Archive through September 09, 2003
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TV ClubHouse: Archive: Alison's Debate Thread (ARCHIVES): Archive through September 09, 2003

C1mag

Monday, September 08, 2003 - 10:40 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
June pretended to be Danas buddy and continues to say the woman was a mess and a psycho, but hey it's Dana and so it doesn't count. I actually think Jun was much more cruel in this game. She daily stirred the pot of hatred to make sure the house would remain divided based on hatred. Ali was dubbed a liar and the gauntlet was laid down. They knew what she was up too and they either played with her taking a chance or got bit. There is no rule that says you must be loyal or carry anyone to the finals except yourself. Every time that woman has been close to going she has saved herself. This is a game not a journey in ethics. God forbid or they would all have been booted.

Making up false rumors about Erika for the soul purpose of targeting her was Roberts only game play with his wonderful dreamteam players. Jun loved to get that rumor mill going as needed. So looks like Miss Ali wasn't the only one with the rumors. Poor Gerry last year was called a childmolestor by Lisa and yet she still got the money. Coarse that was sweet Lisa.

If there is one SAD liar in this game it's that guy named rob. Notice I said "sad" liar.. Oh by the way did I tell ya he knows Carmen Electras Body Trainer and he can hook ya up? Coarse this is Robert and he loves his daughter so it's all ok.

We've all known evil cheerleaders like Ali? Not me. However, I have known a few paranoid wallflowers that "think" they have someone all figured out and their hatred of that so called alleged evil cheerleader is based on jealousy and mostly a myth.

Is Ali the WORST reality game show player ever? Hell NO! Miss Sue Hawk will always have that award. Looking right at someone and telling them that if they were dying on the road and needed a drink of water she'd pass them by and let the buzzards eat on their rotting flesh is pretty rough. Nothings gonna top someone saying to another persons face, I would let you die in the streets if I ever saw you. No way of skirting around that one.

Oh wait... Ali said she hated someone knowing that if she led them to believe she hated the particular person somone is targeting they would keep her over that person. Oh wow she sure was wrong for doing that, but dang it looks like she's going to the end and will win at least 50k. Hahahahaha Who cares about slopping sugar when she doesn't know these people. Julie Chin said to Jack, "did ya come to win some money or make some friends?" This game is all about deception. She chose the harshest road in the game of deception but with this house divided early on this type of deception has paid off. Good job for Ali.

Ali's game has been covered by the rules. Thats my take on it. No one told me I'd have to "like" these players but the tempo has been very even in this house with the hatred, the bashing and the name calling that it's impossible to lift one higher than another when it comes to ethics and morals in this game.

Wendo

Monday, September 08, 2003 - 10:47 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Well, Meggie, I'm glad I was able to make my point clearer. And yes, I do separate the person from the game play and game player.

Now, I will argue, I don't think Ali's game playing has been perfect or the best. (I just can't be pleased can I.) I think it's been strong and good in a lot of ways. However, I do agree with those (and you) who argue that some of her game moves may have alienated the jury. It will just depend on what kind of jury it turns out to be. (I've said this before, if Ali had to face last years jury, she would lose hands down.)

OT - Yes, I did recall that you have ReplayTV but that you've had difficulty with it. (Too bad you didn't go with TiVo, mines been flawless. Not one problem whatsoever. In fact, I now have it connected to my ethernet network so it downloads data via highspeed. So it only takes seconds for that nightly update.) And I agree, I don't know what I did before it! LOL!

Caycaye

Monday, September 08, 2003 - 10:47 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Oh C1Mag...were you a wallflower/cheerleader wann-be??? Well, I was a cheerleader and Captain as a matter of fact...and some of the most lying, trouble-making people I have ever known were some so-called "sweet cheerleaders"... I was raised to be sincere and YES in MY opinion Ali is EVIL...She is only 23...give her time...she will wreak some more serious havoc in her time...JMO

Wendo

Monday, September 08, 2003 - 10:50 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Dang C1, I was hoping you'd get here...LOL! You're a much better "speaker" than I am.

Caycaye

Monday, September 08, 2003 - 10:51 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Oh...and BY THE WAY... I was TOTALLY against Lisa last year also, because she started the "Gerry" molester theory for no reason and ALSO she and Danielle...about the "Amy with no underwear on, in front of Roddy in the hot tub" rumor. It should NOT be necessary to win this game. Whether any of you agree with me or not, I will NEVER admire ruthlessness or despicable behavior no matter HOW much money is involved. I NEVER said I admired many of these House Guests...did I?

Wendo

Monday, September 08, 2003 - 10:53 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I think this bears repeating from the Moderators description of this thread, "Keep in mind that we are discussing the one named characters being portrayed in an artificial environment, keep the real life person out of it, we don’t truly know the real people."

Caycaye, you do not like Ali, you've said as much. However, calling her evil crosses the line. JMO.

C1mag

Monday, September 08, 2003 - 11:09 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Cay there are cruel mean people all over the place not just "cheerleaders" Well lets hope so or some might think by association you might... well, no you admit you were a sincere cheerleader amongst all the mean ones. :)

Bottom line... Ali has played a hell of a game locked away in a house with a whole group of trash talking, foul, vulgar players. She dared to play the game.

Lostintheglades

Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 05:53 am EditMoveDeleteIP
<Psst! Hey Lost! I'm lost! LOL I can't figure out what you were upset about with Ali. Help me out here please???? >

HamsterLady...I refuse to answer on the grounds that someone might slap me....lol

First let me say I did not call anyone any name. I did mention Ali's "I'm all that attitude" so I guess some people got upset at me for that but I had just been watching LF's for a few hours and was feeling frustrated having watched Ali watch herself in the windows while she did her laundry for 2 hours. There weren't any blatant actions, just the subtleties of her body language.

No one was talking and Erika came out after her DR session and was trying the lighten the obvious tension in the BY but her attempts at conversation were treated with "looks"...those little things that you see and can't mention when doing LF's because they are really just your interpretation of how they are acting....so I turned the LF's off, made my exit from the LFP area and I came here to vent a little. I guess I should have gone to the complaint thread instead.

Ali has been very entertaining, I'll give her that. You really never know what she's going to do or who she's telling the truth to. She plays for herself and only for herself, making and breaking alliances as needed and keeps herself completely unemotional in regards to the game.

So...I will go back to LFP's(where I'm very good at keeping my opions to myself) and lurkdom.(where I just love reading everyone else's posts)

Lori

Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 07:35 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Well no matter what Ali does make the game more interesting, no matter if you like her or not.

Lost - you do an awesome job in LFP...keep it up...I certainly enjoy your posts! :)

Bigd

Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 08:01 am EditMoveDeleteIP
C1mag! very well said....thanks! I agree

Steveh

Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 08:42 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I find hilarioius the moderator's admonition to not discuss the contestants as people. What else do you discuss them as? Birds? Trees? They are people. They are bringing human characteristics to a gaming situation. Why should I assume that to win a half million (or 50 thousand) dollars that any or all of the contestants would adapt an entirely new persona to "play the game?"

I never said that seeing Ali--or any contestant/guest--in the house gives a completely accuarate picture of who they are. As others have pointed out, Ali--or any contestant--has not been asked to eat crap, stand in a steel cage, etc. outside the house. But there are many RL situations in the house too, primarily when the houseguests interact in a non-competition setting, when they are sitting around talking. In these situations, Ali invariably bashes someone or lies about them and when she does, I can not see how it advances her game position. She's on nat'l TV or the 'net doing this. Why would I think she'd be more discrete in the relative privacy of RL?

Okay, I'll look at Ali as a "game player." One of her abiding gaming characteristics seems to be that she's obsessive/compulsive. Sometimes this trait has served her well in the competitions and sometimes it hasn't (like in the last HOH when she admitted on the LF that she became so worked up she just lost it). Why is she like this ALL the time?

Here's another o/c example. I give her credit for tying Nathan Bodine around her little finger re. use of the veto. The flirting, the candlelit dinner, Nathan's a** was hers, no doubt.

The next thing you know--right after the dinner--Ali has plunged into the hot tub and surfaced between Justin's legs, with Nate looking right at them. What strategy was involved here? W/ one compulsive move, Ali almost unraveled the excellent work it took to bag Nathan. That he didn't recant his promise has NOTHING to do w/ Ali's game playing and everything to do w/ Nathan's naivete. I'm sorry, I can't read Ali's impulsive hot tub behavior in this instance as "game playing." In fact, it's more like self-sabotage and we do have outside the house information--pagent fiasco, traffic tickets, relationship w/ Donnie, Sigma Chi meat cleaver incident--that Ali has sabotaged herself in RL.

Again, I do not see how you can completely separate the player from the person in any gaming situation from a game of Scrabble between friends to professional athletes. Playing a game does not preclude one from being HUMAN and exhibiting (or not) HUMAN characteristics and until I see evidence to the contrary I'm going to assume that inside-the-house human characteristics (of any player) are the same on the outside.

Just my 2 cents of course.

Earthmother

Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 09:06 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I do agree Steve that we are always seeing some of the real person when we watch these shows, but how many of us in real life are in competition with every single person in our house for a prize 24/7? When I am p**sed off at home and go in my room to spout off, are there cameras there? How often in our daily lives are we encouraged to lie and manipulate for survival? These are not normal circumstances of every-day life and they can not be expected to behave in a completely normal way.
Granted some of them are rude, brassy and downright cruel with their comments and I'm sure some of that is their true personality rearing it's ugly head.

Would I be comfortable becoming friends with some of them? ummmm probably not. Would I trust some of them outside the house based on what I saw them do on TV? ummmm probably not. Do you think Dr. Will is a pathological liar..cuz he sure portryed on BB2? Do you think Lisa is dumb as a rock and loose as a goose with her body..cuz she sure portrayed herself that way last year?

There is no way to know how much of what we see is real and how much is an act. I prefer to give them the benefit of the doubt and hope they are all genuinely nice people in real life.

Meggieprice

Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 09:36 am EditMoveDeleteIP
It was interesting how it was last night for Jun to see herself on the video and seet what a batch she has been (her words). She even questioned why the woman at the VMAs liked her - and Erika said-maybe she likes batches, lol! Ali was upset it showed her hugging someone in a way that might be "misconstrued" by Donny- and speculated he has not been watching (wishful thinking). Think he might "misonstrue" her make out night with Dave?

I think to a certain degree they must lose sight of the fact that they are being watched all the time because I think if JUn and Ali saw one of their slam fests on video they would be mortified.

Gvandeli

Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 10:23 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Does anybody think it's just killing Ali that neigher Jun nor Erika is begging her to keep them? They really haven't talked about it, that I can perceive, since Allison won POV. It must really be ticking her off royally!

Steveh

Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 10:28 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Yes E-mother they are in competition 24/7 so why would that entail completely unnecessary lying and bashing of other contestants. I understand that lying and manipulation are part of the gaming, but houseguests don't have to lie and manipulate ALL of the time. In fact, it works to their disadvantage to do so. Especially when it comes to the jury vote.

Posters argue that Nathan will vote for Alison (if it comes to that) because he "respects" the way she's "played the game." But, IMO, she completely tooled him over (in a RL way too, b/c that money is not "play" money) and if he has any SELF-respect, it will be reflected in his vote against her.

Oddly enough I was just emailing w/ someone who lives in Meadville (Ali's hometown; I too am originally from the Pittsburgh area) and I found out even more about Ali--abusive relationships, resigned a SECOND beauty title under suspicious circumstances, public fights w/ boyfriends, etc.--that seems compatible w/ her behavior in the house.

Also read an interview w/ her mom where mom says what we see on BB tv show & feeds is pretty much Ali save for her terrible temper which she has manaaged to control for the most part.

Being the victim in an abusive relationship is a horrible thing for anyone and just like Robert can't leave his alcoholism behind while he's in the BB house neither can Ali leave behind her victimization (especially since, according to what I've read, she's never been to counselling, kept the relationships secret, etc.). Just as Robert's alcoholism affects EVERYTHING ("game-playing" too) he does, so does Ali's victimization.

Yet another example of RL & game-playing being inseparable.

Earthmother

Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 12:12 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I don't think Nathan will vote for Alison and to be honest if I were in his shoes I wouldn't either. We all want the jury to vote for what we think is the best player, but when you are the one who has been screwed it's hard to see past personal.

Wendo

Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 12:18 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Lost, please keep posting here with your opinions. It's a debate thread, getting an opposite response is likely. I, for one, enjoy all the posts here. (Well most anyway.) :)

Steveh

Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 12:21 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I really don't know what "best player" means. There are those who say that whoever wins the game is the "best player" but I strongly disagree with that. By doing so I am not saying that it's impossible for the "best player" to win the game (no matter the game), but it often doesn't work out that way. Especially with this goofy show. LOL

Wendo

Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 12:28 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Gvandeli, actually, Ali talked to Jun and Erika together (Rob was there too) and told them both that she hadn't made up her mind as to what she was going to do and likely wouldn't until the live show Wednesday. Basically, she told them that there was no point in either of them "begging" because she wouldn't make the decision until Wed.

(However, when on compares the conversations she has with Jun to the ones with Erika, Ali seems to be leaning toward keeping Jun.)

I don't think she wants either of them "begging" her to keep them.

Gina8642

Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 12:50 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
What I'm trying to figure out now is how on to Robert Alison is right now. That is, has she figured out that Robert is campaigning on Erika's behalf. Ali & Jun had a wispered convo this morning soon after waking up. It was rather long and I couldn't catch any of it. I wondered if they discussed this. I have heard Jun throw it out once as a hypothesis, but she didn't back it up with anything.

There is tons to back it up. Sunday evening (maybe Sat?) Erika and Robert were having a strategy session. Robert asked what should he say to Ali to convince her to keep Erika. Erika said to tell her the jury would respect her for getting rid of nasty Jun. Less than 20 minutes later, Robert is saying this exact thing to Alison. If Ali knew how directly this two (Rob/Erika) are working together, I think she would be even more inclined to keep Jun.

Steveh

Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 12:51 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
If Ali doesn't want either Jun or Ericka begging why--ever since she won the veto--has she been asking what Ericka said to Jun and what Jun said to Ericka and what they both said to Robert and just today she implied to Jun that she was surprised (or words to that effect) that Ericka wasn't sucking up more to her?

I LOVED it when at her little meeting Ali told Jun and Ericka that SHE (Ali) was in a "sh***y" position. Uh huh.

Gvandeli

Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 01:10 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Gina-

I think she already is inclined to keep Jun. I think Erika needs to be aggressive to Ali and tell her the things she just told Jun about what she would do if she is evicted. (See Live Feeds) Doesn't do a bit a good for Erika to tell Jun--she isn't going to tell Ali.

Gvandeli

Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 01:17 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
My mistake! Jun did tell Ali. That wasn't very smart!

Meggieprice

Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 01:25 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Why did Erika deny it? She should have said "You promised you would not ever vote against me- why would I vote for you if you do?"

Gina8642

Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 01:29 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Gvandeli-

I think you are right. but I don't think the decision is set in stone right now. I believe she could still easily change her mind. I think knowing how 'teamed up' Erika and Robert are, would cement the decision to boot Erika.

The reason I think you are right is because for the last 24-72 hours Ali's interactions with Jun have been more comfortable and less stilted than those with Erika. No matter how hard Ali tries, her thoughts show in her actions.

However, I don't watch or listen to the feeds 24/7, and even though the LFPs do an amazing and wonderful job of writing up what happens, subtle stuff is still lost. I could be missing stuff between Erika and Ali that may point in a direction favorable to Erika. Everyone of these folks is lying about stuff on an hourly basis, so you can't really tell much from what they are stating now - especially with only 4 HGs. I used to be able to tell, by what they said the majority of time, or to who. But with four, they each are playing each of the others - just can't be sure anymore based soley on what they say.