I still don't get it.
TV ClubHouse: Archive: I still don't get it.
Lurknomore | Friday, September 26, 2003 - 08:48 am     Let me tell you one thing I have long learned that has been yet again verified by recent personal experiences. People like to believe they are a certain way and by stating they are, that is enough to see themselves that way, without ever truly looking at or evaluationg their actions. Generally they are NOTHING like they way they think they are, or present themselves as. But sometimes either through ignorance or approach get others to believe it (at least until others learn better--often the hard way). For example, I truly believe Jee believes himself to be "honorable" and feels that by stating it aloud he confirms he is an honorable man. He was likely raised to behave "honorably" so I think that does mean a lot to him, and is how he erroneously sees himself. Now, it might help his personal growth to look at the actions stated so well above and say "is that really how an honorable man acts?" I think his level of maturity and how much he wants personal growth will determine if he ever does that. Ali saying "it was just a game" was her way to justify her actions. Lame in execution, lame in explaination. Lastly, and too digress back to the topic of the thread lol, here is a point that I hate to admit to be true. No one says you have to be honorable to win this game. I still think it can be done (and Jason almost did it last year), but like most things in life the cop out, easy way is to lie, cheat, and manipulate people. Sadly these 2 went for the easy way. Jun just manipulated more and lied and used people less and that was why she was chosen IMHO. |
Pixieduster | Friday, September 26, 2003 - 09:01 am     No need to apologize Sean. I was surprised the first time I heard them refer to the Soup Nazi on Seinfeld, but I get the joke that it's based on the character's behaviors. I knew an administrative person in a corp. office environment that referred to an accountant as a Timecard Nazi. I got that joke too, but the acct. was offended. Thanks for the winkie-dink Clio. |
Seanflynn2003 | Friday, September 26, 2003 - 09:02 am     Manipulating people is no crime, and a necessity in life and the point of BB. To say "Jun lied less" implies that Jun lied a lot. In reality, on the key issues of voting and alliances, Jun lied very little -- she conveyed impressions, did not come out and say I am changing alliances, but she did not lie about how she was going to vote or in making active commitments to people. She did leave things murky, but if other lesser players (including Justin, Jee, Dave, Jack, Nathan, even Erika) had had the gumption to confront her directly, she would have had a far harder time playing her game. She also did not cheat. (I am not sure Allison did either.) Where Jun can fairly be criticized is her extraeneous badmouthing of the other HGs. In that she was IMO not as bad as Robert and Allison, but it has a lot to do with the bad taste she left with people. And not to say it is not in her nature, BUT had not she left that impression with Allison that the jury felt negatively about her, would she have been as likely to have taken her along to the final two? If BB tells us anything, it is that when the final HoH chooses the other finalist, it will be the more flawed HG. (Which is why Lisa did not choose Jason last year). So in terms of playing the game -- which at the end of the day is the point -- having flaws is actually an asset, not a negative. |
Lurknomore | Friday, September 26, 2003 - 09:17 am     Ah but SeanFlynn if Jason or Danielle won that HoH Jason WOULD have won! And I do believe Dani would have stuck with him. So let's not forget there is an element of luck in the game, and one week can change the total face of how it will go. I do agree the strategy is usually to bring the more flawed player, but there is no reason that a decent person/player can't be the one doing this. Or, if we should ever be so lucky, maybe some folks who play the game intelligently yet who are just nicer folks. I think this goes back to the problem for when the vote was taken from America to just the HG's. The casting in BB1 was too nice or too evil IMHO and America voted out the icky people. Folks then say they voted out the interesting people but sorry I will forever find Curtis more interesting than Jordon or Will Mega. But by taking the vote PURELY to the HG's they vote out the strong players. This is why I truly hope next year Arnie etc evuate what is and isn't working and I think this voting is NOT working. They need to balance it out so they can keep some strong, decent INTERESTING people. But I've been on this soapbox before. |
Seanflynn2003 | Friday, September 26, 2003 - 09:36 am     Had Jason won HoH the final time, he would have won of course, so you are right that one can play the game nice and have a shot. I personally would have had problems with Jason winning -- I don't like coat tail riders particularly in this game, but you are right, he did get close. My recollection is that Danielle specifically let go of the key in the final competition because she knew she couldn't beat Jason and thought she had a shot at beating Lisa. As far as the selection is concerned, if there were some sort of morality test/decency scale etc for the game, frankly I think it would be a boring show. The first rule of drama is get a good villain; that applies to BB. Also, I have always thought one had to be a bit damaged anyway to want to be on this show if you know what you are in for -- I know I never could for a whole bunch of reasons. Under the circumstances, getting flawed humans whose worst side comes out is not surprising. |
Lurknomore | Friday, September 26, 2003 - 10:03 am     My recollection about the key (which is admittedly hazy by now) is that Dani's teeth were chattering and she looked like she was about to die, whereas Lisa looked like she could sit there for the next week or so. However I don't blame Dani for that...I blame Jason. I agree he rode too many coattails and this was HIS HoH to WIN and take control of his destiny and not count on Dani or anyone else. But then again didn't Lisa win by riding coattails and just flying under the radar? And funny thing about your last paragraph Sean...when BB started I remember thinking if I didn't have family obligations I had to honor I would have LOVED to be on BB. Then came "the change" and along came tons of warped and IMHO for the most part icky people (that would make me agree with you). So to me if it was like BB1 where an interesting game could be played with interesting people (give or take a few lol) I could see why some quality folks would want to go on it. The latter BB's were like a painful experiement of looking at the worst of society under a microscope all to create (again IMHO) a real life soap opera. Also as reality tv grew all the shows are fighting the star wannabees to find those with personalities and who are interesting. Funny though how BB seems to lean towards those whereas other shows try to cast away. Look at Survivor...good, interesting blend of folks this go round (praise be). Not a lot of wannabee's! |
Monalisahi | Friday, September 26, 2003 - 10:14 am     Yep, last year, Dani held on. When it appeared as though she weak enough, Lisa offered her a deal. Dani, knowing she couldn't go much longer, did accept. She then let go of the key and ran right in and told Jason about it.....apologizing and even crying if I remember correctly. They then started planning for Jason to win part 2, which Dani threw to him. Then hoping he could take part 3 and choose to take Dani to the F2 with him. Jason lost part 3 to Lisa. |
Cameramanbob | Friday, September 26, 2003 - 10:15 am     Clio - Here is my 'working theory' on your first post: I'd say it is because of an unstated preference of brains over braun. Alison played like a athlete and seemed to need to be rewarded like she had won the olympics. Jun played shrewdly and covertly and was seen as 'the smartest' in the house. Even if neither contestant had done ANYthing unsavoury in terms of respectful / disrespectful behaviour, Jun would have gotten the votes for so-called 'brains' over the 'jockishness' of Alison. I'm not saying it is right or wrong - just is. |
Pantageas | Friday, September 26, 2003 - 10:15 am     Every week one of the Jee3 had HoH(4 total), Alison promised that she would vote the way they wanted - the only time she did was to evict Nate(when the J3 already had the numbers to ensure he went). She promised Jack/Erika/Nate that she would nominate Justin when she had HoH - she didn't. She nominated the biggest threat to HER. She betrayed her alliance w/Nate(who had vetoed HER) as soon as he was in trouble. She made an silent agreement with Justin to support each other - she voted against him for eviction. She promised Erika she would't evict her - she did(crocodile-teary). She made a deal w/Robert that she was 99% sure she would take him to Final 2(That last 1% is something else, huh). It kinda reminds me of the old Paula Poundstone joke about Sirhan Sirhan's parole comment of how RFK was a compassionate man, and would support his parole - "Well, it's too bad you went and shot him in the head then, isn't it! The one guy who would support you - and you killed him!". Alison got to the Final 2 by betraying all alliances and agreements when it benefitted her. Too bad those same people decided who got the $500K check... |
Seanflynn2003 | Friday, September 26, 2003 - 10:23 am     Survivor has no live feeds, and the game is far more physical than mental. If we had the casts and situations were reversed, my guess is any given Survivor group would act much the same as BB casts do. |
Cameramanbob | Friday, September 26, 2003 - 10:30 am     I forget who posted it (and in which thread) but I love the comment that bottom line this is a personality contest. Not 100%, but the players should never forget that. |
Vealprince | Friday, September 26, 2003 - 10:37 am     I agree on the initial comment about Jee. My take on him is just that he is a bit immature. In fact, I think that any contestant who has to continually restate their 'honorability' in order to validate who they are has no place in this game. This is a game where lying and manipulating should be EXPECTED and dealt with in a manner where you don't take it personally. We loved Will's lying, we hated Alisons. That doesn't make one contestants lying any less necessary to get to the end of this game. Will just did it ina way that didn't deny him the final vote. Alison did not. Live and learn. Would anyone here go on BB and expect NOT to be lied to? |
Lovedana | Friday, September 26, 2003 - 11:10 am     "Ah but SeanFlynn if Jason or Danielle won that HoH Jason WOULD have won! And I do believe Dani would have stuck with him. So let's not forget there is an element of luck in the game, and one week can change the total face of how it will go." I disagree, Lurknomore. I am not convinced that Danielle would have taken Jason had she won the final HOH. What I am almost convinced of is that she would have shed her crocodile tears and explained to Jason how much in need her family was for half a million instead of 50k and she couldn't stand to lose the chance. Hence, she would let him go and take Lisa instead. Of course it hadn't occurred to her that the houseguests would realize her nature. Had she been aware of how much the evicted houseguests would uncover on the tape and how significant her backstabbing of Marcellas was, then she might be willing to take Jason. Why? Not because he was a buddy, but because he stabbed others in the back in their views (this was how they perceived it, not necessarily how I perceived it), albeit he was partly doing her dirty work. Enough of that discussion for now. I guess we can always agree to disagree. As for the subject of Alison vs. Jun, it doesn't seem complicated to me. Meggieprice pretty much summed up my view coupled with the kitchen factor. I posted an explanation of my thinking and perhaps that of the evicted houseguests. I won't go through the trouble of reiterating it. Let's just put it this way: Alison argued, in her final appeals to the jury, that she had played a better game psychologically and intellectually (to name one more reason that I forget at the moment). I was so flabbergasted when she made that statement. I couldn't believe that she was that convinced that she was intellectually and psychologically superior to not only all of the evicted houseguests, but also Jun! That pretty much verified my perception of her as delusional. In a nutshell: Jun was intellectually and psychologically superior to Alison. Hardly much people realized the strength of the kitchen role Jun played. Nicole played it in the past, but she projected her controlling nature in the process and usurped the position, so it became hard to appreciate her and even subconsciously see it. Also, Nicole failed to exploit the cook's role as much as Jun did. Jun didn't just play the role to get the mother title (as Nicole did), she used it to look innocent, literally hear things, literally view things, and have people share things with her even subconsiously. All right, I'll stop here. I didn't want to say too much. :o |
Seanflynn2003 | Friday, September 26, 2003 - 11:19 am     What Lovedana said. |
Gina8642 | Friday, September 26, 2003 - 12:19 pm     I get it. Totally. If I had a vote, it would have been for Alison, but I'm a contrary person and it's something I've known about myself for a long, long time. All I've had to do was peruse this board to know that most people disagree with me. I'm not at all surprised that a majority of the HGs disagreed with me. This is a game of majority rules. They voted, Alison lost. Ok by me. |
Woodpecke® | Friday, September 26, 2003 - 12:27 pm     I'd say the the public sentiment for Jun over Alison was about 80% to 20% before the show on Wednesday. After seeing the episode and witnessing Alison's behavior during and after, I'm going to guess it's now about 95% to 5%. |
Chippy | Friday, September 26, 2003 - 02:02 pm     No kidding. I didn't think that even I could think less of Ali than I already did. After reading a couple post show interviews, I do. Wow, that one is just never gonna get it. This is the real Alison Irwin. Game face off. |
Pascalle | Friday, September 26, 2003 - 02:47 pm     What Kali and Love said. |
Seanflynn2003 | Friday, September 26, 2003 - 02:56 pm     The weird thing is I was beginning to tolerate, even enjoy, Ali in the last week of the show - the interplay with Jun and the end of the competition seemed to make her more human and vulnerable. But she is her own worst enemy, I totally agree that Jun has a much better perspective on herself and is less delusional. It is a big part of the reason she won the game. Among other things, she accepted that she wasn't well liked, and knew that she had to get someone even less liked with her to the end. |
Chippy | Friday, September 26, 2003 - 02:58 pm     I think the ONLY reason Jun won was because of who she was up against. I'm not saying that's right or wrong, just saying that's my take on it. Against anyone else, I think she was toast. With PB&J of course. |
Seanflynn2003 | Friday, September 26, 2003 - 03:05 pm     I don;t disagree Chippy - one of the reasons she deserved to win is because she too figured this out. C1Mag and I had a debate some weeks ago when Justin was on the block (and when I was worried about how Jun was going to thread the needle to victory) that he needed to reach out to her if he wanted to survive. The same scenario -- finding ways to win by having a strategy and then executing it -- applies to several other HGs who were clueless how to get to the end. |
Chippy | Friday, September 26, 2003 - 03:43 pm     Absolutely right, Sean. Ya know, as much as some like to say Jack wasn't the brightest bulb on the shelf, he certainly called the threats as they were. He just couldn't get anyone on board the train before it left the station. LOL! He tried, bless his heart. |
Cousin_Jake | Friday, September 26, 2003 - 05:22 pm     I agree that Jack had the game players nailed early in the game. He just couldn't get anyone to see it his way. |
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