Archive through September 21, 2003
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TV ClubHouse: Archive: The Jury will question Jun and Alison today 9/20: Archive through September 21, 2003

Gidget

Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 12:21 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
When exactly is Ali supposed to get this education? She is 23. She has completed high school. Attended/completed undergraduate school. Worked in the real world. Traveled for competition, presumably with teams (dance). Appeared at public functions in her pageant capacity.

What school must she attend to become aware that there are other people in the world and those people have feelings?

Most people her age are already embarking on their professional careers or have moved to a level of education that does not involve partying all day and night. Some are raising children.

Choosing to remain a child does not give one the right to be one.

Gina8642

Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 12:27 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Is everyone saying that Ali is the only 23+ year old with her educational background to use that word?

Wendo

Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 12:27 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Actually, I think it's worse when someone let's the use of such a word get by without correction, imo.

I don't recall any of the HG's getting told by BB to not use dueragatory words. If they had, I highly doubt Robert would've continued on with his anti-women comments.

So, I disagree that BB "taught" the HG to not use the word f@g.

By the way, just because I feel she is uneducated does not mean I'm giving her a "free pass" for using the word. Far from it.

Duckie, I'm not trying to make her more humane. I feel she is ignorant, like many of the young 20 year olds I've met in the past few years. Additionally, just because she's part of a local ice skating community doesn't mean she knows gay people.

As far as it not mattering to her, I disagree. She's been taught these words by either her family, friends, or community (and taught that it's ok to use them) and needs to be properly educated that they're not appropriate and to not use them.

Pengoh

Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 12:28 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Not all education is learned in schools. Her parents could teach her, her peers, her employers, the community etc...

Surreal_Badger

Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 12:28 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
as a grad student/college instructor, i hear a lot of people ali's age use the words "f@g," "l@me," "ret@rd"/"ret@rded," usually with a total disconnect to the words' meanings and an utter disregard to these terms' hatefulness.

i say this not to excuse ali's behavior, but to suggest that it is a broader phenomenon that extends beyond the BB house.

Wendo

Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 12:30 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Surreal_Badger, that is also what I was trying to say. Thanks. I appreciate your post.

Gidget

Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 12:33 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I do not see how she can get away with her language except in her particular peer group or family. Anyone else would call her on it. I am willing to bet she knows when to shut up. I guarantee she does not get on stage at a pageant and call the judges f*g*o*s, at least not to their faces.

And that fact alone proves she already knows the difference.

As for BB, it is not their job to correct a houseguest's language, unless it interferes with their ability to produce the show. And the mob mentality of the house would prevent any guest from correcting it, unless they were the majority. I wouldn't give up $500K to teach a sensitivity lesson. Would you?

Livinnafishbowl

Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 12:39 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I dont't think alison is "uneducated" at all in re: to the word she used. I think she simply doesn't care. That much is obvious in the way that she has acted throughout this whole show.

Sanfranjoshfan

Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 12:46 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I distinctly remember that a short time after the HGs started using the f-word to refer to gay men *constantly* (and after this board went nuts with all the discussion on the subject), there was a point when a HG (I believe it was Ali) made another similar remark and then made a comment something like - Oops, I'd better watch it or BB is *really* going to get mad at me.

There was discussion here on TVCH about how it appeared that BB had had a little talk with them. The *constant* use of the f-word for gay men decreased dramatically around that time.

edited to add - I didn't mean to imply that BB "should" be doing the job of teaching them what words to use and what words to avoid.....I am just saying that it appeared that at one point, they *did*.

Meggieprice

Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 12:48 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Ali's words hit me as particularly spiteful this time because it was in reference to two men who are gay. It wasn't the ingnorant use of the word that you see in some kids who have become disconnected from the words they are using. It was a specific slur against specific people.

Eliz87

Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 12:52 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
hmm Badger...I never thought of it that way. I actually describe things as being "lame" quite often and I would NEVER equate it with actual lameness. That is an interesting point. I must add, though, I'm not THAT interested in being politically correct, but I do hope that I'm polite. :-)

Gidget

Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 12:58 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Eliz87, I too have been examining my own use of the word lame. I am anti PC but not anti sensitivity. I am trying to use a different word. Maybe this should go in the Things I Learned thread.

Gay is only a bad word if it is implied being gay is a bad thing. Context and expression are necessary.

Juiceman

Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 01:03 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Wendo - I gotta agree with jbfrommi here.

I understand you are an Alison fan but Alison certainly knows full well how hateful and hurtful she is being. She likes it and does it with premeditation.

I do agree with you that she might be able to grow up and out of it.

Its gonna be a long road though

Surreal_Badger

Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 01:04 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
i don't want to be the pc-sheriff (in the classroom, or on the messageboard) but i do think that all too often, people in positions of privilege -- thru race, sexual orientation, gender, class, physique, etc -- do not SEE oppression. it's not just that ali "doesn't care," it's that she doesn't even notice.

that is part of what i meant in my earlier post by a "disconnect" between words and meaning -- a sort of mental erasure or invisibility of those who aren't "like me."

and clearly, ali has lived her life in a bubble where all she "sees" are those that mirror herself -- white, upper middle class, heterosexual, beauty pageant contestants.

Hamsterlady

Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 01:07 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I don't understand how the word 'lame' can be anti-PC or racist or whatever. The other words, I understand, how they could be used in such a way. But 'lame'? Come on people.

Here is the way that I use the word when I use it: "This is a lame conversation." or "That is so lame."

Definition for my use of this word:

Weak and ineffectual; unsatisfactory:

More examples on use of this word: "a lame attempt to apologize"; "lame excuses for not arriving on time"

Methinks some are being too PC.

Juiceman

Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 01:08 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
by the way - SurrealBadger makes a good point about the way youth uses terms in different context.
Many older people here dont realise that 'Biatches and Ho'es' is a hip-hop catchphrase that does not have the same hateful and misogynist intent when spoken by the youth.

I think Robert was trying to fit in with the younger Jee and Justin ..but it did not sound right when he said it lol!

Having said all that - Alison is using the words 'Cuban ••••••' just as it sounds. 'Cuban ••••••' is Not one of these young people catchprases.

Duckie

Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 01:11 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
OK, I decided to to take an informal survey of my 20 and 23 yr old sons, and this is what they both had to say:
when calling someone f**, it depends on the actual person they are talking about. If it not being used as gay terminology, they mean it to be stupid or an idiot. but when asked if they thought it nice, they both said no, they shouldn't say it, but they just do, knowing it is not good.

That being said, while it may be a common usage of the word, I still have no reason to doubt that both ali and jun know it is wrong to use it.
But it did put things a little more in perspective for me. (besides telling my boys if I heard them, watch out for the soap LOL)

Sanfranjoshfan

Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 01:21 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Here's an interesting article: "That is so gay"

http://www.geocities.com/ouprideforum/thatisgay.html

Btw, if you do a google search using this as the search criteria (with the quotes): "That is so gay", you'll find a whole host of observations and opinions on this phrase.

Moderator

Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 02:05 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
A good number of personal attacks against other posters have been removed from this thread. Please do not attack each other. Discuss the topic of the thread or simply read the discussion and move on.

If we missed anything here, we apologize in advanceas it was not intentional.

Continued attacks on each other will result in this thread being removed permanently.

Thank you.

TVCH Moderator

Murph

Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 02:20 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I hope someone else heard this conversation between Jun and Ali last night in case I get something wrong in the translation.

When we came back from FOTH and Jun and Ali were discussing TAR. Ali referred to Reichen and Chip as those two "fa@@s. Jun then said something about the gay guys and that her "friend" knew one of them. Jun said they are both "Hot" and Ali said "what a waste." Jun then told a story about being in the fifth grade and a boy named "Ralph" slapping her across the face and knocking her glasses off. She then ran into him years later and his is now gay. Ali responded "a flamer." That was a new one for me. After the next long FOTH Ali came on and said "oh, the gay guys won."

I do remember in a conversation several days ago Jun said something about what her gay friends would think...I took it to mean she had gay friends. I maybe totally wrong in my interpretation of how Jun meant gay in that matter.

What does this mean??? You really knows but IMO both know what the terms mean and how they "should" be used in conversation.

Notorioussun

Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 02:26 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Thank You Mod.

Jbfrommi

Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 02:28 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Me thinks you're right, Murph!

Jbfrommi

Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 02:29 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
oops, I forgot to say a big thanks to the moderator!

Gidget

Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 02:32 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Great post Badger. Interesting perspective.

Hamsterlady, lame was previously used for physically challenged. If I was in a wheel chair, I might take exception to the word. So I have decided to curtail MY use of the word. I am not the PC police. And I am pretty thick skinned about words. But I realize not everyone share my point of view, so I try.

Stardust

Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 02:40 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I just want to add that I think Ali using the term "fa**ot" towards two gay men, simply means Ali is ignorant. I also remember her phrase "that's why all the black boys love me"...ignorant. I bet you she knows exactly what she is saying, what it means, but too ignorant to reazlize how wrong it is.

By the way, I am a 25yr. female, and just wanted to add that using the phrase "that is so gay" or whatever is commonly used in the younger generation as meaning "that is so stupid"...or saying "you are so gay" meaning "you are so stupid" but only referring to someone who is not actually gay. Don't ask me why it's used this way, it just is. LOL The phrase is not used in a racist way. But, Ali saying "those f*gs"...well that is racist...Ali=racist Ali=ignorant