Final 2 - Jun and Ali
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TV ClubHouse: Archive: Final 2 - Jun and Ali
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Archive through September 18, 2003 25   09/18 11:27am

Missapril

Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 05:07 am EditMoveDeleteIP
SInce they were in two different relationships during different time periods, it's not like they could 'cheat' by looking at each other's answers. Pick pick pick... so little substance.

Geri

Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 06:26 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Miss April, they certainly could cheat. They know how long each other was in their relationships, they've discussed it before. Jun was making sure that her guess was further off than Ali's.

Needmylifeback

Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 06:32 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I agree with Philamom...Ali having dated for about 6 months had to pick a number between 0 and 182....Jun having dated Jee for about 6 years had to pick a number between 0 and 2190....and then factor in what the "X's" might say..The only way Ali couldn't have won that tie-breaker...is if Justin had said something in the millions...If Ali had gone over a year to miss it (say 366)...she still would have been closer than if Jun had said 2000....

Wendo

Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 06:41 am EditMoveDeleteIP
The question of whether the tie breaker was fair or unfair is moot since both knew what they were doing. Jun was going to throw it by making sure she would go over what Jee would say. Ali was making sure she would win it by writing 0. Thus, not going over. They planned it this way. It can't be unfair if the participants have a plan in place to fix the result.

Spyder

Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 07:38 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I disagree Wendo. BB was aware that Jun intended to throw the comp. They could have made that very difficult. Instead, they made it easier!

I thought that the first part of the comp was brilliant, bc Ali's biggest weakness is her ego. Of course she would misjudge what Justin thought of her. But the tiebreaker was ridiculous and insulting. How funny would it have been if BB had thwarted J & A's plan?

Brenda1966

Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 08:26 am EditMoveDeleteIP
The tiebreaker question stunk. The fact that Ali's correct number was so much smaller than Jun's would have made it much more likely that she would have guessed correctly (provided they were trying to win). IT doesn't matter that they both threw it -- the games should be set up fairly. I also hate the "guess the number" type questions. They should allow enough time to do a couple of sudden death questions of the same nature as the competition questions.

I'm not sure how the jury will take Jun's throwing of the competition. When they point it out to Robert he could certainy get angry with Ali for telling him 99% that she's take him when it's obvious Jun knew Ali would take her.

I can't wait for this show to be over!

Charvie

Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 08:28 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I did think that BB would have taken better precautions to keep them from throwing it. But I guess they had only one tv and a limited amount of time. And truthfully the only way to keep them from throwing it would have been to put them in seperate rooms and have them answer the questions not knowing how the other answered and not knowing who had what score.

Monalisahi

Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 10:14 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Wendo....agreed, they were going to throw it regardless of the question so the point is moot. What is funny is that Jun was trying to throw the entire comp and it even came to a tie-breaker....ROFL.

Meggieprice

Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 10:43 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Someone in chat last night during the show said they shoud have just had them answer without saying until the end what the score was.I thought that sounded like a good ides! Especially as BB did hear, as we did, that the plan was on.

I think Jun could have seen it two ways- one, she needed to show she could win the big competitions and two- she did not want to be the one to evict Robert. I can see it would be hard to decide.

Missapril

Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 11:27 am EditMoveDeleteIP
uh, no they could NOT cheat. they were answering for their own relationships <> not each other's. LOL!

Steveh

Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 11:41 am EditMoveDeleteIP
"It can't be unfair if the participants have a plan in place to fix the results."

There are many problems with this statement.

The first one is, I'm not sure what "It . . ." refers to. But I'm going to assume it refers to the final stage of the final hoh competition. Even then, it can be unfair.

True, Jun and Ali were the only participants in that particular competition, but that competition is part of a larger competition which started out with 11 other competitors, one of whom was still in the house with Ali and Jun. In that sense, the final HoH WAS unfair--to all other contestants in the game, especially Robert who was--technically--a participant in the final HoH (the last game was only one-third of the competition).

Furthermore, the larger competition started out with millions watching, many of whom are probably still watching. Fixing the result of the game's final competition is also unfair to everyone watching since almost everyone watching probably assumes that the results of the competitions on Big Brother are not and should not be pre-determined.

Please, do not invoke Dr. Will here. He announced that he was throwing competitions, not working in collusion with someone else to pre-determine the outcome. These are not the same things.

Nor is it the same thing when one group competitors tries to convince another one to quit during the competition (as with this year's steel cage or w/ Ali and Rob in the ice storm). Persuading people to quit during the competition is part of the competition. Pre-determining the outcome of a competition is not.

So, IMO, Jun and Ali rigging the final competition was unfair to all of this year's particpants in BB and all of the viewing audience although I'm sure that there are those in each group who would disagree with me. But in most cases if the result of any competition is rigged before the competition starts, it usually affects way more people than just those competing in it.

I'll bet we won't see rigging like this happen again on BB. It would be difficult to keep individual competitors from throwing individual competitions or for competitors to start making deals in the course of a competition, but it would not be difficult to stop the insulting behavior I saw in the final HoH competition. Unless they do a tie-in w/ WWE next year and have an all professional wrestler cast.

Geri

Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 11:45 am EditMoveDeleteIP
<> Jun knew how long Ali's and Justin's relationship lasted so she could do the math. Then she knew what to put down to make sure that she was the loser.

Spear

Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 12:08 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
It's unfair for the producers to rig the competition in someone's favor (Ali, in this case), regardless of whether the contestants have agreed to a result behorehand. I think it's also unfair to have a competition like Quoridor or Snake-in-the-Grass where competitors can team up against an individual.

But Steveh, why is it unfair if all participants agree on a result beforehand? I certainly don't feel cheated as a viewer -- this is not some sporting event where I expect that everyone try their best to win each competition. Why should Robert and the jury members feel cheated? It's not as if Ali and Jun conspired to make Robert lose in Round 2. It's not like Ali and Jun have decided to split the $500,000. It's just strategy and it could have backfired on Jun (it still could swing some votes against her, too).

Steveh

Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 01:32 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Spear - I find your question reasonable. My position is that if it's okay for TWO people to pre-determine the outcome, then next it will be three, four, etc. Also, even though they are the only two in that particular competition, that particular competition is part of a larger contest which the other contestants have competed in and which much of the audience has watched with a certain set of expectations. Once you set a precedent for rigging outcomes where do you stop? Can we please have a SHRED of integrity?

Plus, when someone condescends to me (as does anyone who conspires to throw a competition that I think, however naively, is legit) I think that's unfair and I think most others do too.

Finally, I know that sports books in Vegas, A.C., etc. have made lines on various aspects of Survivor and prior BB shows, (not sure about this one) incl. HoH competitions. How would you have liked to have had Jun in the HoH last night?

I write all this w/ the complete knowledge that concepts like fair/unfair can be inherently ridiculous when applied to any aspect of BB. LOL

Kalekona

Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 01:45 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
jun didn't need to do the math, see clearly and obviously looked at Ali's answer before writting her own.

Gidget

Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 01:50 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I would tend to agree that rigging the final HOH was unfair, except I can only judge fair and unfair on the basis of the explicit rules, of which I do not have knowledge.

Are the actual contractual rules of BB posted anywhere or are they a kept a mystery so the production can effect outcomes at will?

Wendo

Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 01:50 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Steveh, "It" referred to the final HOH question.

edtied to add: As to the rest of your post, and subsequent post, give me a break. I disagree with your entire premise.

Spear

Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 03:17 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Steveh, I guess I don't see why there is an expectation that everybody try their best to win HOH. It's a valid strategy to throw competitions in BB (to avoid being perceived as too strong, to avoid making enemies, ...). I don't see yesterday's result as being too different from Jun deciding on her own to throw the competition. Ultimately, the HOH competition results don't directly determine the result that matters, which is who the jury will vote for. That said, I would like the producers to make it harder for the contestants to prearrange results; but only because it would keep them on their toes.

Anyone betting on BB competitions should take into account that contestants have thrown and will throw them. (And I think anyone *accepting* bets on an event that has already happened -- like Survivor -- is a fool!)

Denecee

Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 04:01 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I think that it's a possibility that Jun did not throw the comp. She might have thought that Jee would say a million days because it seemed like that to him or something. It's just that until the tie breaker question, Jun seem to be really trying to get the answers correct. Who knows?

Steveh

Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 04:06 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
As I said Spear, throwing a competition and rigging a competition are two different things.

Very respectful Wendo, "give me a break." About the level of "debate" I've come to expect from you.

Spear

Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 05:24 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
When it's the contestants doing the rigging, I don't see how it's different from individuals throwing competitions. To me, it's as if everybody else decided to throw it and let one person win. Anyway, why do you think this could get out of hand and occur more often in the future? This was only possible because Robert was already eliminated from contention. Otherwise, it's hard for me to see a situation where everybody would agree beforehand to let the same person win HOH (other than the first HOH, of course).

Earthmother

Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 05:26 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
eenie, meenie, minie, moe.....come here little tiger!

Wendo

Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 05:33 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Awe gee Steveh. Sorry my "debating" skills aren't up to your level.

edited to add: On further consideration, I'm just so "devastated" by this. *sniff*

Woodpecke®

Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 05:37 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
If you are betting on BB, you most certainly have a very big problem.

C1mag

Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 05:44 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
hahaha it's getting close to the end I can tell. Here kitty kitty! :)

Steveh

Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 06:26 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Never said I was betting, nor that anyone currently was. Only that in Vegas/A.C., etc. you can get a line on ANYTHING (where it's assumed the "competitors" haven't rigged the outcome). I also know of at least one group of BB fantasy competitors (you can get the rules at CBS site) who play for money. I don't know the details, etc., only that they do. William Bennett plays slot machines which are programmed to beat him; therefore he has a way bigger problem than anyone who's bet on reality tv (as absurd as the latter activity is).

Spear, I guess my overall point, my opinion is that if you rig a game, any game, at any point, then all the players who have played in it and all the people who have watched it with some degree of intellectual/emotional investment, are short-changed even if the short-changing doesn't take some material form.

Wendo, I FINALLY realized (probably way too late) than when I was confronted with ideas that provoked a "gimmee a break" response from me b/c they seemed so absurd, so outlandish, so unworkable that I should swallow that response (at least temporarily) and consider the possibility that maybe I was seeing a plausible idea that was merely giving me a new way of looking at something.

Zipsdaddy

Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 07:58 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Ali all the way... although she was not my first choice to win the past 5 or 6 weeks. She flied like a butterfly, stung like a bee, didn't need others do her dirty work, bust her ass to win competitions, got away with floating... etc, etc... She totally PLAYED this game and ALL the players and deserves to win....

Whether I like her best or not.... she should be voted the winner.......

Carrie92

Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 08:18 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I guess I don't understand the argument about the HOH comp.
Ali, had to pick a number between 0 and about 210. Not knowing what Justin would say, since she nearly lost the thing before deciding to go against what she thought his answers would be, she went with 0, so as not to go over.

Jun "guessed" 1 million. No one even LIVES for 1 million days. She clearly threw it. She could have tried and multiplied 365 by 5 or 6 years - whatever they dated, but her intent was to throw the comp.

So, what's the argument?

Wendo

Thursday, September 18, 2003 - 08:22 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
*sniff* Yep, I'm still feeling "devestated". *sniff*


C1mag, LOL! meow!