Archive through February 12, 2001

The ClubHouse: General Discussions - Jan -Apr. 2001: February: Are you politically correct?: Archive through February 12, 2001

Ocean_Islands

Saturday, February 10, 2001 - 03:47 pm Click here to edit this post

Is it more important to be fair or to be real?

Resortgirl

Saturday, February 10, 2001 - 04:22 pm Click here to edit this post

Real! But I hope my real self is also fair. It's a good thing to not bash anyone or hurt their feelings but at the same time I must remain true to myself. If I think my opinion on a subject will hurt someone, I keep it to myself.

Soeur

Saturday, February 10, 2001 - 05:58 pm Click here to edit this post

being fair = being real

Twiggyish

Saturday, February 10, 2001 - 07:45 pm Click here to edit this post

My being real is the way I answer people. This is my true personality. I pretty much go with what RG is saying. This doesn't mean I won't defend an issue..it depends on what is being discussed.

Twiggyish

Saturday, February 10, 2001 - 07:47 pm Click here to edit this post

To answer your question, be real, but also be fair.

Mishamisha

Saturday, February 10, 2001 - 08:55 pm Click here to edit this post

I strive to be really fair, and fairly real.

*cough*

Fruitbat

Sunday, February 11, 2001 - 05:31 am Click here to edit this post

Good topic Ocean. Being PC often focuses on the language. Stumbling over the proper phrasing is only part of the picture but an illustration of just how touchy it has become.

I hold being authentic dear and look for that in others. It is the intent of the individual more than a political posture that is important.

I'm not sure what fair means here. That word can imply ••••• footing around a subject so as not to offend. Being even handed when that may not be what is in your heart. It could also mean looking at all sides of the subject with respect and reserving judgement as you voice what is true for you. I aim for the latter.

Ocean_Islands

Sunday, February 11, 2001 - 07:28 am Click here to edit this post

Watch that language fruitbat!

Moondance

Sunday, February 11, 2001 - 09:49 am Click here to edit this post

Nicely said Ms Bat!:)

Lancecrossfire

Sunday, February 11, 2001 - 12:41 pm Click here to edit this post

For me being fair is being real. I tend to look at fair as being something that should be spread equally to all. If the facts show someone is wrong, for me it doesnt matter who that person is--they would still be wrong, or right, or have certain rights. I' not going to say that my mother is right when the facts say otherwise. I'm not going to say that a person I don't personally care for makes wrong choices at work just because I don't like them. If they do good work, then I'll let them know they've done good work.

The question in the thread topic, for me, can be a differrent issue than what Ocean asked in his post. At work I'm generally considered non-PC because I believe everyone should be held to the same set of rules (at least in terms of the rules that are said to be there for everyone), and believe that someone of any rank can make mistakes and also should be held accountable for their actions. Those in the lower half of the food chain consider me to be non-PC beacause they know a lot of people don't want to hear that approach. Those that don't want to hear that approach consider me non-PC because they feel a diffeent set of rules apply even when the rules say the rules apply evenly to all.

Digilady

Sunday, February 11, 2001 - 01:17 pm Click here to edit this post

It's more important to be really fair.

PC is a term that gags me, at best. Friggin Yuppie Scum hatched it, I tell you.

Tell it like it is, and you can't go wrong. Sure, every now and then sugar-coat it so you don't slam someone, but... tell it like it is.

My company is the least PC of all. We all curse like sailors, a bunch of us smoke, I wear (best sit down for THIS one) FURS!!

Yet, when a big corp wants a job done right, who do they call?

The one who tells their executive VP that one of his top managers is a total shit. (ooops THAT'S not PC, is it? Digi CURSED!) That he's wasting his time fiddling around instead of getting Product A to market.

And, while I'm at it, that Product A needs an entire overhaul because it's too d*mn slow.

Not too PC, huh?

Just sent back the contract for 2001 last month.

OH and while I'm on a rant... whilst running the Game, I get a few complaints "CHEATING!"

In one case, I was nearly persuaded this to be so. I told the folks involved I'd look into it, make a large announcement and bump that player.

We looked into it. Found that person was not cheating and never had. Forgot to inform the original people of that, and all h*ll broke loose. Emails flew. Digi renegged. Digi's email box overflowed with joy, Neil was ready to shut up shop over HIS email box overflowing...

Fair? Real? I sometimes think folks lose sight of "real". Use it as a catch-phrase, perhaps.

All this to explain why "PC" is a vomitous phrase. What's "real" about being PC? To me, it's being a sheep. Following along behind all the OTHER PC sheep. Nothing "real" about that, eh?
</rant>

Next?

Twiggyish

Sunday, February 11, 2001 - 05:00 pm Click here to edit this post

Digi, you have a point, but I find those who are against being PC, are the first ones to scoff at those who are for it.
Sometimes being polite and mindful of others is mistaken as a weakness.
Are we sheep because we choose to be PC? I think not.
Now, I do believe being PC has gone a bit far..but it is necessary to undo the previous prejudices of the past.
As women, we should appreciate the work of those who have fought for our equality and part of this equality has to do with how we are treated (at work).
Prior to the PC movement, it was ok to sexually harass a woman at work. This was considered general "joking around". If you have ever been exposed to this humor, it is disturbing. How about jokes about minorities? Prior to the PC movement, all these things were acceptable. I could list many other instances, but you get the point.
I don't call people sheep, who take others into consideration.
As to your place of employment, sounds like it works for you, but don't knock those who don't choose it.

Digilady

Sunday, February 11, 2001 - 08:18 pm Click here to edit this post

Erm, your definition of "PC" and mine sure don't match: we certainly are not racist, and my company is owned and run by a woman.

Mind you, there are many grants out there for "minorities" such as women, who run companies. Non PC again, I don't choose to get one.

Re read my post. I don't see where I said anything about women's rights... or sexual harassement.

On that subject though, BTDT! I for one dealt with it.

I kinda take exception to this:

"I don't call people sheep, who take others into consideration. As to your place of employment, sounds like it works for you, but don't knock those who don't choose it. "

So at my company, because we're not PC, we don't take others into consideration? How very yuppiesh of you! BTW my company is completely employee oriented. We're close to incorporating, whereupon they will own part of it. LOL. Your way or the highway?

That's part of what I was decrying in my post.

Racism? Sexual harassement? I don't see these as politically correct issues, particularly the former.

As for sheep, sheep follow even when they know the leader is in the wrong. They do so because they're sheep.

Max

Sunday, February 11, 2001 - 08:18 pm Click here to edit this post

I don't like the PC term either. Respect is a much better term. Politeness is a good one too. If you remember both of those, then you're in pretty good standing as far as I'm concerned.

Fair or real? Well, sometimes life just isn't fair. Fair is really a moving target: what seems fair to one person isn't necessarily fair in the perception of another. Real, to me, simply means being true to yourself. That's always a good thing to do.

There's a book called "The Four Agreements" that is really on point here, IMHO. Here's the extremely abridged version:

  1. Be impeccable with your word. Speak with integrity. Say only what you mean. Use the power of the word in the direction of truth and love.
  2. Don't take anything personally. Nothing others do is because of you. What others say and do is a projection of their own reality, the beliefs and principals on their own belief window. When you are immune to the opinions and actions of others you won't be the victim of needless suffering.
  3. Don't make assumptions. Find the courage to ask questions and express what it is you really want. Communicate with others as clearly and directly as you can to avoid misunderstandings, sadness, or drama. This agreement alone can transform your life.
  4. Always do your best. Your best is going to change from day to day, from moment to moment. It will be different when you are feeling at the peak of your game from when you are in a slump. Simply make it your practice to do your best, without self-judgement, self-abuse, and regret.
I believe that if we all tried to follow these four agreements every day, we would be "PC", fair, and real. Being human, however, none of us are going to be perfect all the time, especially me!

Digilady

Sunday, February 11, 2001 - 08:29 pm Click here to edit this post

Yeppers, Max!

What she said. Respect is where it's at.

Sorry, just an old hippie here!

Twiggyish

Sunday, February 11, 2001 - 08:31 pm Click here to edit this post

Max, I love that book! I have it.

Digi, I did not say you were racist or otherwise, I was using examples of where being PC has helped.

This is where I was answering you:

"PC is a term that gags me, at best. Friggin Yuppie Scum hatched it, I tell you"

I did not say your company wasn't PC. I was saying your statement made it sound as if being PC was being a sheep..with all due respect.

Also, I am not a yuppie..don't own a BMW.

Twiggyish

Sunday, February 11, 2001 - 08:43 pm Click here to edit this post

I am sorry Digi, but can't we debate without assault? I wasn't trying to insult you. Go back and reread my post.

Lancecrossfire

Sunday, February 11, 2001 - 08:49 pm Click here to edit this post

Cool--I'm not a yuppie either! I don't own a BMW. Any Beemer owners out there???

Although I admit that when I got my new car, I did consider 2 or 3 different models of BMWs to get. Damn nice cars!

I know, a bit off topic, although going for a bit of a light hearted post.

Twiggyish

Sunday, February 11, 2001 - 09:01 pm Click here to edit this post

lol Lance, I was kidding, too.
The only thing I have in common with Yuppies is I live in the burbs.

Maire

Sunday, February 11, 2001 - 09:10 pm Click here to edit this post

Beemers are nice, but a Lexus? Mmmmhhhhmmmm now that says class.........

Digilady

Sunday, February 11, 2001 - 09:55 pm Click here to edit this post

BURBS! Lance lives in the burbs... neener.

Beemer? Hmph. Doesn't corner right (unless ya get the new little one?)

Lexus be beeeg. Gimme me old 88 Vette ragtop, Wilbur. (Canterkerous devil that he is.) Oh the tales I could tell about that car...

Twigs: my entire first post was sarcasm. Yours seemed to be on the attack.

I'm real proud of my little company, case you haven't guessed.

Ocean_Islands

Monday, February 12, 2001 - 03:49 am Click here to edit this post

I used to have a maroon Delta '88 convertible that could seat three in the front and three in the back -- without a problem! That was fun. It was like a hot tub on wheels, without the water!

When I drove through the suburbs at night, the cops would always follow me around.

To take it out on the highway, I had to ring down to the engine room.

Twiggyish

Monday, February 12, 2001 - 05:48 am Click here to edit this post

Digi, I wasn't attacking you, I was responding to the PC question. There are merits to being PC. That was my point. Your place of employment was not my concern. If you read my post, I wasn't targeting you, I was answering you. Now, I am not totally PC, as I think it goes too far. It does seem people scoff at those who choose to be politically correct. Your post about people being sheep, made it seem as if others can't make intelligent decisions..as if we all follow without thought. (But again I was answering in a debate mode and not attack).
Sarcasm is fun at times, but when discussing issues it does seem to get lost in the translation.
As to where you work, if it suits you then fine. It sounds like an interesting place.
I still don't think you get what I was saying, but oh well.

Adven

Monday, February 12, 2001 - 06:36 am Click here to edit this post

Interesting question, OI.
I was watching the news last night and it was mentioned that the Memphis(?) Maniacs of the new Extreme Football League have come under fire from the American mental health community for perpetuating a stereotype and that their logo, which includes an ax (a play on the last syllable in "Maniacs") makes a negative connection between the mentally ill and violence. To me, this is silly, and is an example of the extremism most of us find all too evident in the PC watchdog movement and why we often dismiss it. On the other hand, the complaints some Native groups make about team names such as the Washington Redskins is less clear cut to me. At first glance it might appear they are being overly sensitive about this and would be better served devoting their energies to more serious issues. It's hard to argue, though, that if you were to visit a reservation and start referring to its citizens as "redskins" that you wouldn't be insulting them and likely escorted out in more than one piece. If it's a slur to say it to someone's face, I'm not sure it isn't if it's put on the side of a helmet.
The point is that the PC movement is often extreme, humorless and overly-sensitive, but it also plays a worthwhile role as a watchdog of how language is used in our day to day lives and strives to ensure that stereotypes don't become entrenched. If they are often guilty of excess, so, too, are those at the opposite extreme who use dogma, indifference or contempt to accept the status quo.

Twiggyish

Monday, February 12, 2001 - 06:51 am Click here to edit this post

You expressed exactly what I was trying to say. Thank you Adven.