Archive through August 18, 2003
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TV ClubHouse: ARCHIVES: Big Brother USA 2003 General Discussions Part 1: Does One HG Deserve The Win Over Another?: Archive through August 18, 2003

Wendo

Monday, August 18, 2003 - 01:05 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Jack and Jee talking on the back porch just now. Obviously discussing tactics when the numbers get lower. Jee pointing out that once one "two" member alliance is gone (either Jee/Robert or Jack/Erika) the one remaining joining with the other "two" to get rid of the two floaters.

Jee started talking about how Jun and Ali hadn't "earned" it to go to the finals and, therefore, don't "deserve" to win. Jack agreeing; but you never know what he believes.

Now, just because Jun and Ali chose to float, does that mean they don't deserve a shot at the final two? That they haven't "earned" it according to Jee's requirements? (Which, to him, means scrapping and fighting to stay in the house.) I mean, it's not like Jun and Ali haven't worked hard in the game.

It just riles me to hear people saying one person "deserves" the money over another. Jee said the same last night about Jun to Ali, and Ali agreed.

Hello HG's! Everyone in that house earned the right to be there by making it in the finals and each deserves to win.

Anyway, do you agree or disagree with Jee's view?

I do not. :)

Hobbs

Monday, August 18, 2003 - 01:17 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
As far as I'm concerned, whoever wins it, deserves it. No matter what you do to get you there, you did it and it worked, so you deserve it.

Crossfire

Monday, August 18, 2003 - 01:21 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I am a big believer in the concept that whoever wins, deserved it. One way or another, they put together the winning package, or at worse did not play the losing game.

Hobbs

Monday, August 18, 2003 - 01:25 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
If Jee feels someone doesn't deserve the win, then he should win HOH and vote them out. Simple concept.

Weinermr

Monday, August 18, 2003 - 01:29 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I agree. This comes up all the time. In my opinion, the one who wins is the one who deserves to win. Not necessarily the one I WANT to win.

The winner is the winner.

Hobbs

Monday, August 18, 2003 - 01:31 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Unless it's American Idol.

Hee-hee. Just trying to rile up the Ruben fans.

Mystery

Monday, August 18, 2003 - 01:33 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
The "whoever wins, deserved it" argument begs the question a little bit, I think. It seems to me that Wendo is asking if anyone agrees with Jee's argument that certain behavior within the house entitles a person to the victory (so we're looking at "deservedness" before the victory and not looking back from the victory to try to decide if the ultimate winner deserved to win).

I disagree with Jee's argument because I think that "floaters" take the risk of being picked off by whichever team is in charge at a particular moment, so their strategy is just as risky as the strategy of sticking with one team from the beginning.

Crazydog

Monday, August 18, 2003 - 01:41 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I disagree with Jee. There is no particular advantage or disadvantage to floating. The benefit of being in an alliance is that you know you are safe, the danger is that you will be targeted when the other alliance gains power. Lisa pretty much floated after the Chiara/Roddy betrayal. She joined Danielle/Jason but it was pretty clear to us at least that she was just using them. Winning this game is all about using people to get you to the final two.

Jee is all about him and Robert deserving it. Everyone else doesn't deserve it. When it comes down to it, he is going to say that Jack and Erika don't deserve it because they didn't go through as much danger as the Stooges did after Michelle was booted. Shut up Jee.

Kaili

Monday, August 18, 2003 - 01:43 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Just out of curiosity- does everyone who feels that whoever wins deserved to win think that Lisa "deserved" to win over Dani last year? Did she deserve to win because she was more gentle in her Diary Room comments?

I do think that anyone who makes it to the end probably did something right, and if that person didn't make too many enemies (or made less than their opposition), then they probably should win. That would mean they got to where they needed to be without having the people they helped evict completely turn on them.

But look at it this way too, did Amanda "deserve" to be voted out the first week? Did David "deserve" to be voted out because Nathan saved Alison? The first evictions can have a huge impact later on in the game. What if Jee had been voted off when he was nominated- there would be no Jee3 right now. I don't think it's all about deserving- some of it is just luck and how the cookie crumbles.

Lancecrossfire

Monday, August 18, 2003 - 02:11 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I agree with what others have said to thsi point. Different things work for different people. Part of the game is 1) knowing what kind of game you can best play and 2) figuring out what others will allow as far as how the game is played.

Some respect the up front approach, some respect telling you what you want to hear--it's part of the game that is pretty hard to figure out.

Jun and Ali have chosen to play both sides--and there are risks with doing so--just as there are risks with clearly alligning yourself with someone.

Spear

Monday, August 18, 2003 - 02:12 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I agree Kaili, there is luck involved so I don't believe the winner is always the one who was most deserving. There's also the "unexpected" twists that they throw in. They may be good for us viewers but they suck from a gameplay point of view because you can't form a strategy that will take into account all possible twists in the game. (Look at the extreme case of "Paradise Hotel" where it seems that the rules are made up as they go along.)

That said, I feel that Dani didn't deserve the win last year because she knew that her DR comments would be seen by the jury. She could have taken that into account and kept her mouth shut without affecting her strategy. Boring, but that's how she needed to play BB3. What she did would have worked this year.

I also feel that Jee is wrong in that floaters are undeserving. However, it would also be wrong to use a floating strategy if you think the jury members will view that as "backstabbing" and will vote emotionally (which seems to be the case with this bunch of people).

I guess that to get jury votes, you can afford to be on the opposite team as people who won't take things personally and who will appreciate good gameplay. You want to be on the same side as people who think "loyalty" is so important.

Xarph

Monday, August 18, 2003 - 03:00 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
"does everyone who feels that whoever wins deserved to win think that Lisa "deserved" to win over Dani last year?"

Absolutely. Lisa deserved this win. Remember final three final HOH?

The first round was the holding the key in water tank HOH. Jason had a blond moment and let go of the key. Dani had reached her physical limits and had to get out. Lisa was clearly good to go for much longer. Lisa won round 1 fair and square.

Jason won round two. It was a silly thing of household chores.

Lisa and Jason competed in round three. Lisa knew her fellow houseguest better than Jason. Lisa won the final HOH. She won it fair and square because she simply did better than Dani or Jason.

It was not so much the DR entries that made Lisa the winner over Dani. It was their personalities. Dani did a vicious and nasty behind-the-back name calling and back stabbing while in the house. Dani carried that personality into the DR. Lisa was smart and sweet while in the house. Lisa carried that personality into DR.

Csnog

Monday, August 18, 2003 - 03:35 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Dani played a better game than Lisa but the DR was her downfall. Most of the HG's when asked by Julie who should win, said Dani.

Because of the DR AND the so-called telephone campaingn from Roddy she lost. Thus we now have sequestering of the jurors this year.

Crazydog

Monday, August 18, 2003 - 03:45 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I do believe that Lisa deserved it. She kicked butt in that final HoH. In addition, I firmly believe that Danielle threw that round 2 competition. She didn't want to go up against Lisa in the final round. In the event that she won, she didn't want to have to break the promise to Lisa to take her to the finals. So she wanted Jason to win HoH and boot Lisa. To the end, Danielle was all about getting other people to do her dirty work.

So yes, Lisa deserved it. And I don't believe that Roddy had any influence. Everyone voted against Danielle because she alienated them on her own accord. I think even if HGs had been sequestered, she would have won.

For Lisa: Eric, Roddy, Chiara, Tonya, Josh, Lori
For Danielle: Jason, Gerry, Amy, Marcellas

Even if Josh voted for Dani, America would have chosen Lisa in a landslide.

Crossfire

Monday, August 18, 2003 - 03:46 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
CSNOG: Hmmmm...maybe, that is one version of events.

I don't believe it is the one that would be supported at least publicly by the previous players though.

Csnog

Monday, August 18, 2003 - 03:54 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Lisa didn't get into playing the game until the vote to let Amy in over Eric.

We (America) might have voted for Lisa if we had a chance but I still think that Dani played a great game except for the Gerry event and the DR.

Xarph

Monday, August 18, 2003 - 03:55 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
This year Roddy would not have to conduct a telephone campaign. He would have been free to work his mind coitus on his fellow sequestered HGs.

You can bet your Real Super Pass on the fact the conversations among the sequestered are going to have a big influence on thier final vote. As each not HG comes into the sequester house, he or she will have his or her own story about what happened before and after the previous HGs were evicted. What they tell may or not be true. What they say will be consequential. I do not believe that previous alliances will have that great of an effect on the jury vote.

Amari

Monday, August 18, 2003 - 03:55 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I don't think the "who deserves to win" question can ever really be answered. It's so subjective.
What I really hate is when these so-called juries can't get even a little past their own little snits, hurt feelings, jealousies, etc. and at least try to be fair about who they choose. I also heard Roddy did a phone campaign against Danielle and I refuse to believe a man of his intellect, sophistication, etc. would be that angry that she called him a devil. I think it was nothing but sour grapes because she managed to outmaneuver him. I really liked Survivor Tina's final speech before the vote when she said (pp) if during the game you got your feelings hurt, I hope you won't let it affect your vote. We were all out here trying to win a million dollars and we all had to use the strategy best for us (end of pp). If you make it to the final 2, that's a major accomplishment and I think it would be really refreshing to hear a juror say something like, I gave it a lot of thought and my vote goes to ___ because he/she overcame a lot of obstacles (i.e., nominations, etc.)/won the key competitions/formed a strategy and stuck with it/etc. Anything but you called me a name, you betrayed me, you betrayed my friend ad nauseum. JMO.

Xarph

Monday, August 18, 2003 - 03:59 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Csnog, did you see Dani tell Amy that if she had anything to say about Amy, she would say it to her face?

Did you hear Dani cruely cutting Amy down behind Amy's back both before and after her promise to Amy?

This is but one example of many of Dani's monsterous acts that the live feed veiwers witnessed.

Csnog

Monday, August 18, 2003 - 04:13 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
When Amy was asked by Julie upon her eviction "Who do you think deserves to win?" Amy said Dani.

Yes we saw a different Dani but the HG's didn't until they were evicted.

The question is and should be who played a better game and made it to the final 2. Not who was nice and sweet.

I am not a fan of Dani but I did think that she played a better game than Lisa from the begining while Lisa didn't get into it until 1/2 way through it.

Crossfire

Monday, August 18, 2003 - 04:22 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Amy changed her mind about wanting Dani to win real quick. She was quite upset by the things that transpired that she was unaware of.

Csnog

Monday, August 18, 2003 - 04:28 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Exactly!!!

The HG's were unaware of what Dani was like until they were evicted and went home until the vote.

AS must have had some thought on it also because this year the evicted HG's are sequestered.

Amari

Monday, August 18, 2003 - 04:28 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Of course Amy changed her mind. She got her feelings hurt - Dani lied to her; Dani said mean things about her - never mind trying to figure out who played the game best. It's all about me.

Crossfire

Monday, August 18, 2003 - 04:30 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Everybody remember this:


Quote:

Fri Sep 20 18:13:57 2002
64.12.96.237

I got a quick email from Amy!!! (inside)
Author: Willow - Thanks for the fun Amy! (209.83.129.9)
Date: 09-20-02 15:52

(It's a quickie, but wanted to share since she didn't tell me not to!)


Hi it's me!

I haven't had a chance to get a good look at everything yet, but THANK YOU!!! THANK YOU!!!! THANK YOU!!!!!! I love all of you!!

I stayed up all night watching the tapes. I've only seen 10 shows, but that is enough to know that DANIELLE IS THE DEVIL!!! Her horns are sharp and pointy!!!!! I have to watch more tapes now, but I will write again soon. I'm on my friend's computer, so this is not my address. As soon as I get it back up and running I'll let you know!!!!

THANK YOU!!! THANK YOU!!! THANK YOU!!!
Amy




That was no phone campaign. :)

Joylaw20

Monday, August 18, 2003 - 04:32 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Perhaps I have missed it, but I haven't noticed any mention this year of anyone deserving to win because they need the money more.