't really die.... Some of these movies scare me! And, the biggest problem is the teasing and bullying. But in the end, maybe "what goes round, comes round". Wasn't it Bill Gates who said "Be kind to nerds, you'll probably work for one." Hmm, anyone been to a class reunion lately....the "cool" kids who teased others haven't grown much! The ones who got teased have had some interesting adventures and successes in life. So for the time being, I don't mind going through that metal detector when visiting schools, if it means that our kids are safe! |
Resortgirl | Sunday, March 25, 2001 - 08:45 am  None of the "cool" kids even showed up at my reunion. They were probably in jail or "partied out" from the night before. Gail, The Wizard of Oz still scares the sh*t out of me.... the witches laugh will haunt me forever!!!! |
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