Archive through August 21, 2003
TV ClubHouse: ARCHIVES: Big Brother USA 2003 General Discussions Part 1:
America's Choice:
Archive through August 21, 2003
Floridagirl1010 | Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 08:21 am     Wow...no offense here but how many of you actually know him outside of the house? How many of you are alcoholics and are working hard at starting your life over? How many of you have been in the BB house and have dealt with isolation and wackos? All you know is what you see and read while he's in that house...I seriously doubt he's the same on the outside...I know I would be psycho dealing with those people on a daily basis! lol! As far as leaving his child to do a show...has he stated why he did it? I for one would not leave my kids but maybe he did it for the money so he could provide a better life for her? He's probably a very good father and is working on getting his child back...maybe he did it to challenge himself? Who knows...we might never know. I for one am proud of him for having the guts to put himself in the house and not fall off of the wagon...that has to be tough! Then the way he reacted last night to her letter...that had me in tears...it's very obvious she loves him and understands that he had an illness...she's proud of her dad and he loves her...what else matters? {{jumping down off my soapbox}} |
Kalekona | Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 01:21 pm     The best litmis test to show just how good a father Robert is is easy, His Ex-wife. If he was a dead beat Dad or unattentive no mother I know would remain silent and allow the world to think he's a good dad if he isn't. Yes he made mistakes while drinking but that doesn't make him a bad parent. Every parent screws up something. They work to much, some suffer depression, some have terminal illnesses etc. All makes it harder to parent but not impossibele and I am a child of an alcholoic (ok grandchild but i was raided by my gradparent.) And my grandfather was a whole lot better as a parent than my sober mother was. |
Philamom | Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 01:37 pm     I have to disagree, Kalekona. I've never known an alcoholic who was a good parent -- and, unfortunately, I've known quite a few alcoholics with children. Parenthood and alcoholism don't go hand-in-hand. And please notice that I didn't saying RECOVERING alcoholics can't be good parents. There's a world of difference. |
Pengoh | Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 01:38 pm     I've heard Robert talking about his drinking and he said he only started drinking heavily at the tail end of his relationship with Erika. They've been broken up for.. 2 years? And he's been sober for over a year and a half? I'm confused.. He must not have been an alcoholic for very long... I'm curious as to what the real stats are here.. |
Widowswalk | Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 01:49 pm     There is a part of me that hopes Robert wins. I say that because my favorite thing in the world is to watch good decent people in a state of outrage. I know it's sick and I've been this way for well over half a century. I have never been a Robert fan but it would be so much fun to read the outraged posts if he won. I can see it all now, people so shocked that they take up half a page to vent. I would love that. (for the record, I'm a Jack fan). |
Kaili | Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 01:51 pm     Maybe we would need to look at what he considers "heavy" drinking. Or keep in mind that you can be an alcoholic without being a raging drunk all the time. He may have been a steady day in, day out dusk till dawn kind of drinker for years, but started really drinking heavily later. |
Kalekona | Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 01:56 pm     Philamom - in most cases i would agree but with men like my Grandfather who was always functioning you'd be unable to find anyone who would say he was a bad parent. And he raised 3 children and 2 grandchildren. I'm just saying you could say the same for a person who suffers from depression, they are not always there when the child needs them, not of their own choice but still absent. I imagine your view would depend on what your definition of a good parent is. In my view Robert saw very quickly what drinking was doing to himself and his daughter and took steps to stop it, that is a good parent. (a bad parent wouldn't care) |
Widowswalk | Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 02:03 pm     Ding Ding- KaleKona wins today's prize for most intellegent post. Very good post kale. I like that |
Kalekona | Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 02:36 pm     Thank you Widowswalk. |
Philamom | Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 04:17 pm     I suppose part of the problem lies with the terms. By definition, an alcoholic (even a "functioning" one) is addicted to alcohol and gets intoxicated with some frequency. A person who is drunk cannot take care of children properly. They cannot be a "good" parent (at least, not while intoxicated), no matter what definition of the word "good" is used. They are not dependable; they are not there when the children need them; they have difficulty with thoughts and perceptions; they are often violent and uncontrollable, and so on. It's surprising to me that there is a debate about this. Possibly there's some underlying current or agenda that I'm not picking up. But this is not just my opinion -- I don't think you could find a mental health expert who would say alcoholics make good parents. As for Robert, I made the distinction between "alcoholic" and "recovering alcoholic," so this doesn't apply to him in his current situation. |
Kalekona | Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 04:49 pm     Again I will say the same can be said for someone who suffers Depression, are you saying they are "bad" parents. Do you even understand the term "functioning alcholoic"? it means exactly what it says they drink yet they remain functioning. They aren't falling down drunk, they don't lose their job, the continue to work and do all the everyday things everyone else does, but they drink. Also an alchololic does not have to be rip roaring drunk everyday. Many are binge drinkers who are very sober in between. Your insistance that all alcholocis are bad parents is insulting and from personel experience wrong. It would be more correct to say they could be better parents if they were sober. But by no means are all alcoholics bad parents. They no more choice to be alcholoics than the chroniclly depressed choice to be so. |
Philamom | Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 05:19 pm     Kale, I would never compare someone who suffers from a disease such as depression to an alcoholic. There is a huge difference ... one disease is beyond the individual's control; the other is not. An alcoholic can stop drinking; a person who suffers from depression cannot stop the production of chemicals in their body. I understand completely the term "functional alcoholic." Not only do I understand it, I've had experience with it. Your attitude puzzles me, Kalekona. I've been sitting here for about 15 minutes, debating whether to type this next line, because I know it's going to make you angry. But I think you need to hear it ... I think what I'm hearing from you is denial. And if you want to talk privately, I'd be glad to give you my email address. |
Widowswalk | Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 05:23 pm     I think Kale makes the most sense on this thread and I'm not in denial of anything. |
Kalekona | Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 05:34 pm     Thanks again Widowswalk... Philamom- just what am i in denial of? The truth is perhaps your view of things is somewhat tainted. Oh and alcholoism is a disease, people do not choose to loose everything they own and depend on a bottle to get them through life. Yes people choose to drink but many do not know that first drink will lead them on a journey of unspeakable horror. Many people believe someone who is depressed can just "snap" out of it. (they can't) but as parents why are you not concidering them "bad" parents when the end result is exactly the same? Not there when the child needs them, not thinking clearly, extremely selfish etc. Yet you seem to think that the same behavior in someone who drinks makes them "bad" parents. (and by the way not everyone who drinks is violent, you'd be surprized I'm afraid to learn just how many domestic violence cases have nothing to do with addiction. Perspective....everything comes down to that. Your life experience and mine gave us different perspectives of the same problem. |
Kalekona | Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 05:48 pm     I wanted to add and edit to my post but ran out of time.. I'm not angry about anything you said Philamom, but I am sad that your life experience made it impossible for you to believe someone could see things differently and not be in denial. Sad but not angry. |
Philamom | Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 05:49 pm     Kale, I think you knew perfectly well what I was talking about when I said denial. Even Widowswalk understood where I was going. Pretending not to understand ... classic. I'm done with this topic. Not another word from me. I was sincerely trying to reach out. No more. I'm going to get something to eat, sit and relax and watch BB. Enjoy the show, everyone. I wish you the best, Kale. |
Wgm | Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 06:00 pm     Philamom, I totally agree with you. I think that with all the alcohol in the house, he may have gone back to drinking. They don't have any juice, lemonade, or milk. There is alcohol in the house, and it wouldn't suprise me if he didn't even think about having a drink. |
Kalekona | Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 11:31 pm     Philamom I have no idea where your coming from. Are you just ignoring what I say and making up your own scenerios? Clearly I understand what you meant by "denial" and just as clearly I was telling you I am in denial of nothing. While you on the other hand sound bitter and angry, let it go it doesn't help you in life. No matter what happened in your past or childhood you can't change it, you can only either allow it to control you or you can grow from it. I chose to learn and grow as a person and not wallow in excuses or anger. No I'm not in denial, I know exactly what my childhood was like and have no doubt what a good man my grandfather was. How do I know that? Because I knew him and I know the people who respected him, the people he delt with daily, presidents, Attorney generals, former first ladies. I know that my mothers selfishness and my Grandmothers insistance that none of us could do for ourselves and could never do anything good enough was much more damaging in my life than my grandfathers drinking. I also know my life was a bed of roses compaired to my sister and brother who were unlucky enough to end up foster care and with their fathers family. No there is no denial here. And Wgm Robert is not drinking in the house, they have non-alcholoic beer and juice for him (and Michelle when she was there) and Erika has without question repeatedly said he has not been drinking. And as for what kind of a father Robert is, I think his daughters mother put an end to that question. They care for he equally, so there goes the "he doesn't really see her or care for her" argument. Face it whatever faults you want to find with Robert his ability as a father isn't one of them. |
Cliotheleo | Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 11:37 pm     Ok ........ so ............ like ............ um ........... does anyone know what number I dial to get a trampolene put in the house? |
Sanfranjoshfan | Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 11:49 pm     I think the next America's Choiuce should be to send in the Fab 5 to do a makeover on one of the boys! I'd drink to that! |
Kalekona | Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 11:52 pm     That would be great San.... My daughter and I think it should be "which HG should re-enter the house Dana Nate Justin America's Choice----Justin" |
Widowswalk | Wednesday, August 20, 2003 - 11:54 pm     Philamom, forgive me for saying so but aren't you being a mite self righteous for someone who doesn't even know Kale? I'm becoming rather offended at your attitude. You know nothing about Kale's private life and have no right to presume. (my humble op) |
Cliotheleo | Thursday, August 21, 2003 - 12:08 am     So ........... the trampoline number ........... do you all think that's a toll-free number, or will I have to pay $1 per call? |
Sanfranjoshfan | Thursday, August 21, 2003 - 12:11 am     Cliotheleo....well I do believe that if you request the trampoline that Will got the dirty squirties on....the call could go as high as $1.50! |
Crossfire | Thursday, August 21, 2003 - 12:14 am     A trampoline eh? Sounds good to me, I don't know if anyone could be encouraged to drop a pantload on one but fun nonetheless. I'd like to see a segway race this year. They should make a track in the backyard with various obstacles and interesting surfaces, then bring in a at least two or more segways for a competition. That would really turn my crank. |
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