Why the upsurge in teen violence?
The ClubHouse: General Discussions - Jan -Apr. 2001: April:
Why the upsurge in teen violence?
Flint | Wednesday, April 04, 2001 - 06:53 am  I was watching Politically incorrect last night, and one of the topics they discussed really got me thinking. Why the large increase in teen violence? Why are more kids bringing a gun and shooting other kids in school? Or killing themselves? Bill Mahr made the point that when he went to school he was picked on for being short. yet, he never ran out and got a gun. Speaking for myself, I was short in elementary school and the start of junior high. As with so many others, I got picked on by larger kids. (Mind you i can associate with the guest who said that when he got taller (for me it was 2nd year at junior high) he whaled on the ones who used to pick on him.) A couple of times it was pretty serious bullying. Yet, as with Bill Mahr and so many others, I never tried to kill anyeon because of it. I did have access to a gun, but it never crossed my mind to shoot the bullies. Which of course begs the question why does it seem so prevalent now? It would be nice to say that it is purely an American problem, but there have been a few incidents in Canada. Personally, I think that part of it has to do with the cultural changes. Increase in violence on TV and games. The media hype surrounding killings, and anything else the press can sensationalise. But i see that as a small part of it. When I was a teen the arcade games may not have been as graphically violent, but they could be violent. The same goes for movies, and even the news. I can remember watching the supper hour news one night when I was in high School and they went out of their way to show the victim of a shotgun blast in the chest. (Terrorists had assaulted a bus in israel.) So the violence was always there to a degree. One of the main problems I see nowadays is that people don't feel they have to accept responsibility for their actions. It is always someone elses fault. It isn;t the parents fault, it is video games, TV, music, whatever. There was a case in the early 90's where Judas Priest was being sued by some parents. Two kids tried to commit suicide, shotgun to the head. One succeeded, one failed. The parents blamed it on subliminal messages in the music. Listening to the parents talk was enlightening. "Well, yes, our son did drugs and was on drugs the night he tried to kill himself. And yes he was physically abused b his father. but it was the music that drove him to kill himself!" is it any wonder that Krusty the Clown's catch phrase "Don't blame me! I didn't do it!" strikes a chord with people? Anyway, I have rambled on long enough. What do you think? As always, this is just ... My 2 cents. |
Resortgirl | Wednesday, April 04, 2001 - 08:20 am  Flint, We had a rather indepth discussion about this earlier in the month. Look under "school shootings" I wish I would have caught that show, but it's after my bedtime!  |
Twiggyish | Wednesday, April 04, 2001 - 08:44 am  You have made some good points. I think you are right about the increase in violence in the media, which is geared towards children. I agree about taking responsibility, too. |
Digilady | Wednesday, April 04, 2001 - 10:29 am  (Highly unpopular standpoint follows) Flint, I agree about parents not taking responsibility. Is it because there are so many parents who both work now, and have no time at all to spend with Junior? As in, daycare for many years? Or is it because of the dreaded "time out" syndrome? I've heard horror stories here about being beaten when young. I'm not advocating "beating" at all. I surely am advocating real discipline, including a firm whack when necessary. I have friends who use both methods. The one couple who use "time out" have a problem: their rug rat likes it. This they find funny. I don't. The other couple use the firm whack method. Guess what? It doesn't work either. They both work, and one child is in daycare constantly. Their little boy is in 5nd grade, and is a h*llion beyond compare. They quit giving him whacks after he refused to respond, several years ago. Now he's headed for trouble. I sure don't know all the answer, but I suspect that a major part of it is figuring out how to spend more time with Junior. Give him love, respect, and a soid foundation. |
Twiggyish | Wednesday, April 04, 2001 - 10:51 am  I think it depends on the child, too. Some children are easier than others. I just know what works for my child. You hit it on the head when you said spending time with Junior. That is very important. |
Rollerboy | Wednesday, April 04, 2001 - 11:10 am  I think the main reason for the escalation is the proliferation of guns. Take away the guns and you eliminate death from guns. A lack of discipline in all areas (home, school, etc) is also a contributing factor, but the guns are the main culprit. |
Flint | Wednesday, April 04, 2001 - 11:33 am  Here are somethings I have observed that I think contribute. A lot of parents treat the school system as a form of daycare, rather than a teaching institution. As some have mentioned, a lot of parents either don't, or are unable to, spend much time with their kids. That is, involved in their lives, seeing what they are doing, etc. One of my brothers, when asking his daughter where she was going would accept a reply of "Out.". Our parents never would have, they wanted to know where, and let us know what time we needed to be home. (Well, depending on what age we were at the time. One sec...yes mom I am on the computer. No I don't want broccoli. /clipart{wink}) Her parents would TALK to others about how they wondered where she was oging, what she was doing, but they wouldn't get off their collective a$$es and talk to her. It doesn't mean kids need to be in a boot camp environment all the time. It just means that some parents need to remember they are kids, not adults, and that the parents are RESPONSIBLE for rearing them. Flogging the responsibility issue; a lot of times the kids aren't made accountable for their actions. Usually by parents who don't take responsibility for their own actions. Too often behaviour is sloughed of as "kids just being kids" when it comes to bullying. When adults are constantly finding ways to excuse their actions, should it surprise use that their kids do? If you run someone off the road and hurt them it isn't your fault, it is road rage. If you get drunk on a plane and cause problems, it isn't your fault it is Air Rage. And the US courts ALLOW these "defences" to be argued. Which just perpetuates the whole "don't blame me" syndrome. So, it really shouldn't be a big surprise to see the excuses that came out of the Columbine incident, or others. It wasn't the fault of the kids, it was the bullies. It wasn't the fault of the parents for failing to to see what the kids were up to. It wasn't the fault of the school for not doing more to stop the bullying. It was someone elses fault. (The reaction of some us politicians, was it Congress?, was amusing. They felt taht the issue could be solved by having the 10 commandments put up in the school.) In the end, was it anyones fault? Anyway, enough rambling. Just shovelling out ... My 2 cents. |
Karuuna | Wednesday, April 04, 2001 - 12:53 pm  I live in Colorado, about 50 miles from Columbine High. Since that event, our local schools have become much more active in trying to understand what led to the event, and how to prevent it from happening in our local schools. In the last two years, I've worked with the local elementaries in teaching problem solving and anti-bullying programs at that level. I also spent a few weeks immediately after Columbine doing crisis intervention and counseling in one of our local high schools. Because of the heightened fear, we wanted to have a strong adult presence in the school, both to provide physical reassurance, as well as to provide ample opportunities for anyone who wanted or needed to talk. We called it counseling by walking around. What I learned from those high schoolers and elementary schoolers is this: These are kids who are *dying* for more attention. I can't even count the number of lonely high schoolers who go home to an empty house after school, their only contact with the outside world over the internet, tv or video games. I can't count the number of elementary school children whose parents aren't reading to them, and don't have time to play with them. I can't count the number of times I heard from all ages, "my parents are just too tired and stressed when they get home to have time or energy for me." These are *children* making excuses for their parents! Not only do more homes have guns now, but our attitude toward guns has changed dramatically in two important ways. Guns no longer serve a "useful" purpose in any day-to-day way. There's a lot of rhetoric about self-protection, but that's not really the same as early pioneers who needed and used that gun almost daily. The only experiential info that kids today have about guns are tv (not realistic) and video games (also highly unrealistic). The baby boomers are probably the most selfish group of parents ever to have graced this earth. We want our stuff, our careers, our down time, and our kids to be glorious overachievers. If you're asking why there's more violence in schools, you also need to ask why the parents of these kids are beating the crap out of coaches and officials at youngsters' sporting events. Narcissism begets narcissism. While post modernism has been beneficial in many ways, the often prevailing belief is that there is no core morality, and that all morality is all subjective has had great repercussions on behavior. Anything goes means just that -- *anything* goes. Personally I believe morality is highly subjective, but I also believe that there are some core beliefs that are essential -- such as respect and dignity of life. Yeah, everyone got picked on growing up, so did I, unmercifully. Did I fantasize about killing them? You betcha. But I didn't live in a cultural climate that made acting on that fantasy easy. Kids are impulsive, and they really don't get the whole concept of the permanence of death. If we don't teach them respect for guns, we make guns easy to obtain, and we ignore the realities of their psyches and worlds, and we're more interested in meeting our own needs than theirs, well, we reap what we sow. Consequently, I don't think there's any ONE thing that's lead to an increase in these mass killing events. These kinds of radical behaviors are usually overdetermined, that is, while any one factor could have contributed to their likelihood, in this case, there are a variety of contributing factors. I also find it curious that while we lament about how unsafe our schools have become, the facts don't bear out our fears. In fact, there has been a *decrease* in school violence overall in the last few years, it's just that there have been more of these outrageous, highly visible acts. I find it intriguing that all those years that inner-city school kids were getting killed by the hundreds there was no big outcry that something needed to be done. But now that white middle income kids are pulling the trigger, we have the false impression that violence in schools has increased, and by gosh, we gotta do something about it now. At the same time, I see bright spots on the horizon, eternal optimist that I am. I've seen anti-bullying and problem-solving programs reduce the rate of violent incidents by 70% or more in schools all over the country. I see teens more and more taking personal responsibility for their lives, as well as responsibility for helping others. In one of our high schools we've instituted a mentoring program, where an upper class student "adopts" and mentors 5-6 incoming freshmen. The decrease in hazing, and the decrease in school absenteeism has been nothing short of amazing. I could go on and on, but I've probably ranted way too much already! |
Moondance | Wednesday, April 04, 2001 - 12:56 pm  Flint said >A lot of parents treat the school system as a form of daycare, rather than a teaching institution< That hit it on the head!!! Great point! |
Max | Wednesday, April 04, 2001 - 01:23 pm  Karuuna, Excellent post. I don't have kids, but I do some stuff with the youth at my church and what you said about them being starved for attention is SOOO true! Compared to when I was a kid, it seems like everyone's lives have become so filled with things to do, places to go, and people to see that there's no time to do everything and do it well. The kids suffer the most for this. I look at my friends' schedules for their families and they are filled with getting the kids to activities. That sounds good. Sounds like the parents are involved in the kids' lives and helping them do the things they like (karate, dance, soccer, t-ball, etc.). However, the reality really looks more like this: Mom and/or Dad (usually one, not both together) rush home from work. With cell phone plastered to one ear, they bustle the kids into the mini van, urging them to "hurry up or we'll be late." Meanwhile, the kids are trying to talk to the parent, but the parent is still solving some business problem on the cell phone and isn't listening. Cut to the ball park, or whatever. If the parent stays around (often they need to take another child somewhere else instead of staying), the cell phone is still present, and maybe even a laptop computer. If they do pay attention to the game, they get angry because the ref made a call against their kid, or the coach isn't giving their kid enough play time, or a variety of other things. They wave fists, cuss, sometimes argue (or even fight) with other parents. Meanwhile, the kid is still really wanting to just sit and talk with mom or dad, but there's no time. Is this typical? Hopefully not, but there is some variation. I see it with parents at church. They drop one kid at one activity, take another somewhere else, and then run off to choir or band practice or a business meeting or whatever. They think they are being wonderful parents and balancing everything in their busy lives. Then they get really surprised when one of their kids screws up in school, gets in trouble somehow, or runs away. Everyone just needs to slooooowwwwww down a bit. The old "stop and smell the roses" stuff applies, IMHO. Oh, and I grew up with a county sheriff for a dad. His gun was always on the buffet (yes, it should have been locked away, but times were different, I guess). When I had to help dust, I remember picking it up VERY carefully with two fingertips to dust under it and putting it back as quickly as possible. I played commando and cowboys with my friends all the time, but we used sticks as guns for our play. It never EVER occurred to me to think of that gun as anything other than an instrument of death, chiefly mine. What's changed that? The media? Video games? I don't know. |
Moondance | Wednesday, April 04, 2001 - 01:52 pm  Nice posts Max and Kar! |
Lancecrossfire | Wednesday, April 04, 2001 - 02:04 pm  Max and Karuuna, I second Moon's "good post" thoughts. Flint, my long dissertation can be found in the school shooting thread. My thoughts centered around lack of taking responsibility (it's always someone else's fault) and lack of respect for others and self. |
Twiggyish | Wednesday, April 04, 2001 - 06:51 pm  Karuuna, what an excellent post. I also agree with Flint regarding parents seeing school as daycare. |
Norwican | Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 06:30 am  <I find it intriguing that all those years that inner-city school kids were getting killed by the hundreds there was no big outcry that something needed to be done. But now that white middle income kids are pulling the trigger, we have the false impression that violence in schools has increased> Amen Karuuna |
Rollerboy | Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 08:06 am  Another thing about us "baby-boomers". We have a tendency to (rather self-indulgently) over analyze situations rather than make the hard decisions. "Give me a government task force and a long term study". After all, only 40 to 50,000 people are killed by guns every year anyway. (I just pulled this figure out of the air, it's probably less) So it's really not that big a deal, unless you're one of them. The real answer to death by gun is GET RID OF THE GUNS. We can talk this to death and it'll still be going on 50 yrs from now. Real problems require real action, not philosophy. Sorry for the rant, but this topic and the death penalty are just sore subjects with me. |
Bijoux | Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 10:20 am  I think that the problem is more than just individuals and the need to spend more time with kids (I do agree that is one thing needed). I don't think that children had much parental time during WWII, when many fathers were missing and mothers working. Also, during the Great Depression, family resources were stretched and people were stressed, yet people, especially kids, did not turn and rage against their companions. I'm picking up on the question posed, what might explain the difference reactions now? Something that I think is relevant is that in the late 1980s there was a marked change in how people perceived "wrongs". The vocabulary changed from "this xyz terrible thing happened (fill in with what is relevant to you - child abuse, teasing from school mates, etc.) how do I handle it and move on" to "this xyz terrible thing happened, and it shouldn't be that way." Once people start to question the fairness of what is happening, and to believe that they are entitled to fairness, anger results. One speaker has coined this the beginning of the woundology (for those who like references - Caroline Myss - The Anatomy of the Spirit) and a whole culture sprung up during the late 1980s around being victims. One result is that many people feel that they are entitled to respond in kind. The youths doing the shootings are the first generation that has grown up under this cultural norm. They are an extreme manifestation of what for many people, (not everybody), is now a belief that we are entitled to fairness and we are then defined by the wrongs done to us. The boys doing the shootings raged against the definition/categorization of them as victims by their peers. The opposite belief is to accept that often fairness doesn't happen, but we are not defined by the wrong or unfair acts. JMHO. (and no, I am not a Jerri fan). Solution. I agree with the posters about on the need for parents to be more involved with their children. I also believe though that there needs to be a change in society. It's not just an individual problem. |
Twiggyish | Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 10:52 am  "The opposite belief is to accept that often fairness doesn't happen, but we are not defined by the wrong or unfair acts." Dr. Carlson says the same thing in "Don't Sweat the Small Stuff and It is All Small Stuff" Life isn't fair. Welcome back Bijoux |
Karuuna | Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 11:38 am  Thanks everyone for the kind words! Bijoux I do agree that there has been a change in attitude, tho I might desscribe it a bit differently. More than thinking that life should be fair, I think the baby boomer generation has engendered an idea that life should never be difficult or miserable. That we should never be unhappy. If we don't like our jobs, we move on. If we don't like our mates, we dump them. That's pretty classic narcissism -- everything is about *me* and *my* happiness. And I deserve to be able to do whatever I want to do to make myself happy, regardless of how it effects anyone else. From a historical standpoint, it's not unusual for cultures going thru difficult times to pull together, and work for the common good -- like during WWII or the Great Depression. The idea that we're all suffering together and we need to help each other moves us away from narcissism. But during more affluent and comfortable times, like the late 80s thru the 90s in this country, cultures turn more toward self-satisfaction and self-centeredness. It will be interesting to see how it plays out down the road. Typically as the next generation grows up, there's a backlash against the ideals and philosophy of the previous generation. Let's hope our kids show more integrity than we have. |
Bijoux | Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 01:46 pm  Thanks Twiggyish, it's nice to be remembered. I didn't post that much before. I've heard about the book but have never read it. It's great that there are more voices out there saying that we need to stop letting ourselves be ruled by outside events and people. I hope that's the direction the backlash will take. |
Guruchaz | Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 02:03 pm  Ok, along the same lines here, what is the deal with "Road Rage"? More and more people are getting uptight and I think it's a combination of things. People are deep in debt these days. They want to "keep up with the Jones'" and have to have everything now and as a result they place themselves in financial stress. Everyone is competing to be better than everyone else. Heaven forbid you try to pass someone these days on the proper side of the road. Watch and see. Most people will speed up and hate the fact of being passed or whatever and may even take it as a sign of "losing". They then take their anger to the extreme in retaliation. They want to be heard. This is the same with kids. It's like the progression of road rage. They take their anger to the extreme and, as a result, the violence becomes extreme to make their point. Have other factors influenced this? Sure, but people want to be respected in the middle of their own crisis whether they create it themselves or not. In most cases, they create their on misery and push it off onto others. It's boarderline insanity that keeps getting worse as people keep getting more stressed out. That's how I see it. |
Rollerboy | Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 02:18 pm  All valid and interesting points Karuuna, but I have grave doubts regarding the current crop of children. A large percentage seem to have taken narcissism to a new level. I agree Lance, there aren't any guards at the insanity border anymore. American culture in general is crisis driven. |
Flint | Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 02:40 pm  Good points Karuuna and Max. I guess when it comes to the violence in schools, shootings stabbings etc, I have just been lucky enough to live in Canada, where it isn't as prevalent as in the US. You are right though, it HAS been happening in the areas for a long time. It does make you wonder why it hasn't been such an issue for mainstream america before now. Good point Guru; The only thing I would add is watch the people who are in SUCH a hurry to turn into the street ion front of you, whether they are coming out of a store, turning right from a side street, whatever. They race to get out, sometimes cutting you off. Then slow down, and act as if you almost hitting them is your fault. In the end, it (blaming it on road rage or whatever) is all a way people use to try to dodge accepting being responsible. |
Lancecrossfire | Thursday, April 05, 2001 - 02:41 pm  I'm not sure what is up. On the issue of guns, they were around when I was growing up and in school (I'm 45), yet there wasn't anyone bringing guns to school, let alone shooting anyone. I was by no means a perfect child, yet my parents never went to one game I played in or one track meeting I was in. That was for 7 years. Both parents worked, so I came home to an empty house before I was old enough for sports. Before I had homework, I ate food and watched TV. Once homework became a part of my life the rule was always--homework is done before any other activity could be done--that included friends and TV. My dad picked me up from practice each night though. I played because I wanted to do it for me, not to get my parents attention. Although they did given attention at other times. We had bullies--plenty of them. There were fights at schools once in awhile, although just your basic wrestling/fist fight. I realize I'm just one person and there are many stories out there. I also realize most of the folks I was in school with took the same approach. Oh, on the issue of guns--as I said, there were lots of them, only very few were locked up, and most were loaded. We still left them alone though. There weren't many accidental shooting by kids in those days. Accidental shooting by adults cleaning their weapons, yes. And there were fewer gun control laws. And for 1/2 of my growing up years, no waiting periods to get a handgun. There indeed have been changes in the way our younger folks view themselves and the other people around them. Heck, maybe it's a little bit of everything all of you have said...maybe no one big thing swinging the scales. Just lots of little ones weighting our kids down, and us as well in some ways. |
Sbw | Friday, April 06, 2001 - 12:30 pm  Guns are probably less available to children/teens now than at any other time in our history. Yet, shootings have increased. I think instead of trying to get rid of the guns, we need to solve the problem. But are we willing to go back to the old system of one working parent and a less luxurious lifestyle? We need to rethink our priorities as a nation. Maybe we need to reward mothers to stay at home and take care of children instead of increasing child care deductions. Of course we have to hope that those stay at home parents can teach their children right from wrong, "self responsibility", and in general "be there" for their children to guide them. |
Rollerboy | Friday, April 06, 2001 - 01:10 pm  I disagree that, "guns are probably less available to children...history." That is just flat wrong. Any kid with with $50.00, and there are tons of them, can go out and buy a .22 pistol with little or no effort. Of course they aren't going to go thru normal legal channels. I thought I was one of the last of the idealists for suggesting a total ban on guns, Sbw, but you've topped me in that regard by suggesting that society would reject or modify consumerism in the slightest way. For that, a tip of the hat |
Moondance | Friday, April 06, 2001 - 01:25 pm  >Maybe we need to reward mothers to stay at home and take care of children instead of increasing child care deductions< Men are just as able to stay home! |
Lancecrossfire | Friday, April 06, 2001 - 02:00 pm  I agree that men are just as able to stay at home. And I also think that men should be just as likely to get custody of the kids. I notice they aren't, however. |
Norwican | Friday, April 06, 2001 - 02:05 pm  Absolutely Moon! My husband stayed home with our little guy for months after I went back to work. Thank you for making that point Agreed Lance, on the custody thing. |
Sbw | Friday, April 06, 2001 - 08:55 pm  Rollerboy, in decades past guns were found in homes, not in locked cabinets, not out of reach of children. Children were taught to respect guns and each other. They didn't have to go to buy one anywhere. Since teens do not go through legal channels to buy guns as you stated, do you think by stopping the legal sale of guns that those illegal guns will no longer be available? And yes, I knew my suggestion was "far out" of the realm of possibility but I don't have any better ideas but the areas of education, respect and responsibility is the way we need to move as a nation in my idealistic opinion. It would solve other problems in our world as well. Moon... yes fathers can make good "moms". Some women consider it a noble profession to be a good mom. A good mom has to be the "mostest" special person. I meant we need to have a parent at home. Who cares which one...... I know lots of fathers that are better parents than the mother counterparts. Lance, it is a shame that mothers seem to have preferred status as a parent since men can be and are often the better parent. (I did not say always.) |
Schoolmarm | Saturday, April 07, 2001 - 06:54 am  Here's an interesting observation...last night I was shopping at our "open 24-hours' Walmart. It was about midnight, and I was stunned to see several unsupervised children running throughout the store. I asked the clerk who threw them out about this. Can you imagine getting thrown out of a Walmart? She said that every Friday and Saturday, there are many unsupervised children at the store, while the parents are out at the bar. They are using Walmart as free babysitting. Call me old-fashioned, but I don't think that 6-14 year olds should be UP at midnight, let alone be unsupervised at a store. The clerk said that there is lots of shoplifting, and sometimes the younger children are in tears because they are so tired. Lance (and others) I agree that sometimes the father is the better parent. It's certainly the case with my brother! He is such a great and loving father and really cares about his kids. His wife has flipped off the deep end and is probably leaving for good this time. She doesn't really like the kids, but wants them so she can get child support. The are great 'ornaments' for her. Frankly, I wouldn't put it past her to leave the kids at Walmart. Let's hope that legal system is just and fair, if it gets to that point. |
Azriel | Saturday, April 07, 2001 - 07:25 am  Why don't the people at Walmart call the police and get child welfare involved? It sounds like these children are growing up in a very dangerous environment and need some help! |
Karuuna | Saturday, April 07, 2001 - 07:32 am  Roller - I have to disagree with you about the current crop of kids. I used to have my doubts, but having worked with them, I find them more and more filling the gap of responsibility that many of their parents left. Today, I'm expecting a dozen teenagers to arrive at my house armed with shovels and rakes. Their mission: to find a yard underneath last fall's leaves and a winter's worth of animal waste. Why? Because they're trying to raise money to go to Mexico this summer to revisit the children's orphanage they helped fix up last summer. They miss the kids they met last year and want to see how they're doing, and they know that a lot more work could be done to make that institution a nicer place to live. |
Moondance | Saturday, April 07, 2001 - 05:36 pm  That is GREAT Kar! Thanks for sharing that! I agree Az... but sometimes the 'system' isn't much better but that is another can of worms! |
Karuuna | Saturday, April 07, 2001 - 07:03 pm  Thanks, Moon! Actually *17* teens showed up, and a few of their parents. And 21 bags of waste later, I really do have a yard! They worked *hard* for 4-1/2 hours, with a brief break mid-day to tear into a few bags of McDonald hamburgers and fries and some soft drinks. After they were done, they splashed around in the lake for awhile (and that water is *cold*). I really wish I could have canned some of that youthful energy for future use! Mine is probably the biggest yard they had to tackle, but they've worked for over 20 families so far and are well on their way to funding their trip to Mexico. Last year their trip was church-funded, this year they have to earn all the money themselves. They really are an incredible group of young folks, and I'm proud to know them. |
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