Archive through September 22, 2003
TV ClubHouse: Archive: Alison's Debate Thread:
Archive through September 22, 2003
Caycaye | Monday, September 22, 2003 - 12:48 am     I totally agree with you Juiceman...when I first heard Ali...I was LIVID...because I live in a small town, and that kind of rumor runs like wildfire...and after it is all over and no one really believes it anymore...there are still people who bring it up years later...it never goes away. I would sue someone for a rumor like that, just to prove my innocence in public. |
Nexell2 | Monday, September 22, 2003 - 01:02 am     I'm sorry if I was mistaken. I was sure the phrase Alison used was pervert. There is a differance. It sounds like Jun used the phrase child molestor refering to her dream and Alison got credit for it because she said pervert so many times. |
Coffee | Monday, September 22, 2003 - 01:04 am     Ali used pervert and child molester at different times. |
Nexell2 | Monday, September 22, 2003 - 01:07 am     Is there a particular archive I can check this out in? |
Buggles | Monday, September 22, 2003 - 01:27 am     Juiceman that is a sad story I'm a lawyer (shhh! I'm suing Wendo for spreading rumors that lawyers are offensive ) I'm not intimately familiar with the nitty gritty of this area of law but I do know that waivers are commonplace and used in all kinds of settings (even for example parents of children who go on field trips - 'I won't sue the school district if anything happens to my child'). They do carry weight but can be overcome in some cases, depending on the law of the jurisdiction, the way it's drafted, etc. The biggest hurdle with most slander suits I believe is proving damages. Public figures for example often have a very difficult time proving they were harmed monetarily by outright lies in the media. The standard applied to public figures is different, but regardless I think the issue of damages would be the toughest one for Jack or anyone else alleging 'harm' by BB. It remains to be seen whether he will suffer any tangible harm outside of the BB house because of Ali's remarks. Somehow I doubt it - no one here seems to be fooled We all know that Ali was fabricating or exaggerating as part of her strategy because she said as much on camera - correct? There is also a VAST difference between accusing someone of a specific criminal act (i.e., he 'touched me inappropriately' 'molested children' etc) and stating a general opinion that someone is 'perverted,' 'mean,' 'scary,' etc. And now that I think about it (I'm writing this in a bout of insomnia ), the HGs have acknowledged in writing that they are playing a game in which lying is permitted & consented to the probability that they might be, well, lied about. This really cannot be compared to the workplace, which is filled with protections that cannot be bargained away. Perhaps this is what you were alluding to Juiceman. |
Juiceman | Monday, September 22, 2003 - 02:05 am     Thanks you very much buggles!!! That really cleared up a lot of questions I had and made sense of this whole wierd situation. Like most here, I just recall 'child molester' being used in some kind of context but cant recall exactly. Very interesting situation and Alison could easily defend her comments by saying they were part of some strategy to 'work Jun' into some position in the game. I just feel bad for Jack because, all laws aside, this kind of mud sticks. In my case the worst thing is 'not knowing' who has heard this rumour (or what version of it). Its not like you can phone everyone in the city and clarify what happened. Thanks again so much Buggles (picturing a Lawyer named Buggles is kinda funny though lol!) Please dont sue me for saying that! lol! |
Nexell2 | Monday, September 22, 2003 - 02:09 am     Very informative Buggles. I am also sure of this one fact. The house guests must sign a contract stating that they may be portrayed in any number of negative contexts. In other words, I can say you look or remind me of a pervert or child molestor. I cannot say you molested my child. Survivor has the same clause. Now about those archives..anybody? |
Sunrisedd | Monday, September 22, 2003 - 06:00 am     Nexell2, if you need written proof, not hearsay, from people who heard 'child molester' (like me) with the live feeds they paid for,then do the work yourself. Go to top of page and find, search, then type in keyword 'child molester' and you will have your proof. |
Bastable | Monday, September 22, 2003 - 07:05 am     They said they had a dream where he was a molester. They said he looked like he could be one. They never said he was one. Boy, I'd hate to see some of the comprehension scores on the SAT tests from some of this crew of posters. Meanhwhile, another thread goes pear-shaped. |
Missapril | Monday, September 22, 2003 - 07:05 am     neither ali nor jun made any disparaging remarks about elena. their remarks obviously and clearly were directed toward robert. <> |
Crossfire | Monday, September 22, 2003 - 07:37 am     Here is my take: What was reported, was extremely thin on details, so we really don't know much about the dream, but what we do know, is this: Jun attributes this dream to Ali. To me, what this means, is that Ali has presumably at some point in the past, said or done something to put this unfavorable image in Jun's head, and as part of this incident, further reinforced it by claiming he looks like one. For this, there is really no reason to fault Jun, stuff like that happens to the best of us. But what this points to, is the idea that people are in fact at risk of being smeared by careless thoughts. Things get stuck in peoples heads, and all sorts of interesting things can happen from there. It is a foul seed. In a world where some people are subjected to terrible consequences on account of things like 'recovered memories', it is in everyones best interest not to speculate on such matters lightly. To me, such a claim belongs right up there with the 'theater fire' in terms of protected speech. |
Wendo | Monday, September 22, 2003 - 07:49 am     Buggles said, "(shhh! I'm suing Wendo for spreading rumors that lawyers are offensive)" Aw dang! I should be more careful of the rumor mill. LOL! Thanks for taking the time to post, Buggles. Very interesting indeed. Bastable, pear shaped, LOL! Yep, laughin' at that one. On another note, I did do a search of the archives, live feeds and all. The only time molester was used, in the live feeds, is during the incident already reported. When Jun and Ali were discussing Jun's dream. Child molester seems to have been used only by various posters here. So it seems, TVCH posters are responsible for calling Jack a "child molester". Whereas Jun and Ali have used pervert and molester only. Hmmmm. Neil, mods, got your lawyer on speed dial??? LOL! Shout out to Mary Super! I know you're reading. *waves* |
Crossfire | Monday, September 22, 2003 - 07:55 am     Wendo, I also did a search, and came up with this: From an LFP, Sept 16, 7:13 PM:
<snip> Jun relates some dream about Jack being a child molester. Says it is all Ali's fault. Ali - You can't even tell me he doesn't look like a molester. <snip> Edited to add: Extremely thin on details, but it does appear that Jun used the phrase. This is why I wrote what I did. No one has actually come out and called him one from what I can see, but the foul seed has been planted, and now here we all are, watering it. |
Wendo | Monday, September 22, 2003 - 08:02 am     Crossfire, that's all I found as well. Like you said, the fire over this has been fanned by TVCH posters. edited to add: I don't consider Jun's use of the words "child molester" relevant because she was clearly talking about a dream she had. Not about Jack. |
Lancecrossfire | Monday, September 22, 2003 - 08:35 am     Sure sounds like the dream was about Jack being a child molester. It sure wasn't about Ali being a porn star. |
Dram | Monday, September 22, 2003 - 08:36 am     Actually Jun and Ali were having a discussion on their first impressions of certain houseguests. Jun said she thought Jack was a "hick" and Ali said her first impression of Jack was "child molestor". There's no memory lapse for me. It really doesn't need to be fanned...it is what it is. |
Wendo | Monday, September 22, 2003 - 08:39 am     It's a dream Lancecrossfire. Just because she dreamed about Jack that way doesn't mean it's what she believes. In fact, a lot of times, people in dreams aren't who they are but representations of other things. Or, are we now going to hold people accountable for the dreams they have too? Are the dreams offensive as well? Just want to update my list. |
Steveh | Monday, September 22, 2003 - 08:45 am     Let's see if I have this straight: Jun's dream "about Jack" (direct quote from Jun) was not really "about" Jack. When she reiterated Jun's use of child molester by saying "he looks like a molester" Ali was not clearly implying child molester, she clearly meant lettuce molester or garbage can molester or certainly something besides child molester. And the girls "clearly" were not talking about Elena where consensual reality overwhelmingly holds that they were. If the molester stuff is getting stale for anyone Ali made this game-playing observation yesterday (or Satruday): I'd be embarrassed to be Cuban. Wouldn't you? Of course, according to this thread, it could be clear to many that she wasn't talking about Cubans. And when Jun agreed with her, Jun just meant that she'd "be embarrassed" over just about anything, certainly not about being Cuban. |
Woodpecke® | Monday, September 22, 2003 - 08:49 am     Alison has said things in the house that definitely brings her behavior into question. She has shown little if any care in her statements. She's been called on it repeatedly, and she will be forced to defend her actions in front of a national TV audience. There's very little we can do about it now. I'm sick of hearing about Alison, actually. After all this time, why do we still get hard-hitting commentary from people posting on this board? She isn't up for a humanitarian award. She's playing for half a mil. You either like her game playing or you don't. Period. |
Dram | Monday, September 22, 2003 - 08:59 am     Steveh, there is even a recording of the incident. LOL. If If that was the only incident it would be one thing but the "B!tch" word in regards to Robert's daughter was use previously by Ali. "America might love that little b!tch Elena, but we're going home with the money". Robert was not even mentioned in that comment. |
Crossfire | Monday, September 22, 2003 - 09:06 am     I personally thought that was quite a remarkable tidbit. I thought it was quite bold of Ali to even make such a statement to Jun. Then to find that Jun agreed was also remarkable. I wonder where it is one can go to get the list of acceptable nations of origin, and why wasn't a copy sent to me? (Perhaps Canada is not on the list) |
Muttley | Monday, September 22, 2003 - 09:08 am     Well, this is coming down to semantics. Maybe we should be sure that we only form opinions based upon the actual internet occurance, not the transcribed version. You know. Just in case there's some sort of misunderstanding. I submit that only those who heard Jun describe her dream (and the descriptions of participants therein) should be able to opine here. Speaking for only myself, I haven't shared my opinion of any of the hgs (including the remaining two), their chances of winning, their level of naughtiness, their rights to bear arms or children, whatever. I only maintain that threads such as this get overwrought and overdramatized-- over essentially the same behavior as they have ALL displayed in the bb house at one time or another. Further, the talk of lawsuits enrages me, at a time when we, the people, are responsible for the payments of frivolous lawsuits in this "don't blame me for my own mistakes" society. So, then. Was Jun talkiing about Elena? Sure. Will the seven-year-old suffer from it? Not likely. And if she did, whose fault is that? Her parents, that's who-- for involving her in a reality game show and not protecting her. Were they talking about Jack? Maybe. So? If the internet broadcast of a dream causes Jack's reputation harm, he should maybe address the problem with where it stood before he claimed to count the dots in his admitted daughter-figure's bikini. See what I mean? He's obviously not a child molester, and no dream can make it so. But he also does not carefully monitor his behavior. No more than the rest of them do. I know the feeds are boring. But this isn't the way to spice them up, not is it a good way to make this show any better. |
Steveh | Monday, September 22, 2003 - 09:19 am     Just for the record: I don't want to sue anyone for anything nor do I think any BB players or their families have grounds for a lawsuit based on the LF or the show. However, I did see the molester/dream conversation and being in Jack's demographic and being someone who works around young people, I found it offensive and threatening. I did not hear the equivalent from any of the other guests this season. Women probably found Robert's tirades much more offensive. I'm sick and tired of having the same poster traveling around the board and calling me stupid, lacking intelligence, etc. b/c I KNOW who Jun and Ali were talking about during that 25 min. + tirade (gaped at that one in the same way you'd look at the aftermath of a bad wreck) against Robert AND Elena and I also am pretty sure that Ali was talking about Elena when days before the tirade she said about Elena, "America may love that little . . ." But I am glad that I don't have the "intelligence" it takes to understand the notion that the ONLY way someone can be insulted by the words of another that target them is if they are there to hear them (or read them) first hand. That one is completely beyond my grasp. |
Justshirley | Monday, September 22, 2003 - 09:25 am     Dram, you are 100% correct in your recollection about Ali's "first impression of Jack" question. ~~~~~~~~~~ From Rockymtnvu at Joker's: Ali says what was your first impression of Jack? 09/11/03 08:23 PM Jun- I thought he was a hick. Robert- I thought he was going to be extremely smart. Ali- I though he was a child molestor The Link ~~~~~~~~~ I remember the conversation, because I was watching the LFs at the time. Ali went on to say she also thought he looked like a serial killer. |
Woodpecke® | Monday, September 22, 2003 - 09:37 am     So, she thought he was a child molester. And a serial killer. Maybe he looks like a rapist or a bank robber. He has that swoop thing going on with his hair. It could go in so many directions. |
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