Do you think you could compete effectively without lies?
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TV ClubHouse: ARCHIVES: Big Brother USA 2003 General Discussions Part 1: Do you think you could compete effectively without lies?
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Gina8642

Monday, August 18, 2003 - 10:07 am EditMoveDeleteIP
When I was a child I was taught to NEVER say someone wasn't home, even when that was true. We were taught say 'So and So can't come to the phone right now, can I take a message?' Why? Because it is dangerous to tell people you are home alone. You may be endangering your child to predators.

Also, if you tell a telemarketer that their target isn't there, they will simply call back until they speak to the target. So, avoiding telemarketers just guarentees your phone will ring again soon, probably in the middle of dinner. Better to take a telemarketer's call and get put on their do not call list.

Crossfire

Monday, August 18, 2003 - 10:15 am EditMoveDeleteIP
If I were to find myself on the receiving end of a lying accusation in BB for having employed misdirection in response to a direct question, I would inform my accuser that demanding an accurate response to a question regarding my future intentions that could compromise my strategy is unsportsman like conduct.

Such a ploy in a game of social interaction is no different than feinting a pass in basketball to throw your opponent off balance, masking your true intentions to take the shot as opposed to the implied pass. It would be highly amusing to see a player contest a successful basket shot on such grounds, but only once.

Sanfranjoshfan

Monday, August 18, 2003 - 10:32 am EditMoveDeleteIP
It is so funny that so many people get upset about the HGs lying. They never lied in BB1, but that was the slowest BB ever. (Yeah, Curtis was funny and the chickenman was insane....but overall, the action was sloooooow....) This show really started picking up popularity and excitement once they interjected strategizing and backstabbing into the game!

To win, ya GOTTA lie...OR just be very, very lucky and win all the final HOHs.....but you also have to be able to offset your lying by not making real enemies. Jason did that, but he was SO likeable, he was destined to be dumped at the final 3 because everyone knew that they couldn't win against him. Will lied, too...but he won because Nicole simply made bigger enemies....*after* they dumped Monica (who did not lie, as far as I can remember).

Xarph

Monday, August 18, 2003 - 10:44 am EditMoveDeleteIP
SFJF: "Will lied, too..."

Please provide one example where Will lied about the game.

Gina8642

Monday, August 18, 2003 - 11:16 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I think everyone has lied in this game. IMO, you cannot win if you do not lie. However, you can lie less, make only lies of omission, make only lies in defense of your alliance, etc to make your lies seem less severe or more honorable than the other player.

To sit here and pretend that all lies are equal belies reality.

Every individual is bothered differently by different types of lies. Each player needs to attempt to lie as little as possible and as little as possible in ways that bother those that may be in a jury against them.

Personally, I'm bothered the most by malicious lies. Allie seems to be using more of these. I was also extremely bothered by Jack's lie to Dana just before she left (His lie - the Jee3 deliberately threw the HOH so they could get Dana out.) Why? Because this was unnecessarily malicious. Dana had a delicate psycie. Jack may have been intending to sow seeds of doubt in that alliance, but instead all he did was deliberately hurt another human being. It was cruel and malicious and Jack knew better.

I am much less bothered by lies that are needed to further someone's alliace and don't emotionaly harm other people. Example, the Original 8, lying to Jee3 about Michelle/Erika vote. It was necessary to their game plan, and harmed no one very much. Michelle was hurt, but they didn't try to make her feel like sh$t about herself like Jack did to Dana.

Other folks will have different feelings about what lies are wrong/bothersome than me. To win this game, you (the player) need to strike a balance and try to do as little as possible that will bother the jury, or less than your opponant. You can try to stay out of the fray (a la Lisa BB3, Matthew Survivor Amazon) but you may be resented by the gamers for keeping your hands clean as well.

Still, lying isn't everything.

Jun is really doing very little lying, yet everyone seems to be angry at her. Her problem isn't lying, but telling everyone everything and always ripping on folks and always attention seeking. So 'lying' is far from the deciding factor of anyone why they like someone or not Or why they are voted to win or not in the end.

Gina8642

Monday, August 18, 2003 - 11:17 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Will lied to Hardy about making a pact with him.

Spunky

Monday, August 18, 2003 - 11:49 am EditMoveDeleteIP
So, the majority of posters here agree that a prerequisite for playing BB is to be a "good liar". Watch out if you lie and caught with your pants down...
Ali said of Jee: Jee is such a bad liar...
Meaning, it's okay to lie but you have to do it right to earn someone's estime.

So lying is not only allowed but expected... my kind of world. I will no longer say "I'm not sure. Maybe I'll make up my mind at the last minute" etc. etc... I will just be the best liar I could be and say: No, what I really want to do is so and so but I'm going to do this... and then end up doing the opposite. eh, eh..
How long will it take for me to be kicked out??

In the end, I don't think lying is what it takes to play BB, the best way is to just tell everyone the same thing, the truth, and then I'll know for sure that my nose won't grow and I'll never be caught with my pants down.

Gina too makes a lot of sense...and I'm not lying.

Sanfranjoshfan

Monday, August 18, 2003 - 12:02 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Xarph - "Please provide one example where Will lied about the game. "

Well.....how about when he told other HGs that he was going to lie?

If you believe that he did not lie at any other time, then his saying that he would lie....was a lie.:)

Katlady53

Monday, August 18, 2003 - 12:07 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
My problem wouldn't be that I was unable to lie. My problem would be that if I got caught, I couldn't continue lying without looking totally obvious. Lol My problems would be further compounded if someone accused me of lying when I wasn't. I have a bad habit of laughing if accused of lying when I'm innocent. Lol

Sanfranjoshfan

Monday, August 18, 2003 - 12:24 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Hey Spunky - The only problem with telling everyone the same thing is that sooner or later some of them will start to compare notes and then they will realize that they really have no idea where you stand. In the final 3, when the final HOH has to pick someone to be evicted....I think *I* would opt to keep the person that I believed to have lied the most rather than the one that may not have lied....remember, no lying = no overt backstabbing. No overt backstabbing = better chance at winning the final vote!

That's the beauty of this game....you can be ruthless (Dani) or you can be nice (Jason) or you can bully your way to make it to the end Nicole), but sometimes that's the one behavior that will ensure that you don't win!

I think the more seasons we have of these kinds of reality games (where you have to throw others out of the game, while at the same time depending on them to hand you the big prize at the end)...the more often we will have "under the radar" winners like Vecepia and Lisa winding up with the big bucks.

In any case....I like the strategizing and the lying in the context of the game, which I think is no worse than bluffing in poker. Lying about another HG in order to trash them for fun is just hateful and has nothing to do with the game. Those folks could maybe win the game, but lose a lot of respect along the way...

Sanfranjoshfan

Monday, August 18, 2003 - 12:30 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Hey Xarph - I just thought of another example of Will lying. I seem to recall that he hatched a plan to make the others think he had cancer...he even went so far as to tell some of the others about some weird symptoms he was supposedly having. Being a doctor, he knew what to say in order to make it sound believable. Before he got very far in his plan, I believe someone flew a banner that exposed his plan, right? Wasn't that when he made comments about the intenet freaks messing up his strategy?

Am I remembering this right? Was there a banner that exposed Will's fake cancer scheme? Anybody got better details about this?

Crossfire

Monday, August 18, 2003 - 12:42 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Good points. You are really stuck in a tough position in this game. Even telling the truth can get you into trouble.

If players A, B, and C form an alliance in response to another grouping in the house and make plans to further their survival, players A and B don't want C spreading the truth all over the place.

Sanfranjoshfan

Monday, August 18, 2003 - 12:56 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
So far the best strategy I've seen since season 1 didn't involve any lying at all.....it was to get bitten in the ass by a spider and then crawl into bed and cuddle with a cute firemen for a few weeks, while the rest of the HGs were all busy lying to each other and forming major resentments, and then pop out of bed with a healed ass and nonchalantly stroll through all the carnage of lies and backstabbing...straight to the winners circle!

The only problem with this strategy is that you can't always depend on a cooperative arachnid to join your alliance and help carry out the plan! LOL:)

Spunky

Monday, August 18, 2003 - 12:57 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Aaaaaahhhhh, that's so funny!! "The only problem with telling everyone the same thing is that sooner or later some of them will start to compare notes and then they will realize that they really have no idea where you stand." This was actually my strategy, leaving everyone wondering about me. However, how could that be when everyone has the exact same version of what I think? On the contrary, I think I would be way too transparent and lose in the process, as Crossfire said, even telling the truth can get me in trouble.

So, go ahead and lie to your heart's content, but I agree, Sanfran, the lies have to be in the context of the game, trashing each other is very demeaning and the player quickly looses our respect. In the end, I think it's better to lose the money than the respect of the audience...and of the other houseguests.

Crossfire

Monday, August 18, 2003 - 01:05 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
The thing to do, is to not trash people, not act like you are better than everyone else, be as dependable as you can, get a little dirt on you, squeeze out of tough situations with little white ones only as a last resort, apologize for them in the end, and don't make any unnecessary enemies, you never know where a vote may come from.

Xarph

Monday, August 18, 2003 - 03:49 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
" Will lied to Hardy about making a pact with him."

No, will did not lie. Will promised Hardy that he would not put Hardy up if he got HOH. Will did not get that HOH, Monica did. Yes, will gave it Monica, but he never promised Hardy that he would TRY to win the HOH.

SFJF: Yes will told lots of lies in the house. They were lies about his background and all sorts of silly things like that cancer story. Will never directly lied about the game.

Philamom

Monday, August 18, 2003 - 04:37 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Xarph, refresh my memory from BB2 ... when Krista was evicted, I remember her saying something to Will about the fact that he lied to Mike Boogie. But I can't remember the details -- something like Will promised Mike he wouldn't vote against Krista, but then he did. I wish my memory was better, GRRR. Anyway, doesn't that count as a lie on Will's part?

Sanfranjoshfan

Monday, August 18, 2003 - 05:10 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Xarph - That cancer story was not just a fun diversion for Will....it was a big fat lie in an attempt to play the "cancer card" and garner the sympathy of the other HGs...to keep from being singled out as dangerous. It was a lie and it was his BB game strategy to use that lie to further himself in the game.

That particular lie was insensitive to many live feed watchers that had cancer or had cancer in their families...and I didn't think it was very cool. However that WAS his BB strategy at the time. In this case I do not fault him for lying to try to garner sympathy (after all, it IS a game) but I do think he was somewhat cruel by doing so.

He also DID tell the others that he was going to lie. If he subsequently lied then...well, he lied. If he subsequently did NOT lie...well, by saying that he was going to lie, he misled the other HGs by lying about his lying...which, once again, was his BB game strategy, to keep the other HGs off balance! :)

Sanfranjoshfan

Monday, August 18, 2003 - 05:15 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Xarph - Just wanted to add that if you mean that Will did not lie directly to another HG about a *vote, nomination, or veto* that may be true...I don't remember, so I'll give you that one.

But there are many ways to lie while playing the game in BB to further ones progress in the game ...*without lying directly about a nomination, vote, or veto*.

Xarph

Monday, August 18, 2003 - 05:16 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
SFJF: I am going to take two asprin, wait a while and then re-read your post about Will lying about lying thus not telling the truth about lying.

Philamom: I do not remember the details about the Krista eviction. I tried to access the CBS BB2 voting history site but it seems to be having problems.

Sanfranjoshfan

Tuesday, August 19, 2003 - 10:51 am EditMoveDeleteIP
http://www.cbs.com/primetime/bigbrother2/show/week05/ep3_story.shtml

Will lies to Nicole:

Will, who has referred to himself as "the puppetmaster", finds out that other people have been pulling the strings from the very beginning. He gets confirmation from Krista that she's been part of the "Untouchables" alliance with Monica and Hardy since the third day in the House. Asked what Nicole will think of this alliance, Krista tells Will that she won't find out, because Will is the only one outside of the group that knows about it.

***Undeterred, Will tells Nicole about the UT group and explains that their card-playing is a way of signaling each other who they intend to vote out. In the Diary Room, Will says that this is something he made up to make their alliance seem more sinister. ***

Nicole confronts Hardy, more concerned with Krista's duplicity than with his. (Nicole and Krista talk strategiesÊ) Will has decided that Hardy is "not a nice guy. He lies. That's my role." His new plan is to evict Hardy, then take his place next to Monica and Krista and hope that Nicole doesn't get too upset with him. He tries to get more information from Krista, who tells him the UT plan, right after pledging her trustworthiness to Hardy and Monica. With Krista's true loyalties coming into doubt, Kent says Krista hates him because he "figured her out first."

Sanfranjoshfan

Tuesday, August 19, 2003 - 10:53 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Upon Krista's eviction, she confronts Will about his lying to Booger:

http://www.cbs.com/primetime/bigbrother2/show/week06/ep3_story5.shtml

She shakes Hardy's hand, telling him "nice game," and pointedly says to Nicole, "I'll see you in the end." In the hallway by the exit, Krista tells Will, "You're not weak. The weak thing was selling me out to them and breaking your promise to Boogie."

Philamom

Tuesday, August 19, 2003 - 11:50 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Thanks for looking that up, Sanfran. I remember Krista giving Will a hard time when she was evicted, but I couldn't remember the details.

Jolly_Penguin

Tuesday, August 19, 2003 - 11:54 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I still think this game would suck without lies. The lies and backstabbing are half the fun of the game. Its a game about using people and then stepping on them to reach the top.

Sanfranjoshfan

Tuesday, August 19, 2003 - 12:20 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Jolly_Penguin - "Its a game about using people and then stepping on them to reach the top. "

.....AND having to count on votes from their victims to win at the end! :)