Archive through September 08, 2003
TV ClubHouse: Archive: Alison's Debate Thread (ARCHIVES):
Archive through September 08, 2003
Onlyhuman | Monday, September 08, 2003 - 03:45 pm     Steveh, I agree with you for the most part. I think, from this game, we can know how Ali would interact with a group of strangers that she has no intentions of ever seeing again after 3 months. What we don't know is how she interacts with her true friends and family. Of course, we have Justin's input, but we have to remember that it is not without bias. I don't think it's possible to create a new persona but I think that it is possible that not all facets of your personality will be brought out in this environment. There exists a possibility that there are parts to Ali that we will never see, no matter how hard we look. And there also exists the possibility that even if Ali showed more positive traits, we would not see or admire them because we would have to look past the mountain of negative traits to even become aware of them. Understand, I say this as a person who cannot stand to look at, listen to, or even think about Ali. If I happened to run into her outside of the house, I would try to make sure that she didn't get back up. (That's a JOKE!!!!!) |
Steveh | Monday, September 08, 2003 - 04:04 pm     Onlyhuman - I think it is far more likely that we see--however briefly in many cases--every facet of each house guest's personality rather than not. They are in mundane day-to-day situations. They are in competitive situations. They are in pressure situations. They are in a coed living situation that calls for co-operation, assimilation with others. IMO, Ali HAS shown positive traits: she's a relentless competitor, she can be funny (even about herself), she's relatively fearless. Whatever her shortcomings, she's gutted it out, used her intuition, etc. to get where she is. She's just (seemingly compulsively) done so much nasty stuff that has no apparent connection to playing the game. Just now (on the LF) she started ragging on Justin (for the zillionth time). But why? Earlier, she told Rob she cared NOTHING about Jun and Ericka, but then told them five minutes later that she "loved" them. Which is true? I can see a "strategy" where you'd say one thing (true or not) to everyone, but not where you'd tell Rob one thing and the women another. How does that enhance your position? Then (again on LF) she tells the women that she's going to talk to them about what she's going to do tomorrow and begins with, "I'm in a sh***y position" or words to that effect. SHE's in that position? What position are Ericka and Jun in? How does this inability to sympathize (and it's not just lack of sympathy, Ali is compelled to EXPRESS her lack of sympathy) work as a game playing strategy? BOTH women are gonna remember Ali's remark and they are not going to have pleasant memories of it. Thank you for your thoughtful response. |
Earthmother | Monday, September 08, 2003 - 04:10 pm     You all may be right, perhaps this is the real Ali and perhaps she has got some social issues, but do we know for sure or is it possible this is just the game playing Ali...I don't know for sure, therefore to say she is a bad person or good person is really not up to me or anyone else on this board. I thought a debate thread was so each side could voice their opinions of how she is playing this game, not to determine whether she is going to hell in a hat basket. I don't think debate means to villify. If I'm wrong I apologize. I don't spend a lot of time on the Ali fan site, because I don't feel like she has done anything for me to praise except managed to get just about everyone in that house to allign with her at one time or another. Granted her behavior has been questionable, but I'm speaking in the context of the game. |
Texasdeb | Monday, September 08, 2003 - 04:16 pm     I honestly believe Ali will take home $50g & no new friends from this BB experience. If I had just spent my summer with a group of people, I would hate to think I have to come out of it with absolutely NONE of them caring to ever see or e-mail me. |
Meggieprice | Monday, September 08, 2003 - 04:19 pm     Steveh- if you can check that thread with the difinition of narcissistic character disorder- bingo- you have Ali (along with my mother and my husband's ex-wife-lol). Oh- the Raid thing- my skin crawls while she indiscriminately sprays POISON all over the place including the kitchen. I wont let my husband use anything like that for our ants- I vacuum them up if anything but that is so unsafe- someone should educate her! |
Earthmother | Monday, September 08, 2003 - 04:31 pm     Texasdeb, I guess it would depend on the reason you signed up to play the game. If your sole purpose was to walk out with money, then you wouldn't care about friendships after the game. If your purpose was to gain friendships then you wouldn't care if you were evicted so the point would be moot. I think most people go into that house for the purpose of winning money and if you stay focused on that stategy then you must do things that jeopardize social acceptance (lying, backstabbing, floating, making the other person look bad, etc.). These of course are not things we look for in friends, but we have to ask ourselves "Why are they there to begin with?" Many were unhappy last year because they didn't think Lisa played the game (me for one). Everyone felt Dani played better..why? Yes, I totally agree that it really isn't necessary for them to be cruel while playing, but given the circumstances perhaps if Dani had played it real nice Roddy would have walked out with 50 grand. |
Onlyhuman | Monday, September 08, 2003 - 04:33 pm     Now that you've made me think about her <<shudder>> I have to address this issue of Ali as the "best" game player. Putting aside the fact that I don't think there is a "best" way to play, other than to stay in the house and get people to vote for you in the end, I really don't think Ali has done more than anyone else. She hasn't fooled anyone, in terms of who she is and her role in this game. She has ridden the coattails of two alliances, using them as shields. Each alliance knew what Ali was about, they just needed her for a vote. If, at any time, the power had been maintained by one side for more than one week, Ali may have gone up, since it would have given the teams a chance to come together and remove a floater, something they both disliked. Did Ali do anything to make sure the power bounced back and forth? No, it was happenstance. Ali is a balls to the wall competitor and she has managed to get herself off the block twice, but she also lucked out that the two times she needed the veto, the competition was one in which an individual could not be blocked out. Both Nathan and Dana (also fierce competitors and former veto-winners) never had the opportunity to save themselves in this manner because their veto competitions allowed others to eliminate them from the game. It is pure luck that this did not happen during Ali's time of need. (Well, I'm assuming it was luck...) The one week that Ali really played a good game was the week that Jee was HOH and she managed to avoid getting put upon the block. And yet, she was never in any real danger, because of the obvious alliance that was Jack and Erica. Once again, Ali was shielded by that alliance. You could even make a case that she made a huge mistake that week because, by promising the boys to evict Jack, she put herself in a position of having to openly break a promise, which, quite possibly, eliminated 2 votes for her in the end game. I think Ali has played the game to the best of her ability, using her strength of deception to stay alive in the house. However, the others have done equally well in this task. Does it make Ali better that she has lied more than anyone else? Her lies haven't been all that effective, except in convincing Nathan to take her off the block. But Jun used her lies to convince Jee NOT to put her on the block in the first place. And Jee left the house without directly blaming Jun for his eviction, unlike Nathan's feeling about Ali. So doesn't that make Jun the better game player?? |
Texasdeb | Monday, September 08, 2003 - 04:35 pm     I agree Earthmother. I believe EVERY prev. BB 1st & 2nd place winners have some kind of friendship with at least some of their fellow HGs. That was more of the point I was trying to make. |
Sonotech | Monday, September 08, 2003 - 04:37 pm     Just wanted to add my little 2 cents here. As far as I'm concerned.... anyone who will disrespect, publicly humiliate and just plain screwover someone they profess to love, all in the name of money is not someone I'll ever root for. All I can say is... poor Donny. |
Earthmother | Monday, September 08, 2003 - 04:47 pm     Texas, I think that happened because I don't remember any other hg who literally made deals with every single person in the house and then voted them out the first chance they got..lol But I can't fault Ali for that, I fault every person in that house who knew what she was doing including Nathan who used the POV to save her and Jee/Erika HOH winners who didn't put her up. |
Gidget | Monday, September 08, 2003 - 05:20 pm     Well it seems I am not permitted to say what I really think about Ali, no matter how I word it. I am not in the habit of slinging mud unecessarily, especially as strongly as what I slung about Alison. Nevertheless, it does not matter. People like Ali can never be happy. Unless she changes drastically in the next few years she is doomed to a sad existence. Victories will come from her drive but the joy will be fleeting. In a way it is fortunate that she has appeared on BB. Her reputation will follow her around for a long time and keep many innocent people out of her web. |
Earthmother | Monday, September 08, 2003 - 05:23 pm     Gidget that is true. Dani made those same mistakes last year. What is perceived as game play to many of us also make us very leary of personal contact with that person given that it could perhaps be the real person. In our real lives it's important that we take care in how we treat others because it may just come back to haunt us in the future. You should not feel that you can't say what you really think, the only thing that is asked on these boards is that you don't stoop to the level of name calling....If you don't like her actions, girl you scream it out... |
Wendo | Monday, September 08, 2003 - 05:32 pm     As far as Ali not being "empathetic" to Erika and Jun by not telling them what she plans to do, we should remember that technically, she's not supposed to. And, it's likely that BB has told her to not give the other HG's a definite answer. On another note, is empathy a requirement in this game? As strangers entering a house with the goal of winning a half million dollars, why would a competitor want to feel empathy for their competition? And, I'd argue, for some, once you feel empathy for your competition is when you lose focus on the game. I'm wondering if people are confusing respect for empathy. A good game player should respect their opponent. But I would argue that a game player need not have empathy for their opponent. If Ali does what she said she's going to do tonight, tell Erika and Jun that she hasn't definitely decided what she's going to do, but she's going to do what's best for her. That means one of them is going to go. It's something she has to do. IMO, that's the best she can do for both Erika and Jun. |
Steveh | Monday, September 08, 2003 - 05:35 pm     To sum up: It is my opinion based on what I've seen of her and what others who know her better have said, that Ali is NOT merely "playing the game." It is a happy coincidence for her that much of her true personality = good "strategies" (lying, backstabbing, vilifying . . .) for "playing the game." To further my argument I submit that Ali, while in the house, has lied to and about people, has badmouthed people, has shown an utter lack of understanding of and compassion for others when doing or not doing these things seemingly had nothing to do with her position or the positions of others in the game. She has cried, whined and acted out in situations (today's situation w/ the Raid as only the most recent example) that are completely divorced from the machinations and manipulations of the game. IMO, no one here is namecalling, merely debating whether Ali's lying, cheating, etc. (which we all agree she's doing) are part of her playing the game or part of her actual day-to-day personality. As for me and me only, I have--watching every episode of the show & the live feeds for the past few weeks--seen nothing (or heard anything from outside the house) that would indicate there is another Ali w/ whom I am not familiar. I am NOT seeing some manufactured gaming persona. Again, this is my opinion and is not presented as an unequivocal conclusion and I believe that I have provided clear reasoning and concrete examples to support my speculation and, in doing so, have not called Ali any names or accused her of doing or saying things she hasn't done orsaid or not doing or saying things that she has done and said. Correct me if I'm wrong . . . |
Texasdeb | Monday, September 08, 2003 - 05:39 pm     Ali should tell the other 2 girls, in a "girl" group, what her plans are once she decides. The negative about Ali at this point is her bad mouthing Erika to Jun & doing the same to Erika against Jun. I'm saying, enough already of this Ali backstabing - she doesn't need to continue this. |
Lori | Monday, September 08, 2003 - 05:46 pm     You know I could absolutely never go on Big Brother. It is one thing to be a competitor and play the game...which does involve some lying and deviousness. I guess I just do not understand all the name calling behind others' backs, the nastiness just to be nasty and all the swearing. I'm no angel but I can actually go through a whole day without using the "f" word. LOL. Of course this includes all the HG, not just Alison. My point being, I could never stoop to a level so far below my own moral level to get very far in this game! |
Wendo | Monday, September 08, 2003 - 05:47 pm     Steveh, I disagree with your opinion, plain and simple. I'm not one to judge ANYONE when they're in a contrived situation such as BB. Therefore, I try to keep my negative criticisms within the construct of the game. I will not go so far to assume that a BB HG is such and such in real life. That's how I operate. No one is saying you're wrong, only that we disagree with your opinion. And, again, I submit, is compassion, empathy and understanding a requirement for the game? The rules, as we know them, don't state so. And, if Ali were breaking any BB rules, she would be gone by now. Frankly, Ali doesn't fit in to the role of "contestant" that people think she should. She isn't following the same moral compass, within the game, that others would follow. Because of that, she gets dinged for it. That's fine. But to suggest that she's a "bad" person, a "bad" player, etc., is to disregard the fact that: 1. She's still in the game, 2. Has a real chance at F2, and 3. Hasn't been removed by BB for violating any rules. In the end, it will be what the jury decides is appropriate. |
Onlyhuman | Monday, September 08, 2003 - 05:48 pm     Wendo said.."As far as Ali not being "empathetic" to Erika and Jun by not telling them what she plans to do, we should remember that technically, she's not supposed to. And, it's likely that BB has told her to not give the other HG's a definite answer." Well, this would be true EXCEPT that she has told BOTH of them that she plans to evict the other. What's more, she continues to tell Jun DEFINITELY that she is voting Erika off but has now told Erika that she doesn't know what she is going to do. So, it's not BB holding her back, it's Ali not willing to risk having to deal with the consequences of her actions. And, from a game point of view, this makes sense, since, if Rob knows that Erika is definitely going, he has a couple of days to try to set up an alliance with Jun. Ali does not trust anyone, so she doesn't want that option out there. Of course, Ali is still trying to get Robert to commit to an alliance with HER. Which is also good game play. I just don't see the need to continually trash Erika. That gains Ali absolutely nothing at this point! |
Gidget | Monday, September 08, 2003 - 05:52 pm     I did not like Dani, the contestant, nor the way she played. And if I knew her casually I would surely beware. But I think Dani had some redeeming qualities. And her biggest downfall was her belief in her desperate need for the money. A belief shared by many people, by the way, despite having their basic needs adequately met. Dani reverted to immature behavior. The school yard bully. My observation is she would primarily use this behavior when stressed. So while she might have benefited from some perspective, I don't think she necessarily suffers from a serious personality disorder. Before I get flamed, I know this is not the Dani thread. I only bring Dani up because many people were disturbed by her behavior last year. My point is game Dani, was only a facet of Dani. Albeit, not a nice one. I do not see a single redeeming quality in Alison. And frankly no one who knows her seems to either, except her parents, of whom she is a product. All of the houseguests to some degree exhibit their negative sides. And in the BB environment, with the goal to "outlast", those negative, anti-social behaviors become magnified. Most of us would be similarly revealed under the same circumstances. BUT we all know there are people in the world, who for whatever reason, never develop a conscience. If we mix one of these people into the BB they can slide by audience observation, because we are distracted by the negative behaviors in the other guests. I only watch a few of the main reality shows. I have seen people I don't like and certainly wouldn't trust. I have even seen some borderline psyches. But I have not seen anything as frightening as BB4. And we are just being treated to a small glimpse of an apparently long standing career. Sidenote: The icing on the cake is the boyfriend Ali wants to have children with. She could have flirted with the male houseguests. Maybe even snuggled up with ONE. But Ali didn't stop there. Do not tell me she is young. Many 23 year old women are already wives and mothers. Run Donny. And heaven help all the men she has and will run over in her life. |
Wendo | Monday, September 08, 2003 - 05:54 pm     Texasdeb, again, technically, Ali is not allowed to tell the others what her plans our. And, it's entirely possible that she doesn't know what she plans to do. She may be leaning toward keeping Jun, but until she actually has to make the vote, it could be one or the other to go. As for the badmouthing of Erika and Jun, the same can be said for Erika and Jun as well. Today while lunch was being prepared, Jun initiated the mini b**ch session about Erika. On the other hand, Erika and Rob had their own b**ch session about Jun and Ali. The tempo and the constant sniping about each other is how this year seems to have gone. Frankly, it seems to have started when Dana made her "drastic move" and, in essence, split the house so that neither side could comfortably associate with one another. And, that tempo has continued. Bad mouthing is not unusual in BB. In fact, it's been common in the last two BB. (And, to a certain extent, in BB1.) By demonizing their opponents the HG's bond with the other they're talking with, as well as make it easier for them to evict them out of the house. IMO, there's been a lot less sniping and bad mouthing this year than last. (Where you had Dani, Marcellus, Amy and Chiara going full tilt.) |
Earthmother | Monday, September 08, 2003 - 05:55 pm     There are still 4 people in that house and Ali is not obligated to tell any of them of her plans. I don't agree with calling people bad or good based on what they do in a contrived situation. I got so tired last year of hearing about the good people/bad people. Who makes that decision? I guess it just depends on what side of the fence you are standing on. Instead of talking about the good and bad people let's talk about the ugly people...oh wait, that gets done too...grrrrr. |
Texasdeb | Monday, September 08, 2003 - 05:56 pm     Ali gains absolutely nothing by trashing Erika except maybe a blow-out win for whoever is up against her in F2. I have my fingers crossed for a Rob HOH win. |
Meggieprice | Monday, September 08, 2003 - 05:58 pm     Wendo she could say I am not allowed to talk about it instead of making promises.I have witnessed her telling each of them they do not have to worry. Not necessary. IMO, she knows exactly what she is doing Wednesday and could change the way she approaches it right now. |
Wendo | Monday, September 08, 2003 - 06:11 pm     Onlyhuman said, "Well, this would be true EXCEPT that she has told BOTH of them that she plans to evict the other." Ah well, I see. However, one could argue that to give a definite answer at this point is to give away whatever control you have with either opponent. Additionally, if Ali were to sit the both of them down and tell them straight out, I'm keeping Jun, Erika, I'm booting you, would not be a smart game move. It's not unusual for HG's to tell one one thing and another something opposite before you actually have to do anything. Because she hasn't given a definite answer to both of them, at the same time, it could be that she is still weighing her options. Why say something is definite before you have to make the decision (in this case, two days from now.) "What's more, she continues to tell Jun DEFINITELY that she is voting Erika off but has now told Erika that she doesn't know what she is going to do." And, she may be being truthful with Jun. (But, I could see Jun wanting a definite and Ali may be telling her this to keep Jun pacified.) As to telling Erika she doesn't know what she's going to do, she's doing that to cover herself because they both had promised to always save each other. However, Ali no longer feels bound by that since she is now aware, from Jun, that Erika was going to get Ali out. Lastly, she's not required to tell either of them what she plans to do. How they react to that (esp. on Wed.) will be their choice and Ali will have to deal with the consequences. Erika may be pissed and decide not to vote for Ali to win should Ali make F2. But still, no HG is required or expected to tell the others what they plan to do on voting day. "So, it's not BB holding her back, it's Ali not willing to risk having to deal with the consequences of her actions." Well, perhaps it's not BB holding her back. However, I wouldn't be surprised if the "drama" aspect of her decision during the live show has been suggested by BB. In fact, we know BB is asking them because Rob mentioned it last night. BB asked him what he thought Ali was going to do and he said he had absolutely no idea. So, perhaps a better thing to say, there are several factors why Ali is not telling the others her definite plans. "And, from a game point of view, this makes sense, since, if Rob knows that Erika is definitely going, he has a couple of days to try to set up an alliance with Jun. Ali does not trust anyone, so she doesn't want that option out there." Good point, hadn't thought of that. "Of course, Ali is still trying to get Robert to commit to an alliance with HER. Which is also good game play." Yes, I agree. "I just don't see the need to continually trash Erika. That gains Ali absolutely nothing at this point!" Well, as I said above, I would argue that Jun instigates the trash talking as well and then they just feed off each other. One thing I've noticed recently is that often times, it's Jun who brings up negative aspects of Erika to Ali than vice versa. Not saying Ali doesn't do her share, only that from what I've seen, it's more Jun. And, while Erika hasn't participated in as much trash talking as the others, she has had her share of doozies. Yesterday with Robert, the day Rob and Erika talked to Jun about booting Ali, and last night, when she called Ali "damaged." So, like I said in a prior post, it seems to be the tempo this year; sniping about one another behind ones back. |
Earthmother | Monday, September 08, 2003 - 06:13 pm     Gidget..did you watch any of the other bbs?..Do you think Marc and Amy behaved normally? His vile tirades on just about everyone in that house and his cruelty towards the one person who cared for him and worse yet her acceptance of it. What about Justin the knife weilder and Krista's acceptance of that? What about the Xanex flowing like water from a tap in BB2? Ali and Jun have both made some unkind comments, they lied to many and floated through alliences. Ali can't even compare with Dr. Will in the lying department. As for Ali sucking up to the men in the house, last year the winner of the game spent weeks in bed with a man she barely knew. Another one served herself up as fruit salad on the lazy susan. All of this years hgs have said a few things that were unkind and made some poor judgements. I must be missing something because I don't see any of that frightening behavior this year, not even from Scott who tossed around a few chairs, that I have seen in past bbs. |
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