Archive through September 17, 2003
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TV ClubHouse: Archive: Such lovely women left in the house (:P not)!: Archive through September 17, 2003

Gina8642

Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 09:57 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I disliked Danielle more than any of these three - mostly because she knew better. So I wouldn't say they are the most disliked HGs ever - at least not for everyone

I will say that I've never seen a final three filled with people who, as a whole, were as vile as these three (or final four for that matter).

Monalisahi

Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 09:58 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Missapril..follow up the insult of "b@tch" with we're going to send her home this week and going to destroy her gift.....what do you have then?

"self-righteous child worshipper"....yes, I'm a mother and also a person who thinks any unwarranted attacks on children are crossing the line

And for clarification, both Ali and Jun have called Elena a "b@tch." Ali did it twice (2 different occassions) and Jun once (that I know of). Now, I don't claim to have been in their head to know exactly how they meant it or even if they meant it (really doesn't matter to me anyway), all I have to judge it by is that they did say it and the tone they said it and other things which were said in addition to it (I do have the LF's and I heard it myself).

Carrie92

Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 10:02 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Robert made his comments in anger. He ranted for about 3 hours after the girls evicted Jack instead of Erika, going against Jee's plan.
Ali and Jun have made their comments while LOUNGING, EATING, AND EXERCISING.

Not only that, they ACKNOWLEDGE their b*tchiness... " we are the 2 biggest b*tches in BB history ".

I know, I know, he called them tramps and wh*res too, whatever, he was called out on it by Julie AND the audience - he admitted it to the girls when he didn't have to (he could have waited for them to see it on tape long after the show ended), and he has apologized, half-hearted as it was, it was still an acknowledgement of guilt.

He was generalizing. They are targeting specific things.

And as angry as he was at the time, those were the worst words he could come up with?
Yes, they are horrible words, but they are the tip of the iceberg in comparison to Ali and Jun's words.

Spike763

Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 10:07 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Sadly, I have decided not to watch the live feeds anymore due to the statements that the girls are making towards everyone. My mother always told me, and your's probably did you, "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all". Unfortunately, some may not have been taught this and instead were taught to step on anyone/everyone who got in your way and don't care what you say or do to them, because YOU are in the right. YOU are the most important person in the world and only YOUR opinions matter.
This is sadly what the children of today are being brought up to believe and will see more of later. No respect for fellow man.
I pray I've raised my children better than this and that they are not like this when away from me.

Fan3

Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 10:16 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Well, I just wish we had some way of getting a hold of Elane mom, she could get the money she can sue for liable. She already at least one of these "women" will have money proably both but I think she would have a good case has plenty of witness. so that is my 2 cents worth the kid should get the money.

Carrie92

Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 10:17 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Amen to that Spike! My son picked up "poopy head" from school, and it was made very clear to him he would be in big trouble if we heard that again! Silly goose is about as far as we let him go with name-calling. :)
I loathe that I have to raise him in this post-modernistic world. But, you don't really notice all that's going on until you have kids, at least I didn't.

Carrie92

Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 10:24 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Right on Fan! I wonder if she could do that? Don't know what the laws are regarding libel.

Yeah! Elena should get the money! Hear that, CBS??

Crazydog

Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 10:24 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I doubt Natasha (Robert's ex and Elena's mother) will be able to file a lawsuit for libel against Jun and Alison. First of all, libel is when you publish, in some kind of printed form, and untruth. I think you are looking for the term "slander", which involves the spoken word.

Regardless, in order for such a suit to succeed, it must be proved that it was believed by the person to whom it was spoken. They were speaking to each other, and I don't think either of them truly believes that Elena is a little bizatch.

Why must everything always devolve upon lawsuits? This country is too litigious. The minute anyone feels offended or harmed by anyone else, people immediately rush to lawsuits.

Ezgoing

Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 10:26 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Too late to edit previous post, but wanted to thank several other posters for their worthwhile posts too---I still can't grasp why this is so controversial.

1. Robert acted/spoke in an offensive, inappropriate, derogatory manner when he became frustrated, angered, disappointed.
2. It was brought to his attention.
3. He immediately acknowledged it, apologized for it, did NOT attempt to rationalize, justify, or excuse his poor behavior.
4. He has not demonstrated any continuation of the previous behavior! (don't you think that if he REALLY felt all women were b,s,w, he would have felt any further justified after being embarrassed by Julie, a woman?!)
5. He has apologized to EVERYONE--the CBS viewing audience, the Internet chatters, his fellow houseguests. For those who might feel he only did so when he HAD to (i.e., Julie interview, Internet question), I say he had NOTHING to gain and EVERYTHING to lose by telling the houseguests. But he did it anyway, acknowledging how he just didn't know what to say when he got upset, did NOT mean it, and was sorry for it. He has not repeated the comments.
6. Jun and Ali have not only NOT accepted his apology nor acknowledged his ceasing of it, they are using his past mistake to justify their OWN similar behaviors (name-calling) and upped the ante to include calling a non-competitor names (a child, at that.)
7. Who has exhibited more personal growth, even at the expense of potentially damaging their standing in the game?

Meggieprice

Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 10:27 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I personally have never witnessed trashing and insulting of the level we have been seeing between Ali and Jun this past week.
Last year, being bedridden, I was on the feeds virtually all the time and IMO it was NOTHING like this display. I do hope they see it and hear about it, and regret it. There is no concrete, game realted reason=it is getting them nowhere in the game and I do not understand why they take so much pleasure in it.

Edited to add- Bogiesgal de lurked a while back to say that those who always put posters down for judging, liking or dislikng, etc these HG have to see that the show is what it is to get us to do just that. Of course we judge them. Of course we like some and dislike others. It would disappear if we didn't.

Ezgoing

Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 10:41 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Meggie, I was in a similar situation last year (stuck in bed, on feeds for hours :--I went by "Guiltyviewer" in those days), posting to LFPs). Sure we saw and heard a lot of boasting, smack-talking, verbal intimidation to try to psyche out one's competitors, etc. But it never reached the level of pure ugliness we've seen here. It makes no sense either. How does it better Jun's or Ali's game/position? It doesn't. So it is just done because they choose to, without cause or provocation.

Rob made mistakes and learned from them, showing himself capable of admitting his lackings and wanting to do better, and then doing just that. Does it make him blameless--no. He was and is responsible for what he said and did. He SAID he did it when he got upset because he didn't know how else to express those feelings. IS IT ANY SURPRISE COMING FROM ROBERT that he didn't know how to say what he felt in an appropriate way? The guy can barely finish a sentence when he ISN'T upset! He is learning better ways to handle things, and for that I give him credit. He has a long way to go still, but he is on his way.

Can the same be said of Ali or Jun? Not yet, but I hope they will take the opportunity to review the tapes and read some message boards to see how they have chosen to act is not seen as acceptable either. Hopefully, like Robert did, when it is brought to their attention, they will make amends. So far, they are deserving of our seeing them in the negative light we do. They can change that though, and I sincerely hope they do.

Gina8642

Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 12:18 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Robert made a half hearted apology for his derogatory rants weeks and weeks after he started making the statements. He made these statements numerous times within each rant. He ranted on multiple occasions. His only seemingly heartfelt apology has been during the internet chat - out of earshot of Jun & Ali (this was after he'd been confronted around three times with his statements - that is not an immediate apology). He acted like a cocky jerk when he was talking about it to Jun & Ali. Ali and Jun didn't take his statements while on top of the house as an apology and neither did I - some here have - that's fine - but you need to realize that many didn't even see what he said in that light including Ali & Jun.

On the other hand - Jun & Ali made their comments in the last few days - how come they don't get weeks and weeks to make an apology? They only made the statement a total of three times - how come Robert was allowed to make his multiple times a day for weeks? How come Ali & Jun don't get to be confronted about it three times before they apologize? How come statements made in anger are more excusable than those made in jest (filled with sarcism and irony)?

Does anybody get the hypocrisy of these arguments?

I really just don't get why folks are trying to paint one action as somehow worse than another.

Monalisahi

Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 12:53 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Gina, I hope I've made my distinctions clear in my posts. And I'm not excusing Rob in the least. But, I do think that calling names (if that's the kind of thing you do) of a hg who is involved in the game is entirely different from calling a 7 yr old daughter of a hg who is not involved in the game a name. And to be perfectly honest, it wouldn't matter if she was involved in the game, she's only 7.

As far as that it was done in jest, guess I don't see the humor of being mean to a little kid, and hopefully, I never will.

Wendo

Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 12:56 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Hmm, I don't recall hearing Robert apologize for his comments to Jun and Ali during the endurance competition. Didn't hear an "I'm sorry" or "I apologize". All I heard was a man laughing about being called out by Julie and explain away his comments as he didn't mean them and they were only said in anger. Where's the apology? (And, Rob can think he's only said those things in anger all he wants, but those who've watched the feeds know that that is not the case. He frequently used those terms during times of casual conversation where he was not angry.)

On another note...The thing I keep thinking of regarding Jun and Ali's comments about Robert's daughter is this; they've never met his daughter, seen only pictures of her, have no real grasp that she is, indeed, a real person. I'm not a psychiatrist at all but I wonder whether the use of the b-word about Elena was really about Elena at all and, rather, more about Rob. Misplaced anger about Rob pointed at his daugther. Was it really anger about his daughter, or was it anger about Rob. IMO, it's anger about Rob. (And, since it seems this is necessary, in no way does that mean the comments weren't appropriate. I'm trying to understand where the comments come from and why.)

Lastly, on yet another note, I'm curious about something. (In all seriousness.) Why do people continue to watch the live feeds and the show when said show and it's participants obviously offend your sensibilites? I've read many posts here, and in other threads, where the behavior of the houseguests is "awful, offensive" and the like. And yet, these same posters are still watching the live feeds, immediately posting the next "horrible and vile" comment out of the participants mouths. Is it "car crash" syndrome? You don't want to watch yet, you're still curious and can't look away? I would think that if one is so offended (and apparently many are very offended by Jun and Ali's comments about Rob's daughter), one would turn the show and feeds off. Be done with it all as they say.

And yet, that's not the case. It's like, one is offended but not offended enough to turn it off.

Crazydog

Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 01:01 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I fully agree, Wendo. I doubt very much that Jun and Alison have any animosity towards Elena herself. It's Rob they are annoyed with, and the fact that apparently because he has a daughter America likes him the best - there was all that discussion about how it's Robert's Choice. And how if Alison were ever on a reality show again that she should have a kid first. That was one of the few things that Alison has said that I actually thought was astute and funny.

Everyone here has been acting like Jun and Alison are Satan's spawn because they referred to a little girl as a bizatch, but I doubt they mean it. They are just irritated with Robert.

Spunky

Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 01:03 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
There is a great article/post by a UK viewer at Joker's website. "Ali, game or malicious". I found that quite interesting and dead on.

Now if someone writes a study of Jun just as good let me know...

Missapril

Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 01:04 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
explaining away isn't apologizing in a cowardly way to you? interesting...
<el> i don't suppose you've ever said anything in the context of blowing off steam and paying dirty for dirty, either, huh? apparently many were offended by nothing and just enjoy pretending to be offended...

Prisonerno6

Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 01:06 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
"And yet, that's not the case. It's like, one is offended but not offended enough to turn it off. "

For the record, I turned it off last night. After Jun's comment about how awful Rob was for saying those things about them (i.e., things similar to what Ali and Jun have said about others).

I also haven't turned the feeds on since the mime, and the mime was the first time I had turned them on and left them on in quite a while. It's not "car crash" syndrome, but rather "hopeless optimist" syndrome. I keep hoping to see something different, but I don't.

I also don't plan to watch the show tonight, but rather I plan on watching the West Wing repeat. I might flip channels to see if things play out as expected in the HOH competition and the eviction, but I might not.

And for your next question, I won't be coming here as much as I have unless something unexpected happens in the house.

Tissy

Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 01:08 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Anyone remember if these two ladies<??> have had a decent word to say about any of the evicted hgs??
They seem to have spent the last 2 months or so just slagging people off

Fan3

Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 01:10 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
If you heard the way they said and the hatred they said it with I believe you would change you're mind. I still say I would sue as someone said in toher thread about other kids knowing and calling Elane this. Jun & Ali need to be responsible for there actions & words.

Cliotheleo

Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 01:11 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Tissy, they said that Dave was both cute and hot. ............ that's all I remember.

Meggieprice

Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 01:12 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Wendo- I have turned them off. Then I start thinking- well, surely they have stopped spending all their time trashing people, and I turn them on again. And it is still going on so I turn them off.Lucky me- I have managed to hear all the Elena bashing...sarcasm sacrcasm.

I don't think it is fair to say- turn it off if it bothers you. We all love Big Brother- that is why we are here at TVCH- you can't blame us for hoping for it to not be so offensive or upsetting- and I think because we are fans it is more upsetting to us to lose the show we like to watch.

Wendo

Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 01:16 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Fan3, I did hear the comments on the feeds.

Meggie, I didn't say turn it off if it bothers you. I asked why some who are so offended by the show and its participants continue to watch.

C1mag

Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 01:23 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Actually Meg, and you know I freaking adore you, it is a fair statement to suggest if you are offended then turn it off. BB pretty much covered themselves with the little promo before you click on the live feeds... It states, "The live and on demand content may contain elements offensive to some users and inappropriate for users under 21."

Meggieprice

Wednesday, September 17, 2003 - 01:39 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I know, I know, C1 darlin' (adoration mutual). I do turn them off when I can't take it. I basically just lament that this particular group this particular year has brought me to this point because I love the show, I look forward to it every summer, and I would prefer to want to listen in all the time. I've just had it with the sameness of the goings on.

I remember loving the time Dani and Lisa had together last year when they got drunk and carried on. To think that this final two will be nothing but a huge bashfest is a sorry state of affairs for me.

I would say many people ARE turning it off- even our chat thread is quiet many nights.