** Hard Ball in the BB House **
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TV ClubHouse: ARCHIVES: Big Brother USA 2003 General Discussions Part 1: ** Hard Ball in the BB House **

Tobor7

Monday, August 11, 2003 - 09:25 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Bohawkins inspired me to describe what I would call the TOBOR GAMBIT…

The Dat Phan3 (oops sorry, wrong show…) the Jee3 have a major opportunity now. But they have to play real HARD BALL in the game. They have an advantage now and they have to press it. In my scenario, Justin would have to lead the charge.

Thrust#1: In light of Nate’s offer to join the Jee3, they should make him put his hand on his bible and swear to the three of them that he (Nate) will do whatever they tell him to do to prove his loyalty. IF he does this, they will keep him in the game.

Thrust#2: First thing they have Nate do is to NEVER have a conversation alone with anyone else in the house unless one of the Jee3 is present. If he does… he goes to hell.

Thrust#2: Justin gives his HoH room to Jack. Tells Jack that they will save him if he agrees to (1) never put the Jee3 up until everyone else if gone. (2) Jack can’t talk to anyone else alone unless one of the Jee3 is present. (Especially Erika.)

Thrust#3: Robert vetos Jack, and Justin puts Erika up. With Jack segregated in the Hoh room, the rest of the house will think he made a deal to get saved. Nate is still in check. If Nate fails, they can still vote him out.

Thrust#4: To find out where Ali falls, they tell Nate to confide in Ali that Jack’s deal was he would be saved but he would have to put up Ali and Nate if he won hoh. Nate knows that Jack is going to go back on his word… but not to tell the Jee3. (More but I’ll keep it short.) Nate tells Ali to keep it to herself. IF Ali does not go back to Justin and tell him this, then he knows that she can’t be trusted.

When all is said and done, Erika will be gone. The other groups will be cold and both Nate and Jack will owe the Jee3. If one of them wins hoh again, they can push it further. If not, they are still sitting good.

Anyone else have anything to add to this plan?

Bohawkins

Monday, August 11, 2003 - 09:28 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Tobor7, this is fascinating. I am headed out to the cinema now, but I will think on this and post some observations tomorrow.

Jhezzie

Monday, August 11, 2003 - 09:29 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Please, don't mention "Dat" name here! I'm still miffed that he won...

Tobor7

Monday, August 11, 2003 - 09:33 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Sorry, I was looking for a cheap laugh at someone's expense. (I actually thought the big guy was funnier in the final standups-- but I liked Dat through the show.)

Omegabubbles

Monday, August 11, 2003 - 09:39 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Oh I like Datphan, but wanted Rich Voss to win. I really hated Ralphie May.

Tobor7

Monday, August 11, 2003 - 09:56 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I have other thoughts for my GAMBIT as far as Jun is concerned. She should be assigned to keeping an eye on Jack. One of the keys is to never let Ali, Jun, Jack, Erika or Nate the time to spend alone with each other. No one-on-one time... no plots!

Meggieprice

Monday, August 11, 2003 - 10:07 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Well, veto happened yesterday, or more to the point, did not happen. So that part, at least, is not possible.

Tobor7

Monday, August 11, 2003 - 10:43 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I know Meggie. I was thinking of this days ago... thought it was too complex to explain... but Bohawkins inspired me to give it a try.

Do you think Nate would swear on the bible? or fold at the request?

Lancecrossfire

Monday, August 11, 2003 - 11:57 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Tobor--I say Nate does swear on the bible. Why? Because if he doesn't he is out Wednesday. If he odes, he's in for at least one more week, and as the saying goes, anythiong can happen. But for it to happen, he has to be in the game.

And they aren't playing for 3-in-1 oil--they are going after 500K. And more importantly, he is playing for more face time on mational TV, and in the homes of millions of people.

Tobor7

Tuesday, August 12, 2003 - 12:35 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I agree Lance. If asked, he would put his hand on the book. This is the one thing they can use to keep him in line. Now, he did say to Justin, "I swear to God..." something when he was making his pitch. Justin should have told him to get his bible... and keep it handy.

Tobor7

Tuesday, August 12, 2003 - 03:42 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Now, there is another part to this. Justin would have to get Jee alone without any mics for just 30 seconds... I have an idea to do it. Will explain tomorrow. (Any guesses?)

Seamonkey

Tuesday, August 12, 2003 - 04:04 am EditMoveDeleteIP
If they keep Nate in the house, Nate and Ali are going to lie their way to the end and the entire jury will refuse to vote. I heard Nate throwing out the idea that if he won he'd be grateful and share the wealth (with Jee3).

Nate sounds like a whiney pre-teen boy whose friends have started being interested in girls and he still sees them as evil beings who "get between Dudes".

I think in his alternate universe, the evil women have lured him with the apple and now he's being evicted from Eden.

Bohawkins

Tuesday, August 12, 2003 - 04:15 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I agree that when Nathan said "I swear to God" that statement provided a distinct opportunity. The Bible should have been produced and perhaps a more specific oath could have been constructed. His display of his Bible reading should have been used to an advantage to hold him to a promise.

However, Nathan might have done such a thing with no intention of keeping it because his regionally influenced interpretation of the principles of Christianity would give him assurance that any act is forgivable and subsequently his imortal soul would be in no real danger. He most likely is one of those who feel they can break any promise or tell any lie and just ask for forgiveness later.

Alternatively, he might choose not to swear at all. In fact, if he is a real student of the New Testament and the teachings of Jesus, he might have been influenced by what is often referred to as the "Second Commandment of Jesus," in which He says not to swear on anything as an oath, to wit:

"But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool... Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil."

However, I am thinking that Nathan is someone who merely makes a show of his Bible reading (based on his overtly crude playing footsie with Michelle's private parts) and that he would have no knowledge that Jesus taught against such a swearing.

The rest of the gambit seems to have partial validity. A strong deal could be made with Jack, but certainly not if they have made the deal with Nathan. For Jee3 to make conflicting promises with the two current nominees without inviting consequences is certainly wishful thinking. One of Justin's strengths has been that he has been forthright. He must maintain that and keep his promises genuine.

I don't think Jack would make any deal that would not include Erika since they both fancy each other. Further, Jack is not a child and would not have any interest in the HOH room, so that part of the offer would not be a factor. Jack would, however, be willing to make some kind of deal right now, and I think that absent a deal with Nathan that Jee3 should certainly take the opportunity to at least neutralize Jack and Erika for the next round.

Concerning Alison, I think that they already know that Alison is not to be trusted after they have seen her disloyalty in not campaigning to save Nathan. Having Nathan tell Alison anything as a test would backfire, because since she is a player and she most likely would have reported it back to the Jee3, revealing nothing.

So out of all of the ideas you have advanced, I think that the one with the most merit is simply a deal with Nathan having him swear loyalty on his Bible, simply because of Nathan's being someone who makes a show of religion and he wouldn't want the folks back home to see him break any promise made that way.

Seamonkey

Tuesday, August 12, 2003 - 04:39 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Personally I think that Justin was being straightforward but now is playing games with Jun and Ali involved in the shuffle and I think he'd like to see himself with Ali at the end, thinking that he'd win (Dana, Jee, Robert, Jun and possibly Nate and even Jack/Erika since Ali would have betrayed all of them by the end.)

Justin is also playing the "I don't mind not winning, or going out" game but yesterday started in on the heavy guilt trip he's putting on Jun/Robert/Jee about how HE is the one with the biggest target on his back which is why he is tempted to keep Nate. Of course Jun actually has more of a target on her from all sides and I think Justin sees using Nate and Ali to accomplish his final goal.

Tuesday/Wednesday should be very high stress as time passes and people aren't called in to vote because Ali will continue playing Nate and Nate will continue groveling..

Perpetual Pity Party.

Tobor7

Tuesday, August 12, 2003 - 04:40 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Lots of good stuff Bohawk. (I hope you enjoyed your movie.)
I've had a few beers and about to go to bed... so I'll properly address your concerns tomorrow.

Quickly-- Jack would not have a choice to take the hoh room. He would be made to. He would not be able to have a private convo with any others. With Erica gone, he would be an island-- plus look bad for staying in the hoh room.

More on this tomorrow.

Thanks.

Tobor7

Tuesday, August 12, 2003 - 04:44 am EditMoveDeleteIP
In my gambit, Nate and Ali would not be allowed to talk alone. So he would not be able to spout a word of pity. With all Nate's pledges on the bible, he would become Justin's prison bi**h. (Images of OZ flash through my head.) The producers would love it. Some REAL plot.

Ruditoo

Tuesday, August 12, 2003 - 06:49 am EditMoveDeleteIP
When Jack was up for eviction before, Erika' was one of the 2 votes to evict him.

Just a little food for thought.

Kaili

Tuesday, August 12, 2003 - 06:59 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Sure she did, but that was when the choice was between Jack and David- when it comes down to Jack and Nathan, I can't see her choosing Nathan over Jack. It was a different situation.

Bohawkins

Tuesday, August 12, 2003 - 07:43 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Kaili, of course, you are dead right. Erika and Jack have a romance percolating.

Plus, I can tell you are a smart gal based on your choice of music... you and I have similar musical tastes... check it out.

Buggles

Tuesday, August 12, 2003 - 10:53 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Ugh... I don't know where else to vent this & this seems like the most appropriate thread.

Is anyone else thinking it is REALLY dumb of Ali, Nate & Jun to try to ride the coattails of J3? It should be obvious to them that those guys have a very tight loyal alliance & if they help keep it alive those three will be the last guys standing.

If all of the NON-J3 people joined forces & actually stayed as loyal to each other as J3... then J3 would be outnumbered & other HGs would actually have a shot at winning. But instead, people are floating over to J3 when they have to KNOW that they will NEVER make it to the end that way... after Erika & Jack are gone, J3 will eliminate the newbies to their little clan, one by one.

Maybe Ali, Jun & Nate are just making deals with J3 to survive the moment but I really think they should be opting for a steadfast alliance with Jack & Erika... all of the non-J3 people should be recognizing now that NONE of them has a chance at the $$$ if J3 stays alive. They are only treading water this way... if they float to the monster for a ride, they will never make it safely to shore.

Tobor7

Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 12:41 am EditMoveDeleteIP
The Jee3 had the major chance to go for the kill this week. It would have been heavy bully tactics that they seem reluctant to use.
Imagine if they said to Jack and Nate at the nom ceremony:
"You 2 are up. The first person to open his mouth anytime in the next week is the one who goes. No talking to anyone. Both of you. Let's see how bad you want to stay."
Hard Ball baby!

Bigsister

Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 07:17 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Buggles said "If all the non J3 people joined forces & actually stayed as loyal to each other as J3, then J3 would be outnumbered & other HGs would have a shot at winning."

Exactly!! Why hasn't some HG caught on to that?? Don't they see how powerful J3 is, simply because they stick together? Can't the HGs figure out that they could do the same thing, and there are MORE of them? So far, that is. They are frittering away their chances. I would Love to see another powerful alliance emerge to vie with J3. Instead it looks like they are going to be picked off one by one.

Demsome

Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 07:33 am EditMoveDeleteIP
OMG Tobor!! That is the best suggestion I have heard. Like first one to speak is a monkey for a week! Lets get the game Onnnnnn!

Tobor7

Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 02:19 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
It would be hard for the others to band together against the Jee3. Jun and Ali are deserters. They are not to be trusted. Erika & Jack would take them in, but they wouldn't trust them.
The Jee3 has some element of trust on their side. They also each have an Ex w/a secret deal. (Well maybe not Robert.)
That is a team of 3, each with an outsider watching their back. Jack does not have this. He will go after Nate. Robert will not fight to keep Erika as hard as Justin or Jee will fight to keep their EXs.
We may see some interesting deals during the HOH comp if it is an endurance one. No players should ever leave game field and allow the others left to talk alone.

Seanflynn2003

Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 02:41 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
OK, not really relevant, but since swearing oaths and how to do so is has been discussed here...

The word "testify" comes from the same root as "testicles"

Why? Because in Rome often men who were trying to prove their honesty would swear on what they held to be most important -- yup, you got it.

No Bible, mother, family, country, honor -- instead, what they thought was the center of their universe.

Bonzacat

Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 02:42 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Sean - who knew?

Buggles

Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 02:57 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
You're right Tobor... from Jack's point of view he is kind of screwed because all of the non-J3 players are totally untrustworthy. Still, maybe his best bet would be to try to point out this logic (J3 vs. non-J3) to the others(??) Of course, they would be too dumb & scared plus it will all get back to J3... but Jack will clearly be toast anyway if J3 stands so what does he have to lose.

Isn't it interesting how the most loyal players in the house (J3) sort of fell into that alliance by circumstance? Whereas last year, Jason & Dani sort of 'found each other?' Having an early LOYAL alliance with the right right person/people obviously can take a person very far in this game... but I suppose that's not an easy thing to do. If you align yourself with someone who gets eliminated early then you're screwed then too, and how can you predict who will become a target for whom? Or who will win HoH or PoV for that matter? It's really a crapshoot in some ways.

Sorry for rambling!!

Tobor7

Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 03:52 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Buggles--
Jack should not have said that he would give his word and then go back on it to Erika-- or any of the others. If just shows that his word means nothing... and if he would lie to one, he could lie to any or all. Much better to say (even to Erika), "If I give my word, then I will have to keep it."
Trust is a big factor in this game, and with trust comes paranoia. Jack should see that Erika has done nothing for him but talk to him. She voted against him, and she killed his chance for winning Quoridor. YET, he didn't say anything to her about it. I understand if Jack won POV, and took himself off then Erika would go up... but still.. it is one thing throwing a comp-- another hindering one on your team.

Buggles

Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 04:02 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Tobor, points well taken!! I would have thought that Jack would be smarter about lying in the house. You're right that his hands are not clean.

I also thought it was a big mistake for Jack to align himself with Erika from the get-go, as she clearly (to me) never seemed like she would be loyal to anyone but herself. But of course they were roomies & had the bond of being 'elders' in the house so it was only natural I suppose.

It's very difficult to realign midway in the game w/o being branded 'untrustworthy' and even if you do, you're still at the disadvantage of not having as strong of a bond with your new alliance members as they do with each other.

I know that Jack has said recently that he wishes he had aligned himself with Justin early on, but of course when the game began, Justin & the rest of J3 looked like goners.

Meggieprice

Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 04:07 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I think there is another factor keeping Ali and Jun from doing the obvious and aligning with J/E- they don't want to hang out with them! They like being with the brat pack. Once they throw in with the other two the J3 hanging out will be over and I don't think they will be able to bring themselves to do it.

Tobor7

Wednesday, August 13, 2003 - 04:36 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Yup Meg. Maybe I agree. People seem to want to have a good time AND win. Playing Hard Ball pays big but costs big. It would be fun to see someone playing outside the box-- not just slide by.