Is it really Donnie who says he's through with Ali?
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TV ClubHouse: Archive: Is it really Donnie who says he's through with Ali?
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Archive through September 03, 2003 25   09/04 03:49am
Archive through September 04, 2003 25   09/04 08:45pm
Archive through September 05, 2003 25   09/05 09:18am
Archive through September 05, 2003 25   09/05 05:53pm

Gina8642

Friday, September 05, 2003 - 01:49 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Growing up my teachers made a HUGE effort to teach me to spell. I resisted completely and am a lousy speller. Spelling means nothing to me. I never judge on it. I find many, many people do. To me, it just makes no sense to be concerned with something that is just a standard and has nothing to do with intelligence or ability to communicate. I pretty much feel the same way about grammer - if you communicated what you intended - it's all good.

I think the place for perfect spelling and grammer is in school papers, writings intended for publication, and in e-mails sent to co-workers beyond your immediate work group. (And, of course, professional snail mail.)

I think chat room posts, instant messages, and e-mails to close friends and family and co-workers can and should have a lower standard. Here, the flow of thought, and quick communications are the intention - not perfection of anything. These types of writings should more closely approximate speech. Not a perfectly formulated school paper.

BTW - I don't run my posts through a spell check because it crashes my internet connection, gives my computer errors and genreally causes all sorts of havok!!! If I had to please the spelling folks on every post, I'd be rebooting my computer and defragmenting my hard drive twice an hour - sorry, not gonna do that folks!! Don't judge people for not spell checking!!

Beruthiel

Friday, September 05, 2003 - 01:51 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I was taught in the same way as Bohawkins, and I agree that the phonics method has a lot to answer for, but I also think that the 'learn by doing' ideology played a role.
"Let the kids write however they want, don't correct spelling or grammatical errors, they'll pick it up by doing it, and we don't want to stifle their natural creativity by squashing them with rules."
If you don't have the tools and the skills, it just makes it harder to be creative. It's the same with art, which I also indulge in. Even Picasso learnt how to draw meticulous and beautiful accurate representations before he was adept enough to start 'playing around'.

Yeah, I know, I'm a fussy old fuddy duddy, but hey, I can spell!

Busydizzle

Friday, September 05, 2003 - 01:54 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I agree with you completely, Gina. Of course spelling and grammar should matter in a book, magazine, newspaper, etc. Donny got his point across and there really weren't that many egregious errors. I've certainly seen worse, even on this board! And I definitely don't want those people to feel self-conscious about posting. We all have valid ideas to share; big deal if the language isn't perfect. Whose is?

Beruthiel

Friday, September 05, 2003 - 01:55 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
And I'm always behindhand with my posts because I'm a two finger typist, have to watch the keyboard, and then need to take time to correct all my typos- which are many!- before posting.

Steveh

Friday, September 05, 2003 - 03:54 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Beruthiel - as someone often accused of using the method you mention in an earlier post--ignore the grammar, sp., etc. so as not to stifle creativity--I feel compelled to clarify slightly.

I agree with you that a lack of a grasp of the basics of written comm. (sp, punct., usage) shouldn't be ignored, but it SHOULD be put into perspective. When I grade papers I do so with the following focus (most important area first): audience awareness, purpose, organization, development, sentence structure, word choice, grammar/usage/sp/punct. The only way the last group becomes extremely important is if a writer is so lacking in a grasp of "the basics" that what s/he writes is indecipherable (it happens way too much in college even).

More often than not, collaborative student/teacher attention to/re-thinking, revision of the other, more highly prioritized aspects of written comm. ends up alleviating many of the problems a writer may be having with spelling, punctuation, grammar, etc.

IMO, the way writing was taught K-16 (product oriented/error focused) up through the mid '70s made a large % of its students obsessive-compulsive when it came to error. And paralyzed when it came to communicating, in writing, effectively. The current process-oriented approach (and it does have its touchy-feely/group hug/there's no such thing as a bad writer drawbacks) has its downside, but also its benefits. My reaction, as a writing teacher, to "Donny's" email would be--now here is a writer I could work with.

Sorry to continue this somewhat esoteric vein, but it's interesting to see what others--many seemingly outside the stuffy confines of the "academy"--have to say about the way I make my living.

Thanks to everyone for your contributions to this thread. Enjoyable, eye-opening, helpful and, most importantly of all, FUNNY.

Dogdoc

Friday, September 05, 2003 - 04:21 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Some of us are not visual learners and therefore we have trouble spelling. It is not that we don't care. We don't even know we are making mistakes. Please be patient with us.

Beruthiel

Friday, September 05, 2003 - 04:30 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I appreciate your perspective on the issue, Steveh, [and I'm one of those who has also enjoyed this thread too - does that make me a pedant!], and I'm glad of the opportunity to address it again. I was wanting to come back and perhaps explain a little better, since, sometimes, no matter how carefully one composes, what one intended to say doesn't come across as one hopes.
I hope that I didn't come across as being totally for or against the methods of teaching under discussion, because I do agree that some children get paralysed by over-emphasis on the details over content. I guess my feeling is that whenever a 'new' technique is introduced, what is good about the older method gets tossed, and we lose the baby with the bathwater. There's a tendency to jump on the new bandwagon, and it's only after a period of time that the negatives of one method over another become apparent.
Since there are as many ways of learning as there are children, it appears to me that educators should be able to feel free to use whatever method works best for any particular child, and not feel forced to use only the 'prescribed' methods that are currently in vogue.
Of course it's easy to say that without considering the fact that most teachers don't have the time nor the resources to personalise for every student, but ideally, a little flexibility would work wonders for teachers and children. It goes without saying that encouragement rather than over-regulation works best with most kids.
I'd also like to say that I agree with those who have stated that there's a time and a place for exactitude and that a board like this shouldn't be a place where folks might feel reluctant to post because of not being 'perfect'.
[I don't know why that came up, because I thought the conversation was more an abstract consideration of the merits of being skilled at language!]
However, while I do agree that we shouldn't worry here, as we would when writing an essay, I stick to my guns in believing that we are here to communicate, and for that reason, we should at least try to write clearly, and as correctly as we can, out of consideration for those who want to read and share. It's simple courtesy to our fellows.
(Now I'm off for a lie-down - I'm sick, and this has made my head hurt more, LOL!)

Reader234

Friday, September 05, 2003 - 05:10 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I enjoyed the thread also (and am wondering if we'll ever find out the source of our 'entertainment'!)

Just wanted to add, that app 10 years (or more) a wave of sorts started which included "invented spelling" - (some of you may recall the wave of education - whole language) at this some school districts in an effort to save money, did away with the purchasing of spelling books, and organized spelling programs at the elementary level, add to this the frequent use of computers also btw... always more than one reason change occurs! Anyway, in our school we always blame the way whole language was used, bits and pieces, and that included the "invented" spelling. Many teachers do introduce spelling, and try and incorporate it with either the reading topic, or with a phonics rules...

Puzzled

Friday, September 05, 2003 - 05:49 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
When I went to school, in the dark ages, we were given 5 words at the end of each day. Normally 3-4 words were ones we'd already done.

The next morning, we got about 10 minutes to write a sentence for each word that showed its meaning. The sentence could be as simple as, "I hate spinach," if the target word was "hate."

We handed in our papers and we were not graded, just given a check or a question mark. It was a fun excercise, since we loved writing things we thought were witty.

I think it really did help hone our language usage.

Costacat

Friday, September 05, 2003 - 05:53 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
As someone who writes for a living, I have to add...

A "smart" person is not someone who knows how to spell. A "smart" person is someone who knows how to LOOK like he or she knows how to spell.

As someone who writes for a living, I also have to add... it's taken me years to learn to overcome the urge to grab a red pen (or send an email) to someone -- anyone -- who writes incorrectly. That includes novelists and those who post on public discussion boards.

Beruthiel

Saturday, September 06, 2003 - 02:58 am EditMoveDeleteIP
LOL! Costacat! Don't bite me if I say - maybe we'd both make good EDITORS!

Ducking and running before Costacat can catch me!

Schoolmarm

Saturday, September 06, 2003 - 03:27 am EditMoveDeleteIP
<Marm wants to hire Costacat and Beruthiel to edit her next publication>

Anyone for moving this discussion over to the General Discussions section of the main board and not the Big Brother area? I'd do it, but I'm going off-line because today I'm acutally clipping out another 20-page article out of my dissertation for publication. I was petrified to get my 499 pages ready for publication, as my spelling is not great. I think that it is actually hilarious that I'm publishing....thank heavens for good editors!

I learned how to spell "sentence" yesterday. One word at a time!

Spike763

Saturday, September 06, 2003 - 09:09 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I believe Donny and Ali will be back together after all is said and done. Ali will smear on her standard bull, Donny will fall for it, marry her, probably have a couple kids. But watch out when a few years later, Ali wants to run for PTA president and decides to sleep with a few of the other parents, male or female, to get the votes. And Donny will STILL think all is well.

Lorry

Saturday, September 06, 2003 - 10:40 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Personally I do not care who sleeps with who or what their reasons are. I thought we, as a society had gotten over the idea of the double standard.

Our heroes, be they in sports, movies, or on tv or real life all have pasts... some more than others.

It has nothing to do with if they are good people or bad people. Some of us love easier than others and some of us just lust a lot more than others.

If who we sleep with, or how many we sleep with determines the good or the bad in us, then that is as wrong as judging a person by their color or weight or education. Diversity is life itself.

As for the game... you do what you feel you want to do to get ahead.... if it does not sit well with others.... does it really matter in the end? It would only matter if that was the determining factor in the game.... and it appears to me that it has no real value in the game.

If we want to watch every lump under the covers, or listen to every moan... so be it... those who do not care to watch or listen... well, we can wash the dishes or do the laundry until it is over. Me? I am an old grumpy broad and depending on who is moaning and who's lumps under covers are moving....determines if I watch and listen...hehe Yeah... sex is not bad... and can be entertaining if the right people are putting on the show. JMO

Lorry

Saturday, September 06, 2003 - 10:45 am EditMoveDeleteIP
As for the spelling.... who cares really? I used to get annoyed at the spelling errors or grammar errors... until I read my own posts and realized the excitement of posting got the better of me and I had as many, if not more errors myself.

I say "lettuce fergit the speling and have us a lovin".