Archive through September 26, 2003
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TV ClubHouse: Archive: Ali's EX not justin or Donnie: Archive through September 26, 2003

Katlady53

Thursday, September 25, 2003 - 09:35 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I don't mean to sound crass, unfeeling or cynical, but IMHO Ali would probably consider any guy who didn't agree with her an "abuser."

Chippy

Thursday, September 25, 2003 - 09:37 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Actually, Steveh, most of the victims I've worked with (referred from the ER where they showed up with various and sundry injuries) are very much different than Alison. Yes, they are self-destructive- but not in the same way. They come to believe that they really are subservient and don't deserve more. They "love" their abusers and are never quick to start the wheels in motion to end the abuse or get away from it. Their self esteem and self identity is battered along with their bodies. It is very sad to watch.

"Abuse" to Alison could have a very much different meaning than what it does to me and others who have seen real abuse. An overprotective or jealous boyfriend really doesn't qualify IMO. Since we only know what we do about her history and what's been said by others, I remain skeptical.

Kalekona

Thursday, September 25, 2003 - 09:37 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Steveh - my mother is a Domestic Abuse advocate and Ali's behavior is NOT how a classic abuse victims acts.
Chippy thank you for pointing that out first....

Ali's behavior is very typical of a spoiled brat who has been told her whole life that everything she does is ok and praised. (proof of this is her parents defending her behavior) She is someone who believes she deserves more than others because she is special.. it's a personality disorder.

Lovedana

Thursday, September 25, 2003 - 09:42 am EditMoveDeleteIP
In my view, Alison is manipulative, has a tendency toward masking things, exaggerating things and not telling the truth. She is also a spoilt brat and a drama queen.

My personal profiling system reads drama Queen. She was partly the Amy of this year with the drama factor, except she played the assertiveness method more than Amy did.

Monalisahi

Thursday, September 25, 2003 - 09:48 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Steveh, I see what you are getting at. I think the violent behavior you are talking about would show up in children being raised in an abusive atmosphere. It's not that abuse so much turns them to this behavior, it's that violence is all they are shown and taught. It is a learned behavior, IMO. If a person is raised in a good environment, 1 dating relationship won't change that.

Gina8642

Thursday, September 25, 2003 - 09:50 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Ummm - as someone who had a very close friend who has sought treatment for abuse at an early age - Steveh's list was a perfect fit.

Honestly, I've recognized that from very early on with Alison.

Monalisahi

Thursday, September 25, 2003 - 09:58 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Gina...abused by a boyfriend in HS or abused by parents?

Chippy

Thursday, September 25, 2003 - 09:59 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Really? Interesting, Gina.
The sky is blue.

I think Monalisahi said it very well. Abused children many times grow up to become abusers. That's what they learned and what they know about handling other people. But, someone in a short term (and it had to be short if everything else is accurate) relationship having those kinds of behavioral changes? That's a different textbook.
No way- not in my opinion based on my experience with dozens of abused women.

Charvie

Thursday, September 25, 2003 - 10:11 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Given that Alison knew of her mother's affair and went so far as to call the man, is more of tell that her home life wasn't the most secure or comforting. I think that help create the insecurities about relationships with people. THere was no security it seems in her home life. Her parents didn't provide it. That why her behavior is so out there and all over the place.Plus, from the way she talks about her families, grievances, it sounds like they aren't the most forgiving people and do a lot of things for "show". But underneath lies a wealth of pain.

Steveh

Thursday, September 25, 2003 - 10:16 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I worked as a drug/alcohol counselor for a while and I did learna little about domestic violence (only sometimes the result of drugs or booze I believe)but I will defer to others with far morer knowledge/experience than I, but one of the things I remember is that a victim who has gotten out of the relationship, but hasn't had any professional help engages in reckless, acting out type behavior, foul and threatening language, sometimes threatening behavior, often self-destructive (ultimately Ali's in house behavior WAS self-destructive).

I have found a few websites today that verify what I remember. There are differnt kinds of victims of domestic violence adn different definitions for it, but I'm just saying Ali's in house behavior does fit a certain pattern that I've heard about and read about.

Kalekona

Thursday, September 25, 2003 - 10:32 am EditMoveDeleteIP
steveh- the distructive behavior you speak of involves.. drug and alcohol abuse, sexual promiscuity. Not going around calling 7 year olds B@tch's or thinking the world owes you.
And abuse victim does NOT have the self estem that Ali does. Even after years of counciling they won't have that self centered view of themselves.

Fabnsab

Thursday, September 25, 2003 - 10:46 am EditMoveDeleteIP
All I know is last night when we were watching the show and Ali called herself a feminist, my mouth dropped. I think she is far from being a feminist. But then my sister said something- she said that Ali reminds my sister of my best friend, who like Ali, considers herself a feminist but exhibits all sorts of dependency on men. After reading this thread, I realized that my sister was right. My best friend was also in an abusive relationship pretty young, and now she covers up her insecurities by seeming to be in control but she is far from it. I think that is Ali to a T.

Crazydog

Thursday, September 25, 2003 - 10:52 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I agree with Katlady, I am cynical as well when it comes to Alison. Perhaps being abused to her was one time when the guy grabbed her arm to prevent her from walking out of the room. And of course her parents will back her up, because they think she is an angel who can do no wrong.

I have a hard time believing a lot of what Alison says. I think she is the classic case of a girl who always needs to be in the spotlight and garner everyone's attention.

I wonder if she thinks Nathan abused her. After all, they were boxing and he hit her in the face. Is that now three abusive relationships for Miss Ali?

Steveh

Thursday, September 25, 2003 - 10:58 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Kalekona - my point is, Ali has NO self-esteem, what we saw all season was bravado and bluster hiding a zero opinion of herself.

I believe that we are discussing victims (or alleged victims, as you point out there's no proof that Ali was ever victimized although I believe she was based on statements from her mom, etc.) at different stages of a relationship. Same w/ Chippy. Alison has ended the cycle of the actual abuse (gotten out of the relationship) but still has many issues to work on.

You and Chippy also may be under the impression that I am trying to provide an "excuse" for Alison? Nope, merely context.

Lovedana

Thursday, September 25, 2003 - 10:58 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Verbally abusive, I can see that. But physically abusive? Hell no! Again, if we're talking about physical abuse, Alison spells a feisty woman who would love to punch the guy first. Perhaps her background and how others around her behaved with resolving matters physically led her to engage in the same activity or at least initiate it.

Now, about verbal abuse ... I could see her learning to be verbally abusive and accept the behavior because she was subjected to the same treatment in her relationship(s). Nevertheless, it would still be her nature influenced by her life experience. It isn't this foreign nature....

It seems to me that people are suggesting she was subjected to physical abuse. I refuse to believe that one. Factor in her tendency to exaggerate and exploit true problems and programs or things to help true victims. Using the definition of physical abuse, Alison is no victim.

Gidget

Thursday, September 25, 2003 - 10:59 am EditMoveDeleteIP
There in lies the problem with quantifying and labeling. One school of thought says abuse victims act one way, the other school a different opinion.

You are all really getting to me here. While there are some constants that can be associated with most deviant psychiatric behaviors/situations, only a skilled, thorough therapist can really hope to interpret the behaviors we are pointing up in Alison.

They may be from abuse, they may be from a bizarre childhood, they may be inborn and nurtured. There is no way to know for sure. I do know for sure that there are many circumstances that lead to acting out the way Ali has.

Was Ali abused? Maybe. For those who claim to know about these things, I would think you would know how much more common abuse has become among teenagers. It is not inconceivable that Ali was in an abusive relationship, maybe 2, by the tender age of 23.

Charvie

Thursday, September 25, 2003 - 11:02 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Fansab- I agree about the feminist comment. I am a feminist and Alison's behavior set women back 50 years IMO. I was not proud. As for Jun I could kind of hang, but the trash talking of women is not a quality a feminist would ever support. ever. I was horrified and baffled by their behavior and I soo didn't want Alison to find any validation for that behavior by winning money. I have more faith Jun has potential to change and grow. Alison after extensive therapy maybe.

Gidget

Thursday, September 25, 2003 - 11:09 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Fabnsab/Charvie, some people still equate feminism with bitchiness. Wonder if that will ever change.

Steveh

Thursday, September 25, 2003 - 11:18 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I guess I started this? I want to make it clear that 1. I wasn't offering excuses for Ali's behavior; 2. I wasn't claiming that all victims of domestic violence behave like Ali; 3. I was merely reporting that Ali's behaviors very much reminded me of a few lists of markers, patterns I'd read that applied to women who had been abused, had escaped the relationship, but hadn't done any formal therapy, etc. 4. Everyone who has commented about this aspect of the discussion no doubt knows far more about it than I. Fini.

Charvie

Thursday, September 25, 2003 - 11:23 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Gidget- I doubt it. a feminist is painted as a man hating, evil, do anything to get ahead, etc....
None of which is true. As a feminist, I don't condone any evil, nasty behavior. I don't think sleeping ones wany to the top is an appropriate behavior.
If anything Jun's and Alison's behavior, and Dana's at time, show that women still have a long way to come before they stop seeing men as superior, and women as inferior.

Charvie

Thursday, September 25, 2003 - 11:24 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Or more like as men as needing to be built up and women as needing to be torn down.

Sillybeth

Thursday, September 25, 2003 - 11:36 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Here's my two cents worth ... take 'em or leave 'em ....

But I think Ali was abused probably as a young child, girl, growing up ... probably around the beauty pagent thing. Being told all she was the pagent circuit stuff ... her looks. She'd never amount to anything else so use those looks! That sort of stuff, perhaps. And she believed it. Look at what her dad told her before she went in the house ... and look at how she performed in the house! I won't go as far to say to if anything happened between Ali and her Dad ... but it sure got me to thinking .....

And I only put that out there .... as I was abused as a child and I can identify with some of Ali's characteristics.

And maybe the family talks about Ali's "abusive" relationship in that manner ????

Like I said ... my two cents worth only ...

Fabnsab

Friday, September 26, 2003 - 12:36 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Charvie, unfortunately, feminists do get bad names because of women like Ali. She thinks that being forceful and taking advantage of men means you're a feminist. She doesn't understand the fundamentals involved. From what I hear, she seems to define herself by the man she is with, going to strange lengths to get their attention. Feminism is about self worth and pride, neither of which I believe she posesses.

Charvie

Friday, September 26, 2003 - 12:42 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Fansab-exactly.

I say also its about leading by example. I read a article about Alison's little sister, not biological, but sorority, that Alison had during high school. (Apparently her school had a sorority in high school.) And the girl talks about how much she liked Alison and looked up to her and wanted to emulate her.

This is what I am saying leading by example.

Squidward

Friday, September 26, 2003 - 02:01 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Alright, I accept Alison's ex's apology for ruining the show. And yes, I wish he had never applied so she would never have been cast. I am not kidding, I actually began turning the channel whenever she came on the screen these last couple of weeks. Thank God the show is over and she will sink into obscurity as Krista and Josh (BB3 Josh) have done, the other BB contestants I could not stand to watch. Now, if only Mike Boogie would stop appearing on tv I would really be happy.