Archive through August 02, 2003
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TV ClubHouse: ARCHIVES: Big Brother USA 2003 General Discussions Part 1: Nate hate must stop.: Archive through August 02, 2003

Maris

Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 08:55 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I agree with the assessment of Ali. I think Ali is campaigning to get rid of Nathan. She is preparing for the exes getting the HOH next week and she doesnt want to be put up with Nate. Once she heard from Justin that all the exes hate Nathan she started her move. I am guessing she is shooting for a Nate Jack nomination scenario. Once

Nanc

Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 09:00 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Well I AM from Oklahoma and not everyone or even 75% of the people here are racist or homophobic.

I'm about as pinko liberal as they come and I've lived here all my life.

Howver there is a certain culture in places that is hard to work against. This is especially true for sports types who hang with jocks all the time. In that culture are a lot of bible-thumpers too. The Fellowship of Christian Athletes has their tenticles everywhere.

Nate is just a young guy who hasn't been a lot of places. They are a dime a dozen here. He is not a bad guy and I'm sure will mature..as we all do.

I'd appreciate it if the negative comments about Oklahoma would stop. The biggest idiots in our family are some of my husband cousins who are from San Diego, but that doesn't mean that all Californians are uneducated louts.

( Our former black Congressman was JC Watts and he is a hypocrite of the worst kind. His own father said, " JC being a Republican is like a chicken voting for Colonel Sanders")

Maris

Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 09:10 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I am with you on the Oklahoma Bashing Nanc. I recall from 9/11 quite a few Oklahomans came running to New York to pitch in and help us out. There are good and bad people everywhere and they are pretty spread around throughout all the states.

Last night when they were doing their gay bashing Dana piped in we better stop this gay talk or GLADD will be waiting for us when we walk out of here. I thought it was pretty funny.

I dont know that I agree that Nate is the way he is because he isnt worldly.

Idlechitchat

Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 09:10 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Did anyone notice his use of "funner" last night? I thought that was very par for the course for Nathan.

Nanc

Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 09:18 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Maris, I am just saying Nate is the way he is because he doesn't know any better. He has probably never been called on what he says....lol until now.
He's not a hostile or angry racist/homophobe IMO.

Seanflynn2003

Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 09:18 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Nate last night, in a conversation with Robert, said that he would not let his daughter bring a black man home.

That's a racist comment.

I don't hate Nate; I pity him

What555456

Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 09:30 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Based on what Nate has said about himself and about the other HG's, it is clear he thinks he is better than a lot of people. He has the typical ego of a small minded, judgmental person.

Nate is not the way he is because he is not worldly. Nate is the way he is because it is what he has been taught and the way he lives. He is the way he is because he, himself, has made the decision not question what he is taught.

One does not have to come into contact with gays and minorities to recognize that we all deserve respect and dignity.

I get tired of the excuse that people need to travel and actually meet human beings to accept them as human beings. That is so much bullsh*t. They either have an inherent belief that we all all worthy of respect or they do not.

Nate is an adult. He thinks on his own. He does not like gays and blacks. This is his choice because he knows very well there are others who do not share this, but he chooses to stay with this mindset.

I don't hate him. But I have no respect for him. If any hate must stop, it is the type of judgmental hate that Nate and people like him feels for so many human beings. But as long as he hates, he will be hated in return.

Afwife

Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 09:33 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I've lurked here for 3 years now, everyone pretty much covers everything so never saw the need to put in my 2 cents until now. It's just as unfair to charactorize an entire state as it is almost anything else. I'm in Oklahoma and don't hear people talking like this. It may be his upbringing in the home, his religious beliefs since I'm not familiar with them or ? But please don't think that 75% of a state thinks that way. As someone else said, we had JC Watts an African American in congress who would have went far had he not stepped down. My husband is in the military and we've been here in OK for 5 years now. I've been all over and these types of remarks are made in almost every state I've been in. For my first post, I'm probably going to offend but it's just my opinion....I'm not too offended by Nathan's remark that he wouldn't want his daughter bringing home a black man as I've heard all over the US from different African Americans that they wouldn't want a "white" person. It's a huge cultural place on a base and you hear all kinds of preferences all the time....I want to date an asian, I don't want an asian, I want a Latino, etc....And yes, Oklahoma does have gays just like everywhere else. I worked with two in a small place so the 75% of OK thinking, isn't a true statement.
Maybe I just don't get offended because most of what I've heard them talk about is what they want for their kids? I'm in my 40's and have never heard any parent say they wouldn't have a problem if their child was gay or dating so and so. You tend to have high expectations for your children before you have them and when they are small (and then the reality sets in when they are teenagers and you find that you cross your fingers hoping they listened to you). I'm for Jack right now and disappointed that Nathan took Ali as an alliance. I'm not a religious person and thought the malay on the bible was in bad taste. I have to give Nathan credit in these times that he felt comfortable enough to read the bible in front of a bunch of kids his age. He hasn't been under the covers with all the women. I think it's funny that others complain about Nathan but yet there are threads upon threads all over the internet on him putting an "s" at the end of brawn and calling him ignorant. I'm sure in my 40 years I've used a word wrong but then again, not on national tv. What I've seen is that Nathan, Robert and a few others need to quit harping on the gay/black issue, the others need to quit on the ugly/fat/who has a big nose issues. The "I'm going to slap/kill them" remarks. I think it all boils down to this is the most childish group I've ever seen in the house. I have kids in their twenties and none of them say "like/dude/I'm going to slap them". Basically all of these HG's remind me of 7th grade. Ooo you went over and talked the THEM! I can't believe she sat in the hot tub with us? These remarks are consistant with junior high popularity contests. I thought by their twenties and in the real world, they'd have grown out of that. This is the first season I really haven't cared who won.
I saw someone asking on another board if Nathan was raised in a nice area, bad area, etc. I have no clue if that matters to his views however, the city he lives in is one of the nicest suburbs of OKC. The real estate agent tried to sell us a home there when we were being transfered. The houses do run more and it's taunted as having the nicest schools. The few executives and CEO's that I know live there.

Lurknomore

Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 09:35 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Ok...I will preface this by saying that I'm not even sure why we are talking about OK and prejudice, but since we are I will chime in. I have been to most states in America at least once (more for the ones I liked). I was raised Jewish and my last name sounds Jewish or German. I have experienced blatent and repeated acts of prejudice in three states, Texas, LA and OK. Now do I think EVERYONE in those states are prejudiced...of course not. There are intelligent people everywhere, just as there are idiots everywhere.

But I do think there are states, and communities in certain states, where values differ. And I think it's foolish not to realize that there are areas in this country where folks just plain will not like you if you are not white, straight, Christian, and born in America. They still exist :( Heck I experienced nonsense in Boston years ago when I was looking for an apartment with an black girl who was to be my roommate. The potential landlord look straight at my friend and made a big point of saying there is a Mexican upstairs. Is Boston prejudiced? NO...but this idiot was. (Well certain areas in Boston are--but generally not downtown). The problem with idiots is they often tend to congregate just as all groups do..Like attracts like. But bottom line to say these things don't exist in America and some places more than others is, IMHO (love how I add that now every time I give my opinion) is incredibly naive.

BTW as many know here I'm also a Spiritulist now, which holds non-denominational services and believe in both communication with the dead and spiritual healing. We believe in 9 principles, and the main one is "The Golden Rule." You don't even want to KNOW the prejudges and ignorance I've encountered all over the place with this. But I've learned to take this in stride and try to EDUCATE not stick my head in the sand and say it doesn't exist.

Seanflynn2003

Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 09:48 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Afwife, thanks for sharing; your comments are thoughtful and cogent.

If I can disagree with one thing, I do think that someone who says point blank a person of another race -- black, white, Asian, anything -- would not be welcome with his daughter is ipso facto making a racist statement. He is judging the person by his race, not as an individual, and rejecting him because of it. That is racism pure and simple. The fact that it is commonplace makes it no less so.

Spudluvr

Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 09:51 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I heard the conversation that generated this "racist" conversation. It wasn't the first time Nate brought this type of conversation. I got the impression he was probing for views, and wanted a well rounded conversation. I liked the way the conversation went because Jack steered from racism to having such confidence in his daughters judgement tham whomever they bring home must be a good person no matter who they were. I could tell Nathan and Robert were impressed with Jack's response and he handled the situation beautifully. He also talked about an inter-racial couple he knew and that his daughter went to school with their child. That all the way around it was appeared to be a good situation. He (Jack) also talked about Alabama being much more progressive than people think. They also talked a little about raising an interracial child and how hard it would be. I think spending time with people as well rounded as Jack is very good for Nathan and I hope he is taking these conversations to heart. I am a little disappointed in people taking this very insightful conversation and turning it into a hate one. But that is truly what you get when you have hearsay.

Lurknomore

Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 09:56 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Welcome out of lurkdom Alwife!!! Hope you'll stay and play. While I don't agree with everything you said (see the post I was typing at the same time for why lol) I think you raised some very interesting and well expressed points. And I couldn't agree more with the 7th grade anaology! Glad you decided to jump in. Hope you'll stay!

And Spud, this "racist" conversation was all over the board after the show, before the house caught up with us yesterday LOL. Nice of them to join in though, and I gained more respect for Jack for his comments. Funny how they ended up talking about what we were. Of course my feeds weren't up and by the time I pulled them up I missed most of it. Story of my life.

Smokey

Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 09:59 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Interesting conversations in here, and hey, it's even remaining civil.

I don't think that Nate being from Oklahoma has a whole lot to do with his belief system. I think it's his environment, whether it be his parents teachings, or his town or his friends or his church.

What I think needs to be pointed out is the fact that our current administration holds a lot of what Nate believes, to be true. If you really investigate what our president believes, it corresponds. He may not be as blatant about it because he can't. I find a lot of people who feel this way feel much more free to express it because our current government does.

Now--I hope this doesn't spin a big political debate, but felt it needed said.

Ocean_Islands

Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 10:01 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Thanks for speaking up, Afwife! I love it when long-time lurkers come out ....

I think seeing these attitudes portrayed on 'real' television by regular people is like Americans looking in a mirror.

The HGs reveal attitudes that many people have, shortcomings that many have, and emotions that many have.

These all run the gamut ...

And while it might be easy to say 'he's from Oklahoma,' many other bigotted HGs in prior years were from supposedly sophisticated areas, like Eddie, who was from New York. He was very bigotted and made many remarks.

Jun is from New York but she made racial remarks on the show.

I spent some time in Mississippi working and I found it to be much more integrated and have less racial tension than in Boston, where I was living. In Boston I also experienced the most racial tension of anywhere I've ever been.

Karuuna

Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 10:05 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I disagree that racism and prejudice are not learned. They are very much learned. Children at play will play with any other child, whatever their color. It's only after their parents drag them away and tell them they can't play with so-and-so because s/he is <insert prejudice> that children adopt their parents' hateful attitudes.

Case in point, I have a dear friend who was raised by white supremacists. He adopted their point of view, even worked for an underground supremacist newspaper for a few years. Then he went to Nashville (to work on his song writing career) and met a black man who was kind to him and helped him out when he was broke and hungry. He said it was like a light bulb going off in his head, realizing for the first time how wrong his parents were. But even now, 10 years after that experience, he freely admits he still has to fight the hateful thoughts he was filled with growing up.

I don't know Nate's history. But I'm inclined to believe that he was surrounded by folks who think similarly to him. At some point in his life, as he is exposed to new people and new situations, the decision about how to think about other people becomes truly his own. But the indoctrination of our childhood can be a very difficult thing to overcome.

JMO

Lurknomore

Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 10:08 am EditMoveDeleteIP
"Jun is from New York but she made racial remarks on the show."

Actually that's a very good and valid point Ocean. And she's made even MORE on the feeds that never made the show.

But at least she said them, whereas Nate never said he was gay.

But back to this topic, we don't know what communities in NY these folks were from. I was a bit surprised by Eddie and always felt a lot of what he said was for shock value anyway (not that it makes it right). But as I recall he was from Long Island and it's not typically prejudiced there...but then again all it takes is one household, community, circle of friends, or individual poor thinking.

But look at Curtis (I would love to lol) and Cassandra...they were also from NY and I think they were 2 of the more intelligent people ever in BB....especially Curtis :) Then of course we had dear Chiara from NY who just liked snobby people. Guess that's a prejudice too. This is like the worlds biggest onion...we can peel layers away and keep finding more.

Which is why, as I said in the other thread, I think the issue is not prejudices, it's if BB had the right to air something Ali said about another HG with no knowledge of it's veracity.

But some of the posts have made for very interesting reading!

Cricket

Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 10:08 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Very good post, Spudluvr. Yes, Jack handled the conversation well. He said he likes to round out things. He also said that Nate is very willing to listen to other views than his own.

Maris, yep, she is selling Nate out to save herself. When you think about it, it's kind of brilliant. Justin just said she actually told him the truth and by her action of not putting him up, she has drawn him a little to her side. I still don't like her for doing it, but I guess she is playing the game.

Lurknomore

Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 10:11 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Oh my forgot to add why I posted LOLOL....Ocean I lived in a highrise in downtown Boston for 17 years. There were 210 apartments and literally people from all corners of the globe. For many years it was a fascinating place to live and I met some great folks and learned a LOT about different cultures (not to mention got some great recipes lol). There wasn't a shred of racial tension there or in that area. Of course that's why I chose it. But if I lived in Southie or Roxbury it would have been a different story. So I still say a lot boils down to personal choice, areas, etc.

Miggles

Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 10:17 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Afwife, it's not simply Nate's flubbing of brawns/bronze. It's the whole pattern of what he has said to date. Actually, what clinched it for me was when he said he watches Fox News! And I think JC Watts retiring had a lot to do with hitting the glass ceiling in the GOP. The Bush Admin would not return his phone calls, and they cancelled a big weapons program (Crusader) in his district.

Gina8642

Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 10:34 am EditMoveDeleteIP
I think something is being forgotton here. Many people make provacative statements to get conversations going. It doesn't mean they have a deep heartfelt belief in what they said.

We should take everything these folks say with a grain of salt. They are attepting to influence and manipulate their fellow HGs. When everything is taken so literally, I think we lose sight of what is really going on...

Bbfanatic

Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 10:43 am EditMoveDeleteIP
miggles,i watch fox news. i guess you put me in a certain category too. i guess you have me all figured out. kind of like if someone lives in a certain state they must all be a certain way.

Sanfranjoshfan

Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 10:46 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Cp01_Wales - " I like Nate now i wasnt his biggest fab before but after seeing what poison Ali has been saying about him i feel sorry for him. "

The only "poison" was Alison using homophobia to try and turn someone against Nate. Calling someone "gay" is not the poison....losing respect for someone that has been called "gay" is the poison.

I feel sorry of Ali and for anyone that will look down on someone because he was labeled "gay".

I wonder if Ali had told Justin that Nate was Jewish rather than saying he was gay....would that be considered "poison", too?

Squaredsc

Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 10:55 am EditMoveDeleteIP
imo jun's racism is the worst kind and i think stems from self-hatred.

Maris

Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 11:07 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Quote:

I'm in my 40's and have never heard any parent say they wouldn't have a problem if their child was gay or dating so and so.

Unquote

Alfwife, let me be the first parent for you to hear say the words, I have a preteen child and I can categorically say I would have no problem if that child was gay. It doesnt change anything about what a wonderful child my child is.

It wouldnt make any difference to me or to his father. It is just an non issue for us. Race is also not an issue for us. You just want your children to hopefully find a decent person to spend their future with and that they have a happy life. Whatever it takes is fine with me.

Welcome out of lurkdom!!!!

Edited to add: I think we would be more upset if he came home and said Mom and Dad, I am a republican. I swear his father would have a meltdown.

Costacat

Saturday, August 02, 2003 - 11:10 am EditMoveDeleteIP
Costacat pops in to catch up after a morning snooze in the sun, realizes this thread has turned into that "dreaded racism thread that was removed," flicks her tail, and runs like a scalded cat outta there (looking for bellinis!)