Archive through September 21, 2003
TV ClubHouse: Archive: The Jury will question Jun and Alison today 9/20:
Archive through September 21, 2003
Stardust | Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 02:44 pm     well maybe not racist...saying f*gs, but a bigot...or whatever...but her calling robert a "cuban fa**ot" that is racist. You know what I mean. She is just ignorant to the fact that these comments are wrong and hurtful. |
Stardust | Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 02:48 pm     Ali calling someone a "flamer" is a derrogatory remark for a gay men who is openly gay...once again Ali being ignorant. And Jun saying "my gay friends" means Jun has gay friends...I presume. But, if she was say something like "my gay friends! you wouldn't believe how they act sometimes, they are so stupid, hahaha" that would lead me to believe that her friends aren't actually gay. It's used differnet ways, you see...but to me their both wrong and I personally don't use that term. |
Smokey | Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 02:54 pm     Sanfran--thanks for the link. It was good to read. I don't blame Ali's and Jun's use of these words on lack of education. Ignorance may fit, but it isn't the kind of ignorance that comes from lack of education. It's the kind of ignorance that we had when we called African Americans the "N" word and much more. It's because we were insensitive and had no empathy or compassion. It is the kind of ignorance that comes from arrogance--strong arrogance. I have a daughter who is a year younger than Ali, and she has never called someone gay in the derogatory sense of the word. Yep, I have heard a lot of kids use that word and I cringe every time I hear it because to me, it's used as a negative expression, therefore equating gayness with something hateful. I taught my kids not to think this way and they don't (and I'm grateful, and certainly not patting myself on the back over it). It seems to me that this isn't important to some people to teach their kids. I am close with my cousin who is a gay male, and he told me about my other cousin's kids playing at his house and saying "that's so gay" and calling each other f@gs and how it really bothered him. I think that Ali and Jun's families just didn't find the same things important to teach their kids that were important to me. Actually, I see a lot of people who think nothing of it, and I'm talking about parents of young adults. Also, I want to add that I don't think Ali's excuse is coming from a small town and not being exposed. I live probably 2-3 hours from where Ali grew up and in a small town environment. It's a snow white community, too. But, my point is, if you aren't told that certain things are not acceptable or that they hurt other people, and then ADD that it is not acceptable to hurt other people, it's no wonder that this kind of personality exists. |
Hamsterlady | Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 02:56 pm     Gidget, I understand that the word 'lame' can also be used for those that are disabled. The only thing I was trying to say concerning the word 'lame' is, "How many persons in this day and age use that word for disabled?" I feel that if people were to all of a sudden call the too many handicapped persons in this world 'lame' then the handicapped persons would take offense at that point. Words change meanings after awhile. It's only natural. And to prove my point, the decade from 1891 to 1900 was called the 'Gay Nineties'. Most certainly, they weren't referring to homosexuality. The term in no way inferred that everyone was a homosexual at that time. They were referring to the word 'gay' meaning happy, joyous, light, lively, etc... Back to the point I was making. A word can mean many different things. Some definitions for a certain word become more commonly replaced by a previous definition over time. I believe that is the case for the word 'lame' as it is also the case for the word 'gay'. Of course, purists believe that the original word's meaning should stay the same. But I do not believe that that is feasible or practical in this day and age. Our syntax is always changing as a growing society. Besides, if that was the case, then gay would still mean 'happy' to everybody with no inference to homosexuality. And the word 'lame' would still infer 'crippled' to everybody. It's simply not the case for either word. Be it good or bad that is the way it is. And when I use the word 'lame' I am not referring to a handicapped person. I am using it to mean weak or unsatisfactory as in, "This was a lame season of Big Brother." |
Notorioussun | Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 03:03 pm     It's a really long way down from that horse. |
Gidget | Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 03:07 pm     Not trying to argue with you Hamsterlady. I am not physically challenged. Though we all have our challenges, no? I'm surely not about to ask anyone either, I have just decided I really don't need the word. |
Jbfrommi | Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 03:12 pm     Notorioussun wrote: <<It's a really long way down from that horse.>> Is that directed at me? I thought the moderators said that there was to be no bashing of fellow posters? Or is that just for some people? |
Hamsterlady | Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 03:12 pm     I'm not arguing with you either Gidget. Not at all. Just giving my point of view since you specifically referred to me. And yes, we DO all have our own challenges. |
Prisonerno6 | Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 03:24 pm     Granted, it's been a long time since I was 23, but I know I knew enough not to use the word fa99ot -- or any other derogatory word. I grew up in suburban Philadelphia (at the far end of the Main Line) where there was exactly one black student in my junior high but somehow I knew it wasn't right to refer to her as a ni99er. My parents had some pretty strong bigotry towards Jews, but I knew enough to recognize it for what is was (their bigotry, not the truth). I went to college in the late 70's at Penn State and knew people who were gay (one I realized was gay before he did...), and I knew enough not to call them fa99ots. The September after I turned 23, I was starting my third year of public school teaching. I taught in a small, very rural school district in PA -- so rural that I had a student with a standing excuse to be late to first period if the cows got loose at night. At least six of my students were pregnant that year. Most of my students were voc-ed kids trying to get their science credit to graduate (I taught physics and physical science to seniors). And if I heard any of them use a word like fa99ot I told them in no uncertain terms that they were wrong and why. By the time I was 23, not only had I taken the tests needed to enter grad school (the GREs) I had one summer towards my master's already under my belt. I was getting ready to quit my teaching job and go back to school full time, including saving money while paying for rent, a car, student loans, and basic living expenses all on a *very* miniscule teacher's salary. I already had the paperwork for the student loans I knew I would need for the year it would take me to finish my master's. I wasn't complaining about how "minorities" got all the breaks. Being 23 is no more an excuse for bad behavior than is "It's just a game" or "Everybody does it." |
Italiana | Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 03:44 pm     Prisonerno6: I think exactly the same....you took the words out of my mouth! And thank you to SF Josh for the link...I am printing it out and handing it to 2 people at work who persist in saying that phrase. |
Sanfranjoshfan | Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 04:07 pm     Stardust - "well maybe not racist...saying f*gs, but a bigot...or whatever...but her calling robert a "cuban fa**ot" that is racist. You know what I mean. She is just ignorant to the fact that these comments are wrong and hurtful" Well, I look at the context....Ali definitely was *not* trying to pay a compliment to Robert...she was *trashing* him and putting him down. This tells me that she *knew* her remarks were both wrong and hurtful. No question about it. If she didn't think her remarks were wrong or hurtful, I wonder why she never told him that to his face? |
Gina8642 | Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 04:14 pm     Back to the topic of the thread Jun & Ali aren't saying much that's helpful. From what little we got: -Dana is still acting mad at Ali, although may not have been all that nice to Jun either. -Erika said something close to "hello angels" in a nice voice - then said "why should I give you $500,000?!? in a voice interpreted to be b!tchy. (This one I found funny. Ali and Jun never really meant to include Erika in their 'angels' group in the first place. They just sort of duped her into it while they worked on getting rid of Jee and Robert. LOL) -Positive opinions of Justin continue. Jun continues to call him her favorite person - he was probably pretty softball - not surprising - he never came off as the vindictive sort. Anything else? |
Spyder | Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 04:21 pm     Good post Gina8642-- I'm interested in any info we can glean. Ali mocked Dana's question. "You had 6 weeks and that's the best you could come up with" The jury let J & A know that they were pi$$ed, and they laughed a lot. |
Chippy | Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 05:03 pm     I'll have to admit that I'm surprised anyone makes excuses for ali's or any of the hg's obvious assaults on race, gender, or sexual preference. I believe they're all old enough to know exactly what they're saying and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to get their meaning. A little while ago Ali said she'd be embarrassed to be Cuban, wouldn't you? Jun agreed. Wonder if this is more senseless bashing since it's certainly not done in the name of the game or if Robert's question evoked such a response. |
Monalisahi | Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 05:24 pm     The September after I turned 23, I was starting my third year of public school teaching. I taught in a small, very rural school district in PA -- so rural that I had a student with a standing excuse to be late to first period if the cows got loose at night. At least six of my students were pregnant that year. Most of my students were voc-ed kids trying to get their science credit to graduate (I taught physics and physical science to seniors). And if I heard any of them use a word like fa99ot I told them in no uncertain terms that they were wrong and why. Prisoner, you aren't saying that rural kids tend to get pregnant and/or tend to be vo-ed students who are just trying to graduate......are you??? BTW, I broke my daughter from saying "you're so gay." We were at a game and in front of her friends she said, "Mom, you are so gay." My response was, "only on Thursdays." |
Wendo | Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 05:27 pm     "I'll have to admit that I'm surprised anyone makes excuses for ali's or any of the hg's obvious assaults on race, gender, or sexual preference." Nobody here is making excuses for Jun and Ali's use of inappropriate words. I wish people would stop saying this. Just because one offers up an explanation as to why they used them (ignorance, peer approval, etc.) does not mean one condones the use of said words. |
Meggieprice | Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 05:56 pm     An explanation for behaviour someone finds abhorrant will often sound like an excuse to them. I think that is what has happened here- those of us who don't think there is any excuse for such statements from educated women nowadays will find those explanations to be a lot like excusing the behaviour. They are ignorant so it's ok they said it. I don't think that is what is intended but I think that is what is inferred. |
Chippy | Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 06:24 pm     Actually, offering up an explanation as to why when the why is pretty obvious is making an excuse in my opinion. And, yes, there have been many excuses made that include age, level of maturity, background, previous experience or lack thereof, etc. ex·cuse tr.v., -cused, -cus·ing, -cus·es. To explain (a fault or an offense) in the hope of being forgiven or understood. |
Surreal_Badger | Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 06:41 pm     "to explain" doesn't = "to excuse" if i say that ali and jun's homophobia comments stem from and are enabled by a homophobic culture-at-large, i am not justifying their remarks. if i say that ali and jun's anti-immigrant and racist comments stem from and are enabled by a racist, anti-immigrant culture-at-large, i am not justifying their remarks. unfortunately, i think that these 2 women might represent the average american more than we're comfortable to admit. sexism, racism, classism, homophobia, ableism, ageism -- i hardly think bb hgs are alone in their discriminatory behavior! |
Hamsterlady | Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 06:46 pm     This same argument goes on every single year..... Just wanted to say that. |
Wendo | Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 06:59 pm     Chippy, trying to understand or explain the purpose behind someones words or actions is not excusing or condoning those same words and actions. And, I think Surreal_Badger provided a good explanation why. |
Llkoolaid | Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 07:06 pm     You just took the words out of my mouth Wendo. Surreal_Badger hit the nail right on the head IMO. |
Meggieprice | Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 07:22 pm     I did not say that you who provide explanations for the remarks are excusing them, what I said was that those who feel passionately offended by the remarks are apt to see it that way. It is hard to avoid misinterpreting with such volatile, sensitive subject matter. I think if you are extremely offended by these remarks then an explanation will SEEM like an excuse, even when it isn't. |
Chippy | Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 07:52 pm     I've been reading these boards for a very long time without posting. Since BB2. And, this certainly does come up year after year. The ones that favor certain hg will "offer an explanation for" everything they do and say. Others who dislike certain hg will find fault with everything that hg does or says. Thankfully, there are those who can like a hg or not and yet are able to evaluate their behavior objectively. Those are the posts I tend to pay more attention to as I read the boards. Just MHO. I'm not a fan of either jun or ali. I was just raised differently, I guess. I'm hard pressed to root for one or the other at this point. I was a fan of Erika, Jack, Dave, Justin, and even Robert when he was down to the F3. Never would I offer an "explanation" for any of their slurs or fowl language. I just found it more disappointing than anything else. Guess we'll just disagree on this one, Wendo. I won't comment further on it because, quite frankly, I've read enough to know how it will go from there. |
Wendo | Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 08:13 pm     Chippy said, "Guess we'll just disagree on this one, Wendo. I won't comment further on it because, quite frankly, I've read enough to know how it will go from there." Other people have posted with my same opinion, but I get singled out. Go figure. Don't want to debate any further, eh Chippy. That's ok, I understand. When ones point is on shaky ground many prefer not to continue on with the discussion. You can vaguely imply that those of us who've posted in opposition to your opinion are "excusing" and "condoning" the behavior of this years HG's. But, as many of us have posted, we neither condone or excuse the offensive behavior of Jun and Ali. Frankly, I don't know how to say it any plainer for you to understand. Maybe read it slow, that'll help. Additionally, I can look at the HG's objectively. In fact, I would argue much more objectively than yourself. It's completely impossible for you to look at all sides of the matter. Where as I do. I see that their behavior is offensive. Find it sad to see it exist in the year 2003. Yet, I also am not naive to know that such behavior is taught and learned and it needs to stop. I'm a fan of all the HG's. Each and everyone said things or did things I wouldn't. But I don't condemn them for it. I try to understand and hope that they will change their ways and become a better humane being. For me, I choose to understand where this offensive behavior comes from, evaluate why it happens, so that I can learn from it in order to end it. Becuase if one doesn't try to understand the problem, the problem will continue and not be solved. If you can't understand that, well, perhaps it's best you don't continue in the discussion. |
|