Archive through August 07, 2003
TV ClubHouse: ARCHIVES: Big Brother USA 2003 General Discussions Part 1:
Is Jack Really That Smart?:
Archive through August 07, 2003
What555456 | Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 07:57 am     Jack seems to have this image of being smart, at least on this Board. But I haven't seen it. He talks with authority as if he is smart, but he has missed out on every strategy he has had and has done little to get ahead except to make sure he has not won any competitions and to not overly antagonize anyone. I don't see any real "smarts" there, but more a typical HG in this game. I think it is just that he has an FBI background so everyone thinks he is smart. But so far, I have not seen much evidence that his background is helping him much either. Can anyone enlighten me as to why Jack is seen as so smart and a threat because of it? |
Seamonkey | Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 08:03 am     I think he's intelligent and persistent but has attracted some flakey allies. His game play hasn't been all that daring or smart IMO but he IS still there. I heard Ali trying to plant with Justin the idea that Jack is more of a threat than Nate, but still think Nate's a goner. |
Crossfire | Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 08:10 am     Jack seems smart enough for me. I don't have any specific examples on hand, but I've seen and read some of decent planning, but he has not had any power yet to implement any. I think he is missing influence more than brains at this point. I don't think older folks are really taken seriously on bb. |
Bracken | Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 08:11 am     I'm still not sure about Jack. His analysis of the threats is spot on. He seems to have a keen mind and does practice information with Erika. Since he is so much older and looked to as an authority figure and one with supposed smarts for a game of this nature, I believe he might be flying under the radar. I think he is the type of man that could look you straight in the eye and lie. Not that I think he is a liar, I think it is his game. I think he is telling Erika one thing and doing another -- deliberately blowing the HOH competitions. While he has aligned himself, for better or worse, with the originals, I don't see that he had an opportunity to jump ship and not be perceived as a threat or untrustworthy. He may be nominated a couple more times, but if it is Nathan and Jack this week, Nathan will go. But Jack had better make a move the following week for the HOH, if in fact he has been avoiding it, because he must break up the Stooges after this week or it's all over for him. |
Maris | Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 08:13 am     I think throwing that HOH competition was one of the all time dumbest BB moves, along with Dana's nomination and Marcellas not using the POV. I still cant understand why on earth he wouldnt try for the veto and veto himself. Last night he said if he won it he wouldnt use it. This is the guy who has been saying that everyone is playing with their emotions except him. If he does not get the veto or try to use it then he is guilty of the same thing as everyone else. He has brought more attention on himself with this HOH competition because everyone knows that he threw it. He is making it worse by going around apologizing to the people he screwed and saying he just had a case of the dumbs. Nobody is going to believe him anymore. Each houseguest that is eliminated can usually pinpoint their one mistake. This was Jacks if he is eliminated. I dont think he will go this week so he has another chance next week. I do not see him being able to win HOH on his skills alone. The only thing he has working for him is maybe the producers will figure it is time for Jack to win an HOH. |
Laisey | Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 08:18 am     I have posted this in the past elsewhere but I don't mind repeating myself -- after all, the HGs do all the time. Remember this is only my theory and has no basis on anything he has said in the house (how's that for a disclaimer). I think Jack is smart, I just don't think his real purpose in being there is to play/win the game. True, Jack is a retired FBI agent, but he is now a published writer. He could be planning to write some articles on reality shows or even go into fiction with a character who goes on a reality show. He would have a unique perspective, having gone through the interview process, the finals, the sequestering before the show, observing the affect of the show on his fellow HGs, etc. As I said, it's just a theory. |
Mpls | Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 08:25 am     I am in now way trying to disparage the entire organization, nor Jack in particular, but Jack had to have been part of the FBI in their not so glorious days of the Atlanta bombing botchings and other foughpaugh's that brought derision and embarrassment to that department in the 1980's and 1990's. Sometimes it appeared that as an organization, the FBI at that time was trying to overthink and overanalyze which ended up making them look bad. I just say this to point out that Jack may be analytical, but tries to be too analytical and cannot use basic gut instinct. |
Maris | Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 08:43 am     There are good and there are bad in any organization and there are also mediocre. In any event, his previous work experience doesnt have much relevance to being inside that house. He and everyone else is thinking strategy and watching for other peoples strengths and weaknesses. He even called Justins nominations wrong. He told Nathan he thought it would be Nathan and Erika. He has overestimated his persuasive skills and in the last two HOHs was unable to put forward his agenda. His big mistake, if he has made one, is believing his own press. By that I mean he and Erika keep telling each other they are better than the others, they are dealing with kids, they are the mom and pop and somehow superior in their gameplay. He blames people for playing emotionally. He says it in a derogatory fashion and then adds how can I work with that type of person. That is what he has to do. That is gameplay. He put himself on the ropes because next week it is do or die for him. |
What555456 | Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 08:48 am     Mpls Leaving your comments about the FBI aside (which I agree with BTW), perhaps you have it right. Maybe what appears to be smarts is nothing more than training in being analytical. He can analyse, but he cannot make others do what he wants. Hence, he fails in every attempt he tries to get others to carry out the conslusions of his analysis. |
Bohawkins | Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 08:53 am     I just believe that Jack's skills to be able to present a convincing argument were warped through his years of work as an FBI agent. He, like many cops, learned some very bad techniques, and those were constantly reinforced in his experiences in law enforcement. Cops lie and attempt to manipulate suspects or potential informants by presenting them with faulty premises and illogical scenarios in order to get them to either confess or participate in an investigation. It is a very basic part of their methodology to try to convince someone of something that is actually not in their best interest. They do it so much that they fail to realize why, when they are in their manipulation mode, they are often successful, and it is not because they are skillful wordsmiths. They mistakenly come to believe that they are so convincing and that they can get anyone to do anything. This is because a reinforcement comes from having success from time to time. However, that success is most often coming from the powerful tool of being able to hold over anyone at least the veiled threat of incarceration. It does not from their skills as a negotiator and when that power is not available to them they simply don't realize it when they are not sounding credible or when the other person is not being convinced. When I heard Jack trying to tell Dana that it was in her best interest to put up Justin, I made two observations. First, it was illogical to be presenting that concept to Dana right then, after Justin had befriended her when everyone else was treating her as a pariah. Jack should have been smart enough to know that and such a premise would have been an impossible sell. But, old hand manipulators, after a time, often lose the ability to realize when they can't convince people of illogical actions. Second, it was obvious during his solemn I-am-so-much-wiser-than-you presentation that she wasn't buying it. However, he continued his fatherly tone without picking up on what she was showing. The true professional salesman (they are the ultimate manipulators, because they learn with financial gain as their teacher) would have sensed the direction and changed the pitch accordingly. Not Jack, he droned away. He reminded me of the kind of inept parent who tells their child about the evils of grass while the kid is just nodding their head in agreement and the parent never realizes that they are not changing anyone's mind. I don't think Jack was stupid when he tried to answer the first question in the HOH contest (or that he was throwing the competition). I think he merely did a classic "double think." He surmised that Dana was indeed obviously very obsessive, but he asked himself if she would say that about herself. He quickly concluded that Dana's ego would have not allowed that kind of self-deprecation, so the answer must be Alison (or whomever he guessed). Again, his FBI experience came back to bite him in the butt. |
Ocean_Islands | Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 09:28 am     I don't think Jack is that smart. He was pretty stupid to be laying out a plan to the HOH in such a manner as he did, which he did with both Allison and Dana. He had some good ideas for the nominations, however his presentation in both cases doomed them to failure. |
Mpls | Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 09:45 am     There you go Bohawkins, he over analyzed. Also, he is simply dealing with people who see him as a dad and a different generation and don't seem to take his "wizened" conversations too seriously. |
Chy | Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 10:10 am     Bo said: He reminded me of the kind of inept parent who tells their child about the evils of grass while the kid is just nodding their head in agreement and the parent never realizes that they are not changing anyone's mind. Haha, it reminds me what Erika said in the show pp) Jack & I are like their parents. We keep giving them wise advice, and they just come back with the wrong choices. Well, the difference is, those choices are only wrong since they were against J&E's best interests! I still believe Jack is smart, but #1, He probably doesn't have the kind of smart for this situation. #2, (I said in other thread) He might have stage frieght, and didn't even knew it before applying. All comps. involved performing infront of cameras, infront of millions of viewers. He looked like he souldn't help but getting wobbaly knees every time a competition is on! (It's a dreadful thing to have, all one can do in that situation is to try to preserve dignity!) #3, Luck is not on his side, he fell in to bouncing emotions. This bunch of lady-HGs are not in there for money. Sorry, just reread the question by What555--- I've thought about Laisey's theory for a while now; Bo. made some great points, but I can't help but thinking, that, Jack is seen smart probably because he seems calm, reserved, observing, absorbing....with all his suroundings which prompted us to expect some smart moves... |
Spunky | Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 10:18 am     I have to give him credit for 'spotting' Justin so early in the game... I didn't.. However, for everything else he seems to be a step behind everyone else... (Mmm, this is my first spontaneous rap..) |
Xarph | Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 10:46 am     The classical problem with IQ tests is that the people who create the tests must be smarter than the test takers. A similar problem exists when a group of people gather to talk about how smart a particular person is. |
Meggieprice | Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 10:57 am     Jack has some strategy smarts but he is not a smart communicator. I also do not get why he is not better at the physical challenges. He is letting me down big time because unless he snaps into gear he is outa there. I want him toe break up the stooges and i don't think he has it together enough to do it. |
Kellirippa | Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 11:07 am     I'm very suspicious that Jack was even an FBI agent at all. When Scott was having his chair throwing event, Jack did nothing, it was some of the girls that went to see what was going on. When Jack was on the chess board and Scott came outside and picked up a chess piece, Jack flinched and turned away, I'd expect a 30year federal police veteran to have a natural reflex for dissarming the situation. Jack needed the HOH comp for his side on Wednesday, and went out with a stupid mistake.. something's fishy... |
Bmh | Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 11:09 am     I don't think Jack is that smart..just because he is a FBI agent doesn't mean he is some genuis..I think alot of you Jack Fans make Jack seem more intelligent than he really is...But Jack was absolutely clueless to the game in the first 2 weeks and he just recently started gettin a feel for what the dynamics are in the house..Plus throwing HOH like that was really dumb considering he is going on the block this week... I think Jack is actually one of the poorest players...The best players in the house are Jun and Alison by far |
Maris | Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 11:26 am     People are making way too much out of this FBI thing. What was everyone expecting? Clint Eastwood to walk in the door? What he did outside the house has nothing to do with whether he can play the game. I was never impressed with Jack and never impressed with his assessment of the houseguests early on. I still laugh at his view that Jee was a double agent in the game, very smart. Look at who he chose to align himself with, bad move, isolationist and did nothing for him. What has set all other bb winners apart from other players is their ability to be flexible and change alliances as they need to. Dani was masterful at jumping all over the place with her alliances because she was believable. Nobody believes Jack and he hasnt made any effort at all to forge other alliances. He has made it clear it is he, Erika and David. He has made feeble attempts with Nathan and that is it. Erika and David were not great players particularly with the competitions, they could strategize but as Jack said, good strategy doesn't mean anything if you dont win competitions.. I would love to know what on earth possessed a man his age to even apply for this game. I am way younger than Jack and I have sense to know that I would never go on this game. The suggestion was made that he was going to write a book? Didn't Roddy say that too? Who is going to want to read a book written by someone who was playing the game from the periphery. Maybe he is doing it for the extra cash for college for his kids, who knows. I dont think he is particulary smart nor do I think he is dumb. He is not a good game player and he took the wrong strategy "from the jump". If I were Jack I would just hope I get evicted while my dignity is in tact, hang out at the sequestration house and knock back a couple of bourbons. 750 a week on top of his pension aint bad for a summer. |
Boberg | Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 11:35 am     Remember back during the first couple of days in the House...several houseguest mentioned, especially Jun, that they thought "someone" was the Mole. Well, I think Jack is the Mole and that is why he is not living up to our expectations of a FBI (retired) agent. Remember CBS kept hinting at another "Twist" maybe this is it..it certainly explains Jack's seeming ineptidude. Just a thought. |
Lurknomore | Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 11:38 am     Ok after careful thought this is my current Jack assessment (assments tend to change as the game does lol). I think he came in with a strong established (in his mind) strategy...form an alliance, stick together, make sure everyone else does the dirty work, and come across as inept and not a threat. Then coast through to the end as the good guy everyone liked and count on others to make enemies. The problem was they made the "Hi nice to meet you, ok we're an alliance" alliance, and rather than Jack adapting his plan he just kept trying to make it work. All along he has been right about what should be done, but he keeps refusing to do it himself, and that, regretfully, will be what will likely cause his demise in the game I don't think is problem is lack of smarts, or understanding reality TV as he has explained various shows to various HG's. His problem has been his refusal to see that unless he got his hands dirty and adapted his original strategy he was sunk. |
Bonnyswan | Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 11:51 am     here is my take on the situation... Jack was FBI...so we all are expecting him to be amazing at observation and human behavior...but wouldnt his forte lean towards the assessment of the criminal mind? I dont doubt he's a smart guy at all...his wit alone confirms that for me. But lets keep in mind he's playing with a bunch of children who's decisions and actions are anything but stable and well thought out. Its my feeling he's having so much trouble keepin up with this crew and coming out on top cause their actions have no logical basis. |
Sasman | Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 12:04 pm     Boberg, I wish Jack was the Mole but I don't think so; in the Mole, the mole can't get executed but there's no way in BB for them to guarentee that the mole will not get eliminated somewhere along the way before the end. |
Lurknomore | Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 12:20 pm     Bonny have you read any of the articles he wrote? They are not only well written, but insightful, straightfoward, and VERY intelligent. The one about the FBI's refusal to recruit young black women took a controversal subject and handled it both with calm explaination, some wit on a pretty humorless subject, and made a very strong argument. Not to mention the fact it was good enough for publication in The Atlantic Monthly, who has very high journalistic standards. I don't think many dumb folks are published by them. I do agree with the last part you said. It's like putting a Rhodes Scholar in a remedial reading class and telling them to study together. As I said long ago he had no other adults to work with...even though Erika is faking it, and working the flying under the radar thing big time. |
Maris | Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 12:26 pm     The problem is if the Rhodes Scholar cant adapt in a remedial reading class he fails. It doesnt matter what his abilities are, he is failing at the one that counts, working with what he has been given. An excuse of well he is dealing with children is just as weak as Dana's argument that she was working with a bunch of suck-ups. Neither one of them were willing to change their game and that means, sayonara. He could still pull something out but he needs to cut the strings with Erika, approach Justin towards the end of his reign, offer him a deal for the upcoming week. He needs to tell Justin that he will go after Ali and Jun and get Justin and the boys on board with him. He needs to cut his ties with Erika because she is deadweight too. Its time for Jack to step up to the plate and play the game. Tell Erika its every man for himself which she shouldnt have a problem with because she instantly agreed not to use the pov on Jack. Get friendly with Jee. Get rid of that superior attitude fast. |
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