The "turning point" of the game....
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TV ClubHouse: Archive: The "turning point" of the game....

Wilsonatmd

Thursday, September 11, 2003 - 08:25 am EditMoveDeleteIP
now that we're 90% sure of the final two (I just don't see Robert winning part 2 of the HOH, and he's gone no matter if Jun or Ali win HOH......even if he wins part 2, I don't think he can win part 3 either)

I'd like to know, what do you feel was the turning point of the entire game? What one decision or other thing lead to Jun and Ali almost assuredly making the final two?

To me, it was very early on.......When Michelle was evicted over Erika. It helped galvanize the Jack/Erika alliance. If Erika had gone, I think Jack would have followed soon after (and not have made the jury)....The stooges plus Dana (and a grateful Michelle) would have controlled the game from then on so long as one of them won HOH from then on (and the odds would improve every week), since they would have the majority. Ali might have been able to save herself for a couple of weeks, but she would have gone. Jun would stay for a while longer, but not make it to the final three. Dana still would have self destructed, and she would have gone later, but the Stooges wouldn't need her by then. Michelle would be the one kept till she was a problem, and I think that would have been the final four. Yes, I think, if Michelle had stayed and Erika had been evicted.....The final three would have been the Stooges. If only because Erika was the one who broke them up when she was HOH.

Stingerman

Thursday, September 11, 2003 - 08:40 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I think if Nathan hadn't used the POV on ALi then there would have been an entirely different outcome.

For me that was the turning point in the game.

Gina8642

Thursday, September 11, 2003 - 08:44 am EditMoveDeleteIP
There's lots of potential 'turning points'. Each one is especially important in creating this particular outcome. I agree with Stingerman that one of the most important is Nathan saving Alison.

Cajunrambler

Thursday, September 11, 2003 - 08:44 am EditMoveDeleteIP
If Ali wins this thing, I wonder if she will show Nathan any appreciation for taking her off the block. To me that was the turning point.

If Gerry wouldn't have used the veto on Marcellas, we wouldn't have enjoyed the Marc/Amy show.

Katlady53

Thursday, September 11, 2003 - 08:44 am EditMoveDeleteIP
That darn Nate.....

Puzzled

Thursday, September 11, 2003 - 08:51 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I agree, Stinger. Nathan completely misread Ali.

Charvie

Thursday, September 11, 2003 - 08:56 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Actually the night before Nathan saved Alison he told Alison exactly what she would do and Alison admitted to Nathan that the first chance that Justin let her be on his team she would and that as long as Justin was in the house she was only playing the game 80%.

Crazydog

Thursday, September 11, 2003 - 08:56 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Definitely Nathan using the veto. Had he not used the veto, David would have stayed in the house. Alison would have been evicted.

If someone from Nathan's alliance had won HoH, then it's likely that Justin would have been evicted. Dana and Jun are the floaters and probably join Jee and Robert.

If Nathan had not used the veto, I see the final three being David, Erika and Jack.

I would have been a lot happier. At this point, I am rooting only for Jun. The odds are not great.

Crossfire

Thursday, September 11, 2003 - 09:09 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Jee leaving the cage was also a significant event. Had he not done that, the DT with their strong loyalties would probably be the final three.

Crazydog

Thursday, September 11, 2003 - 09:23 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I agree it was significant, but I really don't think Jee would have lasted much longer in the cage. Nobody was going to be able to beat Erika or Alison.

Rhett

Thursday, September 11, 2003 - 09:36 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Without a doubt, Nate using the veto to save Ali.

Torch

Thursday, September 11, 2003 - 09:58 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Bigger than Nate's decision to save Ali was Dana's decision to not put Nate on the block with Ali.

When playing BB you don't leave anything to chance if you can help it, Dana knew this and later asked outloud what was she thinking not putting Nate up with Ali.

Nate would have saved himself and Ali would (most likely) have been evicted.

Deniselynne

Thursday, September 11, 2003 - 10:53 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I have thought this over and over. I really think if Robert wanted Ali to save Erika he would have told Miss Ali about all those night of trashing the "Blondes" when Dana was HoH. And how Jun was a key player in all the hatred that went around.

Mpls

Thursday, September 11, 2003 - 11:11 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I'm just wondering what effect Scott staying in the house would have had on the game?

He came across as volatile even before the chair tossing deal. I think he may have gone off on a few of the floaters had he been in the game a bit longer.

I'd have like to seen that. I have always hoped one of the guests in these seasons just exposed everybody's bs in a fit of anger. Kent to a small degree did that with Hardy.

R151996

Thursday, September 11, 2003 - 11:16 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I don't think one single event can be pointed at as the turning point. The pivotal week of the series was from Dana winning HOH up through Ali winning HOH.

Key points--
1) Dana winning HOH when others players were eliminated
2) Dana telling Ali she was safe and then nominating her
3) Dana failing to nominate Nathan with Ali
4) Dana nominating Jack with Ali, splitting the house into the two major alliances with room for "floaters" in the middle--Ali and Jun's path to this point in the game
5) Nathan agreeing to use the veto on Ali before the "Niagara Balls" veto competition took place
6) Nathan winning the veto
7) Ali's temporary falling out with Nathan after her hottub encounter with Justin, Ali telling Nathan not to save her, and Nathan deciding to save her anyway
8) Nathan using the veto
9) Ali winning the next HOH to nominate and evict Dana

Duncan

Thursday, September 11, 2003 - 12:32 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Wouldn't EVERY eviction be a turning point? Each person bringing their own personalities into the mix while one personality is removed would mean that in each eviction, if the other person had stayed, the entire game would be different.

(Well...except maybe for Michelle...I'm not even sure she was ever really there in the first place)

Cantremember

Thursday, September 11, 2003 - 01:11 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I have to say that Nate using the Veto was the biggest event that kept Ali in the house.

Someone said that Jee leaving the cage was a big event but IMHO Jee messed up everytime he was head of house and his third time would not have been different (ie he would not have put up Jun or Allison who are the final 2 girls).

Shonda

Thursday, September 11, 2003 - 01:57 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I think I agree with Wilson. Though Nate pulling Ali off the block was a big forehead slapper, Michelle being evicted drew the line in the sand. It was at that point that the Stooges realized they were on their own.

Imz

Friday, September 12, 2003 - 02:21 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Ali separated from her alliance and started off on her own when she did not nominate Justin for eviction. Huge turning point.

Steveh

Friday, September 12, 2003 - 03:23 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Based on overall impact re. where we are now, Stingerman, IMO, is right. Everything tilted, flipped and twisted when Nate saved Ali. Everything after that was completely scrambled because that's when the terrible force known as Ali started to gather momentum. I think she's gonna win the half-mill, I really do.

Justalittlebean

Friday, September 12, 2003 - 03:45 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
yep, Ali has Nate to thank for making it this far.

Professorchaos

Friday, September 12, 2003 - 06:29 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
The originals evicting Amanda instead of Jee was also a significant (and stupid) move.

Nate didn't want to get rid of Jee because he promised him that he was safe. So what? He would have only had one minute before he had to leave the house, and he wouldn't have had a vote anyway as one of the first three evictees.

Wendo

Friday, September 12, 2003 - 08:07 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I would argue that Dana winning HOH, leaving the original alliance and joining with the ex's was significant. That's when the game significantly changed. The originals no longer had clear control. A clear division was established in the house (HG's not allowed to talk with other HG's.) Additionally, she neglected to put Nate up with Ali, which enabled Ali to stay in the game. After which, Ali then won the next HOH, didn't nominate Justin (earning his trust), evicting Dana, and clearing a path to "align" with the stooges.

So, IMO, it wasn't really Nate who started the chain of events, it was Dana. Nate merely reacted to what Dana had already set in motion.

Onlyhuman

Friday, September 12, 2003 - 08:29 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Wendo, I see your point, but I think that division in the house goes back to the line in the sand, as Wilson first pointed out.

Up until the flipped vote, the stooges and everyone else had multiple alliances in the house. There were all kinds of back-up plans for each person. We were going crazy trying to keep track of the shifting alliances. Yes, the O8 was the big one, but think about how may suballiances there were.

With the eviction of Michelle, all of that came to an abrupt halt. All of the lies and suballiances were brought out into the open (with the exception of Jee & Jun). What's more, just 2 days before that eviction, Dana became aware that her place in her own alliance was exceedingly shaky, since she had been left out of all the plotting. Her own alliance even tried to get her evicted OVER one of the exes.

If the O8 had not flipped the vote, Dana would not have become aware of how unstable the ground was that she was standing on. The stooges would not have realized how desperately they needed Dana on their side. I doubt that Dana would have wanted to upset all of the others at that point, so while she wouldn't have put up Justin, she probably would have put up Robert and Jee, just to secure her place.

Though people like to blame Dana for setting the rule of not being able to talk to others, it did not end with her eviction. They carried that on for quite a while because they felt betrayed and disgusted with the others. What's more, long after Dana was gone, the stooges could not bring themselves to trust Jack and Erika, because they had already been burned by Jack once. So, while they COULD HAVE and SHOULD HAVE joined forces with Jack & Erika to get rid of Jun and Ali, the mistrust engendered by that first move colored their every choice after.

Everybody's choices go back to that vote. It established the fact that people were untrustworthy. It brought alliances out into the open and demonstrated that the stooges and Dana were short-timers if things didn't change. It allowed Jun and Ali to establish themselves as floaters because both sides desperately needed all of the votes they could get. If Dave & Nate had let Erika go, they might be in the final 3 today. You just don't know.

Wendo

Friday, September 12, 2003 - 09:26 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Excellent points Onlyhuman. A chain reaction began with that one crucial eviction, and each subsequent event pushed the chain reaction along. Very interesting.

What555456

Saturday, September 13, 2003 - 09:24 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I think the biggest turning point was when BB decided to make sure the power shifted from the strong side to the weak side each week.

It seems to me that BB has played a much stronger role in dictating this year's events than in any previous years. Maybe this is good, maybe bad. I for one, though, have found this year far less interesting than previous years and wonder if it is just the choice of the cast or if it was BB's strong arm involvement in the outcome of the game.

It has all just seemed too scripted to me, which makes it far less interesting.