Archive through September 08, 2003
TV ClubHouse: Archive: Alison's Debate Thread (ARCHIVES):
Archive through September 08, 2003
Wendo | Monday, September 08, 2003 - 06:16 pm     Meggie, As I said in my last post, and as Earthmother pointed out, she's not obligated to tell them anything. And, if she wants to tell them they're both safe to keep them pacified and off her back until Wed. then that is her choice. I don't see why it makes her a bad person because she's not telling them what her intentions are. She told them both together she hasn't decided, but one of them will be going. She has no choice, it's a vote she has to make. And, it's entirely possible she DOES know what she's doing. But again, so what. She's not required to tell either of them. This is the game they are playing. |
Steveh | Monday, September 08, 2003 - 06:18 pm     But, but, but Wendo . . . You ARE judging Ali. It's just that your judgment of her is positive. But that hair-splitting aside, what else would one be doing in an Alison debate thread besides offering their opinions/judgments/etc. of Ali? I know, I know--you're going to say that you're judging her as a "game player," as if she's created a BB persona, completely divorced from her RL persona, as if there is a complete separation from "real life" and the BB house life. Tell me some of the "unreal" things the guests have done in the BB house. Have they stopped eating and drinking, going to the bathroom, whining and bitching (like all of us do)? They are real people in contrived circumstances, but doesn't that sort of thing happen all the time in RL. Aren't many RL circumstances contrived, rule-governed, etc.? I do agree that no one has said that contestants must display compassion, empathy and understanding to compete. In fact, what ARE the "rules" for what contestants must do? IMO, compassion, empathy and understanding would be positive trait for a BB guest to have. S/he wouldn't always have to act on them, but isn't UNDERSTANDING your fellow competitors essential to formulating good gaming strategy? Wouldn't walking a mile in their shoes (metaphorically) help dictate what you might do or not do when it came to interacting with them? Wouldn't the ability to be empathetic or sympathetic be a good thing for a guest to possess (even is s/he didn't allow it to manifest itself in behavior), by way of "knowing" his/her enemy? Then you say as a "contestant" she isn't "following the same moral compass w/in the game that others would follow." I don't know what the last quoted passage here means (and I'm not being sarcastic) but again I ask you: What are the 180 degree differences between a "contestant" and a person that you continue to mention without elaborating? How does one affect this separation? Are you saying that Ali treats ants w/ TLC on the outside (just one of thousands of such questions that I have)? I don't believe I've ever used the word "bad" when it comes to Ali as a game player since I really don't know what would constitute a good and bad player of BB. In my opinion--with the exception of Will (the only one who ever had a long range strategy)--all the BB contestants in all seasons have flown by the seat of their pants. Ali got to where she is b/c she did the compulsive, spur of the moment shtick better than most of the other contestants, but what kind of strategy has it taken to outwit Nathan, Michelle, etc. What were THEIR strategies? I HAVE said that she's the most despicable guest ever and I'll stand by that until I see something that might indicate otherwise. You say I have "nothing" to go on as a basis for my conclusions but I say I have plenty (I've detailed my supporting examples in many other posts). On the other hand, what do you have to go on that "tells" you that Ali is "just playing the game," that she's a "good" person? Where is any substantive support for that opinion? How do you explain her gratuitous lying, namecallling and acting out? How has any of that kind of behavior helped her get to the final four? Just because she's there doesn't mean that she's played well or had a strategy; it could just as well mean that what she's done has merely been less ineffective than what all of those eliminated have done. |
Wendo | Monday, September 08, 2003 - 06:19 pm     Earthmother said, "I must be missing something because I don't see any of that frightening behavior this year, not even from Scott who tossed around a few chairs, that I have seen in past bbs." I agree. I see nothing worse in this years HG's then I've seen in past BB's. And, especially the times Marcellus and Amy would go off. I think because Marcellus and Amy were funny about it and phrased their comments to be humerous, it was easier for viewers to shrug off the comments and insults they made. But just because they say it and you laugh, doesn't mean it wasn't bad mouthing. I'll be back...gonna go shower. Don't want to stink up the board!  |
Earthmother | Monday, September 08, 2003 - 06:23 pm     If I were in Ali's position right now there is no way I would tell them anything. She has no idea what might happen prior to Wed. What if Jun decides to hook up with Robert? May never happen but Ali doesn't know that, she can't trust either one of them. What if Erika starts saying really nasty things about the Jury? May not happen, but Ali can't risk it..She is there to win money, she needs to do what's best for her...as it has been pointed out, she hasn't made friends so she needs to make this a profitable venture whether we like it or not... |
Meggieprice | Monday, September 08, 2003 - 06:39 pm     I actually think it would serve her to be honest, not just that I think it would be kind. To promise safety and then to betray live on Wednesday...well I think telling nasty things TO the jusry is what Ali should be fearing. If she deviated from her usual strategy and acted with compassion then the evictee might actually be let down easy and would not IMO be as likely to hit jury full of rage. |
Steveh | Monday, September 08, 2003 - 07:07 pm     I agree that Alison telling contradictory things to all of the remaining competitors is terrible strategy AND a terrible way for one human to treat other humans. She has told Robert that she doesn't know who she's evicting. She's told Jun that she's evicting Ericka. She's told Ericka that she doesn't know who she's evicting but said it in a different tone than the one she used w/ Robert (implying something different?). It's not NICE and it's not good strategy. However, sometimes not being nice (Alison's consistent behavior in any given situation) works out to be good strategy. One thing I'm puzzled about: How does (accurately) pointing out bad behavior by other houseguests past and present work as a defense of Alison? What's the bad behavior of other people have to do with the bad behavior of Alison? Finally, being in the final four doesn't necessarily equal good game playing. What if you gathered together a group of 13 people to run the 100 yd. dash (the worlds' record is like 9 seconds flat) and the four best times were 10 minutes, 14 minutes, 15 minutes and a half-hour? So now these four are the final four. Did any of them run a good race? |
Wendo | Monday, September 08, 2003 - 07:28 pm     Steveh said, "But, but, but Wendo . . . You ARE judging Ali. It's just that your judgment of her is positive. But that hair-splitting aside, what else would one be doing in an Alison debate thread besides offering their opinions/judgments/etc. of Ali?" No, I'm not. Please don't assume what I'm doing. I've made it quite clear that I'm judging Ali the BB game player, not Ali the real life person. As I said, I wouldn't presume to. You can choose to do so, that's your choice, I do not. I am in the Alison debate thread to debate her game playing. "I know, I know--you're going to say that you're judging her as a "game player," as if she's created a BB persona, completely divorced from her RL persona, as if there is a complete separation from "real life" and the BB house life. " Steve, we've had this debate before and it's clear that we view the HG's differently. You choose to see the HG's behaviors in the house as behaviors they would exhibit outside the house. I do not. Period. The HG's are in an unusual and contrived situation. And people under such abnormal situations will change or adopt behaviors they normally will not. You disagree. Fine. "Tell me some of the "unreal" things the guests have done in the BB house. Have they stopped eating and drinking, going to the bathroom, whining and bitching (like all of us do)? They are real people in contrived circumstances, but doesn't that sort of thing happen all the time in RL. Aren't many RL circumstances contrived, rule-governed, etc.?" Well, I would say many of the competitions aren't situations they would encounter in real life. Standing for a length of time in a mock jail cell. There are situations that occur within the BB house that do not occur to people in day to day life. You can argue that my opinion is wrong, that's fine, but I don't believe it so. Nor am I trying to convince you your opinion is wrong. The difference between me and you is that I'm willing to allow the HG's some leeway on their behavior because they are in a situation that has no basis in their everyday life. And yes, contrived circumstances do happen in real life. However, as I've said, BB is a contrived situation that has no real life example. (Except for other reality shows such as Survivor.) "I do agree that no one has said that contestants must display compassion, empathy and understanding to compete. In fact, what ARE the "rules" for what contestants must do?" The "rules" for BB have always been, imo, there are no rules to how you play the game. The only rules you must abide by are BB's rules, as well as not threatening your other HG. However, BB has never said outright what the rules are. I would argue that, those HG's still in the house are following the rules, no matter what they are. "IMO, compassion, empathy and understanding would be positive trait for a BB guest to have. S/he wouldn't always have to act on them, but isn't UNDERSTANDING your fellow competitors essential to formulating good gaming strategy? Wouldn't walking a mile in their shoes (metaphorically) help dictate what you might do or not do when it came to interacting with them? Wouldn't the ability to be empathetic or sympathetic be a good thing for a guest to possess (even is s/he didn't allow it to manifest itself in behavior), by way of "knowing" his/her enemy?" Compassion, empathy and understanding are positive traits, especially if they're exhibited in a BB HG. However, they're not required nor necessary. As far as understanding, I would argue that Ali has shown she does understand her fellow HG. She's in the final 4. She knew that Erika and Robert were working together. And she knew that getting this last POV was imperative. Empathy, however, can work both ways. Empathy could easily cost one the game. For instance, if Ali chose to be empathetic toward Erika and keep her in the game, she wold likely lose to Erika in the end. Also, empathy and sympathy can be useful with regard to the jury. And, as I said, Ali will have to deal with the consequences of her game playing. However, again, I would argue that Ali (as well as Jun) have known their opponents the best in the game. "Then you say as a "contestant" she isn't "following the same moral compass w/in the game that others would follow." I don't know what the last quoted passage here means (and I'm not being sarcastic) but again I ask you: What are the 180 degree differences between a "contestant" and a person that you continue to mention without elaborating? How does one affect this separation? Are you saying that Ali treats ants w/ TLC on the outside (just one of thousands of such questions that I have)?" By moral compass I mean that there are game actions Ali has done in the house that I, morally, would not do were I playing BB. As far as your comment, "What are the 180 degree differences between a "contestant" and a person that you continue to mention without elaborating?", Ali is a contestant. Period. And, I have mentioned Ali specifically, so I don't know what you're trying to say. Basically, each viewer is going to have their own set of rules on how they would play the BB game. Some HG's (contestents) are going to fit within those rules and some aren't. Ali is one who doesn't. Nothing more to say. "I don't believe I've ever used the word "bad" when it comes to Ali as a game player since I really don't know what would constitute a good and bad player of BB. In my opinion--with the exception of Will (the only one who ever had a long range strategy)--all the BB contestants in all seasons have flown by the seat of their pants. Ali got to where she is b/c she did the compulsive, spur of the moment shtick better than most of the other contestants, but what kind of strategy has it taken to outwit Nathan, Michelle, etc. What were THEIR strategies?" I've never said you've called Ali bad, per se. Only that you're equating her game actions to how she would behave in real life. As I said, that's your choice, not mine. I'm not going to say that Ali wouldn't be a good friend, or a good person, etc., because of the game moves she's chosen to make in the game; despite the fact they would be moves I would not make. As for Ali having a long range strategy, I would argue that she likely did have one. But once her ex came in, that went out the window and she has had to weave and dodge in the game. However, she has made strategic moves that benefited her place in the game. An example being when Jee was HOH the last time. She strategically placed herself within their "alliance" to keep herself off the block, thus allowing her to vote Jack out rather than Erika. You may not see that as strategy but I do. Again, so we disagree. "I HAVE said that she's the most despicable guest ever and I'll stand by that until I see something that might indicate otherwise. You say I have "nothing" to go on as a basis for my conclusions but I say I have plenty (I've detailed my supporting examples in many other posts). On the other hand, what do you have to go on that "tells" you that Ali is "just playing the game," that she's a "good" person? Where is any substantive support for that opinion? How do you explain her gratuitous lying, namecallling and acting out?" And, that's your right to call her despicable. Though, how that makes you better than the bad mouthing the HG's have participated in is beyond me. I never said you had no basis to conclude that you find her a despicable person. However, I clarify it by saying it's within the game. I do not take it out of the house. Additionally, I've never said she's a good or bad person. Only that I think she's a good game player. Big difference. My belief that she's a good game player comes from the moves and actions she's made in the game. As far as Ali just playing the game, well, duh, she is playing a game. Why else would she be there. However, as I've said, over and over, I CHOOSE not to presume who the HG are outside the construct of the game. Period. I do not know how I can elaborate any further. "How has any of that kind of behavior helped her get to the final four? Just because she's there doesn't mean that she's played well or had a strategy; it could just as well mean that what she's done has merely been less ineffective than what all of those eliminated have done." Steve, you can state that Ali has done nothing to get herself to the final four and that she's only there because of luck. However, again, I disagree. Ali has taken an active role in her game playing to get herself to where she is now. She has won HOH when it was necessary. Won POV when it was necessary. Gain the confidence of Nate so he would use POV to save her, when it was necessary. Told Justin he would never put him up, then not put him up and earning his trust. So that when he was HOH the next week, he didn't put her up. It's apparent as well that we view her strategy differently. What I view as strategy, you view as luck. Again, you're opinion, I just agree. |
Earthmother | Monday, September 08, 2003 - 08:20 pm     Ohhhhh filabustering...lol |
Wendo | Monday, September 08, 2003 - 08:39 pm     Earthmother. What can I say, I'm wordy. LOL! |
Butterflyer22 | Monday, September 08, 2003 - 09:01 pm     I'm sorry if this has been discussed. But, maybe Ali is waiting to make her choice between Erika and Jun because she is hoping to get a look(peek through the covered windows) at the HOH competition and get an idea as to which gal she could beat at that competition. Just an off the wall idea!! |
Meggieprice | Monday, September 08, 2003 - 09:18 pm     Someone mentioned in another thread looking at BB through Jun colored glasses (in that particular case) and i think it is safe to say that you look through Ali colored glasses, Wendo, just as I look through Erika colored glasses. I was thinking that as I read your long so carefully well thought out missive- someone like me without those glasses just isn't going to see it that way! Since this is a thread essentially for people who do not like Ali I think it is probably true that most who come here are not wearing them... Somehow I found that very comforting and it made sense to me. |
Wendo | Monday, September 08, 2003 - 09:26 pm     I disagree Meggie, I do not look at Ali through Ali colored glasses; despite attempts by other posters to claim so. If I were viewing Ali that way, I would find everything about Ali positive and would be staunchly defending her. However, that's not the case. And, if you re-read my many posts on Ali I point out many things about her which I don't like. Certain ways she's played the game, using her sexuality to manipulate, etc. And, no offense, but I really resent being told how I view a particular HG. I have no problem if you disagree with my missives here or in other threads; especially with regard to Ali. In fact, I do like reading opposing positions. But I would ask that how I view a HG not be inferred to be a certain way. Thanks. Lastly, this thread is not essentially for people who do not like Ali. On the contrary, it's for people to debate Ali's game playing as well as the "pro and con of (her) character" within the BB environment. (See thread description above by the moderators.) |
Gina8642 | Monday, September 08, 2003 - 09:35 pm     This isn't a thread for people who do not like Alison. It is a thread for people who want to debate Alison. The good, the bad, and the ugly. I always like to hear both sides. This would be a very boring place if all this thread was for was to bash someone. If any one thinks threads dedicated to bashing and not liking should try SS's Big Brother site. IMO - It is totally lame because all anyone does is rip on the HGs. When they bore with that they rip on fellow posters. You'll really get a feel for why this is such a great place to post and why threads dedicated to bashing are just lame!!! |
Meggieprice | Monday, September 08, 2003 - 09:40 pm     I disagree too! I think you can look through Ali colored glasses without approving of and defending everything she does or even thinking you would be her friend. It is called a bias, and in my opinion you do have a bit of one when it comes to Ali. I don't think that is bad- I think that is a natural by priduct of watching these shows- we get a favorite and we are biased towards them. That is of course what I would think your bias is as I do not share it. You would probably think I have a bias towards Erika, that is what I meant. I am not implying that you think Ali is perfect or approve of her completely- that wouldn't be Ali colored (by this I infer tinted) glasses, that would be Ali blinders. No intention to make you resent me fer heaven's sake! When you state opinions I think people will form an impression of what you think- isn't that why we tell each other things? This is what I got from your 19 paragraph post above- I am not supposed to draw any conclusions about what you think? That is how communication works imo. Edited to add I reread about the thread and I am totally wrong and apologize- if you all notice I havent used it to trash anyone. I do not tend to do that. |
Wendo | Monday, September 08, 2003 - 09:52 pm     Meggie, I am not looking at Ali through Ali colored glasses, nor do I have a bias toward her over any other HG. I don't know how I can explain it any further. In fact, I view all the HG's equally, including the good and bad parts of them. It may be your opinion that I have a bias, but you're making an opinion about me and my personal view of a HG. And, I'm clearly stating I do not have a bias toward Ali, Jun, Erika or Rob. If Ali were to get booted out in third place, then so be it. Her game wasn't that good since it didn't get her to the F2. Additionally, I've never stated that I have a favorite this year. And, to be quite honest, I don't. Whether you choose to believe that is up to you. Further, I don't think you have a bias toward Erika. I know you like her, you've stated as much. I've stated that I've enjoyed Ali's game playing but that there's a great deal I don't like about her. (A great deal.) Lastly, I didn't say I resented you. I said I resented the implication that I'm not being objective when it comes to Ali. You've formed an impression of what I think about Ali, that I view her through Ali colored glasses. I'm telling you I do not. You can disagree with an opinion of mine, I expect that in a debate thread. However, you're making an assertion as to how I view Ali and I'm saying that it's not true. |
Meggieprice | Monday, September 08, 2003 - 10:00 pm     I give up! I guess I will just say I have never seen you defend any of the others and I do find you defending her quite often. If you say you are not biased towards her then I will say that you need to understand there have been reasons that would lead me to erroneously believe that and believe me when I say that I know you tell the truth. Meanwhile I am watching Bravo and getting bummed out about how maipulated we all are! For all we know they are all working from a script anyway! |
Caycaye | Monday, September 08, 2003 - 10:10 pm     Steveh....THANK YOU for putting soooo eloquently what I have felt about Ali since I first saw her deviousness and disloyalty. She IS by FAR...the MOST DESPICABLE houseguest EVER on a BB. When people DARE to compare her game-playing to Will...or Danielle...or JUN for that matter...I CRINGE....Jun NEVER pretended to be Erika or Nathan's BEST FRIEND and deliberately betrayed them and GLOATED about it in the Diary Room. I really think Ali is evil. She ENJOYS other people's pain....by INVENTING gossip about each and every one of them so she doesn't have a TWINGE of conscience....Nathan - GAY (she can get rid of HIM)....Jack - Pervy Old Man (she can betray HIM)....Erika - Fake Boob Bi+ch who doesn't need the money (She can easily Betray her)...Again I state,,,Ali's stories are Libelous and VICIOUS and untrue...and YES....DESPICABLE!!! |
Gina8642 | Monday, September 08, 2003 - 10:15 pm     Tell us how you really feel Caycaye! LOL |
Caycaye | Monday, September 08, 2003 - 10:15 pm     And Wendo...biased or not...I feel that you have overlooked the fact that for all of the other "bad guy" players over the years...there was atleast ONE person that they were loyal to, atleast for a good while. Ali has NEVER been truly loyal to anyone. NOBODY has to INTENTIONALLY make up false rumors about people and spread them, so as to not look so bad for betraying them...It is a sad, sick game that Ali has probably always done her whole life to the unfortunates that she is jealous of....(We have all known an EVIL cheerleader or two..just like Ali) |
Caycaye | Monday, September 08, 2003 - 10:17 pm     Sorry Gina...but I have been sitting here for weeks...just reading these discussions...and I felt the need only two days ago to start replying to some of the people...Ali <> and there is no two ways about it...and YES..that is how I feel! |
Wendo | Monday, September 08, 2003 - 10:18 pm     Meggie, I think you're misinterpreting defending Ali versus defending game play. I defend Ali's game play, even though it's game play I would not partake in. And, I would add, I defend all the HG's game play because, it's allowed under the rules BB has set forth. If they weren't following the rules, then they would not be there. (ie: Scott.) As to defending Ali's game play versus the other HG's game play, that's because Ali gets the most "play" on this board. Erika, Rob, and Jun's game play hasn't been picked apart nor dissected any where near Ali's has. That's all. You have to agree that the majority of topics that have debate are Ali related. I tend to gravitate where the conversation is. For instance, Erika. (I know, this is the Ali thread. Give me some leeway here. LOL!) I think Erika's game play has been flawless, up to this point. Becuase she's played SO flawlessly, none of the remaining players wish to go up against her in a F2 battle. (Barring Rob right now. Though most of the game it was opposite. But he lost all his buddies so, Erika is all he has left.) Anyway, I like Erika because she has played the game in a very subtle way. As well as winning competitions that were necessary (up until now.) However, I don't like the fact that she seems to have given up any attempt at saving herself with Ali as well as leaving her destiny to Rob. Which is a mistake in my opinion because, only you can be your best advocate. Heck, despite Robert's less than appealing comments about women, his game playing has been pretty good to a certain extent. He hid behind bigger threats and won an HOH that was do or die for him. However, I don't think he has a good grasp of his opponents. I would argue that he doesn't know them at all. He assumes things about Ali of which he's completely off base. (Erika too.) Last year I did become emotionally involved and biased toward a certain HG. When I began watching this year, I specifically did it with the intention of not developing a favorite or not so favorite so I would not become emotionally involved. I can say flat out that I dig all the houseguests; and I don't dig the houseguests. But what I dig and don't dig has to do with their game playing. In fact, I would agree that I was anti-biased toward Rob early in the game because I was so taken aback by his comments about women. However, now, nope, not at all. My Bravo is TiVo-ing right now. Will watch it later so I can zip through the commercials. I can't watch regular tv with commercials anymore because of the TiVo. The TiVo has spoiled me. |
Crossfire | Monday, September 08, 2003 - 10:21 pm     I know what Wendo's saying. I'm doing the same thing this year. I'm still recovering from defending Roddy last year. |
Wendo | Monday, September 08, 2003 - 10:23 pm     Actually, Caycaye, I would argue that Ali has been loyal to at least one person in the game; herself. Additionally, to call Ali evil is a bit over the top don't you think? We've seen truly evil people in the world and to say that Ali is anywhere near them is rather extreme, no matter how much you dislike her. JMO. |
Caycaye | Monday, September 08, 2003 - 10:25 pm     Well Wendo...I have tried to do the same thing this year...Amy was my favorite...But Ali has gone beyond what is necessary to win, so In my opinion, she has NOT played a good game..just a MEANER one...and as far as Robert...I TOTALLY agree with your assessment of him from beginning to end, and if he wins..he will deserve it. |
Meggieprice | Monday, September 08, 2003 - 10:37 pm     Gotcha! I see, yes I finally see, and to be honest I never thought you were at all biased towards Ali as a person- I do mean game play for you. Maybe the problem is that many people, myself included, have more trouble than you do separating the person from the game play. If I was better at it I would absolutely be supporting her all the way (and wouldn't be disappointed so often!) because her game has been awesome. I did need you to point out the difference though- it has been an aha moment. OT- I have Replay TV and we are having problems with it- so I watched just in case- haven't had time to take it in because we may lose the contents and want to videotape some things first. TIVO/Replay- once you have had them you do not know what you would do without them!!! Edited to add- in many ways Ali is the player I have been expecting and wanting since the first season- someone who would do anything and say anything to get to the prize without looking back.Last year the whole thing about honesty made me laugh. I used to think I wanted to see that and she has shown me that I personally don't care for that style! lol! |
|