Archive through August 25, 2003
MoveCloseDeleteAdmin

TV ClubHouse: ARCHIVES: Big Brother USA 2003 General Discussions Part 1: Allison is playing the worst game: Archive through August 25, 2003

Woodpecke®

Monday, August 25, 2003 - 11:04 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Erika is playing the worst game. She had Jee in the cage and didn't make a deal to save herself from nomination. She gets put up the very next week. Dumb.

Jan

Monday, August 25, 2003 - 11:11 am EditMoveDeleteIP
My ex who is a good person and kind and funny and manipulative (the Will clone) is an excellent liar. He says the secret is to always believe what you are saying is the real truth. You don't have to believe it for long..just for the time you are having the conversation. He says too many people lie and are conscious that what they are saying is not the truth. If you really believe it is the truth when you say it, then you will sound extremely believeable.

and believe me, I can tell you from vast experience at the receiving end, it does work.

C1mag

Monday, August 25, 2003 - 11:13 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Ahh yes the good ol Will "myth" I didn't buy it when he was on the show and I don't all these years later. He didn't manipulate one single person in the house. His looks kept him in the game and when Nicole took her hand off the key on the bed he found a way to get to the end. Prior to that he didn't have a chance at that money. Even he had thought he had lost the larger amount of money with that RIDICULOUS speech he gave at the end. He was crude, rude, and just as crass and in the end got VERY lucky that Kent couldn't handle the control that Nicole and Hardy had on the game so to get even with Nicole he voted for Will. Bunky summed it up perfectly when he didn't vote for Will. He said, "I'm not buying this whole master of the game garbage" I felt the same exact way. He got lucky and in the end that whole master of the game myth became much bigger than what he ever was in reality. The man didn't even lie brilliantly. They were stupid little lies that had no significance in the game. So was he a liar or a bored B.Ser? Take a pic I'd go with the second one but it had no weight in the outcome of the game and when exactly did he look at the complete house and say, "I'm a liar?" or was that when he was safe and sound in the D.R. and played it up all alone? Yeah thats brilliant. Hahahaha! The truth.. Had Nicole won the key challenge on the bed Will would have went home and Nicole and Hardy would have cruised to a finals finish. He was a safe bet to carry and lose in the end but it backfired when she took her hand off the key. He did nothing to make that happen. It was dumb luck. If Will had been in season two Dani would have had him out in about a month at the most. No brilliance there. Now as for Ali...

She has played the "me" card to perfection. She is allowed to lie and allowed to backstab. The rules clearly state that. There are two games. one is to get to the end. The second is to address the jury and explain why you did what you did based on the rules and then challenge each voter with the realistic thought that this is not a journey in ethics and if you helped walk them to the door then you beat them. If by chance they can't be adult about the fact that you beat them because they got duped then remind them that you were there to the end and that the amount of money will not determine who is the winner or the loser. Both finalists are winners. They made it to the end. At this point in the game I would not be thinking about who the jury would vote for. Get their first based on the rules and then lay it out articulately in your speech to the jury. It's simple. You played based on the rules. You beat them based on their rules and then challenge them not to be hypocrites. If they can't handle it you still walk away with a lot more money than them.

Woodpecke®

Monday, August 25, 2003 - 11:23 am EditMoveDeleteIP
C1 Mag pegged Will perfectly. He existed for most of the game because he was always thought to be "expendable later". He wasn't a great player, and he nearly threw it all away on the final night with his selfish speech. While I'm on the subject of past BB's, Marcellas was easily the most offensive houseguest I have watched in BB history. His rude comments are legendary to anyone who followed this game. He was totally without class; a spoiled brat and very immature. Hard to believe his chronological age is 35.

Onlyhuman

Monday, August 25, 2003 - 11:25 am EditMoveDeleteIP
C1- the rules do not state that just by getting to the end, you win. The rules are that you get to the end AND you get the evicted HGs to vote for you to win the money. The game is not over when you make the finals. The game is over after the final votes are announced. Anyone who claims that they should win simply because the others are out of the house does not have a true grasp on what winning this game means. You have to give people a reason to WANT to give you the money.

The thing that is sometimes lost when considering jury votes is the need for people to feel GOOD about the person for whom they are voting. These people have all played this game and they have all lost. In order to accept their loss, they have to believe that it's okay, because a "good" person won.

This year's repeated theme has been honor and loyalty. Whether or not we see it that way, the 3 HGs who are currently on the jury all believe that they played with honor and loyalty. Jack, Jee, Robert and Erika will no doubt claim the same thing about themselves. In sequestering, they will continually reinforce this impression, wanting to bolster their self-esteem after the hit it took from losing the game.

So will any of them be able to feel good about voting for a person who they think is dishonorable? In my opinion...NO.

That is why it will be so tough for Ali if she's in the finals. She will try to claim that she has played honorably and with loyalty, and she'll blame others for her actions. No doubt she will cry and whine and try to accuse the others of being mean to her.

No matter what happens this week, she has to betray a side to whom she has made a firm commitment. There is no way that Rob & Jee will give her their vote after that point. As good of a move as it might be for her at this moment, it's a bad move overall, given the tone of the house.

In the end, the very thing that keeps Ali alive in this house, her lying, will keep others from giving her the grand prize. For that reason, I think she is playing a bad game, unless she is only playing for $50,000.

I'm sure the jury members will face all kinds of accusations of pettiness and bitterness if Ali does not win. But really, playing the best game means you know and understand the house dynamic and you use it to stay in the house AND convince others to vote for you. You can lie and cheat and backstab all you want but there is nothing that says people MUST give you their votes just because you do so.

C1mag

Monday, August 25, 2003 - 11:35 am EditMoveDeleteIP
So Only human you are a loser if you went the distance to the final 2 and you don't get the larger amount of money? Not at all. Part one of the game is a completed journey when you make it to the final round. It's like I said. There are two game in BB. Getting to the end and then taking on the jury. If you are saying that the rules declare you are not victorious if you make it to the final 2 then what I said about the rules allowing for betrayl and lies favors anyone who lies or backstabs because the rules allow for this type of play. In fact in this game it it encouraged.

I also disagree that you must kiss someones behind throughout the game in order to seccure a vote from the jury early on. I do think you can win the whole game at the end even after you have betrayed and backstabbed them. I'd love to see that challenge played out. It would be icing on the cake and even if a bunch of sore losers couldn't hand the larger amount over the fact remains. You made it to the end and they didn't. That is victory. Not defeat.

I still think that you can do an incredible challeng to the jury when you address them in the end. The lies that Ali has told in order to get her to the end can be covered. They wouldn't like the lies if it duped them but then challenge this so called "ethical character" that the loser camp always adopts after they are booted. If they really have any character they would aknowledge the rules allowed betrayl and lying and since you beat them to the end and if you authored their defeat then as a person of good character and suggested good sportsmanship they would suck it up and vote for the better player. I honestly think you can challenge a wounded and defeated player who goes after the ethics crap.

Tobor7

Monday, August 25, 2003 - 11:45 am EditMoveDeleteIP
These people are all about self-interest also. They all want a Hollywood career. They all want to "brush" with the money even if they don't win it. If there are 2 close or equal people at the end... they will vote for who they can hang out with. The game has nothing to do with anything at that point.

Will didn't need the money. He was about to be a Doctor. He was smart. He played for fun and made it fun. He had star quality. He annoyed the others and kept them off balance. He was far superior intellectually to all the others, and in that mix, his personality was his best asset. And I thought he caused Nicole to let the key go by pulling the blanket off her legs.

Forgetting the game--- of all the 4 shows, I would like to have dinner with only 3 HGs-- the rest I could care less. (Will, Roddy, Jack)
If I were to hire any one of them for anything? I would hire Roddy.

C1mag

Monday, August 25, 2003 - 11:46 am EditMoveDeleteIP
OH and don't be too surprised if someone like Jack who knows the difference between "the game" and real life doesn't award someone like Ali with the grand prize. She played it with no morals but she duped them all if she makes it to the end and jack would say to her, "excellent move, and good job Ali" and for the record right now they all should just be playing for 50k. The larger amount will be won when you address the jury.

Tobor7

Monday, August 25, 2003 - 11:49 am EditMoveDeleteIP
If between Ali and Erika, Jack would vote for Erika. (Based on my theory.) At least he would be able to call her up and hang out with her. Why would he care who played the better game. He would want to feel better, and would still want to cast his vote in a way that may better himself in life.

C1mag

Monday, August 25, 2003 - 11:53 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Roddy was very interesting in the game. I loved how he would mirror the person he was talking to in order to make them feel comfortable. Dani had that mans number so fast. Dinner with him huh? That might be interesting but given his desire to spout nothing but intellectual stimuli 24/7 I think he might be a big ol snooze at dinner. I actually think Dana might be a hoot at dinner or someone like Jun. Dana had a horrid game in the house but outside I have this feeling she is a blast. Jun would just be hella funny in general.

C1mag

Monday, August 25, 2003 - 11:55 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Tobor of coarse Jack would give the larger amount to Erika but I don't think Erika is gonna end up there with ali. However, he would definitely tell Ali she played the game outstandng. She chose a different avenue but it was based on the rules.

Onlyhuman

Monday, August 25, 2003 - 11:55 am EditMoveDeleteIP
C1- I don't think that you have to kiss butt through the whole game in order to win. What I do think you need is a group that actually likes you and WANTS you to win the money. The reason that Jee & Robert are so scary to the women is not because they are such strong players but because they formed an alliance and managed to survive the eviction of two others in their alliance without alienating them.

Let's face it, like you said, Will wasn't the greatest game player of all time. What he was was entertaining. He just happened to be in the finals against someone who had betrayed and badmouthed everyone with whom she had made an alliance. Will never once badmouthed "Chilltown", even when it might have been safer for him to go with the flow. By not doing so, he maintained their loyalty AND their votes.

I know everyone claims that Dani lost because of her DR entries, but that wasn't it. Dani had the support of so many evictees when they left the house because they all thought that they had a great relationship with her. However, when they saw how she talked about them to the other HGs behind their backs, they realized that that relationship was all a sham. They could no longer consider her a good person so she didn't get their votes.

You can lie and cheat and backstab as much as you want. But, no one says you HAVE to do so. There is no requirement to betray alliances, break promises or to deliberately badmouth others. What you have to do is form relationships with these people so that they see you as a good choice for a winner. If you can't do that, then you don't deserve to win!

Tobor7

Monday, August 25, 2003 - 11:59 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I like to have a good intellectual talk. I thought Roddy always had something interesting to say about so many things. I liked listening to his convos.

See, I'm the type of guy who doesn't like to go out in groups of more than 4. With too many people around the convo gets trite and it is hard to string 3 sentences together without the subject changing. 4 people can have a good, in depth discussion that can go on all night.
But really I prefer a one-on-one at all times. I'll give 100% attention, and I want 100% back at me.

Tobor7

Monday, August 25, 2003 - 12:02 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Well said Onlyhuman! I agree with you.

C1mag

Monday, August 25, 2003 - 12:03 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
And only human as I pointed out in Danis case it was completely hypocritical of anyone in that group to use the idea of badmouthing any alliance member as a reason to vote in the end. Good lord if badmouthing and alliance member were the reason to hand the money over then Marc would be saying he didn't deserve it and Amy as well. I still think there is a way to get passed those feelings and to be honest that is why this sequestered house is being done this year. They won't see those moments when someone lets off steam about an alliance member. You think that Rob would survive to the larger amount when all the females including Dana hears what he thinks about him? Even if he literally earned his way to the final 2? Your theory says hell no he wouldn't, but I think it would. And there is also no one that says you have to be a pushover and a suckup in order to win. The idea that you must form a solid relationship or you don't deserve the victory is bogus. All you need to do is beat them all to the end and then address that jury and challenge the idea that the goal was to be a buddy and a friend. Get real. I still maintain you can play this sucker out and lie, betray and even badmouth and take that top money amount. All ya gotta do is challenge all those suckers in the end. Challenge them at the core of this so called "ethical approach" Look where it got them if they did play it nice nice which they didn't. They didn't even get close to that money.

Tobor7

Monday, August 25, 2003 - 12:05 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Will also was very creative with his lies. He lied about what certain banners meant. He even lied about what was said in the DR and I think they called him out on it.
When they would try to guess what was going to happen, Will's ideas were so much better than what would happen they had to ask him to stop producing the show. Of course, he didn't.
They really should let Will be one of the show's producers. He had great ideas!

Gina8642

Monday, August 25, 2003 - 12:06 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
If she is playing for second, and she gets it - in my book that makes her sucessful. She will have $20,000 more than anyone else at the end of the game.

C1mag

Monday, August 25, 2003 - 12:13 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Will actually never lied about his role in the game. He said he would play with Hardy and Nicole and he did. His lies were boring lies about his childhood. The banner lies were nothing but guesses. All of us would do that. Once again nothing briliant that caused him to win the game. He got lucky. Nicole took her hand off the key and there was the door to get rid of Hardy. No great game plan there just complete luck. No lie that caused it nor any manipulation. All he did was camp in the D.R and mug for the cameras and talk trash. They edited him because he gave them what they needed for the TV angle. In the house he went along with the tempo of the game and in the end got damn lucky. No master plan. No manipulation.

Tobor7

Monday, August 25, 2003 - 12:14 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
People like to "reward" certain behavior. You want to "send a message" that playing an honest game is to be rewarded, because that is the kind of game you played. There will be more people on the jury that feel that way than will not.
No matter what Ali says at the end (if she gets there), I can't see a one of them that would want to "reward" her for playing that way. They may not like who they vote for, but they will NOT like the way she played, and will not like to encourage others to play it that way by letting her win.

C1mag

Monday, August 25, 2003 - 12:16 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Gina I agree with you. Just getting to the end is a victory in itself. The actual dollar amount is icing on the cake. No matter what amount you walk away with if you beat them all to that final 2 you get the bragging rights that you made it and 11 others didn't and you get at lest 20,000 bucks more than they did. That isn't exactly a loser.

Kalekona

Monday, August 25, 2003 - 12:16 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I think what ali did to nate sealed her fate.

R151996

Monday, August 25, 2003 - 12:16 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
One can honestly think that Ali is not playing the best game (IMO she and Jun are playing the best), but no way she is playing the worst game. Of the six players left the worst game award has to go to Jack--all talk but nothing to back it up with. It could have been totally different if Jack hadn't choked in the last HOH comp, but after Wednesday he'll have plenty of time to reflect at the sequester house.

Tobor7

Monday, August 25, 2003 - 12:18 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
I agree. Will had no master plan. As he said; "If normally I'm dialed up at a 7, in the house I was at a 10.) He was just being himself, and it worked. You can't invent a personality to use to play the BB game. You will fail because you do not have enough practice at it. But if you are yourself, then you are taking your "A" game, and you hope that is good enough to win-- with a good bit of luck.

C1mag

Monday, August 25, 2003 - 12:21 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Tobor it's like I said. The idea that they would want to send some message of Ethics when giving out the larger amount of money can be challenged and it should. This is the main reason they are sequestered this year. It shouldn't be about that at all. Whoever played the game out deserves it the most. Not some coattail rider that sat in a backroom and played nice nice to everyone. I'm sure there will be hurt feelings but that can be challenged. I'd like to see someone really dupe that Jury when they think they are so sure they are not gonna give the money to the harder player who nailed them all. It would be a bust to make them think before they voted. This isn't ethics 101. It was a game. Suck it up and vote for the one that helped defeat you. I'm sure Ali would have a tough time at the end getting the larger amount but if she makes it she played the game out no matter what the dollar amount is. I think the show is getting sick of rewarding the "sweet person" and they are trying so hard to make sure the hardcore player is aknowledged in the game.

C1mag

Monday, August 25, 2003 - 12:27 pm EditMoveDeleteIP
Yep Ali's fate was sealed after she got rid of nate. Definitely. She now has an awesome shot of getting to the end. That is the only goal. The money amount is a crap shoot. She played the competitive pretty boy out of the house and here she is still in the game. It was a brilliant move. Nate doesn't like it but the rules say she can do that. She wasn't there to win Nate or anyone any money other than herself. A year from now they will all be saying, "f" this mr. nice guy routine. I could be at least 20,000 bucks richer right now than I am had I just played the game and not worried about feelings and friendships with complete strangers. What a load.